Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Andre. I like Lightening a lot! This is almost exactly what I have been wanting for beginners, and I may give it a try this spring. If IDLE behaved this well and was this easy to use things would be much better. The reliance on an unincluded battery is a real drawback for many environments, of course, but it may be worth the trouble. Regards, Vern Andre Roberge wrote: On 3/6/06, Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree, actually. I would say it's just one of IDLE's shortcomings, but I've noticed it as well. This lack of ability to run a script with parameters makes IDLE much less useful for intermediate programmers as well. Add to that IDLE's general quirkiness (esp. on Windows), a few stray bugs, and it is definitely not helping the cause. Sorry if my reply is starting to stray from the original topic. Not too long ago I wrote a little app (named Lightning Compiler) that is meant to provide a nice, albeit limited, environment to play with scripts. It comes with a very simple editor and an interpreter window. It does have the ability (implemented just for fun, never tested seriously) to run scripts with parameters. I released it publicly (and provided a recipe for the online Python Cookbook) as it had a feature (handling of input and raw_input) that took me a while to figure out, and wanted to save others the trouble. I got more feedback on Lightning Compiler in a couple of weeks than I did on rur-ple in about a year an a half!! It might be useful for teachers in a classroom situation. It is available from rur-ple's sourceforge page: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=125834 On the down side, it does require wxPython which is not an included battery! André Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On Mar 8, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Vern Ceder wrote: Andre. I like Lightening a lot! This is almost exactly what I have been wanting for beginners, and I may give it a try this spring. If IDLE behaved this well and was this easy to use things would be much better. The reliance on an unincluded battery is a real drawback for many environments, of course, but it may be worth the trouble. Regards, Vern Andre, I agree with Vern, I just downloaded lightning and took it for a spin. Its really very nice. The simplicity of IDLE is one of the keys to the success of Python in our introductory CS courses. But students do have a bunch of trouble with IDLE on windows. I like the fact that the traceback pane pops up right under the editor pane when you run a script and hit a problem. Regarding the 'batteries'. What if we, as a community of educators using python, did something like the Enthought or MacEnthon people and created our own 'batteries included' distribution of Python. Students and other interested parties would have one stop shopping to get all the Python they needed to use python for learning computer science. What packages would we include? Brad Andre Roberge wrote: On 3/6/06, Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might be useful for teachers in a classroom situation. It is available from rur-ple's sourceforge page: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=125834 On the down side, it does require wxPython which is not an included battery! André Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On 3/8/06, Brad Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 8, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Vern Ceder wrote: Andre. I like Lightening a lot! This is almost exactly what I have been wanting for beginners, and I may give it a try this spring. If IDLE behaved this well and was this easy to use things would be much better. @ Brad and Vern especially: Thank you for the positive feedback. I hesitated before posting about Lightning as it was a bit off-topic, but I'm glad I did. Feel free to make suggestions for improvement. Also did you try to write a program that uses input() or raw_input()? This is, imo, its nicest feature... and why I wrote it in the first place. André ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
I also like the simplicity of lightning, but it would need some enhancements before I could imagine using it in class. For example, it doesn't seem to auto-indent and requires typing the filename on a save. I'm sure it would not be hard to tidy up those things. I'd also like to handle multiple open files. I noticed on my system (Linux, Kubuntu 5.10), lightning plays well with my graphics.py library, but it seg faults if I try to use VPython. I don't think I would switch to an environment that doesn't play well with VPython, and I'm afraid that VPython is pretty closely tied to IDLE. Anybody know why packages like lightning and SPE (both wxPython) don't seem to work with VPython? Eric (QT-based) seems to work fine. On Wednesday 08 March 2006 14:54, Brad Miller wrote: I just downloaded lightning and took it for a spin. Its really very nice. The simplicity of IDLE is one of the keys to the success of Python in our introductory CS courses. But students do have a bunch of trouble with IDLE on windows. I like the fact that the traceback pane pops up right under the editor pane when you run a script and hit a problem. Regarding the 'batteries'. What if we, as a community of educators using python, did something like the Enthought or MacEnthon people and created our own 'batteries included' distribution of Python. Students and other interested parties would have one stop shopping to get all the Python they needed to use python for learning computer science. What packages would we include? This is an interesting question. I think this idea of an