Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 15 March 2016 12:16:50 Kirk Wallace wrote:

> On 03/15/2016 12:28 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> ... snip
>
> > What type of interface Kirk?
>
> A Pico Sys +10 V analog output. I keep thinking it's PWM but it's not.
> It uses a DAC.
>
> > I intend to use a pwmgen, which would update its analog equ at the
> > servo rate, normally at 1 KHz.  If thats a problem, coming out from
> > zero radius where the first 1/8 would be a pretty large & fast
> > slowdown, I think I would look at it as a windup in the PID caused
> > by the 2500 rev limit, and would try to apply the usual suspects
> > fixes for a windup condition.  I've had symptoms of that show up in
> > my testing speed changes while looking for the best pid response,
> > and had to reduce the IGain if the speed chnage commands were too
> > close together in time.
>
> ... snip
>
> I don't recall running my speed commands though a PID. CSS has a
> maximum RPM setting which I had to turn down to about 800 RPM to avoid
> errors before getting the dynamic braking working. A simple MDI or
> g-code command from 2500 RPM to 300 worked fine and at the VFD's decel
> setting. I'm guessing that a step from 2500 RPM to 300 RPM is handled
> differently from having CSS go from a small radius to a large one. My
> guess was that the difference was the constant stream of speed
> commands, but the output stream is constant all of the time anyway,
> which shoots holes in my guess. The VFD may have a noise filter on the
> analog input that makes the difference.

I hadn't thought of that but it could be a possibility.

Not using a PID... That says you don't have an encoder on it either I 
guess.  I only have one machine without an encoder, the toy mill with 
its 200 watt motor, but its motor controller is still very stiff.  I 
enhance the stop with a resistor to dump the motor into, so stop times 
are in the 1-1.5 second range, but starts, even to max of 2500, are well 
below 1 second.  And no encoder, just the back emf.  I blew so many 
fuses because I had no clue the motor was working that hard so I cobbled 
up an ammeter which usually gives me enough warning to save the fuse.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Kirk Wallace]

On 03/15/2016 12:28 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

... snip

> What type of interface Kirk?

A Pico Sys +10 V analog output. I keep thinking it's PWM but it's not. 
It uses a DAC.


> I intend to use a pwmgen, which would update its analog equ at the
> servo rate, normally at 1 KHz.  If thats a problem, coming out from
> zero radius where the first 1/8 would be a pretty large & fast
> slowdown, I think I would look at it as a windup in the PID caused
> by the 2500 rev limit, and would try to apply the usual suspects
> fixes for a windup condition.  I've had symptoms of that show up in
> my testing speed changes while looking for the best pid response,
> and had to reduce the IGain if the speed chnage commands were too
> close together in time.

... snip

I don't recall running my speed commands though a PID. CSS has a maximum
RPM setting which I had to turn down to about 800 RPM to avoid errors
before getting the dynamic braking working. A simple MDI or g-code
command from 2500 RPM to 300 worked fine and at the VFD's decel setting.
I'm guessing that a step from 2500 RPM to 300 RPM is handled differently
from having CSS go from a small radius to a large one. My guess was that
the difference was the constant stream of speed commands, but the
output stream is constant all of the time anyway, which shoots holes in
my guess. The VFD may have a noise filter on the analog input that makes
the difference.



-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 15 March 2016 01:58:05 Kirk Wallace wrote:

> On 03/14/2016 03:55 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 14 March 2016 18:08:48 andy pugh wrote:
> >> On 14 March 2016 at 21:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>  Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any
>  braking relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.
> >>>
> >>> The only relay present on the control board is apparently the
> >>> external reverse signal. There is a page in the parameter menu
> >>> that can switch that around some.
> >>
> >> Can I re-phrase the question with the word I meant to type?
> >>
> >> Have you tried reversing without the _resistor_
> >
> > That is what I was trying to describe Andy, and I can reverse it
> > from 6k rpms fwd to 6k rpms in reverse and back in 1 second total
> > each way.  No hits, no runs, and NO errors.  I'll try it in even
> > less time tomorrow. Once, from 100 rpms. it was so violent it
> > uncrewed the collet nut!
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> I didn't realize my dynamic braking wasn't working until I tried using
> CSS (constant surface speed, G96,
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/g-code.html#gcode:g96-g97 )
> with my lathe. If your lathe can do CSS, you might want to include
> this in your testing. My lathe was over-volting on a rapid move from 0
> radius (CSS set to 2500 RPM max.) to a 1 inch radius (a few hundred
> RPM) during a facing routine. It seems that my VFD doesn't honor its
> deceleration ramp register settings because the CSS deceleration is a
> bunch of speed commands (, at the servo rate?, ) from LinuxCNC rather
> than a single command to a new RPM which G97 RPM mode would use.

What type of interface Kirk?  I intend to use a pwmgen, which would 
update its analog equ at the servo rate, normally at 1 KHz.  If thats a 
problem, coming out from zero radius where the first 1/8 would be a 
pretty large & fast slowdown, I think I would look at it as a windup in 
the PID caused by the 2500 rev limit, and would try to apply the usual 
suspects fixes for a windup condition.  I've had symptoms of that show 
up in my testing speed changes while looking for the best pid response, 
and had to reduce the IGain if the speed chnage commands were too close 
together in time.

FWIW, at one point, experimentaly, I ran the servo thread at 4kilohertz 
on my toy (7x12) lathe, which stabilized it quite a bit, but it also 
made that D525MW motherboard work pretty hard. I did finally wind up 
back at 1KHz with some pid settings that were to me, pretty phenominally 
stiff.  That was after I had cobbled up the hal stuff to use the 
weighted average of the last 4 encoder edges going by, cutting the 
cyclic encoder noise by a /4 factor.  That helped considerably, so when 
I was configuring the .hal on the mill, I imported that glop of code and 
re-used it.

The only time I've noted the mill slowing due to load was when trying to 
tap a 10mm hole with a g33.1 wrapped in a peck cycle.  But to do that 
safely, I have got to figure out a way to get a better grip in the tap 
shank, it was slipping even with a 10" handle extension on the chuck key 
handle!  But nobody seems to make one with a square drive.  Theres a 
different std drive square size for every tap & no two tap makers use 
the same table.

Another potential fix might be to use a lower maxvel for the x, its total 
range might be only 15% of the z travel. I've used css, but usually in 
terms of turning, as opposed to faceing.

