Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Nice story! New EV’s are almost boring already 😆 No tinkering.

Taking older Leaf to -25C and for a longer road trip is a time machine to
SLA era. Oh that pain with 30-40 mile range.

Not in too distant future we’ll have 1000 mile range EV’s. That’ll provide
some more of that EV grin.

Interesting to see what are the next things in the EVolution. First it was
the silence and acceleration and easy to drive. Next it seemed to be iPad
on the wheels and now AC output for casual power needs. Self driving has
been coming for years.

Any thoughts what’s next to grin about?

-Jukka


pe 7.7.2023 klo 8.12 Seth Rothenberg via EV  kirjoitti:

> Hello EVDLrs.
>
> After 7 years of lots of grins and a few pouts,
> we decided it's time for another EV.
>
> The Leaf was borderline adequate for my 60+ mile commute,
> but required a small additional boost when traffic forced me to go the long
> way.
> Then Covid hit and I went to 99.9% remote.
>
> Visits to my brother at 150 miles round trip were really hard in the Leaf.
> In 7 years, one of those dozens of trips led to a tow for the last mile.
>
> Then my wife's ICE car started (continued) to fall apart.
>
> We bought a 2021 Kona EV.   My neighbor (and his wife) sold me on the
> Ultimate.
>
> In the past 2 weeks, I made one trip to my brother (much easier now) and
> there was a trip to the mountains, 95 miles each way,
> and drove up a second time, this time with several passengers.
>
> This car gives quite an EVgrin.
> There is even room for a Stench Cord and level 1 charger for
> opportunity charging.
>
> When the Toyota Sienna ICE van Registration expires, we will be Gas-free.
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Solid electrolytes are very important next step in the li-ion development.
And specifically ones with stable anodes. Not li-metal ones that is.

When the whole cell is solid there’s just intercalation going on in every
stage when the ion moves. Meaning there is no chemical decomposition
happening. And what that means? Li-ion cells with +50 year life expectancy.

What’s nuts about this is that we’re witnessing significant price drop at
the same time lifetime keeps growing. For EV that’s nice but for grid tied
energy storage this is the major driver for exponential market growth. BESS
segment will be 10x compared to automotive. At some point EV’s will start
enjoying the scale up benefits and prices keep dropping. Raw material cost
of a functional LFP cell is around $8/kWh. We’re heading to that level
before 2035.

Literature is vast and probably most can be absorbed from scientific papers
online.

The Limiting Factor youtube channel is also nice source. Jordan really puts
plenty of effort to get facts to viewers.

https://youtube.com/@thelimitingfactor

-Jukka

to 15.12.2022 klo 0.07 Lawrence Winiarski 
kirjoitti:

>
> I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of
> different reasons.I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in
> general chemical
> reactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted byproducts and
> side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be completely eliminated,
> only
> reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different
> ways...good and bad.
>
> Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?
> (especially Lifepo4 related)
>
> You'd think this was a highly important subject.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
> ”news”. :)
>
> Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
> layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.
>
> In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
> millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
> for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
> ideas to be tested.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> kirjoitti:
>
> > Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> > respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> > degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> > paragraph:
> > Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> > loses charge capacity
> >
> >
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
> >
> > " An international research team from the University of New South
> > Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> > claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> > alternative to current battery technologies."
> >
> > Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
”news”. :)

Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.

In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
ideas to be tested.

-Jukka


ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV  kirjoitti:

> Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> paragraph:
> Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> loses charge capacity
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
>
> " An international research team from the University of New South
> Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> alternative to current battery technologies."
>
> Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
> ___
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>
>
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[EVDL] Charging payment system costs. Was: BYD Blade

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The thing is one full tank of gasoline is (at least in here) around
$80-100. That is much more than the 40-50 kWh with normal electricity
prices (~10c/kWh) which is only $4-5 per charge. People here stare at that
cost and avoid all expensive charging sites. People always seek free charge
because there are plenty of places who do that.

Also the volume. Normally one gas station serves hundreds of clients in one
day and might have even groceries and other stuff for sale.

At EV charging stations there is less volume, cheaper product and no
additional revenues from other products.

And that is the reason why everyone has a hard time enabling the charging
of these "micro payments". The centrally executed (in app purchases) is
doable and widely used. This is easily enabled through a membership.

-Jukka

ti 30. maalisk. 2021 klo 7.11 EVDL Administrator via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> On 30 Mar 2021 at 0:56, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
> >  The transaction and authorization volume is not there.
>
> I think that it needs to be as easy to charge an EV as it is to fuel an
> ICEV.
>
> I can't imagine that any ICEV driver would want a wallet with a credit
> card
> for Shell, another for BP, another for Marathon, another for Speedway,
> another for Sheetz ... but isn't that what we're asking them to do with
> all
> these different charging networks?
>
> I thnk that an EV driver should be able to charge his EV at ANY paid
> charging point, just a an ICEV driver can fill his ICEV at any filling
> station.
>
> If the problem is that too many people charge too little, with very small
> monetary sums, then the charging companies should structure the fees
> differently.  They should make it more economical to charge large amounts.
>
> I guess that would entail a fairly steep initial connection charge, and
> maybe a lower per-kWh or per-minute fee.
>
> Also, as EV batteries grow in capacity, and range grows to 500km, 600km,
> and
> more, the need for frequent small charges will diminish. So perhaps the
> problem will solve itself in a few years.
>
> Right now in Europe, with newer EVs, I think that a typical charge on long
> trips would be around 30 - 35 kWh.  I looked at a few charging points on
> Chargemap and calculated that a 32kWh charge might cost between 4 and 6
> euros.
>
> Is that too small for a credit card transaction?
>
> If it is too small, what do you think is a good minimum amount?
>
> Thanks again!
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world
>  with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands.
>
> -- H L Mencken
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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The Blade Battery is a really neat approach to add structural support to
the pack and it is a few steps away from what I am doing.  :)

The new Blade cell dimensions do really help on the mechanical support but
it also allows manufacturing methods which are more relaxed. They still do
foil coating with it which is slow and hard compared to separator coating.
But all that allows faster production and less cost. Excellent development!

What is coming after the Blade and other structural packs? It's the
foil-less system. Film cells (not so thin) have been overlooked for
decades. Design ideas go way back to the Voltaic pile from the 18th century
and pick up all kinds of small innovations from the 1970's, 80's and all
the way up here to our Lithium era.

There is actually no need to have 2 separate current collectors as in the
Blade or Tesla pack (Al/Cu foils and the battery case). Only one current
collector is needed and it can be the case.

Only reason not to do fully open electrode designs have been volatile
compounds such as electrolytes. Issues have been also from the
electrode point of view the most aggressive element on Earth called H2O.

With 12 hour charge and discharge demand for energy storage applications
this has opened the path. Not sure yet if this is usable in EV due longer
charging time but we'll see. EV buses are very doable due
to overnight charging and the possibility to get closer to the raw material
cost of LFP cell ($8/kWh). This path also opens up the door to do fully
electric containerships. Electrify everything is the thing now. Really
looking forward to my first 20.000 TEU EV conversion project. Exciting
times! 8)

The "future" is here now guys. This is what we've been boasting about for
the past 30 years (some of you even longer than that). I'm having a blast.
I hope you do too.

-Jukka






ti 30. maalisk. 2021 klo 7.16 EVDL Administrator via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> On 28 Mar 2021 at 21:03, dave delman via EV wrote:
>
> > Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery?
>
> This thread seems to have diverged from the original question.
>
> Here's some recent information about BYD's battery.
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/495023/byd-blade-battery-entering-european-
> market/
> 
>
> https://v.gd/Es1G3i
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  How is the world ruled, and how do wars start?  Diplomats
>  tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read.
>
> -- Karl Kraus
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>
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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Small payments is an issue we struggle with Parking Energy so I can tell
what my charging infrastructure company planned to do with it.

” Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?”

As at least in Europe all credit and debit card payments include commission
and handling fees and as these charging stations have no other sale it has
forced everyone to RFIDs and clubs. The transaction and authorization
volume is not there.

This allow payments through a credit line (~$20 with Parking Energy). So
your card will be charged only after that amount of charging events is
full. We charge around 20c/kWh. So ~100kWh chunks.

QR code activation with mobile payments would be really nice. But there are
several systems already and handling everything from Diners Club to Elons
Space Coins is tricky.

A coin slot then? 🤪😅 No. No thanks.

If it would be feasible I would order all our statios free of charge first
thing in the morning. But that would not be called business anymore.
Expensive hobby would be more better description.

BUT! We might get to exactly that. There’s going to be horde of battery
containers with DC quick charging (in China). I already sparked this idea
16 years ago when I paralleled LFP strings with 350Ah cells and used
isolated charger to fill the string 1 while chopping the current down to
lower voltage string 2. Charging station battery can be galvanically
connected to the vehicle battery as long as the system is isolated from the
grid (in Europe). I bet ERCOT would love to have 20.000 1MWh charging
stations with a PPA. That would allow all free charging. 😎

-Jukka


ma 29.3.2021 klo 23.37 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:46, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
> > I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I'm not sure
> if
> > it already has happened.
>
> Jukka , thanks for the post.  I hope it has happened, or will soon.
>
> It would make a lot of sense.   EU seems to have somewhat less regulatory
> capture than we have in the US, and it's significantly more pro-consumer.
> Remember that it was EU that pushed for mobile phone interoperability (GMS
> system).
>
> I am not an expert on this but it appears to me that major western
> European
> nations (perhaps bar Italy) are promoting EVs to some extent or another
> and
> have plans to (almost?) phase out ICEVs some time between 2030 and 2040.
>
> They've been building charging points rapidly, but requiring Tesla to fall
> into line for universal CCS interoperability would clarify the EU's
> commitment, and help expand the charging network.
>
> Now can we get them to support the use of a simple credit card to pay for
> charging, without this RFID and charging-club nonsense?  I've bought
> gasoline with a credit card at fully unattended / automated filling
> stations
> in Europe so I don't see what the problem is for charging points.  Maybe
> someone can illuminate this.
>
> With simple credit payment, no apps, no RFID, EV driving across the EU
> will
> become a lot easier.  That and maintaining the charging points so that
> they
> actually work when you get there!
>
> And while we're dreaming, more >100kW points, and more renewable energy
> powering them ...
>
> The wild card is recent political gains made by nationalist political
> parties across the EU.  It could change but now I think there's at least
> 50%
> chance that French presidency will fall next year.  I worry that that
> could
> lead to weakening or even backtracking on EV adoption.  But it looks as if
> despite bojo and company the UK is holding firm thus far, so perhaps that
> won't be a major issue after all.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
>  It would scare the world.
>
>   -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation
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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I heard Tesla SC is going to be open in Europe to all cars. I’m not sure if
it already has happened.

So this might not be true anymore:

”All that being said, Tesla still only lets Teslas charge at Superchargers
in Europe even though they use the same plugs as everyone else; other EVs
are blocked from using their chargers at the software level. ”

The CCS and its protocols were designed to provide basic level to any user
but for license payers the full power. Even vendor specific EVSE was in the
plans. Naturally as the lead designers came from Volkswagen et al.
(Surprise?)

But Euroepan Commission said hard NO. Manufacturers cannot limit with SW
the charging experience if there is not technical reason. I’ve met the
people in Brussels who were in lead of the process and they did listen all
reasonable arguments.

I remember this bs like yesterday while it is almost 17 years ago when this
hot charging mess started. And it is still ”on the way”. Frankly I cannot
undertand why we just do not have simple DC-connect and PWM for control and
adapter cables for each vehicle (if needed).

-Jukka






ma 29.3.2021 klo 20.41 Glenn Brooks via EV  kirjoitti:

> Interesting article on charger incompatibility impacts.
>
>  Looks like yet another  case of industrial arrogance and knuckleheadery?
>
> https://apple.news/Abhhjtko0RUeWT_t83XMK1A
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Mar 28, 2021, at 6:03 PM, dave delman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anything new/significant happening with BYD Blade battery? I tried
> searching the archives and couldn't seem to find anything.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > David Delman
> > eLectricDeLorean.com
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Re: [EVDL] List down?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Looks like the discussion is going vivid on other mainstream mediums such
as FB. A lot of EV pioneers are spreading the gospel there as common people
are asking questions and support. More and more people are getting their
first EV experience and there are a lot of questions to answer. Which is
super good thing! :)

This is how EVolution goes. (I guess)

-Jukka


ke 13.1.2021 klo 12.33 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> Nope, the list is fine.  I guess that nobody has anything to say about EVs
> right now.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Consultant: someone who borrows your watch, tells you what
>  time it is, pockets the watch, and sends you a bill for it.
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] Zilla 1141 error - 15mV drop across contactor at 100A

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

High power demand under acceleration could indicate current leaking to the
motor hull and messing up the car chassis ground (?)  Brush dust issues
have kept me troubled too many times with weird problems.
-Jukka

to 3. syysk. 2020 klo 13.01 Matt via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org) kirjoitti:

> Hi Brains Trust,
>
> I have a Z1k LV.
> My hairball gives me errors 1141 and 1124 when I try to accelerate in any
> gear (worst in 5th, and least bad in 1st)
>
> The manual tells me 1141 is contactor high resistance. my DMM measuring
> the voltage across the battery and controller inputs to the hairball puts
> the voltage drop at 15mV for 100A (battery amps that is). Which looks about
> right for a  good contactor
>
> The contactor always drops out when I turn the ignition off, and my DMM
> measures 92v across the contactor (measured at the hairball terminals). My
> conversion is 96v nominal (actual battery voltage is 102v, though the
> little white light on the hairball must act as a voltage divider, dropping
> 10v)
>
> I opened the hairball, and it looks clean inside - nothing looks damaged
> visually.
>
> Any ideas on what to check next?
> Is it possible to see what the hairball is measuring as the voltage drop
> across the contactor?
>
> thanks in advance,
> Matt
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: paul dove via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2020 3:29 PM
> To: Mark Abramowitz via EV
> Cc: paul dove
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chinese electric/plasma jet engine.
>
>  Isn't that how a plasma cutter works?
>
> On Tuesday, September 1, 2020, 3:36:03 AM CDT, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  This is highly simplistic, and really not  very accurate . The formation
> of ozone in the atmosphere is much more complex than that, and results not
> from “other pollutants” but hydrocarbons or volatile organic gases. The
> amount produced, if any is highly dependent on many factors.
>
> And ozone itself is not particularly stable.
>
> There may be a lot of NOx produced, and NOx is a pollutant itself. But it
> is possible that any emissions can be controlled.
>
> If you are talking about plasma (which we are), ozone can be directly
> produced from that, though I am not familiar with the chemistry.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 31, 2020, at 7:51 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> >
> > The NOx pollution would be horrendous.
> >
> > Oxides of nitrogen (NO, NO2, etc.) form when air is heated, like in an
> engine (or in lightning, for example.) NOx is not particularly stable, so
> it later breaks down in sunlight in the presence of other pollutants to
> create ozone (O3). More NOX = more O3. The hotter the air gets, the more
> NOx is produced. A plasma is _way_ hotter than any existing engine. Thus,
> this plasma propulsion system would produce _way_ more NOx than any
> existing engine technology. I'm certain it would also produce a lot of O3
> as well, since the a plasma is so hot.
> >
> > Not a good idea at all. Extremely bad news from an air pollution
> perspective.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> >> On 9/1/2020 2:28 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> >> Claims no fossil fuel is needed. Just air and electricity to burn the
> plasma.
> https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/chinese-researchers-create-prototype-plasma-jet-engine/
> Lawrence Rhodes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- next part --
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> An HTML 

Re: [EVDL] Orion BMS site

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

DNS resolves now from here too. :)

Darn those GRU cyberwarriors! Tampering my browsing experience...

