Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
It's clear that this debate over browsers and stylesheets isn't going to be resolved, and the discussion is getting acrimonious. I think it's time we take this conversation off-list. ac -- --- Andy Carvin Program Director EDC Center for Media & Community acarvin @ edc . org http://www.digitaldivide.net http://www.tsunami-info.org Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com --- ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
>>Is it too much to ask that folk with older browsers simply turn off style sheets? Yes. Maybe not "too much", but it's the wrong approach. What's wrong with initiatives like the W3C or www.knowbility.org encouraging designers of web sites to make them accessible to all? It's what was done with modern architecture -- instead of just saying, "Hey, you people with disabilities -- get better assistive tools", we said, "Hey, designers, make your building designs more accessible." >>We want to cross the digital divide, right Yes -- so let's focus on educating web designers and promoting initiatives like the W3C, not simply telling people "turn off your style sheets." -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Jayne Cravens Bonn, Germany Services for Mission-Based Orgs www.coyotecommunications.com TECH4IMPACT Newsletter www.coyotecommunications.com/tech4impact.html Open University Development Studies www.coyotecommunications.com/development Contact me www.coyotecommunications.com/contact.html <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
At 6:56 PM +0200 4/21/05, J Cravens wrote: >>Actually, I am rather impressed with blogger.com in this regard. Blogger.com does not work with my machine -- I'm on a Mactintosh, and have three browsers: MS Explorer 5, Netscape 7.0, and Opera 6.3. Blogger.com does not work with any of them -- it will not let me create an account/login. I wrote tech support and their reply: use a different machine with a higher version of MS Explorer or NetScape. So, I certainly won't be recommending blogger.com to anyone. Jayne is absolutely correct. I was infuriated about being told, many times, that blogger.com was "fine" for Macs. It's "fine" for OS X, in I.E. (with glitches in Safari and Firefox). It's not fine on 9.5 and older Macs. I know. I operate three of them ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
In response to Taran Rampersad's diatribe at 17:07 23/04/2005 I find your response patronising and rude and for someone who presumes to quote "Criticize by creating" after their signature baffling. Quite honestly I don't understand why it was distributed on the list, as it just seems to be about the fact that you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid. I would have thought that much of what I was saying is similar to the points you have made to Todd Seal about whether less well resourced users should have to make adjustments to their browsers because of bad web design / blogging software. Would you advertise an event as being accessible and then blame a wheelchair user for not bringing their own ramp? Would you tell someone there is a bus service so long as they can run and jump on it as the driver cant be bothered to stop? Would you ask a car driver to pull into the side of the road and change the type of wheels on their car because some local planner thought it would be good to have a stretch or road that was 'rough terrain'? Even though cars can go very fast, the common agreement is that for safety reasons and social responsibility they are not driven fast in shared public places. Perhaps those who want to talk about, and show off their 'bling' vehicles should congregate at some racetrack type list. Perhaps Andy can set one up for boy racers. (joke) What is it that I wrote that made you go off the deep end and write so offensively and unconstructively? Quite honestly it only reinforces my concern about this list, whether or not it has 7,000 users. Have you ever wondered that maybe so few people actually contribute as your type response makes it appear not legitimate for a USER to say - 'actually that isn't my experience'. Those of us struggling with day to day life in run down, under resourced communities - which as others have commented can be found in inner city and rural areas of 'first world countries' as in 'third world countries' - want the tool to work unobtrusively so that they / we can get access to information. Its about getting access to the information and exchange that being on the the other side of the digital divide excludes us from. Perhaps the list could introduce a quota so that at least a third if not a half of the postings to this list come from users of the technology on 'the other side of the digital divide' ie on the other side of the view point and experience of the predominantly white, male, western, capitalist world. So I repeat " ... it is not that they're techno-phobic, or uneducated, but the culture (and manners?) of the techno messengers that makes them walk away (from the technology) JW At 17:07 23/04/2005, Taran Rampersad wrote: I guess for some it's easy to cut off their noses to spite their faces. But then we have all these noseless people running around who can't smell flowers. And part of what we want them to do is smell flowers. Cut off your nose to spite your face, and become the lowest common denominator - and STAY THERE because you don't want things to improve. In a few years, you'll be part of the Digital Divide. One problem of the Digital Divide is the expectation that all this technology can be used without exercising the intelligence that we all have. We want people to move up. We don't want people to become more stupid because of technology, we want them to become more smart. Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Criticize by creating." Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Todd Seal wrote: > The original post for this discussion was *not* about new standards. I > think that's just how you've interpreted the subject line. It was > about old browsers that are still in use and finding out what those > browsers are. > Fair enough. Siobhan wrote: -- > I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser > compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop > websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites > are accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I > know that the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly > usable. - Now, 'what the current browser compliance standards should be for international audiences', in the form of a question, is about what standards... *should* be, which would mean a future standard. If that's not the spirit of the conversation, then maybe I am on the wrong track. But I sincerely don't think so, Todd. > How does a discussion about new browsers help those with old browsers? > If a person could have access to a new browser, then are those really > people across the digital divide? I assumed that the digital divide > refers to people with no or low technology. 'Browser Compliance standard' means *what* *standards* *a* *browser* should comply to. Not a website. I'm leaving this alone now, the points have been made. -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
