Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I think SPI runs at 500 KHz.  That is 50 times slower then Ethernet if
> you
> > look at only the bit rate.   But what matters, I think more is the time
> it
> > takes to send one message.   It might (maybe?) be faster on SPI because
> you
> > avoid the TCP/IP stack.  With SPI your software is driving the bare
> > hardware.
>
> SPI on cheap micro controller run in several Mbit/second, maybe 10-20Mbit
> is common. It is slower than Ethernet but there is nothing else where.
>

Yes they are that fast in some micro controllers.  But on the "Pi" they do
about 500K.   I think they made some cost/performance/power trades
There might be a way to make it go faster, if you have ever worked with
bare ARM hardware with no OS every pin is nearly infinitely configurable
but you have to understand how to program some very complex registers and
this the NOT standard across all ARM chips, so you are into a 500 page
manual every time.



> > Sometimes a car at 55 MPH can beat a 550 MPH airplane if the trip is
> short
> > enough.  I don't know about this case but it's kind of moot as 500KHz is
> > well more than fast enough.
>
> I think SPI on simple device may beat Ethernet on ordinary computer then
> it come to real time tasks. Capacity is a lot lower but it is available
> then needed.
>

Yes, this was my point. I think the way it works in Linux is you get access
to the port and then just push data out.  With Ethernet and IP you have a
few layers of software between you and the physical art.   This is why I
just can't believe these people worrying about latency in a switch,
compared to an IP networking stack the switch is ttruely "nothing"

>
> > > Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
> > > the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?
>
> SPI is simple stuff. It work similar to a shift register, data is clocked
> in and out simultaneously. It may be possible to connect several in series
> and then I think principle is similar to Ethercat although without
> possibility to insert data and checksum while shifted through.
>

You have to read the Mesa documentation.  If it wants checksums then you
send them. There is no choice in this unless you want to make your own bit
files

>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Chris Albertson]

Real-Time is never defined as "now" you can't have that.   Even if I place
a pulse in a wire it takes time to come out the other end.   Yes, seriously
the speed of light delay through a cable is easy to measure with modest
equipment.   I have an application here at home were I measure and account
for the time it takes for a signal to move down 50 feet of coax cable.
There is always delay.

A better definition of real time is that events at happen on a schedule and
the system is designed so the schedule is not violated.  Or not violated in
a manner that would hurt the application.This is very different from
just being fast.   You can define a real-tine system as one that is always
"on time".  Being on time is not the same as being fast.  In fact one good
way to make sure you are on time is to make good use of buffers and queues.
   An example from real life is that you can be on time for an appointment
be getting to the address a few minute early then waiting at the curb until
a few seconds before the appointment time. In this case the curb is a kind
of queue where you wait.Reclocking is a common technique where data are
sent across a cable to be buffered at the far end then clocked out of the
buffer.

If you look at any real time operating system (RTOS) one of the primitive
functions is always a queue of some kind.  You can't get much done inside
of any complex system without queues.

Without reading the VHDL source code we don't know what is happening inside
the Mesa card but I strongly suspect the data in those UDP packets is
getting re-clocked and the exact time when a packet arrives hardly matters.
As long as they arrive at the curb BEFORE the appointed time so to speak we
are OK.   LinuxCNC seems to be designed around tasks that get executed on a
fixed periodic schedule.  In these kinds of systems as long as the data
"gets there" before the net execution cycle it does not mater when it
arrived.  Scanning the VHDL source I see many times where the system
waits for a"raising edge" before going on and doing something.  That
"waiting at the cub analogy might apply.  If so then minor jitter in
arrival time would not matter at all.  Need to read the source code to know
for sure.




A queue is not real time.  Real time is *now* not when the queue decides
> to send.  Losing packets in a critical environment is not a good thing.
> Let's suppose a limit is hit and the controller calls for a stop in one
> packet.  Oops, that packet got dropped.  And the machine bangs into the
> physical stops.  Not a good thing.  If you are going to use UDP for
> critical situations, you're best off using a direct connect, getting rid
> of the latency of the LAN and talking directly to the Mesa card.
>
> Mark
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 October 2016 00:42:02 Chris Albertson wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Tuesday 25 October 2016 23:07:55 bari wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is touted to be 100% compatible with R-Pi stuff. But has an
> > allwinner H3 brain, so it runs on intel code, not arm. Its all
> > ordered now Bari, so we'll find out I guess.
>
> The Allwinner H3 is defiantly an ARM Cortex A7.   It is a quad core
> chip that goes into many name brand (but cheap)  tablets and set top
> cable boxes.   The company does make a "PC on a stick" product but
> this is not it

I sit, corrected.  But that also means it has a better chance of running 
Bari's hm2_raspi driver without any tummy aches.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Chris Albertson]

Does anyone here know of one verified case where a packet was dropped by a
switch?   This just does not happen

Also, if you place a second Ethernet dongle on the Pi, the dongle and the
built-in port share a serial bus.  This is not really an issue but it you
don't like the idea of a multiplexed bus, you can't avoid it.

Switches are not like routers they work at the Ethernet packet level and
only read the first few bits of each packet then cut it through fro input
FIFO to output FIFO. It is done in special hardware

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Przemek Klosowski <
przemek.klosow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 11:18 PM, Chris Albertson
>  wrote:
> > Let's say we have two computers and each is sending UDP packets to two
> > different Mesa cards.   I can't see how those packets would ever be on
> > the same physical cable, assuming a switched network.   Each computer
> > has its own cable to the switch.  The switch will read the packets and
> > place them on different outbound ports each with its own cable going
> > to the different Mesa boards.The UDP packets can't collide
>
> In theory, no. In practice, they all use the internal switch bus, and
> you are depending on the implementation details of a random network
> switch chip from a far-away country. Maybe they can switch fine on the
> first simultaneous arrival but can't sustain repeated collisions, or
> whatever. You just have to test it, and it's not quite easy-you'd have
> to set up four (or 2*N) independent Ethernet stations with very
> tightly coordinated on-wire packet streams.
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 October 2016 00:21:37 Chris Albertson wrote:

> I think SPI runs at 500 KHz.  That is 50 times slower then Ethernet if
> you look at only the bit rate.   But what matters, I think more is the
> time it takes to send one message.   It might (maybe?) be faster on
> SPI because you avoid the TCP/IP stack.  With SPI your software is
> driving the bare hardware.
>
The Orange Pi claims up to 5 megabit SPI speeds, thats 500 kilobytes. And 
I have scopes enough to check it.

> Sometimes a car at 55 MPH can beat a 550 MPH airplane if the trip is
> short enough.  I don't know about this case but it's kind of moot as
> 500KHz is well more than fast enough.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:07 PM, bari  wrote:
> > @Gene
> >
> > Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided
> > on the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?


Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[dragon]

The Allwinner H3 is a quad core ARM processor... not intel. While the
orange Pi claims 100% compatibility with the raspberry Pi add-ons there
are reports of a few incompatibilities. Also note that it does have a
different graphics core and I think a different ethernet core as well
and not all of the Raspberry Pi linux images will work on the Orange Pi
because of that.

Allwinner likes to disregard intellectual property laws and the GPL in
specific so I personally try to stay away from devices that run their SoCs.



On 10/25/2016 11:11 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 23:07:55 bari wrote:
> 
>> @Gene
>>
>> Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
>> the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?
>>
>> Orange Pi board,  Ethernet > 7i92, hm2_ethdriver
>>
>>
>> Rpi board, SPI >7i90, hm2_raspi driver
> 
> This is touted to be 100% compatible with R-Pi stuff. But has an 
> allwinner H3 brain, so it runs on intel code, not arm. Its all ordered 
> now Bari, so we'll find out I guess.
> 
> 
>> On 10/25/2016 08:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:
 On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> thing if I want a pad class controller.

 OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.

 https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-
 mes a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070

 You may be interested.

 Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
>>>
>>> I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I
>>> have lost it in the noise.
>>>
 Matsche
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>
>> --
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> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 23:07:55 bari wrote:
>
>
> This is touted to be 100% compatible with R-Pi stuff. But has an
> allwinner H3 brain, so it runs on intel code, not arm. Its all ordered
> now Bari, so we'll find out I guess.
>


The Allwinner H3 is defiantly an ARM Cortex A7.   It is a quad core chip
that goes into many name brand (but cheap)  tablets and set top cable
boxes.   The company does make a "PC on a stick" product but this is not it


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> I think SPI runs at 500 KHz.  That is 50 times slower then Ethernet if you
> look at only the bit rate.   But what matters, I think more is the time it
> takes to send one message.   It might (maybe?) be faster on SPI because you
> avoid the TCP/IP stack.  With SPI your software is driving the bare
> hardware.