-Jukka

ti 18.6.2019 klo 19.11 Gary Krysztopik via EV  kirjoitti:

> Works for me and they have been very responsive.
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 2:42 AM Jukka Järvinen via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all.
> >
> > What's going on with the orionbms.com site? I could not access it. Says
> > it's unreachable.
> >
> > Is this company alive still? I know it's not easy :)
> >
> > -Jukka
> > -- next part --
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> >
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> > >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
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[EVDL] Orion BMS site

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Hi all.

What's going on with the orionbms.com site? I could not access it. Says
it's unreachable.

Is this company alive still? I know it's not easy :)

-Jukka
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Yes. Still few people understand about li-ion. The main thing to understand
is there is so many different ways to make them it is quite impossible to
know enough to make any general assumptions. There’s maybe less than dozen
people in the world who can say anything in general. I can only say I know
those cells I am making and which I have been litterallyt living with
almost two decades. It is not about knowing all but to know what one
specific cell type can do. And when certain treshold of knowledge is met
most things around it can be optimized to get the job done (what ever it
is). -Jukka


to 13.9.2018 klo 10.24 Michael Ross via EV  kirjoitti:

> Hi Lee,
>
> You were kind enough to talk with me bit a while back, and you were right
> on. We wanted to build a testing lab using the Novonix equipment, but it
> was clear the general population of Li ion users who might benefit from
> actually knowing: neighborhood vehicles, scooters, eBikes and so on,
> prefered to be ignorant of the actual quality and durability of the cells
> they were buying. Likewise they had little understandind how their
> controllers and charging systems worked, and how to do some QC on that
> incoming material.
>
> If you are a Medtronix, or a Tesla, where you have a big money need to get
> it right then this testing looks like how you stay ahead of competition.
> They can afford the $1M ticket to have inhouse testing, or make deals just
> as those two mentioned did with Dalhousie.
>
> And so 4 years down the line, still, few people understand how the cells
> work, how they are manufactured well, what real quality looks like, what
> the real life in an application might be.
>
> Anyway, funding a lab and having it actually pay salaries looked near
> impossible.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:41 AM Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > > Yeah, I wouldn't say prove either. But testing can be far better than
> the
> > > old tried, and not very good cycling tests.
> >
> > It all depends on who is doing the testing, and why.
> >
> > If it's being done by marketing to promote sales, they're likely to pick
> > a test procedure that gives the best results possible. Often, they won't
> > specify the test procedure used, or leave out crucial information.
> >
> > If it's done by a customer, to evaluate how long it's likely to last in
> > their product, they are more likely to strive for meaningful test
> results.
> >
> > If it's done by an independent researcher, look at who's paying for the
> > testing.
> > --
> > Imagination is your preview of life's coming attractions.
> > (Albert Einstein)
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Unknown future problems? What are you referring to? This is well documented
failure mode. That is the very reason of having the fuse there. :) It is
not due manufacturing defect.

Empirical evidence is empirical. One has to see it with own eyes. It does
not mean it is in public domain. Most important to make it scientific and
useful is to have all well documented and verified with proven evidence.
This is what Tesla is doing by not telling openly what is their empirical
evidence on the drive battery failure modes. It's their way to keep ahead
of the competition. Just like what I have been doing for the past ~20 years
in this field of business. I use the knowledge to improve my products and
innovations to create more innovations and make sure we survive the climate
change (while it all started with deep love to EV and technology 25 years
ago).

15 years of operational lifetime has been now proven with LiFePO4-Graphite.
Adding the new innovations on that base track record is basis on my claim
we are going to witness even better results. This is why I *see* this as a
*possible* outcome. 500Wh/kg can be achieved in printed thin film cells
which have been plagued with certain issues regarding certain things. Vague
enough? :D

-Jukka


su 9. syysk. 2018 klo 21.19 Jan Steinman via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> > From: Jukka J?rvinen 
> >
> > The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> > 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> > mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene production. I
> > see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime
>
> I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.
>
> How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who
> uses known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long lifetime
> that none of it has even passed through?
>
> We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour
> is well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for
> "15 year lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene"
> cells.
>
> Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)
>
> Jan
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

You're absolutely right. Tesla has hired plenty of talent and they are
driving the cost down with vehicle designs. That said they cannot compete
in ESS with their existing design. They have now a chance as the grid side
compensations are pretty high and investments are paid back in about one
year. This is changing and the competition will be hard. The ESS business
is 100-fold compared to vehicles in next 20 years. The deployment rates are
very different as people have used to buy energy as a service but not yet
vehicle as a service. We do have the same issues with Utilities which are
comparable to OEM ICE. So this actually boils down to business models. Not
only superior technology. -Jukka



ma 10. syysk. 2018 klo 11.24 Michael Ross via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> I believe Tesla has the best resources for developing batteries and
> manufacturing them.  They hired all the pertinent electrochemists at least.
> They have made themselves the subject matter experts, bar none.
>
> Also it is probable that for a while, new batteries designs will be
> manufactured in a similar manner, and Tesla will incur less capital outlay
> to retool than any new entries.
>
> Anyone with a better design would be smart to prove it to Tesla and get on
> board with them.  So far as we know, no one has demonstrated the efficacy
> of an any substantially new designs to them.
>
> An interesting point is that Tesla is not a typical for profit company.
> Musk at least will be happy to simply create a demand, and even
> competition.  The more successful the better. I have always kept this in
> mind when investing with them.  I actually think the battery business is
> more valuable than the car business.
>
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 10:14 PM robert winfield via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >  in 2018, so far Tesla has used 7,103,326 Kilowatt hours of batteries,
> 77%
> > of all the batteries used in EV's (less China) of the 9,279,755 total
> > It doesn't matter whether you argue prismatic or pouch or 18650 or
> > 2170. Tesla is outselling everyone else
> >
> > On Sunday, September 9, 2018, 8:45:20 PM EDT, ROBERT via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> >  The problem with Tesla's batteries is not small vs large but Tesla has
> > put all their eggs into one type of battery.  The other automotive
> > companies are staying out of the battery business so that they can buy
> the
> > best batteries available and not spend money on development.  Vertical
> > business development is not always the best model.  At present, do what
> you
> > do best and assemble a final product and buy from numerous suppliers is
> the
> > current business model for the big automotive companies.
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: EV  on behalf of Jan Steinman via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 10:02 AM
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: Jan Steinman
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs
> >
> > > From: Jukka J?rvinen 
> > >
> > > The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> > > 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> > > mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene
> production. I
> > > see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime
> >
> > I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.
> >
> > How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who
> > uses known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long
> lifetime
> > that none of it has even passed through?
> >
> > We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour
> > is well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for
> > "15 year lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene"
> > cells.
> >
> > Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)
> >
> > Jan
> >
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Hi guys.

Since tZero the small-cell-paralleling has been driven by costs and the
search for benefit of scale. During those days there were not so many
”large” cell format producers and the cost efficiency was not even close to
laptop cells. We were even looking in all kind of folding methods and
stacking techiques back then. A lot of trial and error was still ahead.

Why small cell paralleling has an issue which will eventually render to
problems?

Because cells age differently due plenty of different factors. If they have
fuses for their max C rate and one parallels them the current is wobbling
around between each cell unevenly. More they age more they wobble. Current
goes through where is the most lowest resistance. The fuse blows when in
high current situation the best cell tries to compensate the weak ones.
Once fuse is blown all work is done by the rest of the cells (which were
the bad ones already). This repeats until there is only few fuses left and
you’re on turtle mode.

”Large” format cells have less fuses as they have the same chemical mass as
maybe 10 or 15 small cells. Paralleling two or three cells one can fuse
with more relaxed sizing. Using actual large cells (>300Ah) one fuse (if
any) is enough.

The trend is more stable chemistry cells can grow even bigger. 10.000Ah
cells have been demostrated with LiFePO4. And no fuses.

Tesla and many other small cells users put a lot of effort to distribute
the heat as evenly as possible. This gives a lot of more time to avoid
cascade effect with blowing fuses. But this is the Modus Operandi for EOL.
It will happen. Not if.

Now. The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
500.000 miles? Maybe one million miles? We are already at the point where
this does not matter. So Tesla design is very good as it is ”good enough”
and provides what it needs to. It all boils down to their cell production
and sorting methods. Or if they design an adaptive fusing setup.

The major change is still coming to the industry as we have just now
mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene production. I
see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime and <$50/kWh in my horizon. We are now
already living an industrial disruption. Ejoy the (electrical) ride!

-Jukka


su 9.9.2018 klo 12.54 mark hanson via EV  kirjoitti:

> Hi Bob etc,
>
>
>
> Consumer Reports said while they loved driving a Tesla model S, they gave
> it
> a poor rating on reliability and preferred the Leaf and now the Bolt,
> saying
> "you'd be nuts not to consider a Bolt".  Elon Musk/Tesla is the *only*
> company that's putting 6800+ 21mm X 70mm itty bitty cells together in a
> large EV.  When they came out with the Roadster in California, I asked a
> Tesla salesman about the long term reliability of 6800 points of failure
> and
> he said "don't think of it as 6800 points of failure, think of it as 6800
> points of redundancy".  Good spin.  Either they know something that *no*
> other large scale vehicle manufacturer/engineering teams doesn't, or their
> long term reliability/profitability will continue to be poor.  Knowing what
> I know about electronic componentry, I'll put my money on large format
> cells
> for large on road EV's, Bolt, Leaf, Smart, BMW etc.
>
>
>
> Note for further info, see: www.Batteryuniversity.com EV battery
> comparisons/lithium chemistries LMC Cathode, vs LiFePO4 & aluminized
> cathode
> (tesla type) cells.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 18:00:28 -0400
>
> From: Robert Bruninga 
>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of ... now
>
>   Redundancy!
>
> Message-ID: 
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>
>
> > I've always had it beat into my pointy engineering head  to minimize
>
> > component count. Which is also why  id never own a Tesla with 6800 or
>
> > so cells in their battery.
>
>
>
> That philosophy fails to recognize the value gained in multiple redundancy.
>
> The Tesla battery of 6800 cells is far more reliable since it has 74 cells
> in PARALLEL for each 3.6volt lithium unit.  Compared to a Leaf with only 2
> cells in parallel at each stage in the stack.
>
>
>
> IN the Tesla the impact on any single battery failure is then only 3% of
> the
> impact of a cell problem on a car with larger format cells.
>
>
>
> I'd take the multiple redundancy of the Tesla any day.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Shorai LiFePO4 LFX36L3-BS12 Longevity Reviews

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

There's so many different ways one can make LiFePO4 cells so it is hard to
say what goes with each cell we get.

In general and from experiences accumulated so far it is very rarely the
case where LFP would die on your hands suddenly. Anything might seem sudden
if you're not monitoring the behavior of the cells. All the signs are there
even months before failure.

For starting application keep it out of high SOC and keep cycles shallow.
You should probably even disconnect it after minute or two of charging when
you've put in what you got out. Oversize the pack for power and keep it out
of too cool or hot temperatures.

If you're taking 10C out of any cell you're creating heat on the current
collectors and tabs. Mechanics have also quite important role there. But I
dare to doubt you're taking 550A to start. More likely it's 1ms of that and
then 150-250A for few seconds. If you can charge the battery just before
cranking it up you can use the supercap effect of li-ion cells to cut that
550A.

If done right you can expect 15-20 year usable life from LFP.

All LFP cells I have murdered without clear and planned mayhem (crush,
burn, pierce, etc.), have died gradually.

