Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

I can leave the filter out but am wondering why it is blocking the
audio?

The AFSK TX filter is a narrow audio filter that allows only the
defined mark and space tones to pass.  Check the PITCH setting in
AFSK A and make sure it matches the MARK setting in MMTTY (e.g.,
2125, 1275, 915Hz).

> I am using MMTTY, so perhaps it is a setup issue within that program?

As above a conflict between the K3 and MMTTY.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-02-24 1:40 PM, Ed G wrote:

After switching on the AFSK TX filter in the CONFIG menu, I find that the 
filter essentially blocks all the soundcard audio from being transmitted by the 
K3, so that I have no output with the filter switched on. Line In gain settings 
are correct per recent suggestions by Joe, W4TV, and all other K3 settings are 
proper. When I turn off the AFSK TX filter, the K3 returns to operating 
normally in AFSK Data mode, with full power output.  I can leave the filter out 
but am wondering why it is blocking the audio? I am using MMTTY, so perhaps it 
is a setup issue within that program?
--Ed—




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Don Wilhelm]

Ed,

I am not certain what you are referring to as the "AFSK TX filter".
You must enable the 2.7 or 2.8kHz filter for all DATA modes.

You can enable any filters for receive in any mode, but you cannot use 
narrow filters for transmit.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/24/2019 1:40 PM, Ed G wrote:

After switching on the AFSK TX filter in the CONFIG menu, I find that the 
filter essentially blocks all the soundcard audio from being transmitted by the 
K3, so that I have no output with the filter switched on. Line In gain settings 
are correct per recent suggestions by Joe, W4TV, and all other K3 settings are 
proper. When I turn off the AFSK TX filter, the K3 returns to operating 
normally in AFSK Data mode, with full power output.  I can leave the filter out 
but am wondering why it is blocking the audio? I am using MMTTY, so perhaps it 
is a setup issue within that program?
--Ed—

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Ed Muns]

The K3 AFSK TX filter is a very tight filter around the two RTTY tones,
which blocks all other frequencies in the passband.  Are you intending to
transmit something other than RTTY when the blocking occurs?

Ed W0YK 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ed G
Sent: 24 February, 2019 10:41
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

After switching on the AFSK TX filter in the CONFIG menu, I find that the
filter essentially blocks all the soundcard audio from being transmitted by
the K3, so that I have no output with the filter switched on. Line In gain
settings are correct per recent suggestions by Joe, W4TV, and all other K3
settings are proper. When I turn off the AFSK TX filter, the K3 returns to
operating normally in AFSK Data mode, with full power output.  I can leave
the filter out but am wondering why it is blocking the audio? I am using
MMTTY, so perhaps it is a setup issue within that program?
--Ed-


Sent from Mail for Windows 10




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK

[Robie Elms]

All,

Thanks for your input and as a result I have several new ideas to
investigate.

Robie

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:21 PM, Bill Conkling  wrote:

> Check software.  I have noted my software switches sub-modes when making
> changes.  It has to do with mode selection and mapping softwre modes tot he
> radio mode/sub-mode.
>
> bill nr4c
>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:40 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't solve you issue but the K3 is really good with FSK, ie clean.
> >
> > RF?  have you put ferrites on the cables with a number of turns? Does it
> happen with 5 watts, 50 watts 100 or 1000 watts?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/13/2016 8:47 PM, Robie Elms wrote:
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I have very limited experience with a K3 and I am helping a fellow club
> >> member get up and running on RTTY with his K3.  Here is the setup:
> >>
> >> 1. We are using MMTTY in the AFSK mode
> >>
> >> 2. line in/out on the transceiver connected to the computer sound card
> mic
> >> and speaker input/output
> >>
> >> 3. PTT is via command the radio control port.
> >>
> >>
> >> The problem we are having is intermittent transmission of data.  At
> times
> >> the set up works properly and then later when transmitting the K3 sends
> >> only a steady carrier.  It appears that the computer is outputting audio
> >> tones to the K3 when this situation occurs.  What are the potential
> causes
> >> of this problem.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Robie - AJ4F
> >> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK

[Bill Conkling]

Check software.  I have noted my software switches sub-modes when making 
changes.  It has to do with mode selection and mapping softwre modes tot he 
radio mode/sub-mode.

bill nr4c

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:40 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett  wrote:
> 
> It doesn't solve you issue but the K3 is really good with FSK, ie clean.
> 
> RF?  have you put ferrites on the cables with a number of turns? Does it 
> happen with 5 watts, 50 watts 100 or 1000 watts?
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/13/2016 8:47 PM, Robie Elms wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> I have very limited experience with a K3 and I am helping a fellow club
>> member get up and running on RTTY with his K3.  Here is the setup:
>> 
>> 1. We are using MMTTY in the AFSK mode
>> 
>> 2. line in/out on the transceiver connected to the computer sound card mic
>> and speaker input/output
>> 
>> 3. PTT is via command the radio control port.
>> 
>> 
>> The problem we are having is intermittent transmission of data.  At times
>> the set up works properly and then later when transmitting the K3 sends
>> only a steady carrier.  It appears that the computer is outputting audio
>> tones to the K3 when this situation occurs.  What are the potential causes
>> of this problem.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.
>> 
>> Robie - AJ4F
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK

[Richard Ferch]

If the K3 is sending a steady carrier, by far the most likely explanation
is that it is in FSK D instead of AFSK A.

The data sub-mode is remembered per-band, so perhaps it is not set
correctly on all bands.

Another cause can be a logging program - for example, if you are using
MMTTY from within N1MM+, you have to make sure that the Mode control
setting for the mode sent to the radio is AFSK, not RTTY. RTTY in the mode
control selector in N1MM+ means FSK, and it will cause the radio to be put
into FSK D every time a QSY is commanded from N1MM+. A similar phenomenon
can occur with other logging or digital mode programs.

73,
Rich VE3KI

AJ4F wrote:

The problem we are having is intermittent transmission of data.  At times
the set up works properly and then later when transmitting the K3 sends
only a steady carrier.  It appears that the computer is outputting audio
tones to the K3 when this situation occurs.  What are the potential causes
of this problem.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK

[W0MU Mike Fatchett]

It doesn't solve you issue but the K3 is really good with FSK, ie clean.

RF?  have you put ferrites on the cables with a number of turns? Does it 
happen with 5 watts, 50 watts 100 or 1000 watts?




On 11/13/2016 8:47 PM, Robie Elms wrote:

All,

I have very limited experience with a K3 and I am helping a fellow club
member get up and running on RTTY with his K3.  Here is the setup:

1. We are using MMTTY in the AFSK mode

2. line in/out on the transceiver connected to the computer sound card mic
and speaker input/output

3. PTT is via command the radio control port.


The problem we are having is intermittent transmission of data.  At times
the set up works properly and then later when transmitting the K3 sends
only a steady carrier.  It appears that the computer is outputting audio
tones to the K3 when this situation occurs.  What are the potential causes
of this problem.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Robie - AJ4F
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,2/18/2016 6:30 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

If I recall correctly, the main signal was around S9 and the image at S7 or so.


I agree with W4TV that there is some sort of a setup problem. Things to 
check: the assignment of the roofing filters, the settings for the 
roofing filters, the position of the DSP IF (Shift/Width, Lo/Hi). If you 
don't figure it out, call Elecraft Support. They'll help you work 
through it.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anomaly? No replies, try again

[Bill Breeden]

Mike,

Glad to help and glad it made sense!

When you tune across an RTTY signal using your 400 Hz filter with the 
dual passband filter turned off, first one shift, either Mark or Space 
depending on the direction you are tuning,  will enter the passband of 
the filter and then both shifts.  Assuming you have the Shift control on 
the front of the K3 centered, when the Mark and Space energy is centered 
on either side of the center of the filter (and the decoder), the RTTY 
will decode properly.  Besides seeing the decoded text, the CWT 
indicator in the meter area of the K3 display will show you when you 
have the Mark and Space energy centered for proper decode.   As you 
continue to tune same direction, you will lose the first shift you 
acquired as it passes out of the other side of the filter passband, and 
then finally you will lose the other shift as you continue to tune away.


73,

Bill - NA5DX



On 2/19/2016 10:06 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bill,

Excellent analysis and I suspect you are correct in exposing my 
current, very limited knowledge of RTTY signals. Now that I think 
about the problem, it makes sense that the radio is doing exactly what 
it is supposed to when I hear the inverted tones 170 Hz down from the 
original signal.  Rich, VE3KI, suggested turning off the dual passband 
filter to see if that has any affect, so I'll try that in the near future.

Thanks for the response and ongoing RTTY lessons!

Mike - W0AG

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Bill Breeden <mailto:breede...@cableone.net>> wrote:


Mike,

What I see in your video is that you have the RTTY signal properly
tuned at 14,091.883.  "Properly tuned" means that you have the
Mark energy and the Space properly aligned in the dual passband
filter and the data conveyed by the mark and space energy is being
decoded and displayed.  In a normal "ham radio" RTTY signal the RF
energy for the Mark and Space is 170 Hz apart, with the Mark
frequency 170 Hz higher, in RF terms, than the Space frequency. 
When demodulated by a receiver operating in Lower Sideband (LSB)

mode, this results in two audio tones, with the audio tone
representing the Space energy 170 Hz higher than the audio tone
representing the Mark energy.  In the video, when your radio is
tuned to 14,091.883, the tone representing the Mark energy is
passing through the "Mark" side of the dual passband filter and
the tone representing the Space energy is passing through the
"Space" side of the dual passband filter, and the RTTY data is
decoded properly.  When you tune down to 14,091.720 in the video,
a 163 Hz difference, you have the tone representing the Space
energy passing through the "Mark" side of the dual passband filter
and the tone representing the Space energy is outside of either
portion of the dual passband filter.  There is no anomaly revealed
in your video, that's just the way that RTTY, the receiver, and
the dual passband filter works when you tune away from a properly
tuned RTTY signal.