SPI on cheap micro controller run in several Mbit/second, maybe 10-20Mbit is 
common. It is slower than Ethernet but there is nothing else where.

> Sometimes a car at 55 MPH can beat a 550 MPH airplane if the trip is short
> enough.  I don't know about this case but it's kind of moot as 500KHz is
> well more than fast enough.

I think SPI on simple device may beat Ethernet on ordinary computer then it 
come to real time tasks. Capacity is a lot lower but it is available then 
needed.

> > Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
> > the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?

SPI is simple stuff. It work similar to a shift register, data is clocked in 
and out simultaneously. It may be possible to connect several in series and 
then I think principle is similar to Ethercat although without possibility to 
insert data and checksum while shifted through.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> Initiallly the hm2_eth driver provided no good recovery from dropped packets 
> (it would hang for 100s of MS and cause a cascade of linuxcnc errors) but the 
> errors occurred so seldomly that they were not a real problem (One test 
> system 
> had more than a year of uptime 24/7 at a 4 KHz update rate with no dropped 
> packets before it was updated to a linuxcnc version with packket loss 
> handling)

Hostmot is probably good but with ordinary computer I there is erros now and 
then. With recovery it seems to work well but I have not investigated how well.

> ... so occasional random packet loss causes 
> very litte harm)

One missed update of value in control loop should do very little harm.

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product --> surplus PC

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> The appeal of consumer products is that they can be much cheaper than 
> industrial or custom products. Using a PC, and parallel port card with 
> LinuxCNC can make for a very affordable machine controller, but I am 
> always on the lookout for other options. Embedded processor cards are 
> popular now, but after one gets all of the bits needed (power supply, 
> housing, interface card, etc.) it's cheaper to find a surplus PC and be 
> done with it.

Surplus PC advantage certainly is there are plenty available cheap.

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Chris Albertson]

I think SPI runs at 500 KHz.  That is 50 times slower then Ethernet if you
look at only the bit rate.   But what matters, I think more is the time it
takes to send one message.   It might (maybe?) be faster on SPI because you
avoid the TCP/IP stack.  With SPI your software is driving the bare
hardware.

Sometimes a car at 55 MPH can beat a 550 MPH airplane if the trip is short
enough.  I don't know about this case but it's kind of moot as 500KHz is
well more than fast enough.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:07 PM, bari  wrote:

> @Gene
>
> Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
> the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> >> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
> >> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.
> >
> > I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces
> > might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder
> > latency, or whatever.
> 
> Another thought, pull the motor and turn the rotary table's input shaft 
> to get an idea of the load the motor sees. I think it is good 
> integration practice to check isolated shafts, couplers, screws and 
> slides by hand while fitting a machine.

To check by hand for jerk is a good idea. To run a step response is also a good 
idea.

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I both succeeded and failed. I think inertia is high and friction low the axis 
it failed.


On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
"Todd  Zuercher"  wrote:

> at_pid was a nice idea, but has anyone successfully made it work?  (I'm 
> pretty sure there is a good reason few if anybody is using it.)
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marius Liebenberg" 
> To: "Nicklas Karlsson" , "Enhanced Machine 
> Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:33:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode
> 
>   I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.
> 
> >Did you try the tune mode?
> >
> >It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
> >Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
> >down on page "pid.N.tune-"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
> >"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:
> >
> >>  Hi All
> >>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
> >>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
> >>working
> >>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
> >>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
> >>  servo.
> >>
> >>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
> >>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
> >>planetary
> >>  gearbox.
> >>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> >>
> >>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
> >>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
> >>do
> >>  some I/O.
> >>
> >>  -
> >>  Regards / Groete
> >>
> >>  Marius D. Liebenberg
> >>  +27 82 698 3251
> >>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 25 October 2016 23:07:55 bari wrote:

> @Gene
>
> Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on
> the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?
>
> Orange Pi board,  Ethernet > 7i92, hm2_ethdriver
>
>
> Rpi board, SPI >7i90, hm2_raspi driver

This is touted to be 100% compatible with R-Pi stuff. But has an 
allwinner H3 brain, so it runs on intel code, not arm. Its all ordered 
now Bari, so we'll find out I guess.


> On 10/25/2016 08:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:
> >> On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> >>> So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> >>> thing if I want a pad class controller.
> >>
> >> OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.
> >>
> >> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-
> >>mes a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070
> >>
> >> You may be interested.
> >>
> >> Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
> >
> > I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I
> > have lost it in the noise.
> >
> >> Matsche
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Chris Albertson]

The surplus PC is only cheaper if it is indeed surplus.   I just got two
for free.A free quad core I7 is the most compute power per dollar I'm
likely to find.

But for other applications I need a smaller physical size and low enough
power to run on batteries.  Low cost is a nice plus if I can get it.   So,
Have you seen the Rasberry Pi Zero.  They are $5 each and run Linux.  The
"zero" is about 3/4 inch by 2 inches and again they sell for $5 from first
their retailers, you don't have to go to eBay to get that price.  US
vendors have them.  It has the same dual row of header pins and the pinout
is the same as the larger Pi 3.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-zero/
But for the LinuxCNC/Machinekit use case I'd go for the Pi 3 and a Mesa
card that combo seems to by working with the existing code base.

The Zero seems to be the ticket to put in a cloths dries so it can text
your phone when the cycle finished or the web server in the electric
meter.  When an entire computer costs $5 retail quantity one you can afford
to put them in everything from  light bulbs to toaster ovens

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Kirk Wallace 
wrote:

> The appeal of consumer products is that they can be much cheaper than
> industrial or custom products. Using a PC, and parallel port card with
> LinuxCNC can make for a very affordable machine controller, but I am
> always on the lookout for other options. Embedded processor cards are
> popular now, but after one gets all of the bits needed (power supply,
> housing, interface card, etc.) it's cheaper to find a surplus PC and be
> done with it.
>
> I recently needed to replace the radio in my car and while cruising eBay
> I saw an Eincar 2DIN radio and thought radios are sold in the millions
> which keeps the cost low, it has a decently sized touch display, a
> capable processor, USB and other I/O, and is already running Linux. It
> seemed most of a controller is present.
>
> I found very little information on what goes on inside these radios, so
> I had to get one to take it apart. Here is what I found inside:
> http://wallacecompany.com/tmp/Eincar_radio/IMG_2440-2a.png
>
> Now, I'm not so sure it would work as a controller. The radio boots
> immediately. The screens look sharp and react quickly. The touch feature
> works very well, all of which makes for a good radio, but most of the
> hardware inside is radio hardware, so the main board would be wasted on
> a machine controller. Basically, that leaves the display and the
> housing. So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> thing if I want a pad class controller.
>
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:52:08 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:
> > On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > > So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> > > thing if I want a pad class controller.
> >
> > OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.
> >
> > https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-m
> >es a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070
> >
> > You may be interested.
> >
> > Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
>
> I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I
> have lost it in the noise.
>
> > Matsche
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

A Kmail search found it, but 3 weeks delivery?  Order processing time 7 
days?

Now I recall why I was never gonna buy thru aliexpress again.  What a 
bunch of maroons.

What else will I need to load it with, I may as well see if I can short 
circuit a never ending batch of consecutive delays if I can.  I think 
the kit I ordered, $44 with shipping, has everything but the microsd 
card, and I can get those at wallies.  And I have 2 or 3 ways to write 
to those for an initial load.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[bari]

@Gene

Not sure how well SPI works on the Orange Pi. Since you've decided on 
the 7i90HD with SPI why don't use use the Rpiwith it?

Orange Pi board,  Ethernet > 7i92, hm2_ethdriver


Rpi board, SPI >7i90, hm2_raspi driver


On 10/25/2016 08:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:
>
>> On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>>> So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
>>> thing if I want a pad class controller.
>> OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.
>>
>> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-mes
>> a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070
>>
>> You may be interested.
>>
>> Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
>>
> I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I have
> lost it in the noise.
>
>> Matsche
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Moving past Home Switch

[Jon Elson]

On 10/25/2016 06:04 PM, hubert wrote:
> Is there any way to move past home position.
>
> Each of my Axis, X, Y, and Z use three sensors to provide inputs for min
> and max limits and Homing.  We have the Home switch set about 1 inch
> inside the max limit switch.  However, We need to raise the Z axis above
> the home switch but inside the limit switch for the head to clear the
> tool changer.   Also for some parts we need to make use of more of the
> table than the Home switch allows.  Is this a miss-configuration problem
> or a deficiency? When we try to move past the home switch the machine
> refuses to move.
>
>
Assuming your home switch is 1 inch from the top (max limit) 
and 4 inches from the bottom (min limit),
and that the HOME_OFFSET is 0, then you should set the soft 
limits like this :
MIN_LIMIT = -4.0
MAX_LIMIT = 1.0

This will give a total range of 5.0 inches, with 1 inch 
above the home switch.
(If you use mm, adapt accordingly, the scheme is the same.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 25 October 2016 21:03:51 W. Martinjak wrote:

> On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> > thing if I want a pad class controller.
>
> OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.
>
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-mes
>a-7i90-spi-works-well#82070
>
> You may be interested.
>
> Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.
>
I am on board, 7i90HD ordered, now where was that $15 Orange pi? I have 
lost it in the noise.