I find it isn't as easy to calibrate & use well unless the tool table is 
very accurate, something mine is not due to a lack of sufficient qc tool 
holders.  Thats my fault of course and I get a couple more everytime I 
order parts from Larry, but I don't have half enough of those yet.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Kirk Wallace]

On 03/14/2016 03:55 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 14 March 2016 18:08:48 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 14 March 2016 at 21:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
 Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any
 braking relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.
>>>
>>> The only relay present on the control board is apparently the
>>> external reverse signal. There is a page in the parameter menu that
>>> can switch that around some.
>>
>> Can I re-phrase the question with the word I meant to type?
>>
>> Have you tried reversing without the _resistor_
>
> That is what I was trying to describe Andy, and I can reverse it from 6k
> rpms fwd to 6k rpms in reverse and back in 1 second total each way.  No
> hits, no runs, and NO errors.  I'll try it in even less time tomorrow.
> Once, from 100 rpms. it was so violent it uncrewed the collet nut!
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>

I didn't realize my dynamic braking wasn't working until I tried using 
CSS (constant surface speed, G96,
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/g-code.html#gcode:g96-g97 ) with 
my lathe. If your lathe can do CSS, you might want to include this in 
your testing. My lathe was over-volting on a rapid move from 0 radius 
(CSS set to 2500 RPM max.) to a 1 inch radius (a few hundred RPM) during 
a facing routine. It seems that my VFD doesn't honor its deceleration 
ramp register settings because the CSS deceleration is a bunch of speed 
commands (, at the servo rate?, ) from LinuxCNC rather than a single 
command to a new RPM which G97 RPM mode would use.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 14 March 2016 18:08:48 andy pugh wrote:

> On 14 March 2016 at 21:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any
> >> braking relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.
> >
> > The only relay present on the control board is apparently the
> > external reverse signal. There is a page in the parameter menu that
> > can switch that around some.
>
> Can I re-phrase the question with the word I meant to type?
>
> Have you tried reversing without the _resistor_

That is what I was trying to describe Andy, and I can reverse it from 6k 
rpms fwd to 6k rpms in reverse and back in 1 second total each way.  No 
hits, no runs, and NO errors.  I'll try it in even less time tomorrow.  
Once, from 100 rpms. it was so violent it uncrewed the collet nut!

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[andy pugh]

On 14 March 2016 at 21:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any braking
>> relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.
>
> The only relay present on the control board is apparently the external
> reverse signal. There is a page in the parameter menu that can switch
> that around some.


Can I re-phrase the question with the word I meant to type?

Have you tried reversing without the _resistor_

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 14 March 2016 16:33:54 andy pugh wrote:

> On 14 March 2016 at 18:19, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > I have not noted seeing those warnings,
>
> This ad shows the comparision:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-220-250V-3HP-10A-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DR
>IVE-INVERTER-VFD-SPEED-CONTROL-CE-/252003458616?hash=item3aac939e38:g:U
>TEAAOSwLVZVwbcm
>
> > in any event I will buy another that does have a resistor hookup
> > available.
>
> Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any braking
> relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.

The only relay present on the control board is apparently the external 
reverse signal. There is a page in the parameter menu that can switch 
that around some.

That front panel in the EXOROR manual bears only a style resemblance to 
that front panel, but the booklet that came with it seems to work 
exactly, so its relatively easy to locate a parameter and change it.  
See below the next paragraph for a question that Peter or John T. might 
be able to asnwer.

Now, I may have changed my mind about it, I just now had it running at 
100hz/6000 revs, and with a .5 second accel time set, and a .5 second 
decel time set, then hit the run button, and its 6000 grand right now, 
hit the fwd/rev button and its within or right on, that 1 second total 
to reverse itself, violent enough it unscrewed the collet nut several 
turns.  But I've got a bunch of guys in the basement, installing wall 4" 
I beam wall braces on the front wall, and digging a ditch nearly to the 
footer for a water drainage lashup.  So with all the extra getting 
around, I'm ready to pronounce that its beer thirty and I'm my usual one 
behind.

Now, this thing can talk over a serial port, and it may be able to change 
parameters on the fly.  But ATM I don't think I have a seriel port 
without adding a card.  So, is there a way I can excise the spindle 
controls I do now, in favor of shipping the data back and forth over a 
serial port, using a few pins on the 26 pin idc header on a 5i25?

What I'd have in mind is finding out what it can do at the bottom of the 
speed range, and what sort of a scale to send it to give it more time if 
I'm going to ask for the higher speeds, setting up something that 
amounts to if its 100 hz faster, gets double the time it needs at 50 hz.  
Yadda tadda.  ditto for stop times, making it do what it can do for 
turnaround times w/o tripping itself off at any speed.

I don't know what it will ultimately do, but so far I haven't caused a 
trip-off with my playing from its control panel.  And I have managed to 
get it to reverse in what I'd have to say is a timely, usable manner. 

The only error I've seen is a UV error, for about 20 seconds after I 
killed the breaker.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[andy pugh]

On 14 March 2016 at 18:19, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> I have not noted seeing those warnings,

This ad shows the comparision:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-220-250V-3HP-10A-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-SPEED-CONTROL-CE-/252003458616?hash=item3aac939e38:g:UTEAAOSwLVZVwbcm

> in any event I will buy another that does have a resistor hookup available.

Have you tried reversing without the relay? I don't have any braking
relays and my spindles all stop adequately quickly.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 14 March 2016 13:14:20 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> That part number is specifically listed on page 6 of the manual.  The
> terminal diagrams don't list every part number, but use ranges of
> numbers and your part number should have been induced in the range for
> the the first terminal diagram.  But none of that matters if your
> drive is different and only has 7 screw terminals instead of the
> normal 9 or 10.

Yup, 7 is all there is.

> A number of ebay adds for Huanyang VFDs warn about 
> counterfeit copies for sale, perhaps yours is one of the knock-offs.

I have not noted seeing those warnings, in any event I will buy another 
that does have a resistor hookup available.  This one works, and would 
work well indeed on someones wood carving gantry. As I said last night, 
the first pix on Ben on green government paper + ship (its not very 
heavy)  will own this one.

No sense of it going to waste even if I can't use it.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 11:47:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1
>
> On Monday 14 March 2016 11:02:44 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > According to this doc. for that drive.
> > http://www.exoror.com/datasheet/VFD.pdf
> > Page 10-11 there should be screw terminals labeled P+ and Pr that
> > are for connecting the braking resistor.  (They should be the 2 on
> > the end just right of the motor outputs.) This is assuming the
> > documentation is correct for that drive, which is sometimes a big
> > assumption.
>
> In this case yes, I have terminals for L0,L1,L2, GND, and UVW for the
> motor.  Thats it, as I have been saying.
>
> This is an HY01D523B, a number that is not in the list of coverage
> that manual shows.
>
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:26:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1
> >
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:
> > > Which VFD is this?
> > >
> > > Danny
> >
> > A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims
> > it is a:
> >
> > HY01D523B
> > With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency
> > 40-60 hertz, power at 1.5kw.
> > The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz
> >
> > But the booklet in the box claims its an:
> >
> > ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as
> > the pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this
> > unit does not have.
> >
> > Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model
> > number, and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its
> > rated at 2Kw, and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer
> > interface according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30.
> > Essentially the same as I paid for this one.
> >
> > Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about
> > what I buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would
> > be right at home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first
> > picture of Ben (on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I
> > paid about $160 for this one.
> >
> > Thanks everybody.
> >
> > > On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> > > >> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> > > >>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
> > > >>>> drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2
> > > >>>> and there are 12 different braking resistors.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an
> > > >>> extra, external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own
> > > >>> money on a tree in the back yard?
> > > >>
> > > >> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> > > >> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> > > >> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> > > >> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> > > >> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jon
> > > >
> > > > Well, 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Todd Zuercher]

That part number is specifically listed on page 6 of the manual.  The terminal 
diagrams don't list every part number, but use ranges of numbers and your part 
number should have been induced in the range for the the first terminal 
diagram.  But none of that matters if your drive is different and only has 7 
screw terminals instead of the normal 9 or 10.  A number of ebay adds for 
Huanyang VFDs warn about counterfeit copies for sale, perhaps yours is one of 
the knock-offs.   