The reason the data on the Space tone sounds like an inverted
version of the data on the Mark tone is because that is exactly
what it is.  In an RTTY signal, the same data is carried by the
both the Mark and Space energy and the state of one is the
inverted state of the other.

73,

Bill - NA5DX


Message: 23
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:56:06 -0700
From: Mike Murraymailto:w0agm...@gmail.com>>
To: "Wes (N7WS)"mailto:w...@triconet.org>>
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net <mailto:cc%3aelecr...@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again
Message-ID:
mailto:eavupuy_wf-lwz5_qoameh...@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it
appears
that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal
that
will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400
Hz, 8 pole
roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing
the effect
at:

*http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c <http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c>*

Anyone have additional thoughts as to what's causing this or where
I should
look next?

Mike - W0AG




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anomaly? No replies, try again

[Mike Murray]

Bill,

Excellent analysis and I suspect you are correct in exposing my current,
very limited knowledge of RTTY signals.  Now that I think about the
problem, it makes sense that the radio is doing exactly what it is supposed
to when I hear the inverted tones 170 Hz down from the original signal.
Rich, VE3KI, suggested turning off the dual passband filter to see if that
has any affect, so I'll try that in the near future.
Thanks for the response and ongoing RTTY lessons!

Mike - W0AG

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Bill Breeden 
wrote:

> Mike,
>
> What I see in your video is that you have the RTTY signal properly tuned
> at 14,091.883.  "Properly tuned" means that you have the Mark energy and
> the Space properly aligned in the dual passband filter and the data
> conveyed by the mark and space energy is being decoded and displayed.  In a
> normal "ham radio" RTTY signal the RF energy for the Mark and Space is 170
> Hz apart, with the Mark frequency 170 Hz higher, in RF terms, than the
> Space frequency.  When demodulated by a receiver operating in Lower
> Sideband (LSB) mode, this results in two audio tones, with the audio tone
> representing the Space energy 170 Hz higher than the audio tone
> representing the Mark energy.  In the video, when your radio is tuned to
> 14,091.883, the tone representing the Mark energy is passing through the
> "Mark" side of the dual passband filter and the tone representing the Space
> energy is passing through the "Space" side of the dual passband filter, and
> the RTTY data is decoded properly.  When you tune down to 14,091.720 in the
> video, a 163 Hz difference, you have the tone representing the Space energy
> passing through the "Mark" side of the dual passband filter and the tone
> representing the Space energy is outside of either portion of the dual
> passband filter.  There is no anomaly revealed in your video, that's just
> the way that RTTY, the receiver, and the dual passband filter works when
> you tune away from a properly tuned RTTY signal.
>
> The reason the data on the Space tone sounds like an inverted version of
> the data on the Mark tone is because that is exactly what it is.  In an
> RTTY signal, the same data is carried by the both the Mark and Space energy
> and the state of one is the inverted state of the other.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill - NA5DX
>
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:56:06 -0700
> From: Mike Murray
> To: "Wes (N7WS)"
> Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
> that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
> What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
> will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
> signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
> roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the effect
> at:
>
> *http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c <http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c>*
>
> Anyone have additional thoughts as to what's causing this or where I should
> look next?
>
> Mike - W0AG
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anomaly? No replies, try again

[Bill Breeden]

Mike,

What I see in your video is that you have the RTTY signal properly tuned 
at 14,091.883.  "Properly tuned" means that you have the Mark energy and 
the Space properly aligned in the dual passband filter and the data 
conveyed by the mark and space energy is being decoded and displayed.  
In a normal "ham radio" RTTY signal the RF energy for the Mark and Space 
is 170 Hz apart, with the Mark frequency 170 Hz higher, in RF terms, 
than the Space frequency.  When demodulated by a receiver operating in 
Lower Sideband (LSB) mode, this results in two audio tones, with the 
audio tone representing the Space energy 170 Hz higher than the audio 
tone representing the Mark energy.  In the video, when your radio is 
tuned to 14,091.883, the tone representing the Mark energy is passing 
through the "Mark" side of the dual passband filter and the tone 
representing the Space energy is passing through the "Space" side of the 
dual passband filter, and the RTTY data is decoded properly.  When you 
tune down to 14,091.720 in the video, a 163 Hz difference, you have the 
tone representing the Space energy passing through the "Mark" side of 
the dual passband filter and the tone representing the Space energy is 
outside of either portion of the dual passband filter.  There is no 
anomaly revealed in your video, that's just the way that RTTY, the 
receiver, and the dual passband filter works when you tune away from a 
properly tuned RTTY signal.


The reason the data on the Space tone sounds like an inverted version of 
the data on the Mark tone is because that is exactly what it is.  In an 
RTTY signal, the same data is carried by the both the Mark and Space 
energy and the state of one is the inverted state of the other.


73,

Bill - NA5DX


Message: 23
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 09:56:06 -0700
From: Mike Murray
To: "Wes (N7WS)"
Cc:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the effect
at:

*http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c <http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c>*

Anyone have additional thoughts as to what's causing this or where I should
look next?

Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Richard Ferch]

Don, as described that was NOT the opposite sideband. On the video the 
stronger signal was at 14091.883 kHz on the dial. That is the frequency 
of the mark tone; the space tone would have been at 14091.713 kHz. The 
pitch in use was 915 Hz mark, so the suppressed carrier frequency would 
be 14092.798 kHz and the center of the filter bandpass (the notch in the 
dual passband filter pattern) would be at 14091.798 kHz (1000 Hz below 
the suppressed carrier).


The second slightly weaker signal in the video was at 14091.720 kHz, 
i.e. the higher of its two tones was virtually coincident with the lower 
of the two tones from the first signal, and the second tone would be 170 
Hz lower, at 14091.650 kHz.


A true opposite sideband signal response would have been at 
14093.713/14093.883 kHz, nowhere near what was observed.


This resembles audio IMD more than an opposite sideband response. For 
example, a heavily overdriven audio signal with two overlapping 
simultaneous tones at 915 Hz and 1085 Hz might develop spurs at 745 Hz 
and/or 1255 Hz, and one of those spurs combined with one of the intended 
tones in the first signal would look a lot like the second signal in the 
video.


My next question would be, do you see something similar if the dual 
passband filter option is turned off, or only when it is turned on? I am 
wondering whether some kind of aliasing phenomenon could exist in the 
dual passband filter that might account for this.


73,
Rich VE3KI


W3FPR wrote:


For strong signals the filtering may let some of the opposite sideband
get through the filters.
What is the relative S-meter reading for the true sideband and the
opposite sideband?


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Mike Murray]

Don,

If I recall correctly, the main signal was around S9 and the image at S7 or
so.

Mike

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Mike,
>
> For strong signals the filtering may let some of the opposite sideband get
> through the filters.
> What is the relative S-meter reading for the true sideband and the
> opposite sideband?
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 2/18/2016 11:56 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
>> that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
>> What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
>> will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
>> signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
>> roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the
>> effect
>> at:
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Don Wilhelm]

Mike,

For strong signals the filtering may let some of the opposite sideband 
get through the filters.
What is the relative S-meter reading for the true sideband and the 
opposite sideband?


73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/18/2016 11:56 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the effect
at:




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Are you *absolutely sure* you are using the 400 Hz IF filter?  By ear,
it sounds as if you have a wider IF filter that is centered on the
carrier and allowing the image to reach the DSP.

Since your display shows FL4, is it possible that you have all your
filters reversed?

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2/18/2016 11:56 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the effect
at:

*http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c *

Anyone have additional thoughts as to what's causing this or where I should
look next?

Mike - W0AG

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Wes (N7WS)  wrote:


Assuming that when the OP says "tuning" he is turning the VFO knob, then
here's my take.  All of the worry about roofing filters (gad how I hate
that term) is for nothing. The crystal filters in conjunction with
so-called hardware AGC are there to protect the delicate 2nd mixer from
overload in the presence of strong signals. (Conventional wisdom says
"protect the DSP" but the mixer is way weaker than the DSP. )

Absent that condition, the demodulation BW is set in DSP and non-hardware
AGC is developed in that same bandwidth.  Depending upon the strength of
the desired signal and AGC threshold and slope, some amount of AGC will be
developed when the desired signal is within the DSP BW.  Hence there is
some amount of gain reduction in play.  When you tune to the opposite
sideband, that AGC gain reduction goes away, raising the amplitude of the
unwanted sideband with respect to the desired signal.  In other words, you
cannot measure opposite sideband rejection unless 1) the gain remains
constant or 2) some amount of known attenuation is included and accounted
for in the calculation.  This is pretty much what Lyle was talking about
earlier.

