Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Very interesting. I was operating at our local submarine for Museum Ships Day, using my K2 in the field about 200 yards away from the sub from which they were operating SSB on 20 meters. I tried to operate 20m CW but the "whooshing" on the band anywhere in the CW segment was just too much. I thought it was just blow-by of the K2's xtal filters, but I think now I'm learning it was the dirty transmitter they were using - not sure which one. Chip AE5KA On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > My case study may not be any less interesting than others you've > heard. During Field Day, 2011 K3 #24 (mine) was the centerpiece of > our group's CW effort. The group was a number of aligned clubs, and > we operated 12F (emergency operations center, 12 stations). You can > imagine the HF overlap involved, since there were nearly always two > stations on one band but on different modes. Our site was about 350 > meters in diameter with stations around the outside edges and a couple > on VHF/UHF in the middle. > > Dave, W3DMA, is also a K3 owner. He and I were partnered on the CW > station. We operated 19 hours out of the 24 allowed, for about 800 > contacts. This isn't awful, but it should have been better. The main > cause of our CW count being so low was phase noise from other stations > on the same band at our site. Many were running > 100W too. That > WHOOSH Wayne mentioned wiped out a lot of received transmissions on > our end, and we had to constantly ask for AGNs due to a transient high > noise floor. We could see that 15-20 dB rise of the floor on the P3 > quite easily. The screen went mostly white during those times. > > Now - I KNEW better, but I went around to the other stations when they > were operating on same bands as the CW station (Dave at the key, were > at the computer). They weren't hearing us AT ALL and didn't even know > we were on the same band! Except for our roving spotter with a > broadband panadapter who could see my K3 but not hear it. No key > clicks from us, but of course you could hear them all over the band(s) > from remote stations. > > Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that > Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to > intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more > on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having > clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD > groups. As Wayne pointed out, phase noise may limit receiver > sensitivity (if it's not limited first by other factors), but most > hams have never thought about it that way. I suspect, in practice, > that in other transceivers phase noise is not the limiting factor in > sensitivity - mainly because the front end design is shoddy compared > to the K3. Front end noise figure is perhaps a larger factor in many > cases. > > The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the > general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate > will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. > Crowded but quiet between signals that is. > > 73, > Matt Zilmer, W6NIA / NNN0UET / NNN0GAF THREE > NMCM RMS Winmor: NNU9ET-5: Upland, CA. > NAQCC: 6081, 10-10: 10413, KX3 #6/FT > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Might be both. matt On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 08:41:20 -0400, you wrote: >Very interesting. I was operating at our local submarine for Museum Ships >Day, using my K2 in the field about 200 yards away from the sub from which >they were operating SSB on 20 meters. I tried to operate 20m CW but the >"whooshing" on the band anywhere in the CW segment was just too much. I >thought it was just blow-by of the K2's xtal filters, but I think now I'm >learning it was the dirty transmitter they were using - not sure which one. > >Chip >AE5KA > >On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > >> My case study may not be any less interesting than others you've >> heard. During Field Day, 2011 K3 #24 (mine) was the centerpiece of >> our group's CW effort. The group was a number of aligned clubs, and >> we operated 12F (emergency operations center, 12 stations). You can >> imagine the HF overlap involved, since there were nearly always two >> stations on one band but on different modes. Our site was about 350 >> meters in diameter with stations around the outside edges and a couple >> on VHF/UHF in the middle. >> >> Dave, W3DMA, is also a K3 owner. He and I were partnered on the CW >> station. We operated 19 hours out of the 24 allowed, for about 800 >> contacts. This isn't awful, but it should have been better. The main >> cause of our CW count being so low was phase noise from other stations >> on the same band at our site. Many were running > 100W too. That >> WHOOSH Wayne mentioned wiped out a lot of received transmissions on >> our end, and we had to constantly ask for AGNs due to a transient high >> noise floor. We could see that 15-20 dB rise of the floor on the P3 >> quite easily. The screen went mostly white during those times. >> >> Now - I KNEW better, but I went around to the other stations when they >> were operating on same bands as the CW station (Dave at the key, were >> at the computer). They weren't hearing us AT ALL and didn't even know >> we were on the same band! Except for our roving spotter with a >> broadband panadapter who could see my K3 but not hear it. No key >> clicks from us, but of course you could hear them all over the band(s) >> from remote stations. >> >> Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that >> Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to >> intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more >> on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having >> clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD >> groups. As Wayne pointed out, phase noise may limit receiver >> sensitivity (if it's not limited first by other factors), but most >> hams have never thought about it that way. I suspect, in practice, >> that in other transceivers phase noise is not the limiting factor in >> sensitivity - mainly because the front end design is shoddy compared >> to the K3. Front end noise figure is perhaps a larger factor in many >> cases. >> >> The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the >> general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate >> will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. >> Crowded but quiet between signals that is. >> >> 73, >> Matt Zilmer, W6NIA / NNN0UET / NNN0GAF THREE >> NMCM RMS Winmor: NNU9ET-5: Upland, CA. >> NAQCC: 6081, 10-10: 10413, KX3 #6/FT >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >__ >Elecraft mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Hello Matt, Interesting that the other stations whose phase noise pestered you, did not sense the presence of the K3's strong signal as the result of reciprocal mixing in their receivers. Can you recall the model or models of transceiver the others were using? 73, Geoff LX2AO On September 13, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > Now - I KNEW better, but I went around to the other stations when they > were operating on same bands as the CW station (Dave at the key, were > at the computer). They weren't hearing us AT ALL and didn't even know > we were on the same band! Except for our roving spotter with a > broadband panadapter who could see my K3 but not hear it. No key > clicks from us, but of course you could hear them all over the band(s) > from remote stations. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I also had this problem recently: I was using my K3 in the vicinity of several other operators who were using an IC-706MkIIG, an FT-857D, and an IC-7000. All of these other radios produced horrible in-band phase noise. When I asked them about it, they were completely unaware that I was on the band! The other stations were at least 100 meters away and using opposite polarization from me on 20 meters. The noise floor increased from S0 to S3-S4 with the 706 and 857, which were farther away and S0 to S7ish with the 7000 which was much closer. Of course, this was one of the many selling points of the K3 for me. I guess the K2 is also very clean on TX phase noise? 