> Matsche


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[W. Martinjak]

On 2016-10-25 23:10, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
> thing if I want a pad class controller.
>

OK, then let me promote my hm2_raspi driver.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/31753-raspberry-pi-and-mesa-7i90-spi-works-well#82070

You may be interested.

Ok,ok, I'm not unselfish because I need some testers.

Matsche 

-- 
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nur ihre Gegner sterben nach und nach"

Max Planck


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Re: [Emc-users] Moving past Home Switch

[Stuart Stevenson]

If you would include a link to your ini file it would be much easier to
diagnose and answer.

On Oct 25, 2016 6:11 PM, "hubert"  wrote:

> Is there any way to move past home position.
>
> Each of my Axis, X, Y, and Z use three sensors to provide inputs for min
> and max limits and Homing.  We have the Home switch set about 1 inch
> inside the max limit switch.  However, We need to raise the Z axis above
> the home switch but inside the limit switch for the head to clear the
> tool changer.   Also for some parts we need to make use of more of the
> table than the Home switch allows.  Is this a miss-configuration problem
> or a deficiency? When we try to move past the home switch the machine
> refuses to move.
>
> Hubert
>
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Moving past Home Switch

[Danny Miller]

There are multiple parameters:

1.  You can declare the homing switch to be a coordinate other than 0.  
e.g. "after we settle on the switch, this axis is offset so this is now 
+1.25 inches"

2.  You can set axis limits at anything.  I probably would never set a 
negative coord as a limit but maybe that's just me.

3.  You can send the axis anywhere after homing.   e.g. "settle on the 
homing switch, call that +1.25", then move to 0.5" and leave it there."

Danny


On 10/25/2016 7:07 PM, Mark Johnsen wrote:
> Just guessing, but you might have software limits set to 0.  That'd be a
> configuration issue, I'd guess the .ini file or the main *.hal file would
> have those in it.
>
> You should be able to travel past the home switch.  On a side note, I have
> no home switches and will 'manually' home in Axis by clicking the home
> button, but I'm not sure it does any good and in my config, I ahve it setup
> w/ no homes as well as only 1 limit switch for each ends of an axis.  I do
> have software limits set and they're set w/ the idea that I'll home
> somewhere near the middle of my axes.  (except for z).  Anyway, look at
> that.
> Mark
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 4:04 PM, hubert  wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to move past home position.
>>
>> Each of my Axis, X, Y, and Z use three sensors to provide inputs for min
>> and max limits and Homing.  We have the Home switch set about 1 inch
>> inside the max limit switch.  However, We need to raise the Z axis above
>> the home switch but inside the limit switch for the head to clear the
>> tool changer.   Also for some parts we need to make use of more of the
>> table than the Home switch allows.  Is this a miss-configuration problem
>> or a deficiency? When we try to move past the home switch the machine
>> refuses to move.
>>
>> Hubert
>>
> --
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[Emc-users] Moving past Home Switch

[Mark Johnsen]

Just guessing, but you might have software limits set to 0.  That'd be a
configuration issue, I'd guess the .ini file or the main *.hal file would
have those in it.

You should be able to travel past the home switch.  On a side note, I have
no home switches and will 'manually' home in Axis by clicking the home
button, but I'm not sure it does any good and in my config, I ahve it setup
w/ no homes as well as only 1 limit switch for each ends of an axis.  I do
have software limits set and they're set w/ the idea that I'll home
somewhere near the middle of my axes.  (except for z).  Anyway, look at
that.
Mark

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 4:04 PM, hubert  wrote:

> Is there any way to move past home position.
>
> Each of my Axis, X, Y, and Z use three sensors to provide inputs for min
> and max limits and Homing.  We have the Home switch set about 1 inch
> inside the max limit switch.  However, We need to raise the Z axis above
> the home switch but inside the limit switch for the head to clear the
> tool changer.   Also for some parts we need to make use of more of the
> table than the Home switch allows.  Is this a miss-configuration problem
> or a deficiency? When we try to move past the home switch the machine
> refuses to move.
>
> Hubert
>
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Bruce Layne]

On 10/25/2016 05:10 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> the hardware inside is radio hardware, so the main board would be wasted on
> a machine controller

A lot of people like to listen to music or talk radio in the shop. Maybe 
that radio hardware is not a waste after all.  :-)

I need a dual core controller so I can devote one processor to being a 
realtime machining controller while the other streams YouTube machining 
videos.  :-)

I've been following the discussion on this list describing a small 
inexpensive FPGA CNC machine interface board in conjunction with a tiny 
and inexpensive controller board like the Raspberry Pi.  That could be a 
very inexpensive solution, but it could also be a very compact, low 
power, easy to install and robust solution.  What I'd really like to see 
is a controller in the class of the Raspberry Pi with a stack-on 
daughter board for the FPGA motion control and general purpose I/O.  The 
daughter board would have screw terminals but they could be snapped off 
in banks to swap or service the daughter board or the underlying 
controller.  Processors are now sufficiently low power that keeping a 
stack like this cool shouldn't be a problem.  This would open up a lot 
of potential for integrated CNC machines, including desktop machines.  
I've always felt that the Polulu stepper drivers were a bit too 
delicate, even for hobby based 3D printers.  Maybe offer four axis 
daughter boards, with one optimized for stepper motors and another for 
servo motors?  There could be enough I/O that there would be no need to 
configure unused motion control axes as general purpose I/O.  If you 
didn't need those features, simply ignore them.  That would greatly 
reduce the setup complexity to a nearly plug-and-play LinuxCNC solution. 
Standards are good!

The PC104 format promised this sort of hardware stacking modularity but 
it's fallen out of favor lately as we've flocked to the Arduino, 
BeagleBone, and Raspberry Pi.



BTW - I was never much of a video gamer and haven't played a video game 
in probably 30 years, but I'm thinking of building a classic 1980's era 
video game console using a Raspberry Pi, mostly for the geeky fun of 
it... like I need another project.







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[Emc-users] Moving past Home Switch

[hubert]

Is there any way to move past home position.

Each of my Axis, X, Y, and Z use three sensors to provide inputs for min 
and max limits and Homing.  We have the Home switch set about 1 inch 
inside the max limit switch.  However, We need to raise the Z axis above 
the home switch but inside the limit switch for the head to clear the 
tool changer.   Also for some parts we need to make use of more of the 
table than the Home switch allows.  Is this a miss-configuration problem 
or a deficiency? When we try to move past the home switch the machine 
refuses to move.

Hubert


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[Emc-users] LinuxCNC and a Consumer Product

[Kirk Wallace]

The appeal of consumer products is that they can be much cheaper than 
industrial or custom products. Using a PC, and parallel port card with 
LinuxCNC can make for a very affordable machine controller, but I am 
always on the lookout for other options. Embedded processor cards are 
popular now, but after one gets all of the bits needed (power supply, 
housing, interface card, etc.) it's cheaper to find a surplus PC and be 
done with it.

I recently needed to replace the radio in my car and while cruising eBay 
I saw an Eincar 2DIN radio and thought radios are sold in the millions 
which keeps the cost low, it has a decently sized touch display, a 
capable processor, USB and other I/O, and is already running Linux. It 
seemed most of a controller is present.

I found very little information on what goes on inside these radios, so 
I had to get one to take it apart. Here is what I found inside:
http://wallacecompany.com/tmp/Eincar_radio/IMG_2440-2a.png

Now, I'm not so sure it would work as a controller. The radio boots 
immediately. The screens look sharp and react quickly. The touch feature 
works very well, all of which makes for a good radio, but most of the 
hardware inside is radio hardware, so the main board would be wasted on 
a machine controller. Basically, that leaves the display and the 
housing. So, I'm back to piecing together some sort of beagleduino
thing if I want a pad class controller.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/25/2016 01:15 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On 10/25/2016 10:35 AM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
>> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
>> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.
>
> I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces
> might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder
> latency, or whatever.