One more thing.  If we understand that a superhetrodyne receiver is
nothing more than a narrow BPF that can be tuned over the spectrum then
that "roofing filter" that overlays the DSP filter tunes right along with
it.   The belief that somehow when you tune "below zero beat" the crystal
filter stays put while the DSP passband moves is silly.

Wes  N7WS




On 1/7/2016 3:24 PM, Mike Murray wrote:


Joe, et.al.,

I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing
due
to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?

Thanks for everyone's input and patience - seems like the learning curve
is
getting worse with age.

Mike - W0AG

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
wrote:

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in



correct terminology - I mainly only operate CW. I'll try again

And I'll ask my questions again ... what *ROOFING FILTER* and what DSP

bandwidth are you using?

As Eric said in reply to your posting, this sounds like the offset is
incorrect on the roofing filter and allowing you to tune "past" zero
beat.  This is particularly true if you are using the SSB filter and
a wide DSP setting instead of the more typical CW filter (500 Hz)
centered on the mark/space tones (915/1085 Hz in your case).

Note: RTTY is typically lower sideband with MARK being the lower audio
tone and space being the higher audio tone because of the "reversal"
that occurs in the audio to RF translation.  In the K3 AFSK A is LSB
but DATA A is USB ... if you are using them interchangeably that may
also be causing you some confusion.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,


Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY
dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue
tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat)
and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it
is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice
will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Mike Murray]

After doing some more testing in last weekends RTTY contest, it appears
that I made an erroneous statement as to what I was hearing and where.
What I found is that as I tune down in frequency and find a signal that
will decode, if I then tune down another 170 Hz I'll hear the inverted
signal.  Still using dual passband DSP filter at 400 Hz and 400 Hz, 8 pole
roofing filter as before.  I have a brief video on uTube showing the effect
at:

*http://tinyurl.com/hxykq9c *

Anyone have additional thoughts as to what's causing this or where I should
look next?

Mike - W0AG

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Wes (N7WS)  wrote:

> Assuming that when the OP says "tuning" he is turning the VFO knob, then
> here's my take.  All of the worry about roofing filters (gad how I hate
> that term) is for nothing. The crystal filters in conjunction with
> so-called hardware AGC are there to protect the delicate 2nd mixer from
> overload in the presence of strong signals. (Conventional wisdom says
> "protect the DSP" but the mixer is way weaker than the DSP. )
>
> Absent that condition, the demodulation BW is set in DSP and non-hardware
> AGC is developed in that same bandwidth.  Depending upon the strength of
> the desired signal and AGC threshold and slope, some amount of AGC will be
> developed when the desired signal is within the DSP BW.  Hence there is
> some amount of gain reduction in play.  When you tune to the opposite
> sideband, that AGC gain reduction goes away, raising the amplitude of the
> unwanted sideband with respect to the desired signal.  In other words, you
> cannot measure opposite sideband rejection unless 1) the gain remains
> constant or 2) some amount of known attenuation is included and accounted
> for in the calculation.  This is pretty much what Lyle was talking about
> earlier.
>
> One more thing.  If we understand that a superhetrodyne receiver is
> nothing more than a narrow BPF that can be tuned over the spectrum then
> that "roofing filter" that overlays the DSP filter tunes right along with
> it.   The belief that somehow when you tune "below zero beat" the crystal
> filter stays put while the DSP passband moves is silly.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
>
>
> On 1/7/2016 3:24 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> Joe, et.al.,
>>
>> I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
>> actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
>> dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
>> 0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing
>> due
>> to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?
>>
>> Thanks for everyone's input and patience - seems like the learning curve
>> is
>> getting worse with age.
>>
>> Mike - W0AG
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
>> wrote:
>>
>> Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in
>>>
 correct terminology - I mainly only operate CW. I'll try again

 And I'll ask my questions again ... what *ROOFING FILTER* and what DSP
>>> bandwidth are you using?
>>>
>>> As Eric said in reply to your posting, this sounds like the offset is
>>> incorrect on the roofing filter and allowing you to tune "past" zero
>>> beat.  This is particularly true if you are using the SSB filter and
>>> a wide DSP setting instead of the more typical CW filter (500 Hz)
>>> centered on the mark/space tones (915/1085 Hz in your case).
>>>
>>> Note: RTTY is typically lower sideband with MARK being the lower audio
>>> tone and space being the higher audio tone because of the "reversal"
>>> that occurs in the audio to RF translation.  In the K3 AFSK A is LSB
>>> but DATA A is USB ... if you are using them interchangeably that may
>>> also be causing you some confusion.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>>... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
>>>
>>> Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

 Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
 terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

 I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY
 dual-PB
 filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
 14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue
 tuning
 down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat)
 and
 then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
 (slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it
 is
 definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
 should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice
 will
 be appreciated.

 Mike - W0AG

 __

>>>
>>>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Wes (N7WS)]

Assuming that when the OP says "tuning" he is turning the VFO knob, then here's 
my take.  All of the worry about roofing filters (gad how I hate that term) is 
for nothing. The crystal filters in conjunction with so-called hardware AGC are 
there to protect the delicate 2nd mixer from overload in the presence of strong 
signals. (Conventional wisdom says "protect the DSP" but the mixer is way weaker 
than the DSP. )


Absent that condition, the demodulation BW is set in DSP and non-hardware AGC is 
developed in that same bandwidth.  Depending upon the strength of the desired 
signal and AGC threshold and slope, some amount of AGC will be developed when 
the desired signal is within the DSP BW.  Hence there is some amount of gain 
reduction in play.  When you tune to the opposite sideband, that AGC gain 
reduction goes away, raising the amplitude of the unwanted sideband with respect 
to the desired signal.  In other words, you cannot measure opposite sideband 
rejection unless 1) the gain remains constant or 2) some amount of known 
attenuation is included and accounted for in the calculation.  This is pretty 
much what Lyle was talking about earlier.


One more thing.  If we understand that a superhetrodyne receiver is nothing more 
than a narrow BPF that can be tuned over the spectrum then that "roofing filter" 
that overlays the DSP filter tunes right along with it.   The belief that 
somehow when you tune "below zero beat" the crystal filter stays put while the 
DSP passband moves is silly.


Wes  N7WS



On 1/7/2016 3:24 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Joe, et.al.,

I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing due
to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?

Thanks for everyone's input and patience - seems like the learning curve is
getting worse with age.

Mike - W0AG

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in

correct terminology - I mainly only operate CW. I'll try again


And I'll ask my questions again ... what *ROOFING FILTER* and what DSP
bandwidth are you using?

As Eric said in reply to your posting, this sounds like the offset is
incorrect on the roofing filter and allowing you to tune "past" zero
beat.  This is particularly true if you are using the SSB filter and
a wide DSP setting instead of the more typical CW filter (500 Hz)
centered on the mark/space tones (915/1085 Hz in your case).

Note: RTTY is typically lower sideband with MARK being the lower audio
tone and space being the higher audio tone because of the "reversal"
that occurs in the audio to RF translation.  In the K3 AFSK A is LSB
but DATA A is USB ... if you are using them interchangeably that may
also be causing you some confusion.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:


Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY
dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Fred Jensen]

Maybe.  The K3 offers so many ways to configure things, not all 
combinations are guaranteed to be optimal.  You might also try not using 
the dual PB DSP, my experience has been that MMTTY and 2TONE decode a 
bit better without it.  I have the "stock" 2.7 KHz filter, and a 5-pole 
500 Hz.  I normally run RTTY contests with 300 Hz DSP, and 915 Hz MARK 
AFSK-A.  I find that decode accuracy starts to degrade below 300 Hz DSP BW.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 1/7/2016 2:24 PM, Mike Murray wrote:


I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing due
to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?



Mike - W0AG


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Don Wilhelm]

Mike,

That effect should have nothing to do with the 1.8kHz filter.

I would go with Lyle's suggestion that it is the AGC that is allowing 
you to hear the opposite sideband of strong signals.


To give that suspicion a quick check, turn off the preamp and add 
attenuation, then reduce the RF Gain as necessary to protect your ears.
Then turn off the AGC.  Tune to a moderately strong signal such that you 
can decode it well.
Now tune to the opposite sideband.  Do you hear a significant drop in 
the opposite sideband?  If so, your AGC settings may need some work.
If not, there is a problem with the opposite sideband response in your 
K3 - reload the DSP firmware, and if no help there, contact K3support.


One other thought - did you experience this with only one RTTY station?  
If so, that one station may be operating with a Double Sideband signal, 
and what you are hearing is the same as what would be heard by any other 
station listening to that signal.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/7/2016 5:24 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Joe, et.al.,

I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing due
to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Mike Murray]

Joe, et.al.,

I finally got back to the shack to check the setup.  It looks like I was
actually using a 1.8 kHz SSB roofing filter in conjunction with the 500 Hz
dual PB DSP filter.  I also checked the filter offsets which were all at
0.0 (all 8 pole) and I was using AFSK A mode.  Is the effect I'm seeing due
to use of the 1.8 filter or do I have more research to do?

Thanks for everyone's input and patience - seems like the learning curve is
getting worse with age.