educational distribution has been kicked around before. For those of us in the Linux world, installation of the major non-standard tools is pretty simple. I can just apt-get install the vast majority. For students with Windows or OSX, it's not as simple. I wonder of the cheeseshop and ez-install tools will eventually make it all pretty easy regardless of platform. --John Andre Roberge wrote: On 3/6/06, Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might be useful for teachers in a classroom situation. It is available from rur-ple's sourceforge page: https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=125834 On the down side, it does require wxPython which is not an included battery! André Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer ScienceWaverly, IA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (319) 352-8360 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On 3/8/06, John Zelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also like the simplicity of lightning, but it would need some enhancements before I could imagine using it in class. For example, it doesn't seem to auto-indent and requires typing the filename on a save. I'm sure it would not be hard to tidy up those things. I'd also like to handle multiple open files. Indeed, I don't think it would be too hard to fix these. I'll keep them in mind for the next time I look at the code. However, one of my goals is to keep it as simple as possible, mostly used as a quick testing or demo environment; I like to use SPE for serious coding. I noticed on my system (Linux, Kubuntu 5.10), lightning plays well with my graphics.py library, but it seg faults if I try to use VPython. I don't think I would switch to an environment that doesn't play well with VPython, and I'm afraid that VPython is pretty closely tied to IDLE. Anybody know why packages like lightning and SPE (both wxPython) don't seem to work with VPython? Eric (QT-based) seems to work fine. I tried to run a sample program from the VPython web page in the editor window and it ran fine (under Windows XP); however, closing the VPython window killed the whole app. The same sample program seemed to hang the embedded Shell... I agree that this would be a major show-stopper for using it in a classroom with VPython :-( André John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer ScienceWaverly, IA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (319) 352-8360 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On 3/8/06, John Zelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 08 March 2006 14:54, Brad Miller wrote: I just downloaded lightning and took it for a spin.Its really very nice.The simplicity of IDLE is one of the keys to the success of Python in our introductory CS courses.But students do have a bunchof trouble with IDLE on windows.I like the fact that the traceback pane pops up right under the editor pane when you run a script and hit a problem. Regarding the 'batteries'.What if we, as a community of educators using python, did something like the Enthought or MacEnthon people and created our own 'batteries included' distribution of Python. Students and other interested parties would have one stop shopping to get all the Python they needed to use python for learning computer science.What packages would we include?This is an interesting question. I think this idea of an educationaldistribution has been kicked around before. For those of us in the Linux world, installation of the major non-standard tools is pretty simple. I canjust apt-get install the vast majority. For students with Windows or OSX,it's not as simple. I wonder of the cheeseshop and ez-install tools will eventually make it all pretty easy regardless of platform. I know that at PyCon, Raymond Hettinger and others from Python_dev were discussing an educational package for Python. I suspect it will be easy to get buy-in and support from that group if we can get a list together of what we want in the package. Anna ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
- Original Message - From: Dethe Elza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Um, possibly because you come off pretty strongly, and seemed to be upset that it was even being discussed? Yeah I guess I do and I was. OTOH, in reading back through the thread I see that Vern was quite explicit, let's get some basic things fixed and *then* decide how much we want to push for a less minimal turtle in the the standard distribution. I can see that my focus on the 2nd stage disrupted the discussion of the first. I owe an apology and I offer it. All that given, I'd be in favor of seeing a more batteries included distro of Python for the big three platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac) that included VPython, PyGame, and other neat toys. But recent efforts with the Cheese Shop and easy_install are making an uber- distro of Python less necessary, since it's becoming much easier to add the libraries you need/want. I am not yet a fan of easy install, and I know I am not alone in that. And there is nothing at all easy about it at the monent, it requiring an install of the installer. My point about IDLE not running setup.py is and was exactly to this issue. I still wish I could get some substantive reaction, I think it important. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can see that my focus on the 2nd stage disrupted the discussion of the first. I owe an apology and I offer it. Completely accepted for my part. It actually clears up why we couldn't understand each other - we were discussing different questions. As to part 2, I would tend to come down more on the conservative side myself. I am not yet a fan of easy install, and I know I am not alone in that. And there is nothing at all easy about it at the monent, it requiring an install of the installer. My point about IDLE not running setup.py is and was exactly to this issue. I still wish I could get some substantive reaction, I think it important. I agree, actually. I would say it's just one of IDLE's shortcomings, but I've noticed it as well. This lack of ability to run a script with parameters makes IDLE much less useful for intermediate programmers as well. Add to that IDLE's general quirkiness (esp. on Windows), a few stray bugs, and it is definitely not helping the cause. Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
