RE: [Fwd: Re: Calibration of test equipment]
From: Jon Griver Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 2:03 AM It is my understanding that it is purely the responsibility of the owner of the measuring instrument to decide on the calibration period. Hi, Jon. ISO 17025, Subclause 5.10.4.4, agrees with you. However, in dealing with various agencies and auditors, the consensus seems to be that the calibration period should not be longer than that recommended by the equipment manufacturer, but the periods may be shorter. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Ron - At a previous employer, we operated under CSA Category Certification Program. One of the basic requirements at the time was compliance with ISO Guide 25 (later becoming 17025). The point is that any company using the CCP that was not already compliant with ISO 17025 should have been ineligible or dropped from the program. Or do you mean CSA is moving toward exclusively using external registration organizations, rather than CSA engineers auditing for themselves? Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE ptar...@ieee.org From: Ronald R. Wellman Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 7:14 AM There have been many responses to this question regarding MRAs. However, I don't know if anyone is aware that the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) is in the process to eventually have their category certification clients at least ISO 17025 compliant. Also, as far as calibration interval, if you are a calibration lab, you have the option to provide your Customers different calibration plans. Therefore, you can decide on anything that meets your Customer needs. Best regards, Ron Wellman _ Scanned by Sanmina-SCI eShield ___ _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Hi Mike The calibration interval really depends on the standards in your scope of accreditation as much or more than any agreement between the manufacturer and test lab. For example, if you are testing to ANSI C63.4 (i.e. any FCC part 15 device) the section 4.4.1 has a maximum interval allowance of up to 2 years or shorter. Other standards may require other intervals. If there is no specified interval in the standard being used then the manufacturer and lab can agree on a reasonable interval. Dennis Ward Evaluation Engineer American TCB Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry www.atcb.com 703-847-4700 fax 703-847-6888 direct - 703-880-4841 cell - 209-769-8316 NOTICE: This E-Mail message and any attachment may contain privileged or company proprietary information. If you received this message in error, please return to the sender. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com Sent: 03/20/2006 1:07 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment Mike, I have searched for this answer before. I have not found anything anywhere that requires a specific time period between calibration. Just manufacturers recommendations or whatever is agreed between you and your calibration lab. The dangers of extending it beyond a year has been documented previously. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = Mike Hopkins michael.hopkins@ thermo.comTo Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Tricia Rakiey tricia.rak...@thermo.com 03/16/2006 03:31 Subject PMCalibration of test equipment It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question... I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear.. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com www.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org
RE: Calibration of test equipment
All, While I do not know of any specific requirement, I know that some companies operate on the basis of having the equipment checked to confirm that it is in cal before any adjustments are made. If the equipment happens to be out-of-cal, then we know which functions and by how much it is in error. This information is required to assess whether there is a need to go back through the measurements it was used for, to decide if repeats, recalls etc are required. Adjustment / repair is carried out and then the equipment is calibrated. If the equipment is in-cal on the first pass, then, depending on the equipment and the need for routine adjustments the device is re-cal'ed or not. If a particular piece of equipment has a history of being out-of-cal at the time it is sent for calibration, then the calibration period is reduced. Similarly, if a particular piece of equipment is always spot-on calibration, then the calibration period is increased. Generally, the aim is to keep the equipment in cal but needing a slight adjustment to centre it. Makers recommendations are significant and are usually followed until we have a history to go by in order to extend or reduce the period. The calibration process described is more expensive than the usual type of process. However, if the equipment was significantly out of cal, then the task it had been used of may have erroneous results. If this could lead to significant costs / damages etc., it could be well worth the extra on the calibration bill. I hope I have described this adequately well. Regards Tim From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com Sent: 20 March 2006 09:07 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment *** WARNING *** This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an external partner or the Global Internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Mike, I have searched for this answer before. I have not found anything anywhere that requires a specific time period between calibration. Just manufacturers recommendations or whatever is agreed between you and your calibration lab. The dangers of extending it beyond a year has been documented previously. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = Mike Hopkins michael.hopkins@ thermo.comTo Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Tricia Rakiey tricia.rak...@thermo.com 03/16/2006 03:31 Subject PMCalibration of test equipment It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question….. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear…. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com www.thermo.com/esd
[Fwd: Re: Calibration of test equipment]
Mike, It is my understanding that it is purely the responsibility of the owner of the measuring instrument to decide on the calibration period. The calibration laboratory has a financial interest in 'encouraging' its customers to calibrate frequently, but only the customer knows the use to which the instrument is put, and the calibration history. For instance, it may be quite reasonable for gauge blocks, used infrequently to internally calibrate vernier calipers, to be sent out to an external lab for calibration once every five years. On the other hand, the appropriate calibration interval for a vernier caliper in constant use on the production line may be one month or less, especially if the result of out-of-calibration measurements could be a product recall. Ultimately the manufacturer must take responsibility. If you think about it, I don't think that a calibration laboratory's insurers would want them to take responsibility for specifying calibration periods which may be inappropriate for the actual use to which the measuring device is put. Jon Griver http://www.601help.com The Medical Device Designers' Guide to IEC 60601-1 Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment From:rehel...@mmm.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date:Mon, March 20, 2006 4:06 am To: emc-p...@ieee.org Mike, I have searched for this answer before. I have not found anything anywhere that requires a specific time period between calibration. Just manufacturers recommendations or whatever is agreed between you and your calibration lab. The dangers of extending it beyond a year has been documented previously. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question….. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear…. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com www.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Calibration of test equipment
Mike, I have searched for this answer before. I have not found anything anywhere that requires a specific time period between calibration. Just manufacturers recommendations or whatever is agreed between you and your calibration lab. The dangers of extending it beyond a year has been documented previously. Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = Mike Hopkins michael.hopkins@ thermo.comTo Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Tricia Rakiey tricia.rak...@thermo.com 03/16/2006 03:31 Subject PMCalibration of test equipment It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question….. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear…. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com www.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
I agree with John's concern and suggest that a decision to retest should be made only after determining how far the equipment was out of cal and if that error could have changed the results. == Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:43 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment In message e1ba0362b28ed211a1e80008c71ea30603387...@z-160-100-30-252.est.ibm.com, dated Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@bocedwards.com writes if, when it NEXT goes for calibration whether it was found to be outside the manufacturers specification or not. If it is found to be outside the manufacturers specification then any compliance work performed with that piece of equipment since the LAST calibration will be repeated. Is this applied 'with mind engaged'? If a piece of equipment is found to be 1 dB out of calibration, do you have to re-test everything, even if its results were, say, 10 dB or more under the limit? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immensely. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