Another thought, pull the motor and turn the rotary table's input shaft 
to get an idea of the load the motor sees. I think it is good 
integration practice to check isolated shafts, couplers, screws and 
slides by hand while fitting a machine.


-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/25/2016 10:35 AM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.

I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces 
might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder 
latency, or whatever.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Changing rapid traverse rate at run-time

[Klemen Živkovič]

It is nice to have also ability to change this max velocities and max
accelerations in runtime especially if you are "self-building" machine.
Than it is required to get max velocity and especcially acceleration to
know when machine is within allowable shaking.

If you do this with alot of trial, change, reset linux-cnc, it is very time
consuming.

It seems that after you get this parameters right than it seems they will
remain constant for long time.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 1:51 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 25 October 2016 at 10:09, Alexander Rössler 
> wrote:
> > Is there a way to change the rapid traverse rate (G0) ate run-time?
> > Preferably without touching NML...
>
> Not in Auto mode, I don't think, but there are
> ini.joint.N.max-velocity and ini.axis.L.max-velocity pins.
>
> But why would the max velocity change at run-time? Why not use
> different G1 feeds for your application?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Todd Zuercher]

at_pid was a nice idea, but has anyone successfully made it work?  (I'm pretty 
sure there is a good reason few if anybody is using it.)

- Original Message -
From: "Marius Liebenberg" 
To: "Nicklas Karlsson" , "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:33:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

  I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:

> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:40:46 -0400
> From: Stephen Dubovsky 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new
> oramge pi 2e
> 
> All switches do at least store and forward today.  Even the $20 cheap
> ones.  We use ethernet for real time control in some of our products.
> Faster loop time than LinuxCNC.  We use raw ethernet frames so that we
> don't even need the ethernet stack (no DNS/etc needed either.)  We also run
> web services on the same products (ARM based) that run the IP stack and
> coexist peacefully.
>
> Don't run ALL the computers in your office and the real-time network on the
> same switch.  real time stuff on one switch, rest of office on another, and
> one cable between the switches.  The real-time one will never see much
> traffic (except broadcasts.)  We do it.  It works.  We actualy have the
> opposite problem.  If we do even 1khz broadcast packets w/ real-time it
> drives office wifi *NUTS* and crashes.  FWIW, There is no way to do an
> encrypted wifi broadcast.  Everyone has different keys and this the access
> port has a ton of encryption to do (plus it never lets your phones go to
> sleep so the batteries die FAST.)  VLAN tagging solves the broadcast/wifi
> issue but thats no longer a $20 switch.
>
> Watchdog timeouts solve too many missing packet problems.  IEEE1588v2
> solves most jitter problems if timing is critical.  Embedded parts seem to
> all support it now.  We implemented it but have not needed to use the
> actual correction factors yet as our control style is fairly robust against
> jitter (but its there if we ever need it.)
>
> Stephen


Initiallly the hm2_eth driver provided no good recovery from dropped packets 
(it would hang for 100s of MS and cause a cascade of linuxcnc errors) but the 
errors occurred so seldomly that they were not a real problem (One test system 
had more than a year of uptime 24/7 at a 4 KHz update rate with no dropped 
packets before it was updated to a linuxcnc version with packket loss 
handling)

This is in a benign electrical environment and of course packets can be 
corrupted by severe electrical noise so packet loss handling has been added to 
deal with lost read and write packets. Currently not all possible data loss 
situations are handled but I expect that they will be dealt with eventually. 
This requires separate handling (handshaking basically) of messages that 
change remote or linuxCNC state but are not continually retransmitted
(by far  most information sent back and for simply copies state info from 
linuxcnc to the remote or vice versa so occasional random packet loss causes 
very litte harm)

Switches can be used with hm2_eth to allow (currently) up to 4 remote cards
The remote hm2 cards are 100BT so a Gig switch works well as a 
concentrator/distributer with minimal host time usage (the driver separates 
the read and read request functions so there is a gain from overlaped 
operations) Typically there are store/forward delays when you change speed
but it works quite well at 1 KHz and 4 cards


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:33:57 -0600
Charles Buckley  wrote:

> I work in an environment at work where we do a lot of video broadcast over
> IP. That is all UDP multicast. Luckily, it is an environment where single
> dropped packet only corrupts that frame and section and is recovered the
> next base frame (ie, anywhere from 1 to 16 frames).
> 
> The reason we use UDP instead of other protocols is that UDP has no
> handshake. It is unilateral. Other protocols would require some sort of
> variation of a handshake to verify packet integrity. But, we also have an
> inherent safety check in that a lost packet only affects the individual
> frame. It does not propagate past that. In a RT situation with no check
> within the data itself, I would go with the most streamlined an uncluttered
> port and network path.
> 
> I was not part of the discussion, so I do not know how the 7i92H works or
> what sort of data you would send over the network. ...
> ... If you drop a frame, it is not
> the end of the world. ...

Certainly not, usually it is a control loop. It is a lot faster than video, 
maybe around 20 times and there is also feedback sent the other way but amount 
of data sent is a lot less.

Bandwidth and execution power required is relatively low although it must be 
available regularly at a frequency in the order of 1kHz. Not all systems are 
built so that this is available regularly all the time.

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Stephen Dubovsky]

All switches do at least store and forward today.  Even the $20 cheap
ones.  We use ethernet for real time control in some of our products.
Faster loop time than LinuxCNC.  We use raw ethernet frames so that we
don't even need the ethernet stack (no DNS/etc needed either.)  We also run
web services on the same products (ARM based) that run the IP stack and
coexist peacefully.

Don't run ALL the computers in your office and the real-time network on the
same switch.  real time stuff on one switch, rest of office on another, and
one cable between the switches.  The real-time one will never see much
traffic (except broadcasts.)  We do it.  It works.  We actualy have the
opposite problem.  If we do even 1khz broadcast packets w/ real-time it
drives office wifi *NUTS* and crashes.  FWIW, There is no way to do an
encrypted wifi broadcast.  Everyone has different keys and this the access
port has a ton of encryption to do (plus it never lets your phones go to
sleep so the batteries die FAST.)  VLAN tagging solves the broadcast/wifi
issue but thats no longer a $20 switch.

Watchdog timeouts solve too many missing packet problems.  IEEE1588v2
solves most jitter problems if timing is critical.  Embedded parts seem to
all support it now.  We implemented it but have not needed to use the
actual correction factors yet as our control style is fairly robust against
jitter (but its there if we ever need it.)

Stephen

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Przemek Klosowski <
przemek.klosow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky 
> wrote:
> > Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
> > collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of
> them
> > now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.
>
> Of course, but you are assuming an ideal active switch, and that may
> or may not be the case. All the switched ports are sitting on an
> internal bus, whose bandwidth has to be better than N/2*individual
> port bandwidth, because in principle, all port pairs could be active
> at the same time; on a cheap switch that 'bisection' bandwidth may not
> quite be there.  Also, in general, two originators could be trying to
> talk to the same receiving port and collide on it---switches of course
> must implement some form of  'store and forward' to be able to decide
> where to switch the packet to, but cheap switches do not have a deep
> store queue---maybe they can handle one or two packets but not more
> than that. So, in practice, the collisions and dropped packets are
> possible.
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Changing rapid traverse rate at run-time

[Chris Radek]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 11:09:04AM +0200, Alexander R??ssler wrote:
> Is there a way to change the rapid traverse rate (G0) ate run-time? 
> Preferably without touching NML...

You can choose from the Rapid Override slider (percentage) and the
Max Velocity slider (velocity cap).

If neither of these work for your application, tell us more!

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Charles Buckley]

I work in an environment at work where we do a lot of video broadcast over
IP. That is all UDP multicast. Luckily, it is an environment where single
dropped packet only corrupts that frame and section and is recovered the
next base frame (ie, anywhere from 1 to 16 frames).

The reason we use UDP instead of other protocols is that UDP has no
handshake. It is unilateral. Other protocols would require some sort of
variation of a handshake to verify packet integrity. But, we also have an
inherent safety check in that a lost packet only affects the individual
frame. It does not propagate past that. In a RT situation with no check
within the data itself, I would go with the most streamlined an uncluttered
port and network path.

I was not part of the discussion, so I do not know how the 7i92H works or
what sort of data you would send over the network. But, if this is a
protocol you are writing or coding around, it is possible to go the video
concept were every x number of packets is a reference frame, which could
sanity check the machine's path. So, for instance, if you were doing some
sort of trajectory plan for something going from X1 Y1 to X2 Y2 in CAD, the
g-code generated  could include reference points along that line, then
broadcast the entire path to the machine. If you drop a frame, it is not
the end of the world. You should not crash the machine in most instances.
(You could trash the part if you drop the boundary points).