- Original Message - From: Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] I owe an apology and I offer it. Completely accepted for my part. Thank you. For consummating a rare online transaction ;) Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose Mr. Moose is an old hero of mine. I have an homage to him in my study - an old album cover with him and his squirrel friend displayed. Though I can't say I could have recalled his full name, middle initial and all. ahead of me again. ;) Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
I am not yet a fan of easy install, and I know I am not alone in that. I'm still getting used to it as well, and some parts are not finished yet, but it is clearly the best way forward for installing and maintaining python packages. And there is nothing at all easy about it at the monent, it requiring an install of the installer. Yes. Here is the one-line (split for email) setup_tools installer-installer: python -c import urllib; urllib.main() \ http://peak.telecommunity.com/dist/ez_setup.py \ | python - -U setuptools My point about IDLE not running setup.py is and was exactly to this issue. I still wish I could get some substantive reaction, I think it important. I missed the point about IDLE not running setup.py, but I can guess that running setup.py inside another process could confuse it when it tries to do dependency analysis to see which files to include. That was a problem when I included a setup.py-like script in the same file as the rest of my code (for one-file distribution). It caused distutils to do a dependency analysis on itself and include everything for distutils in the executable. --Dethe ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
- Original Message - From: Dethe Elza [EMAIL PROTECTED] python -c import urllib; urllib.main() \ http://peak.telecommunity.com/dist/ez_setup.py \ | python - -U setuptools My point exactly - for the audience that I am focusing on and that with which many on edu-sig are concerned. My point about IDLE not running setup.py is and was exactly to this issue. I still wish I could get some substantive reaction, I think it important. I missed the point about IDLE not running setup.py, but I can guess that running setup.py inside another process could confuse it when it tries to do dependency analysis to see which files to include. It's much more fundamental than that. How does one run any script from IDLE that requires a parameter? The fact that there isn't a straightforward, obvious GUI based way to do so is the issue. A setup.py script requires a parameter - install. We are back to the command line, and new territory for many, before we have had the oppurtunity to influence them in the direction that ideally, it should not be. One might accept that the absence of a run with parameter menu item is a vote for minimalism. I recently voted for minimalism myself, someplace ;). To me, the concern of getting folks access to libraries and applications in a manner not so far outside their normal experience overrides any appreciation of IDLE's minimalism in this respect No other battery included is up to the job, and I suspect that this is a small amendment to the IDLE codebase. And directing them to IDLE to do an install is a natural way of introducing IDLE, and the concept of a programmers' editor, period. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On 3/6/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Dethe Elza [EMAIL PROTECTED] python -c import urllib; urllib.main() \ http://peak.telecommunity.com/dist/ez_setup.py \ | python - -U setuptools My point exactly - for the audience that I am focusing on and that with which many on edu-sig are concerned. My point about IDLE not running setup.py is and was exactly to this issue. I still wish I could get some substantive reaction, I think it important. I missed the point about IDLE not running setup.py, but I can guess that running setup.py inside another process could confuse it when it tries to do dependency analysis to see which files to include. It's much more fundamental than that. How does one run any script from IDLE that requires a parameter? The fact that there isn't a straightforward, obvious GUI based way to do so is the issue. A setup.py script requires a parameter - install. We are back to the command line, and new territory for many, before we have had the oppurtunity to influence them in the direction that ideally, it should not be. One might accept that the absence of a run with parameter menu item is a vote for minimalism. I recently voted for minimalism myself, someplace ;). To me, the concern of getting folks access to libraries and applications in a manner not so far outside their normal experience overrides any appreciation of IDLE's minimalism in this respect No other battery included is up to the job, and I suspect that this is a small amendment to the IDLE codebase. And directing them to IDLE to do an install is a natural way of introducing IDLE, and the concept of a programmers' editor, period. (inspired by some other posts about silent agreements on this list and wanting to break this tradition ;-) Art: You've made some excellent points! +1 André Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