Mike - W0AG

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in
>> correct terminology - I mainly only operate CW. I'll try again
>>
>
> And I'll ask my questions again ... what *ROOFING FILTER* and what DSP
> bandwidth are you using?
>
> As Eric said in reply to your posting, this sounds like the offset is
> incorrect on the roofing filter and allowing you to tune "past" zero
> beat.  This is particularly true if you are using the SSB filter and
> a wide DSP setting instead of the more typical CW filter (500 Hz)
> centered on the mark/space tones (915/1085 Hz in your case).
>
> Note: RTTY is typically lower sideband with MARK being the lower audio
> tone and space being the higher audio tone because of the "reversal"
> that occurs in the audio to RF translation.  In the K3 AFSK A is LSB
> but DATA A is USB ... if you are using them interchangeably that may
> also be causing you some confusion.
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,
>>
>> Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
>> terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again
>>
>> I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY
>> dual-PB
>> filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
>> 14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
>> down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
>> then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
>> (slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
>> definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
>> should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
>> be appreciated.
>>
>> Mike - W0AG
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in
correct terminology - I mainly only operate CW. I'll try again


And I'll ask my questions again ... what *ROOFING FILTER* and what DSP
bandwidth are you using?

As Eric said in reply to your posting, this sounds like the offset is
incorrect on the roofing filter and allowing you to tune "past" zero
beat.  This is particularly true if you are using the SSB filter and
a wide DSP setting instead of the more typical CW filter (500 Hz)
centered on the mark/space tones (915/1085 Hz in your case).

Note: RTTY is typically lower sideband with MARK being the lower audio
tone and space being the higher audio tone because of the "reversal"
that occurs in the audio to RF translation.  In the K3 AFSK A is LSB
but DATA A is USB ... if you are using them interchangeably that may
also be causing you some confusion.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Don Wilhelm]

Mike,

If you do find it is AGC that is producing that 'unwanted sideband' 
response, you may want to investigate your AGC slope and threshold settings.
To give you some guidance, look at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on 
"Noisy K3".  I would suggest that you set those AGC parameters in CW or 
SSB mode to suit your preferences.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/6/2016 7:43 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

Mike,

It could be that the band is quiet, this is a strong signal (S7 or 
more) and as you tune through to the opposite sideband the AGC is 
kicking up the gain so you hear the signal down some 70 dB or so, but 
if it is a strong signal on an otherwise fairly quiet band, you may 
hear it.


73,

Lyle KK7P

On 1/6/16 4:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Lyle Johnson]

Mike,

It could be that the band is quiet, this is a strong signal (S7 or more) 
and as you tune through to the opposite sideband the AGC is kicking up 
the gain so you hear the signal down some 70 dB or so, but if it is a 
strong signal on an otherwise fairly quiet band, you may hear it.


73,

Lyle KK7P

On 1/6/16 4:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX 
wrote:


Seems strange to me.  Don't or haven't noticed it with my K3S.   I would
think they perform about the same in this regard.

73
Bob, K4TAX


On 1/6/2016 10:40 AM, Mike Murray wrote:


I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn
the
operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well
except
for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was
surprised
to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
incorrectly?

Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Don Wilhelm]

Mike,

Is the mark tone in MMTTY set to the same frequency as you have set in 
the K3?

IIRC, the default mark tone in MMTTY is 2175.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/6/2016 6:47 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Mike Murray]

Bob, Joe, Bill & Mike,

Since I'm new to RTTY, I probably didn't describe my question in correct
terminology - I mainly only operate CW.  I'll try again

I'm using DATA A/AFSK A, setup for low tones (915/170) and the RTTY dual-PB
filter.  To illustrate what I'm hearing/seeing, imagine tuning down from
14.090 until you hear and can decode an RTTY signal.  Then continue tuning
down 915 Hz (to what I probably erroneously referred to as zero beat) and
then down another 915 Hz, I can now hear the same signal but inverted
(slightly weaker, but definitely there).  It is not decodeable, but it is
definitely there.  I assumed (yeah, I know) that the opposite sideband
should be suppresed, but I think that's what I'm hearing.  Any advice will
be appreciated.

Mike - W0AG

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX 
wrote:

> Seems strange to me.  Don't or haven't noticed it with my K3S.   I would
> think they perform about the same in this regard.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 1/6/2016 10:40 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn
>> the
>> operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well
>> except
>> for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
>> copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
>> easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was
>> surprised
>> to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
>> incorrectly?
>>
>> Mike - W0AG
>> __
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>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

This sounds like a crystal filter offset setting is incorrect. (Also check to 
make sure your IF shift setting on the front panel is not set to an extreme.)


Check the setup menu entry for each crystal filter and its offset setting. 8 
pole filters should be set to a zero offset. 5 pole filters should be set equal 
to the + or -  number marked on the filter or the label stuck inside the radio 
(typically on the top cover.)


Setup of the filters is described in the K3 manual. (I believe the assembly 
manual, but it may be in the operating manual.)


73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 1/6/2016 8:40 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn the
operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well except
for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was surprised
to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
incorrectly?

Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Seems strange to me.  Don't or haven't noticed it with my K3S.   I would 
think they perform about the same in this regard.


73
Bob, K4TAX

On 1/6/2016 10:40 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn the
operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well except
for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was surprised
to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
incorrectly?

Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Nr4c]

I saw your original post. Im not sure I understand your question. 
If you to the point where you are correctly lined up on both frequencies and 
getting good decode as " zero-beat", yes you can hear the tones and possibly 
even decide when listening to only one tone. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Jan 6, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Mike Murray  wrote:
> 
> I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn the
> operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well except
> for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
> copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
> easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was surprised
> to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
> incorrectly?
> 
> Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK anamoly? No replies, try again

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

It sounds to me as if you have selected an inappropriate roofing filter
or have improperly configured the filter offset.

What roofing filter are you using and what [DSP] bandwidth?


73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/6/2016 11:40 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

I played a bit in the RTTY RU this weekend with my new-to-me K3 to learn the
operation and iron out any kinks in my setup. Everything worked well except
for a problem (?) on receive.  I was able to easily tune in signals and
copy using MMTTY, but when I tuned to the other side of zero beat I could
easily hear the same signal.  Obviously, it was inverted, but I was surprised
to even hear it at all.  Is this normal or do I have something setup
incorrectly?

Mike - W0AG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[David Woolley]

Bottom quote below:


In the case of the K3, the FSK mode uses DSP-generated IF frequencies in
the 15 kHz range for the Tx, and simultaneously creates audio tones at


15kHz is audio frequency.


In AFSK mode, the radio requires that you supply audio to a Mic
connector or the Line In connector.  The AFSK Tx filter may optionally


That audio is really an IF of about 1kHz.  The same probably applies to 
the KX3.


The actual difference here isn't between audio and non-audio, it is 
between pure real and complex.  The algorithm that generates the IF 
level FSK signal within the DSP has access to both I and Q channels, so 
the image can be phased out when upconverting.  Although the PC may well 
use almost the same algorithm, it only has access to the I channel, 
which means that the DSP has to do what it does with audio, either 
generate the Q channel, using a Hilbert transform or equivalent, or 
filter out the image.


(Interestingly, whilst there is a big demand for I and Q outputs, there 
doesn't seem to be a corresponding one for I and Q inputs, although that 
is what one wants for efficient processing of data modes.)


--
David Woolley
Owner K2 06123


On 05/12/14 01:28, Lyle Johnson wrote:

In the case of the K3, the FSK mode uses DSP-generated IF frequencies in
the 15 kHz range for the Tx, and simultaneously creates audio tones at
the selected pitch-pair.

In AFSK mode, the radio requires that you supply audio to a Mic
connector or the Line In connector.  The AFSK Tx filter may optionally
be employed, but its use is not required and with later versions of DSP
code is probably of marginal utility.

In the case of the KX3, the tones are generated at baseband.

73,

Lyle KK7P (who emphatically agrees these products are SDRs


On 04/12/14 18:20, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The K3 does not generate AFSK internally. AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.


But that is exactly how SDR architecture transmitters do generate FSK.
The only difference from what is popularly called AFSK is that the
tone starts as digital sine waves.

The ones may be a bit higher pitch than one normally expects from
AFSK, but they are still audio tones.

(As the K3 uses an I/Q structure, you could, theoretically, generate
the two tones as positive and negative tones at the same frequency,
but the problems with handling the DC crossover means that it is
unlikely that anyone would do that.)

In case it is not clear, I consider both the K3 and KX3 to be SDR
designs.






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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Don Wilhelm]

David and all,

I would beg to differ, AFSK starts as external audio tones into an SSB 
transmitter.
How those tones are modulated into an RF signal is not dependent on 
whether the transceiver is DSP or analog, the output should be the 
same.  It may be digitized in the middle of the transceiver, but the 
input and the RF output should be the same.  The input is pure analog 
and not digital sine waves.


FSK is a slightly different 'animal' and in its simplistic form is the 
shift of a VFO frequency to create the mark and space tones. That too 
can be handled internally by various DSP algorithms, but the end result 
should be the same - an RF output that shifts in frequency between the 
mark and space frequencies.


Both are demodulated by the receiving station as tones to be decoded.  
Theoretically, there is no difference on the receiving end by an RTTY 
signal generated by AFSK or FSK means.


73,
Don W3FPR



On 12/4/2014 7:17 PM, David Woolley wrote:

On 04/12/14 18:20, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The K3 does not generate AFSK internally. AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.


But that is exactly how SDR architecture transmitters do generate FSK. 
The only difference from what is popularly called AFSK is that the 
tone starts as digital sine waves.


