Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Yes, that is exactly what I understand now. The GRANULARITY of the display is higher or lower depending on the s;oce of bandwidth selected and displayed on the screen. The narrower the slice, the smaller the granularity. I thought the P3 was like the old fashioned external VFO units that took over the frequency generation on the rig. It is not, its just a read out. I'm straight on this now. Shouldn't try to multitask too much at work :) Not enough cycles delegated to groking the information. -lu- -Original Message- From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:w3...@embarqmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 2:50 PM To: lrom...@ij.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY Lu, I don't think the accuracy is a problem, it is the rounding of the frequency that is displayed on the P3 - that is simply resolution of the frequency indicated. At least that is my understanding from a perusal of the P3 manual. The screen is continuous, but a frequency of 7035.265 displayed on the K3 will be 7035.3 on the P3 In fact, any frequency between 7035.250 and 7035.349 will show up on the P3 as 7035.3 If there are several signals in that 100 Hertz span, you should be able to point to one of them and click - the K3 should show the low order digits, the P3 will not. 73, Don W3FPR Lu Romero wrote: > So now I am getting a much better understanding... > > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. > > . > > Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the > above systems? > > -lu-w4lt- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message Checked by PC Tools AntiVirus (6.1.0.25 - 6.14880). http://www.pctools.com/free-antivirus/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Wouldn't I/Q outputs from the P3 have given you both right now? Dave AB7E On 8/13/2010 9:09 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > You just described the problem most SDRs have (excluding Skimmer). You must > manually point a mouse or turn/press a knob to QSY. The advantage Skimmer > has is that your fingers never need to leave your logging keyboard to do > super-fast S&P on the same band the K3 is on. > > Up Arrow to the next higher decoder dot (or Down Arrow for lower). > Identify by ear or contest logger's bandmap color code. > Work if needed; ignore if not. > Up Arrow to the next. > > This is S much faster than using either a mouse or knob that it's a huge > advantage (e.g. CT1BOH below)...and it's perfectly legal for unassisted mode > when using Skimmer's Blind Mode (no text decoding). > > http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html > > If the P3 can solve the zero-beat QSY issue, hopefully there can also be > keyboard control to jump to the next station. This would put it a step > ahead of Skimmer because of the advantages the P3 has in SPAN widths and VFO > flexibility (either A or B using A's IF OUT). > > 73, Bill > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Lu Romero - W4LT wrote: > > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON > the signal I have selected. > You just described the problem most SDRs have (excluding Skimmer). You must manually point a mouse or turn/press a knob to QSY. The advantage Skimmer has is that your fingers never need to leave your logging keyboard to do super-fast S&P on the same band the K3 is on. Up Arrow to the next higher decoder dot (or Down Arrow for lower). Identify by ear or contest logger's bandmap color code. Work if needed; ignore if not. Up Arrow to the next. This is S much faster than using either a mouse or knob that it's a huge advantage (e.g. CT1BOH below)...and it's perfectly legal for unassisted mode when using Skimmer's Blind Mode (no text decoding). http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html If the P3 can solve the zero-beat QSY issue, hopefully there can also be keyboard control to jump to the next station. This would put it a step ahead of Skimmer because of the advantages the P3 has in SPAN widths and VFO flexibility (either A or B using A's IF OUT). 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5420592.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Technically, Joe, with PowerSDR/IF in Collapsed view you can fill the screen with the panadapter/waterfall up to the video card's maximum setting. I run my monitor at 1680 x 1200 and can fill the screen if I want to. Collapsed view is not available in the Flex Radio release of PowerSDR. For your example 100kHz span, that would give a pixel resolution of about 60Hz, since the RBW is better than 1 pixel at that span. According to the P3 manual, the P3's RBW at 100kHz span would be 10/450=~222 Hz. I assume they only display 450 pixels, so the pixel resolution would also be 222Hz. PowerSDR/IF has a definite advantage in pixel resolution at wide spans. P3 has an advantage at very narrow spans since PowerSDR uses a fixed sample rate. If PowerSDR/IF is set for 48kHz sampling rate, the resolution at narrow spans would be 4x better than at 192kHz, of course. 73, Larry N8LP > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. You take what I said out of context. That statement was in reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY is never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY. That divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display ROUNDS to the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz). > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON > the signal I have selected. If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However, it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution - if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100 KHz in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA screen), the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360). If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full screen mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will represent about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the spectrum/waterfall is not full width) and you can get within +/-35 Hz. The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy is SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span, 100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents the resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see it as a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes sense on a relatively quiet band and you're not going to be using a 50 Hz wide filter under those circumstances. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5420223.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
+ and - 100 Hz has worked quite well for breaking some pileups, and still well within the +/- 250 Hz that puts one into the serious annoyance category for the fellows up and down frequency. While it really is nice to know that the P3 *WILL* set you fairly dead on for digital signals, the degree of accuracy being discussed in this thread, IMHO, is a far greater sharpness than needed to tack up the note in a CW contest. More like measuring board widths with a micrometer. For those who simply don't have the tone sensitivity to set zero beat by ear, even 50 Hz would be way better than some who apparently can't get it within 250 Hz and then SPOT the misread. Such an individual will be able to set themselves just about spot on. But even the it's-only-as-good-as-plus-or-minus-fifty scenario put forth by the gentleman would have been good enough for a CW contest and certainly would not have been the implied "tragedy". EITHER what he said or what you said bring it into clear usefulness for my purposes. I'll take the better without any complaints. : >) 73, Guy. On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > Guy, K2AV wrote: >> >> Actually... >> >> In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact >> same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to >> your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the >> crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break >> through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If >> you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down >> 20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW >> packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who >> read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I >> have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if >> you DON'T use it.) >> >> So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given >> what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES >> still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect >> centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big >> easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers, >> consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob. >> >> 50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST >> K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or >> 250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many >> of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying >> blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50 >> Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation. >> > > I strongly disagree. Ideally, the P3 should send the receiver VFO (not the > transmitter) to exact zero-beat (as CW Skimmer does). If you *then* choose > to set XIT for a consistent + or - 50 Hz offset, that's very easy to do. If > the receiver does not go to zero beat, you have no way to set your > consistent 50 Hz offset and in fact will be randomly between 0 and 100 Hz > off, depending on which side of zero-beat the P3 sends the K3 to (+50 +50 = > +100, and -50 +50 = 0, where VFO is the first number and XIT is the second). > > The lack of true zero-beat capability is the major missing piece in the P3 > and is why I'll continue to use CW Skimmer (even with its 24 kHz limitation) > with my K3. Alan is very aware of this need, there are multiple > implementation possibilities, and I'm sure he'll find the best solution. > But I would not like for him to walk away from this discussion thinking true > zero-beat capability is not needed. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5419946.