RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-10 Thread Peter L. Tarver 

Doug -

This was not so uncommon a few years ago.  For instance, a
rack mount computer at one time could not be UL Listed and
were only allowed to be UL Recognized Components, based on
the uncertain use environment (elevated internal rack
temperatures).  At the same time, obtaining European
certification meant the full gamut of requirements applied.
I've heard tale that TUV-R refused to issue Bauart licenses
for them.

Circa 1992 or 3, UL decided this was too onerous on
manufacturers and proposed allowing rack mounted computers
to be Listed, provided they provide adequate instructions
for installation and maximum rack ambients.  Recognition is
still an option and at the manufacturer's discretion.

All sorts of other reasons can force a product towards
Recognition, rather than Listing, most of which, I'm
confident you can envision.  Something incomplete in the
evaluation or based on a construction feature.

Among them, hard wired and without a fully compliant NEC
compliant field wiring means of connection to the supply.
Even if intended for an RAL, not meeting Code requirements
can spell doom.  (You didn't mention the intended supply
wiring method.)

Do the CofAs not contain anything unusual?

Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
San Jose, CA
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com

> -Original Message-
> From: Doug McKean
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:44 AM
>
> In 20 years, I've never seen this before but
> that's not saying much.
>
> Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for
> a commercial
> ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style
> product but for
> that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?
>
> Mfr is a stateside company.
>
> Product to be used in restricted areas with
> trained personnel only.
> But, one that essentially anyone could buy.
>
> What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set
> of approvals?
> I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing.
>
> Maybe turning the question around for our
> overseas friends -
> why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get
> UL recognition for an ITE computer product when
> it's normal
> to get a listing for such a product?
>
> Regards, Doug (scratching head...)


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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-10 Thread Peter Merguerian 

Doug,

UL Recognitiion vs TUV GS (Listing) can be because of many factors. Some are
specified below:

1. UL interpertation of some requirements in the standard could have bee
different than TUV's interpretation.

2. The product met all of the EN60950 requirements but lacked some of the US
deviation requirements.

3. Inexperienced safety engineers.

4. My best guess is that UL Recognized the unit instead of Listing it
because something to do with the fire enclosure - check if bottom openings
meet the EN 60 950/UL60950  requirements. It may be that TUV GSsed the unit
based that the safety instructions specify the unit is to be installed
within a metal rack which has no openings on the bottom and UL was unable to
accept this type of construction.

Best Regards



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PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





-Original Message-
From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 



In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. 

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. 

Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - 
why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get 
UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal 
to get a listing for such a product? 

And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's 
some deviation within the testing as to cause the product 
to be GS accepted but not with a listing. 

Regards, Doug (scratching head...) 


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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Gary McInturff 
Okay, to stir up a little more confusion.
Eons ago, the GS mark could not be issued unless some very ugly ergonomics 
standards were met. ZH/618 or something, along with the safety requirements for 
an end use product.
But if you had an end use product that didn't meet the ergonomics 
requirements - maybe the color contrast between the enclosure and the product 
name was too great - but it met the safety standard of the time you could get a 
Bauart mark. That was around 1975 or so. 
Other than that, I believe that Bauart is component and GS is end product. 
I have some laser transceivers on my desk that carry the Bauart mark at the 
moment.
Keyboards are a nice little hole in the process. The enclosure material is 
based on whether or not it has to be a fire enclosure or not. That 
determination was based on the maximum current coming into the keyboard. There 
was a time when keyboards had the fuse and could be Listed, it didn't matter 
which computer you used because the keyboard had the current limiting device. 
Well, a fuse cost money and so does fire suppressants in plastics, and 
keyboards are being sold for $3.00 or so these days so cost reduction is a huge 
issue. Cost reduction left the fuse out and dropped the plastic enclosure to HB 
from V1 or V0. They computer guys were thinking about the keyboard changing 
weren't putting any limiting on the motherboard, that saved them a few beer 
tokens as well. So the keyboard is pretty much swinging in space as fare as a 
fire enclosure goes.  Theoretically, the keyboard should have to be recognized 
and as a condition of acceptability would say that it must be used on a limited 
power circuit or whatever. How does one control that in the replacement Radio 
Shack type markets? A listed keyboard would have all the protection necessary 
and could work with fuse and no fused computer outputs. Mice out to be the same 
situation.
I suspect the problem is known and a blind eye turned that direction.
Gary
 
 
 -Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:46 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 



In a message dated 10/9/02 3:22:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, john_t...@bose.com 
writes:




Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was
employed at TUV,   this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only
for finished ready to use products which do not require any special
installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for
incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to
make them  compliant with the standards. 




