Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
I can't divulge great details since we are building the first machine > and we have competitors that did not get the business, but would like to > grab it if possible. > It sounds like an interesting project. In the research I have done with remote machine monitoring (and GPS breadcrumbing) most of the people appear to be using a small open architecture hardware and software (linux) with bolt on components such as the GPS, WIFI, and Cellular modems. In your case, unless there is a tremendous amount of computing overhead required, I would assume a tinkered smart phone could provide the computing power, the necessary comunication, component durability,a nd finally, the ability to quickly replace a damaged unit. Of course that may be difficult if you need to load EMC to the unit. I recently was working with a company trying to develop a unit that would mount on a drill rig. My biggest complaint to them was thier inability to tag pertinent data to a down the hole position. Something an encoder plus the GPS unit could have provided if they could have figured out how to tag it to any of the various types of drilling platforms. Hope you find your solution. Brian -- Got Input? Slashdot Needs You. Take our quick survey online. Come on, we don't ask for help often. Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek. http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sat, 2011-07-30 at 11:23 -0400, Matt Shaver wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:22 -0400 > Dave wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience in testing for condensation issues? > > I operate a couple of 802.11 wireless access points outdoors, year > round. They supply my internet service, so they are "mission critical". > I'm in Maryland, so temps range from +100F to perhaps -20F and humidity > from almost 0 to 100%. These devices are in regular PVC electrical > enclosures and I've never had condensation problems. I've lost lots to > springtime lightning though :) > > Just to add my anecdote to the pile... > > Thanks, > Matt Thinking in terms of regular steel outside boxes (or Al) the conductivity and specific heat of PVC is going to be somewhat different. However anything that survives your temps with almost 4" of rain a month has to have something going for it. That much rain is half a years worth here. ;-) current temp 77 with 36% humidity going to 88/21. Dewpoint 46. Dave > > -- > Got Input? Slashdot Needs You. > Take our quick survey online. Come on, we don't ask for help often. > Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Got Input? Slashdot Needs You. Take our quick survey online. Come on, we don't ask for help often. Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek. http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:22 -0400 Dave wrote: > Does anyone have any experience in testing for condensation issues? I operate a couple of 802.11 wireless access points outdoors, year round. They supply my internet service, so they are "mission critical". I'm in Maryland, so temps range from +100F to perhaps -20F and humidity from almost 0 to 100%. These devices are in regular PVC electrical enclosures and I've never had condensation problems. I've lost lots to springtime lightning though :) Just to add my anecdote to the pile... Thanks, Matt -- Got Input? Slashdot Needs You. Take our quick survey online. Come on, we don't ask for help often. Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek. http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/26/2011 9:28 AM, BRIAN GLACKIN wrote: > Dave, > > Any possibility of sharing what you indtend to use the equipment for on the > rig? I am a mining engineer in the cement industry and have considered > placing remote electronics on drilling rigs and the mining equipment. Too > many other fires to hold back in the meantime have kept me from pursuing > this.. > > I recently came across some ruggedized gear for mining equipment using open > hardware and a linux OS. I am not advertising for this company but you can > see examples of the cases at 3d-p.com. The price point they quoted was a > bit high (IMO) on a per unit basis for trial work I was considering. > > Brian > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Erik Christiansen > wrote: > > I can't divulge great details since we are building the first machine and we have competitors that did not get the business, but would like to grab it if possible. We will be core drilling steel reinforced concrete with the machine. The hole depths are only a few inches. It is a very specialized application. Not mining related at this point. The four spindles will be positioned via stepper motors and screws but the drill motors will be powered via hydraulics. Since the drilling process requires cooling water, it isn't possible to drill much below 32 degrees without big problems. I think that vibration and condensation will be the two big issues. The temperature range doesn't seem to be a big problem. The machine will be heavy so I think I can manage vibration. Condensation is the last element and I'm thinking that is going to require a sealed control panel and desiccant which is changed or dried out periodically. I just don't see anyway around it. Thanks for the link. Minibox or Logic Supply sells a water proof box made for ITX motherboards that looks a lot like their smaller PCs. The enclosure is about $800 or so. The problem I have is that I will probably have a 2'x3' control panel full of components that will need protection, not just a PC or a PC and a few I/O. Dave -- Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Dave, Any possibility of sharing what you indtend to use the equipment for on the rig? I am a mining engineer in the cement industry and have considered placing remote electronics on drilling rigs and the mining equipment. Too many other fires to hold back in the meantime have kept me from pursuing this.. I recently came across some ruggedized gear for mining equipment using open hardware and a linux OS. I am not advertising for this company but you can see examples of the cases at 3d-p.com. The price point they quoted was a bit high (IMO) on a per unit basis for trial work I was considering. Brian On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote: > On 22.07.11 10:30, Dave wrote: > > Interesting.. so did you have to make any design changes to meet the > > 95% RH requirements?? > > No, the LED clock dissipated enough heat to avoid condensation at 95% > RH. With purely dissipative dropping of the 12v to the <2v across each > display segment, it effectively had an inbuilt heater. The PCB was > covered in solder resist, which excluded moisture from circuit tracks, > as well. > > [...] > > > I wasn't aware of the load dump situation.Fortunately my past mobile > > work has used a 12 to 24 volt inverter to drive the control circuits, > > otherwise that probably would have been an issue. > > As it still lives, the inverter is either adequately protected, or > hasn't experienced a load dump yet. If there's a hefty lead-acid battery > in your equipment module, then it would probably absorb a load dump from > the alternator, if it's in good nick. (Internal impedance low.) > > Erik > > -- > Westheimer's Discovery: > A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple of > hours in the library. > > > -- > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 22.07.11 10:30, Dave wrote: > Interesting.. so did you have to make any design changes to meet the > 95% RH requirements?? No, the LED clock dissipated enough heat to avoid condensation at 95% RH. With purely dissipative dropping of the 12v to the <2v across each display segment, it effectively had an inbuilt heater. The PCB was covered in solder resist, which excluded moisture from circuit tracks, as well. [...] > I wasn't aware of the load dump situation.Fortunately my past mobile > work has used a 12 to 24 volt inverter to drive the control circuits, > otherwise that probably would have been an issue. As it still lives, the inverter is either adequately protected, or hasn't experienced a load dump yet. If there's a hefty lead-acid battery in your equipment module, then it would probably absorb a load dump from the alternator, if it's in good nick. (Internal impedance low.) Erik -- Westheimer's Discovery: A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple of hours in the library. -- Storage Efficiency Calculator This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/22/2011 5:43 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote: > On 17.07.11 06:35, Dave wrote: > >> Does anyone have any experience in testing for condensation issues? >> > When I finished off the development of the first automotive digital > clock used by Ford here in Australia [1], certification testing included > temperature, humidity, vibration, and dust testing. > > The humidity testing was done in a one cubic metre environmental > chamber, with circulating fan, heating, cooling, water supply, and a > humidity controller. The latter just requires both dry-bulb and wet-bulb > thermometers to measure humidity. ISTR that we set the dry-bulb > temperature for chamber temperature, then looked up the wet-bulb > temperature required for the desired humidity, on a graph pasted to the > side of the chamber. The whole thing was about the size of a > refrigerator. The clock only had to work up to 95% RH, IIRC. > There was a bung-hole on each side, with a screwcap, for admitting leads > from test equipment. > > For the destructive temperature test, I built an insulated wooden box, > and used a bank of electric jug heating elements, controlled by a cheap > thermostat. The clocks' plastic front lenses distorted before the > electronics failed. (50°C [122 °F] was the basic test, run for some > months, but the clocks were then still fine after weeks at 80°C [176 °F]) > > Dust testing just used cement dust. It is truly amazing how that stuff > finds its way in when agitated by a fan. > > The automotive environment raises another relevant consideration; > electrical ruggedisation. The clock had to withstand a "load dump" from > the 12v alternator. If the load is suddenly removed, output jumps above > 80v for hundreds of milliseconds. (Wikipedia has seen worse: "The peak > voltage of this surge may be as high as 120 V and the surge may take up > to 400 ms to decay.") > > Instead of individually protecting each electronic unit, I proposed and > built a load-dump preventer, which clamped the whole 12v supply to 16v, > absorbing the load-dump. That was however several dollars per car more > expensive, so couldn't fly. > > External inputs can also be educational. During prototype testing in > pre-production vehicles, it was found that "the clocks died the second > time the car was started." Being an LED clock, the display was turned on > only when the ignition switch "accessories" position was energised. Not > surprisingly there were several accessories relay coils connected to > that, but the magnitude of the back-EMF on switching them off was a > surprise for an inexperienced engineer: about -800v, IIRC. Fortunately > it was easy to protect against that. > > Erik > > [1] Back in '78 > > Interesting.. so did you have to make any design changes to meet the 95% RH requirements?? I agree, cement dust is really bad stuff... I do some work around concrete processing machinery sometimes and the dust just gets everywhere. After only one day with my laptop around a processing machine.. I will be cleaning and re-cleaning the keyboard and screen many times afterwards. It also builds up on machinery and causes mechanical issues. I wasn't aware of the load dump situation.Fortunately my past mobile work has used a 12 to 24 volt inverter to drive the control circuits, otherwise that probably would have been an issue. Dave -- 10 Tips for Better Web Security Learn 10 ways to better secure your business today. Topics covered include: Web security, SSL, hacker attacks & Denial of Service (DoS), private keys, security Microsoft Exchange, secure Instant Messaging, and much more. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51426210/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 17.07.11 06:35, Dave wrote: > Does anyone have any experience in testing for condensation issues? When I finished off the development of the first automotive digital clock used by Ford here in Australia [1], certification testing included temperature, humidity, vibration, and dust testing. The humidity testing was done in a one cubic metre environmental chamber, with circulating fan, heating, cooling, water supply, and a humidity controller. The latter just requires both dry-bulb and wet-bulb thermometers to measure humidity. ISTR that we set the dry-bulb temperature for chamber temperature, then looked up the wet-bulb temperature required for the desired humidity, on a graph pasted to the side of the chamber. The whole thing was about the size of a refrigerator. The clock only had to work up to 95% RH, IIRC. There was a bung-hole on each side, with a screwcap, for admitting leads from test equipment. For the destructive temperature test, I built an insulated wooden box, and used a bank of electric jug heating elements, controlled by a cheap thermostat. The clocks' plastic front lenses distorted before the electronics failed. (50°C [122 °F] was the basic test, run for some months, but the clocks were then still fine after weeks at 80°C [176 °F]) Dust testing just used cement dust. It is truly amazing how that stuff finds its way in when agitated by a fan. The automotive environment raises another relevant consideration; electrical ruggedisation. The clock had to withstand a "load dump" from the 12v alternator. If the load is suddenly removed, output jumps above 80v for hundreds of milliseconds. (Wikipedia has seen worse: "The peak voltage of this surge may be as high as 120 V and the surge may take up to 400 ms to decay.") Instead of individually protecting each electronic unit, I proposed and built a load-dump preventer, which clamped the whole 12v supply to 16v, absorbing the load-dump. That was however several dollars per car more expensive, so couldn't fly. External inputs can also be educational. During prototype testing in pre-production vehicles, it was found that "the clocks died the second time the car was started." Being an LED clock, the display was turned on only when the ignition switch "accessories" position was energised. Not surprisingly there were several accessories relay coils connected to that, but the magnitude of the back-EMF on switching them off was a surprise for an inexperienced engineer: about -800v, IIRC. Fortunately it was easy to protect against that. Erik [1] Back in '78 -- If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything. - A. L. -- 10 Tips for Better Web Security Learn 10 ways to better secure your business today. Topics covered include: Web security, SSL, hacker attacks & Denial of Service (DoS), private keys, security Microsoft Exchange, secure Instant Messaging, and much more. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51426210/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/18/2011 6:58 PM, dave wrote: > I would/will be interesting to revisit this in 2-3 years and see how it > worked out. > I'll keep that in mind and try and revisit this with the group down the road. A solar panel trickle charger is a very good idea. Dave -- Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/18/2011 5:43 PM, gene heskett wrote: > On Monday, July 18, 2011 05:42:32 PM Dave did opine: > > >> Yes.. all you can do is to make it more difficult to remove. >> >> If someone wants it badly enoughthey will get it eventually. >> >> Dave >> >> > As long as the customer understands that. Some never do. :( So CYA. > > Cheers, gene > Fortunately these guys are pretty realistic. They have a lot of equipment so vandalism is a constant issue. Dave -- Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 17:43 -0400, gene heskett wrote: > On Monday, July 18, 2011 05:42:32 PM Dave did opine: > > > Yes.. all you can do is to make it more difficult to remove. > > > > If someone wants it badly enoughthey will get it eventually. > > > > Dave > > > As long as the customer understands that. Some never do. :( So CYA. > > Cheers, gene Just thinking out loud ... it can probably be packaged so it is not obvious that it is a computer. Of course, there always those that would be happy to trash anything they can. I thought the idea of solar for trickle charge was a good idea. I would/will be interesting to revisit this in 2-3 years and see how it worked out. Dave -- Storage Efficiency Calculator This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Monday, July 18, 2011 05:42:32 PM Dave did opine: > Yes.. all you can do is to make it more difficult to remove. > > If someone wants it badly enoughthey will get it eventually. > > Dave > As long as the customer understands that. Some never do. :( So CYA. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "His eyes were cold. As cold as the bitter winter snow that was falling outside. Yes, cold and therefore difficult to chew..." -- Storage Efficiency Calculator This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/18/2011 3:52 PM, gene heskett wrote: > On Monday, July 18, 2011 03:49:40 PM Dave did opine: > > >> On 7/17/2011 7:29 PM, gene heskett wrote: >> >>> On Sunday, July 17, 2011 07:25:15 PM dave did opine: >>> On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 23:10 -0700, Karl Cunningham wrote: > Dave wrote: > >> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC >> boards etc... if possible. >> >> Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they >> also want it to work and operate reliably. >> >> I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on >> machines that operate outside, but I have always been able to >> include a panel heater to minimize condensation issues. >> >> Do you guys have any suggestions? >> > My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and > installing power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember > from that: > > 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them > topped up with a solar panel when sitting. > 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a > battery charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully > charged when it's time to start it. > 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an > insulated box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to > heat the batteries slightly. > 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. > 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and > run in time to keep things from overheating. > 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may > have more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable > over a wider temperature range. > > Karl > I'm impressed by the advice that comes from this group. Good thoughts. On overnight reflection on the problem I think it might be easier to put the computer and monitor in a portable case which get stored in a decent environment and taken to the job and mounted on the rig. Open the lid and that exposes the keyboard. Monitor is external and clips on. Once the rig is up and running then power can be supplied to keep things warm/cool. Take a look a some of the packaging for mil field computers/equipment. HTH Dave >>> While I generally agree, the computers off-rig storage raises the >>> thought that they may not keep it when off-rig, in a well secured >>> place, inviting pilferage& then you start re-inventing that wheel >>> again, and BTW, their first question is going to be "can you make >>> another one for delivery yesterday?" >>> >> I agree... I don't think the customer is going to want the added burden >> of transporting the controls back and forth to the machine. They have >> various crews also.. >> >> What if they forget to bring the case and then drive 50 miles through >> the back country... >> >> I can see them losing it also - especially after a long winter - some >> personnel changes etc... >> >> I want to make the controls removable, but require that several bolts be >> removed along with perhaps a high strength padlock. >> >> Dave >> >> > Good idea, but where is the cutting torch? Around a drill rig there is > probably one on every other truck. This then becomes a cat& mouse game. > OTOH, its probably the best 'retainer' idea yet. > > Cheers, gene > Yes.. all you can do is to make it more difficult to remove. If someone wants it badly enoughthey will get it eventually. Dave -- Storage Efficiency Calculator This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Monday, July 18, 2011 03:49:40 PM Dave did opine: > On 7/17/2011 7:29 PM, gene heskett wrote: > > On Sunday, July 17, 2011 07:25:15 PM dave did opine: > >> On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 23:10 -0700, Karl Cunningham wrote: > >>> Dave wrote: > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC > boards etc... if possible. > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they > also want it to work and operate reliably. > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on > machines that operate outside, but I have always been able to > include a panel heater to minimize condensation issues. > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > >>> > >>> My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and > >>> installing power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember > >>> from that: > >>> > >>> 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them > >>> topped up with a solar panel when sitting. > >>> 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a > >>> battery charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully > >>> charged when it's time to start it. > >>> 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an > >>> insulated box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to > >>> heat the batteries slightly. > >>> 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. > >>> 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and > >>> run in time to keep things from overheating. > >>> 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may > >>> have more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable > >>> over a wider temperature range. > >>> > >>> Karl > >> > >> I'm impressed by the advice that comes from this group. Good > >> thoughts. > >> > >> On overnight reflection on the problem I think it might be easier to > >> put the computer and monitor in a portable case which get stored in > >> a decent environment and taken to the job and mounted on the rig. > >> Open the lid and that exposes the keyboard. Monitor is external and > >> clips on. Once the rig is up and running then power can be supplied > >> to keep things warm/cool. > >> > >> Take a look a some of the packaging for mil field > >> computers/equipment. > >> > >> HTH > >> > >> Dave > > > > While I generally agree, the computers off-rig storage raises the > > thought that they may not keep it when off-rig, in a well secured > > place, inviting pilferage& then you start re-inventing that wheel > > again, and BTW, their first question is going to be "can you make > > another one for delivery yesterday?" > > I agree... I don't think the customer is going to want the added burden > of transporting the controls back and forth to the machine. They have > various crews also.. > > What if they forget to bring the case and then drive 50 miles through > the back country... > > I can see them losing it also - especially after a long winter - some > personnel changes etc... > > I want to make the controls removable, but require that several bolts be > removed along with perhaps a high strength padlock. > > Dave > Good idea, but where is the cutting torch? Around a drill rig there is probably one on every other truck. This then becomes a cat & mouse game. OTOH, its probably the best 'retainer' idea yet. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) It's better to burn out than to fade away. -- Storage Efficiency Calculator This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/17/2011 7:29 PM, gene heskett wrote: > On Sunday, July 17, 2011 07:25:15 PM dave did opine: > > >> On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 23:10 -0700, Karl Cunningham wrote: >> >>> Dave wrote: >>> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards etc... if possible. Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also want it to work and operate reliably. I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel heater to minimize condensation issues. Do you guys have any suggestions? >>> My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and >>> installing power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember >>> from that: >>> >>> 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them >>> topped up with a solar panel when sitting. >>> 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a >>> battery charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully >>> charged when it's time to start it. >>> 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an >>> insulated box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to >>> heat the batteries slightly. >>> 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. >>> 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and >>> run in time to keep things from overheating. >>> 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may have >>> more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable over a >>> wider temperature range. >>> >>> Karl >>> >> I'm impressed by the advice that comes from this group. Good thoughts. >> >> On overnight reflection on the problem I think it might be easier to put >> the computer and monitor in a portable case which get stored in a >> decent environment and taken to the job and mounted on the rig. Open the >> lid and that exposes the keyboard. Monitor is external and clips on. >> Once the rig is up and running then power can be supplied to keep things >> warm/cool. >> >> Take a look a some of the packaging for mil field computers/equipment. >> >> HTH >> >> Dave >> >> > While I generally agree, the computers off-rig storage raises the thought > that they may not keep it when off-rig, in a well secured place, inviting > pilferage& then you start re-inventing that wheel again, and BTW, their > first question is going to be "can you make another one for delivery > yesterday?" > > I agree... I don't think the customer is going to want the added burden of transporting the controls back and forth to the machine. They have various crews also.. What if they forget to bring the case and then drive 50 miles through the back country... I can see them losing it also - especially after a long winter - some personnel changes etc... I want to make the controls removable, but require that several bolts be removed along with perhaps a high strength padlock. Dave -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
