Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Just so there is some clarity on the subject, here is where I am coming from completely. snip Your post is extremely informative and I'm sure Fedora users appreciate your work. However, there is exactly one point about which I propose we just agree to disagree: Lossless streaming of ogg files as PCM or FLAC is not attractive to the Fedora Extras community C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Exactly. Most users probably could not even tell if their Ogg library was being sent as PCM. If they are on a lossy or low bandwidth network they can always install LAME and stream their library as MP3. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Pernegger Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:30 AM To: discuss@lists.slimdevices.com Subject: Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware Just so there is some clarity on the subject, here is where I am coming from completely. snip Your post is extremely informative and I'm sure Fedora users appreciate your work. However, there is exactly one point about which I propose we just agree to disagree: Lossless streaming of ogg files as PCM or FLAC is not attractive to the Fedora Extras community C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:29:52 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just so there is some clarity on the subject, here is where I am coming from completely. snip Your post is extremely informative and I'm sure Fedora users appreciate your work. However, there is exactly one point about which I propose we just agree to disagree: Lossless streaming of ogg files as PCM or FLAC is not attractive to the Fedora Extras community It's a waste of resources. You don't get better audio quality by streaming an ogg file as lossless. It does take more CPU usage - as it has to be decoded (and maybe flac encoded) It does take more bandwidth on your network. So by streaming oggs as lossless, you use more resources and do not gain anything. If all your network/computer do is squeezebox - BFD. But Linux users tend to have a lot more going on, and also often tend to use older computers as headless boxes for things like slimserver - where the cpu load will make a difference (especially if same box is being used for DNS and mail and ... as well) -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
So by streaming oggs as lossless, you use more resources and do not gain anything. If all your network/computer do is squeezebox - BFD. But Linux users tend to have a lot more going on, and also often tend to use older computers as headless boxes for things like slimserver - where the cpu load will make a difference (especially if same box is being used for DNS and mail and ... as well) You should file this as a bug/enhancement request and then you can petition all of your friends to vote on it to see if it can be implemented. However, as many have told you, the CPU requirements of transcoding are minimal and transcoding to a lossless format for delivery is an excellent solution for [b]most[/b] users. Those who might panic over a small additional overhead on the cpu when playing music (remember that a cheap 1ghz Celeron box can easily support 6-8 players even WITH transcoding) or a small additional load on the network and who refuse to transcode their music might best look elsewhere for a music solution. It took Slim a very long time to add native FLAC support to SB (and actually had to come out with SB2 to do it) so I wouldn't hold my breath on the addition of another native codec. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
You don't get better audio quality by streaming an ogg file as lossless. I do not know if all possible ogg decoders necessarily produce identical output It's a waste of resources. It does take more CPU usage - as it has to be decoded (and maybe flac encoded) It does take more bandwidth on your network. What for you is a waste of ressources is for me the main appeal in having a _slim_ hardware device - flexibility. I just do not care if the sb uses 1.7% of my bandwidth or 0.2% and if your server can't take oggdec+flac without breaking a sweat it probably freezes solid for an hour whenever you hit rescan anyway. We aren't going to reach agreement on this one - let's drop it. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I have submitted an enhancement request (BUG 1061). I also agree with the other poster that it is a waste of resources. SLIMDEVICES is hoping that the extra buffer and the bandwidth compression of FLAC will be a reasonable stopgap measure. It definitely will be an improvement over WAV and SB1, but no way is it as good as the actual ogg support in firmware. Quoting Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So by streaming oggs as lossless, you use more resources and do not gain anything. If all your network/computer do is squeezebox - BFD. But Linux users tend to have a lot more going on, and also often tend to use older computers as headless boxes for things like slimserver - where the cpu load will make a difference (especially if same box is being used for DNS and mail and ... as well) You should file this as a bug/enhancement request and then you can petition all of your friends to vote on it to see if it can be implemented. However, as many have told you, the CPU requirements of transcoding are minimal and transcoding to a lossless format for delivery is an excellent solution for [b]most[/b] users. Those who might panic over a small additional overhead on the cpu when playing music (remember that a cheap 1ghz Celeron box can easily support 6-8 players even WITH transcoding) or a small additional load on the network and who refuse to transcode their music might best look elsewhere for a music solution. It took Slim a very long time to add native FLAC support to SB (and actually had to come out with SB2 to do it) so I wouldn't hold my breath on the addition of another native codec. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:54:59 -0800, Michael Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On my 2Hz athlon machine - That should read 2GHz ;) -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:06:46 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you sure you're cpu bound and not disk bound? The 2.4 disk elevator is a nightmare and the 2.6 default is not perfect either. It also happens with my flac files which are on a separate dedicated hard disk (with nothing else on, though I have contemplated putting a swap on it.) -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
While this is true, bandwidth / size is not really an issue any more in any kind of stationary setup. Harddisk sizes are such that even encoding your CDs in a lossless codec is hardly worth the effort anymore - if it weren't for tagging support I'm sure some people would just rip to .wav and be done with it. I'm not sure that's true. If it were not for flac - my archive drive for ripped music would be overful and I would need two drives. Sure, 50% compression will yield you double the music. But a lossy codec will yield you perhaps ten times as much music. Yet you use flac - becauise it saves you from reripping, because of tagging and because it is SMALL ENOUGH. If 1 TB drives were $100 (and they will be, in the not-too-distant-future), perhaps even raw storage is SMALL ENOUGH. The other issue is backup - compressed means less media is needed for backing up your archive. Notice that I wasn't arguing agianst compression per se, but against using lossy compression on a device where storage and memory is not severely limited. Even the size of the backup media increases. Backing up .flac to CD was not very viable - you wouldn't always get two albums on one disk. With 4.5 GB DVDRs it's manageable, with 9 GB ones comfortable. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:42:40 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] But there's one thing I just noticed: STREAMING. I Yes - if SlimServer could stream in ogg, there's a good chance it would make it into distros like Fedora etc. Streaming in flac/PCM is OK but not a lot of people keep lossless around. Streaming in mp3 has the patent issue. Streaming ogg vorbis on the other hand would be extremely beneficial. The license for mDNSResponderPosix (Apple) would need to be looked at. Yes - that's SlimServer and not firmware, but if ogg is in firmware, a side effect is that the Server would need to stream ogg - which would open up the product for potential inclusion in the mainstream distributions. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:26:49 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OGG is an open format. OGG is the default for the FEDORA distribution. MP3 was eliminated from FEDORA due to licensing considerations. You can of course obtain MP3 and install it, but the fact remains that MP3 is no longer distributed by default. Wait, you're telling me that the packages a certain commercial Linux distributor ships have any impact on the market? Sorry, but no. Linux marketshare is definitely growing - don't ignore it. Just a few years ago, if I mentioned the word Linux to a phone tech support person, chances are they would never have heard of it. Now several times - when it has come up, they not only knew what it was, but had played with it - especially knoppix and Ubuntu. Existing mainstream apps that were half baked on Linux are now suddenly getting attention - Adobe Acrobat 7 and RealPlayer no longer suck in Linux, and other mainstream apps are starting to appear - Nero just released a Linux port of their CD Burning software (and no, it's not just a front end to cdrecord) Linux has come a long way on the desktop - and it is continuing to improve. A lot of people are really starting to get sick of the MS Monoculture world that invites malware and viruses etc. to target it, Macs are still expensive (even with the Mini), and Linux is quite good now. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Wait, you're telling me that the packages a certain commercial Linux distributor ships have any impact on the market? Sorry, but no. Linux marketshare is definitely growing - don't ignore it. Yes. But to push one product with another you need a far bigger chunk of the market than Linux currently has. Redhat or other Linux distributors are in no position to push a certain audio codec. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 03:06:10PM +0100, Christian Pernegger wrote: Wait, you're telling me that the packages a certain commercial Linux distributor ships have any impact on the market? Sorry, but no. Linux marketshare is definitely growing - don't ignore it. Yes. But to push one product with another you need a far bigger chunk of the market than Linux currently has. Redhat or other Linux distributors are in no position to push a certain audio codec. Much of Slim Devices' success to this point can probably be attributed to Linux users. -Mark signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Yes - if SlimServer could stream in ogg, there's a good chance it would make it into distros like Fedora etc. Again, what has support of a particular format got to do with putting slimserver in a distribution? Nothing. Yes - that's SlimServer and not firmware, but if ogg is in firmware, a side effect is that the Server would need to stream ogg Why would it NEED to do that? which would open up the product for potential inclusion in the mainstream distributions. The formats the squeezebox can natively support have nothing to do with inclusion in your mainstram distros, whichever these would be. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I'm not so sure. While a lot of the people doing the coding and such are Linux advocates something like 80% of the downloads for Slim Server are for Windows. I would say most users on this list are aware of Linux and the advantages/drawbacks to using it (I myself run my slimserver on FC2) so maybe we can go easy on the Linux evangalism. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Komarinski Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:09 AM To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 03:06:10PM +0100, Christian Pernegger wrote: Wait, you're telling me that the packages a certain commercial Linux distributor ships have any impact on the market? Sorry, but no. Linux marketshare is definitely growing - don't ignore it. Yes. But to push one product with another you need a far bigger chunk of the market than Linux currently has. Redhat or other Linux distributors are in no position to push a certain audio codec. Much of Slim Devices' success to this point can probably be attributed to Linux users. -Mark ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Interesting discussion. BTW, what is this KRUD (wink and nod to our friends at tummy.com) about FEDORA being a commercial distribution? It is not. The topic is a request to have OGG in firmware. I remember when MP3 was dropped from the distro. While I didn't switch my entire library like one poster did, the change caused me to investigate OGG and I found that I liked it. All my new stuff is in the OGG format. I even went out and got an IRIVER jukebox specifically because it supported OGG. I think it is silly my PC needs to transcode all my OGG stuff just to play on my squeezebox. There is no way ANYONE can tell me that is more efficient then just running in firmware. And this stuff about endless bandwidth and disk space. Hey, OGG works fine for me and I'm not interested in taking up more disk space for music. And I agree with that other poster that I would not have FLAC for the squeezebox and then OGG for my IRIVER. I don't want to screw with having to figure out hey, I want to play this song on my Iriver so I need to have another copy in OGG for it and the FLAC copy for my squeezebox. PLEASE, how LAME (pun intended) is that. So SLIMDEVICES when are you going to support OGG in firmware? I want it and I want it NOW (or at least in the near future, please.) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Do you also find it silly that hardly any portable players even support OGG? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hunter Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:40 AM To: discuss@lists.slimdevices.com Subject: Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware Interesting discussion. BTW, what is this KRUD (wink and nod to our friends at tummy.com) about FEDORA being a commercial distribution? It is not. The topic is a request to have OGG in firmware. I remember when MP3 was dropped from the distro. While I didn't switch my entire library like one poster did, the change caused me to investigate OGG and I found that I liked it. All my new stuff is in the OGG format. I even went out and got an IRIVER jukebox specifically because it supported OGG. I think it is silly my PC needs to transcode all my OGG stuff just to play on my squeezebox. There is no way ANYONE can tell me that is more efficient then just running in firmware. And this stuff about endless bandwidth and disk space. Hey, OGG works fine for me and I'm not interested in taking up more disk space for music. And I agree with that other poster that I would not have FLAC for the squeezebox and then OGG for my IRIVER. I don't want to screw with having to figure out hey, I want to play this song on my Iriver so I need to have another copy in OGG for it and the FLAC copy for my squeezebox. PLEASE, how LAME (pun intended) is that. So SLIMDEVICES when are you going to support OGG in firmware? I want it and I want it NOW (or at least in the near future, please.) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Mark Komarinski wrote: Much of Slim Devices' success to this point can probably be attributed to Linux users. OK now where did you get that statistic from? -- Daryle A. Tilroe ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Come on, this hardly seems reasonable. It's one thing to request a feature, it's quite another to demand it. With most products you're lucky to get it to do what it advertises it can do--yet here you're making demands of slimdevices to add new features? They've provided hardware decoding of the most used lossy format (MP3), as well as of what is probably the most used lossless format (FLAC). This will satisfy 90% of the market--but they haven't left the users of other formats out in the cold--they've provided a mechanism to play back almost any format. Rather than spend time implementing every format that a user might demand, I can see why slim would spend their rather meager resources improving other aspects of the design. If this is such a major issue for you then vote with your wallet--go somewhere else and find a player that suits your needs better. For me, though, the networked-audio-device solution Slim provides is the best I've seen; they've spent their resources to develop an incredibly flexible player with tons of functionality and an elegant interface. My guess is that since you are here at the slim boards then you, too, must find that slim products fit your needs well. Based upon their track record I trust them and I trust that they'll respond to the community and add the features that will be most useful to people. It's not like they're just sitting on their duffs and refusing to update the product or something. How many other products do you see functionality added to on a regular (sometimes daily) basis? ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, Mar 15, 2005 at 07:59:43AM -0700, Jason wrote: Do you also find it silly that hardly any portable players even support OGG? yes, especially since there's a completely free (BSD style license) decoder available: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/hardware.html or directly http://xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/download/tremor_cvs_snapshot.tgz Cheers Simon ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:13:26 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes - if SlimServer could stream in ogg, there's a good chance it would make it into distros like Fedora etc. Again, what has support of a particular format got to do with putting slimserver in a distribution? Nothing. Everything - Red Hat / Fedora will never ship mp3 support until all of the relevent patents expire. Since slimserver requires mp3 support for lossy streaming, that means it isn't going to be in Fedora/Red Hat. Yes - that's SlimServer and not firmware, but if ogg is in firmware, a side effect is that the Server would need to stream ogg Why would it NEED to do that? What would be the point of ogg in the squeezebox firmware if the server did not stream in ogg? -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:09:21 -0600, Michael Alletto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a product states that it supports it it will just confuse people. Why? I mean really, OGG? Naming is everything and that name sucks. I don't think it sucks. It's no worse than mp3 or aac or flac. You try convincing someone who's never heard of it to rip their cd's in that format. You'll get a blank stare back. Plus the availability to download ogg based music files is extremely limited. No one is suggesting that mp3 support be dropped. That would be a bad move. I personally don't care either way. I don't use it and never will. I've invested too much time and space into variable bit rate mp3's so I'm not about to go back and rerip everything. Just because something is better doesn't mean it is better. Well - I generally rip once, rip right I rip to lossless - which means I can transcode to whatever format happens to be the best at the moment. For me, that is mp3 because Linux does not have a good aac encoder, and ogg is not supported on my iPod. But ogg in the squeezebox firmware does not require you to change. That, btw, is an excellent way in which the VHS/Betamax analogy fails. If I used a Betamax, I could not play my tapes in a VHS player. Music files are different - you don't have to change your player to change formats, and a player supporting a new format doesn't mean that the users have to stop using what they prefer. There are portable players that do support ogg, and I may buy such a player in the future. Especially if it offers gapless playback - the iPod Mini has a kick arse interface, but I hate the fact that it is not even capable of gapless playback - I enjoy live bootlegs, and a gap between each song really is irritating. When I do replace my iPod Mini, I will look at players that support gapless - and that probably means an ogg player because gapless mp3 is a hack. Plus, I can use ogg at 128 VBR to get what I get with lame at 192VBR - which means more tunes on the player. AAC would also do that, but FAAC needs some serious work. Of course, if Apple released QuickTime for Linux then I could use their AAC encoder, as it is really good. Perhaps Nero will release their AAC encoder for Linux as well - they have released their CD/DVD Burning sweet (I hear it needs some work, but it is just released - that's to be expected) -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:23:32 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This would only be relevant if you were streaming formats other than mp3 to the sb as mp3, i.e. if you were transcoding to mp3 on the server. As long as you just pass through mp3 data to the Squeezebox you don't violate any patents. While true - it would mean the Red Hat/Fedora would be shipping a product for which they do not ship the capability for users to use, the users would have to encode their mp3's elsewhere - and I think you can understand why they would not want to do that. The software they ship rips to ogg. That means the users would be required to broadcast as lossless - or install third party software to transcode their ogg to mp3 for the streaming. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:31:06 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wait a minute, didn't you just bash mp3 halfway around the list because it was patent encumbered? Yet you consider AAC? I just don't get you... I didn't bash mp3. It is a very good lossy codec. mp3 (and aac) will never be in the mainline Fedora distribution because they do require licenses to distribute encoders/decoders for. I use patented software, no doubt about it - but I don't expect it to be in the distribution, I get that elsewhere and install it myself. AAC is a very nice encoding format, probably better than ogg (I haven't done any listening tests, but I was very impressed with 128kbps encodes from iTunes/QuickTime) I'm not bashing mp3 for patent issues, I am stating point blank that the patent issues are in fact a problem for SlimServer ever being included in Fedora/Red Hat mainline distribution - unless their also is a lossy choice that doesn't have the patent issues (and that's ogg) I personally wouldn't mind paying for Fedora for it to come with mp3 support - I'm not against a technology just because their are patents. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I am stating point blank that the patent issues are in fact a problem for SlimServer ever being included in Fedora/Red Hat mainline distribution Then your feature request should not be 'please include native .ogg support in the sb2', it should be 'please try to get slimserver into an official RH package archive' You might also want to look at other distributions and see if they handle slimserver and mp3 support in a way that is more to your liking. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Why on earth would Slim give a damn if Slim server was included in mainline Linux distributions? Do you really think that the inclusion of Slim Server software is going to sell extra Squeezeboxes? Actually there is no reason Slim Server cannot be included in a core distribution as it is, they do not include LAME in the basic configuration, it's up to the user to install and configure LAME. If the streaming is all done by PCM/WAV or FLAC then there are no patents involved. All of which doesn't shed any light on why they should implement Ogg support in firwmare. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Peters Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:40 PM To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:31:06 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wait a minute, didn't you just bash mp3 halfway around the list because it was patent encumbered? Yet you consider AAC? I just don't get you... I didn't bash mp3. It is a very good lossy codec. mp3 (and aac) will never be in the mainline Fedora distribution because they do require licenses to distribute encoders/decoders for. I use patented software, no doubt about it - but I don't expect it to be in the distribution, I get that elsewhere and install it myself. AAC is a very nice encoding format, probably better than ogg (I haven't done any listening tests, but I was very impressed with 128kbps encodes from iTunes/QuickTime) I'm not bashing mp3 for patent issues, I am stating point blank that the patent issues are in fact a problem for SlimServer ever being included in Fedora/Red Hat mainline distribution - unless their also is a lossy choice that doesn't have the patent issues (and that's ogg) I personally wouldn't mind paying for Fedora for it to come with mp3 support - I'm not against a technology just because their are patents. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Jason wrote: Why on earth would Slim give a damn if Slim server was included in mainline Linux distributions? Do you really think that the inclusion of Slim Server software is going to sell extra Squeezeboxes? While I may not think that native OGG in the firmware is much of a priority it certainly would not hurt to have Slimserver be included in a distro. Actually there is no reason Slim Server cannot be included in a core distribution as it is, they do not include LAME in the basic configuration, it's up to the user to install and configure LAME. If the streaming is all done by PCM/WAV or FLAC then there are no patents involved. And, as was pointed out, you can stream your existing MP3s just fine. Finally, if you are running Linux and cannot somehow install LAME then you have other problems. ;-) -- Daryle A. Tilroe ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Hey, I think that is excellent. I sent in a request to SLIMDEVICES to have OGG added to the firmware as I mentioned in a previous post. As a side note, I'm surprised by the negative attitude of a few people regarding the adding of this feature. I don't use FLAC currently, don't have any plans, but I think it is great the support has been added. Quoting Michael Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just so there is some clarity on the subject, here is where I am coming from completely. I am working on an rpm spec file for inclusion