The original post for this discussion was *not* about new standards. I think that's just how you've interpreted the subject line. It was about old browsers that are still in use and finding out what those browsers are. How does a discussion about new browsers help those with old browsers? If a person could have access to a new browser, then are those really people across the digital divide? I assumed that the digital divide refers to people with no or low technology. A discussion of new browser standards is moot, anyhow. The W3C is doing a good job. What are the problems with the W3C standards that we need to address here? If we want to talk about how to encourage browser companies to comply to those standards, I'm all for that. But if we want to talk about how new browsers can comply to the W3C standards even better, I don't see how that is germane to a discussion about the digital divide. My solution is for those who are frustrated by sites not displaying properly because they are on computer systems that are old. Those are the users I'm concerned about and the users I had in mind with my "just turn off the style sheets!" discussion. If you're talking about something else, then my solution doesn't pertain to the problem you are discussing. As I've said repeatedly, maybe we need to clarify what the "problem" is that you are seeing. -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: Taran Rampersad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Digital Divide Network discussion group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences >Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:14:51 -0500 > >Todd, > >We're talking about what would be proposed for new standards. That means >new browsers. Old browsers, and old computers, will always be behind. So >the problem you're talking about is economic, mainly. > >It seems to me that just turning off style sheets and 'living with it' >is a great way to perpetuate the divide. If the problem is that *older >machines* cannot run the newer browsers, then turning off style sheets >is a temporary measure. > >The fact that the majority of older browsers did NOT pay attention to >W3C standards is an extremely important point in this regard. So maybe >getting people access to the internet on old machines isn't enough in >some instances. Sometimes they need the machines that support the >software that are Open Standard compliant. And THAT should be the bare >minimum of entry. > >Tossing computers at problems without understanding problems is a famous >business mistake. First you have to define what the requirements for the >systems are. If the systems are to be used on the internet to visit >sites that have W3C compliant style sheets, then guess what? That's what >you NEED. > >Todd Seal wrote: > > > I am very familiar with the W3C, but what does that have to do with > > anything? > > > > Is it too much to ask that folk with older browsers simply turn off > > style sheets? We want to cross the digital divide, right? It's > > frustrating to surf on an older computer because sites are all messed > > up and content is hard to read. That's disempowering to some who may > > want to start a blog and voice their opinions but are stymied by old > > technology. To remove that block, turn off style sheets. What's the > > problem with that? > > > > If not that, then what *are* the "browser standards" being proposed? I > > still argue that "browser standards" has been misinterpreted on this > > thread. If we are, indeed, discussing browser standards, the W3C is > > beginning to address that, no? If browser companies were to read the > > W3C specs and build browsers that interpreted code according to those > > specs, would that achieve the desired effect? > > > > What about all those people out there that currently have NS4.5 and > > CANNOT upgrade due to low processors? What are we doing to make the > > internet accessible for them? That's why I brought coding standards > > into this discussion, because all we can do for the NS4.5 people is > > code better. If someone is stuck with an old browser, we need to take > > that browser into consideration when designing and coding sites. > > That's the idea that I read as the original intent of this thread. > > -todd seal > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >From: Taran Rampersad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Digital Divide Network discussion >
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
I suggest you have something else wrong with your computers then! I just logged into blogger.com with NS4.7 (pc and mac) and NS7 (pc and mac) and IE (pc-6 and mac-5.2). As I said, most of my students created their acounts on NS4.7. I wonder what the problem is. What you're describing is very odd! -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Nope. It does not work. I assure you, I have tried repeatedly. I have tried creating new accounts. It does NOT work on my machine, not with any of the three browsers I had. I'm certainly not a super user, but I'm certainly not a novice either. There are many sites where one of my browsers work and the other doesn't, but blogger.com gets the award as a triple threat -- none of my three browsers work. The digital divide isn't just in the South... Huh. So now we have the digital divide as a older mac vs. pc divide? No wonder blogger.com didn't work when I went to my my mom's house. Too many sites ignore mac testing altogether and I guess they'd rather test it out on the newer browsers like safari and firefox on the assumption that all mac users have upgraded to version X and above by now. Usually you only have a few overworked people doing the testing and if the statistics say that only .05 % are going to be using such an old browser on a mac, they probably ignored it, figuring that those people won't know about blogging anyway... MM ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Todd, We're talking about what would be proposed for new standards. That means new browsers. Old browsers, and old computers, will always be behind. So the problem you're talking about is economic, mainly. It seems to me that just turning off style sheets and 'living with it' is a great way to perpetuate the divide. If the problem is that *older machines* cannot run the newer browsers, then turning off style sheets is a temporary measure. The fact that the majority of older browsers did NOT pay attention to W3C standards is an extremely important point in this regard. So maybe getting people access to the internet on old machines isn't enough in some instances. Sometimes