I've heard of people running into trouble with submersion cooled computers - the liquid increases the capacitance between high frequency traces and causes the computer to lock up. I assume that PCB conformal coating is specifically designed to avoid this problem. Mark On Jul 17, 2011 4:34 PM, "Dave" wrote: > On 7/17/2011 9:25 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: >> 2011/7/17 Dave: >> >>> When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? That is >>> very interesting.. >>> >> That can be any mineral oil - they are not conductive. There are many >> vids on Youtube, how PCs are put in oil and they keep working. Even >> gasoline is non-conductive, so You can submerge a PC in it :)) >> >> So You just need to create a casing, put PC in it and then fill it >> with oil or some other material, so that there is not air and thus no >> condensate in it. >> >> The toughest part, as mentioned before, is monitor. >> >> Viesturs >> >> > > I don't know about using gasoline what if a technician who is > smoking opens the control panel.. 8-0 > > So what you are saying is that I could install the machine controls > inside the machine's hydraulic oil tank? ;-) > > I don't know if I want to go that route If I have to tweak the > controls I will have to drain the hydraulics first. > > This could also give new meaning to the terms "oil tight pushbutton" and > "drip proof" control panels.. :-) > > > > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 18 July 2011 13:57, Dave wrote: > Do you use real lacquer (I think that Minwax still sells it) or do you > use some type of polyurethane finish or something like that?? As an example, there seem to be a number of dedicated laquers for coating PCBs, all with slightly different properties. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/workshop-consumables/paints-lacquers-corrosion-control/protective-coatings/ Conformal coating is probably closest (though solder-through ability is probably not relevant to a motherboard) -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Dan, Do you use real lacquer (I think that Minwax still sells it) or do you use some type of polyurethane finish or something like that?? Dave On 7/17/2011 4:14 PM, k...@gmail.com wrote: > If you go with a standard PC motherboard, I would get a can of clear lacquer > and apply 2 coats to both sides of the board and components. > I have aging industrial electronics in my shop that get weird in summer when > humidity peaks. > I have successfully eliminated -some- of the weirdness by sealing out > moisture as per the above method. > > dan k > > > >>> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:48 -0400 >>> From: e...@dc9.tzo.com >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> Subject: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile >>> > application > >>> >>> Hi Guys.. >>> >>> I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that >>> defines the term "rugged". >>> >>> The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the >>> software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. >>> >>> The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling >>> equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an >>> alternator into a set of batteries. >>> >>> The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should >>> be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine >>> will only be used once in a while. >>> >>> This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being >>> used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel >>> heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using >>> some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels >>> to avoid a condensation problem. >>> >>> I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since >>> there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep >>> the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the >>> temperature range. They could be >>> using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. >>> They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes >>> or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. >>> This might be after the machine has been >>> sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in >>> Colorado >>> >>> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards >>> etc... if possible. >>> >>> Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also >>> want it to work and operate reliably. >>> >>> I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines >>> that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel >>> heater to minimize condensation issues. >>> >>> Do you guys have any suggestions? >>> >>> Dave >>> > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
2011/7/17 Dave : > > I don't know about using gasoline what if a technician who is > smoking opens the control panel.. 8-0 > The gasoline part was not meant to be serious :))) I just remembered that my car had fuel pump right in gasoline tank and the wires were not sealed, which just proves that gasoline is not electrically conductive. > > So what you are saying is that I could install the machine controls > inside the machine's hydraulic oil tank? ;-) > > I don't know if I want to go that route If I have to tweak the > controls I will have to drain the hydraulics first. > Basically yes - that is the suggestion. I totally agree that it is not the way to go, if You know, that You will need to adjust some hardware. In one of those youtube vids that I was referring to, they also pointed out that this solution is nice until one needs to change some hardware - add ram, change hdd etc, because the oil is _everywhere_ But the implementation is really cost efficient! Viesturs -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Jaap Stolk wrote: > it's actually called "silicone potting", a google image search turns > up many examples. Be careful that it's the electrical-compatible---ordinary commercial silicon RTV compounds release acetic acid and will corrode metals (connectors, wires, traces) around it. -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sunday, July 17, 2011 07:25:15 PM dave did opine: > On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 23:10 -0700, Karl Cunningham wrote: > > Dave wrote: > > > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC > > > boards etc... if possible. > > > > > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they > > > also want it to work and operate reliably. > > > > > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on > > > machines that operate outside, but I have always been able to > > > include a panel heater to minimize condensation issues. > > > > > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > > > > My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and > > installing power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember > > from that: > > > > 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them > > topped up with a solar panel when sitting. > > 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a > > battery charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully > > charged when it's time to start it. > > 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an > > insulated box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to > > heat the batteries slightly. > > 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. > > 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and > > run in time to keep things from overheating. > > 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may have > > more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable over a > > wider temperature range. > > > > Karl > > I'm impressed by the advice that comes from this group. Good thoughts. > > On overnight reflection on the problem I think it might be easier to put > the computer and monitor in a portable case which get stored in a > decent environment and taken to the job and mounted on the rig. Open the > lid and that exposes the keyboard. Monitor is external and clips on. > Once the rig is up and running then power can be supplied to keep things > warm/cool. > > Take a look a some of the packaging for mil field computers/equipment. > > HTH > > Dave > While I generally agree, the computers off-rig storage raises the thought that they may not keep it when off-rig, in a well secured place, inviting pilferage & then you start re-inventing that wheel again, and BTW, their first question is going to be "can you make another one for delivery yesterday?" > > -- > > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community > > by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean > > Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your > > ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by > Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. -- Mark Twain -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/17/2011 7:07 AM, andy pugh wrote: > On 17 July 2011 03:01, andy pugh wrote: > > >> The display is likely to be the problem. You might even want to >> consider a CRT, because at least then condensation can't get behind >> the glass. >> > Thinking about this some more, you might need to use a CRT, as LCD > displays stop working when they get cold. We notice this with the > colour LCD dashboards on some cars when we do climate testing. I think > that the trouble starts at around -20C / 0F. > > > I just need it to work down to 20F or sobut I will have to do some testing. Dave -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/17/2011 9:25 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2011/7/17 Dave: > >> When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? That is >> very interesting.. >> > That can be any mineral oil - they are not conductive. There are many > vids on Youtube, how PCs are put in oil and they keep working. Even > gasoline is non-conductive, so You can submerge a PC in it :)) > > So You just need to create a casing, put PC in it and then fill it > with oil or some other material, so that there is not air and thus no > condensate in it. > > The toughest part, as mentioned before, is monitor. > > Viesturs > > I don't know about using gasoline what if a technician who is smoking opens the control panel.. 8-0 So what you are saying is that I could install the machine controls inside the machine's hydraulic oil tank? ;-) I don't know if I want to go that route If I have to tweak the controls I will have to drain the hydraulics first. This could also give new meaning to the terms "oil tight pushbutton" and "drip proof" control panels.. :-) -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Jaap Stolk wrote: > On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Dave wrote: >> When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? > > No, like gene, I meant something like this: > http://fongyong.en.alibaba.com/product/431565542-212336882/RTV_2_electrical_electronic_silicone_potting_casting_compounds_sealant.html > Although they used something that had a clear but matt color. > > it's actually called "silicone potting", a google image search turns > up many examples. > The main thing is that it's somewhat heat-conducting, remains flexible > and prevents any (salt) water from getting at the electronics. Forgot to mention. If potting gets into connectors, potentiometers, or switches the surface tension can wedge contacts apart, leaving opens and intermittants. Best to either solder or keep the potting out of these. Karl -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Jaap Stolk wrote: > On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Dave wrote: >> When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? > > No, like gene, I meant something like this: > http://fongyong.en.alibaba.com/product/431565542-212336882/RTV_2_electrical_electronic_silicone_potting_casting_compounds_sealant.html > Although they used something that had a clear but matt color. > > it's actually called "silicone potting", a google image search turns > up many examples. > The main thing is that it's somewhat heat-conducting, remains flexible > and prevents any (salt) water from getting at the electronics. I agree. We use GE RTV-615. It's clear if de-aired with vacuum after mixing. About 2.5 times the heat conductivity of still air. Can be cut with a knife for mods/repair and more poured in to seal it up. Pricey though. Karl -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Dave wrote: > When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? No, like gene, I meant something like this: http://fongyong.en.alibaba.com/product/431565542-212336882/RTV_2_electrical_electronic_silicone_potting_casting_compounds_sealant.html Although they used something that had a clear but matt color. it's actually called "silicone potting", a google image search turns up many examples. The main thing is that it's somewhat heat-conducting, remains flexible and prevents any (salt) water from getting at the electronics. -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 23:10 -0700, Karl Cunningham wrote: > Dave wrote: > > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards > > etc... if possible. > > > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also > > want it to work and operate reliably. > > > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines > > that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel > > heater to minimize condensation issues. > > > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > > My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and installing > power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember from that: > > 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them > topped up with a solar panel when sitting. > 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a battery > charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully charged > when it's time to start it. > 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an insulated > box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to heat the > batteries slightly. > 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. > 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and run > in time to keep things from overheating. > 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may have > more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable over a > wider temperature range. > > Karl I'm impressed by the advice that comes from this group. Good thoughts. On overnight reflection on the problem I think it might be easier to put the computer and monitor in a portable case which get stored in a decent environment and taken to the job and mounted on the rig. Open the lid and that exposes the keyboard. Monitor is external and clips on. Once the rig is up and running then power can be supplied to keep things warm/cool. Take a look a some of the packaging for mil field computers/equipment. HTH Dave > > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:51:23 AM Dave did opine: > On 7/17/2011 5:36 AM, Jaap Stolk wrote: > > I have seen electronics on sea buoys. It's mounted in a simple PVC > > box, then all wires are connected, then it is filled to the edge with > > some silicone gel, after setting, the lid is screwed on. Even all > > heatsinks are completely submerged in the gel. > > > > -- > > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community > > by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean > > Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your > > ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? That is > very interesting.. > > Dave Dave, I took it that he was referring to something along the lines of a silicon RTV, comes in sealed containers that resemble caulk but have to be mixed by breaking the catalyst before application. Generally light tan in color when cured. What I have used is not generally liquid enough to fill the fins of a heat sink, but is generally thermally conductive. We filled the ends of the Titan 1's umbilical cables with it. Electrical leakages are quite low, but in my experience, it won't pass a hi-pot either. Leakage at computer voltages would be zilch however. Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) It's so beautifully arranged on the plate -- you know someone's fingers have been all over it. -- Julia Child on nouvelle cuisine. -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