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 11:47:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

On Monday 14 March 2016 11:02:44 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> According to this doc. for that drive.
> http://www.exoror.com/datasheet/VFD.pdf
> Page 10-11 there should be screw terminals labeled P+ and Pr that are
> for connecting the braking resistor.  (They should be the 2 on the end
> just right of the motor outputs.) This is assuming the documentation
> is correct for that drive, which is sometimes a big assumption.
>
In this case yes, I have terminals for L0,L1,L2, GND, and UVW for the 
motor.  Thats it, as I have been saying.

This is an HY01D523B, a number that is not in the list of coverage that 
manual shows.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:26:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1
>
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:
> > Which VFD is this?
> >
> > Danny
>
> A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims
> it is a:
>
> HY01D523B
> With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency
> 40-60 hertz, power at 1.5kw.
> The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz
>
> But the booklet in the box claims its an:
>
> ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as
> the pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this unit
> does not have.
>
> Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model
> number, and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its rated
> at 2Kw, and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer
> interface according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30. 
> Essentially the same as I paid for this one.
>
> Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about
> what I buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would be
> right at home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first
> picture of Ben (on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I
> paid about $160 for this one.
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
> > On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> > >> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> > >>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
> > >>>> drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and
> > >>>> there are 12 different braking resistors.
> > >>>
> > >>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> > >>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> > >>> tree in the back yard?
> > >>
> > >> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> > >> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> > >> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> > >> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> > >> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
> > >>
> > >> Jon
> > >
> > > Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking
> > > out screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something,
> > > and there aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only
> > > thing missing seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in
> > > the art work.  Every other hole in the boards has something in it.
> > > So I guess I tie the motor down with some clamps, and see how fast
> > > I can make it reverse from its own panel.
> > >
> > > I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and
> > > reverse outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to
> > > configure it, both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01
> > > seconds.
> > >
> > > Panel 15 while configuring it s

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Jon Elson]

On 03/13/2016 11:45 PM, Danny Miller wrote:
> There should be a "P" and "N" terminal.  THAT is the connection for the
> external braking resistor on your Huanyang.
>
> BTW, another point- I have seen (but not worked with) a "DC brake"
> feature on both my X200 and your Huanyang.
>
> I believe that's because regen braking becomes much less effective at
> low RPM.  It injects a DC current on the winding which causes
> considerable additional drag on the core at low RPM.  But, like I say, I
> haven't tried it out.  There are warnings about overheating the
> spindle's poles if the current is specified too high or for too long.
>
>
Right, both of my VFDs switch to DC braking at about 10% 
frequency setting, and that switchover point is an 
adjustable parameter.

Jon

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 14 March 2016 11:02:44 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> According to this doc. for that drive.
> http://www.exoror.com/datasheet/VFD.pdf
> Page 10-11 there should be screw terminals labeled P+ and Pr that are
> for connecting the braking resistor.  (They should be the 2 on the end
> just right of the motor outputs.) This is assuming the documentation
> is correct for that drive, which is sometimes a big assumption.
>
In this case yes, I have terminals for L0,L1,L2, GND, and UVW for the 
motor.  Thats it, as I have been saying.

This is an HY01D523B, a number that is not in the list of coverage that 
manual shows.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:26:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1
>
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:
> > Which VFD is this?
> >
> > Danny
>
> A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims
> it is a:
>
> HY01D523B
> With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency
> 40-60 hertz, power at 1.5kw.
> The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz
>
> But the booklet in the box claims its an:
>
> ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as
> the pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this unit
> does not have.
>
> Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model
> number, and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its rated
> at 2Kw, and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer
> interface according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30. 
> Essentially the same as I paid for this one.
>
> Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about
> what I buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would be
> right at home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first
> picture of Ben (on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I
> paid about $160 for this one.
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
> > On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> > >> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> > >>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
> > >>>> drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and
> > >>>> there are 12 different braking resistors.
> > >>>
> > >>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> > >>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> > >>> tree in the back yard?
> > >>
> > >> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> > >> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> > >> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> > >> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> > >> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
> > >>
> > >> Jon
> > >
> > > Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking
> > > out screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something,
> > > and there aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only
> > > thing missing seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in
> > > the art work.  Every other hole in the boards has something in it.
> > > So I guess I tie the motor down with some clamps, and see how fast
> > > I can make it reverse from its own panel.
> > >
> > > I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and
> > > reverse outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to
> > > configure it, both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01
> > > seconds.
> > >
> > > Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking
> > > voltage, can be set from 1 to 100 volts.
> > >
> > > Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from
> > > dead.
> > >
> > > Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.
> > >
> > > Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.
> > >
> > > Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different
> > > methods, I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from
> > > the 5i25, which I have been a ssured will work just fine.
> > >
> > > Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used t

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Todd Zuercher]

According to this doc. for that drive.
http://www.exoror.com/datasheet/VFD.pdf
Page 10-11 there should be screw terminals labeled P+ and Pr that are for 
connecting the braking resistor.  (They should be the 2 on the end just right 
of the motor outputs.)
This is assuming the documentation is correct for that drive, which is 
sometimes a big assumption.

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@wdtv.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 12:26:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:

> Which VFD is this?
>
> Danny
>
A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims it 
is a:

HY01D523B
With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency 40-60 
hertz, power at 1.5kw.
The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz

But the booklet in the box claims its an:

ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as the 
pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this unit does 
not have.

Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model number, 
and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its rated at 2Kw, 
and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer interface 
according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30.  Essentially the same 
as I paid for this one.

Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about what I 
buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would be right at 
home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first picture of Ben 
(on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I paid about $160 for 
this one.

Thanks everybody.

> On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> >>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
> >>>> drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and
> >>>> there are 12 different braking resistors.
> >>>
> >>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> >>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> >>> tree in the back yard?
> >>
> >> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> >> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> >> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> >> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> >> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking
> > out screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something,
> > and there aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only
> > thing missing seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in
> > the art work.  Every other hole in the boards has something in it. 
> > So I guess I tie the motor down with some clamps, and see how fast I
> > can make it reverse from its own panel.
> >
> > I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and reverse
> > outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to configure
> > it, both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01 seconds.
> >
> > Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking voltage,
> > can be set from 1 to 100 volts.
> >
> > Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from dead.
> >
> > Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.
> >
> > Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.
> >
> > Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different
> > methods, I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from
> > the 5i25, which I have been a ssured will work just fine.
> >
> > Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used to
> > counteract any non-linearities in the speed obtain vs commanded, 7
> > settings available there.
> >
> > Skipping ahead to Panel 29,30,31 which are labeled
> > 2nd accel time, 0.01 to 650 seconds
> > 2nd decel time, same range
> > 2nd decel stop frequency, .01 to 400 Hz, defining the output
> > frequency where it switches, Panel 8 & 9 settings are used above
> > this frequency, panel 29-30 used if below that frequency.
> >
> > On page 25 is a table of braking resistors, and that tables heading
> > says:
> >
> > There are internal regenerat brake resistance in this series
> > inverter from .75kw t

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

There should be a "P" and "N" terminal.  THAT is the connection for the 
external braking resistor on your Huanyang.

BTW, another point- I have seen (but not worked with) a "DC brake" 
feature on both my X200 and your Huanyang.

I believe that's because regen braking becomes much less effective at 
low RPM.  It injects a DC current on the winding which causes 
considerable additional drag on the core at low RPM.  But, like I say, I 
haven't tried it out.  There are warnings about overheating the 
spindle's poles if the current is specified too high or for too long.