-Jukka



ti 14. elok. 2018 klo 7.19 Mark Hanson via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org) kirjoitti:

> Sounds lik
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 12, 2018, at 7:31 PM, Bobby Keeland  wrote:
> >
> > Mark Hanson asked "curious if LiFePO4 dies suddenly or gradually like
> lead."
> >
> > My experience with lead acid batteries in both a Dodge RAM pickup and in
> a Subaru SUV is that they were working great when I stopped at the
> dealership (Dodge) and pharmacy (Subaru), but when I got back in the
> vehicles the battery was dead. No obvious gradual decline.
> >
> >> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 10:04 AM mark hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> >> Thanks Cor,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, it has a standard 14V alternator regulated.  I start and stop
> frequently as skiers are getting in/out of the boat, so curious if LiFePO4
> dies suddenly or gradually like lead.  I assume a small battery like this
> would start fine one second and then not, so I keep a spare battery in the
> boat (unless someone has any real data on this battery, couldn’t find on
> the great god google) .  What is the projective life, 1,5,10 years?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I had an electric boat www.evalbnum.com/2749
> >>
> >> but couldn’t H20 ski behind it so bought a lean burn Honda BFP60, same
> engine that was in my 2000 (real) Insight 65mpg.  In the alum 1200lb 6x16
> boat, gets 6.5MPG which is considered “good” most fiberglass 3400lbs are
> 2.3MPG.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Have a renewable energy day,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark E. Hanson
> >>
> >> 184 Vista Lane
> >>
> >> Fincastle, VA 24090
> >>
> >> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >>
> >> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >>
> >> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >>
> >> UL Certified PV Installer
> >>
> >> My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >>
> >> FREE Solar EV Charging! ;
> http://www.WeatherLink.com/user/MarkHansonREEVA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Cor van de Water [mailto:cor.vandewa...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 12:19 AM
> >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> Cc: mark hanson
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Shorai LiFePO4 LFX36L3-BS12 Longevity Reviews
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark,
> >>
> >> I presume that your boat engine has an alternator and is generating 14v
> as long as it keeps running, so not too likely that your boat suddenly dies
> in the middle of the lake, but good to have backup.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That said, your 4lbs battery probably has between 200 to 300 Wh of
> capacity at best, using normal density numbers.
> >>
> >> At 12.8v this means probably 15 to 20 Ah so the usual Chinese twice (or
> more) overspec.
> >>
> >> Cor.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 8:29 PM mark hanson via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I was curious if anyone has used/evaluated the Shorai LiFePO4, Lithium
> Iron
> >> Phosphate LXF35L3-BS12 I bought from Amazon $250 with charger/balancer
> $67
> >> for my HondaBFP60 boat (1000cc similar to large motorcycle) claims 550
> >> cranking amps, 36ah but only weighs 4 lbs so probably Chinese inflated
> >> specs.   Looks more like 7-14ah MC battery.  It does start the engine
> with
> >> little voltage sag, 11V whereas the lead battery sags to 8V when
> starting.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm concerned that it may suddenly die out in the middle of the 80 mile
> lake
> >> here Smith Mountain Lake near Roanoke, VA so keep a spare tractor
> battery on
> >> the boat just incase.   I replaced a 40lb lead marine battery to save
> some
> >> weight but curious about the longevity and how LiFePO4 dies, if it's
> sudden
> >> or gives some warning like lead (that gets gradually saggy when
> starting).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Have a renewable energy day,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mark E. H

Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery fire?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Nice! I saw only the videos from the start until the fire persons came to
scene.

Someone commented the car was completely destroyed. But very good if the
design worked as planned. Is there some kind of flame thrower nozzle at the
size of the car? (If yes Mad Max points +1)

I would still prefer easy cooling or even ejectable battery pack when using
plenty of small and high power cells in parallel. :)

-Jukka

ma 18.6.2018 klo 15.26 Barry Oppenheim via EV  kirjoitti:

> "Why burn down the whole car when it can be super easily prevented?"
>
> Actually they did manage to prevent this.  Note how the battery design kept
> the fire from spreading and contained it within the forward modules of the
> battery, allowing it to self extinguish.  It also vented the fire away from
> the passenger compartment (flames were directed sideways).
>
> Barry
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery fire?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Most likely an assembly error which slipped through inspections. Loose
connections or broken bolts. Anything can and does happen.

One can expect Tesla to identify and fix the problem. They've done so every
time as far I know.

Tesla could put a gap between the car and the battery so one can cool the
pack with water. Could be accessed from the frunk easily. Why burn down the
whole car when it can be super easily prevented?

Far better than the exhaust valve of Dreamliner battery and no fix to the
actual cause of failure.

-Jukka






ma 18. kesäk. 2018 klo 10.03 Mark Abramowitz via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> I think that it’s only a growing and serious threat if they don’t
> identify (and fix) the root cause(s) of the problem.
>
> Many parts of this story are bleeding edge - some problems are to be
> expected, as with anything else.
>
> And...they better not name the next iteration “Pinto”!
>
> ---
> - Mark
>
> On 2018-06-17 18:19, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > No collision, no apparent cause; Tesla is reportedly investigating.
> >
> > Negative Tesla incidents are reported widely, much more so than fires
> > and
> > collisionis in ICEVs, probably because the Tesla is novel and
> > distinctive.
> > Whether their numbers represent a greater or lesser percentage of cars
> > on
> > the road and/or miles driven, I can't say.  Either way, I do think they
> > represent a serious and growing PR problem for Tesla.
> >
> > =
> >
> > Tesla goes up in flames in video captured by actor Mary McCormack
> > Sun 17 Jun 2018 01.21 BST - Last modified on Sun 17 Jun 2018 10.00 BST
> >
> > Actor Mary McCormack has shared video of her husband´s Tesla car
> > catching
> > fire while in traffic in California. Flames can be seen shooting out
> > from
> > underneath the vehicle as it sits on the side of the road.
> >
> > McCormack said in an accompanying tweet it was not the result of an
> > accident
> > and that the incident came "out of the blue".
> >
> > More:
> >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/17/tesla-fire-video-mary-
> > mccormack-california
> >
> > or https://v.gd/HRInyw
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ultra-capacitor_li-ion hybrid> crazy-fast 20s charging

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The surface area of li-ion electrodes are already on the next level. Only
the mechanical design of cells and specifically the current collectors are
slowing us down in the development. That'll pass soon. We rather avoid
foils as current collectors. So 1990's.

We did not understand even 5 years ago how cheaply we can create new Carbon
structures such as Graphene. Also solid electrolytes are giving us a
completely new way to build cells (PLD for example) and I dare to
expect +100C li-ion cells in various applications at that $100/kWh level
which Elon mentioned. Eventually we'll be at +50 years usable lifetime,
<$50/kWh and probably 50TWh annual production capacity. That'll take long
time for sure. Definitely we'll be there not earlier than maybe 2025.

So we'll have very cheap, powerful and durable li-ion cells in not so
distant future. Those same cells will be used in the grid side to buffer
any power requirement and provide digital inertia for maybe week or two. So
no worries about the grid issues.

Even today we can build 350kW fast charger power electronics with about
$10/kW from battery to battery. So there is no huge cost to even enable
these kind of super fast chargers but I think the main question is do we
really need them?

-Jukka


ke 13. kesäk. 2018 klo 13.56 EVDL Administrator via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> On 12 Jun 2018 at 22:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > A hybrid lithium/carbon battery system could offer the best of both
> worlds "
> > long-range continuous driving and long-term power storage thanks to the
> > lithium unit, plus ultra-fast partial charging and extreme power output
> thanks
> > to the ultra-capacitor.
>
> Back in 2001 Solectria (RIP) built an experimental EV using a Maxwell
> supercapacitor bank to manage peak driving current and regen.  They ran it
> through a customized DC:DC talking to the controller over the Canbus, and
> claimed a 32% increase in range.
>
> It was just an experiment, though.  Production EVs are expensive already,
> and something like that would be tough to do in an affordable vehicle.
>
> > "Most of the energy in regenerative braking is lost as heat, maybe 80
> > percent," says Grape. "Perhaps 20 percent is recouped ... "
>
> Yeah, right.  That must be why Axel Krause's trip over the Alps over 20
> years ago resulted in almost the same energy consumption he would have had
> if he'd driven the same distance in flat terrain.
>
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
>
> > The electric motors are very efficient at generating that power, but
> > the battery just can't accept the charge rate.
>
> Good grief, how hard is he braking?
>
> Every battery I know of can accept regen or charging current at about the
> same rate it can deliver driving current, as long as the battery isn't
> over
> 80% SOC.
>
> > Imagine simply driving your car over a surface at a charge station,
> > paying for a top-up and driving away 10-20 seconds later.
>
> Now imagine how much power that would require from the mains.
>
> Who, me?  Skeptical?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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[EVDL] Scalable cabling and charging system from Finland

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Hi all dear EVDL friends.

Thought you’d all appreciate to know how we solved the home and office
charging issues here (Finland). This is probably something quite different
what you’ve seen so far. Aim is to have electricity on all parking places
with excellent cost efficiency. Actually I think I’ve posted earlier about
this years back but here’s an update to you all.

Naturally I still have my hands deeply in the li-ion jar and building
battery systems and battery cells (LiFePO4) here. Containerized solutions
etc. while this update is not about this. It’s another startup of mine. :)

I know many of you on the EVDL are in US but also plenty from other regions
which are a bit more closer by. We pulled this compeny on crowd fuding
platform as we’re coming to other regions now.

So please check the details here: https://www.invesdor.com/en/pitches/906

On many locations EV drivers have no specific parking spots and arranging
the charging opportunity to all equally is tricky. We had here the oddity
of having those close to 2 million sockets already by the parking spots
(for ICE block heating) for about 50 years. So there’s a track record of
about billion plug-in events and we’re learned from them.  And so this came
out.

If any of you are intersted to cooperate at any level please let me know.

-Jukka
EVDLer since 199x (who could remember anything two decades back?  :P   )

P.S.- I hope you don’t feel this is spam or such. In case you do please
send me privately as angry message as you can. ;)
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Re: [EVDL] Self discharge never sleeps (was: Curtis 1238-6501...)

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Each cell is operated in specific SOC window (say 70%DOD between 20 and 90
%SOC) which is matched to other aging mechanisms. So each cell has its own
operational SOC region. Another cell might be used between 25 and 95 %SOC
and another between 15 and 85 %SOC.

Effectively reducing certain amount of capacity from the pack but cells are
'driven' to more balance. So balancing does not mean one has absolutely
same SOC on each cell. Voltages might be all over the place as the
balancing criteria is matched lifetime and service predictability.

-Jukka


ke 9. elokuuta 2017 klo 23.29 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 9 Aug 2017 at 20:18, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:
>
> > This is why SOC windowing was developed.
>
> Could someone please explain what SOC windowing is and how it works?
> Thanks.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Self discharge never sleeps (was: Curtis 1238-6501...)

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

This is why SOC windowing was developed. To compensate the 'death rate'
among the cells in the pack. Works with high voltage chemistries but with
LFP and LTO one must do 'other stuff'.

-Jukka

ke 9. elokuuta 2017 klo 22.01 Bill Dube via EV 
kirjoitti:

> Self discharge has an _extremely_ strong function of temperature.
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge
>
> It is also a function of cell health, age, past abuse, etc. The list of
> factors that alter the rate of self-discharge is seeming endless.
>
> Because it is such a strong function of temperature, small variations in
> the temperature of each the many cells in a high voltage pack can cause
> large imbalance because "self-discharge never sleeps".  It chews away on
> the cells 24-7, regardless of whether they charging or discharging or
> simply open circuit. This is a problem because the end cells (that have
> a thick conductor to the outside world,) and cells on the outside edge
> of the pack, have a different thermal environment than do the inner-most
> cells. The temperature of the outside cells (and the end cells) is often
> starkly different than the inner cells. The self discharge is thus
> greatly different, and is typically dependent on the placement of the
> cell within the pack, and the difference between the outside temperature
> and the average pack temperature.
>
> If your BMS happens to have some sort of cell voltage monitor or some
> sort of LED indicators on the cells themselves, this spacial imbalance
> becomes readily apparent. You can literally see the temperature
> variation that manifests itself as a SOC imbalance across the pack. You
> can watch the LEDs on perimeter of the pack light up before the LEDs on
> the inside of the pack when the outside temperature is cooler than the
> pack temperature. When the outside is warmer than the pack, the opposite
> is observed. It is like a topographic map of the cell temperature since
> the last charge. Even if the cell temperature is uniform at the time you
> actually charge and observe, the BMS LEDs will tell the tale of the cell
> temperature history since the previous full charge.
>
> What is particularly insidious, is that contact resistance of the
> terminals, and internal resistance, also greatly effect the temperature
> of individual cells and thus elevate the self-discharge of those
> specific cells. This is why bad connections cause chronic cell imbalance
> and "weak" cells get out of balance. These cells run hotter than the
> rest, and the self-discharge skyrockets.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 8/8/2017 6:23 PM, Hoegberg via EV wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > LFP:
> > You might with some(all?) LFP even find a slight hysteresis in pack
> voltage, at exactly the same SOC..
> >
> >   (most visible if you are in the 30-70% SOC-zone)
> > depending on ..if you have had a regen or a discharge pulse as your last
> event,
> > then the no load voltage seems not to be exactly the same, at the same
> SOC.
> > A higher rest voltage if you did a charge/regen pulse compared to if you
> just did a very short discharge.
> >
> > I agree with the others, count Ah is the way ot go to know the SOC % in
> the flat part of the discharge curve,
> >
> > Also my experience was, that decent cells dont have any / a lot of self
> discharge to balance out when in normal use, only milliamps might be needed
> over time, so if they are well (top)balanced once they seems to stay well
> balanced. But if the cells are damaged / have mfg problems from the
> begining then it might be a different situation,
> >
> > Regarding balancers maximum current:
> >   we had a 5 Amp as the charger minimum current, so we did a pulse
> charge instead of use large balance currents,
> >
> > So if one cell reach the "balancing" voltage then we can just stop the
> charger, and wait for that cell to reach its lower voltage, with only 100mA
> or so as balancer discharge current, then we re-enable the charger(5Amp)
> until any cell(s) again reach the balance-start voltage.
> >
> > If you dont have any cell voltage monitoring , or any kind of signal /
> feedback from the balancers, then it might be tricky to do this, I dont
> have any good solution to shut of the charger in time if we dont know when
> we have a problem. (other than to use a lower charge current than your
> balancers can handle, but if one balancer do fail, then you will probably
> overcharge that cell later)
> >
> >   I would prefer to use some kind of good cell voltage monitoring so you
> can get a warning in time if some cell go to low or to high, and also use
> it to shut of/cut down the charger, or cut back on the trottle if some of
> the cells get to low when driving.
> >
> > in my opinion that should be a minimum when charging a large expensive
> pack..of more than 4 cells in series. :-)
> >
> > If we only use the full pack voltage for the charger to decide whan to
> go in to constant voltage mode, then we can get in troubles, for example if
> one cell i

Re: [EVDL] Electric compressor for EV+Battery heating (heat pump)

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

What do you consider 'a very cold area in north europe"?