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Guy, K2AV wrote: > > Actually... > > In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact > same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to > your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the > crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break > through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If > you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down > 20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW > packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who > read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I > have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if > you DON'T use it.) > > So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given > what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES > still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect > centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big > easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers, > consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob. > > 50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST > K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or > 250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many > of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying > blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50 > Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation. > I strongly disagree. Ideally, the P3 should send the receiver VFO (not the transmitter) to exact zero-beat (as CW Skimmer does). If you *then* choose to set XIT for a consistent + or - 50 Hz offset, that's very easy to do. If the receiver does not go to zero beat, you have no way to set your consistent 50 Hz offset and in fact will be randomly between 0 and 100 Hz off, depending on which side of zero-beat the P3 sends the K3 to (+50 +50 = +100, and -50 +50 = 0, where VFO is the first number and XIT is the second). The lack of true zero-beat capability is the major missing piece in the P3 and is why I'll continue to use CW Skimmer (even with its 24 kHz limitation) with my K3. Alan is very aware of this need, there are multiple implementation possibilities, and I'm sure he'll find the best solution. But I would not like for him to walk away from this discussion thinking true zero-beat capability is not needed. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5419946.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Lest the list owners are thinking this topic is being discussed to death: I am actually thankful this discussion has been going on as it finally clicked with me how to set both my P3 and K3 for a more accurate readout. Even though I followed the calibation proceedure after building the K3 I never really felt the digital readout was as accurate as could be. But now I understand what I needed to do and why. Thanks for the unintentional help here in the forums. John K2QY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
No worries. I figured this stuff out in a later post. The K3 is the boss, the P3 is the slave. Sorry about the bandwidth. I aint thinking correctly at work. Trying to do too much at once. -lu- - Original Message Follows - From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net, Lu Romero Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:23:09 -0400 > > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than >50 > > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is >somewhat > > acceptable. > >You take what I said out of context. That statement was in >reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY >is never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY. > That divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display >ROUNDS to the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz). > > > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD >ON > > the signal I have selected. > >If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a >signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However, >it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in >any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution - >if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100 >KHz in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA >screen), the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360). > >If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full >screen mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will >represent about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the >spectrum/waterfall is not full width) and you can get >within +/-35 Hz. > >The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy >is SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span, >100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents >the resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see >it as a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes >sense on a relatively quiet band and you're not going to be >using a 50 Hz wide filter under those circumstances. > >73, > >... Joe, W4TV > >On 8/12/2010 2:11 PM, Lu Romero wrote: >> So now I am getting a much better understanding... >> >> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than >> 50 cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly >> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat >> acceptable. >> >> However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD >> ON the signal I have selected. >> >> I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it >> will function just like the Flex (it is the same software >> front end after all)? >> >> And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate. >> >> This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult >> operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be >> much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a >> Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro >> Magic CWT solution, right? The upside is that no >> computer is needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO). >> >> Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of >> the above systems? >> >> -lu-w4lt- >> >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. You take what I said out of context. That statement was in reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY is never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY. That divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display ROUNDS to the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz). > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON > the signal I have selected. If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However, it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution - if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100 KHz in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA screen), the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360). If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full screen mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will represent about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the spectrum/waterfall is not full width) and you can get within +/-35 Hz. The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy is SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span, 100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents the resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see it as a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes sense on a relatively quiet band and you're not going to be using a 50 Hz wide filter under those circumstances. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/12/2010 2:11 PM, Lu Romero wrote: > So now I am getting a much better understanding... > > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. > > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON > the signal I have selected. > > I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it > will function just like the Flex (it is the same software > front end after all)? > > And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate. > > This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult > operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be > much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a > Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro Magic > CWT solution, right? The upside is that no computer is > needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO). > > Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the > above systems? > > -lu-w4lt- > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two > digits would be very helpful. You don't need the extra digits for REF CAL. Simply zero beat your reference signal on the K3, Hold "CENTER" twice to align the P3 Center frequency with the K3, then turn on REF CAL and adjust the signal so it is centered in the display. P3 REF CAL doesn't care about the frequency of the signal you are using for alignment. The only thing REF CAL does is to move the spectrum/Waterfall display so it aligns with the frequency reported by the K3. You can even use one of those strange beacons on a "odd" frequency as long as you properly tune the station and do "CENTER" "CENTER" before adjusting REF CAL. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/12/2010 12:31 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > I agree with you for once Joe... 50Hz sounds right. If you Ref cal from that > point than you'll most likely be 4 to 5Hz off. I've not once been able to > get it to 1Hz resolution. Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but > having the extra two digits would be very helpful. > >> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400 >> From: li...@subich.com >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY >> >> >>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't >>> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line >>> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. >> >> You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the >> K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center >> Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again. >> The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ... >> the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from >> 9.999.950 to 10.000.049). >> >>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on >>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say >>> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob >>> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm >>> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. >> >> No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just >> explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not >> truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency >> to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as >> documented in the manual. >> >>> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been >>> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out >>> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses >>> things more. >> >> If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and >> use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will >> get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order >> of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions >> from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue. >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> On 8/12/2010 2:09 AM, The Smiths wrote: >>> >>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't >>> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line >>> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter >>> how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with >>> the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't >>> change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or >>> down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing >>> between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from >>> each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down >>> to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than >>> obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. >>> >>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on >>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say >>> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob >>> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm >>> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and >>> that's after I set that center as clos