Danny


On 3/13/2016 11:26 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:
>
>> Which VFD is this?
>>
>> Danny
>>
> A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims it
> is a:
>
> HY01D523B
> With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency 40-60
> hertz, power at 1.5kw.
> The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz
>
> But the booklet in the box claims its an:
>
> ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as the
> pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this unit does
> not have.
>
> Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model number,
> and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its rated at 2Kw,
> and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer interface
> according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30.  Essentially the same
> as I paid for this one.
>
> Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about what I
> buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would be right at
> home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first picture of Ben
> (on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I paid about $160 for
> this one.
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
 On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
>> drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and
>> there are 12 different braking resistors.
> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> tree in the back yard?
 MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
 block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
 So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
 braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
 the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.

 Jon
>>> Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking
>>> out screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something,
>>> and there aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only
>>> thing missing seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in
>>> the art work.  Every other hole in the boards has something in it.
>>> So I guess I tie the motor down with some clamps, and see how fast I
>>> can make it reverse from its own panel.
>>>
>>> I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and reverse
>>> outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to configure
>>> it, both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01 seconds.
>>>
>>> Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking voltage,
>>> can be set from 1 to 100 volts.
>>>
>>> Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from dead.
>>>
>>> Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.
>>>
>>> Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.
>>>
>>> Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different
>>> methods, I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from
>>> the 5i25, which I have been a ssured will work just fine.
>>>
>>> Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used to
>>> counteract any non-linearities in the speed obtain vs commanded, 7
>>> settings available there.
>>>
>>> Skipping ahead to Panel 29,30,31 which are labeled
>>> 2nd accel time, 0.01 to 650 seconds
>>> 2nd decel time, same range
>>> 2nd decel stop frequency, .01 to 400 Hz, defining the output
>>> frequency where it switches, Panel 8 & 9 settings are used above
>>> this frequency, panel 29-30 used if below that frequency.
>>>
>>> On page 25 is a table of braking resistors, and that tables heading
>>> says:
>>>
>>> There are internal regenerat brake resistance in this series
>>> inverter from .75kw to 30 kw.  If extra brake torque is needed,
>>> please wire proper brake resistance, which in the table for this
>>> size inverter, 1.5kw, is a 100 ohm 250 watter.
>>>
>>> And thats all it has to say about braking resistors, but the device
>>> hasn't any terminals labeled P or B to which it shows the optional
>>> braking resistor is wired to. Seems I ought to feed it from the 5i25
>>> just for S & G ...  

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 22:05:11 Danny Miller wrote:

> Which VFD is this?
>
> Danny
>
A blue label in a matching sized depression on the right side claims it 
is a:

HY01D523B
With the I/O (1 to 3 phase) voltage (180-250) ratings and Frequency 40-60 
hertz, power at 1.5kw.
The next line says output 3ph, 220 volt,10 amps, 0-400 Hz

But the booklet in the box claims its an:

ASKPOWER A131, and the pix looks almost but not exactly the same, as the 
pix has a pot to the right of the stop/reset button that this unit does 
not have.

Now, here's something interesting, I ebay searched for that model number, 
and came up with the exact same HY etc number.  But its rated at 2Kw, 
and _does_ have the resistor callouts on the customer interface 
according to the ebay pix! $129 + ship, about $30.  Essentially the same 
as I paid for this one.

Ok, so now I know they are available.  And I'm a bit smarter about what I 
buy next time.  So, this one, which seems to work and would be right at 
home on a gantry router, is officially for sale, first picture of Ben 
(on a $100 dollar bill + ship in my hand owns it.  I paid about $160 for 
this one.

Thanks everybody.

> On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> >> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>  I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all
>  drives would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and
>  there are 12 different braking resistors.
> >>>
> >>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> >>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> >>> tree in the back yard?
> >>
> >> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> >> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> >> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> >> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> >> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking
> > out screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something,
> > and there aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only
> > thing missing seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in
> > the art work.  Every other hole in the boards has something in it. 
> > So I guess I tie the motor down with some clamps, and see how fast I
> > can make it reverse from its own panel.
> >
> > I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and reverse
> > outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to configure
> > it, both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01 seconds.
> >
> > Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking voltage,
> > can be set from 1 to 100 volts.
> >
> > Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from dead.
> >
> > Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.
> >
> > Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.
> >
> > Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different
> > methods, I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from
> > the 5i25, which I have been a ssured will work just fine.
> >
> > Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used to
> > counteract any non-linearities in the speed obtain vs commanded, 7
> > settings available there.
> >
> > Skipping ahead to Panel 29,30,31 which are labeled
> > 2nd accel time, 0.01 to 650 seconds
> > 2nd decel time, same range
> > 2nd decel stop frequency, .01 to 400 Hz, defining the output
> > frequency where it switches, Panel 8 & 9 settings are used above
> > this frequency, panel 29-30 used if below that frequency.
> >
> > On page 25 is a table of braking resistors, and that tables heading
> > says:
> >
> > There are internal regenerat brake resistance in this series
> > inverter from .75kw to 30 kw.  If extra brake torque is needed,
> > please wire proper brake resistance, which in the table for this
> > size inverter, 1.5kw, is a 100 ohm 250 watter.
> >
> > And thats all it has to say about braking resistors, but the device
> > hasn't any terminals labeled P or B to which it shows the optional
> > braking resistor is wired to. Seems I ought to feed it from the 5i25
> > just for S & G ...  But I have some more work to do on the mill
> > before I tear that circuitry out & reroute to this thing so I can
> > play.
> >
> > Damn I hate it when the hardware and the docs aren't even in the
> > same country.
> >
> > Thanks, Jon, John & Danny, & anybony else that chimed in while I was
> > wrecking some mahogany by miss-reading the tape measure.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> Transform Data into Opportunity.
> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> Click to learn more.
> 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

Which VFD is this?

Danny

On 3/13/2016 8:52 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
 I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
 would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
 12 different braking resistors.
>>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
>>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
>>> tree in the back yard?
>> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
>> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
>> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
>> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
>> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
>>
>> Jon
>>
> Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking out
> screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something, and there
> aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only thing missing
> seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in the art work.  Every
> other hole in the boards has something in it.  So I guess I tie the
> motor down with some clamps, and see how fast I can make it reverse from
> its own panel.
>
> I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and reverse
> outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to configure it,
> both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01 seconds.
>
> Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking voltage, can
> be set from 1 to 100 volts.
>
> Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from dead.
>
> Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.
>
> Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.
>
> Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different methods,
> I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from the 5i25, which
> I have been a ssured will work just fine.
>
> Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used to
> counteract any non-linearities in the speed obtain vs commanded, 7
> settings available there.
>
> Skipping ahead to Panel 29,30,31 which are labeled
> 2nd accel time, 0.01 to 650 seconds
> 2nd decel time, same range
> 2nd decel stop frequency, .01 to 400 Hz, defining the output frequency
> where it switches, Panel 8 & 9 settings are used above this frequency,
> panel 29-30 used if below that frequency.
>
> On page 25 is a table of braking resistors, and that tables heading says:
>
> There are internal regenerat brake resistance in this series inverter
> from .75kw to 30 kw.  If extra brake torque is needed, please wire
> proper brake resistance, which in the table for this size inverter,
> 1.5kw, is a 100 ohm 250 watter.
>
> And thats all it has to say about braking resistors, but the device
> hasn't any terminals labeled P or B to which it shows the optional
> braking resistor is wired to. Seems I ought to feed it from the 5i25
> just for S & G ...  But I have some more work to do on the mill before I
> tear that circuitry out & reroute to this thing so I can play.
>
> Damn I hate it when the hardware and the docs aren't even in the same
> country.
>
> Thanks, Jon, John & Danny, & anybony else that chimed in while I was
> wrecking some mahogany by miss-reading the tape measure.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

Actually at least the X200 and WJ200 have integral interal braking 
resistors- but, for practical reasons of space and cooling, they're 
undersized and only "remedial".   They can't absorb the full current of 
high-speed braking that the drive can potentially deliver.

