Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-08 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Sat, 2010-03-06 at 21:49 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
... snip
 It seems to work. I jury rigged a breadboard and massaged my ADC comp
 into a absolute encoder comp. I get an output from 0 to 1023 as I rotate
 the shaft magnet. Now, I need to machine a housing with a shaft, bearing
 and terminal strip and give it another test. I'll post the Halscope and
 comp file tomorrow.
 
 There isn't much left of the original encoder, so I'm thinking it would
 have been better to just get the sensor chip, if it's available.

In case anyone is interested, here is a picture of the setup:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/AEAT-6010/dcp_6888.jpg 
( http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/AEAT-6010/ )

Here is the HALscope:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/AEAT-6010/AEAT6010_HALscope-1a.png
 

which isn't all that interesting because there isn't much to see. The
top trace (blue) is the chip select (active low). The second trace down
is the data-out clock which clocks the data bits out on the rise and the
comp records on the fall. The green trace shows the value while I turned
the knob up. At 1023, the next step drops to 0 or vice-versa.

It looks like the sensor is not available separately. There are the
austriamicrosystems rotary chips, which are very attractive:
http://austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Encoders/Rotary-Encoders 

but their onesies-twosies pricing is still too high. Too bad, nice
product.

Now, I need to apply the encoder to feed and spindle override and jog. I
suppose I will need to mechanically keep the knob from wrapping, or
maybe do it in logic? Since the encoder is absolute, when it gets
enabled, it will instantly output whatever value the knob is set for. I
wonder this might become a problem? Should there be a way to
automatically move the knob to a safe setting?

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-08 Thread Andy Pugh
On 8 March 2010 20:16, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote:

 It looks like the sensor is not available separately. There are the
 austriamicrosystems rotary chips, which are very attractive:
 http://austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Encoders/Rotary-Encoders

 but their onesies-twosies pricing is still too high. Too bad, nice
 product.

What does this link look like from the US?

http://export.farnell.com/austriamicrosystems/as5045-assu/encoder-magnetic-rotary-10bit-16ssop/dp/1630801

Or alternatively:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProductR=6691501

I have an account with the latter, and postage for such tiny things
can't be expensive

-- 
atp

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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-08 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 21:10 +, Andy Pugh wrote:
 On 8 March 2010 20:16, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote:
 
  It looks like the sensor is not available separately. There are the
  austriamicrosystems rotary chips, which are very attractive:
  http://austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Encoders/Rotary-Encoders
 
  but their onesies-twosies pricing is still too high. Too bad, nice
  product.
 
 What does this link look like from the US?
 
 http://export.farnell.com/austriamicrosystems/as5045-assu/encoder-magnetic-rotary-10bit-16ssop/dp/1630801
 
 Or alternatively:
 http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProductR=6691501
 
 I have an account with the latter, and postage for such tiny things
 can't be expensive

The Farnell page shows a table of links to their location specific home
pages, none in the U.S.

RS shows 1 @ L8.36 which which puts it in line with the Avago part.
RS has this page which has a U.S. link to Allied, but there are no
austriamicrosystem parts.

I did find this:
http://www.cdiweb.com/FeaturedProducts.aspx?Manf=295Type=93NavType=1 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-08 Thread Kasey Matejcek
You can get samples to play with 
I currently are using these in a weather van seem to be pretty accrate and
stable
www.newark.com cares them to but still $8.50

-Original Message-
From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:19 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 21:10 +, Andy Pugh wrote:
 On 8 March 2010 20:16, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote:
 
  It looks like the sensor is not available separately. There are the
  austriamicrosystems rotary chips, which are very attractive:
 
http://austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Encoders/Rotary-Encoder
s
 
  but their onesies-twosies pricing is still too high. Too bad, nice
  product.
 
 What does this link look like from the US?
 

http://export.farnell.com/austriamicrosystems/as5045-assu/encoder-magnetic-r
otary-10bit-16ssop/dp/1630801
 
 Or alternatively:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct
R=6691501
 
 I have an account with the latter, and postage for such tiny things
 can't be expensive

The Farnell page shows a table of links to their location specific home
pages, none in the U.S.

RS shows 1 @ L8.36 which which puts it in line with the Avago part.
RS has this page which has a U.S. link to Allied, but there are no
austriamicrosystem parts.