Easy advice for batteries:
Insulation, insulation, insulation.

:)

For cabin one can direct charger cooling fan to circulate air over night.
Most important is to keep moist out as people tend to cloth themselves
during beach weather (-10C) and when it's actually cold (-35C and below).
It is pretty unconfortable if cabin is too warm (>+18C).

-Jukka


to 6. huhtikuuta 2017 klo 22.42 Marco Gaxiola via EV 
kirjoitti:

> I'm helping a friend to design a conversion battery pack for a very
> cold area in north europe and was wondering if someone here has used an
> electric AC unit as a heat pump, either for heating up and comfort of the
> passengers on board, as well; and most important; to keep the battery pack
> warm enough on blow freezing temperatures.
>
> Marco Gaxiola
> energyev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I do not have the exact dimensions of the enclosure. Has someone made .dwg
out of it?

I would like to figure out if the old enclosure is usable for upgraded
pack. Most likely outcome is we will need to make the packs completely and
just make sure the connectors and joints fit.

The old BMS master unit has to be removed from the old pack and put on the
new pack to fool the Leaf. That BMS is not going to do anything with the
LiFePO4 pack. I'll make a miniature pack (360V nx100 mAh) which that BMS
will be measuring. DC/DC between the LiFePO4 and LMO packs will keep them
on identical SOC so the Leaf BMS is fooled to think all is as nothing has
happened.

This is my $50 hack to go around the BMS problem. :)

-Jukka


2017-01-20 2:46 GMT+02:00 Cor van de Water via EV :

> Hi Jukka,
>
> I will hang on to the shells, they have been in my yard a few months
> already, I can wait a few more weeks ;-)
>
> Do you have the outline of the box? With the half-pack (24 modules stacked
> sideways) across the back
>
> (under the rear seat) and the two quarter packs under the front seats/rear
> footwell with small stacks of
>
> 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 modules on each quarter pack? The height of the shell varies
> quite a bit from front to back!
>
> There is also a stiffening bar across between the 4+4 and the 2+2 stacks,
> but it can be left out if it is in the way.
>
> Let me know if I need to ship it with the shell.
>
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
> 
>
> From: jarv...@gmail.com [mailto:jarv...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jukka
> Järvinen
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 4:15 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
> interior/exterior/suspension parts?
>
>
>
> Thanks Cor!
>
>
>
> I will check what are the options to ship one set covers here. Last time I
> sent something from here to there about same size and weight was only about
> 300€.
>
>
>
> We can use the other set to upgrade one car in there if you're OK with
> that. Just hold on to them.
>
>
>
> I think I could have one set of covers even closer but I'd love to do 1st
> actual project with you. :)
>
>
>
> The cells I am going to do in lab as the manufacturing line is still under
> development.
>
>
>
> Very simplified description: Cellulose separator with anode (Graphene) and
> cathode (LiFePO4, large particle sizes only) printed directly on opposite
> sides of the separator and enclosed in graphene filled plastic cover with
> double layer gas barrier. No Al or Cu foils at all.
>
>
>
> The cells will be cut in shape so it covers the battery enclosure tightly.
> Cells are bipolar and ~1mm thick and just stacked on each other as the both
> sides of the cell is conductive.
>
>
>
> I will test few holes in the layers too so I can crimp the stack more
> evenly. I will not expect more than 300Wh/sqm at this point. Aim is at 500
> in next few years.
>
>
>
> Currently I am aiming almost solely in grid connected energy storage
> systems and only as service.
>
>
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
>
>
> 2017-01-19 10:44 GMT+02:00 Cor van de Water via EV :
>
> Jukka,
>
> I already have 2 complete (top and bottom shell) battery enclosures
> sitting in my yard that you can have for free.
>
> I might have the external connectors also (High voltage and the CAN bus /
> contactor control plug) for the enclosure.
>
> I don't have the control plug from the car, but I do have the high voltage
> wire from the car.
>
> There is a difference in the internals for the 2011/2012 Leaf battery
> versus the 2013+.
>
> These enclosures are for the 2013+ but the difference is mainly that they
> have only a few bolts to close them
>
> since they are supposed to be glued shut and the interior mounting
> positions of contactors, disconnect and
>
> stiffening bar are slightly different.
>
> I should have a disconnect somewhere, I can't recall for sure. I know that
> I have contactors if you are interested.
>
>
>
> What type of cells are you going to put in there to get that crazy
> capacity?
>
>
>
> BTW, shipment might be costly as the shell (especially the double-walled
> bottom) is heavy, it must be freighted
>
> as it is about 200 pounds per shell.
>
> Unless it can be picked up in person in Silicon Valley...
>
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 
>  Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 
>  private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Thanks Cor!

I will check what are the options to ship one set covers here. Last time I
sent something from here to there about same size and weight was only about
300€.

We can use the other set to upgrade one car in there if you're OK with
that. Just hold on to them.

I think I could have one set of covers even closer but I'd love to do 1st
actual project with you. :)

The cells I am going to do in lab as the manufacturing line is still under
development.

Very simplified description: Cellulose separator with anode (Graphene) and
cathode (LiFePO4, large particle sizes only) printed directly on opposite
sides of the separator and enclosed in graphene filled plastic cover with
double layer gas barrier. No Al or Cu foils at all.

The cells will be cut in shape so it covers the battery enclosure tightly.
Cells are bipolar and ~1mm thick and just stacked on each other as the both
sides of the cell is conductive.

I will test few holes in the layers too so I can crimp the stack more
evenly. I will not expect more than 300Wh/sqm at this point. Aim is at 500
in next few years.

Currently I am aiming almost solely in grid connected energy storage
systems and only as service.

-Jukka


2017-01-19 10:44 GMT+02:00 Cor van de Water via EV :

> Jukka,
>
> I already have 2 complete (top and bottom shell) battery enclosures
> sitting in my yard that you can have for free.
>
> I might have the external connectors also (High voltage and the CAN bus /
> contactor control plug) for the enclosure.
>
> I don't have the control plug from the car, but I do have the high voltage
> wire from the car.
>
> There is a difference in the internals for the 2011/2012 Leaf battery
> versus the 2013+.
>
> These enclosures are for the 2013+ but the difference is mainly that they
> have only a few bolts to close them
>
> since they are supposed to be glued shut and the interior mounting
> positions of contactors, disconnect and
>
> stiffening bar are slightly different.
>
> I should have a disconnect somewhere, I can't recall for sure. I know that
> I have contactors if you are interested.
>
>
>
> What type of cells are you going to put in there to get that crazy
> capacity?
>
>
>
> BTW, shipment might be costly as the shell (especially the double-walled
> bottom) is heavy, it must be freighted
>
> as it is about 200 pounds per shell.
>
> Unless it can be picked up in person in Silicon Valley...
>
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
> 
>
> From: Jukka Järvinen [mailto:akkuju...@akkujukka.fi]
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 12:32 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or
> interior/exterior/suspension parts?
>
>
>
> How much for the battery enclosure with external connectors? I'll build
> upgraded pack inside it (60-80kWh). -Jukka
>
>
>
> to 19. tammikuuta 2017 klo 7.56 Cor van de Water via EV 
> kirjoitti:
>
> I am involved in trouble-shooting a pickup truck that is converted
> with
>
> a (2013) Leaf drivetrain.
>
> However, over the course of the project some mistakes were made
> and in
>
> particular the BMS computer
>
> (LBC in Nissan language) was damaged and discarded before I got
>
> involved, but the LBC is coded
>
> to the other computers in the car (in particular to the instrument
>
> cluster, it seems) so the only way to
>
> get the project rolling again is to install a matched set of
> computers
>
> from another Leaf.
>
>
>
> For that purpose, I consider buying a black 2015 Leaf that was
>
> rear-ended but otherwise seems in good shape.
>
> Doors, the whole front end, seats, airbags and so on appear to be
> in
>
> great shape.
>
> I only need the battery and the computers plus the lower instrument
>
> cluster, everything else is available
>
> so the combination of inverter, charger, motor and transmission is
>
> available
>
> plus all suspension, halfshafts, rear axle, doors and everything
> on the
>
> front end: all lights, hood, bumper,
>
> bumper cover, radiator, A/C heatpump, intelligent brake system,
> pumps,
>
> harness and fuse boxes.
>
> Also all interior such as seats, carpeting, headliner and all
> airbags.
>
> BTW, I have an undamaged aluminum rear bumper sitting in my garage
> as
>
> well as some in

Re: [EVDL] Anyone interested in 2015 Leaf drivetrain or interior/exterior/suspension parts?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

How much for the battery enclosure with external connectors? I'll build
upgraded pack inside it (60-80kWh). -Jukka

to 19. tammikuuta 2017 klo 7.56 Cor van de Water via EV 
kirjoitti:

> I am involved in trouble-shooting a pickup truck that is converted with
>
> a (2013) Leaf drivetrain.
>
> However, over the course of the project some mistakes were made and in
>
> particular the BMS computer
>
> (LBC in Nissan language) was damaged and discarded before I got
>
> involved, but the LBC is coded
>
> to the other computers in the car (in particular to the instrument
>
> cluster, it seems) so the only way to
>
> get the project rolling again is to install a matched set of computers
>
> from another Leaf.
>
>
>
> For that purpose, I consider buying a black 2015 Leaf that was
>
> rear-ended but otherwise seems in good shape.
>
> Doors, the whole front end, seats, airbags and so on appear to be in
>
> great shape.
>
> I only need the battery and the computers plus the lower instrument
>
> cluster, everything else is available
>
> so the combination of inverter, charger, motor and transmission is
>
> available
>
> plus all suspension, halfshafts, rear axle, doors and everything on the
>
> front end: all lights, hood, bumper,
>
> bumper cover, radiator, A/C heatpump, intelligent brake system, pumps,
>
> harness and fuse boxes.
>
> Also all interior such as seats, carpeting, headliner and all airbags.
>
> BTW, I have an undamaged aluminum rear bumper sitting in my garage as
>
> well as some interior trim pieces
>
> and door speakers.
>
> Let me know your interest, so I can decide if it makes sense to buy the
>
> salvage Leaf and strip it.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Cor van de Water
>
> Chief Scientist
>
> Proxim Wireless
>
>
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
>
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
>
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- next part --
>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
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> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170118/d62fd009/attachment.htm
> >
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Yes. You're right about Edison cells. And the problem is the losses and
requirement to flush the cells every 1000 cycles. The losses and flushing
makes it 2x more expensive to own and operate compared to say Winston
cells. We've done the math extensively and used the real life numbers from
vast amount of installations.
-Jukka

tiistai 18. lokakuuta 2016 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 17 Oct 2016 at 16:47, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
> > Edison (nickle/iron) cells have pretty much infinite cycle life:
>
> So I've read from many sources.  There is lots of evidence to support this.
>
> As I understand it, the "metal" in nickel metal hydride cells is -- guess
> what -- iron.  So if NiFe can have such an extended cycle life, why can't
> NiMH?
>
> In fact, NiMH can have outstanding cycle life.  Consider those remarkable
> Toyota RAV4-EVs from 15+ years ago, with Panasonic NiMH batteries lasting
> well over 100,000 miles.
>
> Don't you wonder if maybe NiMH could have cycle life approaching that of
> NiFe, if they were designed for it?
>
> And haven't the patents encumbering the manufacture of large, BEV-sized
> NiMH
> modules expired now?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Battery manufacturers are vertically integrating their business from raw
material production to service (€/MW/MWh fee). We design cells for easy
recycling and optimize the cells to provide maximum MW/MWh in and out. This
is 10.000bn€ business opportunity as service. Today. Less if just selling
cells. It's not a tech business anymore. It's game for banksters. :D

So no one would mind having infinite battery. It's something we should
invent. :)

-Jukka

maanantai 17. lokakuuta 2016 Rick Beebe via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 10/17/2016 8:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> Maybe you've noticed that as LED retrofit light bulbs have fallen in
>> price,
>> their rated lifetimes have gotten shorter.  The early ones were rated for
>> 50,000 average hours; many now are rated for 10,000-20,000 hours.  The
>> same
>> thing happened with compact fluorescents, which quickly declined from
>> 10,000
>> hours to 6,000.
>>
>
> FWIW I haven't noticed that the LED bulbs I've purchased have lasted
> longer than the old incandescents so I pretty much don't believe anyone's
> rated lifetimes.
>
> --Rick
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Rarely what one can get for free is useless. People even sleep in cardboard
boxes.
So is the idea to push forward the responsibility to recycle? This is no
business per se. If something it's just smarter use of existing resources.

What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to
confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are
not the same at all to real life use. While I have to admit I was wholly
impressed by the Hydro Quebec battery research lab. Boy do they have toys
there! :D (droool) Advancements in R&D are available as we can now see more
deeper and more accurately with color-SEM and such.

Does it not go without saying that one should not use cell-murder (tm)? BMS
has to be done right.

-Jukka

P.S.- Dear Santa. I would like to have a $10bn to research more. Thank You!

2016-09-23 14:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
> For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big
> improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular
> investigations.
>
> Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary apps
> you can treat them well.
>
> EV battery packs may not be optimal compared to purpose built stationary
> packs but they are far from useless.
>
> Mike Ross
>
> On Sep 23, 2016 4:43 AM, "Jukka Järvinen"  wrote:
>
> > Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss of
> > capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application you will
> be
> > able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, LMO
> > and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have usage
> data
> > from those yet).
> >
> > Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature
> > during use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. LFP
> has
> > at least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above.
> Then
> > again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side reactions at
> > the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard time to compete
> > against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.
> >
> > Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to
> > buffer each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type
> cells.
> > Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around one
> > cent per kWh.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
> >
> >> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not
> degrade
> >> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that
> 'Lithium
> >> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any
> comment
> >> can be quibbled over.
> >>
> >> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by
> physical
> >> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss.
> But
> >> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
> >>
> >> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the
> exact
> >> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
> >> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so
> >> on.
> >>
> >> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body
> of
> >> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in
> significance.
> >>
> >> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would
> occur
> >> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to
> creating
> >> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
> >> stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
> >> automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
> >> car batteries will likely have a second life.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is
> >> no
> >> longer
> >> useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15%
> is
> >> too low for current technologies.
> >>
> >> For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
> >> useful power, how long would that take? Depends.
> >>
> >> It will continue to improve.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV  >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be
> replaced
> >> > when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which
> >> they
> >> > might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does
> anyone
> >> > know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
> >> > useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity
> >> shrink
> >> > down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that
> >> take?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thanks, Larry
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Larry Gales
> >> > -- 

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss of
capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application you will be
able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, LMO
and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have usage data
from those yet).

Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature during
use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. LFP has at
least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above. Then
again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side reactions at
the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard time to compete
against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.

Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to buffer
each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type cells.
Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around one
cent per kWh.

-Jukka




2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not degrade
> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that 'Lithium
> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any comment
> can be quibbled over.
>
> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by physical
> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss. But
> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
>
> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the exact
> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so on.
>
> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body of
> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in significance.
>
> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would occur
> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to creating
> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
> stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
> automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
> car batteries will likely have a second life.
>
> Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no
> longer
> useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15% is
> too low for current technologies.
>
> For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
> useful power, how long would that take? Depends.
>
> It will continue to improve.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be replaced
> > when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which they
> > might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does anyone
> > know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
> > useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity
> shrink
> > down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that take?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Larry
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -- next part --
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and
> Google Phone
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Pleas

Re: [EVDL] Which one china lifepo4 60 Ah?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Why NMC/LMO/LCO over LFP on OEM EVs? Due the cell cost. LFP base patents
are still valid for few years while others are free game. Sometimes I feel
they also wanted to make shitty solutions to prove EVs are no-go. You just
got to love how Tesla is wiping floor with those arrogant a*#%¥£es. :)

When comparing Chinese LFP providers it's good to remember the original
developer of this tech. Nearly all prismatic cell manufacturers are
originally TS license factories. TS provided tech to all of them. Then many
of the factories (couple dozen) have taken their own path. Many of them
have not continued to buy raw materials from TS and have started their own
development. Many buy LFP from other vendors who build very different LFP.
Cells may perform better and give more power but we are after calendar
life. We've proven 10 years on the road on customer cars (with super good
BMS made by yours truly and MetricMind Victor).

Also TS has mastered the water based slurrying over a decade and only now
others have started to adopt it. The GigaFactory solvent recuperation
process is another way to find cost efficiency but it takes space and
requires more investment. TS water slurry coaters fit 8x more production
capacity in the same space and no VOC! There is also now a major change
coming to the production process which may (if successful) 30-fold the
producion speed.

TS aims to have the best cost efficiency so there is no excuse for anyone
not to go for EVs. The inventor of TS is an EV geek just like us. Also very
nice and warm hearted person. He always tries to do the best to serve us
but due the good will too many exploit it and there is just so much one man
can do.

It's not his or his products fault if cells go smokey with no BMS. We have
been looking vast amount of solutions how to integrate BMS to the cell and
there are now few very good options we will test extensively out.

It would also be benefical to have formation data on the chip so it's
easier to see how the rest of the formation is completed after
installation. Yes. It takes several hundred cycles to 'build' so it matters
quite alot how you use cells when you pull them out from the box. Other
manufacturers cycle more and age the cell longer. TS let's you decide how
you do it. Your BMS will in most cases do it for you. Never go without BMS.
Also never use s€&@t for BMS either. Use good and well tested ones.

If you have still working TS cells in the pack replace the broken ones with
new similar cells and add good BMS. Then drive with smile :)

-Jukka



sunnuntai 14. elokuuta 2016 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 13 Aug 2016 at 17:35, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > I have seen very little evidence of such. Most people are still driving
> their
> > conversions BMS  or  not. My vehicle has over 20,000 miles on it with no
> sign
> > of capacity loss.
>
> That's good to know, but as I see it, what "most people" report isn't all
> that helpful in evaluating the true practical cycle life of LiFePO4.  As
> any
> statistical researcher will tell you, the plural of anecdote is not data.
>
> Maybe it's better than no information at all. But what we really need is
> rigorous and independent cycle life testing, using enough samples for
> statistically valid results.
>
> Lee Hart may not have the sample size yet, but in my book his controlled
> cell and battery testing has more credibility than dozens of anecdotal
> reports.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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[EVDL] Canadian EVDL members

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Hi all.

I'm pushing one of my startups to Canada. It's about EV charging.

I would like to ask all Canadian EV users to help me with some research
about the charging infrastructures at home.

Specifically outlets and voltages are in interest.

Please send me off list some information what kind of outlets you use for
charging.

BR,
Jukka

P.S.- I hope I'm not intruding too much and stretch the code of EVDL here :)
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Re: [EVDL] Ground Faults

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

This leakage issue has to be resolved ASAP. It's pretty serious thing if
our cell cases create bridges to chassis. Please send me all data&pictures
of these cases.
-Jukka
President in Europe
TSWEG

torstai 2. kesäkuuta 2016 Lee Hart via EV  kirjoitti:

> Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
>> One solution is to make sure you have a good ground connection and not
>> use GFCI.
>>
>
> That was my solution for years with floodeds. Use an isolation
> transformer. Plug the charger into it. It's a straightforward and safe
> solution.
>
> I still have some big 2kw 120/240vac toroids for $50 you need one.
>
> The US standard is ridiculously sensitive at 5 mA while in Europe the
>> residential
>> GFCI trigger at 30 mA.
>>
>
> Where you set the standard depends on what you consider an "acceptable
> risk" for serious injury or death. 1 death per 100 incidents? 1 in a
> thousand? 1 in a million?
>
> Hospitals use a very low 0.5ma standard, because an infant or invalid in
> bed is already weak, and can't remove themselves from the source of the
> shock. They want the risk to be essentially zero.
>
> 5ma is reasonable for small devices and where kids, the elderly, or infirm
> are involved. It's painful, but very unlikely to be fatal. Allowing a
> higher current reduces the cost of meeting it, so they traded off the cost
> vs the benefit.
>
> 30ma is pretty high. That's enough to kill even a normal healthy person
> under the right circumstances. I suspect this was chosen to minimize cost
> of compliance. It's also easier to meet for large machines, where there are
> many possible leakage paths (like an EV with hundreds of modules).
>
> Success hunting the leakage ghosts!
>>
>
> There's something strange
> Doing under the hood
> Getting shocks and pains
> And it don't look good
> Leaky posts to ground?
> And they can't be found?
> Who ya gonna call?
> POST BUSTERS!
>
> ...I ain't 'fraid of no posts! :-)
>
> --
> "IC chip performance doubles every 18 months." -- Moore's law
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." -- Gates' law
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] French man electrocuted while trying to steal petrolfrom an EV> a burning smell was noticed

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

:D

It was funny to us but people who are not so educated about EVs may believe
this kind of junk. I've seen laws being prepared on BS like this (or is
there other way? :P ).

In theory if the vehicle was a conversion with non-steel battery
compartment and had unisolated charging procedure on-going and from outlet
with no ground fault detectors and there was heavy rain or wet ground and
the person there would have been grounded with no gloves and used
conductive hose (?). Then maybe. But more likely one could get two jackpots
from national lottery in a row.

EV charging outlets are mostly equipped with ground fault detector and the
chargers are isolated. At least all new installations. So no realistic way
to get electrocuted during charging from battery DC.

So if it was not charging. What then?

Battery packs are on nearly all EVs isolated from the chassis. Even then
being enough lucky to find the most highest potential against the chassis
would be stunning performance of accuracy with that spike. But even then
there would need to be the other leakage to chassis from the isolated side.
Effectively there would have been a isolation problem with the car already
and it should prevent any operation.

This kind of 'news' have to be explained to audience how impossible they
are. Not long time ago I still met people who thought electric cars cannot
be used while it rains. Unbelievable...

-Jukka


2016-05-27 1:39 GMT+03:00 Cor van de Water via EV :

> Everyone jumping on the French article about the electrocuted Frenchman
> trying to steal petrol from an EV: please read the "A propos" from that
> site, it contains the following phrases about this website:
>
> ===
> Articles published on this website are all written in a parodic purpose,
> satirical, humorous. Often three at a time. Everything is wrong and we
> do not even ashamed.
>
> The actions and quotes attributed to real people - and the facts about
> them - are false and imagined in a satirical perspective. Be cool.
> ===
>
> So that may explain the doubts about the veracity of this story, which
> is completely made-up as a caricature of the French plight under the
> current strikes. And France is pretty EV-savy, for many years there have
> been thousands of car share vehicles in the capital Paris. Plugged-in
> curb-side.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 2:27 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] French man electrocuted while trying to steal
> petrolfrom an EV> a burning smell was noticed
>
> On 26 May 2016 at 16:10, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
> >  IIRC Tesla has pretty a sturdy protective encasement for its battery
>
> Ooops, nothing in the article says it was a Tesla.  My mistake.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hotel Chargers

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Call the hotel and ask if they have electricity in the building at all. :D
Why it has become so hard to get a charge?
Everyone on this EVDL know there is no real technical issues with this.

Here's a fun detail for you to talk about over EV dinners:
We have already close to *two million* charging sockets installed so you
cannot avoid one. It's on ~60% of ALL parking spaces in the country.
Norway might have most EV per capita, but Finland has most charging sockets
per capita (population 5,5M, 2M sockets). :)
Cheap, effective, durable, well tested (at least 30.000.000.000 plug-in
events so far), easy and fast to install.
"What else?"

So if you're looking for a travel and a good destination charging options
head to Finland! After 2017 tours available to new battery factory too. ;)

-Jukka



2016-04-28 12:28 GMT+03:00 via EV :

>  I wish it was an 'S'
>
> I have a gen 2 Volt (2016). Yeah I know, I have ICE backup so maybe it's
> not a big deal, but I get 50-60+ miles range on EV mode and would like to
> maximize it's use, especially when I get to my destination and am driving
> around town (it has 'Hold' mode to reserve battery during long trips).
>
> As an aside, I am extremely impressed with the new model Volt. They fixed
> everything I didn't like about the first model. It's just a really nice
> car. Even the reviewers are having a hard time beating it up.
>
> -SteveS
>
>
> On 04/27/16, Michael Willuweit wrote:
>
> Assuming you're traveling in a Model S what I would recommend is to open
> plugshare and deselect all charger options other than "Tesla (S) EV plugs."
> You'll see a list that's pretty much Tesla service/retail spots and
> hotels. It seems a lot of smaller lodges and bed and breakfast spots have
> Tesla plugs. Hopefully there's some in the area you are traveling through.
> Safe EV travels,
> Michael
>
> > On Apr 27, 2016, at 6:47 PM, via EV  wrote:
> >
> > I'm going on a trip tomorrow and will be staying at a hotel. I tried to
> look for hotels that offered EV charging. I cannot find any simple way to
> do that search. I see Marriott has a list of hotels with chargers, and of
> course PlugShare can list all EV chargers in an area and you can search
> through that. But I see no comprehensive way to search for hotels in area
> that have chargers. Seems odd to me. There are enough EVs now that hotels
> should see offering charging as a competitive advantage. It's certainly
> high on my list.
> >
> > Am I missing something? How do you find hotels with EV charging?
> >
> > -SteveS
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Re: [EVDL] EV Question

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

1) I think the standards are still a nutty mix and therefore there is no
general guide. I think all EV's come with manual which tells thing or two
about charging.

2) In general you do not park to any charging post if not charging. It's
part of the 'EV code' and a polite thing to do. You adjust your charging
speed according parking time. So no 2 hours of shopping while car is done
in 30 minutes. So if there's ICE spilling oil on the EV spot... that's just
ugly.

I suggest all EV charging spots to have a cone or something which says
explicitly only EV's allowed. It's less trouble to get off the EV and move
the cone compared to blocked charging when needed.