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Lu, I don't think the accuracy is a problem, it is the rounding of the frequency that is displayed on the P3 - that is simply resolution of the frequency indicated. At least that is my understanding from a perusal of the P3 manual. The screen is continuous, but a frequency of 7035.265 displayed on the K3 will be 7035.3 on the P3 In fact, any frequency between 7035.250 and 7035.349 will show up on the P3 as 7035.3 If there are several signals in that 100 Hertz span, you should be able to point to one of them and click - the K3 should show the low order digits, the P3 will not. 73, Don W3FPR Lu Romero wrote: > So now I am getting a much better understanding... > > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. > > . > > Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the > above systems? > > -lu-w4lt- > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... > That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it. 50 Hz is only the accuracy of the readout. Set Span to 2 KHz and move MKR A ... you will notice it moves with much finer resolution than 100 Hz steps. With a span of 50 KHz I can see 10 Hz steps in the frequency sent to the K3 when tapping the select knob. With a 100 KHz span, 50 Hz accuracy/resolution on select seems easy. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/12/2010 12:28 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still > wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it. > >> From: br...@livecomputers.com >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:15:02 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY >> To: notforc...@hotmail.com >> CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are >> synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to >> 7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and >> K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the >> frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on. >> I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3. >> >> ~Brett (N7MG) >> >> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths wrote: >>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically >>> sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and >>> usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can >>> move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" >>> adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until >>> you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that >>> SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be >>> 100Hz apart from each other. >>> Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 >>> before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and >>> the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. >>> >>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on >>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it >>> does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 >>> reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be >>> 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as >>> close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. >>> Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 >>> display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra >>> 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. >>> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set >>> correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by >>> that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more. >>> >>> I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the >>> sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz >>> accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going >>> to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the >>> center that you just calibrated it to. >>> You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on >>> here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been >>> discussing this. >>> >>> The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind >>> coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, >>> and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a >>> difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The >>> accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all >>> indicate it. >>> I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this >>> friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. >>> He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, >>> then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the >>>
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
No what is going on is the P3 only displays one decimal point after Khz. Its dead on and it knows what the actual frequency is its just that it rounds it to save a little space at the center of the display. Move your eyes over to the radio or your logging software and you get a full readout of the same frequency from the same source the P3 is collecting it (the radio). Its not that you're off frequency its just that you're seeing a rounded copy of it on the P3. However once you center the P3 on the radios frequency you know that the P3 and the radio are in sync with one another and on the same frequency. ~Brett (N7MG) On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Lu Romero wrote: > So now I am getting a much better understanding... > > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat > acceptable. > > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON > the signal I have selected. > > I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it > will function just like the Flex (it is the same software > front end after all)? > > And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate. > > This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult > operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be > much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a > Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro Magic > CWT solution, right? The upside is that no computer is > needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO). > > Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the > above systems? > > -lu-w4lt- > > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400 > From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Message-ID: <4c639b93.8030...@subich.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 > doesn't >> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The > Center line >> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. > > You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz > from the > K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the > "Center > Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" > again. > The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 > frequency ... > the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show > 10.000.0 from > 9.999.950 to 10.000.049). > >> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, > put it on >> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. > Let's say >> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your > VFO knob >> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 > displaying? I'm >> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. > > No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as > I just > explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version > (not > truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center > frequency > to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process > as > documented in the manual. > >> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center > has been >> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have > EVERYTHING out >> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just > confuses >> things more. > > If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the > manual and > use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, > you will > get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the > order > of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the > instructions > from those who designed the product and stop trying to > argue. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
So now I am getting a much better understanding... What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50 cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat acceptable. However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON the signal I have selected. I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it will function just like the Flex (it is the same software front end after all)? And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate. This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro Magic CWT solution, right? The upside is that no computer is needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO). Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the above systems? -lu-w4lt- Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: <4c639b93.8030...@subich.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't > automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line > on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again. The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ... the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from 9.999.950 to 10.000.049). > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say > that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob > up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm > sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as documented in the manual. > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been > set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out > of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses > things more. If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Actually... In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down 20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if you DON'T use it.) So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers, consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob. 50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or 250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50 Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation. As I have sort of been on the fence as to usefulness of a P3, you have convinced me that a SPECTRUM DISPLAY, of all things, can be SO ACCURATE, that by dropping the K3 to within 50 Hz of a VERY sharp display blip, I would hear the blip station even if I forgot to back off 50 Hz selectivity before QSY. In contrast to your presentation that the 50 Hz is some kind of failure, inattention to proper level of details or some such, you may have sold the P3 to a long time cranky hard-to-convince, uses-narrow-filter-settings-all-the-time CW contester, who probably wasn't going to buy one. Fixing the P3 50 Hz "problem" is probably one of these how-many-angels-fit-on-the-head-of-a-pin controversies with a solution that doesn't appear to warrant serious Elecraft business development money when other good stuff is on the way. But thanks for the dissertation, folks. 73, Guy. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still > wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