On 3-Mar-06, at 4:57 PM, kirby urner wrote: I never ever said I don't like turtle.py nor did I suggest deleting it from the Standard Library. Not once. My apologies, I certainly didn't intend to put words into either Kirby or Arthur's mouths. I was only trying to address the let's move this off list, ostensibly because both Kirby and Arthur had made some form of disapproving comments (not anti-turtle!). Personally, this kind of discussion is exactly the kind of thing that belongs on edu-sig, and it's a breath of fresh air to have so many different people posting on a topic (not that I am anti-Kirby or anti- Arthur, just pro-diversity). And pro-turtle. I wrote my own turtle graphics before noticing there was one bundled (and taking a different tact with it, more direct manipulation of the turtles). And do not confuse my views with Arthur's. He and I disagree on many issues. I don't know. Has anyone ever seen Arthur and Kirby in the same room together? %-) --Dethe All space and matter, organic or inorganic, has some degree of life in it [...] All matter/space has some degree of self in it. If either of these claims comes, in future, to be considered true, that would radically change our picture of the universe. --Christopher Alexander ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Have said 4 times now that I have no problem with it in the standard distribution. My apologies for misrespresenting you, but that is how you were coming across. I was trying to address the perception more than what you actually said, but I could have made that more clear. I'm sorry about that. And never said I didn't like it - as it is, i.e. with its current scope. Why does my position here keep getting misrepresented? Um, possibly because you come off pretty strongly, and seemed to be upset that it was even being discussed? And no, I am not suggesting we don't fix bugs. But that's kind of how it came across. Of course, others weren't so clear about the scope they were addressing, either. There was room for improved communication all around. You know where the line is - I don't. But we seem to agree there is a line to be watched. I don't necessarily know where the line is, but what folks are proposing (i.e., fix the more egregious things in turtle.py, so that it is usable more or less as-is) seems approporiate to me. That doesn't make it so, just one voice and all that. Long history of not feeling like I am working within a meritocracy. Nobody could find it in their heart to support me on the contention that an IDLE that cannot run a setup.py is something to be addressed. Sorry, I don't remember that discussion, but I don't follow every thread that closely. Perhaps if I found some support when I try to push a point that is straight-forward sensible (nothing seems to happen without *some* pushing), I'd be less reactive in a discussion that had some unavoidable level of controversy. I think someone else mentioned here that often when there is no feedback, it's because others on the list either have no strong opinion on a matter, or aren't familiar enough with the issue to push their opinion, or have nothing relevant to add to the discussion. On other lists sometimes people will post with nothing more than a +1 in the body, kind of like, Yeah, what you said or me too! On this list, as far as I have been able to observe, people mainly wait to post until they have something more substantive to add to the conversation (which often means we see more posts that disagree than posts that agree, since it's easier to substantively disagree). If I take my boyscout hat off, and put on my businessman's hat - it seems to me that a vpython in the standard distribution would be a much more significant thing to think and work toward if we are concerned about Python's popularity and its utility in the classroom. I'd love to see a VPython in the standard distro, but it's not going to happen. The VPython folks have enough trouble getting it to compile and run on both Windows and Linux (the only way to run it on a Mac is to pretend it's Linux, load it up with tons of linux libraries, and run it under X-Windows instead of the native Mac interface). Python runs in lots of places that VPython never will. Tkinter tends to run in most of those places as well, which is probably why it is still bundled with the standard distro. All that given, I'd be in favor of seeing a more batteries included distro of Python for the big three platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac) that included VPython, PyGame, and other neat toys. But recent efforts with the Cheese Shop and easy_install are making an uber- distro of Python less necessary, since it's becoming much easier to add the libraries you need/want. Mostly because it actually highlights some of Python's indigenous strengths - not only providing friendly access to high performance graphics in C++, but doing so in such a way that the C++ graphical objects can be subclassed and extended in pure Python. Seems to me - with my businessman's hat on - that one wants to showcase those kinds of facilities. It's competitive out there. And as useful as a turtles might be in the classroom, there are many turtles out there, and there is nothing indigenous to Python about them. Get Python - its turtles are pretty OK. My businessman doesn't get excited. Yes, turtles aren't going to be big sales items for Python, but this isn't the python marketing list. Teachers dig 'em, kids get 'em, we should at least fix 'em so they work consistently. --Dethe Any idea that couldn't stand a few decades of neglect is not worth anything. --Gabriel Garcia Marquez ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