-Jukka

2016-04-06 0:54 GMT+03:00 Amanda Le via EV :

> Hello,
>
> 1. Does an electric vehicle charging station (EVCS) guide exist? (ideal
> format will include manufacturer information in chart form for public Level
> 2 charging stations)
>
> 2. Does a guide exist with solutions for ICE vehicle parking in EV-only
> parking spots?
>
> Thank you!
>
>
> -Amanda Le
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Slower bartender's method crams 0.7% more charge into li-ion

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Good news if they have been able to pinpoint and remove accurately their
side reactions from their cells. What to do depends greatly what kind of
cell it is. Chemistry, particle mechanics, layer thicknesses, age, etc...
But in general stuffing anything in anything has to be done with knowledge.
All has to be in the context. It's like denying 4,35V for LiFePO4 would not
be beneficial. ;) -Jukka

2016-03-16 10:55 GMT+02:00 EVDL Administrator via EV :

> On 16 Mar 2016 at 0:56, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > The maneuver packs an extra 0.7 percent of energy into the battery. Not
> > much, but it can make a big difference in an electric vehicle
>
> Wow, a whole 0.7 miles extra for a 100 mile range vehicle.  As the writer
> says, what a big difference that is in an electric vehicle!  And all it
> costs is the cycle life of the battery.  Such a deal.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: EV4Sale: $2500 '02 Focus conversion-EV, needs 144V pack r:40mi ts:75+mph

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Elcat's have 72 or 78 volt packs and Curtis controller. There are some pots
for adjusting at the side of the controller. I've used 24, 25 and 26 cells
in conversions from SLA to LiFePO4. TS 400Ah cells are enough for a small
EV like the Elcat is.
http://ewww.evalbum.com/4690
http://ewww.evalbum.com/3811

-Jukka

2015-12-20 20:21 GMT+02:00 Mike Nickerson via EV :

> I think you might have two problems running at lower voltage.
>
> First, I am not completely familiar with the Curtis controllers, but I
> think I have heard they are fussy on the low side of their voltage range.
>
> Second, you would need more current out of the cells and controller to get
> the same performance with the lower voltage.  Depending on the lithium cell
> size and composition, you might have trouble with that.  My 100 Ah
> ThunderSky cells really don't put out more than 200A.  Happier with 100A.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On December 20, 2015 11:14:46 AM MST, Charles Galpin via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >For the group - what’s the feasibility of running this on a 76V lithium
> >ion pack?  The specs on his controller say 96V minimum or can you
> >actually go lower? If I got something like this Curtis 1253-8002 would
> >it perform ok at the lower voltage? If you retained the clutch I’d
> >imagine it would by using the full gear range, just not as peppy?
> >
> >http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/curtis-dc-controller-used-en.html
> >
> >
> >I have 24 x TS-LFP400AHA (used and really unknown condition) batteries
> >that it would be nice to be able to use in this but I am not sure it be
> >a good idea (assuming I can make them fit without too much trouble).
> >
> >Josh, is it drivable, enough for a test drive? Would you trust a
> >teenager driving it after replacing the pack?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >charles
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 20, 2015, at 3:14 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [ref
> >>
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/FS-2002-Ford-Focus-EV-conversion-2500-tp4679247.html
> >> (See this evdl post for all the technical details)
> >> ]
> >>
> >> % IMO Replacing the batteries is not a reason for Josh to label the
> >EV a
> >> 'project' car. Assuming the existing old pack still has enough life
> >to drive
> >> a 1 mile test loop to show it is a functioning EV, it would be easy
> >enough
> >> to buy 14  8VDC lead-acid batteries (for about $1400) and drop them
> >in.
> >>
> >> So, what else could need work to make Josh use those words?
> >> (Below is his reply> nothing really)
> >>
> >>
> >> *Bottom line: IMO I would not call this a 'project EV' as it needs
> >little
> >> effort to get the EV back to being a daily driver again (just a new
> >pack).
> >> From what I can see, this is a nice clean Focus conversion-EV that
> >just
> >> needs a new 144VDC (x14 8V PbSO4 $1400) pack.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you were to buy this EV, you would transport it home, document
> >> (write-down) all the battery cabling orientation as a diagram (which
> >way are
> >> the + & - battery terminals oriented, etc.), then remove the old 8V
> >> batteries placing them out for pick up. Clean up the racks and cable
> >ends,
> >> and order replacment 8V batteries which you would buy locally for a
> >better
> >> price and fresher pack (all the same manufactured date).
> >>
> >> Buying 14  8V batteries from one source should be cheaper than buying
> >> individual batteries and a better idea. While 'Trojan' is the best
> >and most
> >> costly
> >>
> >
> http://bradsgolfcars.com/golf-car-batteries/trojan-t-875-8-volt-golf-car-battery/
> >> , look for a 'US_Battery' dealer near you. Most likely they will sell
> >you 14
> >> 8V batteries, deliver them and pick up your old pack at the same time
> >(they
> >> give a discounted price if they get a dead battery for each new
> >battery).
> >>
> >> Then using the documentation and cabling diagram you made, put the
> >new
> >> batteries in place oriented correctly, and then cable them up. The
> >pack
> >> voltage should be about 144 VDC. Put them on a light charge, and
> >*after they
> >> are fully charged, you can add 'distilled water' to the cells (to the
> >ring).
> >> After a week of driving, check the battery lugs for tightness, and
> >check
> >> them there-after when you do your pack's monthly cell-water-level
> >checks.
> >>
> >> Here are some of the large images from his evalbum listing:
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?18286
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?18287
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?18290
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/popupimg.php?18291
> >>
> >> Contact the seller (not me): Josh Wyatt
> >> e...@wirefall.org   evdl AT wirefall DOT org
> >> http://www.evalbum.com/3493
> >> %
> >>
> >>
> >> {brucedp.150m.com}
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >> On Sat, 12/19/15, Josh Wyatt  wrote:
> >> Subject: Re: EV for sale
> >> Date: Saturday, December 19, 2015, 4:23 P

Re: [EVDL] UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I saw one graph which stated the energy usage for oil refining to gasoline.
It's stated 23g of CO2 for each driven kilometer just for that part. With
our mix on electricity there was 19g of CO2 per kilometer on EV. From this
one could derive that producing gasoline solely is already consuming more
electricity what you use in the EV. So you do not need to even think about
the gas stations. We are better off if we just leave the gasoline
unrefined. That's already enough to compensate all EVs.
-Jukka


2015-12-04 17:21 GMT+02:00 Robert Bruninga via EV :

> > EVs will be very good for the grid…but not because we’ll be shutting down
> > gas stations.
>
> Agreed, completely.  But my point was that I have never seen anyone look at
> this point of view as to what electricity is saved by not moving so much
> gas
> around everywhere.  Though small, It’s a data point we need to include in
> our quiver and come up with some numbers...
>
> Bob
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The elevated temperature for Li-ion performance was known method at NEDRA
PIR and Wayland invitationals like 10 yrs back. I was there and I kept
telling this what we saw in our cell tests back then. Higher death rate
too. NMC cells from TS at that time could be preheated with high current
charging just before peak load as it drove more li-ions in right places as
additional effect. This also killed the cell in a way that you needed to
elevate the temperature more on every cycle to get same power out. At
normal temperature the cell had become "bad cell" after few cycles. We
could now design and make 100C peak cells for dragsters with bi-polar
structure and solid stacking. The lessons learned keep pushing the horizon
further which we recognize as our technological limit. We are living truly
exciting times. -Jukka


2015-11-18 14:17 GMT+02:00 Paul Dove via EV :

> I was speaking of performance
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Nov 17, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >> Years ago, before improvements in testing, that may have been applied to
> >> "work better," but definitely, high temps are not a recipe for "works
> >> longer."
> >
> > This is true for *all* battery chemistries, as far as I know. Higher
> temperatures always increase their amphour capacity (and shorten their
> life).
> >
> > --
> > Do the thing that needs to be done, even if no one else yet notices
> > that it needs doing. -- anonymous
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Big-Electric Shocks Big-Oil

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Until the stored kWh cost is 1 or 2 c. The grid is much more complex system
which has idling cost. Home battery with 20yr life expectancy and $100/kWh
price tag is pretty hard to fight. The future might hold home appliance
infrastucture which has batteries everywhere. Starting from lights and
tooth brushes to computers, microwaves and media interfaces (aka TV). Every
thing will have it's own battery to be part of IoT. -Jukka
28.10.2015 3.56 "Michael Ross via EV"  kirjoitti:

> Make the grid obsolete?  The grid is mighty handy for moving electrons from
> places of excess to places of scarcity.  Any person or event or business
> that can't make all they need will find the grid valuable.  Far better to
> use an effective infrastructure than say rail cars of batteries? Or big
> cans of H2?
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Re: [EVDL] Securing your portable L1 EVSE

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I have to wonder again how in earth have we survived so many decades
without those boxes? How many died or got a shock?

Luckily we are getting back to the easy life as the cables will be 'dumb'
again... all that smart stuff will be in the car and in the socket.

-Jukka
20.10.2015 17.24 "Bill Dube via EV"  kirjoitti:

> I latch the truck lid down on the cords in my Leaf, like the fellow with
> the Volt did in the video. Locks all the expensive charger bits in the car.
> You can also put it on the seat and run the window nearly closed, but that
> is not quite as secure. It is easier on the cords, however.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] When testing DriveNow hire service, we IMMEDIATELY crashed their i3 EV

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I have a strong feeling Tesla is actually going for this car-as-service
route with their Model 3. It might not be even a 'new' car which can be
bought. Instead it could be just modified/stripped Model S with autonomous
driving. But this is just my guessing as this would be something which I
would do if I had a role in Tesla.

Why I have this 'feeling'.

European trend seems to be away from owning the car. It's a nuisance.

Also.

The thing is, while Tesla is doing many things right, they do not perhaps
realize how all other car manufacturers are going to hit below $100/kWh
with their batteries very quickly. And that's at the pack level. It looks
like that since factory investment costs are dropping like a rock now.
Water based process and some other things rethought has brought us to close
where one machine builds the cells without dry/clean room requirements.
Also it's super fast that way with much less work force needed to operate.

Investment cost was about $1/Wh/annum in 2010. GigaFactory is going for
10c/Wh/annum (while includes raw material processing). But we are going to
see well below 1c/Wh/annum costs before 2018. Calculations reveal even
lower numbers but there are still few questions to be answered before we
have a completely tested and working dry powder process. So I see no
trouble in achieving end customer prices of $100/kWh at pack level.

If Model 3 is going be sold at $35k there is going to be a lot of $20k
versions from Nissan/Ford/GM etc. This calls for the superior Tesla
mentality to rethink/reinvent the business.

-Jukka

p.s.- This $/Wh/annum is a way to compare how much the initial investment
cost is compared the factory output on the 1st full production year. It's
easily misused but in this case it gives a good way to compare 'apples' to
'other apples' and what you get with your money.



2015-10-08 11:38 GMT+03:00 brucedp5 via EV :

>
>
> http://www.t3.com/features/bmw-drivenow-hands-on
> We tested BMW's DriveNow on-street car hire service and IMMEDIATELY crashed
> the car
> By Duncan Bell  [20151002]
>
> [image
> http://media.t3.com/img/resized/bm/xxl_BMW-DriveNow2-970-80.jpg
> (i3)
> ]
>
> Available in the London area, we reckon it was definitely the other guy's
> fault
>
> BMW's DriveNow service allows Londoners to pick up a choice of BMW and MINI
> cars, including the T3 Award-winning, all-electric BMW i3. We tried it out,
> and almost immediately got involved in a crash, but up to that point we
> were
> highly impressed.
>
> The DriveNow service is available in the north east of London only so far,
> on the areas covered by this map. There are 270 cars in total, including
> BMW
> 1 Series and Mini Countrymans (Countrymen?) and the big prize, 30 BMW i3
> electric cars.
>
> You register here [
> https://uk.drive-now.com/#!/register/1
> ]- there's a £29 fee - and download the app [
> https://uk.drive-now.com/
> ], which is for iOS only, here. The app's key functionality - unlocking the
> cars - also works on Apple Watch.
>
> The killer feature of DriveNow is that you can leave the cars anywhere you
> want, within the above zone. Well okay, you can't leave them blocking a
> junction, but you can freely deposit them in any parking space, gratis.
>
> We found registration straightforward, apart from the fact that it took
> three attempts to upload our documents. It also took a day or so for the
> driving history to start appearing.
>
> With the likes of Zipcar well established, this kind of on-street, smart
> car-hiring service is not new but BMW has innovated by adding features such
> as having a fuel guage on the app, and also an easy filtering system to
> find
> the type of car you're after.
>
> The app's sidebar is overly busy with options and could do with some
> reorganisation, and it's not very clear that you can use the app to call
> customer services, especially when you are, for instance, in a panicked
> mindset after an accident.
>
> Now, to be fair, we only discovered this because, upon settling into our
> BMW
> i3, having opened it via the app, we set off and were almost immediately
> involved in a minor shunt that we swear is not our fault. We eventually
> managed to contact customer services via the car's onboard computer, and
> they were very helpful.
>
> DriveNow is a joint venture between BMW and rental company Sixt SE, with
> Vodafone providing the communications infrastructure in London. It operates
> in eight cities around the world as well as London: Berlin, Hamburg,
> Munich,
> Cologne, Dusseldorf, San Francisco, Vienna, Copenhagen and Norwich. No
> okay,
> not Norwich.
>
> The nature of DriveNow is such that you don't have to pay for tax or fuel,
> and insurance is also included. Although to quite what extent the insurance
> covers you, we'll have to let you know once this thing works itself out.
>
> Other costs are 39p per minute when driving, 19p per minute when parked up
> without having ended the hire period, and you do have to cough up for
> London's mu

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

That is very true. It's 'cool' to drive EV's nowadays. They're fun and
quick but also safe. That fame is all thanks to Tesla. But for some reason
NEDRA did not achieve the same results while it was quick and fun. Too
nerdy to be associated to?

It seems to be a combination of many things while creating possibilities
for others being able to associate to something as fun as that. Did I make
any sense here? :) Be desirable, create need and provide something to
satisfy the need.

That F-350 is selling because it is or at least it was heavily supported
through taxation. It's considered to be safe as people on that ramming
device would walk away on most of the head on collisions. The thing is only
train or Leopard 2A4 prevails against semi truck. It would stun everyone if
Smart, Tango or Aptera did that.

Before this happens people desire safe 3 ton battery-on-wheels EV.

-Jukka


2015-09-29 19:23 GMT+03:00 Sean Korb via EV :

> I'm trying to imagine the survivability rate of an F-350 Dually in a head
> on collision with a semi.  A lot of selling a vehicle to customers is
> perception, not what they might experience in the real world.
>
> Most of what is needed is the perception of fun, and while other car buyers
> have different priorities, this is the one that will win out, heavy, light,
> armored or exposed.  If it seems not-fun; it won't sell.
>
> Fortunately most EV sales are targeted well at this market :)
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jukka Järvinen 
> wrote:
>
> > I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just
> > has to be taken with extreme measures.
> >
> > If one could build that economic bullet-shaped
> > Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on
> > head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts
> off
> > from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be
> > good.
> >
> > But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the
> Dumb
> > and dumber movie  No sale.
> >
> > -Jukka
> > p.s.- don't shoot the messenger...
> >
> > http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
> >
> > 2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :
> >
> > > I think that's part of the reason.
> > >
> > > EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either.
> > Part
> > > of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility,
> > part
> > > of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very
> > > small cars.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Easy,
> > > > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most
> > > people are afraid of them.
> > > >
> > > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest
> tech,
> > > and green people, those are the customer base.
> > > > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions
> > > and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of
> > other
> > > expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys
> only
> > > choice is a Prius.
> > > > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the
> > best
> > > EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market
> > and
> > > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> > > > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government
> makes
> > > them so naturally they inferior.
> > > > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars
> have
> > > never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> > > > Paul
> > > >  From: rayfellow via EV 
> > > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big
> > Battery
> > > Pack?
> > > >
> > > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light
> Car.
> > > It
> > > > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in
> 2008
> > -
> > > > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
> > > electric.
> > > > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
> > > weighed
> > > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
> > > impressed
> > > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers.
> > > >
> > > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and
> heavy.
> > I
> > > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I
> > wrong!
> > > No
> > > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the
> 300wh
> > > for
> > > > the Tesla.
> > > >
> > > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
> > > waiting
> > > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
> > > answer
> > > > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap
> > > compared
> > > > 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just
has to be taken with extreme measures.