I agree - you're right, John.   I think my error lies in the fact that I have 
seen GS Marks on things that many certifiers would consider to be components.  
But the GS Mark itself is intended to be an end product mark.Sorry if I got 
anyone else caught up in my own confusion.  


Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread John Woodgate 

I read in !emc-pstc that John Shinn  wrote
(in <008b01c26fd7$4f20da00$af8c1...@hadco.comsanmina.com>) about
'Question regarding something slightly unusual ...' on Wed, 9 Oct 2002:
>David, You are right.  I have a mouse that has a UL recognized 
>mark, a GS mark, a CE mark, 
>a NOM, a VCCI, a Tic mark, and more.  And it still does not work 
>well. 

Threaten it with an approved Persian cat.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread John Shinn 
David, You are right.  I have a mouse that has a UL recognized mark, a GS
mark, a CE mark,
a NOM, a VCCI, a Tic mark, and more.  And it still does not work well.

John
  -Original Message-
  From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Clement
   Dave-LDC009
  Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:22 PM
  To: 'richwo...@tycoint.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...


  Well I have a mouse with a UL listing mark & a GS mark and a keyboard with
a Recognized component mark & a GS mark. So you are correct in that it does
not work well.

  About 10 years ago the UL office we dealt with would not list and product
that was rack mountable even though as an individual item it met all the
requirements. We would have UL recognition, CSA certifcation as product and
a GS mark. This has since changed.

  Dave Clement
  Motorola Inc.
  Test Lab Services
  Homologation Engineering
  20 Cabot Blvd.
  Mansfield, MA 02048

  P:508-851-8259
  F:508-851-8512
  C:508-725-9689
  mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com
  http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/

  -Original Message-
  From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
  Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...


  Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse
and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark
and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has
the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the
GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks
on the mouse.

  Richard Woods
  Sensormatic Electronics
  Tyco International

-Original Message-
From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM
To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
    Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...


TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the
Bauart mark for components.

Dave Clement
Motorola Inc.
Test Lab Services
Homologation Engineering
20 Cabot Blvd.
Mansfield, MA 02048

P:508-851-8259
F:508-851-8512
C:508-725-9689
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/

-Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...


From Doug McKean:

>>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying
much.

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?

Mfr is a stateside company.

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only.
But, one that essentially anyone could buy.

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals?
<<<<<<<<<<<<

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the
device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore
they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished
product.  The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components
and finished products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS
mark.

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave.

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Tyra, John 

While a mouse cannot function by itself, as it  needs to be connected to
something, it is a complete product in the sense that it should comply with
the Safety and EMC standards and does not require any special safety related
install or usage instructions. It therefore is able to bear the GS
Mark...This is similar to a mains connected printer or monitor which cannot
function until connected to a driver device but may be compliant with the
LVD and EMC Directives and specified standards and therefore is eligible for
a GS MarkAgain I am going back
to my TUV days with this so things could have changed in the last two
years.I am new to the UL process but sounds like has a
different slant when it comes to what is considered a finished product and
what is a component.
 
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and
keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and
the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the
Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS
requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on
the mouse.
 
Richard Woods 
Sensormatic Electronics 
Tyco International 

-Original Message-
From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM
To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the
Bauart mark for components. 
 
Dave Clement 
Motorola Inc. 
Test Lab Services 
Homologation Engineering 
20 Cabot Blvd. 
Mansfield, MA 02048 

P:508-851-8259 
F:508-851-8512 
C:508-725-9689 
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com>  
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/
<http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/>  

-Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


>From Doug McKean: 

>>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much.


Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
<<<<<<<<<<<< 

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the
device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore
they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished
product.  The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components
and finished products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS
mark.  

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com 


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Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread John Woodgate 

I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in <846BF526A205F8
4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A0467583F@flbocexu05>) about 'Question regarding
something slightly unusual ...' on Wed, 9 Oct 2002:
> But that does not explain the marks on the mouse.
> 
The mouse probably does not comply with the German requirements, either,
because it prefers cheese to bacon. (;-)
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread SOUNDSURFR 
In a message dated 10/9/02 3:22:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
john_t...@bose.com writes:


> Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was
> employed at TUV,   this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only
> for finished ready to use products which do not require any special
> installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for
> incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to
> make them  compliant with the standards. 