The ones may be a bit higher pitch than one normally expects from 
AFSK, but they are still audio tones.


(As the K3 uses an I/Q structure, you could, theoretically, generate 
the two tones as positive and negative tones at the same frequency, 
but the problems with handling the DC crossover means that it is 
unlikely that anyone would do that.)


In case it is not clear, I consider both the K3 and KX3 to be SDR 
designs.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Lyle Johnson]

In the case of the K3, the FSK mode uses DSP-generated IF frequencies in 
the 15 kHz range for the Tx, and simultaneously creates audio tones at 
the selected pitch-pair.


In AFSK mode, the radio requires that you supply audio to a Mic 
connector or the Line In connector.  The AFSK Tx filter may optionally 
be employed, but its use is not required and with later versions of DSP 
code is probably of marginal utility.


In the case of the KX3, the tones are generated at baseband.

73,

Lyle KK7P (who emphatically agrees these products are SDRs


On 04/12/14 18:20, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The K3 does not generate AFSK internally. AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.


But that is exactly how SDR architecture transmitters do generate FSK. 
The only difference from what is popularly called AFSK is that the 
tone starts as digital sine waves.


The ones may be a bit higher pitch than one normally expects from 
AFSK, but they are still audio tones.


(As the K3 uses an I/Q structure, you could, theoretically, generate 
the two tones as positive and negative tones at the same frequency, 
but the problems with handling the DC crossover means that it is 
unlikely that anyone would do that.)


In case it is not clear, I consider both the K3 and KX3 to be SDR 
designs.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

While the K3 is an SDR, it generates FSK Mark and Space tones directly
at IF.  There is no digitizing of audio tones from the input and
numerically mixing them to IF and filtering (or numerically cancelling)
the unwanted products.

The fact that the tones are created in response to a DC control input
- not an audio input - is what makes FSK_D FSK not AFSK.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV



On 2014-12-04 7:17 PM, David Woolley wrote:

On 04/12/14 18:20, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The K3 does not generate AFSK internally.  AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.


But that is exactly how SDR architecture transmitters do generate FSK.
The only difference from what is popularly called AFSK is that the tone
starts as digital sine waves.

The ones may be a bit higher pitch than one normally expects from AFSK,
but they are still audio tones.

(As the K3 uses an I/Q structure, you could, theoretically, generate the
two tones as positive and negative tones at the same frequency, but the
problems with handling the DC crossover means that it is unlikely that
anyone would do that.)

In case it is not clear, I consider both the K3 and KX3 to be SDR designs.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[David Woolley]

On 04/12/14 18:20, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


The K3 does not generate AFSK internally.  AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.


But that is exactly how SDR architecture transmitters do generate FSK. 
The only difference from what is popularly called AFSK is that the tone 
starts as digital sine waves.


The ones may be a bit higher pitch than one normally expects from AFSK, 
but they are still audio tones.


(As the K3 uses an I/Q structure, you could, theoretically, generate the 
two tones as positive and negative tones at the same frequency, but the 
problems with handling the DC crossover means that it is unlikely that 
anyone would do that.)


In case it is not clear, I consider both the K3 and KX3 to be SDR designs.

--
David Woolley
Owner K2 06123
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK TX Filter

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> The entry in the manual seems to indicate the filter is only
> active on afsk generated by the K3 internal afsk capability.

The K3 does not generate AFSK internally.  AFSK is only transmitted
in response to external audio.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-12-04 12:41 PM, Dave Barr wrote:


I have heard that the configuration of AFSK TX - FIL ON/FIL OFF affects
afsk transmitted by feeding computer sound card generated afsk audio
tones.  The entry in the manual seems to indicate the filter is only
active on afsk generated by the K3 internal afsk capability.Which is
correct?  (I think I already know.)

Dave, K2YG
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK RTTY

[Lee Buller]

Joe...

This is great.  Thanks for the information.  One frustration down in my 
life.a couple of million to go.

Lee - K0WA


 
In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find 
any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is 
Common Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. 
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.





 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" 
To: Elecraft Reflector ; k6...@foothill.net 
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK RTTY
 


In N1MM -> Config -> Configure Ports, Mode Control, Audi, Other ->
Mode Control ... make sure you have set the RTTY mode to *AFSK*
and not *RTTY* if you are using AFSK.

For more information read the very fine N1MM Logger on-line
documentation.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/5/2014 9:26 PM, Rick Tavan N6XI wrote:
> Here is one thing that will cause a similar problem: If you program a
> memory while DATA MD is X, then every time you recall that memory you will
> be put back into X, regardless of the DATA MD setting prior to the memory
> recall. You might have set the memory years ago when using FSK D and now
> are using AFSK A. Use the memory, go directly to FSK D. This bit me several
> times this weekend. However, I don't see an obvious connection between
> memory recall and N1MM band map clicking.
>
> /Rick
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
>
>> What would a contest be if everything always worked like it did the last
>> time in the contest.
>>
>> I use a minimalist RTTY setup:
>>
>> 2 stereo cables from LINE IN/OUT to LINE OUT/IN
>> AFSK-A with PTT from VOX
>> N1MM with one instance of MMTTY
>>
>> Basically, it worked fine, made over 700 Q's.  At the urging of the club,
>> I decided on the new SO Unlimited [i.e. assisted], and that worked OK too
>> except:
>>
>> Every time I clicked on a band map spot, the radio went to FSK-D, and of
>> course wouldn't key.  I had the couple of usual N1MM lockouts and
>> re-starting N1MM also caused this change to FSK-D.
>>
>> I'm running 4.58 FW, haven't loaded new in a long time, and N1MM is
>> running 13.10.2, also haven't updated that in quite awhile, both have been
>> working very well.
>>
>> I don't think this is a K3 problem, but wanted to check if anyone else
>> using the minimalist configuration has seen this.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
>> - www.cqp.org
>>
>> Go SF!
>>
>> __
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY problem

[Michael Eberle]

Yes, what you describes sounds like what happened to me when I switched 
to 80 meters.  I did have to click the 'reverse' button on Fldigi to 
receive properly.  Then when I tried to work stations, I got a lot of 
'AGN.'  I noticed the bargraph displays on the W2 watt meter kept 
flashing.  I finally checked the DATA MD button and it was on 'AFSK A' 
instead of 'DATA A.'  After changing it back to 'DATA A' and unchecking 
the 'reverse' button in Fldigi, I had no more problems.


Mike
KI0HA


On 1/4/2014 14:52, Tony Kennedy wrote:

Are you in DATA A mode, or if not do you have compression turned up too far?

73 -KD0TSX


On Saturday, January 4, 2014, Ron W3ZV wrote:


I am trying to operate AFSK on 15m in the ARRL RU contest. I have 2
contacts in the last 2 hours. I am by no means a big gun, but I am usually
better than this. Lineup is K3-KPA500-KAT-500. No problems on receive.
Drive is set to produce about 350 watts from the KPA-500. SWR is below 1.5.
As far as I can tell, baud rate, and shift are okay. I don’t think I am
reversed. I know my signal is getting out, because I get a lot of AGN AGN.
What disturbs me is that my ALC indication is rapidly jumping between 2 to
5 bars. This is not the 4 solid and 5 flickering. Power out on the KPA500
jumps between 300 and 400 watts. If anyone has a suggestion to get me back
in the fray, I would be most grateful.

Ron W3ZV




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK RTTY

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

In N1MM -> Config -> Configure Ports, Mode Control, Audi, Other ->
Mode Control ... make sure you have set the RTTY mode to *AFSK*
and not *RTTY* if you are using AFSK.

For more information read the very fine N1MM Logger on-line
documentation.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/5/2014 9:26 PM, Rick Tavan N6XI wrote:

Here is one thing that will cause a similar problem: If you program a
memory while DATA MD is X, then every time you recall that memory you will
be put back into X, regardless of the DATA MD setting prior to the memory
recall. You might have set the memory years ago when using FSK D and now
are using AFSK A. Use the memory, go directly to FSK D. This bit me several
times this weekend. However, I don't see an obvious connection between
memory recall and N1MM band map clicking.

/Rick


On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:


What would a contest be if everything always worked like it did the last
time in the contest.

I use a minimalist RTTY setup:

2 stereo cables from LINE IN/OUT to LINE OUT/IN
AFSK-A with PTT from VOX
N1MM with one instance of MMTTY

Basically, it worked fine, made over 700 Q's.  At the urging of the club,
I decided on the new SO Unlimited [i.e. assisted], and that worked OK too
except:

Every time I clicked on a band map spot, the radio went to FSK-D, and of
course wouldn't key.  I had the couple of usual N1MM lockouts and
re-starting N1MM also caused this change to FSK-D.

I'm running 4.58 FW, haven't loaded new in a long time, and N1MM is
running 13.10.2, also haven't updated that in quite awhile, both have been
working very well.

I don't think this is a K3 problem, but wanted to check if anyone else
using the minimalist configuration has seen this.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

Go SF!

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK RTTY

[Rick Tavan N6XI]

Here is one thing that will cause a similar problem: If you program a
memory while DATA MD is X, then every time you recall that memory you will
be put back into X, regardless of the DATA MD setting prior to the memory
recall. You might have set the memory years ago when using FSK D and now
are using AFSK A. Use the memory, go directly to FSK D. This bit me several
times this weekend. However, I don't see an obvious connection between
memory recall and N1MM band map clicking.