There have been many responses to this question regarding MRAs. However, I don't know if anyone is aware that the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) is in the process to eventually have their category certification clients at least ISO 17025 compliant. Also, as far as calibration interval, if you are a calibration lab, you have the option to provide your Customers different calibration plans. Therefore, you can decide on anything that meets your Customer needs. Finally, if you are test lab under one of the various IECEE test lab schemes (RMT, SMT, etc.) you are already using ISO 17025 as part of your quality system. Unless you have an internal calibration lab that is ISO 17025 accredited, you will most likely be using an external lab that is. If not, I would like to know how you are able to do this and comply with ISO 17025 under the IECEE test lab schemes. Best regards, Ron Wellman From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Mike Hopkins Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:32 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Tricia Rakiey Subject: Calibration of test equipment It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question….. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear…. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com file://www.thermo.com/esd www.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Ian, The points you make are very valid, providing they are applied intelligently as John Woodgate has already suggested. However, if your laboratory meets all the requirements of ISO17025, it would be but a small step to gain accreditation, which would make your reports acceptable to product certification bodies and thus reduce your external costs. A couple of pedantic points: 1. The quality management system standard is ISO 9001:2000, not ISO 9001:2002. 2. Your company is certified to ISO 9001:2000, not accredited. It is BSI who are accredited as a certification body. This is a common mistake, but if we professionals don't get it right, then what chance have we of the rest of the world getting it right. Best regards Neil R. Barker CEng MIEE FSEE MIEEE Manager Compliance Engineering e2v technologies (uk) ltd 106 Waterhouse Lane Chelmsford Essex CM1 2QU UK Tel: (+44) 1245 453616 Fax: (+44) 1245 453410 Mob: (+44) 7801 723735 From: Gordon,Ian [mailto:ian.gor...@bocedwards.com] Sent: 17 March 2006 09:12 To: 'Mike Hopkins'; emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Tricia Rakiey Subject: RE: Calibration of test equipment Mike et al Our EMC lab is audited annually by TUV to ISO 17025 and the company as a whole is audited annually by BSI and accredited to ISO 9001:2002. As we only do in-house testing the cost/benefit of full UKAS accreditation for the EMC lab isn't worthwhile. The concerns regarding calibration are: 1 That we have a quality system in place which ensures equipment is calibrated using traceable standards. 2 That we know when any piece of equipment was LAST calibrated and if, when it NEXT goes for calibration whether it was found to be outside the manufacturers specification or not. If it is found to be outside the manufacturers specification then any compliance work performed with that piece of equipment since the LAST calibration will be repeated. Thus the cal due date is arbitrary. It is essential however that you perform checks to ensure the equipment is still functioning at regular intervals - e.g. on a regular basis I measure the voltage generated by our transient generator and use a reference source to ensure our receiver + cables + antenna + room are working. Trend analysis is also performed. Ian Gordon - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Calibration of test equipment
In message e1ba0362b28ed211a1e80008c71ea30603387...@z-160-100-30-252.est.ibm.com, dated Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@bocedwards.com writes if, when it NEXT goes for calibration whether it was found to be outside the manufacturers specification or not. If it is found to be outside the manufacturers specification then any compliance work performed with that piece of equipment since the LAST calibration will be repeated. Is this applied 'with mind engaged'? If a piece of equipment is found to be 1 dB out of calibration, do you have to re-test everything, even if its results were, say, 10 dB or more under the limit? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immensely. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Mike et al Our EMC lab is audited annually by TUV to ISO 17025 and the company as a whole is audited annually by BSI and accredited to ISO 9001:2002. As we only do in-house testing the cost/benefit of full UKAS accreditation for the EMC lab isn't worthwhile. The concerns regarding calibration are: 1 That we have a quality system in place which ensures equipment is calibrated using traceable standards. 2 That we know when any piece of equipment was LAST calibrated and if, when it NEXT goes for calibration whether it was found to be outside the manufacturers specification or not. If it is found to be outside the manufacturers specification then any compliance work performed with that piece of equipment since the LAST calibration will be repeated. Thus the cal due date is arbitrary. It is essential however that you perform checks to ensure the equipment is still functioning at regular intervals - e.g. on a regular basis I measure the voltage generated by our transient generator and use a reference source to ensure our receiver + cables + antenna + room are working. Trend analysis is also performed. Ian Gordon *** The information contained in this email and any attachments may be confidential and is provided solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail, its attachments or any information contained therein is unauthorised and prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachments. No responsibility is accepted for any virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or attachments, whether or not it has been checked by anti-virus software. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Hi Mike, the EN's dont usually mention much about calibration. I don't recall now any EMC standards saying that, but e.g. EN 60950-1 says how to calibrate the touch current measuring device. With regards to accreditation, the lab can assign the calibration interval as they wish but as it needs to be justified it would be very unusual to ignore manufacturer's recommended calibration interval. If this answers your question... Regards, Ari _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Mike Hopkins Sent: 16. maaliskuuta 2006 23:32 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Tricia Rakiey Subject: Calibration of test equipment It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in question….. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clear…. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com file://www.thermo.com/esd www.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Calibration of test equipment
I think you're misunderstanding the function of the MRA's. MRA's allow non-EU states to designate testing and accreditation bodies on their own territory as Notified Bodies. Normally, in the absence of an MRA, a Notified Body has to be located on EU soil since EU Member States can only designate bodies within their own territory. To become designated under the MRA, testing and accreditation bodies will need to be accredited by the non-EU country's national accreditation service, and as such will need to comply with the national rules for accreditation, which will in practice include a requirement for test equipment to be calibrated at appropriate intervals. MRA's do not have a great deal of relevance to most manufacturers selling goods into the EU since unless they are dealing with a type of product which requires notified body involvement or have customers who demand third party certification as a condition of sale, they can please themselves how they demonstrate compliance with the CE marking directives. Regards Nick. At 4:31 pm -0500 16/3/06, Mike Hopkins wrote: It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). As a manfacturer, we recommend our products be calibrated yearly. ISO 17025 includes clause 5.10.4.4, which states: The calibration certificate (or calibration lable) shall not contain any recommendation on the calibration interval except where this has been agreed with the customer. This requirement may be superseded by legal regulations. ISO 17025 is, of course, the basis of accreditation to NVLAP or A2LA and others... My question to the group is: Is there some requirement under the MRA's or European Norms that states equipment must be calibrated periodically, and is periodically defined?? It seems to me allowing the customer to decide on when calibration is due (per ISO) can lead to no requirement for calibrations at all, which in turn, puts the whole accreditation issue in questionŠ.. I find this hard to believe, but I haven't identified a paragraph makes it clearŠ. Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Manager, Customer Technical Center Process Instruments Division Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com file://www.thermo.com/esdwww.thermo.com/esd - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Calibration of test equipment
Mike, I'm not sure your right that CE marked products require Accredited calibrations. It is usual that ASSESSMENT bodies do. There is a difference. Assessment bodies of course want to further their own grip on the requirements...MHO... Mike Hopkins wrote on 3/16/2006, 3:31 PM: It's my understanding that the MRA's require that test instruments used for compliance to European Norms be calibrated by an accredited lab --- in the US, NVLAP, A2LA, and (another?). A -- Cheers, Derek Walton L F Research Poplar Grove, IL 61065, USA - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Hi guys, Sorry for the late response, been pretty busy lately. I think we fool ourselves a little with this calibration stuff. I agree with Brian's statement that much of this boils down to going through the motions to satisfy a process, whether it's ISO, A2LA, NVLAP ... I'm not against calibration or the process, I just think that calibration worship can be taken to an extreme. I can understand that everyone is scared of equipment going out of cal after it has been put back into rough and tumble service. But, I wonder if anybody thinks about the fact that the roughest tumbling that the equipment will see all year probably occurs while the equipment is being shipped back to you after calibration. (Handheld equipment is probably an exception to this statement) Also, it probably undergoes more thermal stress in a shipping van or aircraft cargo hold than it does all year in a climate controlled lab. The equipment also undergoes more of other kinds of abuse than normal during the calibration itself. Many times fasteners are un-fastened, connectors are un-connected, socketed chips are un-socketed :-) Modern solid state electronics, in some instances, can run a lifetime if used within their specifications in a nice climate controlled lab as long as they