they need the machines that support the software that are Open Standard compliant. And THAT should be the bare minimum of entry. Tossing computers at problems without understanding problems is a famous business mistake. First you have to define what the requirements for the systems are. If the systems are to be used on the internet to visit sites that have W3C compliant style sheets, then guess what? That's what you NEED. Todd Seal wrote: > I am very familiar with the W3C, but what does that have to do with > anything? > > Is it too much to ask that folk with older browsers simply turn off > style sheets? We want to cross the digital divide, right? It's > frustrating to surf on an older computer because sites are all messed > up and content is hard to read. That's disempowering to some who may > want to start a blog and voice their opinions but are stymied by old > technology. To remove that block, turn off style sheets. What's the > problem with that? > > If not that, then what *are* the "browser standards" being proposed? I > still argue that "browser standards" has been misinterpreted on this > thread. If we are, indeed, discussing browser standards, the W3C is > beginning to address that, no? If browser companies were to read the > W3C specs and build browsers that interpreted code according to those > specs, would that achieve the desired effect? > > What about all those people out there that currently have NS4.5 and > CANNOT upgrade due to low processors? What are we doing to make the > internet accessible for them? That's why I brought coding standards > into this discussion, because all we can do for the NS4.5 people is > code better. If someone is stuck with an old browser, we need to take > that browser into consideration when designing and coding sites. > That's the idea that I read as the original intent of this thread. > -todd seal > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >From: Taran Rampersad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Digital Divide Network discussion > group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: The Digital Divide Network discussion > group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international > audiences > >Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:47:07 -0500 > > > >Todd Seal wrote: > > > > > Hrm... I'm responding to this is relation to a digital > divide, not a > > > future case scenario. It was suggested that blogging > software, a means > > > by which just about anyone should be able to communicate > their ideas, > > > wasn't working in some browsers. From where I stand > (ideologically), > > > that's not the case. > > > >Are you at all familiar with the W3C? > > > >-- > >Taran Rampersad > >Presently in: Panama City, Panama > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >http://www.linuxgazette.com > >http://www.a42.com > >http://www.knowprose.com > >http://www.easylum.net > > > >"Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo > > > >___ > >DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list > >DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org > >http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide > >To unsubscribe, send a message to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the > body of the message. > > > ___ > DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list > DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org > http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide > To unsubscribe, send a message to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the > body of the message. > -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Life in Hackney wrote: > I cant let this pass. You are totally missing the point. I could say the same. > > Ordinary users, which is what the digital divide is about - not the > techies or the faddists who have time to twiddle and experiment with > things - just want a tool that works. Right, and stripping off things that are supposed to work without griping about them is a bad habit to create for users. Imagine if you bought a car and the air conditioner caused the engine to run funny. Would you gripe about it, or would you take the car back in to get fixed? I don't think you have to be a techie or a faddist to do the right thing. I guess for some it's easy to cut off their noses to spite their faces. But then we have all these noseless people running around who can't smell flowers. And part of what we want them to do is smell flowers. If you count the Digital Divide as a lack of commodities, then you are exactly right. Cut off your nose to spite your face, and become the lowest common denominator - and STAY THERE because you don't want things to improve. In a few years, you'll be part of the Digital Divide. > > The technology is the tool, this obsession with bling technology is > getting me down. That you think it's 'bling' doesn't make it so. Style sheets, used properly, can make information accessible easily for other *languages*, for the *visually impaired* and so on. Bling, bling, bling. > > How is any of this tackling the digital divide? How is turning off style sheets tackling the Digital Divide? Hiding from a technology is one way to assure that it doesn't get better, especially for the individual. > As some one who works with groups who are 'making do' in an inner city > borough this is just what alienates them from the technology. Not that > they're techno-phobic, or uneducated, but the culture of the techno > messengers makes them walk away ... You can't have your cake and eat it too. One problem of the Digital Divide is the expectation that all this technology can be used without exercising the intelligence that we all have. When you drive a car, you have to make sure that it has gas, water, oil... pay attention to signs, stay within safe operating limits. A pedestrian attitude does not translate to a person who drives a car. But the reverse is true. We want people to move up. We don't want people to become more stupid because of technology, we want them to become more smart. Turning off style sheets makes them less smart, and does not penalize the sites and that are unfriendly. Instead, we see people not using style sheets and ruining GOOD websites with stylesheets by not portraying them the way they are designed because a few (criminally?) negligent people are being permitted to control the way people use their browsers. The Digital Divide is about community. Do we not expect excellence within the communities that we wish to build? If so, then we need to demand excellence - not handicap our own web browsers. -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