This is an excellent point. Thank you for illustrating it. With a narrow filter, 100Hz resolution does not cut it in CW, although W4TV's proposed CWT "macro magic" will work around it, that is, if we could learn what the macro definitions would be with a programming manual. :) I would like to know if this frequency resolution issue, along with the line cursor thickness and placement, the memory "permanence" issues and the Programming Manual Release are on the product roadmap schedule and will be addressed in future releases of firmware before I place a P3 on my family's Christmas Present list. I also agree with a previous poster that it would be "helpful" if the markers tallied the VFO selections and some of the params from the rig were displayed on the P3 screen. My station layout is identical to his, with the planned deployment of the P3 in the center, the computer monitor above it, the K3 to the right and the computer keyboard directly below it. Although I could rationalize the lack of a screen "repeater" of the K3 parameters because I can see those same parameters (filter settings, frequency, VFO selections) on the computer logger screen... The biggie for me is the resolution and line thickness/orientation issues. Im glad you guys are finding them ad are clearly defining them here. Thank you, brave pioneers, for geting there before me! You seem to wear the arrows in your back rather well. -lu-w4lt- Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:09:23 +0000 From: The Smiths Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To: , Elecraft Reflector Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more. I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been discussing this. The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all indicate it. I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000. You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm not going to argue any further o
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
I agree with you for once Joe... 50Hz sounds right. If you Ref cal from that point than you'll most likely be 4 to 5Hz off. I've not once been able to get it to 1Hz resolution. Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two digits would be very helpful. > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400 > From: li...@subich.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > > > > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't > > automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line > > on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. > > You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the > K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center > Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again. > The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ... > the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from > 9.999.950 to 10.000.049). > > > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on > > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say > > that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob > > up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm > > sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. > > No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just > explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not > truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency > to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as > documented in the manual. > > > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been > > set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out > > of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses > > things more. > > If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and > use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will > get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order > of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions > from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 8/12/2010 2:09 AM, The Smiths wrote: > > > > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't > > automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line > > on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter > > how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with > > the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't > > change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or > > down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing > > between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from > > each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down > > to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than > > obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. > > > > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on > > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say > > that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob > > up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm > > sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and > > that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig > > displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down > > until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says > > 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in > > order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You > > just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set > > correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of > > wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses > > things more. > > > > I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head > > in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 > > with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY > > button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the > > display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it > > to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why A
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it. > From: br...@livecomputers.com > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:15:02 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > To: notforc...@hotmail.com > CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are > synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to > 7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and > K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the > frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on. > I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3. > > ~Brett (N7MG) > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically > > sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and > > usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can > > move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" > > adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until > > you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that > > SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be > > 100Hz apart from each other. > > Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 > > before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and > > the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. > > > > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on > > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it > > does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 > > reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be > > 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as > > close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. > > Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 > > display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra > > 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. > > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set > > correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by > > that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more. > > > > I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the > > sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz > > accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going > > to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the > > center that you just calibrated it to. > > You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on > > here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been > > discussing this. > > > > The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind > > coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, > > and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a > > difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The > > accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all > > indicate it. > > I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this > > friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. > > He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, > > then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the > > center display freq. > > This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the > > Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you > > didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000. > > > > You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm > > not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me > > off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as > > well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my > > explanation doesn't make sense to you. > > > > > > > > > >> Fr
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