2011/7/17 Dave : > > When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? That is > very interesting.. That can be any mineral oil - they are not conductive. There are many vids on Youtube, how PCs are put in oil and they keep working. Even gasoline is non-conductive, so You can submerge a PC in it :)) So You just need to create a casing, put PC in it and then fill it with oil or some other material, so that there is not air and thus no condensate in it. The toughest part, as mentioned before, is monitor. Viesturs -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/17/2011 5:36 AM, Jaap Stolk wrote: > I have seen electronics on sea buoys. It's mounted in a simple PVC > box, then all wires are connected, then it is filled to the edge with > some silicone gel, after setting, the lid is screwed on. Even all > heatsinks are completely submerged in the gel. > > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > When you say "gel", do you mean the desiccant gel beads? That is very interesting.. Dave -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/17/2011 12:48 AM, dave wrote: > On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 01:30 +, James Reed wrote: > >> You can do the same thing electricians do in an explosion-proof enclosure. >> The idea of an explosion proof enclosure is not to prevent the vapors from >> entering the enclosure, but to contain any explosion that could occur inside >> the enclosure. ( Kind of re-assuring, isn't it?) When these enclosures have >> threaded openings, they have 2 to 4 times as many threads as the >> non-explosion proof openings, and they have larger or square openings with >> large flanges and usually gaskets. In order to meet code, the conduit which >> leads to these enclosures have to have a conduit seal with putty or epoxy in >> them to prevent the flow or explosion from/to other places. It's actually >> more complicated than this, but this is the kind of detail that you will >> want to know. >> >> You don't have to go explosion proof, but can copy their techniques. >> >> I would be leery of putting batteries in a totally enclosed box, though. >> >> >>> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:48 -0400 >>> From: e...@dc9.tzo.com >>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> Subject: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile >>> application >>> >>> >>> Hi Guys.. >>> >>> I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that >>> defines the term "rugged". >>> >>> The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the >>> software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. >>> >>> The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling >>> equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an >>> alternator into a set of batteries. >>> >>> The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should >>> be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine >>> will only be used once in a while. >>> >>> This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being >>> used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel >>> heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using >>> some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels >>> to avoid a condensation problem. >>> >>> I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since >>> there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep >>> the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the >>> temperature range. They could be >>> using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. >>> They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes >>> or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. >>> This might be after the machine has been >>> sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in >>> Colorado >>> >>> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards >>> etc... if possible. >>> >>> Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also >>> want it to work and operate reliably. >>> >>> I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines >>> that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel >>> heater to minimize condensation issues. >>> >>> Do you guys have any suggestions? >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> > That IS a demanding application: > Problems: > a. temp range -30 to -40 F to maybe 110 F. > b. the need to be up and running in 5 min implies > pretty steep temp gradients upon start-up if it is cold. > c. good cooling in the summer. > d. keep alive and probably desulfation for the > batteries. > e. hard disks really don't turn very well when cold so > some kind of bulk semiconductor memory is probably > indicated. > > Still it does sound like a challenge and should keep life from > getting dull. > > Good luck. > > Dave > > > The operating temp range is probably 20-120 degrees F.If it is below about 20 degrees they will not be able to drill since the system requires cooling water. They could probably add antifreeze but below 20 degrees, drilling is probably not practical. The batteries are their problems...fortunately. :-)They will probably use AGM batteries in order to eliminate some storage issues. I was thinking of using either a CF card as a "hard drive" or go with a solid state hard drive to eliminate the rotating hard disk vulnerability. >>does sound like a challenge and should keep life from getting dull. Yes, it seems like once I put a control system together for a customer I tend to "own" it forever.I get calls from customers 5+ years after an installation asking for help or advice. I am surprised how reliable most of the equipment is. Usually their issues are mechanical or maint
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 17 July 2011 03:01, andy pugh wrote: > The display is likely to be the problem. You might even want to > consider a CRT, because at least then condensation can't get behind > the glass. Thinking about this some more, you might need to use a CRT, as LCD displays stop working when they get cold. We notice this with the colour LCD dashboards on some cars when we do climate testing. I think that the trouble starts at around -20C / 0F. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/16/2011 10:21 PM, Kent A. Reed wrote: > Dave, I wouldn't waste my time trying to beef up a consumer-grade > computer. There are many industrial- and military-grade i86 computers > available commercially that you could start from. > > The rub is your characterization "Being a typical customer, they want to > keep the costs down but they also want it to work and operate reliably." > > Remind them that of the trilogy good-fast-cheap, they can choose any > two. Off-the-shelf ruggedness costs money. Trying to build in ruggedness > after the fact (and testing to make sure you succeeded) costs time and > labor which equals money, but you know that :-) > > Good luck! > > Regards, > Kent > > I've worked with a lot of industrial computers and most are really just slightly hardened quality consumer grade products. They add a few shock mounts sometimes and then test/alter/test them until they meet specs.The true military grade equipment is very expensive, but of course robust. I may design the controls so the control "panel" can be quickly removed and replaced if needed in case something goes wrong. These machine will be operating off-road, sometimes 50+ miles from any place that looks like a town so on-site troubleshooting is not really practical. There won't be any "technicians" nearby as is common in an industrial plant to do some basic troubleshooting. Most of the repairman will be equipped with the tools required to repair heavy equipment. Dave -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 7/16/2011 10:18 PM, gene heskett wrote: > On Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:03:15 PM Dave did opine: > > >> Hi Guys.. >> >> I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that >> defines the term "rugged". >> >> The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the >> software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. >> >> The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling >> equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an >> alternator into a set of batteries. >> >> The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should >> be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine >> will only be used once in a while. >> >> This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being >> used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel >> heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using >> some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels >> to avoid a condensation problem. >> >> I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since >> there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep >> the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the >> temperature range. They could be >> using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. >> They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes >> or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. >> This might be after the machine has been >> sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in >> Colorado >> >> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards >> etc... if possible. >> >> Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also >> want it to work and operate reliably. >> >> I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines >> that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel >> heater to minimize condensation issues. >> >> Do you guys have any suggestions? >> >> Dave >> >> > I'd go with the desiccant setup, but would rig it so when there is power, > the desiccant would be vented to the outside, with a heater good for about > 250F to recycle the desiccant each time the power is available. > > We use such rigs to keep dry air in rigid coaxial lines. Loaded with teeny > solenoid valves that reroute the plumbing when it is time to recycle the > desiccant. > > For this scene, I'd just put it in a container that is largely open to the > inside of the housing, like a S. S. bowl, but when power becomes available, > open 2 vents so air can move across the container, and fire up a fan at the > same time to exhaust the moisture driven off by the heat. That should keep > 20 lbs it in decent shape if power was available for 4+ hours per use over > a year I'd think. You'll need enough heat to hit the boiling point even in > 10F weather though. > > Any danger of it being jostled enough to spill the bowl? > > Cheers, gene > Are there companies that sell desiccant based drying systems like you describe? Or are they mostly custom built? Yes, the entire machine will be designed so it can be picked up with a crane and loaded onto a trailer so there will be plenty of jostling. I can probably have a generator attached to the engine to produce 120 or 240 volt power if needed to produce a few KW of power. That may be needed anyway. Dave -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
