Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
stephanm wrote: > I am looking into buying SD Duet or Sonos and I am still undecided. I > will use a Time capsule as a storage device. I am the opposite of being > an expert (still don t understand what DACs or FLACS are..., but i m > sure i ll learn on those forums) > > It is really difficult to see how SD supports the time capsule and macs > in general. Sonos has in its support page a "setting up time capsule > using Mac or PC. I can t find anything here. > > Can i assume i can do the same on Duet and hence it shouldn t be a > criteria of selection for me? > The main difference between Sonos and Squeezebox is that the Squeezebox needs a server running. The Sonos can get by with just a networked disk, like the timecapsule (if I understand it correctly). Some networked disks (NAS) are able to run the Squeezebox server software, but the time capsule probably isn't, Apple being Apple. You can run the Squeezebox server software on any MAC, Windows or Linux PC. But it has to be on when you play music unless you're content with using Squeeze Network. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Jaffacake can't you get into the sonos forums. You have gone to great lengths to cut down everything Squeezebox even so far as fake reviews on amazon. I really don't know why you do it? Anywhere there is a question on Sonos vs Squeezebox there you are, acting like you are impartial and giving fake info.We know you love Sonos so why don't you leave us alone. -- Nonreality *-If the rule you followed brought you to this, what good is the rule.-* Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
pippin;298758 Wrote: > Interesting. Can you skin that or are you bound to the Web look? > I expect an iPhone skin to look like this ;-) > http://penguinlovesmusic.de/?page_id=7 It's fully skinnable if you have the artistic talent. Sadly I struggle to draw a stickman, so I stick with one of the supplied UIs. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Ben, agreed. It's just that these "everyday" situations can vary dramatically. For example, I've found myself in a quite intense discussion in another thread on whether my way of searching for music to listen to makes sense or not. AFAIK it's something not supported by either Sonos (at least when I last looked at it half a year ago) or SB but if one did, how would you compare/rate on this (in short, I want albums with artwork sorted by artist and if there are multiple artists on an album which is NOT a compilation I want that album to show up under all of them vs. compilations which only show up under compilations/various artists). That's what I call subjective. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but especially if you are used to one system you typically adopt it's way of using it and will quite naturally find issues on solutions with a different philosophy. It's like you will never ever find a German car tester who will prefer a French car over a German one or like American audio testers will find European systems lacking bass while European testers will say American systems lack clarity... -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
pippin;298754 Wrote: > May I add (as before) for my own, very subjective and NOT unbiased > resons that one of the advantages of the SB system is that you are NOT > bound to a certain controller but that there are quite a few > alternatives around... This is certainly an advantage over the Apple option. As for Sonos, I control mine from a Nokia E90 cellphone, it works well. People have tried it from numerous internet tablets etc and they all work without much of an issue...even the iPhone with touchscreen. There's some screenshots here: http://vowe.net/archives/009218.html -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
May I add (as before) for my own, very subjective and NOT unbiased resons that one of the advantages of the SB system is that you are NOT bound to a certain controller but that there are quite a few alternatives around... -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
pippin, I totally appreciate your angle on this. By simply comparing the 2 products side by side in every day situations I can see any obvious differences or similarities between the two but whether these apply in the real world is, in many respects, for the reader to decide. Which is why I'm attempting to consult other Squeezebox owners in the process. Hopefully they'll be able to overlook some of the results and offer real-life workarounds to some of the challenges I may experience as a new owner - like the playback delay you quoted above only applies on my NAS installed SqueezeCenter, the XP one is just fine. If somebody hadn't suggested I tried both then I may have been overly critical of something that only applied in one type of deployment. By doing that extra bit of research, and installing SC on both, I'm gathering some really interesting comparitive information. It's this stuff I would be interested in as a potential buyer. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
One more wack at helping out cybersus: - IF having multi-room, synced, internet-sourced music capability that works flawlessly right now is essential AND IF the extra money is not crucial then it's pretty clear that Sonos is the way to go or - or IF you want a system that sets up more like a TV than a PC (that is if you would find any amount of fiddling or tinkering to be deeply frustrating) AND IF the extra money is not crucial then you probably end up with Sonos but - IF sound quality at each individual zone is the most important thing AND IF syncing is occasional rather than normal use AND IF money matters somewhat then you need to look carefully at both or - IF you actual enjoy a bit of tinkering and like knowing that you are getting exactly what you pay for in each component AND IF you like the idea that you are NOT making a major commitment to a whole system then you probably end up with the Duet At the end of the day--unless you do have the internet-sourced syncing requirement mentioned first above--you probably just need to actually see both systems. The form factors are quite different--many of us in SD world are just thrilled with the new SB Controller and think it justifies our having bought into the whole 'slim', open, high level of community interaction thing that characterizes the SD world--we like the one-hand, looks-like-a-remote, fits-with-the-mp3player-gestalt, replaceable batteries, extra-as-yet-not-activated-hardware-goodies-'hidden'-inside (headphone jack, dac, motion sensor, full processor, etc.). Similarly in the Sonos world, the current owners seem to really like the existing Sonos controller (solid, 'beer-proof', like a small PC, etc.). I bet that if you had one of each for an hour or a day you'd have a pretty clear sense of which you prefer (rather than one being 'better'). btw, BOTH SD and Sonos advocates should be absolutely thrilled they haven't been saddled with a RUSSOUND system! Talk about what can go WRONG when you are in the money-is-no-object, proprietary, bling-over-function world. I've got one of these in a vacation house I bought out west. Absolutely ridiculous. Low-function, high cost six-zone system where, get this, each in-wall 'controller' costs $1,200 and the optional 'remote' weighs more than a pound and has to a LAN cable attached (not kidding!). So just for the controllers and upstairs and downstairs remotes you're into the thing for 10 grand BEFORE even accounting for the 6-zone amp, speakers, etc.!!! In comparison, BOTH SD and Sonos looks like relative models of delightful functionality and frugality! ah well... -- cshaida cshaida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1981 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
jaffacake;298419 Wrote: > > My intention is to change this a little. I'm not going to sprinkle > fairy dust and say that I think one sounds better than the other, or > that ones looks better than the other...these things are all > subjective. But if one unit takes less than one second to start > playback of the same file that it takes the other unit three seconds to > cue up, then we have a fact based reason for preference. > Ben, I don't know you, I don't know your reviews and all the history of this that obviously generates some strong feelings here, but what you infer in this statements is, of course, not true. Measures are used to generate the notion of objectivity but they are not. All these measures are just single statement, that overall do nothing to generate objectivity. You may generate some COMPARABILITY if you do lots of tests to the same set of parameters but that's still not objective. You can generate whatever result you wish by selecting the measures you take, and even the importance of single measures is deeply subjective. For example, I don't care the least whether a song takes one or two seconds to play but I care a lot about how well I can find it. That may be different for more organized people who know the filename and path to each and every track in their collection. Etc etc. You say you work for a car company. So do I so both of us probably know how auto reviews are usually faked in car magazines. They usually even feature a standard set of measures they run on every test but believe me, the results of the tests only depend on their relation to the carmkers' marketing department. There's "Depreciation" to compensate for "Cost", "Comfort" to compensate for "Handling" and plenty of other measures that you can balance however you like. I don't know whether you are open to SB or prefer Sonos or whatever but to state that you are doing a single "objective" test is just smoke and mirrors since there is no such thing. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
jaffacake;298681 Wrote: > I thought I'd touch base on that comment and the word "independent" > which has also been used earlier in the thread. When I claim to be > "independent", I am communicating the fact that I don't have a > financial interest in the discussion. I don't get salaried, > commissioned, bonused or in any way incentivised on the sale of any > hifi or electronic equipment. I have no reason for saying one of these > products has an advantage over another except for if I think it does. You seem to be quite obsessive. Maybe you ought to spend some more time with your wife and children (if you have them). Failing that, how about a doctor? MC -- ModelCitizen Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. SB+ > Bryston 4BSST > PMC OB1s. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