Personally, I think it is probably a lot of worry about a side issue. We
broadcast gigs of video via UDP internally where I work every minute and
alarms sound if we drop 3 frames. We rarely see packet drops.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Mark  wrote:

> On 10/25/2016 12:16 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> >> True dat.  But why take the chance and not use a direct connection with
> >> a cross-over cable?  Typical UDP traffic in a switched LAN is fairly
> >> fast but not necessarily totally reliable.  And over the years I've seen
> >> plenty of collisions on a switched network for both TCP and UDP.  The
> >> difference being TCP has error correction and will resend the packet.
> > The most usual in real time systems is packets are sent periodically and
> receiver know it will receive packets. If bandwidth should be used to the
> limit UDP is a better choice but with plenty of bandwidth left over TCP
> might be a better choice.
> >
> > Then I do real time systems usually I tolerate some lost packets.
> Usually the old value is not useful then new value is received but if there
> is enough time request resend would be good.
> >
> >
> > I guess the answer is it depend on available bandwidth and delay. You
> also need a mechanism to queue up old data no more needed.
> >
> > In real time systems a queue is usually not good because if there is not
> enough time it will start grow. If newest available data is used perfomance
> may degrade but software will continue to run.
> >
> >
> > Nicklas Karlsson
> Under UDP, the receiver will receive packets, however under the protocol
> it doesn't know if it receives "all" the packets.  UDP is kind of a send
> and forget protocol.  If you want to make sure that all packets are
> received, the only way to go is TCP.  UDP uses less bandwidth than TCP,
> though in reality the difference is quite small.
>
> A queue is not real time.  Real time is *now* not when the queue decides
> to send.  Losing packets in a critical environment is not a good thing.
> Let's suppose a limit is hit and the controller calls for a stop in one
> packet.  Oops, that packet got dropped.  And the machine bangs into the
> physical stops.  Not a good thing.  If you are going to use UDP for
> critical situations, you're best off using a direct connect, getting rid
> of the latency of the LAN and talking directly to the Mesa card.
>
> Mark
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/25/2016 01:46 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> I hate to say it but, a lot of old wives tales here.  What is the
> latency added by a cut through switch?  It's the packet header length
> divided by the Ethernet bit rate.   If you are worried about this kind
> of stuff them you might as well start using shortened cables and wire
> because of speed or light delays of one foot per nanosecond.The
> switch latency translated into movement of the mill comes out to
> micrometers or nanometers.
>
> If you are worried about a switch, then you really need to worry about
> what is on the back side of the Ethernet port on an ARM SBC like the
> Pi.   The USB system and the Ethernet are sharing a serial bus.   So
> Ethernet and all the USB ports share bandwidth. Even  with a second
> ethernet port your UDP packets get queued and have to wait for buss
> access.   You r keyboard, mouse, web surfing packets and UDP data
> going to the mill are all on that same bus.  This s a much bigger deal
> and there is no way around it
>
> But you know what?   The amount of data being send is not very much
> and it works just fine.
>
> Next question yo have two network ports, now the software has to look
> up which port to send each packet, there is now a routing problem the
> software networking stack has to deal with.  Does this added lookup
> add more time and latency?  Of course, typically routing is about 10x
> slower then switching.

Your machine, your money.  Do what you wish.  What looks good in theory 
doesn't always hold true in practice.  Been there, done that for almost 
the last 30 years as a system and network admin.  For the price of a 
dual NIC card and a crossover cable vs a relatively expensive switch 
which minimizes but doesn't eliminate the collision problem as I and 
others have pointed out, I know which direction I'd go.  Packet length 
and bandwidth do not eliminate collisions.  They happen on a network.  
If you are going to use UDP for a critical function, then you need to 
find a way to practically eliminate the chance of that happening.  The 
reliability of depending on a switched network versus a direct 
connection from the computer's NIC to the device isn't even close.

You are already going to have the issue of what's on the back side of 
the ethernet port on the ARM SBC whether you use a switch or a direct 
connection. Now you've added another layer between the computer and the 
device.  Ever have a switch hiccup while nothing else in the network 
does?  Kinda tuff for a crossover patch cord to hiccup unless it's damaged.

Correct - not very much data is being passed around if it's only UDP.  
Toss in TCP to the mix, along with other stuff, and you can end up with 
a relatively busy network.  You do realize layer three switches route 
too, right?  Guaranteed slower to route that traffic than the traffic 
being done on the NIC.  Lookup table on a dual NIC is usually smaller 
than the one on the layer three switch.

Is the ethernet controlled by the RTOS for machine control?  If so, the 
mouse, keyboard and any other extraneous interrupts should be handled 
under that.

There's a reason for some of those "old wive's tales."  In this case, 
they are true.

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Chris Albertson]

I hate to say it but, a lot of old wives tales here.  What is the
latency added by a cut through switch?  It's the packet header length
divided by the Ethernet bit rate.   If you are worried about this kind
of stuff them you might as well start using shortened cables and wire
because of speed or light delays of one foot per nanosecond.The
switch latency translated into movement of the mill comes out to
micrometers or nanometers.

If you are worried about a switch, then you really need to worry about
what is on the back side of the Ethernet port on an ARM SBC like the
Pi.   The USB system and the Ethernet are sharing a serial bus.   So
Ethernet and all the USB ports share bandwidth. Even  with a second
ethernet port your UDP packets get queued and have to wait for buss
access.   You r keyboard, mouse, web surfing packets and UDP data
going to the mill are all on that same bus.  This s a much bigger deal
and there is no way around it

But you know what?   The amount of data being send is not very much
and it works just fine.

Next question yo have two network ports, now the software has to look
up which port to send each packet, there is now a routing problem the
software networking stack has to deal with.  Does this added lookup
add more time and latency?  Of course, typically routing is about 10x
slower then switching.



On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Mark  wrote:
> On 10/25/2016 12:16 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> True dat.  But why take the chance and not use a direct connection with
>>> a cross-over cable?  Typical UDP traffic in a switched LAN is fairly
>>> fast but not necessarily totally reliable.  And over the years I've seen
>>> plenty of collisions on a switched network for both TCP and UDP.  The
>>> difference being TCP has error correction and will resend the packet.
>> The most usual in real time systems is packets are sent periodically and 
>> receiver know it will receive packets. If bandwidth should be used to the 
>> limit UDP is a better choice but with plenty of bandwidth left over TCP 
>> might be a better choice.
>>
>> Then I do real time systems usually I tolerate some lost packets. Usually 
>> the old value is not useful then new value is received but if there is 
>> enough time request resend would be good.
>>
>>
>> I guess the answer is it depend on available bandwidth and delay. You also 
>> need a mechanism to queue up old data no more needed.
>>
>> In real time systems a queue is usually not good because if there is not 
>> enough time it will start grow. If newest available data is used perfomance 
>> may degrade but software will continue to run.
>>
>>
>> Nicklas Karlsson
> Under UDP, the receiver will receive packets, however under the protocol
> it doesn't know if it receives "all" the packets.  UDP is kind of a send
> and forget protocol.  If you want to make sure that all packets are
> received, the only way to go is TCP.  UDP uses less bandwidth than TCP,
> though in reality the difference is quite small.
>
> A queue is not real time.  Real time is *now* not when the queue decides
> to send.  Losing packets in a critical environment is not a good thing.
> Let's suppose a limit is hit and the controller calls for a stop in one
> packet.  Oops, that packet got dropped.  And the machine bangs into the
> physical stops.  Not a good thing.  If you are going to use UDP for
> critical situations, you're best off using a direct connect, getting rid
> of the latency of the LAN and talking directly to the Mesa card.
>
> Mark
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Marius Liebenberg]

I take it that the PID values that where calculated will be seen in 
halshow for that PID? One can then use those in the normal PID setup.

-- Original Message --
From: "Nicklas Karlsson" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2016-10-25 17:58:00
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back 
end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.


-- Original Message --
From: "Kirk Wallace" 
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: 2016-10-25 18:46:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>On 10/24/2016 11:16 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>
>This sounds similar to a setup with a linear scale used as feedback as
>opposed to a rotary encoder on the motor. This configuration usually 
>has
>a lot of backlash between the motor position (command input) and the
>scale (feedback). When a command is invoked it can take quite a while
>for the feedback to show up. This makes the control loop unstable
>because corrections always come too late. I would connect HALscope to
>check the delay between the loop command and feedback. Ideally, 
>feedback
>should start coming in on the next servo period after a command.
>
>
>--
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>http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
>http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
>
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> A queue is not real time.  Real time is *now* not when the queue decides 
> to send.  Losing packets in a critical environment is not a good thing.  