of SlimServer in rpm.livna.org rpm.livna.org is a yum repository for packages that can not be included in Fedora Core or Fedora Extras because of patent issues. To get SlimServer into rpm.livna.org there are several things I need to do - some of it is done. The ~/Bin stuff has to go, that's done - Fedora already provides a lame binary and an oggdec binary. I have an rpm spec file that works (at least for me) for Apple's mDNSResponderPosix. I don't have an rpm yet for mppdec because it fails to compile for me, probably a trivial patch - but no sense working on it now because FC4 will ship with a new version of gcc - so it would be better to patch the mpp stuff to that gcc. The other issue is the CPAN/arch stuff. It looks to me by reading the slimserver perl script that SlimServer is dependent upon specific versions - not an issue, I can make a slimserver-perl package src.rpm that builds those specific versions and installs them into CPAN/arch I hope to have this ready for inclusion in rpm.livna.org for FC4 release date in June. It probably would not be in rpm.livna.org until some time after, as the packages have to go through a QA process. But when it is done, a Fedora User will simply need to add the rpm.livna.org repositories, and they can then install slimserver by running yum install slimserver The server and any dependencies would just be pulled in, and the user would ready to point their browser to port 9000 and be done. Updates that fix bugs, bugs either fixed by slimdevices - or bugs fixed by the Fedora Community - would automatically be pushed to users when the rpms are updated on the rpm.livna.org server. If there was a lossy way of streaming that did not use a patented technology, it would be possible to get slimserver into Fedora Extras. I don't know what the patent status is on the mpp stuff - or if it can run without it (I suspect), that may have to remain in livna (like the gstreamer plugin for mp3 is in livna even though gstreamer-plugins are in core) I also do not know about Apple's mDNSResponderPosix. That product actually looks like it could be useful for a LOT of different things in Fedora, it is open source - and Apple does permit grant to use without a license - so it may not take much at all to get it into Fedora Extras. slimserver itself though I don't think will be able to go into extras unless it would be useful to people who do not use music files created with an encoder that has patent distribution issues. SlimServer works fine with ogg now, but only if streamed lossless or if transcoded to mp3. Lossless streaming of ogg files as PCM or FLAC is not attractive to the Fedora Extras community, and transcoding to mp3 would require lame. Slimserver could be patched by the OSS to stream ogg, but such a patch would not work with a Squeezebox unless the Squeezebox could do something with that ogg stream. Starting with Fedora Core 4, Fedora Extras will be enabled by default on a users machine. The goal for Fedora is that by FC5, a user can install stuff from Extras that they want at the time that they install. Having SlimServer in Fedora Extras thus means that all a Fedora user would have to do is run yum install slimserver and they are good to go. Slick, easy, trouble free installation - with a support backend to push updates through when available every time the user runs yum update on their system. Such ease of installation/maintenance means more users of SlimServer, even if they are not all users of SqueezeBox itself - more users of the server potentially means more issues being resolved in a timely manner (it's an open source project) which means a better product for buyers of the product on ANY platform. That's where I'm coming from - that's what oggdec on the SqueezeBox firmware would potentially do. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I do know that transcoding to WAV is not insignificant; and am skeptical of the overhead requirements for FLAC. Regardless, the bandwidth requirements for a FLAC transmission is greater than that of ogg. While this is true, bandwidth / size is not really an issue any more in any kind of stationary setup. Harddisk sizes are such that even encoding your CDs in a lossless codec is hardly worth the effort anymore - if it weren't for tagging support I'm sure some people would just rip to .wav and be done with it. As for bandwidth, it's a hardware and not a codec issue. Most people I know run a 100mbit network, I have my server and one workstation on 1gbit. The squeezebox1 is a stationary 10mbit (or 5.5mbit for wireless) device with, as far as I can tell, a 256k audio buffer. You are not getting dropouts because raw PCM is so incredibly high bandwidth, you are getting dropouts because your squeezebox1 is on a slow link. Either that or your server is not configured correctly. Squeezebox2 solves these problems by widening the pipe to 100mbit (22mbit wireless) and a much larger buffer. Dropouts should be impossible, even for raw PCM. The way I see it, lossy compressed audio has become irrelevant for everything except portable applications. Even there, they are only needed because both storage capacity and battery life are severely limited. Now while capacity is increasing fast, with 2GB flash players and 6GB mini drive players around, battery life is not. I have not heard of any portable where ogg decoding does not consume much more power than mp3 decoding, because vendors don't optimize the ogg decoder much. - For the Squeezebox you can just as well use .flac as .ogg - For your portable mp3 ist still superior because of better battery life. You can transcode those from lossless at your convenience. Don't get me wrong, I like .ogg - I just see no point in implementing a portable format directly on the squeezebox. I'd have no objections even if they moved .mp3 decoding to the server and supported only .flac and .wav directly on the box. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:33:08 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do know that transcoding to WAV is not insignificant; and am skeptical of the overhead requirements for FLAC. Regardless, the bandwidth requirements for a FLAC transmission is greater than that of ogg. While this is true, bandwidth / size is not really an issue any more in any kind of stationary setup. Harddisk sizes are such that even encoding your CDs in a lossless codec is hardly worth the effort anymore - if it weren't for tagging support I'm sure some people would just rip to .wav and be done with it. I'm not sure that's true. If it were not for flac - my archive drive for ripped music would be overful and I would need two drives. I still have room for many more albums on that drive because it is compressed. The other issue is backup - compressed means less media is needed for backing up your archive. While it is true that hard drives are getting bigger and cheaper, storage needs of users are getting bigger as well - especially now that a lot users are keeping video rips of movies around etc. Compression lets you keep more of it so you don't run out out space or have to have several external SCSI/FireWire/USB drives all over the place. -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:33:08 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong, I like .ogg - I just see no point in implementing a portable format directly on the squeezebox. I do. If it used could use ogg for streaming lossy format, there is a better chance that it would be accepted in Linux distros on the installation CD with hackers from the distribution adding cool features (like a gstreamer client etc.) -- http://mpeters.us/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Michael Peters wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:33:08 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong, I like .ogg - I just see no point in implementing a portable format directly on the squeezebox. I do. If it used could use ogg for streaming lossy format, there is a better chance that it would be accepted in Linux distros on the installation CD with hackers from the distribution adding cool features (like a gstreamer client etc.) that's very nice, but you still haven't explained why Slim Devices, Incorporated should be implementing it in their hardware and firmware. More format support is cool and kind of handy, and I certainly appreciate why Ogg is better. Unfortunately, it's the same sort of better that Beta enjoyed over VHS, and consequently in actual fact the only ogg's I have are the few I ripped while experimenting. I'm glad that my iRiver and Slimserver still play them at all, and I don't really care if they're more or less efficient in doing so. -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
That's kind of the whole point. There are lots of geeks out there who are devotees to format X, Y or Z (Monkey Lossless comes to mind) but it's just not practical for Slim to develop support for another portable format on the server and clients when there is already support for a totally accepteable lossy format (MP3) and support for the emerging defacto standard in lossless (FLAC). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Coates Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 8:53 PM To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware Michael Peters wrote: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:33:08 +0100, Christian Pernegger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't get me wrong, I like .ogg - I just see no point in implementing a portable format directly on the squeezebox. I do. If it used could use ogg for streaming lossy format, there is a better chance that it would be accepted in Linux distros on the installation CD with hackers from the distribution adding cool features (like a gstreamer client etc.) that's very nice, but you still haven't explained why Slim Devices, Incorporated should be implementing it in their hardware and firmware. More format support is cool and kind of handy, and I certainly appreciate why Ogg is better. Unfortunately, it's the same sort of better that Beta enjoyed over VHS, and consequently in actual fact the only ogg's I have are the few I ripped while experimenting. I'm glad that my iRiver and Slimserver still play them at all, and I don't really care if they're more or less efficient in doing so. -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I have opened a feature request (Bug 1061) as follows: Native support of OGG VORBIS format in firmware. I've read that FLAC is now supported in Slimserver2. My friends and I have been waiting for native OGG VORBIS support. It is a drag to have to incur the overhead and increased bandwidth requirements to convert to WAV. The option to use LAME to convert to MP3 kind of defeats the purpose