73, --Ethan, K8GU/4. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote: > Hello Matt, > > Interesting that the other stations whose phase noise pestered you, did not > sense the presence of the K3's strong signal as the result of reciprocal > mixing in their receivers. Can you recall the model or models of > transceiver the others were using? > > 73, > Geoff > LX2AO > > > On September 13, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > > > > >> Now - I KNEW better, but I went around to the other stations when they >> were operating on same bands as the CW station (Dave at the key, were >> at the computer). They weren't hearing us AT ALL and didn't even know >> we were on the same band! Except for our roving spotter with a >> broadband panadapter who could see my K3 but not hear it. No key >> clicks from us, but of course you could hear them all over the band(s) >> from remote stations. > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- http://www.k8gu.com/ Repair. Re-use. Re-purpose. Recycle. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
> I was using my K3 in the vicinity > of several other operators who were using an IC-706MkIIG, an FT-857D, > and an IC-7000. All of these other radios produced horrible in-band > phase noise. When I asked them about it, they were completely unaware > that I was on the band! Assuming the same synthesizer is used for the transmitter and receiver, then phase noise should affect the receiver and transmitter equally. Those guys using transceivers with poor phase noise should also have been wiped out on receive, even though the interfering K3 was clean. I suspect the problem is broadband amplitude noise generated in the power amplifier chain. That would affect the transmitted noise but not the receiver performance. Alan N1AL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Interesting point---thanks for clarifying that, Alan. At any rate, these other rigs were dirty and operating with them was a nuisance. 73, --Ethan, K8GU/4. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: >> I was using my K3 in the vicinity >> of several other operators who were using an IC-706MkIIG, an FT-857D, >> and an IC-7000. All of these other radios produced horrible in-band >> phase noise. When I asked them about it, they were completely unaware >> that I was on the band! > > Assuming the same synthesizer is used for the transmitter and receiver, > then phase noise should affect the receiver and transmitter equally. > Those guys using transceivers with poor phase noise should also have > been wiped out on receive, even though the interfering K3 was clean. > > I suspect the problem is broadband amplitude noise generated in the > power amplifier chain. That would affect the transmitted noise but not > the receiver performance. > > Alan N1AL > > -- http://www.k8gu.com/ Repair. Re-use. Re-purpose. Recycle. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Matt Zilmer wrote > > Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that > Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to > intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more > on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having > clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD > groups. > Regarding your last sentence, to my knowledge, Elecraft is the ONLY manufacturer who does not allow adjustment of CW Rise/Fall time (Ten-Tec, Yaesu and possibly others do). Adjusting this time to less than ~5ms can cause clicks which, as you said above, can be useful in contests to keep others away from your run frequency. Kudos to Wayne for not allowing the user to adjust this parameter and therefore keeping our K3s cleaner than other rigs. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Phase-Noise-CW-Key-Clicks-tp7562575p7562615.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Yep, I was finding merit in this choice of action. Allowing the adjustment of rise/fall timings into key click territory should be discouraged. Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 In status quo voluntas non sufficit -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:21 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks Matt Zilmer wrote > > Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that > Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to > intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more > on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having > clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD > groups. > Regarding your last sentence, to my knowledge, Elecraft is the ONLY manufacturer who does not allow adjustment of CW Rise/Fall time (Ten-Tec, Yaesu and possibly others do). Adjusting this time to less than ~5ms can cause clicks which, as you said above, can be useful in contests to keep others away from your run frequency. Kudos to Wayne for not allowing the user to adjust this parameter and therefore keeping our K3s cleaner than other rigs. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Phase-Noise-CW-Key-Clicks-tp7562575p7562615.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 9/12/2012 9:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the > general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate > will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. > Crowded but quiet between signals that is. Yes, BUT -- considering the number of active contesters in the world (study the results of major contests), I'd say that Elecraft has been achieving pretty good penetration. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen serial numbers in the 7,000 range, and we know that they started at #1 and didn't skip any. It's also gotten to the point where experienced DXpeditioners would rather drag their own K3s through airports than accept freebies from Icom or Yaesu. More important, it's REAL easy to see the difference between a clean rig and a dirty one on a P3, and every season I see a greater proportion of clean ones! It's gotten to the point that, at least here on the West Coast, a dirty signal stands out like a sore thumb! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
And thanks from me too. What has been pointed out here and what Lyle said yesterday (see below) and what others have pointed out in their own ways has demystified a subject that, once couched in simple words, is not so hard to understand. Quote from Lyle KK7P: Transmitted broadband noise is often much higher than phase noise from the various oscillators. In general, I'd expect the transmitter broadband noise to be higher, perhaps much higher, than the phase noise contribution from the oscillators. The noise contribution from low level transmit buffers, for example, can be significant. Unquote. Thanks, guys. 73, Gary VE1RGB -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ethan Miller K8GU Sent: September 13, 2012 2:48 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks Interesting point---thanks for clarifying that, Alan. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Although the dominant competitive specs these days are receiver measurements, the cleanliness of the K3 should get more press. It is perhaps a tough moral sell but drop-dead easy in the multi-TX market. And Field Day is the most popular activity in US ham radio. In addition to enhancing K3 sales, more awareness should also stimulate Elecraft's competition, perhaps some day making a big improvement in inter-station interference everywhere. There may even be a viable argument that Elecraft has advanced the state of the art enough that eventual tightening of regulatory spectral purity standards for new rigs will be merited. Some may balk at that, but note that we are no longer allowed to operate spark, much to everyone's satisfaction. Rick -- Rick Tavan N6XI On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > > > Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that > Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to > intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more > on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having > clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD > groups. As Wayne pointed out, phase noise may limit receiver > sensitivity (if it's not limited first by other factors), but most > hams have never thought about it that way. I suspect, in practice, > that in other transceivers phase noise is not the limiting factor in > sensitivity - mainly because the front end design is shoddy compared > to the K3. Front end noise figure is perhaps a larger factor in many > cases. > > The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the > general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate > will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. > Crowded but quiet between signals that is. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
* On 2012 13 Sep 14:25 -0500, Rick Tavan wrote: > Although the dominant competitive specs these days are receiver > measurements, the cleanliness of the K3 should get more press. It is > perhaps a tough moral sell but drop-dead easy in the multi-TX market. > And Field Day is the most popular activity in US ham radio. In > addition to enhancing K3 sales, more awareness should also stimulate > Elecraft's competition, perhaps some day making a big improvement in > inter-station interference everywhere. And still, there are claims leveled at the K3 in other forums about "poor transmit IMD". I'm not sure what this means in the context of transmitted broad band and phase noise. > There may even be a viable argument that Elecraft has advanced the > state of the art enough that eventual tightening of regulatory > spectral purity standards for new rigs will be merited. Some may balk > at that, but note that we are no longer allowed to operate spark, much > to everyone's satisfaction. There is much evidence given by operators that the K3 is a very clean transmitter. How can we argue against the claims of poor transmit IMD and what does that actually mean to our spectrum neighbors on the air? 73, de Nate, N0NB >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Hi, Agreed on both points. Others have pointed out that wideband noise on transmit is often much higher than the phase noise produced by the synthesizer. My neighbor (3 doors = 240' away) is a good example of noise produced by the transmit amplifiers rather than the synthesizer. He uses mostly CW and his IC-756 has strong wideband noise even with key up (I am sure he does nut run full QSK). The key up noise must be produced by his amplifier chain, not the synth. It of course also completely rules out noise from my synthesizer as the cause. AB2TC - Knut Alan Bloom wrote > > > Assuming the same synthesizer is used for the transmitter and receiver, > then phase noise should affect the receiver and transmitter equally. > Those guys using transceivers with poor phase noise should also have > been wiped out on receive, even though the interfering K3 was clean. > > I suspect the problem is broadband amplitude noise generated in the > power amplifier chain. That would affect the transmitted noise but not > the receiver performance. > > Alan N1AL > > > > -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Phase-Noise-CW-Key-Clicks-tp7562575p7562635.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
> What has been pointed out here and what Lyle said yesterday (see > below) and what others have pointed out in their own ways has > demystified a subject that, once couched in simple words, is not so > hard to understand. Put another way, so many of the offending transceivers run the transmit IF "wide open" to insure sufficient drive to the final amplifiers and rely on ALC feedback to reduce the gain as necessary. This assures that the phase noise from multiple synthesizers and low level noise in the amplifiers themselves will *all* appear in the output as much as 20 dB higher than a rig like the K3 where the IF gain is properly controlled. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 9/13/2012 2:53 PM, gary bartlett wrote: > > And thanks from me too. What has been pointed out here and what Lyle said > yesterday (see below) and what others have pointed out in their own ways has > demystified a subject that, once couched in simple words, is not so hard to > understand. > > Quote from Lyle KK7P: Transmitted broadband noise is often much higher than > phase noise from the various oscillators. In general, I'd expect the > transmitter broadband noise to be higher, perhaps much higher, than the > phase noise contribution from the oscillators. The noise contribution from > low level transmit buffers, for example, can be significant. Unquote. > > Thanks, guys. > > 73, > Gary VE1RGB > > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ethan Miller K8GU > Sent: September 13, 2012 2:48 PM > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks > > Interesting point---thanks for clarifying that, Alan. > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Us old f*rts have got to quit thinking analog. K3 CW is not keyed. It's effectively data-graphed and fed directly into a digital-analog converter (DAC). Remember, ZERO SIGNAL OUT in TX state is A STREAM OF DATA VALUES sent to a DAC that is RUNNING, not a stage that is switched off. The "keying circuit" is a subroutine. Paddle dash dot and Key In are read as a binary state on three lines to a CPU that go low when input is grounded. Shows up as a value in a register. There may be a bit more (or less depending on your point of view) to the "lack of choice" than it seems. When I look in the schematic for TX RX switching, all I see is unshaped on/off diode circuits all over the place that are switching from a common line or two, transiting the K3 circuits from TX state to RX state. You cannot follow the key line to an analog circuit that is turning an oscillator on and off, or breaking the feed of a steady oscillator to a following stage. So there is no capacitor to discharge for shaping the CW waveform, no resistor to adjust. This is not at all like my FT1000MP, where very loosely controlled cap values made some MP's clicks far worse than others. The K3 lets the RX to TX state change complete before it feeds the DAC any data that implies signal power output. Turning on the CW baud consists of some subroutine feeding some other subroutine numbers that are sent to the DAC, AFTER the K3 has gone RX state to TX state. Reverse for RX to TX. On the straight key side of 15 kHz TX IF, it's nuthin but arithmetic. The shape of the CW baud rise and fall transitions is a pile of numbers. It is oh so possible to monkey with the numbers to get a clear baud transition that has no artifacts in the adjacent channel once transmitted. And a baud transition, by the way, that is impossible with any analog component switch. Having a "choice" of keying waveshapes means that there has to be alternate piles of numbers or subroutines, and the extra running code to switch them. Why bother. They made it the cleanest CW signal on the band and went to work on something else. 73, Guy. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > Matt Zilmer wrote >> >> Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that >> Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to >> intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more >> on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having >> clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD >> groups. >> > > Regarding your last sentence, to my knowledge, Elecraft is the ONLY > manufacturer who does not allow adjustment of CW Rise/Fall time (Ten-Tec, > Yaesu and possibly others do). Adjusting this time to less than ~5ms can > cause clicks which, as you said above, can be useful in contests to keep > others away from your run frequency. > > Kudos to Wayne for not allowing the user to adjust this parameter and > therefore keeping our K3s cleaner than other rigs. > > 73, Bill W4ZV > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Phase-Noise-CW-Key-Clicks-tp7562575p7562615.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the phase noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know how many other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only one. Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