stephanm;298697 Wrote: > Jaffacake,what was that last comment on apple. Do u think they will > launch a product? They already have such a product, have done for some time. They call it the Airport Express with Airtunes. It allows you to play your iTunes music in other rooms of the house, wirelessly and also to sync the rooms together. It's recently been updated to support 802.11n which offers improved bandwidth and wireless reception. This brings it into line with AppleTV and TimeCapsule products which also support 802.11n. I've never actually used that system so I can't comment much more on it, I just know it exists. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
jaffacake;298681 Wrote: > > I totally agree, it's just a shame that Apple declined to take part in > a multi-product digital music group test when I approached them about > it a few weeks ago, i wonder why? ;) Because they prefer to deal with proper journalists on proper popular and respected sites/blogs, and not just some forum wannabe who has risen way about his station? -- autopilot *SlimServer:* 7.0 (Windows XP) *Players:* Squeezebox 3 (main room) / Squeezebox Receiver (bedroom) / Softsqueeze (home office). *Amps:* Cambridge Audio 640a (main room) / Denon MD30 (bedroom) / Logitech 5.1. *Speakers:* Mission 701's (living room) / Kef Cresta 1's (bedroom) / Logitech 5.1's. *Remotes:* Harmony 525 (IR) / 1 Beta SB Controller / 1 Official Sb Controller. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Jesus, you still at it jaffacake? incredible uber-trolling. Stop going on about your bloody review, like you are the master of the universe. No one cares, do you get it... no one. Stop going on like you are some kind of internet god, you got striped of your moderator status on the forums when they realised what a strange little fanboy nutjob you are - and now you expect us to believe, after everything (lies and all - you never even used a beta unit before that cnet review, admit it you naughty little monkey), that you are not biased? Leave us a alone now please, and stop preaching to us in that horrible patronising tone. Sono's rules, you know everything, thanks we realise that now and you can now to write your wonderful review thats going to change the world of technology and our understanding of everything forever. Then maybe you could go for a walk and get some fresh air. -- autopilot *SlimServer:* 7.0 (Windows XP) *Players:* Squeezebox 3 (main room) / Squeezebox Receiver (bedroom) / Softsqueeze (home office). *Amps:* Cambridge Audio 640a (main room) / Denon MD30 (bedroom) / Logitech 5.1. *Speakers:* Mission 701's (living room) / Kef Cresta 1's (bedroom) / Logitech 5.1's. *Remotes:* Harmony 525 (IR) / 1 Beta SB Controller / 1 Official Sb Controller. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
I am looking into buying SD Duet or Sonos and I am still undecided. I will use a Time capsule as a storage device. I am the opposite of being an expert (still don t understand what DACs or FLACS are..., but i m sure i ll learn on those forums) It is really difficult to see how SD supports the time capsule and macs in general. Sonos has in its support page a "setting up time capsule using Mac or PC. I can t find anything here. Can i assume i can do the same on Duet and hence it shouldn t be a criteria of selection for me? Jaffacake,what was that last comment on apple. Do u think they will launch a product? -- stephanm stephanm's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17330 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Siduhe;298580 Wrote: > *To the OP:* these are the Slim community forums, so (most/everyone) > here has already considered the question you are asking and plumped for > the SB/Duet. To that extent, our feedback isn't unbiased or > independent. > I thought I'd touch base on that comment and the word "independent" which has also been used earlier in the thread. When I claim to be "independent", I am communicating the fact that I don't have a financial interest in the discussion. I don't get salaried, commissioned, bonused or in any way incentivised on the sale of any hifi or electronic equipment. I have no reason for saying one of these products has an advantage over another except for if I think it does. It's fair to say that most of the members of these kinds of forums except, for example, Logitech staff and their resellers are independent in a similar way. Most of us act for nobody but ourselves. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I was one of those who was extremely critical of the way > you chose to approach and review the Duet. Not worth going over in > detail, but not so much what you said, as the way you chose to respond > afterwards as rob53ben and jaffacake. > To that extent, you have to accept a level of background suspicion > here as to your motives. I think an acknowledgement that things could > have been handled better would go a long way to alieviating that > concern. > For the purposes of transparency, I'll answer that. Basically, jaffacake is my nickname. I own the domain names and my best mate calls me 'jaffa' to my face when we're in the pub - I would turn around if you shouted it in the street. I write my blog under the pen-name of Jaffa. On all online forums and other registration based communities, jaffacake is my first choice login name. When unavailable, I use my second choice of ro53ben; which is actually my car registration plate here in the UK - an alphanumeric form of my real name Ben Rose. So, when I registered on these forums some years ago to research the product, i registered as jaffacake as the name was available. On CNet, there was already a user called jaffacake so I was forced to go with the 2nd choice. If possible, I would happily have posted the review as jaffacake. My forum nick varies from place to place purely on availability of the nickname and there's no ulterior motives whatsoever. > > That said, I haven't seen anything recently that suggests to me > you're trying to do anything other than what you say - review side by > side and in detail the two systems. > If these forums are as friendly and helpful as we always hold them out > to be, people here need to get over it and pitch in to answer your > questions and help you out. > Thanks, I am genuinely just the messenger here, whether people choose to believe it or not and I have in the past made a concerted effort to keep things on topic. Sincere apologies to the OP of this thread that things have inadvertently gone off at a tangent on this one. Thankfully I have managed to touch base with a couple of SqueezeBox owners offline who are hopefully going to help provide me with additional 'real world' ownership experiences which I may include within my review. Likewise, I am sharing my experiences and indeed have made numerous posts around these forums to help people out with queries they have raised. > > I think it was Robin that had a conversation with one of the Sonos > admins when this all kicked off and both of them agreed there's a > danger in taking this too seriously. Some of the Sonos people feel > there's a history of Sim posters Sonos-bashing on their forums - not > recently but look at the archives and they may have a point. > I think the key here is to recognise that we may have genuine, but conflicting, opinions about the products. It's critical for us to stay focussed on the products and not the people, personal attacks don't help anybody and just drag the community down. > > We'll all read your review with interest, and my only advice (entirely > unsolicited) is that you'll catch more flies with honey than with > vinegar. ;-) I totally agree, it's just a shame that Apple declined to take part in a multi-product digital music group test when I approached them about it a few weeks ago, i wonder why? ;) -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't develop this way, but since it has, here's my 0.02. *To the OP:* these are the Slim community forums, so (most/everyone) here has already considered the question you are asking and plumped for the SB/Duet. To that extent, our feedback isn't unbiased or independent. We can tell you why we chose the way we did, and the things that we like about the two systems, but we have our clear preferences. If you've asked the same question on the Sonos forums, and I hope you have, you'll get the alternative view. For myself, when I was choosing between the two systems, I had a choice between going with Sonos or picking the SB and upgrading my speakers. The cost of Sonos then was a huge factor as was the fact (at the time) it didn't play FLAC format (open source/lossless codec) which I had decided I wanted to use. I also like configuring and fiddling with my setup, and I have since very much brought into the Slim, opensource, community driven approach. I don't want a closed system - I want to be able to configure the services I use and if something comes into the program or player that I don't like, I want to be able to roll back to an earlier version. The best advice I can give is to work out if there are any dealbreakers with either system. If not, download Squeezecenter (which comes with a free software player/emulator) and run it through your files. Have a play and see if you like the style/features. If yes, buy an SB or Duet, try it for 30 days, and if you don't like it, send it back and buy the Sonos. If Sonos offers a 30 day money back guarantee, you could buy that and trial it instead. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I was one of those who was extremely critical of the way you chose to approach and review the Duet. Not worth going over in detail, but not so much what you said, as the way you chose to respond afterwards as rob53ben and jaffacake. To that extent, you have to accept a level of background suspicion here as to your motives. I think an acknowledgement that things could have been handled better would go a long way to alieviating that concern. That said, I haven't seen anything recently that suggests to me you're trying to do anything other than what you say - review side by side and in detail the two systems. If these forums are as friendly and helpful as we always hold them out to be, people here need to get over it and pitch in to answer your questions and help you out. I think it was Robin that had a conversation with one of the Sonos admins when this all kicked off and both of them agreed there's a danger in taking this too seriously. Some of the Sonos people feel there's a history of Sim posters Sonos-bashing on their forums - not recently but look at the archives and they may have a point. We'll all read your review with interest, and my only advice (entirely unsolicited) is that you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. ;-) -- Siduhe Siduhe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