-Original Message- From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Well I have found the IDLE-Dev list to be a bit of a sink hole. For those who don't follow it, the most recent post to the IDLE-dev list was, to me, interesting. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/2006-February/002442.html Stani is the author of SPE, an Python IDE that is generally on everybody's top XXX list of free Python IDEs. He is also a Blender guy, and, I'm told, an artist. It no longer surprises me that there has been no public response to Stani's post. Since Guido stopped his personal development efforts, IDLE seems to have become the Phone Company's IDE, Anti-Agile to an extreme. One argument against an official turtle.py module, is that it will be the Phone Company's Turtle, and the forces of agility and merit will be lost. To me it is better if folks wanting a serious turtle graphics implementation expect to look for it outside the standard distribution. I am perfectly aware that my approach to these discussion is not likely to get me liked. Kirby, we know, is weird ;). But if I had no passion around the issues that arise, it would be easy enough to approach the discussions otherwise. Probably my approach is Anti-Effective - so the serious discussion is perceived to be the one that is held without any overt passion. Too bad. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Art, You've made your feelings about turtle.py abundantly clear. I would only suggest that (contrary to your implications) we benighted individuals who actually use the module in teaching and want improve it are also passionate, moral and even (perhaps) intelligent. Or at least we deserve the benefit of the doubt. ;) However if our discussion of the module bothers you that much, I'm happy to move it to off of this list. Cheers, Vern Ceder Arthur wrote: -Original Message- From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] One argument against an official turtle.py module, is that it will be the Phone Company's Turtle, and the forces of agility and merit will be lost. To me it is better if folks wanting a serious turtle graphics implementation expect to look for it outside the standard distribution. I am perfectly aware that my approach to these discussion is not likely to get me liked. Kirby, we know, is weird ;). But if I had no passion around the issues that arise, it would be easy enough to approach the discussions otherwise. Probably my approach is Anti-Effective - so the serious discussion is perceived to be the one that is held without any overt passion. Too bad. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Arthur wrote: Starting with: What is the importance of having your improved module part of the standard distribution? Teachers in many school situations don't even have control of what software is on the machines their students use. They need to request an installation from tech support. Or if they do have control, they don't have time to install multiple packages on 20-30 workstations. So having a minimally usable turtle implementation included in the standard library would be helpful to them. It's my understanding that this is why turtle.py is there in the first place. The problem is that its usability is *too* minimal. Why isn't the cheeseshop - http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi - the appropriate place for results of your undertaking, as it is foe the results of every other Python application developer. Or is the substance of your response simply that I am in discussion with the Phone Company, have been put on hold, and am wasting my time in attempting to have a discussion on the merits. I was asked submit the enhacements by Raymond Hettinger. I foolishly thought it might be good to ask for input on the nature of the improvements before doing so. If you want to have an argument about whethe turtle.py should be in the standard library at all, I would suggest you file a PEP or discuss it with the BDFL. It's far beyond me. Are you an appointed or self-appointed redactor of all that is Turtle in the world of Python? Why, yes, I am actually... didn't you get the memo on that? Vern -- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose - Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
What is the importance of having your improved module part of the standard distribution? The current turtle.py module it is already in the standard distribution. Why should not an *improved* version remain in the standard distribution? Quite a few instructors already rely on turtle.py being in the standard distribution. Turtle.py is good for beginners. Having it outside the standard distribution will create difficulties for beginner learners and their instructors. Atanas From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Arthur Sent: Fri 3/3/2006 7:40 AM To: 'Vern Ceder'; 'Arthur' Cc: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16) -Original Message- From: Vern Ceder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] However if our discussion of the module bothers you that much, I'm happy to move it to off of this list. How about responding to some of my substantive points. Or are you saying you don't perceive any? Starting with: What is the importance of having your improved module part of the standard distribution? Why isn't the cheeseshop - http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi - the appropriate place for results of your undertaking, as it is foe the results of every other Python application developer. Or is the substance of your response simply that I am in discussion with the Phone Company, have been put on hold, and am wasting my time in attempting to have a discussion on the merits. Are you an appointed or self-appointed redactor of all that is Turtle in the world of Python? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Arthur schrieb: -Original Message- From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... One argument against an official turtle.py module, is that it will be the Phone Company's Turtle, and the forces of agility and merit will be lost. To me it is better if folks wanting a serious turtle graphics implementation expect to look for it outside the standard distribution. I am perfectly aware that my approach to these discussion is not likely to get me liked. Kirby, we know, is weird ;). ... Hi Arthur and all of you ... we all really know very well that you don't like to liked, except perhaps by Kirby. But that's really not the point when discussing about changes in the turtle.py module. To me this discussion already seems rather strange. There are (I think quite a lot) of people, who use turtle.py, as a part of the standard distribution of Python, for their educational work. Some of them feel, that the module is not adequate for their needs and they propose to enhance it. A procedure, done so many times with so many Python modules. And just in that moment there come two protagonists of the Pythonic educational scene and state: if you want to amend it, then we find, that it would be better to delete it completely from the standard distribution. That's a really weird conclusion. And it lets me ask myself, what interests stand behind this sort of argument? My interests are clear. I've written a book Python für/for Kids which relies heavily on the turtle module as a visualiziation tool. (And I've got a really nice preface from Guido.) So clearly I wouldn't like turtle.py found to be deleted from the Python distribution. What I and most other users of the python module want and, I think, many teachers need, is: you can install Python and use it - as was said out of the box - with children and young student (and also older students) and thus have fun. A bit more fun would be a bit better. This comprises among other things doing some graphics without having to learn the Tkinter machinery. I not only teach students but also teachers. Many of the teachers of what we call Informatik, sort of computer science, have a big stress not only with their daily school life, as they normally are also maths, physics or teachers of some other subject, but also with keeping contact to the progress in so many branches of computer science. They need tools they can learn easily and teach easily to students who (at least the largest par of them) don't want to become computer scientists. Thats a kind of cp4e. (Many of the e's will not learn more than one computer language, at least in Austria ;-( ) And of course it has many more merits, as for instance making Python more popular etc. etc. (By the way: who of us uses the really good turtle module of PythonCard? I assume only few, and I think, that is because it's not in the standard distribution.) But I don't want to argue on this any more, as most of it has already been stated in this discussion. In fact I would like to support the idea of Vernon Ceder to transfer the discussion of the development of turtly.py to some separate place. Perhaps it would be possible to host it at sourceforge or something like that and install some mailing list, e.g. turtle-dev, on it for several month. On python.org there currently approximately 70, many of which are low traffic. There are really many interesting questions to discuss and that is not possible in a fruitful athmosphere on a list where two people who do more than 50% of the overall postings (in terms of number not to speak of volume, as it was in the last six month) dislike it. Moreover it would also be not interesting enough for the majority of the participants of Edu-Sig. So it would suffice to report progress and results from time to time here. So Vernon, could you check which possibilities there are? Regards, Gregor ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- Gregor Lingl Reisnerstrasse 3/19 A-1030 Wien Telefon: +43 1 713 33 98 Mobil: +43 664 140 35 27 Website: python4kids.net ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: - Original Message - From: Vern Ceder [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was asked submit the enhacements by Raymond Hettinger. I foolishly thought it might be good to ask for input on the nature of the improvements before doing so. If you want to have an argument about whethe turtle.py should be in the standard library at all, I would suggest you file a PEP or discuss it with the BDFL. It's far beyond me. Just to be clearer, I have assumed that the turtle.py module in the standaerd library is exactly the turtle.py module that the BDFL had judged was appropriate for the standard library. And I never had a problem with it. It is appropriately minimal. IMO, a less minimal one is less appropriate. This statement seems to me, at least to say, a bit arrogant. Did you ever use turtle.py in an educational setting? If so you surely had a different view! You knew, for instance, that it has a number of serious bugs. Things like this you call approriately minimal. Might it be rewarding for you, to supplement your opinion about turtle.py with some practical experience? Regards, Gregor Do you think I am arguing to argue, or do you at least believe that I mean what I say. And for reasons that may be judged wrong, but are not outlandish in any possible way. Which is why I think a PEP might be nice to see if there is anyone else out there who sees it as I do. Besides the fact that - before the issuance of the new memo I didn't get - that ,at least arguably, would just represent adherence to SOP. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig -- Gregor Lingl Reisnerstrasse 3/19 A-1030 Wien Telefon: +43 1 713 33 98 Mobil: +43 664 140 35 27 Website: python4kids.net ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