I agree - you're right, John.   I think my error lies in the fact that I have 
seen GS Marks on things that many certifiers would consider to be components. 
 But the GS Mark itself is intended to be an end product mark.Sorry if I 
got anyone else caught up in my own confusion.  


Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Clement Dave-LDC009 
Well I have a mouse with a UL listing mark & a GS mark and a keyboard with a 
Recognized component mark & a GS mark. So you are correct in that it does not 
work well.
 
About 10 years ago the UL office we dealt with would not list and product that 
was rack mountable even though as an individual item it met all the 
requirements. We would have UL recognition, CSA certifcation as product and a 
GS mark. This has since changed.
 
Dave Clement 
Motorola Inc. 
Test Lab Services 
Homologation Engineering 
20 Cabot Blvd. 
Mansfield, MA 02048 

P:508-851-8259 
F:508-851-8512 
C:508-725-9689 
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com>  
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ 
<http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/>  

-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and 
keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the 
keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart 
mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS 
requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the 
mouse.
 
Richard Woods 
Sensormatic Electronics 
Tyco International 

-Original Message-
From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM
To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart 
mark for components. 
 
Dave Clement 
Motorola Inc. 
Test Lab Services 
Homologation Engineering 
20 Cabot Blvd. 
Mansfield, MA 02048 

P:508-851-8259 
F:508-851-8512 
C:508-725-9689 
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com>  
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ 
<http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/>  

-Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


>From Doug McKean: 

>>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. 

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
<<<<<<<<<<<< 

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the device 
to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they 
Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product.  
The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished 
products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS mark.  

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Tyra, John 

Greg Galluccio wrote:

>> The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and
finished products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS mark.  
 
Unless something has changed in the in the last two years, when I was
employed at TUV,   this is actually not quite correct. The GS Mark is only
for finished ready to use products which do not require any special
installation considerations to make them safe. It cannot be issued for
incomplete unfinished products which require an enclosure, for instance, to
make them  compliant with the standards. For components TUV would issue the
"Bauart Mark" which is  their equivalent to the UL recognition mark.A Bauart
Mark usually contains conditions of acceptability such as special
installation considerations while it was not allowed to have conditions of
acceptability on a GS License. If I remember correctly Bauart Mark
and is not regulated by the German Government as the GS Mark is

 
 
 -Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


>From Doug McKean: 

In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much.


Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
 

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the
device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore
they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished
product.  The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components
and finished products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS
mark.  

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com 

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Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Warren Birmingham 


The most likely reason I can think of is that some companies "demand" 
either a UL or TUV mark specifically hence the dual marking.  I knew of 
one company that would accept a test report only from a specific 
laboratory.


Both UL and TUV are NRTLs.  It is also possible that TUV met some 
specific European credibility in a specific place.  I also believe, but 
am not entirely sure, that products for use in restricted locations is 
a UL workaround not generally compliant with EN Standards and not 
generally available for CE Marked products.  Other than the differences 
between listings and R/C status and compliance variations thereto, it 
is strange.  However, a company CAN obtain both a listing and a 
recognized component on the same product to suit their own purposes.


Comments?

Warren Birmingham


On Wednesday, Oct 9, 2002, at 09:42 US/Pacific, soundsu...@aol.com 
wrote:



From Doug McKean:

In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying 
much.


Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark? 

Mfr is a stateside company.

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only.
But, one that essentially anyone could buy.

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals?


It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the 
device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), 
therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it 
as a finished product.  The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating 
between components and finished products - both can receive GS 
approval.  Hence the TUV GS mark. 


That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave.

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com




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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread richwoods 
Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and
keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and
the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the
Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS
requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on
the mouse.
 
Richard Woods 
Sensormatic Electronics 
Tyco International 

-Original Message-
From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM
To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the
Bauart mark for components. 
 
Dave Clement 
Motorola Inc. 
Test Lab Services 
Homologation Engineering 
20 Cabot Blvd. 
Mansfield, MA 02048 

P:508-851-8259 
F:508-851-8512 
C:508-725-9689 
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com <mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com>  
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/
<http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/>  

-Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


>From Doug McKean: 

>>>>>>>>In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much.


Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
<<<<<<<<<<<< 

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the
device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore
they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished
product.  The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components
and finished products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS
mark.  

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com

Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Doug McKean 

Great apologies with the dyslexia here.  
Yes, the input is 115-230vac range. 
Regards, Doug McKean 


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Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Doug McKean 

To make things simpler, it could be a stand alone workstation 
with Recognition approval here in the States and with a GS 
approval for Europe. 