I did find this:
http://www.cdiweb.com/FeaturedProducts.aspx?Manf=295Type=93NavType=1 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA



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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-08 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Mon, 2010-03-08 at 18:07 -0600, Kasey Matejcek wrote:
 You can get samples to play with 
 I currently are using these in a weather van seem to be pretty accrate and
 stable
 www.newark.com cares them to but still $8.50

Thanks Kasey, Newark seems to have it.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-06 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 14:14 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
... snip
 Well, it turns out the sensor board on my AEAT 6010 encoder board is
 glued in so it was a bit of a chore to get out. Now I need to wire it up
 to see if it still works.
 http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/dcp_6885-1a.jpg 

It seems to work. I jury rigged a breadboard and massaged my ADC comp
into a absolute encoder comp. I get an output from 0 to 1023 as I rotate
the shaft magnet. Now, I need to machine a housing with a shaft, bearing
and terminal strip and give it another test. I'll post the Halscope and
comp file tomorrow.

There isn't much left of the original encoder, so I'm thinking it would
have been better to just get the sensor chip, if it's available.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


--
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proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Dave

Like you guys, I'm interested in using some of these inexpensive 
encoders.  Compared to industrial units, they are a fraction of the price.

The casing and wiring is obviously not industrial Nema 12 etc, in 
nature - no oilproof military connector on the side of the encoder and 
no bearings...

So how do you guys get around these issues?Fashion some type of 
cover over the back of the motors and run the cable through a grommet?

How could you use one of these encoders for a spindle encoder?   Make up 
a two bearing support system with a stub shaft that the encoder can hang 
off of?

I haven't heard much about US Digital's cheap encoders.   What about 
Renco encoders?  Is the consensus that those are ok?

Dave


On 3/4/2010 6:53 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Thu, 2010-03-04 at 15:13 -0700, John Harris wrote:

 Hi Kirk,
  Try Samtec at
 http://www.samtec.com/documents/webfiles/pdf/FTSH_TH.PDF They only do dual
 row headers, and they also do ribbon cable connectors to match. You can get
 free samples if you find your way to their Sudden Service page.

 I f you can tell me exactly the row and pin count, with SMT or through hole,
 I may be able to give you the exact part number. Their catalog and web site
 are tough unless you know your way.

 John
  
 Thanks John. The encoder has a single row of five pins, or as Lawrence
 noted blades. This connector seems to be the mate for the encoder:
 http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=WM1723-ND

 I'll give your link a look.




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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Jon Elson
Dave wrote:
 Like you guys, I'm interested in using some of these inexpensive 
 encoders.  Compared to industrial units, they are a fraction of the price.

 The casing and wiring is obviously not industrial Nema 12 etc, in 
 nature - no oilproof military connector on the side of the encoder and 
 no bearings...
   
For the CUI encoder, the motor's bearings are the encoder's bearings.  
There have been kit encoders for years that work this way.
 So how do you guys get around these issues?Fashion some type of 
 cover over the back of the motors and run the cable through a grommet?

 How could you use one of these encoders for a spindle encoder?   Make up 
 a two bearing support system with a stub shaft that the encoder can hang 
 off of?
   
That is how you would do it.
 I haven't heard much about US Digital's cheap encoders.   What about 
 Renco encoders?  Is the consensus that those are ok?
   
Renco's encoders are fine, and are used inside many name brand motors, 
such as GL, SEM, Servo Dynamics, etc.
They were the first to integrate commutation tracks wth ABZ for 
brushless motors.  They were just bought out by somebody, and their web 
site was in some disarray and offline for a while.  It is now back, and 
has data on their old models, too.

I'd avoid US Digital's economy line.  Enough problems have been reported 
related to noise sensitivity that you just don't need to get into that 
trouble.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 10:23 -0500, Dave wrote:
 Like you guys, I'm interested in using some of these inexpensive 
 encoders.  Compared to industrial units, they are a fraction of the price.
 
 The casing and wiring is obviously not industrial Nema 12 etc, in 
 nature - no oilproof military connector on the side of the encoder and 
 no bearings...
 
 So how do you guys get around these issues?Fashion some type of 
 cover over the back of the motors and run the cable through a grommet?

Maybe this?
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=APC1069-ND 

 How could you use one of these encoders for a spindle encoder?   Make up 
 a two bearing support system with a stub shaft that the encoder can hang 
 off of?
 
 I haven't heard much about US Digital's cheap encoders.   What about 
 Renco encoders?  Is the consensus that those are ok?
 
 Dave

I think the cheap way to use U. S. Digital encoders is to make your own
from their hubs and sensors, which I did for my lathe:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00011-1a.jpg
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/1-1a.jpg 
http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/4-1a.jpg 

For the axes encoders I made round Delrin covers with an o-ring seal.
Then used pressed in brass inserts through the cover for screw
terminals. I should install shaft seals, but I haven't gotten round2it.