/Rick


On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:

> What would a contest be if everything always worked like it did the last
> time in the contest.
>
> I use a minimalist RTTY setup:
>
> 2 stereo cables from LINE IN/OUT to LINE OUT/IN
> AFSK-A with PTT from VOX
> N1MM with one instance of MMTTY
>
> Basically, it worked fine, made over 700 Q's.  At the urging of the club,
> I decided on the new SO Unlimited [i.e. assisted], and that worked OK too
> except:
>
> Every time I clicked on a band map spot, the radio went to FSK-D, and of
> course wouldn't key.  I had the couple of usual N1MM lockouts and
> re-starting N1MM also caused this change to FSK-D.
>
> I'm running 4.58 FW, haven't loaded new in a long time, and N1MM is
> running 13.10.2, also haven't updated that in quite awhile, both have been
> working very well.
>
> I don't think this is a K3 problem, but wanted to check if anyone else
> using the minimalist configuration has seen this.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
> Go SF!
>
> __
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-- 
Rick Tavan N6XI
Truckee, CA
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY problem

[Kenneth A Christiansen]

Hi Ron and the group

I hope you got your equipment to work on RTTY yesterday but if you didn't I 
have been there and done that several times. I didn't see anyone else respond 
so I will share some of my experiences. 

The first thing on all Windows systems newer than XP, Right click SPEAKERS than 
select playback devices, then communications and make sure to check "DO 
NOTHING" This turns off the AVC functions that are used by SKYPE and other 
similar programs. This may be causing your variations in level to the ALC.

AFSK and FSKD use lower SSB on the Elecraft rigs while PSKD and DATA A use 
upper SSB. Your software must be set to match. My software was designed for 
other rigs and I must use INVERTED for AFSK or FSKD to make it work. Another 
variation I have seen to match some other rigs is TX INVERTED only. 

You should try the TEST position to see if you have the same ALC problem with 
no RF. It is possible to get RF feedback and or hum if there is a cable problem.

I have also seen software do you a favor by switching to USB or "RTTY" after 
you have set up your transceiver. Needless to say this can cause unexplained 
problems until I can figure out what happened.

I used FSKD in the contest yesterday to transmit and MixW to receive along with 
the N3FJP logging program.  I used the following commands for F1 and F2. F1 kyw 
W0CZ W0CZ ;rx;  F2 kyw 599 ND ND ;rx;  .  I also did some other F keys as 
desired. The rx; forces the transmitter to shut down right away after the 
message. I used the  function in the MixW macros but I think other 
software might have a similar method. If I use the K3 or KX3 utility than I use 
the COMMAND TESTER tab as the TERMINAL tab filters out all the commands. The 
MixW, MTTY and other programs often demodulate better than the utility for 
receiviing.

I worked 161 RTTY contacts in the contest yesterday, all hunt and pounce using 
FSKD, in about 7 hours using 10, 15, 20, 40, and 80 meters. The antenna was my 
Hy-Gain Hy-Tower with radials. The station was the KX3 and the KXPA100-AT at 
100 watts. 

Someone remarked yesterday that they had a new KX3 KXPA 100 station and they 
missed the P3 from the K3. I had the same problem and now use the iMic USB 
sound card from the I/Q jack on the KX3 and ROCKY software to give me a 
panadaptor display. It is not as nice as the P3 but it sure does work well for 
finding a contact either in a contest or for rag chewing.

One final comment the KXPA100 has done everything I have tried so far. One 
caution though is PSK31 needs to be run at 50 watts or less because on that 
mode linearity becomes extremely important. If I operated in the RUN mode 
instead of HUNT and POUNCE it would also be important to cut my power back to 
50 watts or less to prevent overheating the amplifier or the KX3.

I hope these comments and suggestions are helpful.

73 and happy hamming in 2014

Ken  W0CZ
w...@i29.net

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 4, 2014, at 2:42 PM, Ron W3ZV  wrote:
> 
> I am trying to operate AFSK on 15m in the ARRL RU contest. I have 2 contacts 
> in the last 2 hours. I am by no means a big gun, but I am usually better than 
> this. Lineup is K3-KPA500-KAT-500. No problems on receive. Drive is set to 
> produce about 350 watts from the KPA-500. SWR is below 1.5. As far as I can 
> tell, baud rate, and shift are okay. I don’t think I am reversed. I know my 
> signal is getting out, because I get a lot of AGN AGN. What disturbs me is 
> that my ALC indication is rapidly jumping between 2 to 5 bars. This is not 
> the 4 solid and 5 flickering. Power out on the KPA500 jumps between 300 and 
> 400 watts. If anyone has a suggestion to get me back in the fray, I would be 
> most grateful.
> 
> Ron W3ZV
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY problem

[Tony Kennedy]

Are you in DATA A mode, or if not do you have compression turned up too far?

73 -KD0TSX


On Saturday, January 4, 2014, Ron W3ZV wrote:

> I am trying to operate AFSK on 15m in the ARRL RU contest. I have 2
> contacts in the last 2 hours. I am by no means a big gun, but I am usually
> better than this. Lineup is K3-KPA500-KAT-500. No problems on receive.
> Drive is set to produce about 350 watts from the KPA-500. SWR is below 1.5.
> As far as I can tell, baud rate, and shift are okay. I don’t think I am
> reversed. I know my signal is getting out, because I get a lot of AGN AGN.
> What disturbs me is that my ALC indication is rapidly jumping between 2 to
> 5 bars. This is not the 4 solid and 5 flickering. Power out on the KPA500
> jumps between 300 and 400 watts. If anyone has a suggestion to get me back
> in the fray, I would be most grateful.
>
> Ron W3ZV
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: AFSK problem

[Mike K2MK]

To Dick and John,

I have experienced the 75 baud problem that John described. I fixed it but
I'm not 100% sure how I did it. This tip might also work for the AFSK-A to
FSK-D problem. Here's my "guess" at what I did. After changing from 75 baud
to 45 baud on one band I would then change bands using the band button on
the K3 and make the baud rate change on the next band. If I made the 45 baud
correction and changed bands from my computer by either hitting a spot or
typing in a new frequency the K3 would not remember 45 baud when I returned
to the previous band. As I said above, this is my guess at what I did. I
don't remember things like I used to.

73,
Mike K2MK


JBaumgarte wrote
> Along the same line, when I go back to RTTY, it comes up at 75 baud, where
> it was last at FSK-D and 45 baud.  I'm using the remote system if that
> makes any difference. 
> 
> John, N0IJ
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 22, 2013, at 11:58 PM, 

> RLVZ@

>  wrote:
> 
>> On my K3, I used to set each band to "AFSK A" once, and when  returning
>> to 
>> that band it would automatically revert back to "AFSK A".   However, 
>> something changed, as now each time I change bands the Mode is in the 
>> "FSK D" mode.
>> 
>> Can someone tell me how I can get my K3 to remember to stay in  the "AFSK 
>> A" mode after switching bands?
>> 
>> Thanks & 73,
>> 
>> Dick- K9OM 





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View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-AFSK-problem-tp7579124p7579143.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: AFSK problem

[John Baumgarten]

Along the same line, when I go back to RTTY, it comes up at 75 baud, where it 
was last at FSK-D and 45 baud.  I'm using the remote system if that makes any 
difference. 

John, N0IJ

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 22, 2013, at 11:58 PM, r...@aol.com wrote:

> On my K3, I used to set each band to "AFSK A" once, and when  returning to 
> that band it would automatically revert back to "AFSK A".   However, 
> something changed, as now each time I change bands the Mode is in the  "FSK 
> D" mode.
> 
> Can someone tell me how I can get my K3 to remember to stay in  the "AFSK 
> A" mode after switching bands?
> 
> Thanks & 73,
> 
> Dick- K9OM 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] AFSK and roofing filters

[Fred Jensen]

On 9/24/2010 4:59 PM, JAMES ROGERS wrote:
> Here is what I think might be going on Fred. You have to set the roofing
>   filters ON for each mode in which they may be used. It sounds like you
> have them setup for SSB but not for the modes you are using for RTTY.
> The easiest way to do that is with the K3 Utility and the Crystal Filter
> Configuration or you can do it via the menus.
>
> For instance: In CW I have my 2.8, 1.0 and, 0.400 configured.
> In USB and LSB I have only my 2.8 configured.
> In DATA I have my 2.8, 1.0 and, 0.400 configured.
> The rest of the modes, only the 2.8 is configured.
>
> I hope this helps. After setting them up, turn the radio off and back on
> for the changes to take place.

Thank you Jim, that was the problem.  I turned FL2 on for DATA and now 
it stays on as long as my DSP BW is less than .5 KHz.  Thanks

JEFF:  If you see this, post a quick note to me.  I'll check in a bit, 
and if I don't see it, I'll answer you direct.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2010 Cal QSO Party 2-3 Oct 2010
- www.cqp.org
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK remains unrepaired?

[wayne burdick]

Lyle (KK7P) and I are working on a field-test firmware release that 
corrects all known issues with AFSK A mode. We'll be sending it to 
several customers this afternoon, and if all goes well it will be 
released at beta by Wednesday.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK A

[Stewart Baker]

Hi Lyle,
Thanks for your reply. A bit more investigation shows that 
switching between AFSK A, DATA A, USB or LSB makes no difference 
as far as the frequency offset is concerned.