jaffacake wrote: > mvalera;298371 Wrote: > >> Here's the story. >> >> Sonos' initial setup is easier for the novice for wireless, but if you >> use a wired connection that is a moot point. >> >> > > Not at all true when we're talking about controller connectivity > issues. These forums are full of such problems and the controllers > can't be wired. > Forums are usually full of issues. Not many people take the trouble of coming 'round to say everything works fine. We'd be flooded otherwise. BTW, no wireless issues here unless I go up on the roof. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Ok, how's this then... Nothing you have said in this forum, or any other, was not completely tainted by obvious bias. This is not the place for it. Read your email. Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
mvalera;298438 Wrote: > Jaffa, nothing you have said here even comes close to brushing on the > truth. > > I have sent you an email, please follow my request. > > Thanks, > > Mike I see no untruths. I believe your email went to a redundant address and bounced off my mail gateway. I've updated my address on the system here now, you may wish to resend. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Jaffa, nothing you have said here even comes close to brushing on the truth. I have sent you an email, please follow my request. Thanks, Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
SilverRS8;298415 Wrote: > Judging from your posts on your personal site, the sonos forum and the > SD forum I think it is not fair to say your independent. You are very > much pro Sonos. Which ofcourse you are entitled to. Maybe the > synchronization fits your needs best and Sonos is the better choice. If > you would only once ever admit that Squeeze products are the better > product of choice in various cases I would believe your 'I'm > independent' statement. But for now I've only see you review why Sonos > is so much better than Logitech. Thats not reviewing by facts. Thats > reviewing by personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that but don't say > and publish like your independent. > There's a huge difference between having a personal preference and being biased. You often read reviews on gadget sites and the like that say that the Duet is good, but they PREFER the Sonos although it costs more. It doesn't mean they're biased, it just means that they've used both and have a particular reason for liking Sonos more. Sadly, they often don't justify this reason or back it up with facts. My intention is to change this a little. I'm not going to sprinkle fairy dust and say that I think one sounds better than the other, or that ones looks better than the other...these things are all subjective. But if one unit takes less than one second to start playback of the same file that it takes the other unit three seconds to cue up, then we have a fact based reason for preference. Like, for example, the album art appears almost immediately on the Squeezebox controller screen when scrolling through albums. The Sonos can take a second or so to display the art and, even then, will only display one sleeve at a time. These are important facts and could influence a purchase. On a contrasting note, the Duet Squeezebox Controller can only be charged when in the cradle at an almost vertical angle - there's no separate charger. This makes it almost impossible to use when the battery is flat, another possible factor. I have many preferences here, and those for one product might outweigh another...but don't ever assume that makes me in any way biased. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
jaffacake;298410 Wrote: > I don't work for Slim Devices, Logitech, Sonos, or indeed anybody in the > hifi industry. I'm a simple, independent, IT geek who sits in a cube all > day working for a car company. Judging from your posts on your personal site, the sonos forum and the SD forum I think it is not fair to say your independent. You are very much pro Sonos. Which ofcourse you are entitled to. Maybe the synchronization fits your needs best and Sonos is the better choice. If you would only once ever admit that Squeeze products are the better product of choice in various cases I would believe your 'I'm independent' statement. But for now I've only see you review why Sonos is so much better than Logitech. Thats not reviewing by facts. Thats reviewing by personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that but don't say and publish like your independent. For the majority of people, not wanting to sync internet stations over multiple rooms, or people who only need one or a low number of streaming audio devices or people in non-US countries not being able to use the most important services I think Logitech is cleary the winner. I second also that th controller is much better in ergonomics. It can be controlled with one hand and looks very good. Frank -- SilverRS8 Author of -'AlbumCatalogCreator' (http://www.vanholt.nl/acc/acc.htm)- for SqueezeCenter & SlimServer SilverRS8's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
mvalera;298371 Wrote: > Here's the story. > > Sonos' initial setup is easier for the novice for wireless, but if you > use a wired connection that is a moot point. > Not at all true when we're talking about controller connectivity issues. These forums are full of such problems and the controllers can't be wired. I have both systems in my living room right now, I'm testing them side by side. I have full retail units, purchased sealed in a store, not battered old press test kit with old firmware. I've taken a lot of criticism prior to today on various forums, including this one. I was accused of delivering Duet criticism based on a very limited use experience with early code. This lead to many, very personal, insults which the forum moderators here refused to address. So, to appease the critics, I've gone back to day zero. I have both pieces of kit, in my own home, on my own network, with my own music library. I've got the very latest production release of SqueezeCentre installed on both a Windows PC and my Infrant ReadyNas NV+ alongside all the Sonos kit. Ultimately, as requested by Logitech staff, I will be updating the cNet review I made a little while ago to carry more facts and accuracy. Which machine will start playing an internet radio station fastest? Who has the best sync? Which system can skip tracks backwards and forwards on demand without a delay? Which system can display album art on screen whilst browsing? Which system integrates with iTunes the best? Do you really need a server machine? How do the two controllers compare? These are the kind of tests I will be running in a review that I intend to publish shortly. I don't work for Slim Devices, Logitech, Sonos, or indeed anybody in the hifi industry. I'm a simple, independent, IT geek who sits in a cube all day working for a car company. I'm unbiased and come to the argument presenting only facts from real life experiences from ownership of BOTH systems. They both have their advantages and the best solution would have elements of both systems. I don't intend to draw any direct conclusions, I will simply let the reader decide which system meets their requirements best. cybersus (or any other interested party) - If you have any specific tests you'd like me to run, then by all means let me know - but I do recommend you, and any other potential buyers, delay purchase until I release my results. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
You don't have RSS feeds and Podcast on Sonos -- Kim.T HP T5700 Thin Client running FreeNAS + SqueezeCenter 7.0.1 Synology DS-101j / Samsung SpinPoint T133 HD400LD 400 GB - now with 92 mm fan TViX HD M-4000PA / Samsung SpinPoint T133 HD400LD 400 GB Sony HX750 HDD recorder Kim.T's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15059 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
I looked at both when I needed to replace my audiotrons (a now-defunct
precursor product). I ended up going the squeezebox route and am quite
happy (I now have 5 of them around the house with a variety of
amps+speakers and powered speakers). I continue to hear good things
though about Sonos so you probably wouldn't go all wrong if you ended
up there (but you might take a look at olive audio if the sleekness
factor is high on your list of criteria).
If you search you'll find a fair amount of info comparing sonos and SB
on this forum. Some data points:
- audio quality - nobody seriously claims that the actual audio quality
from sonos is better. Take a gander at he audiophile forum attached
hereto for more on this.
- plug and play - this is where sonos has an advantage. For those who
are not willing to tinker at all sonos is probably the safer route. I
am not a programmer but I kind of like to know how things work so I get
some pleasure out of fiddling a bit with the whole thing.
- proprietary - this cuts both ways. For Sonos this allows them to
provide a 'complete' out of the box solution. It also means that they
are completely responsible for every piece of the puzzle--good from a
support perspective, maybe not so good from an innovation and product
development perspective. THE SB approach is to just do what they do
and rely on all the other extent stuff (PC, LAN, routers, amps, etc.)
to get a working system. This can make troubleshooting more difficult
with the SB for someone who doesn't understand much about their PC or
their router or their LAN etc. It also makes it possible to really
advance one piece of the puzzle dramatically as per the new
controller.