My plan for the AEAT's may be similar. The sensor boards have two tiny
plastic pins that are staked to fasten the board. A hot soldering iron
tip could soften the staking, and the board pushed out.
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/dcp_6877-1a.jpg
 

A shaft, bearings and housing would need to be designed with magnetic
fields in mind. Using a screw terminal block on an o-ring sealed circuit
board might be a way to go.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=A98336-ND 

or add a few more terminals and place a differential driver chip on the
inside of the board.

An SSI hal component is in the works too, unless someone has one
already?
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 12:27 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
... snip
 I'd avoid US Digital's economy line.  Enough problems have been reported 
 related to noise sensitivity that you just don't need to get into that 
 trouble.
 
 Jon

I would not have had any trouble with mine, if I had followed normal
noise reduction practices. Others, of course, may have had different
results.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Dave
Interesting Kirk,

Thanks for the ideas.  Considering that new industrial Nema 12 type 
encoders can easily hit $500-600 each this is something to think about.

Dave

On 3/5/2010 2:08 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 10:23 -0500, Dave wrote:

 Like you guys, I'm interested in using some of these inexpensive
 encoders.  Compared to industrial units, they are a fraction of the price.

 The casing and wiring is obviously not industrial Nema 12 etc, in
 nature - no oilproof military connector on the side of the encoder and
 no bearings...

 So how do you guys get around these issues?Fashion some type of
 cover over the back of the motors and run the cable through a grommet?
  
 Maybe this?
 http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=APC1069-ND


 How could you use one of these encoders for a spindle encoder?   Make up
 a two bearing support system with a stub shaft that the encoder can hang
 off of?

 I haven't heard much about US Digital's cheap encoders.   What about
 Renco encoders?  Is the consensus that those are ok?

 Dave
  
 I think the cheap way to use U. S. Digital encoders is to make your own
 from their hubs and sensors, which I did for my lathe:
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/00011-1a.jpg
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/1-1a.jpg
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/cnc_lathe/HNC/4-1a.jpg

 For the axes encoders I made round Delrin covers with an o-ring seal.
 Then used pressed in brass inserts through the cover for screw
 terminals. I should install shaft seals, but I haven't gotten round2it.

 My plan for the AEAT's may be similar. The sensor boards have two tiny
 plastic pins that are staked to fasten the board. A hot soldering iron
 tip could soften the staking, and the board pushed out.
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/dcp_6877-1a.jpg

 A shaft, bearings and housing would need to be designed with magnetic
 fields in mind. Using a screw terminal block on an o-ring sealed circuit
 board might be a way to go.
 http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=A98336-ND

 or add a few more terminals and place a differential driver chip on the
 inside of the board.

 An SSI hal component is in the works too, unless someone has one
 already?



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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread ad...@mmri.us
I really liked browsing through your website.
The furnace was nice!

I have the holy fear working with propane, so I ask;
Did you ever consider using a large TIG welder to create a small Arc oven?
The Duty cycle on a Transformer Miller Tig seems to be good enough.
or
Do you know of someone who does this.
It would be great info for me as my Syncrowave Tigs are replaced by (way 
better) HTP Tigs and I can make use of them for other purposes.

L Venter



Kirk Wallace wrote:
 On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 12:27 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:
 ... snip
   
 I'd avoid US Digital's economy line.  Enough problems have been reported 
 related to noise sensitivity that you just don't need to get into that 
 trouble.

 Jon
 

 I would not have had any trouble with mine, if I had followed normal
 noise reduction practices. Others, of course, may have had different
 results.
   


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector - now encoders in general....

2010-03-05 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 15:14 -0500, ad...@mmri.us wrote:
 I really liked browsing through your website.
 The furnace was nice!

I need to melt cast iron, but so far I've only done aluminum. It turns
out the homemade refractory I used will melt at iron casting
temperatures. So I need to make a new furnace.

 I have the holy fear working with propane,

With practice, I'm finding it becoming much more predicable. I am
missing some forearm hair, but my eye brows are fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5-xS9sDuLg 

Propane is interesting, I think because the molecule is short, so the
flame is short. My guess is the short flame causes a fairly tight
pressure wave that can feed back to the regulator causing an unstable
feedback. On propane only, the burner has a bit of a pulse jet sound and
can be hard to keep lit. I put a flare and reducer on my propane only
burner to get more of a de Laval nozzle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Laval_nozzle 

This helped a lot, I think because the pressure wave is directed to the
output side of the burner. I need to do the same for the oil burner.