Danny

On 3/13/2016 1:14 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On 03/13/2016 10:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>>>
 I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
 would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
 different braking resistors.

>>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
>>> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
>>> yard?
>>>
>>>
>> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
>> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
>> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
>> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
>> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
>>
>> Jon
>
> I haven't read back through this thread, so this may have been mentioned.
>
> I added generic (wire wound with aluminum case) resistors to my VFD
> (Hitachi SJ200), but I still had fits trying to get a decent
> deceleration. It turned out that I needed to set the duty register,
> which is set to 0% by default. I think it is at 50% now and works a
> treat. I have a PDF copy of the VFD manual so I did a keyword search on
> "dynamic" to find all the settings that might affect braking, then went
> through each one until I found the duty setting. There was another type
> of braking, but it turned out to be a red herring. I seem to recall it
> was "DC braking", which injects DC to the motor for slow speed braking
> and doesn't use the braking resistor. One can hear the motor sing as the
> motor comes to a stop when this feature is active.
>
> It seems one must find all of the ducks, pick the right ones, and put
> them in a row before braking will work.
>
>


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:39:10 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> >> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
> >> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
> >> 12 different braking resistors.
> >
> > All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> > external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> > tree in the back yard?
>
> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
>
> Jon
>
Well, I just took this one down as far as I could get it by taking out 
screws abd unsnapping bits & peices w/o demolishing something, and there 
aren't any terminals called P or B, anyplace.  The only thing missing 
seems to be a short, fat electrolytic labeled C4 in the art work.  Every 
other hole in the boards has something in it.  So I guess I tie the 
motor down with some clamps, and see how fast I can make it reverse from 
its own panel.

I note that the interface terminl board has separate fwd and reverse 
outputs tallies.  But in the instructions, about how to configure it, 
both accel and decel times can be set as low as .01 seconds.

Panel 15 while configuring it says its the startup braking voltage, can 
be set from 1 to 100 volts.

Panel 16 is startup braking time, ensuring that it starts from dead.

Panel 17 is stop braking voltage, set 1 to 100 volts.

Panel 18 is stop DC braking time, 0.00 to 650.00 seconds.

Panel 19 selects the speed control input, choice of 5 different methods, 
I'd use 3 for External 0-5 volt and feed it the PWM from the 5i25, which 
I have been a ssured will work just fine.

Skipping a bunch of stuff that it looks as if it might be used to 
counteract any non-linearities in the speed obtain vs commanded, 7 
settings available there.

Skipping ahead to Panel 29,30,31 which are labeled
2nd accel time, 0.01 to 650 seconds
2nd decel time, same range
2nd decel stop frequency, .01 to 400 Hz, defining the output frequency 
where it switches, Panel 8 & 9 settings are used above this frequency, 
panel 29-30 used if below that frequency.

On page 25 is a table of braking resistors, and that tables heading says:

There are internal regenerat brake resistance in this series inverter 
from .75kw to 30 kw.  If extra brake torque is needed, please wire 
proper brake resistance, which in the table for this size inverter, 
1.5kw, is a 100 ohm 250 watter.

And thats all it has to say about braking resistors, but the device 
hasn't any terminals labeled P or B to which it shows the optional 
braking resistor is wired to. Seems I ought to feed it from the 5i25 
just for S & G ...  But I have some more work to do on the mill before I 
tear that circuitry out & reroute to this thing so I can play.

Damn I hate it when the hardware and the docs aren't even in the same 
country.

Thanks, Jon, John & Danny, & anybony else that chimed in while I was 
wrecking some mahogany by miss-reading the tape measure.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 13:36:58 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 03/13/2016 08:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
> >> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev
> >> in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2
> >> second.
> >>
> >> JT
> >
> > That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default
> > of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>
> Take the line current rating of the motor, multiply by 1.7
> (to make it "single phase current" then multiply by 1.5-2
> for a peak current rating.  Now, compute 340 / (number
> calculated above) and that is your resistor value.  These
> are rough calculations, but when the drive's controller
> detects a high bus voltage it will turn on the braking
> transistor until the voltage is safe again.  So, the
> resistor will be pulsed on in short bursts as needed during
> braking.  Use a big vitreous enamel resistor, it will only
> be pulsed during braking, so doesn't need to carry the
> steady-state wattage of that resistance across 340 V DC.  I
> used a single 25W resistor on my Bridgeport, and a pair of
> 50 W resistors on my VFDs.  The Bridgeport resistor does get
> hot when rigid tapping many holes, the one on the lathe
> never does, but it is not CNC'd so no rigid tapping on that
> machine.
>
> If you can find a chart of braking resistors in the book,
> use that instead of my scheme.
>
> Jon

Well, I like your idea better if the resistor switching is smart enough 
to do that, but first I am going to have to take it all apart and see if 
I can find terminals P & B that are called out on the interface pages, 
but are no-where to be seen on the power input and motor output terminal 
strip under the front cover.  If I open it all the way up, and find a 
place for a big transistor thats empty, I'll know I bought a real pig in 
a tied shut poke.  In that case it would make a good driver for a gantry 
router setup, but worthless as the tits on a boar hog to me.  I'll put 
some shoes back on and go get it and some diss tools & see if I can get 
any smarter.  Right now I am beginng to feel a little dumb for buying 
it.

More later I expect

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785231=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Kirk Wallace]

On 03/13/2016 10:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>>
>>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
>>> different braking resistors.
>>>
>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
>> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
>> yard?
>>
>>
> MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power
> block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
> So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built
> braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so
> the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.
>
> Jon


I haven't read back through this thread, so this may have been mentioned.

I added generic (wire wound with aluminum case) resistors to my VFD 
(Hitachi SJ200), but I still had fits trying to get a decent 
deceleration. It turned out that I needed to set the duty register, 
which is set to 0% by default. I think it is at 50% now and works a 
treat. I have a PDF copy of the VFD manual so I did a keyword search on 
"dynamic" to find all the settings that might affect braking, then went 
through each one until I found the duty setting. There was another type 
of braking, but it turned out to be a red herring. I seem to recall it 
was "DC braking", which injects DC to the motor for slow speed braking 
and doesn't use the braking resistor. One can hear the motor sing as the 
motor comes to a stop when this feature is active.

It seems one must find all of the ducks, pick the right ones, and put 
them in a row before braking will work.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Jon Elson]

On 03/13/2016 08:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
>> different braking resistors.
>>
> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
> yard?
>
>
MOST VFDs have the switch transistor built into the power 
block.  (6 rectifiers and 7 IGBTs).
So, those only need the resistor added.  The purpose-built 
braking resistors usually have a thermal overload sensor so 
the drive shuts down if the resistor overheats.