- remote - the Sonos remote is no longer 'better' than the SB
controller. It may be the case that as a matter of taste some might
prefer one over the other but there is no longer any way for Sons to
claim 'better' on a fact basis. As a matter of my taste I think the
form factor of the SB controller is MUCH better--to me the sonos remote
now seems clunky and old fashioned--you need to use two hands, it
doesn't really fit in your pocket, etc. There's also a number of
hardware elements of the controller that are not yet in use. A good
bet that it will keep getting snazzier over the next 6-12 months.
- Multi-room - This another area where it appears that there really is
a difference between SB and Sono--but it is only in one particular
subset of use which may or may not matter to you. There are two layers
to a multi-room system: synced or independent. Functioning
independently (playing different music in different rooms from a single
source) the SBs work great. Syncing (playing the same music in more
than one room) also works well with the SBs as long as you are playing
music from a music source on your LAN. So the material difference
comes if you want to sync music from internet sources (internet radio,
pandora, rhapsody, etc.)--here it appears that Sonos works better.
Again, I've got a 5 room system working now and if functions splendidly
for me because the only time I want to sync all 5 rooms is when I'm
having a party and then I don't want to rely on internet connectivity
anyway so will play playlists from my server anyway (which works fine).
If this is important to you check out another thread on this specific
topic.
Overall, I do not agree with the 'sonos is better but it's also more
expensive' Money wasn't particularly an issue for me when I made my
decision. I like the SB approach better ('just do what we do and do it
really well'), I get a charge out of the community that exists around
the product, I like a number of the plugins developed by the community
and I think the controller is now way better (again, for my taste) than
the sonos remote.
--
cshaida
cshaida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1981
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Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
This thread will probably give you more than you want for the pro's and con's of both products (both facts and opinions). http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1006811 -- jaw5279 jaw5279's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16241 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
Here's the story. Sonos' initial setup is easier for the novice for wireless, but if you use a wired connection that is a moot point. Sound quality between the two units is basically equivalent. We can play a different song to each player, or you can sync them all together. We're a MUCH better value. We're $350.00 USD less than their least expensive one room solution. And we're officially "Kick Ass": http://www.maximumpc.com/article/logitech_squeezebox_duet Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Business Unit slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
cybersus;298181 Wrote: > Anybody out there research/own both? I have been looking at sonos for a > while, and just saw duet advertised. Sonos certainly more expensive. > Sonos says their remote is nicer, and that it is easier to set up a > multi-room set up. > > my house is wired with ethernet and has wireless too. I have several > really nice sound systems throughout house. I would like to put all > our music on a networkable hard drive. Can different music be played > simultaneously in different rooms from just one hard drive?? > > So, what's the difference in the two?? Sound quality equal? Duet is > 48hz--is sonos 96? > > thanks!! Hi, I have both system installed in my company. Sound wise, I prefer the Slimdevices and btw, the SONUS is not 96kHz - no advantage over the Slimdevices. The SONUS system is better integrated and gives you an analog input as well on each client - that can be important if you want to play some of your older equipment through the system. The user interface is very nice and easy to understand. One can use NAPSTER here in Europe - The Suqeezenetwork is not really nice to us Europeans :-) Even so, it sounds like the SONUS is the the winner, I still prefer the Slimdevices to work with. First of all, I also have the Transporter as well and that one does 96kHz, second argument is that the Slimdevices are much smaller and if you buy yourself a small amp from Project (with Flying Mole Class-D), you get a really neat solution. Ah, and of course the Slimdevices are cheaper by far. I must admit that I also like to be part of the development of Slimdevices. I don't remember any other system that is so open and takes so much input from the community. It's a sort of fun and a thrill to deal with such new things. SONUS is more boring. You switch in on and it works. I hope that does not sound too paranoid... Best regards Karl-Heinz -- finkaudio finkaudio's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16642 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
cybersus;298181 Wrote: > So, what's the difference in the two?? I was in a similar position and almost bought a Sonos system on more than one occasion but I wasn't able to convinced myself to pull the trigger. pippin;298191 Wrote: > The big edge for the duet is that it's a much more open system. There's > tons of 3rd party plugins This is the primary reasons I decided on the duet, with cost being a close second. I'm more than pleased with the decision and can't wait to add a couple more Squeezebox receivers. -- Echo Echo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
cybersus;298181 Wrote: > Anybody out there research/own both? I have been looking at sonos for a > while, and just saw duet advertised. Sonos certainly more expensive. > Sonos says their remote is nicer, and that it is easier to set up a > multi-room set up. > IMHO that's wrong. I cannot comment on the functionality but the Sonos remote is much more clumsy and heavy than the SBC. I don't see how multi-room setups are difficult on SBC, you can selectively sync players. The big edge for the duet is that it's a much more open system. There's tons of 3rd party plugins for the server, some alternative control modes - there skins or applications to use Nokis 770/800 devices, Windows Mobile devices and of course iPhone/iTouch as a remote for the SqueezeBox, so if you need more than one remote you don't need to buy Controllers for each of your rooms if you own one of these devices. Overall, due to the open architecture there's MUCH more potential in the SqueezeBox system, maybe the Sonos stuff is a bit more integrated and finished. In the end it boils down to what kind of customer you are: If you are the "Bang & Olufsen-Buyer" kind of guy who wants a highly expensive closed system that is highly integrated and comes with a philosophy attached: go Sonos If you are the kind of guy who buys 6 components from 8 different companies to build the perfect HiFi experience: go SlimDevices. -- pippin --- see iPeng at penguinlovesmusic.com pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs. sonos
cybersus;298181 Wrote: > Can different music be played simultaneously in different rooms from > just one hard drive?? > Yes, you can play independently or synced. For any of the squeezebox players you will need the SqueezeCenter software running somewhere on the network though. > > So, what's the difference in the two?? Sound quality equal? Duet is > 48hz--is sonos 96? > I can't comment on the Sonos SQ as I've never listened to it, but the SB players have really excellent sound, plenty of people use them in seriously expensive setups. I doubt you'll find better easily. Lots more info here: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/BeginnersGuide -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=47145 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
There is also a rather suspicious review on Amazon.co.uk -- James_B James_B's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11309 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
MuckleEck;285386 Wrote: > The most galling thing about Ben Rose's post on CNET and his posts on > here are that, as a person resident in the UK he can't legally use > Rhapsody/Pandora etc so why state that the Sonos can stream to more > than 3 rooms and the SB can't when in his case it is irrelevant. None of it matters to him, it is just something to slam the Squeezebox on. He is a punk with a chip on his shoulder about Squeezebox and is afraid if people use it, his beloved Sonos will suffer. I really wonder if he might work for them, he has stuff all over his site about them. -- Nonreality *-If the rule you followed brought you to this, what good is the rule.-* Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
I posted a comment on his blog asking him about 'his' Duet and he claims he was 'loaned' a pre-release unit from a friend. Curiously he's now closed the blog entry to any further comments... I really cant understand why anyone would go to so much trouble to bad mouth a product. Life's far too short... -- mick_w http://www.ulverston.myzen.co.uk/mini-itx/ mick_w's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6526 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