Real time is usually within a certain time span, for example buffer half full 
so it must be emptied before full.

> Let's suppose a limit is hit and the controller calls for a stop in one 
> packet.  Oops, that packet got dropped.  And the machine bangs into the 
> physical stops.  Not a good thing. ...

In a critical system stop happen if packet is not received. Usually I send data 
periodically, have a watchdog and some missed packets are allowed.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Marius Liebenberg]

  I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

Because collisions do happen on modern switches, and using UDP with no 
error correction in the protocol would cause those packets involved in a 
collision to be dropped. Switches are another layer of complexity, 
latency and expense when a dual port NIC is the cheapest and most 
reliable way to go if you need to really be sure a UDP packet makes it 
to it's intended destination with no problems, and has it's own 
bandwidth not being chugged down by other network communications and are 
using a dedicated line from the NIC to the device.

Mark

On 10/25/2016 12:56 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> My guess is that people are reading 20 year old information, using two
> ports and
> sure enough it works just fine.  So they claim "I used two ports and it 
> worked"
> so the next person does the same and no one thinks about "why".
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky  
> wrote:
>> Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
>> collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of them
>> now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.


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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/25/2016 12:52 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> Are you still certain you need two Ethernet ports?   I can't see why
> you need two on a modern switched network.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:05 PM, Mark Johnsen  wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>>> 1. someone said the 7i92H needs its own dedicated ethernet port,
>>> presumably because udp patckets are not subject to any attempts at error
>>> correction resends if other traffic walks on a udp packet.
>>>

Because you really don't want to run critical stuff through a switch 
using UDP.  Much better, safer, and more assured of the packet arriving 
a the destination by using a direct connect with a crossover cable 
between the NIC and the Mesa card.  No worries about network latencies, 
collisions and other problems between the computer and the device in 
question.


Mark


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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Chris Albertson]

My guess is that people are reading 20 year old information, using two
ports and
sure enough it works just fine.  So they claim "I used two ports and it worked"
so the next person does the same and no one thinks about "why".

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky  wrote:
> Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
> collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of them
> now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Monday 24 October 2016 22:05:47 Mark Johnsen wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>> > > Greetings guys; I hope everyone has arrived back home without
>> > > incidents involving bent sheet metal or worse.
>> > >
>> > > 1. someone said the 7i92H needs its own dedicated ethernet port,
>> > > presumably because udp patckets are not subject to any attempts at
>> > > error correction resends if other traffic walks on a udp packet.
>> > >
>> > > So that means I'd need to find an Orange Pi with 2 ethernet sockets
>> > > so two independant paths/addresses can be setup.
>> > >
>> > > None of these low power use cards have that, none that I've found
>> > > have a 2nd port.  Is this a case of just waiting till it does
>> > > happen?  Space considerations for the rj45 socket says it not going
>> > > to be at all likely.
>> > >
>> > > Comments anybody?
>> >
>> > You'd be right on the dual ethernet port option.  Most of the smaller
>> > boards only have one ethernet port, so you have 2 options (that I can
>> > think of).
>> >
>> > One is a USB to Ethernet adapter because those boards have a few USB
>> > ports, or add a USB hub to add more USB ports.
>> >
>> > Here's a USB to ethernet I found for $10:
>> > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ET4KHJ2/
>> >
>> > In theory that should work.
>>
>> I'll give it a shot. And get the orange pi on order in the morning.
>> Might need a shoehorn before I'm done...
>> >
>> > The other option might be wifi if the board has it built in.   But, if
>> > I recall, you had your systems hardwired, so I'd go for the USB to
>> > ethernet adapter.
>> >
>> > I did see some chinaco boards w/ dual ethernet, but too many unknowns
>> > to try to get those working.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> > --
>> > The Command Line: Reinvented for Modern Developers
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>>
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>> 
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/25/2016 12:16 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
>> True dat.  But why take the chance and not use a direct connection with
>> a cross-over cable?  Typical UDP traffic in a switched LAN is fairly
>> fast but not necessarily totally reliable.  And over the years I've seen
>> plenty of collisions on a switched network for both TCP and UDP.  The
>> difference being TCP has error correction and will resend the packet.
> The most usual in real time systems is packets are sent periodically and 
> receiver know it will receive packets. If bandwidth should be used to the 
> limit UDP is a better choice but with plenty of bandwidth left over TCP might 
> be a better choice.
>
> Then I do real time systems usually I tolerate some lost packets. Usually the 
> old value is not useful then new value is received but if there is enough 
> time request resend would be good.
>
>
> I guess the answer is it depend on available bandwidth and delay. You also 
> need a mechanism to queue up old data no more needed.
>
> In real time systems a queue is usually not good because if there is not 
> enough time it will start grow. If newest available data is used perfomance 
> may degrade but software will continue to run.
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
Under UDP, the receiver will receive packets, however under the protocol 
it doesn't know if it receives "all" the packets.  UDP is kind of a send 
and forget protocol.  If you want to make sure that all packets are 
received, the only way to go is TCP.  UDP uses less bandwidth than TCP, 
though in reality the difference is quite small.

A queue is not real time.  Real time is *now* not when the queue decides 
to send.  Losing packets in a critical environment is not a good thing.  
Let's suppose a limit is hit and the controller calls for a stop in one 
packet.  Oops, that packet got dropped.  And the machine bangs into the 
physical stops.  Not a good thing.  If you are going to use UDP for 
critical situations, you're best off using a direct connect, getting rid 
of the latency of the LAN and talking directly to the Mesa card.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Chris Albertson]

Are you still certain you need two Ethernet ports?   I can't see why
you need two on a modern switched network.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 7:05 PM, Mark Johnsen  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> 1. someone said the 7i92H needs its own dedicated ethernet port,
>> presumably because udp patckets are not subject to any attempts at error
>> correction resends if other traffic walks on a udp packet.
>>

-- 

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/24/2016 11:16 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
> with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working
> very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
> oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
> servo.

This sounds similar to a setup with a linear scale used as feedback as 
opposed to a rotary encoder on the motor. This configuration usually has 
a lot of backlash between the motor position (command input) and the 
scale (feedback). When a command is invoked it can take quite a while 
for the feedback to show up. This makes the control loop unstable 
because corrections always come too late. I would connect HALscope to 
check the delay between the loop command and feedback. Ideally, feedback 
should start coming in on the next servo period after a command.


-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> True dat.  But why take the chance and not use a direct connection with 
> a cross-over cable?  Typical UDP traffic in a switched LAN is fairly 
> fast but not necessarily totally reliable.  And over the years I've seen 
> plenty of collisions on a switched network for both TCP and UDP.  The 
> difference being TCP has error correction and will resend the packet. 

The most usual in real time systems is packets are sent periodically and 
receiver know it will receive packets. If bandwidth should be used to the limit 
UDP is a better choice but with plenty of bandwidth left over TCP might be a 
better choice.

Then I do real time systems usually I tolerate some lost packets. Usually the 
old value is not useful then new value is received but if there is enough time 
request resend would be good.


I guess the answer is it depend on available bandwidth and delay. You also need 
a mechanism to queue up old data no more needed.

In real time systems a queue is usually not good because if there is not enough 
time it will start grow. If newest available data is used perfomance may 
degrade but software will continue to run.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Did you try the tune mode?

It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. Manual 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further down on page 
"pid.N.tune-"





On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:

> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine 
> with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working 
> very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe 
> oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the 
> servo.
> 
> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
> the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary 
> gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> 
> The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. 
> Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and do 
> some I/O.
> 
> -
> Regards / Groete
> 
> Marius D. Liebenberg
> +27 82 698 3251
> +27 12 743 6064

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/25/2016 11:26 AM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky  
> wrote:
>> Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
>> collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of them
>> now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.
> Of course, but you are assuming an ideal active switch, and that may
> or may not be the case. All the switched ports are sitting on an
> internal bus, whose bandwidth has to be better than N/2*individual
> port bandwidth, because in principle, all port pairs could be active
> at the same time; on a cheap switch that 'bisection' bandwidth may not
> quite be there.  Also, in general, two originators could be trying to
> talk to the same receiving port and collide on it---switches of course
> must implement some form of  'store and forward' to be able to decide
> where to switch the packet to, but cheap switches do not have a deep
> store queue---maybe they can handle one or two packets but not more
> than that. So, in practice, the collisions and dropped packets are
> possible.