I think it would be a real shame if this discussion moved off-list, and a failure of the lists purpose. Turtle graphics have been a mainstay of computers in education for years and have proved their worth in that regard. The turtle.py module is minimal, and isn't going to be taken out of the standard distribution just because Arthur or Kirby don't like it. No-one is proposing that turtle.py be an end-all-be-all super turtle tool, obviously something like that would be more appropriate for the Cheeseshop, and there is plenty of room for such tools. Arthur, I for one have no trouble with your opinions and feelings, but I'm tired of your claims of persecution (I am perfectly aware that my approach to these discussion is not likely to get me liked.) and your attacks on others who are using this list to have a genuine discussion of python in education (Are you an appointed or self-appointed redactor of all that is Turtle in the world of Python?). Surely you can agree to disagree without the attack mode. Note carefully: I am not asking you to shut up, just wondering if you can be more civil about your opposition. Not every educator we'd like to have participate has usenet-thickened skin, and it seems we're already driving them off. Back to the subject of improved turtles, I think there could be a two-pronged approach. The first prong would be to provide incremental improvements to the existing turtle.py (and possibly IDLE) within the standard distribution, while the second would be to provide one or more advanced turtle environments, possibly interfacing with 3D (VPython) or actual robot turtles (PYRO). I'd love to see other alternatives to Tkinter build or advanced as well (I may take this on for PyObjC, and PyCard already has this for wxPython). Obviously, these advance turtle environments would go through the Cheeseshop, not the standard distribution. Both discussions should be welcomed on this list. ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
- Original Message - From: Gregor Lingl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, March 3, 2006 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16) Arthur schrieb: Some of them feel, that the module is not adequate for their needs and they propose to enhance it. A procedure, done so many times with so many Python modules. And just in that moment there come two protagonists of the Pythonic educational scene and state: if you want to amend it, thenwe find, that it would be better to delete it completely from the standard distribution. I don't know where you get the idea I propose that it be deleted. I have stated that I thought that the current module, as it is, was an appropriate proof of concept. It would never occur to me that Guido would not put the module he thought most appropriate in his distribution. He has always struck me as a bit of a perfectionsit. Clearly it is not a matter of what level of implementation he is capable of. So No. I am not proposing any change to the status quo. That would require a PEP ;) Also I haven't heard Kirby say anything one way or another about the issue of what he thinks should or should not be done with turtle.py in the standard distribution. So I don't know how he got dragged into this. Among other things, I am being sensitive to the fact that the turle graphics ideas - whether I am attracked to those ideas or not - have a long history and identification with Logo and its living, breathing community. And exactly nothing in particular to do with Python. Perhaps I am too much of a boyscout, but it certainly would not be *my* style to include a wonderful, beautiful, and complete implementation of it in the standard distribution in such a way that the connection of the ideas it embodies to Python and its developers can and certainly *will* in some number of cases be misunderstood. But that, I guess, is me. I would love to be liked by all, but it is most important to me that I be liked by me. *I* have no question that the questions I am raising are worth raising, while at the same time wishing I needn't be the one to raise them - if there are to get raised at all. Art That's a really weird conclusion. And it lets me ask myself, what interests stand behind this sort of argument? My interests are clear. I've written a book Python für/for Kids whichrelies heavily on the turtle module as a visualiziation tool. (And I've got a really nice preface from Guido.) So clearly I wouldn't like turtle.py found to be deleted from the Python distribution. What I and most other users of the python module want and, I think, many teachers need, is: you can install Python and use it - as was said outof the box - with children and young student (and also older students)and thus have fun. A bit more fun would be a bit better. This comprises among other things doing some graphics without having to learn the Tkinter machinery. I not only teach students but also teachers. Many of the teachers of what we call Informatik, sort of computer science, have a big stress not only with their daily school life, as they normally are also maths,physics or teachers of some other subject, but also with keeping contact to the progress in so many branches