If one could build that economic bullet-shaped
Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on
head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts off
from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be
good.

But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the Dumb
and dumber movie  No sale.

-Jukka
p.s.- don't shoot the messenger...

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :

> I think that's part of the reason.
>
> EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part
> of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part
> of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very
> small cars.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Easy,
> > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most
> people are afraid of them.
> >
> > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech,
> and green people, those are the customer base.
> > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions
> and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other
> expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only
> choice is a Prius.
> > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best
> EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and
> filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes
> them so naturally they inferior.
> > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have
> never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> > Paul
> >  From: rayfellow via EV 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
> Pack?
> >
> > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car.
> It
> > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 -
> > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
> electric.
> > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
> weighed
> > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
> impressed
> > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers.
> >
> > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I
> > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong!
> No
> > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh
> for
> > the Tesla.
> >
> > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
> waiting
> > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
> answer
> > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap
> compared
> > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
> > heavy user is still not all that much.
> >
> > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously,
> > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and
> yet
> > no one wants them.
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

AH! But our conversions were always compromises as the new technology did
not fit nicely anywhere. Light vehicles are OK but majority of people do
not think that way. They require 'safe' cars and that's what sells. It
would be far more better if everyone worked from home and only walked
around the house. On the other hand Model S like heavy vehicles push the
agenda further. It opens a fast track for technology development as more
capital is needed for R&D and it is not justified until there is proven
demand for the technology. So I think it is a bit academic debate which
would be better as market environment pushes things to certain direction
anyway. Yes. Also I'm happy if more li-ion cells are sold and manufactured
as it's what pays my bills :D   But seriously. Light cars like Smart and
even lighter 3-wheelers are economic but they are actually just horrible to
drive. At least on our roads. Thou I would have loved to drive Aptera
because how beautiful it looked. I have no idea how it handled. To throw
something in on this debate I would like to encourage people to think a bit
further what it comes to batteries. We are going to see some pretty nice
things during next couple of years. -Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-29 0:30 GMT+03:00 Lawrence Rhodes via EV :

> Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.  If you converted or
> built a small light vehicle using a kit as are available you will find that
> you will gain in every area with a small pack and light vehicle.  Look at
> Stella Lux.  Pushing a 700 mile range with 15kw pack.   Look at what the
> Tesla could do with a light vehicle.  Because of the 85 to 90kw pack the
> car must be much heavier to carry the weight.  Carrying more weight hurts
> range so it is a vicious cycle of over engineering.  375 miles on 16kw or
> 300 miles on 85kw.  I will take the lighter alternative...add solar and you
> never need plugging in as solar makes sense on light vehiclesnot heavy
> ones like we convert.  Lawrence Rhodes
>   From: Jukka Järvinen 
>  To: Peri Hartman ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes ; "
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>  Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 2:00 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
> Pack?
>
> I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the
> battery sizing.
> While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable
> stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will
> have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15
> years. Also people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It
> has nothing to do with the battery size.
> But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh
> pack is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain
> 0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less
> the larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less
> temperature rise during use. Also the discharge side has to be considered.
> You might not need more than 20kW to move one econobox but see how Model S
> P85D puts the EV's on the map. Our budget conversions could not do that. We
> need to admit that. Sorry.
> What makes all the difference for the business is how much does the
> battery cost. We will see less than $100/kWh before 2020. Or at least it is
> possible but if demand is high it sets the price level. On the other hand
> Tesla may provide Model 3 as a service and they will own the cars always.
> Then it does not matter how much the cells cost. You just pay that 10c/mi
> and nothing else. So it does not matter if it weights 2, 3 or 5 tons. Even
> less if the car drives itself.  :)
> -Jukka
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
> 2015-09-28 23:39 GMT+03:00 Peri Hartman via EV :
>
> I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter vehicles
> are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference
> in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city
> streets.
>
> For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on
> accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go
> 60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
>
>
> The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If
> you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.
> The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other
> of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give good range with
> a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the battery
sizing.

While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable
stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will
have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15
years. Also people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It
has nothing to do with the battery size.

But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh
pack is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain
0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less
the larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less
temperature rise during use. Also the discharge side has to be considered.
You might not need more than 20kW to move one econobox but see how Model S
P85D puts the EV's on the map. Our budget conversions could not do that. We
need to admit that. Sorry.

What makes all the difference for the business is how much does the battery
cost. We will see less than $100/kWh before 2020. Or at least it is
possible but if demand is high it sets the price level. On the other hand
Tesla may provide Model 3 as a service and they will own the cars always.
Then it does not matter how much the cells cost. You just pay that 10c/mi
and nothing else. So it does not matter if it weights 2, 3 or 5 tons. Even
less if the car drives itself.  :)

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-28 23:39 GMT+03:00 Peri Hartman via EV :

> I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter vehicles
> are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference
> in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city
> streets.
>
> For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on
> accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go
> 60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
>
> The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If
>> you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.
>> The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other
>> of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give good range with
>> a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.  The I3 is going in
>> the right direction.  It has a relatively small pack and is more efficient
>> than all the other competitors.If however you have a light vehicle
>> around a thousand pounds your range will be close to 350 miles with a 16kw
>> battery pack.  The vehicle needs to have a CD of about .16.  With these
>> specifications you don't have to have a big pack.  It will charge in 2.5
>> hours with a 6.6kw charger.  Efficiency and charging time should be the
>> goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker the charge.  Also the packs will last
>> longer as they are not stressed as much by carrying large weights.
>> Engineering the right combination is what is needed.  Not 85kw packs in
>> 5000 pound cars...however they are very comfortable and useful as is and
>> better than the ICE alternative.  Lawrence Rhodes
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150928/dcb4a2f9/attachment.htm
>> >
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea> weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

No. I'm saying there were tons of gasoline powered scooters and motorcycles
in the cities in China (like Shenzhen). Now they have been replaced by
electric scooters and electric bicycles. The electric scooter is usually
with SLA batteries and weights about 120kg (270 lbs). The electric bicycle
is also with SLA and weights about 65kg (147 lbs). Those electric bicycles
have also pedals like normal bicycles but they are just for emergency use.
One just twist the grip and zip away. No pedaling needed. One can see
lighter electric bicycles (20kg/45 lbs) too which have li-ion battery under
the cargo rack behind the seat. Sometimes there is actually another padded
seat instead cargo rack. It's for one to 8 passengers. XD
I think the three wheeled motorcycle-tractor is still the most common
vehicle in China just after standard bicycle.
-Jukka


2015-08-24 20:13 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :

> Very interesting.
> So you're saying that there are tons of gasoline-powered assisted bikes in
> China, and that these are what's being replaced, not non-assisted bikes.
>
> I've never been to China, so I really don't know. I appreciate the
> information.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 24, 2015, at 1:22 AM, Jukka Järvinen 
> wrote:
> >
> > When the comparison is done fair we should look what the electric bike
> replaces. We should not compare unaided bicycles to electrically assisted
> ones.
> >
> > In China many electric bicycles are much sturdier than ones without
> electric assistance. So one can zip away on the streets with the bike and 3
> other family members on it. While this is getting rarer sight in China as
> many are switching to cars or small three wheeled EVs this still is quite
> common. Things are changing as they have money for cars. People use
> electric assisted bicycles in there also because they wish to get around
> without being in need to change the clothes couple times a day. It get's
> hot and humidity is high. In this case electric bicycle replaces gasoline
> scooter/motorcycle which also stink and the smell is on the clothes for the
> rest of the day.
> >
> > Usually pedals are on those 'bicycles' only for the situation if the
> battery dies. Depleted or just completely dies.
> >
> > Average food delivery person with bicycle would not be an average Joe or
> Jane. It takes commitment to the sport. In NYC there are bicycle lanes
> (right?). So taking scooter/motorcycle there would be illegal. Assisted
> bicycles are allowed on those lanes (usually) and one can get pretty
> quickly from point A to B. A hybrid solution which has good things from
> bicycles and scooters.
> >
> > China has taken leaps towards cleaner transportation and CO2 free
> electricity generation. Not saying anyone else would not be doing the same
> but in China case they are trying to avoid mistakes we have done in the
> past and are going to leave some things undone. This is why I stated what I
> did. EVs are a standard in China traffic already. More miles are driven in
> many places with electric bicycles/scooters/etc than with gasoline
> cars/scooters/motorcycles. They are getting to the broader end of the
> hockey stick far faster than us.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> > 2015-08-23 3:35 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :
> >> Aren't EV miles *dirtier* for bikes? Don't they mostly use unassisted
> bikes?
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jukka Järvinen 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I bet this guy did not even know he was doing something wrong. As
> this is standard procedure on many Chinese cities. :D Most get away without
> a single scratch as everyone knows bicycles are everywhere. Which is
> exactly the opposite situation in most US cities. Right?
> >> >
> >> > The thing to observe here could be how Chinese drive billions of
> electric miles every day. Now that's something to talk about!
> >> >
> >> > BR,
> >> > Jukka
> >> >
> >> > 22.8.2015 22.19 "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
> kirjoitti:
> >> >> Not sure what this has to do with EVs, unless you're implying that
> the electrification of his bike had something to do with his lunacy.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 12:59 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/man-bike-traffic-holland-tunnel-article-1.2326089
> >> >> > Deliveryman on electric bike arrested after heading into Holland
> Tunnel
> >> >> > against traffic
> >> >> > BY Thomas Tracy  /  August 14, 2015
> >> >> >
> >> >> > [images  / Port Authority Police Department
> >> >> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2326088.1439577248!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_400/tunnel15n-2-web.jpg
> >> >> > (mugshot) Yongshun Bu, 44, was arrested by the Port Authority
> Police when he
> >> >> > rode an electric scooter into the westbound Holland Tunnel,
> weaving against
> >> >> > traffic
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.

Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea> weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

When the comparison is done fair we should look what the electric bike
replaces. We should not compare unaided bicycles to electrically assisted
ones.

In China many electric bicycles are much sturdier than ones without
electric assistance. So one can zip away on the streets with the bike and 3
other family members on it. While this is getting rarer sight in China as
many are switching to cars or small three wheeled EVs this still is quite
common. Things are changing as they have money for cars. People use
electric assisted bicycles in there also because they wish to get around
without being in need to change the clothes couple times a day. It get's
hot and humidity is high. In this case electric bicycle replaces gasoline
scooter/motorcycle which also stink and the smell is on the clothes for the
rest of the day.

Usually pedals are on those 'bicycles' only for the situation if the
battery dies. Depleted or just completely dies.

Average food delivery person with bicycle would not be an average Joe or
Jane. It takes commitment to the sport. In NYC there are bicycle lanes
(right?). So taking scooter/motorcycle there would be illegal. Assisted
bicycles are allowed on those lanes (usually) and one can get pretty
quickly from point A to B. A hybrid solution which has good things from
bicycles and scooters.

China has taken leaps towards cleaner transportation and CO2 free
electricity generation. Not saying anyone else would not be doing the same
but in China case they are trying to avoid mistakes we have done in the
past and are going to leave some things undone. This is why I stated what I
did. EVs are a standard in China traffic already. More miles are driven in
many places with electric bicycles/scooters/etc than with gasoline
cars/scooters/motorcycles. They are getting to the broader end of the
hockey stick far faster than us.

-Jukka


2015-08-23 3:35 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :

> Aren't EV miles *dirtier* for bikes? Don't they mostly use unassisted
> bikes?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jukka Järvinen 
> wrote:
> >
> > I bet this guy did not even know he was doing something wrong. As this
> is standard procedure on many Chinese cities. :D Most get away without a
> single scratch as everyone knows bicycles are everywhere. Which is exactly
> the opposite situation in most US cities. Right?
> >
> > The thing to observe here could be how Chinese drive billions of
> electric miles every day. Now that's something to talk about!
> >
> > BR,
> > Jukka
> >
> > 22.8.2015 22.19 "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  kirjoitti:
> >> Not sure what this has to do with EVs, unless you're implying that the
> electrification of his bike had something to do with his lunacy.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 12:59 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/man-bike-traffic-holland-tunnel-article-1.2326089
> >> > Deliveryman on electric bike arrested after heading into Holland
> Tunnel
> >> > against traffic
> >> > BY Thomas Tracy  /  August 14, 2015
> >> >
> >> > [images  / Port Authority Police Department
> >> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2326088.1439577248!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_400/tunnel15n-2-web.jpg
> >> > (mugshot) Yongshun Bu, 44, was arrested by the Port Authority Police
> when he
> >> > rode an electric scooter into the westbound Holland Tunnel, weaving
> against
> >> > traffic
> >> >
> >> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2326087.1439577247!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/tunnel15n-1-web.jpg
> >> > Bu was riding this electric bike through the tunnel, going against
> traffic.
> >> > He was making an early morning food delivery, according to law
> enforcement
> >> > sources.
> >> > ]
> >> >
> >> > This was a wheely bad idea.
> >> >
> >> > A deliveryman on an electric bicycle was arrested after he zipped
> into the
> >> > Holland Tunnel against traffic and veered around oncoming cars as he
> made
> >> > his way across the Hudson River span, officials said Friday.
> >> >
> >> > Yongshun Bu, 44, and his motorized bike entered the westbound lane at
> the
> >> > Manhattan end of the tunnel at 7 p.m. Thursday and was seen recklessly
> >> > riding around traffic, ignoring signs and verbal instructions to pull
> over,
> >> > according to Port Authority spokesman Joe Pentangelo.
> >> >
> >> > Bu, who was delivering Chinese food according to law enforcement
> sources,
> >> > was ultimately grabbed about 20 yards into the tunnel and charged with
> >> > criminal trespass.
> >> >
> >> > His wrong-way trip through the tunnel caused a short traffic
> disruption,
> >> > but no one was hurt, officials said.
> >> > [© 2015 NYDailyNews.com]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Food-Delivery-Cyclist-Rushes-Wrong-Way-Through-Holland-Tunnel-Cops-321972742.html
> >> > Food Delivery Cyclist Rushes Wrong Way Through Ho

Re: [EVDL] Bu's e-wheely bad idea> weaving-recklessly the wrongway HT delivery

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I bet this guy did not even know he was doing something wrong. As this is
standard procedure on many Chinese cities. :D Most get away without a
single scratch as everyone knows bicycles are everywhere. Which is exactly
the opposite situation in most US cities. Right?