What does make a difference is switching between Digital mode and 
CW/SSB in N1MM...
In non Digital Modes the K3 VFO frequency display corresponds 
exactly with the Bandmap for any K3 mode selected.

However, it appears that in the Digital modes N1MM offsets the K3 
carrier frequency whilst showing the correct Mark frequency on the  
Bandmap and MMVARI cursor.

Or, I think that is what is happening... My brain hurts !

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 07:11:25 -0800, Lyle Johnson wrote:
> Hello Stewart!
>
> Be sure you use the PITCH control to select the tone pair you 
desire to
> use. The K3 will then display the RF frequency corresponding to 
the RTTY
> Mark tone.  As you change pitches, the frequency display won't 
alter but
> the offset of the radios suppressed carrier will move in 
accordance with
> the selected PITCH.
>
> If you engage the dual tone RTTY filter, it will be set up for 
the
> selected PITCH.
>
> Be sure the RTTY program is set to the same pitch.  Some 
programmes are
> waterfall-based and change the Tx tones to match the Rx tones. 
 If you
> are using such a program, you may be better off with DATA A, and 
if you
> want LSB then hold ALT to change sidebands for DATA A so that 
you see
> the LSB icon. IN thie case of using DATA A, the radio will 
display the
> suppressed carrier frequency rather than the MARK frequency.
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK A

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> I am not seeing the Mark frequency displayed on the VFO, but one 
> which seems to represent the suppressed carrier. The displayed 
> frequency is offset from the Mark frequency by about 1.3 kHz. 
> This would correspond with the middle of the K3 filter passband.

What do you have set for "pitch" in AFSK A?  If your mark is 2125 
but the AFSK A "Pitch" is 915, you would see an approximately 1300 
Hz offset. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 



> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Stewart Baker
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 10:02 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK A
> 
> 
> I have been busy setting up MMVARI together with N1MM to use in 
> RTTY contests. I have not encountered any real problems, however I 
> am a little confused when it comes to using the K3 in the AFSK A 
> mode.
> 
> I am using this mode because it always has the RTTY LSB selected 
> as default. The audio tones are fed into the K3 via the LINE IN.
> 
> In the Data Mode section of the K3 Owners Manual it says:-
> AFSK A also uses Audio-shift transmit, but is optimized for RTTY.
> 
> The VFO displays the RTTY Mark frequency, and LSB is "normal".
> 
> I am not seeing the Mark frequency displayed on the VFO, but one 
> which seems to represent the suppressed carrier. The displayed 
> frequency is offset from the Mark frequency by about 1.3 kHz. 
> This would correspond with the middle of the K3 filter passband.
> 
> It would be nice to display the real (yes I know it's audio) Mark 
> frequency as this seems to be a standard.
> 
> a) Am I missing something in my K3 setup ?
> or
> b) The manual is wrong ?
> or
> c) Something else ?
> 
> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 - AFSK A

[Lyle Johnson]

Hello Stewart!

Be sure you use the PITCH control to select the tone pair you desire to 
use. The K3 will then display the RF frequency corresponding to the RTTY 
Mark tone.  As you change pitches, the frequency display won't alter but 
the offset of the radios suppressed carrier will move in accordance with 
the selected PITCH.

If you engage the dual tone RTTY filter, it will be set up for the 
selected PITCH.

Be sure the RTTY program is set to the same pitch.  Some programmes are 
waterfall-based and change the Tx tones to match the Rx tones.  If you 
are using such a program, you may be better off with DATA A, and if you 
want LSB then hold ALT to change sidebands for DATA A so that you see 
the LSB icon. IN thie case of using DATA A, the radio will display the 
suppressed carrier frequency rather than the MARK frequency.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK problems fixed yet?

[Lyle Johnson]

> CQ WPX RTTY is getting close... have the AFSK problems been fixed yet or 
> are we close to solutions?

The AFSK Tx tone item is #3 on my task list.

73,

Lyle KK7P (just back from VK6)
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Chad WE9V]

All cables were removed, other than the LINE IN into the radio, including
the line out.  Headphones were worn to listen to the monitor audio.  (Okay,
so I didn't mention the headphones, but they are electrically isolated from
everything else.)

Chad WE9V

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 9:41 PM, K8TB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One other thought. Are you using the line out to drive your soundcard? And
> if so, is your monitor level turned up on the K3? And if so, is anything in
> your computer, digital mode software, allowing the incoming sound card audio
> to be mixed with the outbound audio? Each software package and audio card
> combo is different. There is the possibility that your setup is looping
> audio back to the K3. If this is happening, it would be hard to figure out
> where the feedback frequency is, and that could be tripping the K3 audio
> limiters.
>
>   Pull the line out cable on the K3 while you have the problem, and see if
> it disappears.
>
>   tom bosscher k8tb
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[K8TB]

One other thought. Are you using the line out to drive your soundcard? 
And if so, is your monitor level turned up on the K3? And if so, is 
anything in your computer, digital mode software, allowing the incoming 
sound card audio to be mixed with the outbound audio? Each software 
package and audio card combo is different. There is the possibility that 
your setup is looping audio back to the K3. If this is happening, it 
would be hard to figure out where the feedback frequency is, and that 
could be tripping the K3 audio limiters.


   Pull the line out cable on the K3 while you have the problem, and 
see if it disappears.


   tom bosscher k8tb


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Chad WE9V]

Okay, all good suggestions.  Thanks Jim and Joe.

I didn't stop at just removing the RS-232 cable.  I removed EVERY cable to
the K3 other than the single cable for audio in.  (I kept the grounding
braid and antenna, but still tested using the TX TEST mode, no RF.)

Tried the FP mic connector.  Same behavior.

Shorted out the series resistor on the 20dB attenuator and connected to the
LINE IN on the K3.  Cranked up the soundcard output, turned the LINE IN gain
to around 5.

Same problem.  Monitor audio sounds fine at 2 bars ALC with no hint of
ticking.  Increase either the soundcard output or K3 input gain to get 3
bars ALC and ticking begins.  Goes from no ticking to ticking with only one
"click" of the K3 mic/line in gain.

No setting of soundcard output and K3 input gain results in 3 bars more more
of ALC without the ticking sound.  No hint of ticking at 2 bars ALC.
Soundcard is an ol' favorite, a Creative Labs PCI 128 CT4750...been working
great for years and scores the 7F on Writelog.  Works fine at any output
level with any other radio.  Continues to work FB with FT-1000D.

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Jim Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:54:24 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> >It us likely that
> >the ticking is the computer polling the radio.  You will find
> that
> >is due to ground loop ("pin 1") problems.
>
> Ah! That's a source I hadn't thought of, but it's a perfect
> example of a "pin 1 problem" -- you inject noise at a shield
> contact associated with one circuit and it shows up somewhere
> entirely unexpected! I've never heard it, since my serial cable is
> wired with signal returns to the shells on both ends. :)
>
> Yes, I agree with all of your advice -- use the line input, run
> the sound card about 6 dB below it's max output, adjust the line
> in gain accordingly.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chad -- I still don't understand why you want to use the mic input
> for data. I like to leave my mic plugged into the front panel and
> the sound card plugged into the rear panel. The only change for
> data modes is that I'm feeding Line Out back into the sound card
> so that MMTTY can decode it.
>
> An important difference between the MP and the K3 is that the K3
> has a 20 dB pad in front of the Line In transformer. As Joe
> observes, an additional 20 dB pad outside the radio is too much.
>
> When I'm doing SO2R on SSB, I plug my mic (an EV RE11) into the
> computer and let N1MM keep track of where it should go. It works
> quite well here.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim K9YC
>
>
>
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RE: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Jim Brown]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:54:24 -0500, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>It us likely that 
>the ticking is the computer polling the radio.  You will find 
that 
>is due to ground loop ("pin 1") problems. 

Ah! That's a source I hadn't thought of, but it's a perfect 
example of a "pin 1 problem" -- you inject noise at a shield 
contact associated with one circuit and it shows up somewhere 
entirely unexpected! I've never heard it, since my serial cable is 
wired with signal returns to the shells on both ends. :) 

Yes, I agree with all of your advice -- use the line input, run 
the sound card about 6 dB below it's max output, adjust the line 
in gain accordingly. 

Thanks!

Chad -- I still don't understand why you want to use the mic input 
for data. I like to leave my mic plugged into the front panel and 
the sound card plugged into the rear panel. The only change for 
data modes is that I'm feeding Line Out back into the sound card 
so that MMTTY can decode it. 

An important difference between the MP and the K3 is that the K3 
has a 20 dB pad in front of the Line In transformer. As Joe 
observes, an additional 20 dB pad outside the radio is too much. 

When I'm doing SO2R on SSB, I plug my mic (an EV RE11) into the 
computer and let N1MM keep track of where it should go. It works 
quite well here. 

73,

Jim K9YC



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RE: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Chad, 

Start by unplugging the RS-232 (CAT connector).  It us likely that 
the ticking is the computer polling the radio.  You will find that 
is due to ground loop ("pin 1") problems.  

Read K9YC's stuff again very carefully ... connect a jumper from 
pin 5 of the RS-232 connector to the shell (to bypass a choke 
in the RS-232 return) and consider putting a jumper across L4 
(the rear panel "mic" return) on the KIO3 AF board. 