of computer science. They need toolsthey can learn easily and teach easily to students who (at least the largest par of them) don't want to become computer scientists. Thats a kind of cp4e. (Many of the e's will not learn more than one computer language, at least in Austria ;-( ) And of course it has many more merits, as for instance making Python more popular etc. etc. (By the way: who of us uses the really good turtle module of PythonCard?I assume only few, and I think, that is because it's not in the standard distribution.) But I don't want to argue on this any more, as most of it has already been stated in this discussion. In fact I would like to support the idea of Vernon Ceder to transfer the discussion of the development of turtly.py to some separate place. Perhaps it would be possible to host it at sourceforge or something like that and install some mailing list, e.g. turtle-dev, on it for several month. On python.org there currently approximately 70, many of which are low traffic. There are really many interesting questions to discuss and that is not possible in a fruitful athmosphere on a list where two people who do more than 50% of the overall postings (in terms of number not to speak of volume, as it was in the last six month) dislike it. Moreover it would also be not interesting enough for the majority of the participants of Edu-Sig. So it would suffice to report progress and results from time to time here. So Vernon, could you check which possibilities there are? Regards, Gregor
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
Dethe Elza wrote: Back to the subject of improved turtles, I think there could be a two-pronged approach. The first prong would be to provide incremental improvements to the existing turtle.py (and possibly IDLE) within the standard distribution... Along this prong, how about a list of turtle.py's deficiencies? I suspect this list will to a lot to assuage Art's fears of over- elaboration. What I have read in the discussion is that a clear small interface is wanted to the internal module. ... the second would be to provide one or more advanced turtle environments, possibly interfacing with 3D (VPython) or actual robot turtles (PYRO) Obviously, these advance turtle environments would go through the Cheeseshop, not the standard distribution. --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
In a message of Fri, 03 Mar 2006 17:58:20 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have stated that I thought that the current module, as it is, was an a ppropriate proof of concept. It would never occur to me that Guido would not put the modul e he thought most appropriate in his distribution. He has always struck me as a bit of a perfectionsit. Clearly it is not a matter of what level of implementation he is capable of. A lot of the standard library could stand improvement. Often this is because they were the best-of-breed often only-of-breed ... at some point in history, when they went in. Times change. So No. I am not proposing any change to the status quo. That would requ ire a PEP ;) I am not sure this requires a PEP. Ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Laura ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] IDLE wish (was Edu-sig Digest, Vol 31, Issue 16)
kirby urner wrote: kirby urner Kirby - question 1. Do you understand why your messages are coming to me as html? Makes it difficult to reply in normal form. No, didn't realize. Using Google's gmail. How about this one? Not sure, because I am now at a machine using Thunderbird, rather than Outlook. It seems fine, but it might be just that Thunderbird handles the issue better than Outlook, though I am sure I have Outlook configured to reply in text and quote/indent the original message appropriately, and it ain't happening. Just a nitpicky comment that Python's core tends to mean core Python and there's no move to inject a Turtle at that level. As close as we get is turtle.py in the Standard Library. Python's other turtles are outside even that. On the subject of the Standard Distribution, I have one and only one wish that I think would make the environment more beginner friendly- a good bang for the buck proposition.. And that it an IDLE that can accept command line arguments. There is a very specific reason why I think this is important. Gregor, or Art, or whoever has developed a module that works hard to be accessible to an average computer user. And have the appropriate setup.py file created. And the beginning of the relationship with the user is a need to explain to them to go to the command line (the what?) and type, getting the path to where their zip file extracted itself exactly right. Not the way I want to begin the relationship. What I want to say is to go to their normal Windows Start/Programs Files routine and under Python2x open up the IDLE environment, use the File/Open dialog as you have a million times before to find and open the setup.py file, and hit w/ Parameters selection under the Run Menu option and type in install. Even that process is a little geekier than many like to get, and some will probably drop off, but that's OK with me- that much effort might be acceptable to expect as the price of admission. *After* using Gergor's, or Art's, or whoever's module for a time - something like going to the command line and typing something to get something done will not seem so out of the ordinary. But we are not there yet, and won't be getting there as often we might with this one little enhancement to IDLE. Excellent point, Art. Bring it up on the IDLE-Dev list. Well I have found the IDLE-Dev list to be a bit of a sink hole. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