r, > then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to > the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3 > on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. > You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3 > wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000. > > You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, > and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free > to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further. > That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and > explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to > you. > > > > >> From: br...@livecomputers.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To: >> notforc...@hotmail.com >> >> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 >> to tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra >> precision on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last >> post. I think you're over analyzing it and making it more >> complicated than it needs to be. Its not that hard to understand >> whats going on there I think most hams would get it. Those who >> don't get it its probably not important to. >> >> ~Brett (N7MG) >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: > http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: > mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this > email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to 7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on. I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3. ~Brett (N7MG) On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths wrote: > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically > sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and > usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can > move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" > adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until > you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that > SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be > 100Hz apart from each other. > Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 > before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and > the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. > > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it > does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 > reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be > 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as > close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. > Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 > display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra > 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set > correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by > that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more. > > I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the > sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz > accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going > to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the > center that you just calibrated it to. > You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on > here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been > discussing this. > > The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind > coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, > and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a > difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The > accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all > indicate it. > I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this > friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. > He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, > then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the > center display freq. > This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the > Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you > didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000. > > You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm > not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me > off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as > well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my > explanation doesn't make sense to you. > > > > >> From: br...@livecomputers.com >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY >> To: notforc...@hotmail.com >> >> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to >> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision >> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I >> think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it >> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I >> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not >> important to. >> >> ~Brett (N7MG) >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz. Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more. I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been discussing this. The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all indicate it. I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000. You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to you. > From: br...@livecomputers.com > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > To: notforc...@hotmail.com > > The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to > tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision > on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I > think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it > needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I > think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not > important to. > > ~Brett (N7MG) > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
The center follows the K3 you can tell where it is based on the fact that there is a K3 next to you. So long as you've got the two synced and don't have a center offset in you know where the center is. ~Brett (N7MG) On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:19 PM, The Smiths wrote: > > Bill, > > I'm going to try to be as least condescending as I can. Please forgive me if > I go astray. I tend to get very snippety when I'm being treated as if I'm > dumb... > > Before you can even begin to set the Ref-Cal on the P3 you must FIRST know > that the center line on the P3 is actually the center of the Freq. it is > displaying. I'm sure by seeing your answer to my email that this is > something that has completely alluded you. What you are suggesting, and the > manual for that matter, is that what ever the display says is the center > Freq. is going to be an accurate reading. This is just plain and outright > ridiculous. If you have taken the time to really think about what is going > on here you would come to the realization that there is only 1 ONE digit > after the KHz freq. display on the P3 Center line (IE 10.000.0) > > If you look at the centering adjustment for the P3 you will notice that the > display will NOT change from the 10.000.0 position until you reach the > 10.000.1 (+100Hz) or 9.999.9 (-100Hz) frequency. Therefore logic dictates > that if you try to adjust a center and just arbitrarily use any position > between 10.000.1 and 9.999.9 as your center you have a 1 in 100Hz chance of > being centered on the Zero beat of WWV in this case (10.000.000 being the > center carrier freq. of wwv in the USA. Not 10.000.099). > > In other words, this means that if you were to even attempt to adjust your > Ref-cal alignment on the P3 before finding the best "FUZZY" center of > 10.000.000 you can, your REF-CAL alignment will NEVER be closer than the > center you have set it to. So, now adding both the complete inaccuracy of the > "Center alignment" of up to 100Hz, and the best possible marker accuracy of > 5Hz (in the 2KHz span), you can NEVER set the P3 closer than 5Hz with any > actual accuracy. And That of of course would require you making a really > really good guesstimation of where the Fuzzy Center on the P3 is by finding > the highest number before the flip, and the lowest number before the flip > from 10.000.0, then moving the select knob to as close a center of each as > you can. > > Would you put your K3 on 10.000.0, turning off the extra 2 digits and try to > set your Config: Ref-Cal alignment to Zero beat WWV? Because this is exactly > what you are suggesting others do by telling them that the "Center" alignment > has nothing to do with the Ref Cal alignment on the P3. > Elecraft has GOT TO add those two other digits into the display if anyone is > going to have an accurate centering of their P3 before they do the Ref Cal > alignment. This is IMPERATIVE to the CW operator that relies on being able > to use 50Hz wide filters. > > This is forgetting the fact that on 3 of the units I have helped align so far > they have ALL been off frequency with both Center and Ref Cal by as much as > -300. Well, -160 when first turned on, -220 about a half hour later, and > then -300 about an hour later. The drift is incredible on the P3, a .05 or > even 1ppm crystal it does not have. > I would suggest to EVERYONE that has the P3 they wait AT LEAST and hour > (assuming you generally use your P3 for more than an hour when you operate it > on a normal day) before setting their REF Cal alignment. But without doubt, > before you do that, make sure that you know the center mark on your P3 is > actually the center you're looking for. > > I think it's time for the manual to change how the alignment has been > written, not how I'm doing my alignment. Thank you. > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:08:04 -0700 >> From: btipp...@alum.mit.edu >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY >> >> >> >> The Smiths wrote: >> > >> > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" >> > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be >> > within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys >> > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This >> > would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero >> > Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow >> > to the CW guys. >> > >> >> You may not be doing Refe
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Bill, I'm going to try to be as least condescending as I can. Please forgive me if I go astray. I tend to get very snippety when I'm being treated as if I'm dumb... Before you can even begin to set the Ref-Cal on the P3 you must FIRST know that the center line on the P3 is actually the center of the Freq. it is displaying. I'm sure by seeing your answer to my email that this is something that has completely alluded you. What you are suggesting, and the manual for that matter, is that what ever the display says is the center Freq. is going to be an accurate reading. This is just plain and outright ridiculous. If you have taken the time to really think about what is going on here you would come to the realization that there is only 1 ONE digit after the KHz freq. display on the P3 Center line (IE 10.000.0) If you look at the centering adjustment for the P3 you will notice that the display will NOT change from the 10.000.0 position until you reach the 10.000.1 (+100Hz) or 9.999.9 (-100Hz) frequency. Therefore logic dictates that if you try to adjust a center and just arbitrarily use any position between 10.000.1 and 9.999.9 as your center you have a 1 in 100Hz chance of being centered on the Zero beat of WWV in this case (10.000.000 being the center carrier freq. of wwv in the USA. Not 10.000.099). In other words, this means that if you were to even attempt to adjust your Ref-cal alignment on the P3 before finding the best "FUZZY" center of 10.000.000 you can, your REF-CAL alignment will NEVER be closer than the center you have set it to. So, now adding both the complete inaccuracy of the "Center alignment" of up to 100Hz, and the best possible marker accuracy of 5Hz (in the 2KHz span), you can NEVER set the P3 closer than 5Hz with any actual accuracy. And That of of course would require you making a really really good guesstimation of where the Fuzzy Center on the P3 is by finding the highest number before the flip, and the lowest number before the flip from 10.000.0, then moving the select knob to as close a center of each as you can. Would you put your K3 on 10.000.0, turning off the extra 2 digits and try to set your Config: Ref-Cal alignment to Zero beat WWV? Because this is exactly what you are suggesting others do by telling them that the "Center" alignment has nothing to do with the Ref Cal alignment on the P3. Elecraft has GOT TO add those two other digits into the display if anyone is going to have an accurate centering of their P3 before they do the Ref Cal alignment. This is IMPERATIVE to the CW operator that relies on being able to use 50Hz wide filters. This is forgetting the fact that on 3 of the units I have helped align so far they have ALL been off frequency with both Center and Ref Cal by as much as -300. Well, -160 when first turned on, -220 about a half hour later, and then -300 about an hour later. The drift is incredible on the P3, a .05 or even 1ppm crystal it does not have. I would suggest to EVERYONE that has the P3 they wait AT LEAST and hour (assuming you generally use your P3 for more than an hour when you operate it on a normal day) before setting their REF Cal alignment. But without doubt, before you do that, make sure that you know the center mark on your P3 is actually the center you're looking for. I think it's time for the manual to change how the alignment has been written, not how I'm doing my alignment. Thank you. > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:08:04 -0700 > From: btipp...