There will always be "alligators" - big mouth, small ears. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/13/2012 7:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know how > many > other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only > one. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Sadly, Al- I believe quite a few "Big Guns" that enjoy reading their calls in the contest reports feel exactly this way. To them it would be detrimental to clean up their signals. They have no incentive at all to care. 73, Bruce, N1RX > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset > because they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations > had to stay away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > don't know how many other big guns share this philosophy but my > acquaintance can't be the only one. > Al W6LX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
And peanut sized brains like most other dinosaurs... Not quite extinct yet it seems. Rick wa6nhc/kl -Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm There will always be "alligators" - big mouth, small ears. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/13/2012 7:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know how many > other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only one. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I too have heard such comments. My fervent hope is that someday someone will write a piece of SDR software that quantifies such things by callsign during a contest, and then posts the results to a web site afterward. I'm pretty certain that it's technically feasible right now to do so, at least for CW. Isolate a callsign just like CW Skimmer does when decoding text, and then look for surrounding bursts of spectral energy that track the main signal. Dave AB7E On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know how > many > other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only > one. > > Al W6LX > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
One was a K3, not sure of the others. Some no-name Y/K/I types. matt On Thu, 13 Sep 2012 17:00:53 +0200, you wrote: >Hello Matt, > >Interesting that the other stations whose phase noise pestered you, did not >sense the presence of the K3's strong signal as the result of reciprocal >mixing in their receivers. Can you recall the model or models of >transceiver the others were using? > >73, >Geoff >LX2AO > > >On September 13, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > > > > >> Now - I KNEW better, but I went around to the other stations when they >> were operating on same bands as the CW station (Dave at the key, were >> at the computer). They weren't hearing us AT ALL and didn't even know >> we were on the same band! Except for our roving spotter with a >> broadband panadapter who could see my K3 but not hear it. No key >> clicks from us, but of course you could hear them all over the band(s) >> from remote stations. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 9/13/2012 4:20 PM, Rick Bates wrote: > And peanut sized brains like most other dinosaurs... I don't think alligators are related to or descended from dinosaurs, but then I graduated in Math not Zoology. Shameless plug for CQP follows, 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. This is poor sportsmanship at its worst, certainly no better than any other form of cheating. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
It's been going on for years. Back in the 70's it was an open secret that some big-gun contesters would intentionally overdrive their amplifiers whenever they needed to clear out nearby QRM. Alan N1AL On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 20:57 -0700, Jim Brown wrote: > On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > > phase > > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to > > stay > > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > > I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. This is > poor sportsmanship at its worst, certainly no better than any other form > of cheating. > > 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
This is very non-representative of contesters in general. Look how many are buying click-free K3's! On 9/13/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: >> I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the >> phase >> noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because >> they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to >> stay >> away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > > I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. This is > poor sportsmanship at its worst, certainly no better than any other form > of cheating. > > 73, Jim K9YC -- Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Very few in my fairly broad acquaintance. I've been contesting for half a century and have belonged at times to PVRC, Murphys and NCCC. /Rick N6XI On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset > because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to > stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know > how many > other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only > one. > > -- Rick Tavan N6XI Truckee, CA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
*I have often suspected this happens. Some of the dirtiest signals found on the band are contest stations we hear in VK from EU regions. Maybe we should make it 59 for good, 19 for bad...:-) 73 * On 14 September 2012 14:51, Vic K2VCO wrote: > This is very non-representative of contesters in general. Look how many > are buying > click-free K3's! > > On 9/13/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > > On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > >> I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that > the phase > >> noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset > because > >> they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had > to stay > >> away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > > > > I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. This is > > poor sportsmanship at its worst, certainly no better than any other form > > of cheating. > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > -- > Vic, K2VCO > Fresno CA > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- *Gary* *Start the day off slow, then taper off.* K3 #679 KPA500FT #18 KAT500FT 007 P3 #1629 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-13 20:21, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > Matt Zilmer wrote >> >> Phase noise and key clicks are the enemy. I respectfully suggest that >> Wayne emphasize (as well) that designing a transceiver to >> intentionally not produce either of these is a worthy objective more >> on a moral plane than an operating advantage. Tactically, having >> clicks and wideband noise could be put to advantage against other FD >> groups. >> > > Regarding your last sentence, to my knowledge, Elecraft is the ONLY > manufacturer who does not allow adjustment of CW Rise/Fall time (Ten-Tec, > Yaesu and possibly others do). Adjusting this time to less than ~5ms can > cause clicks which, as you said above, can be useful in contests to keep > others away from your run frequency. > > Kudos to Wayne for not allowing the user to adjust this parameter and > therefore keeping our K3s cleaner than other rigs. > > 73, Bill W4ZV > > I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. 