The most galling thing about Ben Rose's post on CNET and his posts on here are that, as a person resident in the UK he can't legally use Rhapsody/Pandora etc so why state that the Sonos can stream to more than 3 rooms and the SB can't when in his case it is irrelevant. -- MuckleEck Alasdair 3 SB3s - Linn - Acoustat - AudioEngine 2 - Cambridge Audio 640R - Mordaunt Short MuckleEck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11301 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Yeah it's really a shame that he has such an ego to be right about everything that he can't stand to see another product compete with his beloved Sonos. It's too bad because he has probably caused a few people to miss out on a great product that they might have really enjoyed. I don't understand it because from what I can tell they are both great products with different approaches. He must be pretty young and takes it as an affront that people might like something other than his choice. Thats the problem with reviews at sites, one person can have a vendetta against a product for whatever reason and can influence people with lies and partial facts. He came here and got some small problems he could use to make it sound like they were huge problems then posted as if he actually owned one. Then posted a link back to here to make people think he had found this site to back up the make believe problems on his make believe Duet and used a make believe job to give himself and his review some credibility. -- Nonreality *-If the rule you followed brought you to this, what good is the rule.-* Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I read the CNet review... The guys name is Ben Rose (aka Jafacake, RO53BEN) and he's been a Sonos user since 2005 with over 2500 posts on the Sonos forum. http://www.jaffacake.net/bensblog.nsf/dx/sonos---update http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/sonoszp100 Looks like he just wanted to do a hatchet job on the Duet Rather than a "freelance consultant to some UK based hifi resellers and publications" he's actually an IT administrator with a rather large "ego", see his old blog: http://www.jaffacake.net/bensblog.nsf/dx/about-me His CNet profile also claims he owns a Duet, which is strange as they weren't available in the UK at the time of his review. Its annoying he has abused the good nature of this forum and the open attitude of the slim device personnel to attempt to rubbish the product. -- mick_w http://www.ulverston.myzen.co.uk/mini-itx/ mick_w's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6526 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
I believe that this person is the same as a person that was asking very pointed questions about very specific things the SB did not do as well as the Sonos system. They were questions that the answers were known ahead of time to make it look more natural and put the Duet in a bad light. This post is at Cnet in the comments after a great review on the Duet. I don't believe this person has even used a Duet and used this forum to try to convince people on moving to the Sonos system. Anyway read for yourself, it seems very underhanded to me when you link them together the way this person did. Alludes they are a hifi consultant and acts like WPA security is a bad and unusual thing. All the wording seems planned to scare non technical people away from the duet and squeezebox altogether. They throw in a bit of very condescending good points about the SB, just enough to make people think they are judging it fairly. It all sounds like a certain person asking "innocent advise in this thread to me. -User Summary "Not Entirely Convinced" by ro53ben (see profile) - March 5, 2008 Pros: Improvement on existing product offerings, low budget alternative Cons: Setup woes, synchronisation problems, Rhapsody limitations 41 out of 142 people found this review helpful. hide (x)Full user opinion I'm not entirely convinced. As a freelance consultant to some UK based hifi resellers and publications I've been following the Duet closely since it was announced. Previously Sonos has always been very high up on my recommended list...a true 5 star product. Duet certainly improves on the previously very limited control mechanism offering Squeeze owners a glimpse of the full Sonos experience. Looking into it a little closer, you can see it still offers some of the same negatives that all Slim products have come packaged with. Setup still isn't as simple as it could be, juggling with wifi encryption keys and fiddly interfaces makes it a little more like Plug & Pray that ease of use. The Slim communities are full of similar setup woes, with even hardened geeks getting it all wrong at times. One particular thread from the community is worth a read: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 It compares some of the market leading Sonos functions with Duet and shows where Slim have fallen short. Music services like Rhapsody can only be played back in 3 rooms and can't be synchronised. Same goes for internet radio, so your favourite radio station will echo annoyingly between your kitchen and Den areas. Sonos can play these services in up to 32 zones in perfect sync. As Slim Devices Developer andyg said in their own forum "We can't do that" "this is not possible because our server is open source". But will it do it in the future, andyg? "don't get your hopes up about that." Ironically the whole open source nature that attracted geeks to Squeezebox is what is holding it back when it tries to compete effectively in the market place. Years since the Sonos launch and it still can't sync zones efficiently which is what attracted people to Sonos in the first place. Delay between the players can be such that you feel you're listening not in your home but in the Grand Canyon...which kinda describes the gap between Duet and Sonos when it comes to core functionality. Even the new controller falls way short of the full control offered by Sonos in their handheld controller which is totally intuitive and easy to pick up for new owners. If people just wanted to put their digital music in different rooms of the home with a remote control, they could just buy a Bose Sounddock - the clear winner at the low end of the market. But if they want full control and a whole house experience, Sonos is still going to take the gold medal. So where does this leave Slim? Well, I guess the guys over at Gizmodo cover it well. 'because of the Linux-friendly nature of Squeeze, the "tweaker or hacker type" will have lots of fun'. Certainly more fun than it is trying to train retail staff how to set it up. - -- Nonreality *-If the rule you followed brought you to this, what good is the rule.-* Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;267171 Wrote: > Correct, gapless is not currently supported when synced. Alan has some > plans to possibly fix this in a future version, but it will be a lot of > work. How much is a "lot of work"? Any timescales? A month? 6mths? A year? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
thanks for clarfying. Will look forward to the future feature. -- gbrandwood gbrandwood's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15419 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Correct, gapless is not currently supported when synced. Alan has some plans to possibly fix this in a future version, but it will be a lot of work. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Can you please confirm, even if playing from a local SlimServer installation, that you cannot achieve gapless playback with a multi-room party (synced) implementation? I understand it's a no-no for Internet radio or subscription service, but for local playback? This is perhaps a crucial point for many people. Thanks in advance. -- gbrandwood gbrandwood's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15419 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
SuperQ wrote: > > I will disagree on the "Not open source" statement. The software > source is open, but it's not "Free Software" as the FSF defines it. > There are many examples of "Open Source" applications that require > payment, don't allow modification, etc. (A number of PHP apps for > example). This is incorrect. You should re-read the Open Source Definition: http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd Pretty much the only difference between the Free Software and Open Source movements are their motivations (political vs. economic). - Marc ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
On Feb 7, 2008 8:40 PM, peterw < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The source code for the Controller is available, but it is NOT open > source. You mean it's not Open Source. It is open source. Ben ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
peterw;266886 Wrote: > SqueezeCenter is Open Source (http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd), but > the Controller software (the top layer, the "Jive" code) is released > under a very restrictive (IMO) proprietary license. See > http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?JiveArchitecture -- the Logitech > Public Source license > (http://svn.slimdevices.com/trunk/jive/src/pkg/jive/LICENSE?root=Jive&view=markup) > is what I'm talking about. > > For instance, the Logitech Public Source license does not allow me to > share a modified version directly with anyone other than Logitech, and > it tries to claim for Logitech the right to knock on my door and demand > any changes I've made to the Jive software for my own personal use. > > The source code for the Controller is available, but it is NOT open > source. > > -Peter Hrm, ok, I guess I'll have to read the Logitech license a bit more to understand it. I had thought it was more of a mozilla-based license. If your reading of it is right, that sucks a lot more than I thought it did. Kinda a shame. I will disagree on the "Not open source" statement. The software source is open, but it's not "Free Software" as the FSF defines it. There are many examples of "Open Source" applications that require payment, don't allow modification, etc. (A number of PHP apps for example). -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Pale Blue Ego wrote: > Needing multi-room sync complicates things, because that is easier to > do with a local server, which he does not want to run. > > His is a rather specialized problem and he should definitely choose the > platform that best fits those specialized needs. To which I'd suggest a whole house speaker switching setup with a single device feeding a old-school common amp. I've never seen a Sonos, but it sure sounds like a computer to me. Don't look for a computer solution. Look at what the AV guys have been installing for 40 years. Its not like any solution is going to be audiophile. Its not duet vs sonos, that's the wrong question. Its what solution solves the problem, and I think its neither of those -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
JJZolx;266889 Wrote: > I think both products are definitely _NOT_ for you. You lose most of > the functionality of the devices by limiting yourself to poor quality > Internet radio and pay services. Why spend hundreds and hundreds of > dollars for that? I think this person is trying to please his whole family without it becoming a tech support nightmare for himself. He says they have enough trouble keeping their PCs running, so the idea of no local server is compelling. Also, his kids want to hear the latest music and Rhapsody offers that. Needing multi-room sync complicates things, because that is easier to do with a local server, which he does not want to run. His is a rather specialized problem and he should definitely choose the platform that best fits those specialized needs. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