The oil has a much longer flame with a bunch more heat, but needs to be
vaporized before it will burn. Currently, I run the propane at idle to
get just enough of a flame to vaporize the oil, but the oil does the
heavy lifting. Eventually, the walls of the furnace glow orange and I
can turn the propane off, but by then the aluminum has been melted and
poured.

  so I ask;
 Did you ever consider using a large TIG welder to create a small Arc oven?
 The Duty cycle on a Transformer Miller Tig seems to be good enough.
 or
 Do you know of someone who does this.
 It would be great info for me as my Syncrowave Tigs are replaced by (way 
 better) HTP Tigs and I can make use of them for other purposes.
 
 L Venter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6NJuctYgxA 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF8sGrdzE3o 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G43rIx0d5aY 

I think my Hobart could be useful for an arc furnace, but I've got a
bunch of waste oil, and more free oil is coming. I will need to plant a
bunch of trees to offset my carbon footprint, but I think trees are
pretty huggable, so that's okay.

It would be fun to try to melt some cast iron in crucible, but I need to
find a source for a crucible that can take the heat. One plan is to, get
some Mizzou and cast my own crucibles.
http://www.empire-refractory.com/catalog/mizzou-castable-plus.htm 

but I need to find a local vendor.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-05 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Fri, 2010-03-05 at 15:16 -0500, Dave wrote:
 Interesting Kirk,
 
 Thanks for the ideas.  Considering that new industrial Nema 12 type 
 encoders can easily hit $500-600 each this is something to think about.
 
 Dave

Well, it turns out the sensor board on my AEAT 6010 encoder board is
glued in so it was a bit of a chore to get out. Now I need to wire it up
to see if it still works.
http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/dcp_6885-1a.jpg 

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-04 Thread Flying Electron Inc
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.comwrote:

 I've got my encoders from Avnet (AEAT-6010):
 http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/

 but now I need to figure out how to connect to them. I figured I could
 get by for now with soldering wires to the back of the PC board, but
 there is no way, it's way to small. So I need to find a proper
 connector, but I don't know what keywords to search on. The pins have
 a .05 pitch. Thanks for any help.
 --
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA


Suprising that Avago didn't explicitly specify a mating connector part
number in their datasheet, but for some reason they didn't.  The datasheet
says 1.25mm pitch, very close to 0.05 but different enough to cause trouble
with a real 0.05 pitch connector.

My guess would be a MOLEX PicoBlade 1.25mm connector, probably part
number 51021-0500

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/632/1277.pdf

The picture of the connector seems like it should plug in nicely with the
outline of the connector in the datasheet.

You'll need some female crimps too either part number 50058-8000
or 50079-8000 depending on the size of wire you will be using.

Looks like about 37 cents for the connector and about a quarter for the 5
crimps, but I'd order some extra crimps just in case of accidents during
crimping.

Lawrence
--
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Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-04 Thread John Harris
Hi Kirk,
Try Samtec at 
http://www.samtec.com/documents/webfiles/pdf/FTSH_TH.PDF They only do dual 
row headers, and they also do ribbon cable connectors to match. You can get 
free samples if you find your way to their Sudden Service page.

I f you can tell me exactly the row and pin count, with SMT or through hole, 
I may be able to give you the exact part number. Their catalog and web site 
are tough unless you know your way.

John

- Original Message - 
From: Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:40 PM
Subject: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector


 I've got my encoders from Avnet (AEAT-6010):
 http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/absolute_encoder/

 but now I need to figure out how to connect to them. I figured I could
 get by for now with soldering wires to the back of the PC board, but
 there is no way, it's way to small. So I need to find a proper
 connector, but I don't know what keywords to search on. The pins have
 a .05 pitch. Thanks for any help.
 -- 
 Kirk Wallace
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
 http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
 California, USA


 --
 Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval
 Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
 proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
 See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
 


--
Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval
Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
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Re: [Emc-users] Absolute Encoder Connector

2010-03-04 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Thu, 2010-03-04 at 15:13 -0700, John Harris wrote:
 Hi Kirk,
 Try Samtec at 
 http://www.samtec.com/documents/webfiles/pdf/FTSH_TH.PDF They only do dual 
 row headers, and they also do ribbon cable connectors to match. You can get 
 free samples if you find your way to their Sudden Service page.
 
 I f you can tell me exactly the row and pin count, with SMT or through hole, 
 I may be able to give you the exact part number. Their catalog and web site 
 are tough unless you know your way.
 
 John

Thanks John. The encoder has a single row of five pins, or as Lawrence
noted blades. This connector seems to be the mate for the encoder:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detailname=WM1723-ND 

I'll give your link a look.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


--
Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval
Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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