73 Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-13 20:46, Jim Brown wrote: > On 9/12/2012 9:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote: >> The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the >> general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate >> will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. >> Crowded but quiet between signals that is. > > Yes, BUT -- considering the number of active contesters in the world > (study the results of major contests), I'd say that Elecraft has been > achieving pretty good penetration. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen serial > numbers in the 7,000 range, and we know that they started at #1 and > didn't skip any. It's also gotten to the point where experienced > DXpeditioners would rather drag their own K3s through airports than > accept freebies from Icom or Yaesu. > > More important, it's REAL easy to see the difference between a clean rig > and a dirty one on a P3, and every season I see a greater proportion of > clean ones! It's gotten to the point that, at least here on the West > Coast, a dirty signal stands out like a sore thumb! > > 73, Jim K9YC > Yes but there are still far too many bad radios around, huge number of FT-1000MP´s and crap ICOM transmitters, they will be around for many years to come. Frankly I can not see any "K3 impact" on the bands, at least not from my horizon in Europe. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 01:00, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the > phase > noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset because > they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to stay > away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I don't know how > many > other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only > one. > > Al W6LX > Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. / Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I just bought a new K3/100F this month and the Ser# is 6730 FYI. Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:47 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks On 9/12/2012 9:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the > general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate > will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. > Crowded but quiet between signals that is. Yes, BUT -- considering the number of active contesters in the world (study the results of major contests), I'd say that Elecraft has been achieving pretty good penetration. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen serial numbers in the 7,000 range, and we know that they started at #1 and didn't skip any. It's also gotten to the point where experienced DXpeditioners would rather drag their own K3s through airports than accept freebies from Icom or Yaesu. More important, it's REAL easy to see the difference between a clean rig and a dirty one on a P3, and every season I see a greater proportion of clean ones! It's gotten to the point that, at least here on the West Coast, a dirty signal stands out like a sore thumb! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Jim If you look at any major DXpeditions and pay close attention over 80% of all the radios are supplied by manufactures as well as most of the equipment. Like Swains and the IC-7600, Elecraft amps and so on. Usually it's Elecraft for one major reason weight vs. performance a excellent comparison weight being important shipping costs, air, ship whatever then carrying them to where they are going to be used. Two radios in the same class FTDX-5000MP top notch receiver and performance proven worldwide at 18"x 8 1/2"x19 1/2" and weighting 50# and only 120v then the K3 about 10 3/4'x4'x10' and weighting about 10# and 12v. This in itself is a huge factor in the selection the sheer size of the two and Elecraft does supply radios to most who request them. I personally appealed Elecraft for the support they give to them I'm sure that along with good antenna donors for just two of many that have helped me to add many "new Ones" to my DXCC count and contributed in my decision to go with Elecraft equipment in my shack. I am not 100% Elecraft "ONLY" like some, but they don't have a few things that others offer or that I like so for now only (6) Elecraft items including 3 radios 2 K3/100's a P3/SVGA and a K2. And all of this came about because of a friend who will remain un-named that cost me all this money when I was happy without anything Elecraft(8-) 73 & Good DX, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:47 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks On 9/12/2012 9:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote: > The main real-world problem is that the K3 is a minority in the > general ham rig population. Maybe someday, the K3 penetration rate > will be high enough that we can hear it in how quiet the bands are. > Crowded but quiet between signals that is. Yes, BUT -- considering the number of active contesters in the world (study the results of major contests), I'd say that Elecraft has been achieving pretty good penetration. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen serial numbers in the 7,000 range, and we know that they started at #1 and didn't skip any. It's also gotten to the point where experienced DXpeditioners would rather drag their own K3s through airports than accept freebies from Icom or Yaesu. More important, it's REAL easy to see the difference between a clean rig and a dirty one on a P3, and every season I see a greater proportion of clean ones! It's gotten to the point that, at least here on the West Coast, a dirty signal stands out like a sore thumb! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
No ears "NO WIN"! 73, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:08 PM To: Al Lorona Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks There will always be "alligators" - big mouth, small ears. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/13/2012 7:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that > the phase noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were > an asset because they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since > other stations had to stay away. He felt no motivation at all to clean > up his signal. I don't know how many other big guns share this philosophy but my acquaintance can't be the only one. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I am not a contester but I work "EVERY" contest as a bottom feeder looking for band and mode countries sometimes not often a new one. This had been only for the last 5 years and I have failed to notice any widespread use of this going of even a few in fact but I only work SSB VHF-160m contests. But using the CW readers I have saw very little of this going on maybe I'm just in the wrong band at the wrong time. 73, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gary Gregory Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 12:38 AM To: Vic K2VCO Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks *I have often suspected this happens. Some of the dirtiest signals found on the band are contest stations we hear in VK from EU regions. Maybe we should make it 59 for good, 19 for bad...:-) 73 * On 14 September 2012 14:51, Vic K2VCO wrote: > This is very non-representative of contesters in general. Look how > many are buying click-free K3's! > > On 9/13/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > > On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > >> I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt > >> that > the phase > >> noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an > >> asset > because > >> they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations > >> had > to stay > >> away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > > > > I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. This > > is poor sportsmanship at its worst, certainly no better than any > > other form of cheating. > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > -- > Vic, K2VCO > Fresno CA > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- *Gary* *Start the day off slow, then taper off.