Jon

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Jon Elson]

On 03/13/2016 08:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in
>> 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.
>>
>> JT
> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default of
> 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>
>
Take the line current rating of the motor, multiply by 1.7 
(to make it "single phase current" then multiply by 1.5-2 
for a peak current rating.  Now, compute 340 / (number 
calculated above) and that is your resistor value.  These 
are rough calculations, but when the drive's controller 
detects a high bus voltage it will turn on the braking 
transistor until the voltage is safe again.  So, the 
resistor will be pulsed on in short bursts as needed during 
braking.  Use a big vitreous enamel resistor, it will only 
be pulsed during braking, so doesn't need to carry the 
steady-state wattage of that resistance across 340 V DC.  I 
used a single 25W resistor on my Bridgeport, and a pair of 
50 W resistors on my VFDs.  The Bridgeport resistor does get 
hot when rigid tapping many holes, the one on the lathe 
never does, but it is not CNC'd so no rigid tapping on that 
machine.

If you can find a chart of braking resistors in the book, 
use that instead of my scheme.

Jon

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Jon Elson]

On 03/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own front
> panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one of these
> things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is all
> gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and a 125
> volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this cycle of a
> peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small
> fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on
> its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am
> concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my
> lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is
> between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop
> it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
>
A strong VFD that doesn't have to current limit during the 
reversal, can reverse quite quickly.
Our shop at work has 480, and their Bridgeports reverse so 
quickly you can't even hear it.
(That's "plug reversing" off the mains, not a VFD.)
I had to slow DOWN the reversal on my Bridgeport to make 
sure my Z axis could follow the reversal.
I generally rigid tap with the spindle belt set on the high 
speed groove, so that the motor is running at about 20 Hz.  
It reverses much better in that case, as the motor's 
rotational inertia is dominant.  In the case of a lathe, the 
chuck may be dominant, so this trick may not give as much 
advantage.  I think I get the reversal done in about one 
rev, maybe less, I haven't really checked.  (One could 
figure it out easily with Halscope looking at the spindle 
encoder.)

The VFD needs to have a braking resistor to do this 
reversing properly.

Jon

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

I DID see there's "braking units" AND "braking resistors".  I am unclear 
on what's inside a braking unit.  I am sure it has a self-resetting 
breaker at least.  But that is not even all that good to have- opening 
of the breaker would cause the  VFD to go into an overvolt error state.  
You won't likely need it- a 50W resistor can handle 200W for probably 
like 30 sec.  So tripping for overcurrent in 3 sec would be unnecessary.

I think it's a thermal breaker actually, on the resistor, rather than a 
current-based breaker.  Which is ok, just prevents exceeding max temp.  
But you won't ever approach that if you size the wattage correctly.

I was wondering if it somehow used a lower resistance than you would 
normally apply and PWM'ed itself when lower braking currents are 
required.But I don't see how it could work that way, the bus voltage 
I think is fixed.

 From what I gather, a braking resistor should be fine.  The electronic 
braking units, I don't know what that adds.

Danny

On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
>> different braking resistors.
>>
> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
> yard?
>
> I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it for
> under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115
>> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-
>> z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(
>> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_
>> Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
 On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev
 in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2
 second.

 JT
>>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default
>>> of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>>>
>>> Thanks John.
>>>
 On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with it
> from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how
> fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the
> motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers
> and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of
> this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300
> rpms, is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30
> degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500
> rpms being a slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be
> able to reverse so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1
> because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its
> fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2
> and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it
> soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> motors?
>
> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
 ---
 ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
 Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
 Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
 Click to learn more.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

 From what I gather, the primary factor is the motor voltage and drive hp.

A 2.2KW motor with a 2.2KW drive on 208v is 10.6 amps.  Well, the phase 
currents are a different calc, and we're also talking about the main bus 
cap in the VFD which is rectified off the 208v source.  So these numbers 
have a lot wrong with them.  But if the drive's transistors are rated 
for 10.6 amps, then a 20ohm resistor would be needed to create enough 
sink current to stop from full RPM with full braking torque.

If you had a 5kw 208v motor but only put a 2.2kw VFD on it, you'd need 
that 20 ohm resistor because the transistors can't produce more stopping 
current.

If you have a 4.4KW drive and a 4.4KW  208v motor, it would have 21.2 
amp transistors and thus need a 10 ohm resistor.

Now note this- say this is a 2.2KW motor and a 2.2kw VFD, but it's a 
480v motor and VFD, that runs on higher voltages and lower currents.  
The same 20 ohm resistor would sink 2.3x more current off the higher 
voltage bus cap- yet the transistors are sized for 1/2.3x the current.  
The resistor is far too small, it needs to be 107 ohms to do the same thing.

The VFD manual describes how this works.  As I said before, the higher 
wattage brakes seem unnecessary for stopping a spindle at such low 
duty.  But search "braking resistor" on ebay, high wattages aren't 
expensive.  Getting excess wattage is not a problem.

However, getting too high a resistance means the bus cap can still get 
an overvolt error resulting in reverting to freewheeling and you'll have 
to increase the stop time.

Conversely if the resistance is too low, the resistor will actually be 
sucking too much current off the bus and depress to bus cap.  The VFD 
will probably switch it on and off but it's a bad idea.  The transistor 
the VFD uses as the resistor switch is only rated for a certain amperage 
and you're exceeding it by using too small of a resistor.

Again, DO NOT use my resistor ohms examples here.  They are not 
calculated correctly for 3-ph systems.

Danny

On 3/13/2016 8:30 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives would
> use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
> different braking resistors.
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>
> JT
>
> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>>
>>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in
>>> 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.
>>>
>>> JT
>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default of
>> 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>>
>> Thanks John.
>>
>>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
 Greetings everybody;

 Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
 control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own
 front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one
 of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?

 I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
 all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and
 a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this
 cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms,
 is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of
 rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a
 slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse
 so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1 because of the
 turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its fragile drive train
 and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250
 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap
 may bottom out and break.

 What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
 motors?

 Can you still do rigid tapping safely?

 Thanks all.

 Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> --
>>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>>> Click to learn more.
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>>> ___
>>> Emc-users mailing list
>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

Oh look, same thing but larger:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Trapezium-500W-100ohm-Aluminum-Housed-Wire-Wound-Braking-Resistor-/281080278842?hash=item4171b0af3a:g:VqMAAMXQ855RwVCg

 From what I'd Googled, the wattage can be much lower with drives for 
spindles that just need them to stop on a low duty (<1/min).

Danny

On 3/13/2016 10:45 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> I don't know who AT is or what your looking at, the braking resistor for
> the 3hp GS2 is $76 all day long.
>
> Look by the output terminals...
>
> The AD 100 ohm 300 watt braking resistor is $65 part number GS-22P0-BR
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_%28VFD%29_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29/Braking_Options_%28All_GS_Drives%29/GS-22P0-BR
>
> JT
>
> On 3/13/2016 10:36 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 10:14:26 John Thornton wrote:
>>
>>> I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...
>>>
>>> JT
>> AT's quoted prices on their web page, a/o this morning, were uniformly
>> all $435 with a note they also needed some sort of a controller
>> interface too, price UNK on that.
>>
>> Looking in the small booklet for this FVD, an ASKPOWER A131, they don't
>> offer a lot of data, but do say a 1.5 kw should use a 100 ohm resistor
>> that can stand 250 watts for the short duty cycle situation.  But the
>> bigger concern is that the braking rsistor terminals P & B, are not to
>> be found on the customer interface, nor on the top, logic board in the
>> device. Possibly on the power output board, but I haven't dissed it far
>> enough to see that if that is where they are.
>>
>> Can anyone else advise me on this, or do I have a vfd that cannot do
>> this?
>>
>>> On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
> 12 different braking resistors.
 All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
 external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
 tree in the back yard?