Yup.  Exactly.  Happens even on expensive Big Iron Cisco switches as 
well, though not as prevalent as on the cheaper switches.  Though even 
the cheap switches are much better than the old fashioned hubs.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 11:18 PM, Chris Albertson
 wrote:
> Let's say we have two computers and each is sending UDP packets to two
> different Mesa cards.   I can't see how those packets would ever be on
> the same physical cable, assuming a switched network.   Each computer
> has its own cable to the switch.  The switch will read the packets and
> place them on different outbound ports each with its own cable going
> to the different Mesa boards.The UDP packets can't collide

In theory, no. In practice, they all use the internal switch bus, and
you are depending on the implementation details of a random network
switch chip from a far-away country. Maybe they can switch fine on the
first simultaneous arrival but can't sustain repeated collisions, or
whatever. You just have to test it, and it's not quite easy-you'd have
to set up four (or 2*N) independent Ethernet stations with very
tightly coordinated on-wire packet streams.

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky  wrote:
> Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
> collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of them
> now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.

Of course, but you are assuming an ideal active switch, and that may
or may not be the case. All the switched ports are sitting on an
internal bus, whose bandwidth has to be better than N/2*individual
port bandwidth, because in principle, all port pairs could be active
at the same time; on a cheap switch that 'bisection' bandwidth may not
quite be there.  Also, in general, two originators could be trying to
talk to the same receiving port and collide on it---switches of course
must implement some form of  'store and forward' to be able to decide
where to switch the packet to, but cheap switches do not have a deep
store queue---maybe they can handle one or two packets but not more
than that. So, in practice, the collisions and dropped packets are
possible.

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Re: [Emc-users] Plasma Torch Height Control

[Alexander Brock]

On 09/10/2016 12:35 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> The cncprofi work very well and with no fuss. I used it many times.

I finally had time for my project again and I bought the cncprofi one. I
managed to connect it to the plasma and it seems to work (shows up and
down and it changes when I shout at the plasma operator that he should
lower / raise the torch :-)).
I tried to adapt a configuration used for a servo router but failed,
does anyone have a working configuration for a stepper router with a
plasma torch? IIRC I have LinuxCNC 2.7.0 but I'm willing to upgrade it
if necessary.

Best Regards,
Alexander



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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[dannym]

You'd have to write VHDL code, compile into a bitfile, and then just use the 
mesaflash command-line to upload to the card.

Danny

 Les Newell  wrote: 
> I did wonder how expensive it is to write to the Mesa cards. I would 
> like to have a go at converting one of my lasers one day. However I have 
> a mill and router that need retrofitting before I look at any laser stuff.
> 
> Les
> 
> On 25/10/2016 13:25, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > About 4-5kHz in a floating point base-thread was about as fast as I was 
> > able to get the read/writes for my Mesa 5i25/7i77 combo to run at.  There 
> > might be tricks to get it a little faster but I doubt there is a lot more 
> > to be gained with that combo.  Smart serial communication seemed to be the 
> > limiting factor.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "andy pugh" 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 6:30:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?
> >
> > On 25 October 2016 at 09:48, Les Newell  wrote:
> >> Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component can't
> >> run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have hardware PWM (e.g
> >> Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good resolution.
> > Generally the Mesa update functions run in the servo thread because
> > there is a fair bit of floating-point maths involved in PWM duty cycle
> > calculations.
> > It is possible to enable floating-point in a base thread, but I
> > suspect that the Mesa update function might be a bit "expensive" to
> > run at 10kHz.
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

The ratio is 40:1. If I make the pulses per rev very high the system 
becomes stable but the calibration is out off course. This supports your 
idea I think if I understand you correctly.

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2016-10-25 14:01:06
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>On 25 October 2016 at 07:16, Marius Liebenberg  
>wrote:
>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
>>the
>>  stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary 
>>gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files.
>
>What is the ratio of the gearbox?
>
>I think I would expect much smaller gains for a rotary than for a
>linear with the same servo.
>Simplistically, one full revolution out-of-position for the linear
>axis might be 2mm, but one full motor-rev out-of-position for the
>rotary is 36 degrees with a 10:1 gearbox.
>
>That is about a 20x difference, and I would anticipate a 20:1 ratio in
>PID gains to match.
>
>--
>atp
>"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>lunatics."
>— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/25/2016 10:18 AM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> Im fully aware UDP doesn't resend.  But there are no collisions on modern
> ethernet LANs.  No more reason a UDP packet would be corrupted going
> through a (shared) switch as a direct connection.

True dat.  But why take the chance and not use a direct connection with 
a cross-over cable?  Typical UDP traffic in a switched LAN is fairly 
fast but not necessarily totally reliable.  And over the years I've seen 
plenty of collisions on a switched network for both TCP and UDP.  The 
difference being TCP has error correction and will resend the packet.  
The direct connection between the NIC and the Mesa port is a lot better 
and doesn't have the overhead latency of running through the switch.  
For real time signaling you'd want the least amount of latency and any 
possibility of collisions averted. No reason to run it through a switch 
unless you are planning on running multiple machines from a single 
computer, which seems unlikely.  If you need an additional network 
connection for file transfer and the like, add a NIC or use wireless.  
Leave the dedicated machine controller port and connection to machine 
control and put nothing else in between.  A dropped packet from a 
machine control command is a lot worse than a dropped packet from normal 
machine to machine communication.

Mark

Unix System and Network admin for almost 30 years

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Stephen Dubovsky]

Im fully aware UDP doesn't resend.  But there are no collisions on modern
ethernet LANs.  No more reason a UDP packet would be corrupted going
through a (shared) switch as a direct connection.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Mark  wrote:

> On 10/24/2016 10:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> > Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
> > collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of
> them
> > now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.
>
> UDP won't, and can't do resends.  Unlike TCP there is no error
> correction present in UDP.  When using the UDP protocol it assumes that
> everything goes through perfectly.  Which allows it a lot less overhead
> than TCP.
>
> Mark
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[Les Newell]

I did wonder how expensive it is to write to the Mesa cards. I would 
like to have a go at converting one of my lasers one day. However I have 
a mill and router that need retrofitting before I look at any laser stuff.

Les

On 25/10/2016 13:25, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> About 4-5kHz in a floating point base-thread was about as fast as I was able 
> to get the read/writes for my Mesa 5i25/7i77 combo to run at.  There might be 
> tricks to get it a little faster but I doubt there is a lot more to be gained 
> with that combo.  Smart serial communication seemed to be the limiting factor.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "andy pugh" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 6:30:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?
>
> On 25 October 2016 at 09:48, Les Newell  wrote:
>> Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component can't
>> run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have hardware PWM (e.g
>> Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good resolution.
> Generally the Mesa update functions run in the servo thread because
> there is a fair bit of floating-point maths involved in PWM duty cycle
> calculations.
> It is possible to enable floating-point in a base thread, but I
> suspect that the Mesa update function might be a bit "expensive" to
> run at 10kHz.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 25 October 2016 08:25:14 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> About 4-5kHz in a floating point base-thread was about as fast as I
> was able to get the read/writes for my Mesa 5i25/7i77 combo to run at.
>  There might be tricks to get it a little faster but I doubt there is
> a lot more to be gained with that combo.  Smart serial communication
> seemed to be the limiting factor.

On a 5i25, on a dual core @1.4Ghz atom powered D525MW mobo, 4 kilohertz 
was making the rest of the machine a bit sleepy.

On an:

Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU  6600 @ 2.40GHz
with a 5i25 in it, 4 kilohertz didn't phase the rest of the machine.

> - Original Message -
> From: "andy pugh" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>  Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016
> 6:30:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?
>
> On 25 October 2016 at 09:48, Les Newell  
wrote:
> > Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component
> > can't run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have
> > hardware PWM (e.g Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good
> > resolution.
>
> Generally the Mesa update functions run in the servo thread because
> there is a fair bit of floating-point maths involved in PWM duty cycle
> calculations.
> It is possible to enable floating-point in a base thread, but I
> suspect that the Mesa update function might be a bit "expensive" to
> run at 10kHz.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[Todd Zuercher]

About 4-5kHz in a floating point base-thread was about as fast as I was able to 
get the read/writes for my Mesa 5i25/7i77 combo to run at.  There might be 
tricks to get it a little faster but I doubt there is a lot more to be gained 
with that combo.  Smart serial communication seemed to be the limiting factor.

- Original Message -
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 6:30:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

On 25 October 2016 at 09:48, Les Newell  wrote:
>
> Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component can't
> run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have hardware PWM (e.g
> Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good resolution.