* K3 #679 KPA500FT #18 KAT500FT 007 P3 #1629 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Jim Brown-10 wrote > > On 9/13/2012 4:00 PM, Al Lorona wrote: >> I once spoke to a nationally-known, "Big Gun" contester who felt that the >> phase >> noise and key click sidebands generated by his station were an asset >> because >> they cleared a "guard band" around his signal since other stations had to >> stay >> away. He felt no motivation at all to clean up his signal. I > > I believe that people like this should be publicly identified. > Nothing is to stop anyone from scanning the bands during a cw or ssb contest and publically post info about wide/spurious/clicky/splattering/etc signals. Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody does. Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Phase-Noise-CW-Key-Clicks-tp7562575p7562684.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even > contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m > not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. These guys are much closer to EU than to me in CA, so we don't hear their trash. As long as cheaters like this are allowed to continue without public exposure, they will continue. I don't understand why those EU contesters who play by the rules don't expose them. They must make life absolutely miserable for you. When I hear really dirty signals on the air, I DO spot them with that note, But I enter a wrong frequency so that they won't benefit from the spot. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them??? Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak out becomes a sideline enabler. So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ... Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > > > Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even > contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m > not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. > > / Jim SM2EKM > > > _ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted. Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value > then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. > > 73 Jim SM2EKM > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I guess you don't read the 3830 reports then. I don't scan the bands looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the same, although it would certainly help if everyone did. Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 6:47 AM, Barry N1EU wrote: > Nothing is to stop anyone from scanning the bands during a cw or ssb contest > and publically post info about wide/spurious/clicky/splattering/etc signals. > Frankly, I'm surprised that nobody does. > > Barry N1EU > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I agree 100% Bob K6UJ On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:38 AM, David Gilbert wrote: > > Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in > the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a > short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What > would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be > able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric > that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value >> then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. >> >> 73 Jim SM2EKM >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote: > > Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in > the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a > short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What > would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be > able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric > that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value >> then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. >> >> 73 Jim SM2EKM >> Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is" If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and this can be done. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote: > > I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first > hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them??? > Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating > and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak > out becomes a sideline enabler. > > So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ... > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >>> >> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even >> contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m >> not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. >> >> / Jim SM2EKM >> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you serious? Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
> I don't scan the bands >looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but >I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I >highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the >same, although it would certainly help if everyone did. > >Dave AB7E > But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken. For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB port, onto a memory stick for example. (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own operating.) Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster waterfall for improved time resolution. These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you > > serious? When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
My DEL key is being profusely pounded of late... :-) >So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you >serious? >Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are. >/Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Key clicks are CW modulation sidebands. Key click management is about having CW sidebands that occupy a reasonable amount of the spectrum, not eliminating them entirely. Eliminating clicks (the sidebands) is easily done - just don't key the signal. But then you can't send CW. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is" If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and this can be done. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I only said "almost no clicks" because I don't believe in absolutes. Please identify what level (in db referenced to the main carrier within some defined bandwidth) you believe clicks are generated by the K3 and describe how you measured it. I would be very interested in that information. Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 11:58 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote: >> Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in >> the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a >> short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What >> would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be >> able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric >> that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted. >> >> Dave AB7E >> >> >> >> On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >>> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value >>> then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. >>> >>> 73 Jim SM2EKM >>> > Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3 > that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is" > If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and > this can be done. > /Jim SM2EKM > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Yeah ... pretty much. At the very least, if you aren't willing to publicly identify them you don't have much right publicly complaining about them because yes ... you are helping to make sure they have no reason to stop. Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you > serious? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a screenshot. Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;) 73, Dave AB7E On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >> I don't scan the bands >> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but >> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I >> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the >> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did. >> >> Dave AB7E >> > But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken. > > For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could > *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB > port, onto a memory stick for example. > > (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to > identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own > operating.) > > Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster > waterfall for improved time resolution. > > These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote: > On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you >> >> serious? > > When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we > learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the > problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious. > > 73, Jim K9YC > K9YC why did you but in to this. It was for AB7E. / Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
It's time for this thread to end - what say moderator? Rod/w7zrc > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:42:01 +0200 > From: sm2...@bdtv.se > CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks > > On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote: > > On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > >> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you > >> > >> serious? > > > > When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we > > learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the > > problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious. > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > K9YC why did you but in to this. It was for AB7E. > > / Jim SM2EKM > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Let's end this thread (regarding policing of on air tx signals etc) now in the interest of reducing list noise level. 73, Eric Elecraft List Moderator www.elecraft.com _..._ On Sep 14, 2012, at 1:32 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR > application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence > of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would > help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you > use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation > between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum > analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a screenshot. > > Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;) > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > > > On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >>> I don't scan the bands >>> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but >>> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I >>> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the >>> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did. >>> >>> Dave AB7E >>> >> But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken. >> >> For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could >> *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB >> port, onto a memory stick for example. >> >> (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to >> identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own >> operating.) >> >> Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster >> waterfall for improved time resolution. >> >> These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum. >> >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 22:21, David Gilbert wrote: > > I only said "almost no clicks" because I don't believe in absolutes. > OK then I know where you stand. > > Please identify what level (in db referenced to the main carrier within > some defined bandwidth) you believe clicks are generated by the K3 and > I don´t believe! I can hear the clicks in my K3!!! > > describe how you measured it. I would be very interested in that > information. > No need to measure. They can be heard! > > Dave AB7E > /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Unfortunately in this litigious society, "calling out" someone for outrageous behavior like intentionally generating key-clicks or "wide" modulation can leave one exposed to lawsuits for defamation and/or slander. Without automatically generated, objective and unassailable data, I sure would not want to be naming specific "big gun" stations we all know are engaged in the such practices. It's far easier and safer to condemn the practice general that allow the argument to become a personal battle. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote: >> >> When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we >> learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the >> problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
*AND mouse clicks...:-) 73 * On 15 September 2012 06:46, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft wrote: > Let's end this thread (regarding policing of on air tx signals etc) now in > the interest of reducing list noise level. > > 73, > Eric > Elecraft List Moderator > www.elecraft.com > _..._ > > > > On Sep 14, 2012, at 1:32 PM, David Gilbert > wrote: > > > > > True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR > > application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence > > of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would > > help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you > > use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation > > between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum > > analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a > screenshot. > > > > Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;) > > > > 73, > > Dave AB7E > > > > > > > > > > On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > >>> I don't scan the bands > >>> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but > >>> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I > >>> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the > >>> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did. > >>> > >>> Dave AB7E > >>> > >> But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken. > >> > >> For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could > >> *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB > >> port, onto a memory stick for example. > >> > >> (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to > >> identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own > >> operating.) > >> > >> Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster > >> waterfall for improved time resolution. > >> > >> These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum. > >> > >> > > > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- *Gary* *Start the day off slow, then taper off.* K3 #679 KPA500FT #18 KAT500FT 007 P3 #1629 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