>>There's no "Sign In" button to press, but enter your username and password, then press Enter on the keyboard, and you're logged in. Nope. It does not work. I assure you, I have tried repeatedly. I have tried creating new accounts. It does NOT work on my machine, not with any of the three browsers I had. I'm certainly not a super user, but I'm certainly not a novice either. There are many sites where one of my browsers work and the other doesn't, but blogger.com gets the award as a triple threat -- none of my three browsers work. The digital divide isn't just in the South... -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Jayne Cravens Bonn, Germany Services for Mission-Based Orgs www.coyotecommunications.com TECH4IMPACT Newsletter www.coyotecommunications.com/tech4impact.html Open University Development Studies www.coyotecommunications.com/development Contact me www.coyotecommunications.com/contact.html <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
I am very familiar with the W3C, but what does that have to do with anything? Is it too much to ask that folk with older browsers simply turn off style sheets? We want to cross the digital divide, right? It's frustrating to surf on an older computer because sites are all messed up and content is hard to read. That's disempowering to some who may want to start a blog and voice their opinions but are stymied by old technology. To remove that block, turn off style sheets. What's the problem with that? If not that, then what *are* the "browser standards" being proposed? I still argue that "browser standards" has been misinterpreted on this thread. If we are, indeed, discussing browser standards, the W3C is beginning to address that, no? If browser companies were to read the W3C specs and build browsers that interpreted code according to those specs, would that achieve the desired effect? What about all those people out there that currently have NS4.5 and CANNOT upgrade due to low processors? What are we doing to make the internet accessible for them? That's why I brought coding standards into this discussion, because all we can do for the NS4.5 people is code better. If someone is stuck with an old browser, we need to take that browser into consideration when designing and coding sites. That's the idea that I read as the original intent of this thread. -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: Taran Rampersad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],The Digital Divide Network discussion group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences >Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:47:07 -0500 > >Todd Seal wrote: > > > Hrm... I'm responding to this is relation to a digital divide, not a > > future case scenario. It was suggested that blogging software, a means > > by which just about anyone should be able to communicate their ideas, > > wasn't working in some browsers. From where I stand (ideologically), > > that's not the case. > >Are you at all familiar with the W3C? > >-- >Taran Rampersad >Presently in: Panama City, Panama >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://www.linuxgazette.com >http://www.a42.com >http://www.knowprose.com >http://www.easylum.net > >"Criticize by creating." Michelangelo > >___ >DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list >DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org >http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide >To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
I cant let this pass. You are totally missing the point. Ordinary users, which is what the digital divide is about - not the techies or the faddists who have time to twiddle and experiment with things - just want a tool that works. If a user Netscape 4 goes to a web page that doesn't display properly, they go away and don't come back. It is as unacceptable as people who say things like ' ... this web page is best viewed with screen resolution by ... '' The digital divide is about users being able to USE their equipiment in the circumstances they exist in. Equally bad are the web designers who wont accept that like it or not the default setting in IE is usually text size 'smaller;. Most users never change this. The web designers who then set their font size to look 'normal' with the 'medium' setting are actually alienating 99% of IE visitors. I don't bother with sites who do this. It doesn't matter that I know how to change the text size. I boycott them on the basis that they don't care about catering for their potential audience. The technology is the tool, this obsession with bling technology is getting me down. How is any of this tackling the digital divide? As some one who works with groups who are 'making do' in an inner city borough this is just what alienates them from the technology. Not that they're techno-phobic, or uneducated, but the culture of the techno messengers makes them walk away ... JW At 02:37 22/04/2005, Todd Seal wrote: Jayne Cravens said... ... I wrote tech support and their reply: use a different machine with a higher version of MS Explorer or NetScape. So, I certainly won't be recommending blogger.com to anyone. ... turning off the style sheets in your browser and separating content from design are not mutually exclusive, in fact they depend on each other. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Todd Seal wrote: > Hrm... I'm responding to this is relation to a digital divide, not a > future case scenario. It was suggested that blogging software, a means > by which just about anyone should be able to communicate their ideas, > wasn't working in some browsers. From where I stand (ideologically), > that's not the case. Are you at all familiar with the W3C? -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Todd Seal wrote: > Taran, turning off the style sheets in your browser and separating > content from design are not mutually exclusive, in fact they depend on > each other. It is *because* you separate content from design that > turning off style sheets in your browser works well. That's exactly > why style sheets play an important part in the future of Web design: > they allow you to present style to those that can handle it and > content to everyone...EVERYONE. There's the emphasis. Err. You're talking about NOW. We're talking - or I *hope* we're talking - about the future. Frankly, turning off style sheets is a kludge and is something that shouldn't be encouraged because it doesn't force people to fix what they did wrong. It's sort of like just cleaning your bed buying more toothpaste without saying a word when a 5 year old sprays the toothpaste all over your bed. Unless you communicate somehow that the spraying of toothpaste on a bed is not acceptable, you can expect to continue the cycle. So it is with style sheets. > > And I don't think we're talking about browser standards. We're talking > about how to code sites so that they play nice with older browsers; > we're talking about coding standards, the thing we have control over. > If we're talking about browser standards, those standards are already > in place with new browsers. We can't impose any browser standards on > old browsers (I know the subject