 I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it
 for under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.

> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28
> 115
> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%281
> 15_- z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Driv
> e_(
> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_
> -a-_ Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>
> JT
>
> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800
>>> rev in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to
>>> 1/2 second.
>>>
>>> JT
>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers
>> default of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor
>> you used?
>>
>> Thanks John.
>>
>>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
 Greetings everybody;

 Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
 accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with
 it from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of
 just how fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000
 rpm at the motor spindle?

 I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which
 is all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo
 amplifiers and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn
 around depth of this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the
 spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small fraction of a second,
 far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal
 performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am concerned
 that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
 impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.
 On my lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this
 overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable,
 but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and
 break.

 What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
 motors?

 Can you still do rigid tapping safely?

 Thanks all.

 Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> -
>>> -- ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>>> Intel Data Analytics 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I don't know who AT is or what your looking at, the braking resistor for 
the 3hp GS2 is $76 all day long.

Look by the output terminals...

The AD 100 ohm 300 watt braking resistor is $65 part number GS-22P0-BR

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_%28VFD%29_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29/Braking_Options_%28All_GS_Drives%29/GS-22P0-BR

JT

On 3/13/2016 10:36 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 10:14:26 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...
>>
>> JT
> AT's quoted prices on their web page, a/o this morning, were uniformly
> all $435 with a note they also needed some sort of a controller
> interface too, price UNK on that.
>
> Looking in the small booklet for this FVD, an ASKPOWER A131, they don't
> offer a lot of data, but do say a 1.5 kw should use a 100 ohm resistor
> that can stand 250 watts for the short duty cycle situation.  But the
> bigger concern is that the braking rsistor terminals P & B, are not to
> be found on the customer interface, nor on the top, logic board in the
> device. Possibly on the power output board, but I haven't dissed it far
> enough to see that if that is where they are.
>
> Can anyone else advise me on this, or do I have a vfd that cannot do
> this?
>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
 I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
 would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
 12 different braking resistors.
>>> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
>>> external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
>>> tree in the back yard?
>>>
>>> I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it
>>> for under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
>>>
 http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28
 115
 _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%281
 15_- z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0

 http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Driv
 e_(
 VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_
 -a-_ Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR

 JT

 On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800
>> rev in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to
>> 1/2 second.
>>
>> JT
> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers
> default of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor
> you used?
>
> Thanks John.
>
>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>
>>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
>>> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with
>>> it from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of
>>> just how fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000
>>> rpm at the motor spindle?
>>>
>>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which
>>> is all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo
>>> amplifiers and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn
>>> around depth of this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the
>>> spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small fraction of a second,
>>> far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal
>>> performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am concerned
>>> that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
>>> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.
>>> On my lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this
>>> overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable,
>>> but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and
>>> break.
>>>
>>> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
>>> motors?
>>>
>>> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>>>
>>> Thanks all.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> -
>> -- ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
 ---
 ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
 Accelerate data 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 10:14:26 John Thornton wrote:

> I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...
>
> JT

AT's quoted prices on their web page, a/o this morning, were uniformly 
all $435 with a note they also needed some sort of a controller 
interface too, price UNK on that.

Looking in the small booklet for this FVD, an ASKPOWER A131, they don't 
offer a lot of data, but do say a 1.5 kw should use a 100 ohm resistor 
that can stand 250 watts for the short duty cycle situation.  But the 
bigger concern is that the braking rsistor terminals P & B, are not to 
be found on the customer interface, nor on the top, logic board in the 
device. Possibly on the power output board, but I haven't dissed it far 
enough to see that if that is where they are.

Can anyone else advise me on this, or do I have a vfd that cannot do 
this?

> On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
> >> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
> >> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are
> >> 12 different braking resistors.
> >
> > All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra,
> > external controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a
> > tree in the back yard?
> >
> > I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it
> > for under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
> >
> >> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28
> >>115
> >> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%281
> >>15_- z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
> >>
> >> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Driv
> >>e_(
> >> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_
> >>-a-_ Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
> >>
> >> JT
> >>
> >> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>  On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800
>  rev in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to
>  1/2 second.
> 
>  JT
> >>>
> >>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers
> >>> default of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor
> >>> you used?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks John.
> >>>
>  On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings everybody;
> >
> > Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
> > accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with
> > it from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of
> > just how fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000
> > rpm at the motor spindle?
> >
> > I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which
> > is all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo
> > amplifiers and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn
> > around depth of this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the
> > spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small fraction of a second,
> > far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal
> > performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am concerned
> > that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
> > impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots. 
> > On my lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this
> > overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable,
> > but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and
> > break.
> >
> > What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> > motors?
> >
> > Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 
>  -
> -- ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>  Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>  Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>  Click to learn more.
>  http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>  ___
>  Emc-users mailing list
>  Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >>
> >> ---
> >>---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
> >> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> >> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> >> Click to learn more.
> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> 

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I'm confused the braking resistor for my drive is $76...

JT

On 3/13/2016 8:47 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
>> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
>> different braking resistors.
>>
> All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external
> controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back
> yard?
>
> I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it for
> under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.
>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115
>> _-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-
>> z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>>
>> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(
>> VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_
>> Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
 On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev
 in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2
 second.

 JT
>>> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default
>>> of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>>>
>>> Thanks John.
>>>
 On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with it
> from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how
> fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the
> motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers
> and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of
> this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300
> rpms, is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30
> degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500
> rpms being a slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be
> able to reverse so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1
> because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its
> fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2
> and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it
> soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> motors?
>
> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
 ---
 ---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
 Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
 Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
 Click to learn more.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 09:30:30 John Thornton wrote:

> I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives
> would use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12
> different braking resistors.
>
All of which are $435 a copy & still need some sort of an extra, external 
controller. AD thinks we are growing our own money on a tree in the back 
yard?

I'll look at the controller I have first. I should be able to do it for 
under a $100 Ben Franklin picture.

> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115
>_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-
>z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0
>
> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(
>VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_
>Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR
>
> JT
>
> On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
> >> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev
> >> in 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2
> >> second.
> >>
> >> JT
> >
> > That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default
> > of 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
> >
> > Thanks John.
> >
> >> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> Greetings everybody;
> >>>
> >>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable
> >>> accelleration control, and that my couple of hours playing with it
> >>> from its own front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how
> >>> fast can one of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the
> >>> motor spindle?
> >>>
> >>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
> >>> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers
> >>> and a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of
> >>> this cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300
> >>> rpms, is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30
> >>> degrees of rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500
> >>> rpms being a slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be
> >>> able to reverse so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1
> >>> because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its
> >>> fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2
> >>> and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it
> >>> soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
> >>>
> >>> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> >>> motors?
> >>>
> >>> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks all.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >>
> >> ---
> >>---  Transform Data into Opportunity.
> >> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> >> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> >> Click to learn more.
> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> Transform Data into Opportunity.
> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> Click to learn more.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

I just used the the one for by the drive. I "think" not all drives would 
use the same resistor. Just looking at the GS2 and there are 12 
different braking resistors.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS2_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control%29/GS2_Drive_Units_%28115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC%29/GS2-23P0

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/GS_Braking_Options_(Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors)/Braking_Options_(All_GS_Drives)/GS-23P0-BR

JT

On 3/13/2016 8:03 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:
>
>> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in
>> 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.
>>
>> JT
> That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default of
> 30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?
>
> Thanks John.
>
>> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings everybody;
>>>
>>> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
>>> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own
>>> front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one
>>> of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>>>
>>> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
>>> all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and
>>> a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this
>>> cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms,
>>> is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of
>>> rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a
>>> slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse
>>> so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1 because of the
>>> turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its fragile drive train
>>> and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250
>>> running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap
>>> may bottom out and break.
>>>
>>> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
>>> motors?
>>>
>>> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>>>
>>> Thanks all.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>>  Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 07:40:25 John Thornton wrote:

> On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in
> 1 second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.
>
> JT

That would be considerably more usefull than the controllers default of 
30 seconds.  Do you recall the specs of the resistor you used?