@alum.mit.edu > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > > > > The Smiths wrote: > > > > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" > > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be > > within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys > > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This > > would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero > > Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow > > to the CW guys. > > > > You may not be doing Reference Calibration correctly if you are using the > digital frequency readout on the P3. You don't need anything except the > Spectrum display (step 5 below). From page 19 of the manual: > > Frequency Calibration > > Turn on the transceiver and P3 and allow > them to warm up for 30 minutes, minimum, > before performing the calibration. > > 1. If the transceiver has a calibration procedure to > correct its frequency errors, perform that > procedure first. > > 2. Using a well-calibrated signal generator or an > on-the air carrier signal of known frequency, > tune in the signal on t
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
I'd recommend if you want to add a K3 menu item that you'd enter the menu and then press the P3 button that you want to assign. Just like you'd press M1-M4 or PF1/PF2. I think the P3 should feel like its got no disconnection between it and the K3. It should feel as if it would be 100% natural if the P3 was simply a screen inside the K3. Not to mention that when the K3 menu is entered the menu should be displayed on the P3. Thus it becomes even clearer that you can assign menu functions to the K3. One other point of note is that when a P3 menu item that only has two states is assigned to a PFx button pressing that button should toggle that setting like the K3 does rather than only pulling up the item. ~Brett (N7MG) On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: > Currently, only P3 menu functions can be assigned to the function keys, > however including K3 macros is an obvious enhancement. The main issue > is the user interface - what should be the key press sequence to tell > the P3 which K3 key you want to assign? This could be done by adding > the feature to P3 Utility, but I'd like to figure out a way to do it > without a computer connected. > > Alan > > > On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 00:16 +0100, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: >> So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? >> I did ask about that here, but no reply. Where in the manual does it explain >> about that please? >> PS - My P3 should arrive tomorrow, details when I get them. >> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> The main issue is the user interface - what should be the key press > sequence to tell the P3 which K3 key you want to assign? This could > be done by adding the feature to P3 Utility, but I'd like to figure > out a way to do it without a computer connected. Other than a limited number of pre-defined functions (e.g., toggle SPKR+PH or B->A) assigning functions to the K3 programmable keys PF1, PF2, M1T - M4T, M1H - M4H) requires that they be uploaded from K3 Utility and then assigned with the K3 menu. I don't see that assigning functions not already built into the P3 (particularly multi- step and/or mixed K3/P3 functions) needs to be any different. It would certainly be possible to build a complete on screen, menu driven function editor that displayed a list of all K3/P3 commands, let the user scroll through them with "select," choose them with "tap" and save the entire macro with "hold." It could even be "smart" and prompt for parameters (e.g., value, index, text, etc.) where appropriate (e.g. FW; or IS;) but it's probably easier for the user to edit/test macros from the P3 Utility "Command Tester" and upload the final result instead of trying to do on-screen compose with the select/tap/hold dance. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/11/2010 8:46 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: > Currently, only P3 menu functions can be assigned to the function keys, > however including K3 macros is an obvious enhancement. The main issue > is the user interface - what should be the key press sequence to tell > the P3 which K3 key you want to assign? This could be done by adding > the feature to P3 Utility, but I'd like to figure out a way to do it > without a computer connected. > > Alan > > > On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 00:16 +0100, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: >> So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? >> I did ask about that here, but no reply. Where in the manual does it explain >> about that please? >> PS - My P3 should arrive tomorrow, details when I get them. >> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Currently, only P3 menu functions can be assigned to the function keys, however including K3 macros is an obvious enhancement. The main issue is the user interface - what should be the key press sequence to tell the P3 which K3 key you want to assign? This could be done by adding the feature to P3 Utility, but I'd like to figure out a way to do it without a computer connected. Alan On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 00:16 +0100, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: > So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? > I did ask about that here, but no reply. Where in the manual does it explain > about that please? > PS - My P3 should arrive tomorrow, details when I get them. > 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? Yes, that was straight from Eric on this list some months ago when discussing the P3 after it was shown - in Orlando I think. Unfortunately the P3 manual does not provide any information on storing macros and the "P3 Programmers Manual" has not been released so we can't do any macro programming of the P3. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/11/2010 7:16 PM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: > So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? I did ask > about that here, but no reply. Where in the manual does it explain > about that please? PS - My P3 should arrive tomorrow, details when I > get them. 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
So it is possible to put K3 macros on the P3 function keys? I did ask about that here, but no reply. Where in the manual does it explain about that please? PS - My P3 should arrive tomorrow, details when I get them. 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 -- The lame man who keeps the right road outstrips the runner who takes a wrong one. The more active and swift the latter is, the further he will go astray. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) On 11 Aug 2010, at 19:34, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > >> Larry - K2GN wrote: >>> >>> Solution: Use the MKR A to get to the high side of the freq, > > And if you want to completely automate it from the P3, write > a macro that turns on the K3 auto tune (tap CWT) then taps Spot > and turns off auto tune (tap CWT). Store that to one of the > P3 Function buttons > > If the P3 Programmers Guide were available, the macro could be > extended to include the P3 "tap" function and turning off the > marker when finished. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
The Smiths wrote: > > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be > within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This > would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero > Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow > to the CW guys. > You may not be doing Reference Calibration correctly if you are using the digital frequency readout on the P3. You don't need anything except the Spectrum display (step 5 below). From page 19 of the manual: Frequency Calibration Turn on the transceiver and P3 and allow them to warm up for 30 minutes, minimum, before performing the calibration. 1. If the transceiver has a calibration procedure to correct its frequency errors, perform that procedure first. 2. Using a well-calibrated signal generator or an on-the air carrier signal of known frequency, tune in the signal on the transceiver. An A.M. broadcast station can serve as a suitable test signal. 3. Adjust the transceiver frequency to the known frequency of the test signal. Depending upon the modulation mode of the transceiver, the signal may not be audible. 4. Set the P3 for minimum span and adjust the reference level and scale so you can easily see the signal. 5. Select MENU:Ref Cal, tap the SELECT knob, and adjust the frequency calibration until the carrier is centered horizontally on the display. If the required correction is more than a few kHz, it may be that the I.F. frequency is set incorrectly. That can be adjusted via MENU:Xcvr Def. The P3's Ref Cal steps in the menu are 10 Hz but that's close enough for accurately QSYing to even a 50 Hz bandwidth. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413530.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> Larry - K2GN wrote: >> >> Solution: Use the MKR A to get to the high side of the freq, And if you want to completely automate it from the P3, write a macro that turns on the K3 auto tune (tap CWT) then taps Spot and turns off auto tune (tap CWT). Store that to one of the P3 Function buttons If the P3 Programmers Guide were available, the macro could be extended to include the P3 "tap" function and turning off the marker when finished. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/11/2010 2:15 PM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > Larry - K2GN wrote: >> >> Solution: Use the MKR A to get to the high side of the freq, >> > > This is key and I had forgotten because it had become second nature. Since > the MKR trace is 2 pixels wide, it cannot be placed exactly on a 1 pixel > wide signal. Apparently Alan chose to set it this way which is why I want > him to go to 1 pixel width (like the white Spectrum Center Line). Meanwhile > what Larry says is true...at least for UCW which is what I use. > > Graphically, it should look like this: > > MM > S > > Not this: > > MM >S > > What I want is this: > > M (i.e. 1 pixel) > S > > 73, Bill > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Wow. Better hand-eye coordination I guess. Yes, I would prefer that the marker be only 1 pixel wide also. An auto-spot-on-QSY feature would be sufficient for CW use I suppose. I'll just try harder in the interim. I did receive a postcard recently from my optometrist, reminding me that I was due for an eye exam. I think I may need to get over there right away! Bob NW8L On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Bob Cunnings [via Elecraft] < > ml-node+5413008-376189874-210...@n2.nabble.com >> wrote: > >> >> The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when >> using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could >> see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might, >> when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside >> the passband of my 400 Hz filter. > > > I decided to try the same on 20m since 40m is relatively dead here. Using a > 70 kHz SPAN and 400 Hz filter, after QSY I had NO signals falling outside my > passband. I don't know what we're doing differently but I am simply > aligning MKR A (in the Spectrum display only) which is 2 pixels wide with > the signals in the Waterfall display directly below. I adjust REF LVL such > that the waterfall background is relatively dark and weak signals are 1 > pixel wide. I don't find it hard to align these but would actually prefer > if MKR was 1 pixel wide instead of 2 (and I've told Alan that). > > I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode >> with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for >> extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar >> functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion. >> > > I don't care for PowerSDR but I do use CW Skimmer's waterfall. The > advantage is that clicking on a decoder dot in Skimmer takes you to the > *exact* zero-beat frequency. The downside is that Skimmer's "Softrock on > IF" mode (which is what must be used on the K3) is limited to 24 kHz spans > (although Page Up and Down allows you to jump these spans up or down the > band quickly). IMHO the really unique advantage of Skimmer is that you can > jump from one decoder dot to the next by simply using Up or Down arrows on > the keyboard. This makes for extremely fast S&Ping up or down the band in > contests. CT1BOH first described this below: > > http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html > > This is perfectly legal for unassisted categories since Skimmer's Blind Mode > is not displaying decoded calls. > > If the P3 can be made to do something similar this would overcome this > weakness relative to Skimmer. The P3 has many other advantages such as 200 > kHz span, better flexibility in controlling both VFO A and VFO B, etc. > > In the meantime, one workaround is to leave the K3 in CWT mode, click on the > P3 signal and then tap SPOT for auto-tuning. However this still takes two > keystrokes and requires that you at least get the signal inside your filter > passband. I believe the P3 may eventually allow automatically sending the > SPOT command to the K3 with its QSY command, but there are probably better > ways to do this. > > I know Alan is very aware of this need and we'll just have to wait to see > what he comes up with. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413246.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Larry - K2GN wrote: > > Solution: Use the MKR A to get to the high side of the freq, > This is key and I had forgotten because it had become second nature. Since the MKR trace is 2 pixels wide, it cannot be placed exactly on a 1 pixel wide signal. Apparently Alan chose to set it this way which is why I want him to go to 1 pixel width (like the white Spectrum Center Line). Meanwhile what Larry says is true...at least for UCW which is what I use. Graphically, it should look like this: MM S Not this: MM S What I want is this: M (i.e. 1 pixel) S 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5413065p5413328.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Good advice, I'll try enabling Peak and see if I can line the marker up better that way. Bob NW8L On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:04 AM, The Smiths wrote: > Actually, after you posted that on the reflector last night I went back to > the P3 and I put my span at 50KHz and I did a BUNCH of QSY to and from the > zero beat of a signal. I was generally able to park myself within about > 10Hz of the Center. A quick push of the SPOT button brought me right to > Zero Beat with the signal. I did this with both weak signals and with loud > ones (dark red lines). > Of course this is ONLY because I painstakingly took the time to find and > properly set my Center mark before doing the final Ref Cal Alighment. > As you have already figured out, it's VERY important to let the P3 warm up > sufficiently due to it's excessive drifting before doing the REF-Cal > alignment. After that you should be able to get yourself somewhat close. > > I think that the key to getting it so accurate, Bob, is to use your Peak > meter.. Once a signal is present on the Audio display, and you can see below > that it's a cw signal, if you line the A marker up with the displayed Peak > of the signal that's stuck there, you can pretty much nail it. If you're > trying to QSY to a signal by lining it up with only the Waterfall line as it > comes down, or even worse, by using the Audio scope WITHOUT the peak on, > you'll never get close.. That becomes a guessing game. > I'm still VERY much in favor of your idea to have a Scrub feature once you > QSY, thereby using the Select knob as a way to drag the VFO around until you > have Zero beat the signal both on the rig, and on the display. Then exit the > Scub mode returning the A/B marker. > > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to > be within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This would > allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero Beat, and > not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow to the CW > guys. > > > >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:33:27 -0600 >> From: bob.cunni...@gmail.com >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY >> >> Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span? >> That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel >> window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 = >> 0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than >> I am! >> >> The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when >> using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could >> see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might, >> when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside >> the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a >> 150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter >> passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span >> would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as >> well as CW. >> >> I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode >> with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for >> extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar >> functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion. >> >> "Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too. >> >> 73, >> >> Bob NW8L >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Bob Cunnings [via Elecraft] < ml-node+5413008-376189874-210...@n2.nabble.com > wrote: > > The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when > using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could > see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might, > when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside > the passband of my 400 Hz filter. I decided to try the same on 20m since 40m is relatively dead here. Using a 70 kHz SPAN and 400 Hz filter, after QSY I had NO signals falling outside my passband. I don't know what we're doing differently but I am simply aligning MKR A (in the Spectrum display only) which is 2 pixels wide with the signals in the Waterfall display directly below. I adjust REF LVL such that the waterfall background is relatively dark and weak signals are 1 pixel wide. I don't find it hard to align these but would actually prefer if MKR was 1 pixel wide instead of 2 (and I've told Alan that). I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode > with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for > extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar > functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion. > I don't care for PowerSDR but I do use CW Skimmer's waterfall. The advantage is that clicking on a decoder dot in Skimmer takes you to the *exact* zero-beat frequency. The downside is that Skimmer's "Softrock on IF" mode (which is what must be used on the K3) is limited to 24 kHz spans (although Page Up and Down allows you to jump these spans up or down the band quickly). IMHO the really unique advantage of Skimmer is that you can jump from one decoder dot to the next by simply using Up or Down arrows on the keyboard. This makes for extremely fast S&Ping up or down the band in contests. CT1BOH first described this below: http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html This is perfectly legal for unassisted categories since Skimmer's Blind Mode is not displaying decoded calls. If the P3 can be made to do something similar this would overcome this weakness relative to Skimmer. The P3 has many other advantages such as 200 kHz span, better flexibility in controlling both VFO A and VFO B, etc. In the meantime, one workaround is to leave the K3 in CWT mode, click on the P3 signal and then tap SPOT for auto-tuning. However this still takes two keystrokes and requires that you at least get the signal inside your filter passband. I believe the P3 may eventually allow automatically sending the SPOT command to the K3 with its QSY command, but there are probably better ways to do this. I know Alan is very aware of this need and we'll just have to wait to see what he comes up with. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413246.