line implies that discussion, but I > think we turned from that a while ago; the original topic was a call > for the lowest common denominator in browsers). No, we're exactly talking about the *lack* of browser standards. Coding standards are a separate issue, and are being handled quite well by W3C and voluntary webmasters who assure that the code on their sites works. Please don't mix the issues. > I still believe we're creating an issue where there isn't one. Turn > off style sheets and everyone can browse the internet and even start a > blog. The current W3C standards have made a big move toward that > separation of content and style. That's exactly what we should all > want since that makes the content accessible to everyone (remember my > emphasis from earlier). I think that people who don't see the issue are helping perpetuate the issue, and I cannot seem to communicate properly such that the importance of fixing things that are broken is understood. You should be able to turn on your computer and do exactly what you want with it without dinking in the background. Linux is getting there after Windows paved the way, OS/X simply works and I still long for the days of the Vic-20. The truth is that the *lack of enforced standards* is an issue. And what's funny is that we want to organize bodies to enforce standards so that we have someone to handle problems for the software we run. But we should be doing that with the manufacturers of our software instead, since they ARE responsible for the software we use. That's the beauty of the FLOS community that is lost on many: If you have a problem, you talk to the developer. For everyone else, call customer service or sign a petition. Or create an organizations body so that you have more money going down the tubes to do the same thing, and have plausible deniability... Well, I guess my personal opinions are pretty apparent. But I think that they are also pretty well substantiated. Take a look around. -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Hrm... I'm responding to this is relation to a digital divide, not a future case scenario. It was suggested that blogging software, a means by which just about anyone should be able to communicate their ideas, wasn't working in some browsers. From where I stand (ideologically), that's not the case. So that we're all clear, here's the original email of this thread: Hi all, I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites are accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I know that the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly usable. For a long time, I have been using Netscape 4.75 as the lowest common denominator in terms of browser compliance but am wondering if this is long out of date, especially as this browser is not fully compliant with CSS 1 (let alone CSS 2, XML or newer HTML standards). The good thing about >>508 compliance is that the site needs to degrade gracefully without a CSS so I am not worried about a site being totally unusable (just ugly or harder to use). Obviously, if the site is intentionally directed at a specific audience in a specific country, then we will make the site supportive of that specific environment. But I also need a general rule of thumb where we have a broad audience of "Development community" or "General Public". Suggestions, thoughts, experiences, all welcome!! Siobhan Green Taran, so in talking about now VS. the future, are we talking about things like NS7.2, IE6.0, Opera7.2 (or the current version number), things like the current browsers? I have been suggesting ways that old browsers on old machines can surf with no trouble. I saw that as the origin of this conversation. If you see something different, let's redirect this conversation. I understood browser standards compliance to relate the the minimum browser to design a site for. Taran, you said: "You should be able to turn on your computer and do exactly what you want with it without dinking in the background. Linux is getting there after Windows paved the way, OS/X simply works and I still long for the days of the Vic-20. The truth is that the *lack of enforced standards* is an issue." If you are using a computer that is antiquated, I don't agree with you. If you are using an older computer and an older browser, you should be able to do exactly what you want to do *with* some dinking around in the background, the less dinking the better. I propose a minimum amount of dinking, changing one setting. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that being a necessity. Bottom line, though, is that -- even with an older browser -- you should be able to do what you want to do. The possible solution I see to this problem you suggest is two different versions of a Web site. We cannot possibly expect companies to design their sites by 1999 standards of Web browsing, the standards that using NS4.7 suggests. We might be able to request that they provide a version that would work on such technology, but I venture to guess those companies would say the same thing I am: just turn off style sheets (a relatively simple thing to do) and the site works just fine. And I'm not mixing issues. Perhaps I'm *missing* one, but I'm not mixing them. How can we talk about browser standards in relation to browsers that already exist? Aren't we really talking about what is the baseline browser used? We aren't talking about how to build a better browser, are we? Are we talking about creating a browser that can be installed on older machines and render current Web sites accurately? That's not the conversation I jumped in on nor the idea I saw started (though it might be an intersting one to pursue). In short, what exactly do you see as broken? The old browser that's on an old machine that someone "on the other side of the digital divide" cannot replace? Or the code being implemented on Web sites that cause those sites to render poorly on that old browser on that old machine? I think we have a semantic misunderstanding here. Let's clarify; I think that we agree, we're just using different language to express a similar point. -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Jayne Cravens said... Blogger.com does not work with my machine -- I'm on a Mactintosh, and have three browsers: MS Explorer 5, Netscape 7.0, and Opera 6.3. Blogger.com does not work with any of them -- it will not let me create an account/login. I wrote tech support and their reply: use a different machine with a higher version of MS Explorer or NetScape. So, I certainly won't be recommending blogger.com to anyone. J Craven, I actually have a class project where my freshmen use blogger.com. Until about a month ago, they were using PowerMac G3s with IE5 and they worked. There's no "Sign In" button to press, but enter your username and password, then press Enter on the keyboard, and you're logged in. There's some functionality missing, but to say that it does not