SuperQ;266405 Wrote: > The Squeezebox Controller (Duet remote) was fully open source last I > checked out the code from the subversion server. :-) > SqueezeCenter is Open Source (http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd), but the Controller software (the top layer, the "Jive" code) is released under a very restrictive (IMO) proprietary license. See http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?JiveArchitecture -- the Logitech Public Source license (http://svn.slimdevices.com/trunk/jive/src/pkg/jive/LICENSE?root=Jive&view=markup) is what I'm talking about. For instance, the Logitech Public Source license does not allow me to share a modified version directly with anyone other than Logitech, and it tries to claim for Logitech the right to knock on my door and demand any changes I've made to the Jive software for my own personal use. The source code for the Controller is available, but it is NOT open source. -Peter -- peterw http://www.tux.org/~peterw/ free plugins: http://www.tux.org/~peterw/#slim AllQuiet BlankSaver BottleRocket FuzzyTime SaverSwitcher SleepFade StatusFirst SyncOptions VolumeLock peterw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2107 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
The funny thing is, the fact that I don't have a Sonos system has absolutely nothing to do with cost. Its simply that I refuse to have such a device operating on 2.4GHz independently of my Wi-Fi network. Those frequencies are simply way too busy (at least in urban areas) already. -- shawkie shawkie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3751 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
zigzag;266758 Wrote: > If I don't want to run a server (and I definitely don't) then I can play > Pandora songs in as many room simultaneously as I want, Rhapsody songs > in up to 3 rooms and internet radio in just 1. > I don't see why you can't play internet radio in as many rooms as you like, even the same station. It just won't be perfectly synced. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Thanks for all the information in such a short time. I learned a lot though it was not as straight forward as I hoped. If I don't want to run a server (and I definitely don't) then I can play Pandora songs in as many room simultaneously as I want, Rhapsody songs in up to 3 rooms and internet radio in just 1. The number of exceptions means that my biggest fear in all of this is that I will end up being the full time music system operator. I guess I'll get to know the Sonos better to see if I can go with it without adding to my workload at home. But, I must commend this forum on the openness on the part of the community and the company. If I was more techie, I'd be hanging around here. Thanks again zz -- zigzag zigzag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Peter;266730 Wrote: > There are many SB functions that aren't matched by Sonos, just check the > > plugin list. > > Regards, > Peter Sorry, I was targetting the response at the OPs and his specific requirements for Rhapsody and multi-room sync. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
jaffacake wrote: > It seems very > much like you may get what you pay for but if you're on a limited > budget, SD will offer a feature-reduced equivalent that may suit > smaller households. > There are many SB functions that aren't matched by Sonos, just check the plugin list. Regards, Peter ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
I think if you were to search and replace on the above summary and replace 'multi-room' with 'synchronous multi-room' it seems about right. I happen to have 4 SBs so have a fully functioning 'multi-room' system. I hardly ever want to have all of these 'synched' so for me the SBs 'multi-room' capability is quite good--and you'd have a hard time convincing me that (again since for me sync is not part of my multi-room requirement) Sonos is better-except-just-a-bit-more-expensive (since I did look at it quite and was quite willing to spend the extra money but I thought--for me--it just wasn't as good. I could explain but it included a variety of factors that are likely not to be generally interesting (anybody want to guess why wire lath and plaster is a MUCH bigger problem for Sonos than SB? for instance). Given that the originator of this thread made it clear that for him synching was a BIG part of his multi-room requirement the summary probably works well for him. -- cshaida cshaida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1981 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
So to summarise for the OP: Sonos has always been better at the multi-room and controller thing, but Slim Devices are hoping to close this gap with the new Duet product. Although newer than Sonos, it doesn't actually offer feature equivalence. For example, going multi-room has considerable limitations due to it not being a peer2peer mesh like Sonos. This affects synchronisation - audio may be out of sync between rooms. This affects gapless playback, so classical music and other continuous recordings may be interrupted whilst listening. This affects Internet radio, which can't be synced between linked SD players. So Slim Devices offer a good digital audio product and improved control when using the new Duet, but for true multi-room it seems that Sonos, whilst more expensive, has a significant technology lead. It seems very much like you may get what you pay for but if you're on a limited budget, SD will offer a feature-reduced equivalent that may suit smaller households. Whilst SD used to be the open-source option, more of the product is becoming locked into closed firmware in an effort to keep up with critical requirements in the market place such as online music services. This makes it more relevant than ever to just compare the products directly on bang for buck value. If you don't want the "it just works" multi-room function that Sonos offer at a small premium then there are other products like SD and Roku to fill that gap. Edit to add: Incidentally, I work for no company in the market place. I run email for a car company, I just love music :) -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
The explanation given earlier in the thread was that SqueezeCenter is open source, and there are problems having the DRM decrypter be part of an open source package. That's why it's okay to have it in the player firmware, since that's not open source. On Feb 7, 2008 8:05 AM, shawkie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The DRM problem might be more difficult. I don't really know what the > restrictions are. Presumably you can get the digital audio from > Rhapsody out of the Squeezebox? What stops you feeding that back onto > the network as a decrypted stream? > ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
jaffacake;266650 Wrote: > Shawkie: What were you on about then? If players are synced they lose the ability to play gaplessly. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
autopilot;266649 Wrote: > Dont panic, all SB's do gapless just fine ;) Shawkie: What were you on about then? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
jaffacake;266643 Wrote: > Slim doesn't offer gapless playback? What about Pink Floyd? Dont panic, all SB's do gapless just fine ;) -- autopilot SLIMSERVER:[/B] 7.0 APLHA (WINDOWS XP) + ALIENBBC, SLIMSCROBBLER & LAST.FM. *AMP:* CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 640A (LIVING ROOM) / DENON MD30 (BEDROOM). *SPEAKERS:* MISSION 701'S (LIVING ROOM) / KEF CRESTA 1'S (BEDROOM). *REMOTE:* T-MOBILE MDA VARIO / HARMONY 525 (IR) / *BETA TESTING SB DUET X 2 [B]Clients:* 1 Squeezebox 3 + Softsqueeze + Squeezebox Receiver. 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/domrevans/) autopilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1763 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
shawkie;266598 Wrote: > I also think that a system where audio is "pushed" from the server (like > the Sonos) would be much better for whole house synching than the > approach used by SlimServer/SqueezeCenter. We could have proper > gapless, synched playback and we could have an audio input on the > server for true place-shifting. > Slim doesn't offer gapless playback? What about Pink Floyd? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
It's convoluted but I suppose Rhapsody PC client running UPNP can talk to a slimserver which in turn streams to multiple clients ? I know that's how Roku support Rhapsody Squeezenetwork is obviously much better -- y360 y360's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10150 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
JJZolx;266479 Wrote: > Why not? That would seem to be the ovious way of doing it, particularly > if synching and whole house audio are a priority. I also think that a system where audio is "pushed" from the server (like the Sonos) would be much better for whole house synching than the approach used by SlimServer/SqueezeCenter. We could have proper gapless, synched playback and we could have an audio input on the server for true place-shifting. I agree that when SlimServer started out that was probably impossible but now we have 802.11n and 5.0GHz and QoS I'm not at all sure. I think there is now the opportunity to match every aspect of the Sonos system without resorting to proprietry protocols. The DRM problem might be more difficult. I don't really know what the restrictions are. Presumably you can get the digital audio from Rhapsody out of the Squeezebox? What stops you feeding that back onto the network as a decrypted stream? In the meantime, while I wait for Sonos to move to 802.11n or SlimDevices to move from "pull" to "push", I have my own solution which would work fine for people wanting to listen to the same synched Rhapsody stream in as many rooms as they like. Take the digital output from the Squeezebox and wire it to all your rooms. Simple. If you don't like wires then feed it into a video sender (go for 5.8GHz to avoid interference). You can still use a SqueezeController (or whatever) anywhere on your wireless network to control it. In fact, why bother with a Squeezebox at all? Just build a nice little nano-ITX box and run SqueezeCentre and Softsqueeze on it. Plug in a video sender and listen to it anywhere. -- shawkie shawkie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3751 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