I don't want to mention any names but certainly there are well 
known personal computer mfrs here in the states which 
routinely get listings on their product with a "representative" 
sample without using every single permutation of every single 
interface card sold out there. 

Regards, Doug McKean 


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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread David_Sterner 

Doug -

Dual listing is simple economics assuming you meant '115 V' by your '155 V':

Multiple approvals let you sell slow-moving US inventory overseas simply by
switching the linecord (if you supply multilingual I-I's).  In the same
manner, slow-moving international inventory can be sold here.

Without dual listing, post-manufacture 'conversion' (U.S. - international)
is impractical;  you would have to break it down and rebuild it.

Another advantage is inventory simplification (reduces SKU's).

David

-Original Message-
From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:44 AM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 



In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. 

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. 

Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - 
why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get 
UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal 
to get a listing for such a product? 

And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's 
some deviation within the testing as to cause the product 
to be GS accepted but not with a listing. 

Regards, Doug (scratching head...) 


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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Juhasz, John (IndSys, GE Interlogix) 

Sounds interesting.

Typically, the UL recognition mark is used for components.
>From UL's web site: 
"These are marks consumers rarely see because they are specifically
used on component parts that are part of a larger product or system.
These components may have restrictions on their performance or may be
incomplete in construction. The Component Recognition marking is found
on a wide range of products, including some switches, power supplies,
printed wiring boards, some kinds of industrial control equipment and
thousands of other products."

If the product can be used standalone  - with a mouse, keyboard and
monitor, then I would've expected to see a listing mark. However,
recognition can be applied to "some kinds of industrial control equipment"
-perhaps in installations where such product is a 'component' of a larger
system. But then you could also have UL evaluate the product as a 
'listed accessory'. 
Perhaps the wrong mark was used on the label? But that would be picked-up
during Follow-Up Services inspection . . . if the product was put through
UL. A more established manufacturer would more likely to have had the product
evaluated properly and the right mark applied.
I would be more concerned if the manufacturer was 'more recently established'
less aware, or more cavalier regarding product safety.

John A. Juhasz

GE Interlogix
Fiber Options Div.
Bohemia, NY 

-Original Message-
From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:44 AM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 



In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. 

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing. 

Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends - 
why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get 
UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal 
to get a listing for such a product? 

And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's 
some deviation within the testing as to cause the product 
to be GS accepted but not with a listing. 

Regards, Doug (scratching head...) 


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Re: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Douglas_Beckwith 


Hi Doug,
I have seen this recently on another cord connected power supply, like you
use on a laptop, and I wondered about that too. I am speculating, but it
may be that the product was approved before TUV had NRTL status i North
America, thus an approval by an OSHA/SCC accredited third party was
required to sell it in North America. It could also be that it was done for
marketing reasons, in which case we know there  is absolutely no logical
reason why.

Regards

Doug




"Doug McKean" @majordomo.ieee.org on 10/09/2002
11:43:44 AM

Please respond to "Doug McKean" 

Sent by:  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org


To:   "EMC-PSTC Discussion Group" 
cc:
Subject:  Question regarding something slightly unusual ...



In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much.

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?

Mfr is a stateside company.

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only.
But, one that essentially anyone could buy.

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals?
I would assume such a thing would normally get a Listing.

Maybe turning the question around for our overseas friends -
why would you get a GS mark for your product but only get
UL recognition for an ITE computer product when it's normal
to get a listing for such a product?

And now I'm wondering if with such a device that there's
some deviation within the testing as to cause the product
to be GS accepted but not with a listing.

Regards, Doug (scratching head...)


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RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...

2002-10-09 Thread Clement Dave-LDC009 
TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart 
mark for components. 
 
Dave Clement 
Motorola Inc. 
Test Lab Services 
Homologation Engineering 
20 Cabot Blvd. 
Mansfield, MA 02048 

P:508-851-8259 
F:508-851-8512 
C:508-725-9689 
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com   
http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ 
  

-Original Message-
From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... 


>From Doug McKean: 

In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. 

Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial 
ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for 
that same product get the TUV "GS" mark?  

Mfr is a stateside company. 

Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. 
But, one that essentially anyone could buy. 

What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? 
 

It's not really a mixed set of approvals.  UL must have considered the device 
to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they 
Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product.  
The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished 
products - both can receive GS approval.  Hence the TUV GS mark.  

That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. 

Greg Galluccio
www.productapprovals.com