work would be overstating the issue. I use a Mac with NS7 and there is no trouble getting into my Blogger account. Maybe there are other problems with your computers. Taran, turning off the style sheets in your browser and separating content from design are not mutually exclusive, in fact they depend on each other. It is *because* you separate content from design that turning off style sheets in your browser works well. That's exactly why style sheets play an important part in the future of Web design: they allow you to present style to those that can handle it and content to everyone...EVERYONE. There's the emphasis. And I don't think we're talking about browser standards. We're talking about how to code sites so that they play nice with older browsers; we're talking about coding standards, the thing we have control over. If we're talking about browser standards, those standards are already in place with new browsers. We can't impose any browser standards on old browsers (I know the subject line implies that discussion, but I think we turned from that a while ago; the original topic was a call for the lowest common denominator in browsers). I think we are now talking about coding standards so that those with older browsers can still have access to content. I argue that it's already happening and turning off style sheets allows that to happen. I don't think it's asking too much of a user with a low-end computer to surf with style sheets off. They don't miss much content (if any), they just miss on style. Some concessions must be made and I'm afraid to say that style is expendable. Content is not. I still believe we're creating an issue where there isn't one. Turn off style sheets and everyone can browse the internet and even start a blog. The current W3C standards have made a big move toward that separation of content and style. That's exactly what we should all want since that makes the content accessible to everyone (remember my emphasis from earlier). -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
That's interesting. I use blogger.com on my mac with MS Explorer 5, Firefox 1, and Safari all the time. Thanks, Katy Pearce FLEX [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting J Cravens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > >>Actually, I am rather impressed with blogger.com in this regard. > > Blogger.com does not work with my machine -- I'm on a Mactintosh, and > have three browsers: MS Explorer 5, Netscape 7.0, and Opera 6.3. > Blogger.com does not work with any of them -- it will not let me > create an account/login. I wrote tech support and their reply: use a > different machine with a higher version of MS Explorer or NetScape. > So, I certainly won't be recommending blogger.com to anyone. > > > -- > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > Jayne Cravens > Bonn, Germany > > Services for Mission-Based Orgs > www.coyotecommunications.com > > TECH4IMPACT Newsletter > www.coyotecommunications.com/tech4impact.html > > Open University Development Studies > www.coyotecommunications.com/development > > Contact me > www.coyotecommunications.com/contact.html > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > ___ > DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list > DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org > http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide > To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. > > > ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
>>Actually, I am rather impressed with blogger.com in this regard. Blogger.com does not work with my machine -- I'm on a Mactintosh, and have three browsers: MS Explorer 5, Netscape 7.0, and Opera 6.3. Blogger.com does not work with any of them -- it will not let me create an account/login. I wrote tech support and their reply: use a different machine with a higher version of MS Explorer or NetScape. So, I certainly won't be recommending blogger.com to anyone. -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Jayne Cravens Bonn, Germany Services for Mission-Based Orgs www.coyotecommunications.com TECH4IMPACT Newsletter www.coyotecommunications.com/tech4impact.html Open University Development Studies www.coyotecommunications.com/development Contact me www.coyotecommunications.com/contact.html <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Todd Seal wrote: > I stand by my original comments (the "nonsense" bit included) and > reply: "anyone on the other side of the digital divide who wants to > easily communicate with others via the internet" can do so simply by > turning off style sheets in their browser and that's easy to do. > -todd seal > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Todd, I think you're right to some degree. But in developing better browser standards - or getting browser software to better follow browser standards - we should probably note the problem and try to find a better fix than disabling style sheets. Style sheets do have an important part of the future to play - they allow individuals to focus on content instead of layout. :-) -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Panama City, Panama [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Again, I say nonsense, though you are correct about the Digital Divide discussion boards not displaying at all in NS4.x (faux pas!!). You're talking about Web sites displaying improperly and I'm talking about software working. My point is that the software works, it just hasn't been modified to display very well. I logged into my blogger account just fine with NS4.7. It doesn't look as pretty, but it does work. Actually, I am rather impressed with blogger.com in this regard. I even kept the style sheets on in there and it wasn't an issue. Looking at my Blogger site with *the style sheet turned off*, it works and my content is there (with style sheets enabled, it is a mess I'll admit). What I suggest is coding pages so that the CSS isn't even picked up by older browsers, something that hasn't been done by any of those sites you listed. That's why those pages look so bad in NS4.x. It isn't that they don't work, it's that they simply display the information poorly. I can't stress that enough. Perhaps an issue has been created where there is none. There's an easy way to avoid all this and give anyone a voice online who wants it. In your Netscape browser, if you go to Preferences >> Advanced, make sure that "Enable style sheets" is not selected and you'll find your browsing experience much more to your liking: plain and unstyled, but operational. I logged into my WordPress installation just fine and even visited their site without incident. In fact, I visited all the sites you listed and, with style sheets not enabled, they displayed the content very well (I couldn't get myblogsite.com up; maybe it was down for repairs or something). Those sites are all coded nicely and display the unstyled content as they should. Perhaps that's really all that needs to be done to go a long way with this problem. Just turn off the style sheets! That's it!? That's it. Now, even those using NS4.7 can blog (that's the lowest version I have around here; I can only assume that this will be true with NS4.5 and 4.6, but test it for me). No technology disempowerment or anything. I stand by my original comments (the "nonsense" bit included) and reply: "anyone on the other side of the digital divide who wants to easily communicate with others via the internet" can do so simply by turning off style sheets in their browser and that's easy to do. -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