I have seen conformal coating but I have no experience applying it. I would think it could create hot spots on some motherboards if it was not carefully applied. Does anyone have any experience in testing for condensation issues? I have done simple temperature tests on some systems to check for fan effectiveness, enclose computer in a box and allow it to heat up, monitor board and heat sink temps etc..but I have no idea how to test for condensation issues... Dave On 7/16/2011 10:01 PM, andy pugh wrote: > On 16 July 2011 23:58, Dave wrote: > > >> Do you guys have any suggestions? >> > I suspect that a layer of conformal coating on the PC motherboard > after assembly (including attaching connectors) would mean that that > didn't care about condensation. > The display is likely to be the problem. You might even want to > consider a CRT, because at least then condensation can't get behind > the glass. > > A hermetically sealed enclosure and a tray of dessicant might work. > > -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
I've worked on explosion proof systems so the idea of using what we called "seal-offs" is a good idea to contain the air in the cabinets. Dave On 7/16/2011 9:30 PM, James Reed wrote: > You can do the same thing electricians do in an explosion-proof enclosure. > The idea of an explosion proof enclosure is not to prevent the vapors from > entering the enclosure, but to contain any explosion that could occur inside > the enclosure. ( Kind of re-assuring, isn't it?) When these enclosures have > threaded openings, they have 2 to 4 times as many threads as the > non-explosion proof openings, and they have larger or square openings with > large flanges and usually gaskets. In order to meet code, the conduit which > leads to these enclosures have to have a conduit seal with putty or epoxy in > them to prevent the flow or explosion from/to other places. It's actually > more complicated than this, but this is the kind of detail that you will want > to know. > > You don't have to go explosion proof, but can copy their techniques. > > I would be leery of putting batteries in a totally enclosed box, though. > > >> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:48 -0400 >> From: e...@dc9.tzo.com >> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> Subject: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile >> application >> >> >> Hi Guys.. >> >> I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that >> defines the term "rugged". >> >> The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the >> software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. >> >> The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling >> equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an >> alternator into a set of batteries. >> >> The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should >> be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine >> will only be used once in a while. >> >> This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being >> used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel >> heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using >> some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels >> to avoid a condensation problem. >> >> I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since >> there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep >> the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the >> temperature range. They could be >> using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. >> They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes >> or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. >> This might be after the machine has been >> sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in >> Colorado >> >> I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards >> etc... if possible. >> >> Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also >> want it to work and operate reliably. >> >> I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines >> that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel >> heater to minimize condensation issues. >> >> Do you guys have any suggestions? >> >> Dave >> > -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
I have seen electronics on sea buoys. It's mounted in a simple PVC box, then all wires are connected, then it is filled to the edge with some silicone gel, after setting, the lid is screwed on. Even all heatsinks are completely submerged in the gel. -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Dave wrote: > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards > etc... if possible. > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also > want it to work and operate reliably. > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines > that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel > heater to minimize condensation issues. > > Do you guys have any suggestions? My son worked in Antarctica for several years, designing and installing power equipment at field camps. Here's what I remember from that: 1. Use gel-type lead-acid batteries for generator staring. Keep them topped up with a solar panel when sitting. 2. If there is a block heater on the generator engine, connect a battery charger to the same power source, so the batteries are fully charged when it's time to start it. 3. If it's really cold, -20F or below, put the batteries in an insulated box and use a little of the battery/solar panel juice to heat the batteries slightly. 4. Use solid-state hard drives. Much better for vibration and cold. 5. Computer fans probably won't start cold, but they'll warm up and run in time to keep things from overheating. 6. Stick with name-brand computer mother board and RAM. They may have more conservative timing margins which will be more reliable over a wider temperature range. Karl -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 01:30 +, James Reed wrote: > You can do the same thing electricians do in an explosion-proof enclosure. > The idea of an explosion proof enclosure is not to prevent the vapors from > entering the enclosure, but to contain any explosion that could occur inside > the enclosure. ( Kind of re-assuring, isn't it?) When these enclosures have > threaded openings, they have 2 to 4 times as many threads as the > non-explosion proof openings, and they have larger or square openings with > large flanges and usually gaskets. In order to meet code, the conduit which > leads to these enclosures have to have a conduit seal with putty or epoxy in > them to prevent the flow or explosion from/to other places. It's actually > more complicated than this, but this is the kind of detail that you will want > to know. > > You don't have to go explosion proof, but can copy their techniques. > > I would be leery of putting batteries in a totally enclosed box, though. > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:48 -0400 > > From: e...@dc9.tzo.com > > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile > > application > > > > > > Hi Guys.. > > > > I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that > > defines the term "rugged". > > > > The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the > > software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. > > > > The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling > > equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an > > alternator into a set of batteries. > > > > The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should > > be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine > > will only be used once in a while. > > > > This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being > > used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel > > heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using > > some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels > > to avoid a condensation problem. > > > > I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since > > there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep > > the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the > > temperature range. They could be > > using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. > > They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes > > or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. > > This might be after the machine has been > > sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in > > Colorado > > > > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards > > etc... if possible. > > > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also > > want it to work and operate reliably. > > > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines > > that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel > > heater to minimize condensation issues. > > > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > > > > Dave > > That IS a demanding application: Problems: a. temp range -30 to -40 F to maybe 110 F. b. the need to be up and running in 5 min implies pretty steep temp gradients upon start-up if it is cold. c. good cooling in the summer. d. keep alive and probably desulfation for the batteries. e. hard disks really don't turn very well when cold so some kind of bulk semiconductor memory is probably indicated. Still it does sound like a challenge and should keep life from getting dull. Good luck. Dave > > > > > > -- > > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