jaffacake;266587 Wrote: > There's no DRM on internet radio dude... Rhapsody is a proprietory music service though. And plenty of people want DRM even on internet radio, especially the US Senate - google the Perform Act and DRM. The concern is (IIRC) partly driven by stuff like 'this' (http://www.popcatcher.com/). -- Siduhe Siduhe's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
snarlydwarf;266490 Wrote: > My guess: DRM. > > Sending an stream of decrypted audio over a wire or 802.11 interface is > probably a no-no. Sending it over a proprietary encrypted 2.4G > microwave connection is probably okay. > There's no DRM on internet radio dude... -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
snarlydwarf;266490 Wrote: > My guess: DRM. > > Sending an stream of decrypted audio over a wire or 802.11 interface is > probably a no-no. Sending it over a proprietary encrypted 2.4G > microwave connection is probably okay. > > Sonos doesn't use standard 802.11 for their network, they use their own > transport layer. For some applications (ie, appeasing the silly music > companies), this can be an advantage. For "polluting 2.4G even more > than my neighbors" this is a drawback. 2.4 just has a huge noise floor. Let alone firing up the microwave (and all aren't as tight as we are led to believe), which basically is a barrage jammer ;) Gotta love a magnetron. I am starting to pollute 5GHZ and 5.8 GHZ myself ;) -- jeffmc JeffMc Pacific Northwest jeffmc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11172 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
JJZolx;266479 Wrote: > Why not? That would seem to be the ovious way of doing it, particularly > if synching and whole house audio are a priority. My guess: DRM. Sending an stream of decrypted audio over a wire or 802.11 interface is probably a no-no. Sending it over a proprietary encrypted 2.4G microwave connection is probably okay. Sonos doesn't use standard 802.11 for their network, they use their own transport layer. For some applications (ie, appeasing the silly music companies), this can be an advantage. For "polluting 2.4G even more than my neighbors" this is a drawback. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;266370 Wrote: > I don't claim to know anything about the Sonos architecture but I would > guess they only have one connection to the Rhapsody audio and then > transport the decrypted audio within their closed network to each > player. We can't do that, so each player needs a separate connection > to the Rhapsody server. > Right, they simply have one stream coming into the Sonos, then they synchronize that (because they are using their own 2.4GHZ mesh network to the other zones. By doing that, they can enforce a QoS for the sync. The streams sent to each zone are not in the open, BTW. -- jeffmc JeffMc Pacific Northwest jeffmc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11172 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
re: Rhapsody If it is a single stream, and n number of devices synchronize on their side through a server, or master or something, then it is one stream. (This is how Sonos multi-zone works). If it is three separate streams, and for some reason the three streams are being sync'd, then it is a 3 stream limit. -- jeffmc JeffMc Pacific Northwest jeffmc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11172 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;266370 Wrote: > I don't claim to know anything about the Sonos architecture but I would > guess they only have one connection to the Rhapsody audio and then > transport the decrypted audio within their closed network to each > player. We can't do that Why not? That would seem to be the ovious way of doing it, particularly if synching and whole house audio are a priority. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
There is no hate for Sonos here, it's a great product. We're just aiming to produce a better product with the Duet. I think we're well on our way. Mike -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Systems slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
eritor;266394 Wrote: > This might not be popular here , but I recommend the Sonos system. I don't find people here will object to differing opinions. (Well, maybe in the Audiophile forum ;) The sonos is a nice box. I really like the simple integrated amp and controller. I just find that Squeezebox fits my needs more. :-) -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
jaffacake;266378 Wrote: > Ah, so the open nature of the SB makes it complicated when connecting to > 3rd party proprietary networks like Rhapsody? > > Is this why i heard the new Duet controller isn't fully open source? Some of it's DRM, but mostly it is because the core design of the Squeezebox is "slim". The Squeezebox must always have a connection to a server (SqueezeCenter on your PC, or SqueezeNetwork on the internet) in order to function. Each Squeezebox is separate, they don't mesh or talk at all. They are slaves to the server. Sync is done by having the server control the playback timing. With a local server the internet streams are "proxied" so only one internet stream is required and the SqueezeCenter does the multiplication for the number of Squeezeboxes. The Squeezebox Controller (Duet remote) was fully open source last I checked out the code from the subversion server. :-) My personal recommendation is this: I would download the SqueezeCenter beta software and give it a try with SoftSqueeze. This will show you almost exactly how it will function with the the Squeezebox and Duet systems. -- SuperQ SuperQ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
This might not be popular here , but I recommend the Sonos system. I looked at the Duet first, but after reading the forums here extensively (!) I realized that it can be buggy and/or a hassle it you are unlucky. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of an open-source system, but I just want the system to work, if not because it's a big selling point to my wife (who is a little tired of my extensive tech-escapades). I talked to my friend who has the Sonos, and got a bundle. I'm exceptionally pleased, after 20 minutes I had the System connected and up and running on my Fit-PC (check it out at www.fit-pc.com , I love it), tablet, desktop, my wife's Mac and the included controller. I'll rate the Sonos-system a 10, first time ever for a product by me (and I've tried quite a few)! Also, the customer service is exceptional. Slim Devices is really really good as well, I've received great advice really fast here at the forum. But the Sonos experience was in a league of its own: I asked a few questions at the forums and got immediate replies.I sent a question by mail and got a free number to call from Sweden (!). I didn't call (solved it, it was about a firewall), but two weeks later I got a question by mail asking if the question was solved, if not they had added the answer to the FAQ. I had to call support later on, and it took some time to solve it, but I got told that "I'm here till we fix this" by the tech-guy. Turns out it was my router, not the Sonos. Tech- guy: "Glad to help". This kind of customer support is unheard of in Sweden. I know that many many people here are very happy with their Squeezeboxes, but Sonos is for me (and my wife as it turns out). I'm not in any way affiliated to Sonos. -- eritor eritor's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15033 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
eritor wrote: > This might not be popular here , but I recommend the Sonos system. I > looked at the Duet first, but after reading the forums here extensively > (!) I realized that it can be buggy and/or a hassle it you are unlucky. > Uhmmm, this is a beta product we're talking about. If you want to compare things use an SB3 with SS 6.5. > by mail and got a free number to call from Sweden (!). I didn't call > (solved it, it was about a firewall), but two weeks later I got a > question by mail asking if the question was solved, if not they had > added the answer to the FAQ. I had to call support later on, and it > took some time to solve it, but I got told that "I'm here till we fix > this" by the tech-guy. Turns out it was my router, not the Sonos. Tech- > Sounds like you had 2 hassles. These forums are full of networking/router problems too. X. ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Re: how easy it is to sync, it's no different than how you sync on the player UI or web UI. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Possibly, but don't get your hopes up about that. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;266379 Wrote: > Yes, having an open server means anything DRM-related must be in the > player firmware. Ah, so it's all because of DRM? So when all these companies finally ditch DRM you'll be able to sync all the rooms without trouble? Incidentally, I didn't get an answer on how easy it was to link rooms; can you oblige? Nobody sent me a press-pack yet else I'd test for myself. -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Yes, having an open server means anything DRM-related must be in the player firmware. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;266375 Wrote: > Right, players don't talk to each other, only the server. In order to > share a single Rhapsody connection, the server would need to talk > directly to Rhapsody, and this is not possible because our server is > open source. Ah, so the open nature of the SB makes it complicated when connecting to 3rd party proprietary networks like Rhapsody? Is this why i heard the new Duet controller isn't fully open source? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Right, players don't talk to each other, only the server. In order to share a single Rhapsody connection, the server would need to talk directly to Rhapsody, and this is not possible because our server is open source. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
andyg;266370 Wrote: > I don't claim to know anything about the Sonos architecture but I would > guess they only have one connection to the Rhapsody audio and then > transport the decrypted audio within their closed network to each > player. We can't do that, so each player needs a separate connection > to the Rhapsody server. Why "can't" and not "don't"? Surely it's possible, you've just said that Sonos do it? So why can't you do the same? I thought the beauty of the Slim products was the open 802.11 standard that allows the devices to talk together easily? Are you saying they don't actually talk to one another, just share a remote control? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