If you go to the home page of any of the following using Netscape 4.6 they do NOT display properly. So for a 'novice' and for anyone on the other side of the digital divide who wants to easily communicate with others via the internet, and not have the technology disempower them, these are the nonsense wordpress.com squarespace.com MyBlogSite.com/ blogger.com xanga.com blogjet.com livejournal.com is sort of ok - you can follow screen instructions at least blogware.com also seems just about okay So the 'nonsense' is that the medium is blocking the (potential) message. JW (this is not an exhaustive list - just what I could tolerate doing over an hour switching between Netscape 4 and IE6 for comparison) Point of Information - the Digital Divide home page displays, but none of the discussion board facilities display in Netscape 4 At 04:08 16/04/2005, Todd Seal wrote: I don't have figures for browser configurations in that part of the world, but I have trouble with their assessment that blogs don't display correctly in NS4 (I assume 4.7, but it may be 4.5). Most blog software just takes what you type into it, stores it in a database, and spits out code when you want it. That is all done on the Web server, independent of your browser. The way it's displayed has to do with the code the blog software spits out. That can be changed to suit the purpose. If that person is having trouble with blogs displaying correctly in NS4, it's most likely simply a matter of a CSS-based layout or just the software producing troubled code. Easily fixed. If folks using NS4 want content, they get it without any fancy layout. I don't see a problem with that. But this idea of blogging software not working in NS4 is nonsense. The only thing I can think of is dealing with logging into blog software. Much of the time, those administration panels are full of code that doesn't render well in older browsers. Again, though, this is just a matter of modifying the code it spits out. Back on the topic here (sorry for that, but I get into discussions about such things!), what is wrong with using CSS to create the layout, thereby serving up to NS4 users a sort of plain text version of your site? Look at most modern sites and turn CSS off (somewhere in your browser options). What's wrong with that presentation? A computer with NS4 probably isn't working terribly fast, so those graphics and such that CSS brings in would take too long to display anyhow. If you're writing valid (X)HTML, you page content will show up just fine. Isn't that the important stuff, anyhow? It's all about the content, right? Shouldn't the latest W3C standards work just fine for international audiences? -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
I don't have figures for browser configurations in that part of the world, but I have trouble with their assessment that blogs don't display correctly in NS4 (I assume 4.7, but it may be 4.5). Most blog software just takes what you type into it, stores it in a database, and spits out code when you want it. That is all done on the Web server, independent of your browser. The way it's displayed has to do with the code the blog software spits out. That can be changed to suit the purpose. If that person is having trouble with blogs displaying correctly in NS4, it's most likely simply a matter of a CSS-based layout or just the software producing troubled code. Easily fixed. If folks using NS4 want content, they get it without any fancy layout. I don't see a problem with that. But this idea of blogging software not working in NS4 is nonsense. The only thing I can think of is dealing with logging into blog software. Much of the time, those administration panels are full of code that doesn't render well in older browsers. Again, though, this is just a matter of modifying the code it spits out. Back on the topic here (sorry for that, but I get into discussions about such things!), what is wrong with using CSS to create the layout, thereby serving up to NS4 users a sort of plain text version of your site? Look at most modern sites and turn CSS off (somewhere in your browser options). What's wrong with that presentation? A computer with NS4 probably isn't working terribly fast, so those graphics and such that CSS brings in would take too long to display anyhow. If you're writing valid (X)HTML, you page content will show up just fine. Isn't that the important stuff, anyhow? It's all about the content, right? Shouldn't the latest W3C standards work just fine for international audiences? -todd seal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Hi Siobhan Was interested to read your posting as this is a message I recently sent to the IS Forum - " ... a smallish housing charity has maintained a web site for a few years. From their web logs they know they have on average between 10-15% of visitors each month who are using Netscape 4. They do not want to lose these visitors, nor alienate them, but are in a quandary as they are now hoping to start a blog for shorter informal postings. It seems that most blogging software does not display properly in Netscape 4 (frames? or ...?) So does anyone know of any blogging software / site that displays properly in Netscape 4. ... " This is in the UK and certainly until recently I was lead to believe Netscape 4 is still used by a recognisable % of less well resourced community and advocacy groups in Asia (Indian sub continent) - although I have not seen any recent statistics on this. Would be interested to know if you know have, or any one has, recent figures on this for any part of the world. JW At 15:13 14/04/2005, Siobhan Green wrote: Hi all, I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites are accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I know that the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly usable. For a long time, I have been using Netscape 4.75 as the lowest common denominator in terms of browser compliance but am wondering if this is long out of date, especially as this browser is not fully compliant with CSS 1 (let alone CSS 2, XML or newer HTML standards). The good thing about 508 compliance is that the site needs to degrade gracefully without a CSS so I am not worried about a site being totally unusable (just ugly or