of having a OGG library in the first place. If we wanted MP3 we would have encoded in that format in the first place. What are the plans to support the OGG VORBIS format in firmware? I received a prompt response: SB2 has the option of transcoding to FLAC rather than MP3. This gives you the bandwidth benefits of compression without the quality loss of MP3. It's not quite the same as Ogg Vorbis in firmware, but I'm hoping it's a reasonable stopgap measure. Does anyone have any additional information if this support is being seriously considered; and the timeframe that it may be implemented? I would think my friends and I aren't the only ones using this format, esp. with the advent of OGG support in various radio feeds, various portable devices, etc. Is this something that cannot be supported in SB2, and could only be made available in SB3, SB4 or SBx? ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Transcoding to FLAC requires very little overhead and is lossless, so what is the problem? Ogg support would be nice but it's without a doubt the least used format out there (even apple lossless seems to have more devotees) and slim is providing a totally accepteable solution (transcoding to a lossless format). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gerald B. Cox Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:55 AM To: discuss@lists.slimdevices.com Subject: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware I have opened a feature request (Bug 1061) as follows: Native support of OGG VORBIS format in firmware. I've read that FLAC is now supported in Slimserver2. My friends and I have been waiting for native OGG VORBIS support. It is a drag to have to incur the overhead and increased bandwidth requirements to convert to WAV. The option to use LAME to convert to MP3 kind of defeats the purpose of having a OGG library in the first place. If we wanted MP3 we would have encoded in that format in the first place. What are the plans to support the OGG VORBIS format in firmware? I received a prompt response: SB2 has the option of transcoding to FLAC rather than MP3. This gives you the bandwidth benefits of compression without the quality loss of MP3. It's not quite the same as Ogg Vorbis in firmware, but I'm hoping it's a reasonable stopgap measure. Does anyone have any additional information if this support is being seriously considered; and the timeframe that it may be implemented? I would think my friends and I aren't the only ones using this format, esp. with the advent of OGG support in various radio feeds, various portable devices, etc. Is this something that cannot be supported in SB2, and could only be made available in SB3, SB4 or SBx? ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
Gerald B. Cox wrote: I have opened a feature request (Bug 1061) as follows: Native support of OGG VORBIS format in firmware. I've read that FLAC is now supported in Slimserver2. My friends and I have been waiting for native OGG Well we had to wait about a year and buy new hardware to get native FLAC (NOTE: not a complaint; just an observation) so I would anticipate spring 2006 and the SB3. ;-) Personally I think that OGG VORBIS may become 'betacized'. Sure it is better than MP3 but MP3 is the 'VHS' of audio and FLAC/AppleLossless are the two 'DVD' contenders. With the constantly increasing bandwidth and storage capacity those who are serious about quality will go FLAC, Apple Lossless, or even uncompressed and almost everyone else will be happy with the ubiquitous MP3 de facto standard (until, perhaps, that bandwidth and storage curve makes it irrelevant as well. Personally I hope FLAC becomes the lossless de facto standard. In any event I strongly suspect 'better than MP3' lossy formats will slowly loose all traction in the market. -- Daryle A. Tilroe ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] OGG VORBIS Support in Firmware
I do not run FLAC so I am not familiar with the processor requirements. I do know that transcoding to WAV is not insignificant; and am skeptical of the overhead requirements for FLAC. Regardless, the bandwidth requirements for a FLAC transmission is greater than that of ogg. I have problems now with dropouts relating to the transcoding into WAV. I would dispute the fact that ogg is the least used format out there. Alot of my friends have already switched to it, and it has quite a positive buzz in the community - as evidenced by the growing use of ogg in portable devices and streaming audio. Regarding using FLAC for transcoding, it is A solution. I would dispute that it is totally acceptable. If one were to extend that logic, there would be no firmware support for any format other than FLAC in firmware. Obviously, that is not the case. I think it is great that there is FLAC support in firmware for SB2, but that wasn't my question. My question, again, relates to the availability of ogg support in firmware - and if it is possible for that support to be provisioned in SB2. Quoting Jason jason at pagefamily.net Transcoding to FLAC requires very little overhead and is lossless, so what is the problem? Ogg support would be nice but it's without a doubt the least used format out there (even apple lossless seems to have more devotees) and slim is providing a totally accepteable solution (transcoding to a lossless format). ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