aren't dropped or shaken or tampered with. Once you ship them away, have them opened up, have them shipped back ... No calibration in the world will save us from Murphy's law and the Samsonite Guerilla (if you can remember who that is, you're my 70's trivia lifeline for who wants to be a millionaire!) I have a small in-house lab with just a few pieces of equipment. As such, my equipment has undergone a total of 15 cal events. (approx 5 pieces of equipment times 3 years). Out of 15 cal events, I have had equipment come back in worse condition twice (one time, my EFT generator came back non-operational). Calibration is necessary but it isn't the be all and end all. It doesn't preclude or replace common sense. I don't see anything wrong with guys at test labs taking a freshly calibrated instrument and checking the other equipment in the lab against it or using it to calibrate other equipment. If they apply common sense, the act of checking the calibrated instrument against a group of unknowns helps find whether the uncalibrated (or not-so-recently calibrated) instruments are off and also checks to see if the calibrated instrument has indeed been calibrated correctly. It also checks the calibrated instrument to see if it came back fully functional. The idea of sending everything out for cal at once and then checking instruments against each other when it comes back would be nice, but I don't think a lab could afford to be out of business for a couple of weeks waiting for cal. No calibration at all is a bad idea, but trusting calibration without a sanity check can be just as bad. Combining well placed and timed calibrations with sanity checks is, in my humble opinion, the most effective solution. Catch ya's later. Chris Maxwell Design Engineer NetTest 6 Rhoads Drive, Building 4 Utica,NY 13502 email: chris.maxw...@gnnettest.com phone: 315-266-5128 fax: 315-797-8024 -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [SMTP:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:20 PM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: RE: Calibration of test equipment As soon as a reference device goes out into the general lab population, it's subject to physical and electrical abuse. It may take you quite a while to notice that some device has just one attenuator range that's damaged (but not completely blown, just shifted a bit). As far as I'm concerned, once a device hits the general lab population, it's no more reliable than anything else out there. (Although I may put a bit more faith in the most recently calibrated item, simply since it's likely to have had the least exposure to trouble.) Regards, Ed Another P.O.V. : Anecdotal experience: at the last three companies I've worked, the biggest single source of test equipment/instrumentation failure has been directly from the Calibration Process. When a fully functional instrument is submitted for calibration, and a device is returned that has no (or severly decreased functionality), it valid to assume that the calibration process does not always insure measurement integrity, nor add value to the development lab receiving the calibration services. It serves The Process (ISO 9k-speak). Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson
RE: Calibration of test equipment
As soon as a reference device goes out into the general lab population, it's subject to physical and electrical abuse. It may take you quite a while to notice that some device has just one attenuator range that's damaged (but not completely blown, just shifted a bit). As far as I'm concerned, once a device hits the general lab population, it's no more reliable than anything else out there. (Although I may put a bit more faith in the most recently calibrated item, simply since it's likely to have had the least exposure to trouble.) Regards, Ed Another P.O.V. : Anecdotal experience: at the last three companies I've worked, the biggest single source of test equipment/instrumentation failure has been directly from the Calibration Process. When a fully functional instrument is submitted for calibration, and a device is returned that has no (or severly decreased functionality), it valid to assume that the calibration process does not always insure measurement integrity, nor add value to the development lab receiving the calibration services. It serves The Process (ISO 9k-speak). Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Calibration of test equipment
-Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 1:52 PM To: Jon D. Curtis Cc: Flinders, Randall; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; c...@prodigy.net; brian.harl...@vgscientific.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment 3a9aa4c8.3df94...@curtis-straus.com, Jon D. Curtis jdc@curtis- straus.com wrote: I personally think this interpretation is overly severe, but we comply with it because we want our test reports to be accepted by authorities who think this process is reasonable. You are effectively succumbing to technological blackmail, and making resistance to such nonsense that much more difficult for others. I suppose the idea is that the calibrated equipment might catch an 'uncalibrating' infection from other equipment. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839 Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Foxhunters suffer from tallyhosis. PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me. --- John: Actually, the infection model isn't all that strange. I have had the unfortunate experience of having damaged an RF signal generator by connecting it into a power splitting network while also applying RF power to another port of that network. It served as a good reminder that you have to always watch were the power really flows, as well as where it's supposed to flow. As soon as a reference device goes out into the general lab population, it's subject to physical and electrical abuse. It may take you quite a while to notice that some device has just one attenuator range that's damaged (but not completely blown, just shifted a bit). As far as I'm concerned, once a device hits the general lab population, it's no more reliable than anything else out there. (Although I may put a bit more faith in the most recently calibrated item, simply since it's likely to have had the least exposure to trouble.) Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Regarding Jon's last comments about the use of un-calibrated equipment. CDS has an internal Metrology department which handles almost all of my periodic calibration (I send out my antennas, current probes LISN's). Every year, we have a long discussion about their need to minimize calibration costs. (I have to provide them with a budget to cover all of my predicted calibration costs.) One thing I have done to minimize costs is to put all of my power supplies, amplifiers, pulse generators and function generators on a No Periodic Calibration; User Verified status. My rationale is that I never trusted these devices to actually create what you set them for, so I always use a calibrated DMM or oscilloscope to verify and monitor any settings. (All of this NPC equipment carries a bright label warning of its status.) Of course, I still keep all oscilloscopes, meters, spectrum analyzers, measurement pre-amps, attenuators and probes on normal periodic calibration. I also keep any signal sweepers, signal generators and AF/RF synthesizers also on calibration, since I like to be able to use them stand-alone for some testing. Also, having calibrated RF signal sources allows me to informally cross-check my meters and analyzers. Using this system, I have moved from 100% calibrated equipment to only about 30% calibrated equipment. Considering that I have about 300 capital equipment items, this has resulted in a pretty decent cost reduction in the past few years. Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis -Original Message- From: Jon D. Curtis [mailto:j...@curtis-straus.com] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:48 AM To: Flinders, Randall Cc: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; c...@prodigy.net; brian.harl...@vgscientific.com; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration of test equipment As I understand it the interpretation to have tracibility to your national authority through equipment used only for calibration originated with NAMAS. Some other accreditors have picked it up since then. The requirement need not be that onerous. You can calibrate your own equipment traceably to your national authority using equipment that you send out for calibration. Where the instrument is cheap (multimeter) we buy an extra and use it only for calibration. Where it is expensive (oscope, receiver), we use it for calibration only directly after it returns from outside calibration (or inside tracible cal) and after we have calibrated our secondary equipment with it we put it into regular service for the year. If you manage your yearly calibration cycle well this shouldn't crimp your style too much. The key is not to have equipment in your calibration chain back to the national authority that has been used for non-calibration purposes between the time of its calibration and that of the secondary calibration. The idea is to have high confidence that the tracibilty chain is intact. If a piece of equipment in the chain has been used daily in regular rough and tumble testing it is seen as having a much higher probability of operating outside of its tolerances. In my experience the outside cal houses are pretty tough on their gear too, so I am not sure that much is gained. I personally think this interpretation is overly severe, but we comply with it because we want our test reports to be accepted by authorities who think this process is reasonable. To directly answer your specific question about a signal generator used in immunity: If it is being used as an uncalibrated signal source in the measurement and you are using a power meter or receiver for tracibility then you can use that signal generator, even if it went off a cliff the day before. If you are relying on the calibrated output level that the signal generator says it is putting out, then you should not have used that instrument in non-calibration use since its last calibration. Jon. Flinders, Randall wrote: Does this mean that a signal generator that is used for Radiated Immunity testing should not be used to calibrate Pre-Amps and Cables? How about Antenna Calibration? Can you use the same receiver you use on the OATS to calibrate those? I know this is a common practice with Commercial Test Labs. Is there guidance as to what types of equipment can be used for both lab use and for the calibration of other equipment? michael.sundst...@nokia.com wrote: I think there is a special requirement to keep the calibration equipment separate from the EMC equipment. In other words the calibration equipment can only be used for the calibration process and not for testing EMC. Michael Sundstrom Product Test Technician EMC Nokia Mobile Phones, Dallas PCC * Email michael.sundst...@nokia.com % Desk (972) 374-1462