You would also be better served to remove the 20 dB pad and 
connect your soundcard interface to the Line input.  The K3 
will select inputs independently for data modes.  By increasing 
the audio drive for digital modes (and reducing the gain of the 
K3 input) you make it much less sensitive to the RS-232 "spike." 

Remember, RS-232 is a +/- 10V (or more) signal.  If even a small 
amount of that signal flows through the "ground" lead of your mic 
input (normally < 10 millivolts) you will have a serious "pin 1 
problem."  

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chad WE9V
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:08 PM
> To: Jim Brown; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC
> 
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Thanks.  I've seen and read your document previously.  Is 
> there something specific you are referring me to in your 
> document that I already haven't covered?  Let me recap and 
> add a couple points of clarification:
> 
> * It's not an RF problem, as it still exists in TX TEST mode.
> * I do not have a hum/buzz problem.
> * I've used this setup on microphone inputs of other radios, 
> no problem. (FT-920,990,1000)
> * I am using audio transformers.  "Expensive" solution, but 
> it's worked in the past.
> * I am using a ~20dB pad between the soundcard output and iso 
> transformer. (5600/560ohm)
> * Duplicate 20dB pad/iso xfmr are on both channels, other 
> channel driving FT-1000 no problems.  Swapping L/R channels 
> has problem follow K3, not cable.
> * I have 1.25" braid bonding K3>computer>FT-1000.
> * I can turn the soundcard output down very low (<20%), but I 
> have to turn up the K3 MIC to get any power output.
> * Using my Heil headset directly into the K3, I use a MIC 
> setting of 15 on SSB to get 5-6 bars ALC with 0 CMP.  Using 
> this same MIC=15 setting, I adjust my soundcard output so 
> that both the Volume Control and Wave control are both 50%.  
> At this setting, I have no ALC and <50W output power (with 
> PWR set to 100).  I can increase MIC to about 21, where I'll 
> have nearly 100W output, but only 2 bars ALC.  If I back of 
> MIC only one step, to 20, I'll be one bar less than 100W, and 
> only one bar ALC.  If I increase MIC to 23, I get 3-4 bars 
> ALC and the ticking noise.  This seems very sensitive, and a 
> difficult tradeoff between getting 100W output and having the 
> ticking sound (which I'm guessing is some sort of 
> clipping/distortion).
> 
> Others have mentioned being able to use 5 bars ALC with AFSK 
> RTTY.  I can't get anything close to that.  I'd like to 
> reduce the MIC/ALC/output power tradeoff sensitivity.  I've 
> typically left the MIC gain alone on my rigs, and when 
> running AFSK RTTY, I would adjust the soundcard output to get 
> full ALC reading with no compression.  It seems that I can't 
> do that with my K3, only getting 2 bars ALC, and there's a 
> fine line (about 2-3 'clicks" on the MIC gain) between full 
> output power and ticking/distortion.
> 
> So I ask again, is there some specific idea you'd like me to 
> try that I haven't covered?
> 
> Chad WE9V
>  
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Jim Brown 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:37:17 -0600, Chad WE9V wrote:
> 
> >Any ideas out there?
> 
> Lots.
> 
> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/HamInterfacing.pdf
> 
> 73,
> 
> Jim K9YC
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Chad WE9V]

Because I use the same mic input during SSB operation, keeping the
configuration the same regardless of what radio is in that position.  The K3
is the only radio that has a line in.  And, I did try using the line in to
troubleshoot this problem.  Due to the 20dB attenuator that I'm using, I had
to crank up the sound card output to max, and turn the LINE IN gain up to a
whopping 40 (60 is max).  Even then, the same problem existed.  Very low ALC
and not 100W power, and turning it up just a hair more to get 3-4 bars ALC
resulted in the ticking/distortion.

Chad WE9V

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Toby Deinhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Just wondering, why not use the line in instead of the microphone input?
>
> vy 73 de toby
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Toby Deinhardt]

Just wondering, why not use the line in instead of the microphone input?

vy 73 de toby

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Chad WE9V]

Jim,

Thanks.  I've seen and read your document previously.  Is there something
specific you are referring me to in your document that I already haven't
covered?  Let me recap and add a couple points of clarification:

* It's not an RF problem, as it still exists in TX TEST mode.
* I do not have a hum/buzz problem.
* I've used this setup on microphone inputs of other radios, no problem.
(FT-920,990,1000)
* I am using audio transformers.  "Expensive" solution, but it's worked in
the past.
* I am using a ~20dB pad between the soundcard output and iso transformer.
(5600/560ohm)
* Duplicate 20dB pad/iso xfmr are on both channels, other channel driving
FT-1000 no problems.  Swapping L/R channels has problem follow K3, not
cable.
* I have 1.25" braid bonding K3>computer>FT-1000.
* I can turn the soundcard output down very low (<20%), but I have to turn
up the K3 MIC to get any power output.
* Using my Heil headset directly into the K3, I use a MIC setting of 15 on
SSB to get 5-6 bars ALC with 0 CMP.  Using this same MIC=15 setting, I
adjust my soundcard output so that both the Volume Control and Wave control
are both 50%.  At this setting, I have no ALC and <50W output power (with
PWR set to 100).  I can increase MIC to about 21, where I'll have nearly
100W output, but only 2 bars ALC.  If I back of MIC only one step, to 20,
I'll be one bar less than 100W, and only one bar ALC.  If I increase MIC to
23, I get 3-4 bars ALC and the ticking noise.  This seems very sensitive,
and a difficult tradeoff between getting 100W output and having the ticking
sound (which I'm guessing is some sort of clipping/distortion).

Others have mentioned being able to use 5 bars ALC with AFSK RTTY.  I can't
get anything close to that.  I'd like to reduce the MIC/ALC/output power
tradeoff sensitivity.  I've typically left the MIC gain alone on my rigs,
and when running AFSK RTTY, I would adjust the soundcard output to get full
ALC reading with no compression.  It seems that I can't do that with my K3,
only getting 2 bars ALC, and there's a fine line (about 2-3 'clicks" on the
MIC gain) between full output power and ticking/distortion.

So I ask again, is there some specific idea you'd like me to try that I
haven't covered?

Chad WE9V


On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Jim Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:37:17 -0600, Chad WE9V wrote:
>
> >Any ideas out there?
>
> Lots.
>
> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/HamInterfacing.pdf
>
> 73,
>
> Jim K9YC
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Jim Brown]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:37:17 -0600, Chad WE9V wrote:

>Any ideas out there?  

Lots. 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/HamInterfacing.pdf

73,

Jim K9YC



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC

[Chad WE9V]

Radio is in DATA operating mode, with DATA MD set to AFSK A.

Not sure what you mean by soundcard setting.  I'm using the stereo line out,
with isolation transformers on each channel, with left channel going to K3
and right channel going to FT-1000.  Audio is fine on FT-1000 TX.  Swapping
the L/R so that the FT-1000 audio channel is driving the K3 has the same
ticking/overdrive issue on the K3, at least until MIC gain is set to only 2
bars.  Reducing the soundcard output and then compensating with MIC gain
also has the same results.  Only 2 ALC bars are allowed, beyond which the
ticking sound begins.

Chad WE9V

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  What setting do you have your soundcard set to?  And, do you have the
> radio in Data mode and DATA MD set to AFSK, Data-A or FSK-D?
>
> Greg
> AB7R
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Chad WE9V <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:37 AM
> *Subject:* [Elecraft] K3 AFSK RTTY overdrive - no ALC
>
> I'm no stranger to soundcard RTTY or to my K3, but today I decided to mix
> the two and fire up MMTTY on the K3.  The first thing I noticed is that
> there was a very strange ticking sound in the monitor.  While it was
> difficult to hear on frequency on another radio, you could hear clicking
> off-frequency.
>
> Long story short, I guess it was due to overdriving.  If I backed the mic
> gain WAY down, or the soundcard output way down, the clicking went away.
> (I'm using FP.L - the same connection as I do for soundcard SSB.)  Upon
> further investigation, I need to set the MIC gain to light up only 2 bars on
> the ALC meter.  Anything less and I'm not getting full output power.
> Anything more and I'm getting the ticking sound (assumed to be overdrive).
> I can't get nowhere near 5 bars of ALC, and this setting is very touchy...a
> fine line between full output power and distortion.
>
> I've used this same soundcard and homebrew interface for many, many years,
> on several different radios.  It does include isolation transformers and
> works fine on SSB.  I've also listened to the monitor while in TX TEST mode,
> and the same problem exists, so it's not an RF issue with the station.  It's
> definitely audio related.  I've tried FP.L, RP.L, and LINE, all with the
> same results.  For the LINE, I had to crank up the soundcard to max output
> and MIC all the way up to 40 (of 60) just to get 2 bars of ALC and nearly
> full output power.  Any further and again I hear the ticking/distortion.
>
> I got the the latest SW (well, prior to 11/18 it was the newest),
> 2.63/1.95.
>
> Any ideas out there?  I'd like to run this thing with a few more ALC bars
> and have it so it's not so touchy between having distortion and getting full
> output power.  I've seen emails from others saying they are able to run 5
> ALC bars.  Not sure why I can't.
>
> 73 and thanks,
> Chad WE9V
>
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