Dave, I wouldn't waste my time trying to beef up a consumer-grade computer. There are many industrial- and military-grade i86 computers available commercially that you could start from. The rub is your characterization "Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also want it to work and operate reliably." Remind them that of the trilogy good-fast-cheap, they can choose any two. Off-the-shelf ruggedness costs money. Trying to build in ruggedness after the fact (and testing to make sure you succeeded) costs time and labor which equals money, but you know that :-) Good luck! Regards, Kent -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:03:15 PM Dave did opine: > Hi Guys.. > > I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that > defines the term "rugged". > > The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the > software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. > > The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling > equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an > alternator into a set of batteries. > > The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should > be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine > will only be used once in a while. > > This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being > used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel > heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using > some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels > to avoid a condensation problem. > > I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since > there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep > the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the > temperature range. They could be > using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. > They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes > or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. > This might be after the machine has been > sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in > Colorado > > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards > etc... if possible. > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also > want it to work and operate reliably. > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines > that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel > heater to minimize condensation issues. > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > > Dave > I'd go with the desiccant setup, but would rig it so when there is power, the desiccant would be vented to the outside, with a heater good for about 250F to recycle the desiccant each time the power is available. We use such rigs to keep dry air in rigid coaxial lines. Loaded with teeny solenoid valves that reroute the plumbing when it is time to recycle the desiccant. For this scene, I'd just put it in a container that is largely open to the inside of the housing, like a S. S. bowl, but when power becomes available, open 2 vents so air can move across the container, and fire up a fan at the same time to exhaust the moisture driven off by the heat. That should keep 20 lbs it in decent shape if power was available for 4+ hours per use over a year I'd think. You'll need enough heat to hit the boiling point even in 10F weather though. Any danger of it being jostled enough to spill the bowl? Cheers, gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Barth's Distinction: There are two types of people: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't. -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
On 16 July 2011 23:58, Dave wrote: > Do you guys have any suggestions? I suspect that a layer of conformal coating on the PC motherboard after assembly (including attaching connectors) would mean that that didn't care about condensation. The display is likely to be the problem. You might even want to consider a CRT, because at least then condensation can't get behind the glass. A hermetically sealed enclosure and a tray of dessicant might work. -- atp "Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile application
You can do the same thing electricians do in an explosion-proof enclosure. The idea of an explosion proof enclosure is not to prevent the vapors from entering the enclosure, but to contain any explosion that could occur inside the enclosure. ( Kind of re-assuring, isn't it?) When these enclosures have threaded openings, they have 2 to 4 times as many threads as the non-explosion proof openings, and they have larger or square openings with large flanges and usually gaskets. In order to meet code, the conduit which leads to these enclosures have to have a conduit seal with putty or epoxy in them to prevent the flow or explosion from/to other places. It's actually more complicated than this, but this is the kind of detail that you will want to know. You don't have to go explosion proof, but can copy their techniques. I would be leery of putting batteries in a totally enclosed box, though. > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:58:48 -0400 > From: e...@dc9.tzo.com > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: [Emc-users] Using a PC in extended temperature ranges and mobile > application > > > Hi Guys.. > > I am considering using EMC2 (or part of it) in a mobile application that > defines the term "rugged". > > The application itself is pretty simple so I am not worried about the > software. I am worried about the survival of the hardware. > > The equipment will be mounted in a box on a piece of drilling > equipment. Power will be supplied via a diesel engine driving an > alternator into a set of batteries. > > The drilling equipment is rotary - no impact - so the vibration should > be reasonable if I shock mount the control panel. However the machine > will only be used once in a while. > > This machine will live outside year around.When it is not being > used, the machine will be un-powered so I have no way of putting a panel > heater in the box to keep out condensation. I'm thinking about using > some type of desiccant system?? to keep the humidity down in the panels > to avoid a condensation problem. > > I'm really not concerned about the higher range of temperatures since > there will be a roof over the control panel so I should be able to keep > the sun off it. I am mostly concerned about the low end of the > temperature range. They could be > using this drilling machine in temps as low as 20 degrees F or so. > They will expect to be able to start up the engine, run it for 5 minutes > or so and then flip on the controls and have them function properly. > This might be after the machine has been > sitting for a few months outside in places like the Rocky Mountains in > Colorado > > I'd like to use as many off the shelf devices as possible - PC boards > etc... if possible. > > Being a typical customer, they want to keep the costs down but they also > want it to work and operate reliably. > > I've had good luck using conventional industrial controls on machines > that operate outside, but I have always been able to include a panel > heater to minimize condensation issues. > > Do you guys have any suggestions? > > Dave > > > > > > -- > AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric > Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup > Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, > optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- AppSumo Presents a FREE Video for the SourceForge Community by Eric Ries, the creator of the Lean Startup Methodology on "Lean Startup Secrets Revealed." This video shows you how to validate your ideas, optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