I don't claim to know anything about the Sonos architecture but I would guess they only have one connection to the Rhapsody audio and then transport the decrypted audio within their closed network to each player. We can't do that, so each player needs a separate connection to the Rhapsody server. The reason internet radio can't be synced well when on SN is because each player must make its own connection to the radio server, which means each player will most likely start at a different point in the audio. There is no way to sync the audio if they don't start from a known good point. This is why sync does work fine for track-based content such as Pandora - all the players will start playback at the same time with the same exact file. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
> I just checked with the SqueeeNetwork guru, Andy G, and he said you can > sync up to three Squeezeboxes at a time to Rhapsody. So not four, but > nearly there. > BTW this is a policy imposed by Rhapsody, not an architectural > limitation This is very interesting because, as I understand it, Sonos can sync Rhapsody in all of up to 32 zones concurrently...with one Rhapsody subscription. Do SBs have a different licensing agreement? Or is it just the way you sync? Assuming you're using a different Rhapsody stream for each Duet zone, does that mean it would use 3 times the bandwidth on my internet pipe to play the same song in 3 rooms? andyg;266320 Wrote: > The 3-player limitation is Rhapsody's, it doesn't apply to any other > audio source. Syncing internet radio is hit or miss on SN because each > player receives a different audio stream and it's not possible to sync > those. If you want good sync your best bet is to run SqueezeCenter. So you can't sync internet radio effectively like Sonos does? Are you actually reading these streams multiple times when you could just share the one feed? Incidentally, how easy is it to link the rooms on the new Duet controller? Is it like just one button? -- jaffacake jaffacake's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3206 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
zigzag;266344 Wrote: > Sorry to be dumb but I really need to understand this before I go > through the effort to sell the family on it and then buy it, and get it > working. > > Is it correct that if I want to synchronize Pandora or Rhapsody to play > the same song in more than 3 rooms for Rhapsody or more than one room > for Pandora or Internet Radio that I must run a server in my house? > > thanks > > zz Here's how it breaks down for sync: Code: SC7 SN (new datacenters) MP3 radio Yes No WMA radio No No Pandora Yes Yes Slacker Yes Yes MP3tunes Yes Yes Rhapsody Yes (up to 3) Yes (up to 3) LMA Yes Yes -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
radish;266329 Wrote: > Just curious - if I have a single Rhapsody subscription can I listen to > different tracks on different players at the same time? Yes, up to 3 different players at the same time. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Sorry to be dumb but I really need to understand this before I go through the effort to sell the family on it and then buy it, and get it working. Is it correct that if I want to synchronize Pandora or Rhapsody to play the same song in more than 3 rooms for Rhapsody or more than one room for Pandora or Internet Radio that I must run a server in my house? thanks zz -- zigzag zigzag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Sorry, I misunderstood and thought you already had one SB. re 'fiddling' I think it's quite possible that you could get the duet, take it out of the box and have it working in a few minutes. You'll find some testimonials elsewhere here to that effect. It's not that there is some necessary difficult process to go through. And in fact if all you want to do is run Rhapsody you aren't likely to have to do much or any 'fiddling.' It's also possible that it doesn't just 'work' (maybe you're network is not set up right? etc.). You'll also find threads here to that effect as well though if you follow them through many of them have to do either with other issues outside the SB world (network, router, etc.) a number of them have to do with Slimserver (now SqueezeCenter) and setting up a PC-based musicc server. In any case, I am most definitely NOT a programmer and the total amount of 'fiddling' for me over the past several years has been quite minimal (I went through all sorts of hijinks unrelated to SB when ripping my extension CD collection. But that's another story altogether...). Money was not an issue for me. I did look carefuly at Sonos (having been an early adopter with the late Audiotron) and just thought the SB approach was better. As long as your willing to do a miminal bit of problem-solving and willing to avail yourself of the tremendous resources through this forum you should end up a happy camper. (btw, if you do go down this path you'll find a wealth of information elsewhere in this forum on powered speakers and other multi-room ideas with the SB) -- cshaida cshaida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1981 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Just curious - if I have a single Rhapsody subscription can I listen to different tracks on different players at the same time? -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
With the Duet and new Controller, I don't think there is any reason to go w/Sonos. $400 for first room v. $1k; $150 for subsequent rooms v.$400. Comparable sound (I think SB is better, but it is debatable) and vastly more functionality for SB. I don't even really think the Sonos is that much easier to use. With both, you need to set up a music server and that was the difficult part for me. The SB itself takes 3 minutes to get working once the server/network is up an running. Yes, I am a hack for SD players, but only after having done a lot of research into both options. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
The 3-player limitation is Rhapsody's, it doesn't apply to any other audio source. Syncing internet radio is hit or miss on SN because each player receives a different audio stream and it's not possible to sync those. If you want good sync your best bet is to run SqueezeCenter. -- andyg andyg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3292 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
Just to clarify, I don't have any SBs (yet). As I understand the system, the Squeezenetwork is the internet based server so I don't have to run a server in my house. That is what I want as we have enough trouble keeping our PCs working. As I understand mvalera's response, if I'm using the squeezenetwork server, up to 3 rooms can play the same Rhapsody song at the same time. Two follow-on Q's Does the 3 room limit apply to Pandora and Internet Radio? Regarding the issue raised by cshaida: How much "fiddling" are we talking about to set up 4 rooms, control and play Rhapsody music and Internet Radio in the rooms without needing a PC server? thanks for being so responsive. zz -- zigzag zigzag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
mvalera;266287 Wrote: > > I just checked with the SqueeeNetwork guru, Andy G, and he said you can > sync up to three Squeezeboxes at a time to Rhapsody. So not four, but > nearly there. BTW this is a policy imposed by Rhapsody, not an architectural limitation. -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
zigzag;266275 Wrote: > > > Can my kids play their music in the playroom while my wife and I listen > to something different in the family room? Yes, each receiver can play a different Pandora channel. zigzag;266275 Wrote: > When we have a party can we make a Rhapsody playlist and play it in all > 4 rooms at the same time? I just checked with the SqueeeNetwork guru, Andy G, and he said you can sync up to three Squeezeboxes at a time to Rhapsody. So not four, but nearly there. zigzag;266275 Wrote: > If we are going to sleep and the kids are being too loud, can I turn > down their music from my Duet in the bedroom? Yes, you can control any receiver from anywhere in your home that you get wifi reception. zigzag;266275 Wrote: > Can I lock them out of turning it back up? Take away their SB Controller for the night. :) -- mvalera Michael Valera Online Communities Manager Logitech Streaming Media Systems slimdevices.com mvalera's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11086 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Duet vs Sonos
"When I ask my friends in the know they all say Sonos if you have the money and if not, Squeezebox. Im trying to understand the differences in a 4 room setup. It seems like Duets and powered speakers are quite a bit cheaper than a Sonos 4 room setup with speakers. " I would amend that a bit and say 'if you have the money AND IF you aren't willing to do any fiddling at all' Sonos biggest claim to fame is that it has been built as a consumer appliance (it just works out of the box). I don't think anybody really claims that Sonos has better audio quality and not many people claim it has additional features (other than the remote which the new sb remote becomes competitive). While there are a whole bunch of people (myself included) who think that SBs have better audio and more features -- as long as you are willing to fiddle. Since you appear to be already over the 'fiddling' hump (since you got your SB to work and seem to be happy with it) I don't really see the reason for switching to Sonos? "Can my kids play their music in the playroom while my wife and I listen to something different in the family room?" Yes "When we have a party can we make a Rhapsody playlist and play it in all 4 rooms at the same time?" Not sure but I can test that tonight (I've got 4 squeezeboxen at home) but somebody else will probably answer this before then. "If we are going to sleep and the kids are being too loud, can I turn down their music from my Duet in the bedroom? " Yes "Can I lock them out of turning it back up?" Don't know I have a tax refund coming and I want to spend it before someone gets a better idea. Thanks -- cshaida cshaida's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1981 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=43155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