On 2012-09-14 22:15, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Key clicks are CW modulation sidebands. Key click management is about having > CW sidebands that occupy a reasonable amount of the spectrum, not > eliminating them entirely. Eliminating clicks (the sidebands) is easily done > - just don't key the signal. But then you can't send CW. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > Yes I know this Ron. You are quite right. You haven´t got this at all. I´m not talking about modulating anything. I know for a fact that transmitters can be keyed without producing key clicks that can be detected in a receiver using 250Hz bandwith with steep filters and tuning just outside that passband. Still the keyed CW signal is "hard" enough to be perfectly readable even if it´s weak. Clicks from a K3 can be heard approx 500Hz out from the passband null, in other words it is not click free. Now, the rise/fall time on a K3 is approx 5ms and the CW signal is quite hard (almost ringing) when listening to it. This is just fine from a communication standpoint but the price we pay are "mild key clicks". I have a feeling, if we just could increase the rise/fall to 6 or 7ms the K3 would be click free or more or less click free. IMO it´s a shame we can´t do this. / Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
David Gilbert wrote: > >True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR >application that captured and quantified such things, but in the >absence of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display >(waterfall) would help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude >information when you use the waterfall that is necessary to establish >the time correlation between center frequency and spurious crap. With >a normal spectrum analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the >correlation in a screenshot. > >Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;) > It isn't necessary to measure or quantify key-clicks and splatter. For the purposes we are discussing here, the only requirement is to show that a signal is notably worse than others of similar strength nearby. A SVGA waterfall display with a good amplitude-sensitive color palette and faster scrolling can show up these defects very clearly indeed. Those features are standard in most PC-based SDR software, but have not yet been implemented in the P3SVGA firmware. The other requirement, as already noted, is to capture the image quickly and easily from the P3SVGA for future use. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
Well said Jim -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 4:59 AM Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote: > > Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in > the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a > short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What > would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be > able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm > euphoric that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher >> value then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this. >> >> 73 Jim SM2EKM >> Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is" If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and this can be done. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
The thing is Jim, if you are being relevant or not irrelevant, it is not necessarily the same thing. Certain eyes find that you are not in agreement , using a same meaning response and will accuse you of not being able to read properly, because you have used a negative inverse of another's word meaning agreement. Rather than waste DXcluster space and set of alarms unnecessarily, or not necessarily. why not confront the dirty keyclicker click to click & face to face n let em have it rather than waste Cluster bandwidth. Very good point you make Jim. -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 5:02 AM Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote: > > I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first > hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them??? > Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating > and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak > out becomes a sideline enabler. > > So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ... > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >>> >> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are >> even contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB >> and I´m not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. >> >> / Jim SM2EKM >> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you serious? Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are. /Jim SM2EKM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
FOLKS, This thread was closed earlier today. Please take the discussion and arguments off list. 73, Eric Elecraft List Manager, Really! www.elecraft.com _..._ On Sep 14, 2012, at 2:39 PM, "Adrian" wrote: > The thing is Jim, if you are being relevant or not irrelevant, it is not > necessarily the same thing. > > Certain eyes find that you are not in agreement , using a same meaning > response > and will accuse you of not being able to read properly, because you have > used a negative inverse of > another's word meaning agreement. > > Rather than waste DXcluster space and set of alarms unnecessarily, or not > necessarily. > why not confront the dirty keyclicker click to click & face to face n let em > have it rather than > waste Cluster bandwidth. > > Very good point you make Jim. > > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm > Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 5:02 AM > Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks > > On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote: >> >> I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first >> hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them??? >> Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating >> and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak >> out becomes a sideline enabler. >> >> So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ... >> >> Dave AB7E >> >> >> >> On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: >>>> >>> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are >>> even contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB >>> and I´m not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. >>> >>> / Jim SM2EKM >>> > So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you > serious? > Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are. > /Jim SM2EKM > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I'm hoping that the increase in reverse beacons will help spot the illegal power merchants, that will be a good start. David G3UNA On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even > contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m > not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. These guys are much closer to EU than to me in CA, so we don't hear their trash. As long as cheaters like this are allowed to continue without public exposure, they will continue. I don't understand why those EU contesters who play by the rules don't expose them. They must make life absolutely miserable for you. When I hear really dirty signals on the air, I DO spot them with that note, But I enter a wrong frequency so that they won't benefit from the spot. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
I'm hoping that the increase in reverse beacons will help spot the illegal power merchants, that will be a good start. David G3UNA On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even > contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m > not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region. These guys are much closer to EU than to me in CA, so we don't hear their trash. As long as cheaters like this are allowed to continue without public exposure, they will continue. I don't understand why those EU contesters who play by the rules don't expose them. They must make life absolutely miserable for you. When I hear really dirty signals on the air, I DO spot them with that note, But I enter a wrong frequency so that they won't benefit from the spot. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