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Actually, after you posted that on the reflector last night I went back to the P3 and I put my span at 50KHz and I did a BUNCH of QSY to and from the zero beat of a signal. I was generally able to park myself within about 10Hz of the Center. A quick push of the SPOT button brought me right to Zero Beat with the signal. I did this with both weak signals and with loud ones (dark red lines). Of course this is ONLY because I painstakingly took the time to find and properly set my Center mark before doing the final Ref Cal Alighment. As you have already figured out, it's VERY important to let the P3 warm up sufficiently due to it's excessive drifting before doing the REF-Cal alignment. After that you should be able to get yourself somewhat close. I think that the key to getting it so accurate, Bob, is to use your Peak meter.. Once a signal is present on the Audio display, and you can see below that it's a cw signal, if you line the A marker up with the displayed Peak of the signal that's stuck there, you can pretty much nail it. If you're trying to QSY to a signal by lining it up with only the Waterfall line as it comes down, or even worse, by using the Audio scope WITHOUT the peak on, you'll never get close.. That becomes a guessing game. I'm still VERY much in favor of your idea to have a Scrub feature once you QSY, thereby using the Select knob as a way to drag the VFO around until you have Zero beat the signal both on the rig, and on the display. Then exit the Scub mode returning the A/B marker. Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow to the CW guys. > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:33:27 -0600 > From: bob.cunni...@gmail.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > > Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span? > That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel > window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 = > 0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than > I am! > > The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when > using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could > see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might, > when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside > the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a > 150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter > passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span > would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as > well as CW. > > I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode > with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for > extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar > functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion. > > "Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too. > > 73, > > Bob NW8L > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span? That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 = 0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than I am! The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might, when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a 150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as well as CW. I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion. "Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too. 73, Bob NW8L On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > Bob Cunnings wrote: >> >> Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic. >> > > Another thing I do is to align the Spectrum MKR with the Waterfall (no MKR). > The Center Line in the Spectrum Display interferes with the signal and MKR > so it's easier to align if you use Split Display mode with Spectrum MKR only > and align to the signal in the Waterfall immediately below. > > As I said before I also hope for some sort of Snap Tune, but I can do much > better than +/- 100-200 Hz with the current setup. > > 73, Bill > > P.S. Depending on which firmware rev you have there may not be a Waterfall > MKR available. There is in beta 00.30 but I don't use it for the above > reason. > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412535.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Bob Cunnings wrote: > > Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic. > Another thing I do is to align the Spectrum MKR with the Waterfall (no MKR). The Center Line in the Spectrum Display interferes with the signal and MKR so it's easier to align if you use Split Display mode with Spectrum MKR only and align to the signal in the Waterfall immediately below. As I said before I also hope for some sort of Snap Tune, but I can do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz with the current setup. 73, Bill P.S. Depending on which firmware rev you have there may not be a Waterfall MKR available. There is in beta 00.30 but I don't use it for the above reason. -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412535.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic. It's a matter of how accurately I can place the marker in the wider spans, especially when I need to move quickly. My near vision isn't so great, and the pixels on the display are tiny. At, say, a span of 50 kHz each pixel on the display is a 100 Hz bin (approx). If I'm off by a couple of pixels when I position the marker and tap SELECT, I'm at the very edge of my 400 Hz CW filter. Point and click tuning doesn't have to be such an exacting exercise if you could just place the marker approximately and then rapidly and accurately fine tune the signal by ear, all with the SELECT knob. I don't know what span you normally use, but I like using a span of at least 50 kHz so I can observe activity on the entire CW sub-band, and this would make hopping from signal to signal easier. Perhaps the implementation of external monitor support will help by expanding the display, but that's off in the future. Bob NW8L On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > Bob Cunnings wrote: >> >> >> With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to >> the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at >> least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. >> > > While I agree with the need for a better zero-beat QSY function (I'm spoiled > by Skimmer's decoder dots), you should be able to come much closer than +/- > 100-200 Hz. Have you checked both your K3's Ref Cal (do that first) and the > P3's Ref Cal procedure? Using a 100 Hz BW (i.e. +/- 50 Hz) in the K3, I can > consistently hear QSY signals inside the 100 Hz passband. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412345.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to > the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at > least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. A "snap to signal" menu function (with AFC centering) like that provided by some software programs would be useful. Sounds like Elecraft already has taken the idea into consideration as a future P3 feature. Paul, W9AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Bob Cunnings wrote: > > > With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to > the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at > least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. > While I agree with the need for a better zero-beat QSY function (I'm spoiled by Skimmer's decoder dots), you should be able to come much closer than +/- 100-200 Hz. Have you checked both your K3's Ref Cal (do that first) and the P3's Ref Cal procedure? Using a 100 Hz BW (i.e. +/- 50 Hz) in the K3, I can consistently hear QSY signals inside the 100 Hz passband. 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412345.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
I agree with your idea Bob, I think that perhaps the marker should stay on though. Perhaps it should either turn green, or blink or give some indication that you are still in the QSY mode. Once you push the QSY button again it would lock in your "scrubbed to" location and the Marker could come back solid, or blue again. As for the movement in that second QSY mode, I would have it so that as you turn the QSY select knob the freq is just dragged along at real time, just as if you were turning the VFO knob. The rate could be set by how you have your knob Fine/course tuning rate set. That would give you something similar to what you have on your LP Pan. I would love this feature as I've found myself using that QSY knob more than the VFO now... > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:24:59 -0600 > From: bob.cunni...@gmail.com > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY > > P3 s/n 74 arrived today, went together nicely and works great. I'm > still getting used to it, but as a long-time LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF user, > I was struck by one thing right away. > > With PowerSDR-IF point and click tuning with the mouse is enhanced by > the fact that after pointing and clicking to change the K3 frequency, > one may immediately "fine tune" the signal with the mouse scroll > wheel. Especially for CW signals, this becomes second nature, a quick, > fluid series of actions - point, click, fine tune up or down to > zero-beat the signal (I do it by ear), using only one hand. This is > good because I can't always point with perfect accuracy, so am often > some tens or hundreds of Hz away from the desired signal. I set the > scroll wheel fine tuning rate to either 10 or 50 Hz per step. > > With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to > the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at > least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. So, in order to zero-beat I > must move a hand to the K3 and tune it in or press SPOT. I'd rather > finish the job using the hand already on the P3 SELECT knob, it's much > easier that way when it's done repeatedly (search and pounce etc). I > like panadaptor spans of 30 to 40 kHz, but even with narrower spans I > just can't consistently get close enough to zero-beat with a CW signal > on the P3 using the marker. > > What I'd like to propose is a P3 "fine tune" QSY mode (optional, > controlled by menu setting), where the act of QSYing by tapping the > SELECT knob not only changes the K3 frequency, but also: > > 1. Clears the marker. > 2. Puts the P3 into a mode where turning the select knob one way or > the other "fine tunes" the K3 at some rate like 200 Hz per revolution > or so (a "fine" rate, maybe adjustable). > 3. Then, after any required fine tuning is complete, one more tap of > the select knob disables fine tuning, and it's business as usual. > > The marker is cleared in step 1 because otherwise turning the SELECT > knob should continue to move the marker. > > So the flow goes like this, with the proposed "Fine Tune" QSY mode > enabled in menu: > > 1. Tap MKR A to enable marker. > 2. Turn SELECT knob to move marker onto desired signal. > 3. Tap SELECT knob to QSY. The marker is cleared. Fine tuning of K3 is > enabled. > 4. Turn SELECT knob to fine tune (to zero-beat in the CW case, by ear > or using CWT indicator) the desired signal. > 5. Tap SELECT knob once more to disable fine tuning, returning to normal > state. > > MKR B would get the same treatment. This would be perfectly general, > working for all modes, and less tiring when QSYing repeatedly using > the marker. > > > Bob NW8L > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