harder to use). Obviously, if the site is intentionally directed at a specific audience in a specific country, then we will make the site supportive of that specific environment. But I also need a general rule of thumb where we have a broad audience of "Development community" or "General Public". Suggestions, thoughts, experiences, all welcome!! Siobhan Green ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Siobhan, If I recall correctly, there is a lot of useful info and links on the W3.org site. Most of it is geared toward defining such standards, but they usually point the reader to practical guides. See also: North Carolina State University, The Center for Universal Design Trace Research & Development Center. University of Wisconsin-Madison. Best, WJM Peter Abrahamsen wrote: Perhaps this is too obvious, but for heaven's sake, people, set your character set correctly. Don't make my browser (or me) guess. Living for the time being in the third world (though there are certainly far poorer places), I think Netscape 4.75 probably is a little out of date. I haven't seen it in quite a while. IE5.0 is probably a good base, and as far as I can tell, people who don't use IE use Firefox or Mozilla. But that's just Nicaragua. I do like the idea of 'degrading gracefully' in the absence of CSS support. Sites that are written well enough for that are generally also readable in lynx/w3m/links (and presumably TTS browsers) because their HTML is mostly semantic, i.e., UL's for navigation bars. So even if you accept as baseline a CSS-compliant browser, I'd keep that part of 508. That was partly just a brain dump, sorry. Hope it was helpful. Peter On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:13:13AM -0400, Siobhan Green wrote: Hi all, I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites are accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I know that the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly usable. For a long time, I have been using Netscape 4.75 as the lowest common denominator in terms of browser compliance but am wondering if this is long out of date, especially as this browser is not fully compliant with CSS 1 (let alone CSS 2, XML or newer HTML standards). The good thing about 508 compliance is that the site needs to degrade gracefully without a CSS so I am not worried about a site being totally unusable (just ugly or harder to use). Obviously, if the site is intentionally directed at a specific audience in a specific country, then we will make the site supportive of that specific environment. But I also need a general rule of thumb where we have a broad audience of "Development community" or "General Public". Suggestions, thoughts, experiences, all welcome!! Siobhan Green ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message. -- Bill McIver, Ph.D == Group Leader (Acting) | Chef de groupe (par int?rim) e-Government/e-Citizen Group | Groupe de gouvernement ?lectronique/citoyen ?lectronique National Research Council | Conseil national de recherches Canada Institute for Information Technology | Institut de technologie de l'information 46 Dineen Drive | 46, promenade Dineen Fredericton, NB E3B 9W4 Canada| Fredericton, NB E3B 9W4 Canada E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == http://iit-iti.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/r-d/e-government-gouvernement-e_e.html http://iit-iti.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/r-d/e-government-gouvernement-e_f.html ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Siobhan Green wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser > compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop > websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites > are accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I > know that the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly > usable. One of the largest stumbling blocks - as you already pointed out - are the browsers that are not compliant with W3C standards when it comes to CSS, HTML and even Javascript. All of these can be worked around. My main problem, believe it or not, is the palette. Color palette differences are one of the largest problems, and would be something that I would wish were standardized. I use Mozilla as the standard browser for color palettes right now, and that's not because the palette is better but because on the sites I administrate and work with, Mozilla is dominant (40%) as well as the fact that Mozilla is more compliant with W3C standards than the browser most people get preinstalled. -- Taran Rampersad Presently in: Esteli, Nicaragua [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] Current browser standards for international audiences
Perhaps this is too obvious, but for heaven's sake, people, set your character set correctly. Don't make my browser (or me) guess. Living for the time being in the third world (though there are certainly far poorer places), I think Netscape 4.75 probably is a little out of date. I haven't seen it in quite a while. IE5.0 is probably a good base, and as far as I can tell, people who don't use IE use Firefox or Mozilla. But that's just Nicaragua. I do like the idea of 'degrading gracefully' in the absence of CSS support. Sites that are written well enough for that are generally also readable in lynx/w3m/links (and presumably TTS browsers) because their HTML is mostly semantic, i.e., UL's for navigation bars. So even if you accept as baseline a CSS-compliant browser, I'd keep that part of 508. That was partly just a brain dump, sorry. Hope it was helpful. Peter On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 10:13:13AM -0400, Siobhan Green wrote: > Hi all, > > I was wondering what y'alls thoughts are on what the current browser > compliance standards should be for international audiences. I develop > websites for a variety of non-profits which want to ensure the sites are > accessible by the majority of users in developing countries. I know that > the sites need to be low bandwidth, 508 compliant/highly usable. > > For a long time, I have been using Netscape 4.75 as the lowest common > denominator in terms of browser compliance but am wondering if this is > long out of date, especially as this browser is not fully compliant with > CSS 1 (let alone CSS 2, XML or newer HTML standards). The good thing > about 508 compliance is that the site needs to degrade gracefully > without a CSS so I am not worried about a site being totally unusable > (just ugly or harder to use). > > Obviously, if the site is intentionally directed at a specific audience > in a specific country, then we will make the site supportive of that > specific environment. But I also need a general rule of thumb where we > have a broad audience of "Development community" or "General Public". > > Suggestions, thoughts, experiences, all welcome!! > > Siobhan Green ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