Generally the Mesa update functions run in the servo thread because
there is a fair bit of floating-point maths involved in PWM duty cycle
calculations.
It is possible to enable floating-point in a base thread, but I
suspect that the Mesa update function might be a bit "expensive" to
run at 10kHz.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] following along in my what if musings about ther new oramge pi 2e

[Mark]

On 10/24/2016 10:42 PM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> Why would UDP need resends on a shared ethernet port?  There are no
> collisions on a full-duplex port & switch (which is pretty much ALL of them
> now-a-days.)  Passive hubs went the way of the dodo.

UDP won't, and can't do resends.  Unlike TCP there is no error 
correction present in UDP.  When using the UDP protocol it assumes that 
everything goes through perfectly.  Which allows it a lot less overhead 
than TCP.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit? -->NML

[W. Martinjak]

On 2016-10-25 12:34, andy pugh wrote:
> On 24 October 2016 at 23:01, Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote:
>>> I don't _think_ that Machinekit has NML any more. I think it has all
>>> been replaced by something else (0mq possibly)
>> I believe Machinekit still uses NML in exactly the same way that
>> LinuxCNC does.
> I suppose I should have checked first. It does seem to be there:
> https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/tree/master/src/libnml
>
> I thought part of the point of Machinekit was to get rid of NML. But
> clearly I was wrong.
>


Hehe..., its a eternal cycle.

I suggested this here: (it's hard to read due to the lack of nice quoting in 
sourceforge)
https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/32044584/

and then it reappears after the fork:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/machinekit/SMdbuf4b5LI/WVNi0fKP--0J
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/machinekit/SMdbuf4b5LI/qsPmahUw_KwJ

(I'm XL600)

the same procedure every  :)

-- 
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nur ihre Gegner sterben nach und nach"

Max Planck


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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[andy pugh]

On 25 October 2016 at 07:16, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:

> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed the
> stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files.

What is the ratio of the gearbox?

I think I would expect much smaller gains for a rotary than for a
linear with the same servo.
Simplistically, one full revolution out-of-position for the linear
axis might be 2mm, but one full motor-rev out-of-position for the
rotary is 36 degrees with a 10:1 gearbox.

That is about a 20x difference, and I would anticipate a 20:1 ratio in
PID gains to match.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Changing rapid traverse rate at run-time

[andy pugh]

On 25 October 2016 at 10:09, Alexander Rössler  wrote:
> Is there a way to change the rapid traverse rate (G0) ate run-time?
> Preferably without touching NML...

Not in Auto mode, I don't think, but there are
ini.joint.N.max-velocity and ini.axis.L.max-velocity pins.

But why would the max velocity change at run-time? Why not use
different G1 feeds for your application?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Rene
I am using the standard analog servo channel on the 7i37 with an encoder 
feedback that comes from the servo drive.

-- Original Message --
From: "Rene Hopf" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: 2016-10-25 12:19:49
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>Hi,
>First thing I notice, you dont have any ff term. I guess you have ho 
>external current or velocity regulator, just a position pid outputting 
>voltage via pwm?
>That is not really the best setup, but still should be possible to 
>tune…
>
>Rene
>
>>  On 25 Oct 2016, at 08:16, Marius Liebenberg  
>>wrote:
>>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine 
>>with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a 
>>severe oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to 
>>stabilize the servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
>>the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. 
>>Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
>>  >Attachment.png><5i23_router.ini><5i23_router_4th.hal>--
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit? -->NML

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I have no idea who or why machinekit was forked. Usually if or then I
contribute something to open source it is something I want for myself and I
guess it is similar for most, discussions to make it fit with other parts
or solutions is usually part of this.

2016-10-25 12:34 GMT+02:00 andy pugh :

> On 24 October 2016 at 23:01, Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote:
> >> I don't _think_ that Machinekit has NML any more. I think it has all
> >> been replaced by something else (0mq possibly)
> >
> > I believe Machinekit still uses NML in exactly the same way that
> > LinuxCNC does.
>
> I suppose I should have checked first. It does seem to be there:
> https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/tree/master/src/libnml
>
> I thought part of the point of Machinekit was to get rid of NML. But
> clearly I was wrong.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit? --> LinuxCNC computer

[andy pugh]

On 25 October 2016 at 04:09, Danny Miller  wrote:
>
> Second, I ended up with the NPN proximity sensors shown here on the top
> left:
>
> https://oceancontrols.com.au/IBS-0051.html
>
> Those are insidiously awkward to interface,

Why? You feed them with 24V for power, and their output is a
switch-to-gnd which can go straight to parallel port or Mesa-card
input (or any other input with a pull-up)

PNP is troublesome, but NPN is easy.
-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit? -->NML

[andy pugh]

On 24 October 2016 at 23:01, Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote:
>> I don't _think_ that Machinekit has NML any more. I think it has all
>> been replaced by something else (0mq possibly)
>
> I believe Machinekit still uses NML in exactly the same way that
> LinuxCNC does.

I suppose I should have checked first. It does seem to be there:
https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/tree/master/src/libnml

I thought part of the point of Machinekit was to get rid of NML. But
clearly I was wrong.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[andy pugh]

On 25 October 2016 at 09:48, Les Newell  wrote:
>
> Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component can't
> run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have hardware PWM (e.g
> Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good resolution.

Generally the Mesa update functions run in the servo thread because
there is a fair bit of floating-point maths involved in PWM duty cycle
calculations.
It is possible to enable floating-point in a base thread, but I
suspect that the Mesa update function might be a bit "expensive" to
run at 10kHz.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Rene Hopf]

Hi,
First thing I notice, you dont have any ff term. I guess you have ho external 
current or velocity regulator, just a position pid outputting voltage via pwm?
That is not really the best setup, but still should be possible to tune…

Rene

> On 25 Oct 2016, at 08:16, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine with the 
> 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working very well but 
> the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe oscillation and I 
> cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the servo.
> 
> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed the 
> stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> 
> The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. Remaining 
> ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and do some I/O.
> 
> -
> Regards / Groete
> 
> Marius D. Liebenberg
> +27 82 698 3251
> +27 12 743 6064
>  Attachment.png><5i23_router.ini><5i23_router_4th.hal>--
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[Emc-users] Changing rapid traverse rate at run-time

[Alexander Rössler]

Is there a way to change the rapid traverse rate (G0) ate run-time? 
Preferably without touching NML...

Thanks,
Alexander

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC laser cutter?

[Les Newell]

On 24/10/2016 22:25, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> So there is another mode I didn't mention.  When accelerating or 
> decelerating, you're not at the specified cut speed, and the laser power must 
> be reduced proportional to the speed.
>

A better way to solve this problem when raster engraving is to have 'run 
up' and 'run down' areas outside the raster image area so the cutter is 
up to speed before it starts cutting. However for vector engraving 
varying the power proportional to speed is useful.

Is there any reason why the realtime part of the raster component can't 
run in a faster thread, say 10kHz? As long as you have hardware PWM (e.g 
Mesa FPGA) you should be able to get pretty good resolution. For fine 
detail engraving using sub dot-size resolution makes a noticeable 
difference so I think for best results you are going to need more than 4kHz.

Just to complicate the timing issues many lasers work better with 
'tickle' pulses when they are off. Basically you use short PWM pulses at 
a lower frequency just to keep the gas ionized but not with enough power 
to lase. This speeds up turn-on.

Les

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Re: [Emc-users] Cheap BOB hacks. Re: Machinekit? --> LinuxCNC computer

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 24 October 2016 22:42:31 Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> How about some pics of that modification?

You wouldn't see much, Gregg, that $9 (ebay) bob used individual 4 pin 
opto's, so I had axis start the spindle, used a scope to locate which 
one was carrying the pulse, removed it and put a 3/8" long wrapping wire 
jumper to take the signal across it. Spindle speed linearity went to a 
good straight line from something not even lincurve could correct.  ATM 
that one is moderately well buried under all the other wiring in the 
power box for the G0704. I'll take the camera out and see if I can see 
the missing opto and the jumper replacing it.

So I have specifically bought non-opto-isolated boards since, but the 
version I'm useing in the lathe build was made for mach ( their odd crap 
has flooded the low end market ) and so far I have found 2 input pins I 
can't use as mach dedicated them for estop & something else I've forgot.

Further testing needed.  Apparently mach has never done any of the 
spindle synchronized moves as these have no pins labled for a/b/z 
encoder input use.  Lathes aren't so complex I can't work around it, but 
I did mount both of the ones I bought so I can use the other, P2 half of 
the 5i25 if I need it. Home & limit switches sort of stuff.

Lots to do yet. The saddle design is such that I've almost got to put the 
cable chain to all the x related stuff on the front, or lay some SS 
pipes where they could be crushed by running into the tailstock across 
the top and right edge. Humm, thinking out loud, portable limit switch?  
Might be one way around that potential show stopper.

Back to see if I can get some zz's in.

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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