Re: Calibration of test equipment
3a9aa4c8.3df94...@curtis-straus.com, Jon D. Curtis jdc@curtis- straus.com wrote: I personally think this interpretation is overly severe, but we comply with it because we want our test reports to be accepted by authorities who think this process is reasonable. You are effectively succumbing to technological blackmail, and making resistance to such nonsense that much more difficult for others. I suppose the idea is that the calibrated equipment might catch an 'uncalibrating' infection from other equipment. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839 Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Foxhunters suffer from tallyhosis. PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Calibration of test equipment
One method I have seen used is to have a reference instrument calibrated and then immediately use that instrument to calibrate/verify other instruments of it's type in house. After that process, the reference is placed back into standard duty until the next cal cycle. This way, at the time of calibration, the reference had not been used for any purpose other than calibration. Regards, Brent DeWitt CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail communication may contain information that is proprietary, confidential and/or privileged from disclosure under applicable law. The information is intended to be for the use of the addressee only. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that use, copying, dissemination or continued possession of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have any reason to believe you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please delete all copies of this e-mail from computer memory or storage. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Calibration of test equipment
As I understand it the interpretation to have tracibility to your national authority through equipment used only for calibration originated with NAMAS. Some other accreditors have picked it up since then. The requirement need not be that onerous. You can calibrate your own equipment traceably to your national authority using equipment that you send out for calibration. Where the instrument is cheap (multimeter) we buy an extra and use it only for calibration. Where it is expensive (oscope, receiver), we use it for calibration only directly after it returns from outside calibration (or inside tracible cal) and after we have calibrated our secondary equipment with it we put it into regular service for the year. If you manage your yearly calibration cycle well this shouldn't crimp your style too much. The key is not to have equipment in your calibration chain back to the national authority that has been used for non-calibration purposes between the time of its calibration and that of the secondary calibration. The idea is to have high confidence that the tracibilty chain is intact. If a piece of equipment in the chain has been used daily in regular rough and tumble testing it is seen as having a much higher probability of operating outside of its tolerances. In my experience the outside cal houses are pretty tough on their gear too, so I am not sure that much is gained. I personally think this interpretation is overly severe, but we comply with it because we want our test reports to be accepted by authorities who think this process is reasonable. To directly answer your specific question about a signal generator used in immunity: If it is being used as an uncalibrated signal source in the measurement and you are using a power meter or receiver for tracibility then you can use that signal generator, even if it went off a cliff the day before. If you are relying on the calibrated output level that the signal generator says it is putting out, then you should not have used that instrument in non-calibration use since its last calibration. Jon. Flinders, Randall wrote: Does this mean that a signal generator that is used for Radiated Immunity testing should not be used to calibrate Pre-Amps and Cables? How about Antenna Calibration? Can you use the same receiver you use on the OATS to calibrate those? I know this is a common practice with Commercial Test Labs. Is there guidance as to what types of equipment can be used for both lab use and for the calibration of other equipment? michael.sundst...@nokia.com wrote: I think there is a special requirement to keep the calibration equipment separate from the EMC equipment. In other words the calibration equipment can only be used for the calibration process and not for testing EMC. Michael Sundstrom Product Test Technician EMC Nokia Mobile Phones, Dallas PCC * Email michael.sundst...@nokia.com % Desk (972) 374-1462 *Mobile (817) 917-5021 * Fax (972) 374-0901 amateur call: KB5UKT --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, -- Jon D. Curtis, P.E. Director of Engineering Curtis-Straus LLC One Stop Laboratory for NEBS, EMC, Product Safety, and Telecom Testing. 527 Great Road Littleton, MA 01460 USA Voice 978-486-8880 Fax 978-486-8828 email: jcur...@curtis-straus.com WWW.CURTIS-STRAUS.COM --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc
Re: Calibration of test equipment
Does this mean that a signal generator that is used for Radiated Immunity testing should not be used to calibrate Pre-Amps and Cables? How about Antenna Calibration? Can you use the same receiver you use on the OATS to calibrate those? I know this is a common practice with Commercial Test Labs. Is there guidance as to what types of equipment can be used for both lab use and for the calibration of other equipment? michael.sundst...@nokia.com wrote: I think there is a special requirement to keep the calibration equipment separate from the EMC equipment. In other words the calibration equipment can only be used for the calibration process and not for testing EMC. Michael Sundstrom Product Test Technician EMC Nokia Mobile Phones, Dallas PCC * Email michael.sundst...@nokia.com % Desk (972) 374-1462 *Mobile (817) 917-5021 * Fax (972) 374-0901 amateur call: KB5UKT --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Calibration of test equipment
Brian, my concern with your statement would be suggesting use of a NAMAS accredited lab Why not A2LA or other body. I know of a number of great cal labs with no accreditation Derek Walton --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Schleppers of the world, unite ! Vitaly -Original Message- From: Price, Ed [SMTP:ed.pr...@cubic.com] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:37 AM To: 'Brian Harlowe'; 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject:RE: Calibration of test equipment Brian: I calibrate my spectrum analyzer after every time I drop it. Ed -Original Message- From: Brian Harlowe [mailto:brian.harl...@vgscientific.com] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:54 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: Calibration of test equipment I seem to have hit a raw nerve by suggesting that emc test equipment should be NAMAS calibrated. But surely some cost for calibration should come into the equation. Surely no professional test engineer would use test equipment that had not been calibrated at least annually!!! Brian Harlowe Thermo V.G. Scientific Tel +44 (0)1342 327211 Fax +44 (0)1342 315074 Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Calibration of test equipment
I think there is a special requirement to keep the calibration equipment separate from the EMC equipment. In other words the calibration equipment can only be used for the calibration process and not for testing EMC. Michael Sundstrom Product Test Technician EMC Nokia Mobile Phones, Dallas PCC * Email michael.sundst...@nokia.com % Desk (972) 374-1462 *Mobile (817) 917-5021 * Fax (972) 374-0901 amateur call: KB5UKT --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Calibration of test equipment
Brian: I calibrate my spectrum analyzer after every time I drop it. Ed -Original Message- From: Brian Harlowe [mailto:brian.harl...@vgscientific.com] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:54 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: Calibration of test equipment I seem to have hit a raw nerve by suggesting that emc test equipment should be NAMAS calibrated. But surely some cost for calibration should come into the equation. Surely no professional test engineer would use test equipment that had not been calibrated at least annually!!! Brian Harlowe Thermo V.G. Scientific Tel +44 (0)1342 327211 Fax +44 (0)1342 315074 Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Calibration of test equipment
At the least, I would expect the test eqipment parameters/characteristics to be checked via other test equipment that is in current calibration traceable to NIST or NAMAS. This check would require a documented procedure. - Original Message - From: Brian Harlowe brian.harl...@vgscientific.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 3:53 AM Subject: Calibration of test equipment I seem to have hit a raw nerve by suggesting that emc test equipment should be NAMAS calibrated. But surely some cost for calibration should come into the equation. Surely no professional test engineer would use test equipment that had not been calibrated at least annually!!! Brian Harlowe Thermo V.G. Scientific Tel +44 (0)1342 327211 Fax +44 (0)1342 315074 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: Calibration of test equipment
f9d85b6af82bd4119ae800d0b769603b2c6...@kestrel.vgscientific.com, Brian Harlowe brian.harl...@vgscientific.com wrote: I seem to have hit a raw nerve by suggesting that emc test equipment should be NAMAS calibrated. But surely some cost for calibration should come into the equation. Surely no professional test engineer would use test equipment that had not been calibrated at least annually!!! The objection is to the 'expensive' word 'NAMAS'. Calibration, mainly by less costly means, is certainly necessary. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839 Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Foxhunters suffer from tallyhosis. PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