Thanks John.

> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings everybody;
> >
> > Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> > control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own
> > front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one
> > of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
> >
> > I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
> > all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and
> > a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this
> > cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms,
> > is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of
> > rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a
> > slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse
> > so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1 because of the
> > turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its fragile drive train
> > and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250
> > running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap
> > may bottom out and break.
> >
> > What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> > motors?
> >
> > Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> Transform Data into Opportunity.
> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> Click to learn more.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[John Thornton]

On my GS-2 with the braking resistor I go from 1800 fwd to 1800 rev in 1 
second. I have both acceleration and deceleration set to 1/2 second.

JT

On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own front
> panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one of these
> things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is all
> gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and a 125
> volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this cycle of a
> peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small
> fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on
> its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am
> concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my
> lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is
> between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop
> it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and motors?
>
> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 March 2016 00:19:35 Danny Miller wrote:

> Without an external braking resistor, the deceleration is much more
> limited.  What happens is the back EMF charges the main bus capacitor,
> and it will go into an overvolt error and simply freewheel to avoid
> charging it further to a point where it will damage the cap.
>
> I have a 3KW air-cooled milling spindle.  It had no problem with a 2
> sec spinup time to 18K RPM.  However, it went to an overvolt condition
> with a 3 sec spindown time, I had to bump it to 5 sec.
>
> The X200/WJ200 manual shows braking torque is as low as, I believe,
> 20%-40% of spinup torque without a resistor.  With a resistor, it can
> be as high as 150%.
>
>  From my experience with the Hitachi X200 VFD, I didn't see any
> visibility to current RPM.  The acceleration period I had as a
> controllable parameter was a fixed time, i.e. 2 sec to 18K RPM but if
> you only specified 5K RPM target, it'd still take 2 sec.  I presume
> that also meant if you were at 5K RPM and specified 6K it would take 2
> sec to accelerate which is unnecessarily slow.  And keep in mind the
> acceleration isn't a parameter provided with the RPM set.  It would be
> set separately and is part of the configuration.  I don't even know
> how to program those config parameters from Modbus.
>
> I think the manual described a 2-stage option, X seconds to RPM1 then
> Y seconds to RPM2.  Doesn't really change things though.  I didn't see
> an "seconds per K RPM of speed difference", as in, an ACTUAL
> acceleration.
>
> Danny

Thanks Danny.  I'll have to investigate the little booklet manual that 
came with it to see what sort of a braking R is needed, and a wild guess 
at what its wattage would need to be to survive a 50 peck g33.1 hole 
tapping session.  I think it mentioned it, but it wasn't something I was 
concerned about at the time I was verifying that it would at least run.

I haven't used a braking R per sei with Jons amplifier, but I do know it 
will dump back into the supply, blasting it from 125 volts to enough to 
clear a 7 watt 127 volt night light style of a C7 lamp in just a few 
cycles of that.

I hadn't even considered the need for the braking resistor, so that will 
obviously need to be arranged for.  Glad you brought it up, thanks.

> On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings everybody;
> >
> > Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> > control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own
> > front panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one
> > of these things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
> >
> > I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is
> > all gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and
> > a 125 volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this
> > cycle of a peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms,
> > is a very small fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of
> > rotation.  Based on its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a
> > slim second, I am concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse
> > so quickly, and will impact my use of G33.1 because of the
> > turnaround over shoots.  On my lathe, with its fragile drive train
> > and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is between 2 and 3 turns at 250
> > running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop it soon enough, the tap
> > may bottom out and break.
> >
> > What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and
> > motors?
> >
> > Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> --
> Transform Data into Opportunity.
> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
> Click to learn more.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Danny Miller]

Without an external braking resistor, the deceleration is much more 
limited.  What happens is the back EMF charges the main bus capacitor, 
and it will go into an overvolt error and simply freewheel to avoid 
charging it further to a point where it will damage the cap.

I have a 3KW air-cooled milling spindle.  It had no problem with a 2 sec 
spinup time to 18K RPM.  However, it went to an overvolt condition with 
a 3 sec spindown time, I had to bump it to 5 sec.

The X200/WJ200 manual shows braking torque is as low as, I believe, 
20%-40% of spinup torque without a resistor.  With a resistor, it can be 
as high as 150%.

 From my experience with the Hitachi X200 VFD, I didn't see any 
visibility to current RPM.  The acceleration period I had as a 
controllable parameter was a fixed time, i.e. 2 sec to 18K RPM but if 
you only specified 5K RPM target, it'd still take 2 sec.  I presume that 
also meant if you were at 5K RPM and specified 6K it would take 2 sec to 
accelerate which is unnecessarily slow.  And keep in mind the 
acceleration isn't a parameter provided with the RPM set.  It would be 
set separately and is part of the configuration.  I don't even know how 
to program those config parameters from Modbus.

I think the manual described a 2-stage option, X seconds to RPM1 then Y 
seconds to RPM2.  Doesn't really change things though.  I didn't see an 
"seconds per K RPM of speed difference", as in, an ACTUAL acceleration.

Danny

On 3/12/2016 10:12 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings everybody;
>
> Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration
> control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own front
> panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one of these
> things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?
>
> I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is all
> gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and a 125
> volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this cycle of a
> peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small
> fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on
> its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am
> concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will
> impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my
> lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is
> between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop
> it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.
>
> What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and motors?
>
> Can you still do rigid tapping safely?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] Using a vfd vs G33.1

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings everybody;

Given that I note the vfd's seem to have an adjustable accelleration 
control, and that my couple of hours playing with it from its own front 
panel, I am led at ask the question of just how fast can one of these 
things be reversed from say 1000 rpm at the motor spindle?

I ask because my present setup, using the OEM PM DC motor which is all 
gear drive to the spindle, one of Jons pwm servo amplifiers and a 125 
volt dc supply, reversals at the turn around depth of this cycle of a 
peck tapping operation, with the spindle doing 300 rpms, is a very small 
fraction of a second, far less than 30 degrees of rotation.  Based on 
its reversal performance at 2500 rpms being a slim second, I am 
concerned that the vfd may not be able to reverse so quickly, and will 
impact my use of G33.1 because of the turnaround over shoots.  On my 
lathe, with its fragile drive train and a 5" chuck, this overshoot is 
between 2 and 3 turns at 250 running rpms.  Usable, but if I don't stop 
it soon enough, the tap may bottom out and break.

What has been the experience of others using smaller vfd's and motors? 

Can you still do rigid tapping safely?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785111=/4140
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users