The thing to observe here could be how Chinese drive billions of electric
miles every day. Now that's something to talk about!

BR,
Jukka
22.8.2015 22.19 "Mark Abramowitz via EV"  kirjoitti:

> Not sure what this has to do with EVs, unless you're implying that the
> electrification of his bike had something to do with his lunacy.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 22, 2015, at 12:59 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/man-bike-traffic-holland-tunnel-article-1.2326089
> > Deliveryman on electric bike arrested after heading into Holland Tunnel
> > against traffic
> > BY Thomas Tracy  /  August 14, 2015
> >
> > [images  / Port Authority Police Department
> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2326088.1439577248!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_400/tunnel15n-2-web.jpg
> > (mugshot) Yongshun Bu, 44, was arrested by the Port Authority Police
> when he
> > rode an electric scooter into the westbound Holland Tunnel, weaving
> against
> > traffic
> >
> >
> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2326087.1439577247!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/tunnel15n-1-web.jpg
> > Bu was riding this electric bike through the tunnel, going against
> traffic.
> > He was making an early morning food delivery, according to law
> enforcement
> > sources.
> > ]
> >
> > This was a wheely bad idea.
> >
> > A deliveryman on an electric bicycle was arrested after he zipped into
> the
> > Holland Tunnel against traffic and veered around oncoming cars as he made
> > his way across the Hudson River span, officials said Friday.
> >
> > Yongshun Bu, 44, and his motorized bike entered the westbound lane at the
> > Manhattan end of the tunnel at 7 p.m. Thursday and was seen recklessly
> > riding around traffic, ignoring signs and verbal instructions to pull
> over,
> > according to Port Authority spokesman Joe Pentangelo.
> >
> > Bu, who was delivering Chinese food according to law enforcement sources,
> > was ultimately grabbed about 20 yards into the tunnel and charged with
> > criminal trespass.
> >
> > His wrong-way trip through the tunnel caused a short traffic disruption,
> > but no one was hurt, officials said.
> > [© 2015 NYDailyNews.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Food-Delivery-Cyclist-Rushes-Wrong-Way-Through-Holland-Tunnel-Cops-321972742.html
> > Food Delivery Cyclist Rushes Wrong Way Through Holland Tunnel: Cops
> > Aug 15, 2015
> >
> > [image
> > http://media.nbcnewyork.com/images/676*367/81515tunnel.jpg
> > (mugshot)
> > ]
> >
> > A restaurant delivery person apparently disappointed hungry customers
> after
> > being arrested by police who said he was weaving through oncoming
> traffic in
> > the wrong lane of the Holland Tunnel.
> >
> > Yongshun Bu, 44, recklessly dodged oncoming traffic, ignored signs and
> > verbal instructions to stop while making a food delivery Friday evening
> on
> > an electric-powered bicycle, Port Authority police said Saturday.
> >
> > Bu was apprehended at the tunnel exit and charged with criminal trespass,
> > police said.
> >
> > There was no information as to whether Bu had obtained a lawyer who could
> > comment on the charge.
> > [© nydailynews.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://cliffviewpilot.com/manhattan-deliveryman-caught-riding-electric-bicycle-through-holland-tunnel/
> > Manhattan deliveryman caught riding electric bicycle through Holland
> Tunnel
> > by: Jerry DeMarco  August 14, 2015
> >
> > BEYOND BERGEN: A lower Manhattan deliveryman rode an electric bicycle
> > through the Holland Tunnel last night, skirting traffic and ignoring
> orders
> > to stop, before officers grabbed him on the New Jersey tube.
> >
> > Yongshun Bu, 44, was delivering food when he “recklessly” drove through
> the
> > tunnel around 7 p.m., the authority’s Joseph Pentangelo told CLIFFVIEW
> > PILOT.
> >
> > Port Authority tunnel and bridge agents combined with PAPD officers to
> take
> > him into custody just inside the exit, he said.
> >
> > The tunnel was cleared and checked for safety reasons, Pentangelo said.
> > [© 2015 Cliffview Pilot]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015/08/lost_deliveryman_rides_wrong-way_into_holland_tunnel_officials_say.html
> > Lost deliveryman rides wrong-way into Holland Tunnel, officials say
> > By Noah Cohen | August 15, 2015
> >
> > NEW YORK — A Chinese food deliveryman trying to bring an order to a
> > Manhattan address got lost, and ended up riding his electric-powered
> bicycle
> > into oncoming traffic at the Holland Tunnel before he was arrested,
> > officials and reports said Friday.
> >
> > Yongshun Bu, 44, piloted the bike around traffic coming from Jersey City,

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 800kWh Saft Battery for Lochinvar Electrified-Ferry

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

FYI The 1st two ferries before this was made with cells and battery
packs from finnish European Batteries. -Jukka
18.7.2015 11.05 "brucedp5 via EV"  kirjoitti:

>
>
> http://insideevs.com/saft-provide-800-kwh-battery-electric-ferry/
> Saft To Provide 800 kWh Battery For Electric Ferry
> [20150716]  by Mark Kane
>
> [images
> http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Hybrid-I%C2%A9CMALCP.jpg
> (Electrified-Ferry)
>
> http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1520saft010system.jpg
> Saft Seanergy
>
>
> video
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpm2TtrOH3Q
> Lochinvar Hybrid Ferry
> Kentphotopics Aug 30, 2014
> The World first Hybrid ferry "Lochinvar", which rans on electric power,
> when
> not running during the night the ferry charges its batteries. The ferry
> runs
> on the Portavadie - Tarbet routes on the West Coast of Scotland.
> ]
>
> Saft announced that it won a contract with Imtech Marine for an 800 kWh
> battery combining two Seanergy systems for the new hybrid-electric ferry
> owned by CMAL in Scotland. Imtech Marine hopes for up to 30% better fuel
> economy, which will be verified after deliveries planed for the second half
> of this year.
>
> “Two Saft Seanergy systems will be at the heart of the diesel-electric
> hybrid propulsion system and energy management system for ‘Hybrid III’, the
> Roll On Roll Off (RORO) passenger and vehicle ferry designed for use on
> Scotland’s short sea crossing routes around the Clyde and Hebrides. The new
> vessel, currently under construction by Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd for
> CMAL (Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd), will be Scotland’s third hybrid
> ferry
> when it enters service in autumn 2016, carrying up to 150 passengers and 23
> cars or two HGVs (Heavy Goods Vehicles). It is being funded by the Scottish
> Government to help meet the target set in its Climate Change Delivery Plan
> to reduce CO2 emissions in the transport sector by at least 20 percent by
> 2020. It will have a service speed of nine knots and because it uses both
> diesel and electric power, its fuel consumption will be significantly lower
> than a conventional ferry, leading to fuel and CO2 emissions that are at
> least one fifth lower than a conventional arrangement.”
>
> Imtech Marine is supplying hybrid propulsion systems for all types of
> vessels and Saft hopes that this first deal will pave the way for more
> orders in the future. Hybrid-electric ferry is some kind of extended-range
> electric car counterpart. In the case of Saft, batteries are Lithium Iron
> Phosphate type with marketing name Super Phosphate (SLFP).
>
> “As a modular system, Seanergy can be scaled to meet any requirements
> up
> to 750 V. The modules are based on Saft’s Li-ion Super Phosphate (SLFP)
> cell
> chemistry, which offers the advantage of improved high energy capability
> and
> optimized total cost of ownership when compared with standard Li-ion
> phosphate technologies. In January 2015, marine industry independent safety
> assessor Bureau Veritas delivered the highest quality assessment for the
> Seanergy modules, establishing that the design conforms to recognised
> industry quality and certification standards. The two Seanergy systems,
> which provide a total of 800 kWh of energy storage, can power the vessel in
> battery mode only and in hybrid mode in combination with a diesel
> generator.
> The batteries will be charged overnight from shore supply while the ferry
> is
> in port. When at sea, Imtech’s energy management system will balance the
> energy delivered by the diesel genset and battery systems to make
> propulsion
> as efficient and clean as possible, enabling the genset to run at peak
> efficiency.”
>
> Jayesh Vir, Saft’s Key Account Manager for the Marine Segment said:
>
> “Interest in hybrid propulsion is growing fast in the maritime sector
> as
> ship owners and operators come under pressure to meet more stringent energy
> efficiency targets. This contract for a very high profile ferry service in
> Scotland is further confirmation that Saft’s Li-ion technology offers a
> reliable, high performance and fully commercialized solution for hybrid
> propulsion on even the largest sea-going vessels.”
> [© insideevs.com]
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
> http://www.carscoops.com/2015/07/lit-motors-c1-two-wheeled-car-or-self.html
> Lit Motors C1 EV still in R&D since 2010
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lit_Motors
>
>
> http://news.hamlethub.com/rye/neighbors/2263-purchase-college-joins-energy-department-s-workplace-charging-challenge-1436455299
> 6 L2 EVSE @suny.edu Albany-NY
> +
> EVLN: $5k Yanxi's diy-built Sports-EV is not allowed on roads.cn
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-800kWh-Saft-Battery-for-Lochinvar-Electrified-Ferry-tp4676807.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> __

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's new weapon is a battery scientist @dal.ca

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

And the most important part of this news was:
“I had to be a part of it,” says Dahn. “It’s the next step.”

And also the reasoning why he said this.

-Jukka


http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-06-24 13:16 GMT+03:00 Michael Ross via EV :
>
> Yep.
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 4:25 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > 'TCO Straubel signed Li-ion research agreement with dal.ca '
> >
> >
> >
http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university.html
> > Charging onward: Dahn’s next move marks first Canadian university
> > collaboration with Tesla Motors
> > Nikki Comeau - June 17, 2015
> >
> > [image
> >
> >
http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434560376735.jpg
> > Dalhousie University's Jeff Dahn (driver's seat) takes a Tesla Model S
for
> > a
> > spin after signing a research agreement with Tesla Motors Co-founder and
> > Chief Technology Officer, JB Straubel. (Daniel Abriel photos)
> >
> >
> >
http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/contentPar/dalphotogallery/featureSlider/featureslide/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434559992298.jpg
> >
> >
> >
http://www.dal.ca/news/2015/06/17/charging-onward--dahns-next-move-marks-first-canadian-university/_jcr_content/contentPar/dalphotogallery/featureSlider/featureslide_0/image.adaptive.480.high.jpg/1434560021531.jpg
> > ]
> >
> > When a Tesla Model S electric vehicle made an appearance at Dalhousie
> > University yesterday, its near silent engine sound and sleek design
> > prompted
> > a symphony of “ohs and ahs” from impressed onlookers. But it was a brand
> > new
> > partnership between Tesla Motors and Dalhousie University that got
members
> > of the Dalhousie research community really excited.
> >
> > On Tuesday morning Tesla Motor’s Co-founder and Chief Technology
Officer JB
> > Straubel signed a research agreement with Dalhousie University’s Jeff
Dahn,
> > lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery researcher with the Faculty of Science and
his
> > group of students, postdoctoral researchers and technical staff.  The
work
> > is set to begin in June of 2016.
> >
> > During a presentation to Dalhousie researchers and representatives,
> > Straubel
> > discussed the importance of the Li-ion battery to the future of Tesla
> > Motors
> > and the recently announced battery business Tesla Energy, a suite of
> > batteries for homes, businesses, and utilities. The Silicon Valley
giant is
> > not just an automotive company, it’s an energy innovation company.
> >
> > “Dalhousie is a national and international leader in advanced materials
and
> > clean technology research,” says Martha Crago, Vice-President, Research
at
> > Dalhousie. “Jeff Dahn is helping to develop Li-ion batteries with
improved
> > lifetime, increased energy density and lower cost. This collaboration
is a
> > natural fit.”
> >
> > Creating a force with electric cars
> > Consider the state of the art Li-ion battery that powers the Model S,
which
> > can accelerate to 100 km/h in under five seconds, and the electric car’s
> > impressive engineering and design innovation really sinks in.
> >
> > Tesla Motors isn’t shy about its mission to accelerate the transition to
> > sustainable transportation around the world. To do so, it plans to
expand
> > beyond a niche market and produce hundreds of thousands of cars a year
and
> > change the entire automotive industry.
> >
> > To drive this change, Tesla is building a Gigafactory in Nevada that
aims
> > to
> > double world production of Li-ion batteries by 2020. In an effort to
bring
> > down the price of Tesla vehicles for the mass market, Tesla will
> > manufacture
> > Li-ion batteries with longer lifespans that cost less to create and be
> > sourced with more materials from North America.
> >
> > When Dahn learned of Tesla’s planned Gigafactory, he wanted in.
> >
> > “I had to be a part of it,” says Dahn. “It’s the next step.”
> >
> > Currently, 3M Canada and the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research
> > Council of Canada (NSERC) fund Dahn’s Industrial Research Chair in
> > Materials
> > for Advanced Batteries. The agreement, long-standing since 1996, is set
to
> > end in June 2016.
> >
> > “I’m so thankful for 3M Canada and NSERC’s support over the years. We’ve
> > had
> > many successes together that have created products for 3M, which are key
> > milestones in my career and in my students’ careers,” says Dahn. He
> > references the development of the nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) positive
> > electrode material—now used in the vast majority of electric vehicles
and
> > power tools around the world—as the most notable success of the
> > partnership.
> >
> > Sustainable power
> > The new collaboration, a first between the leading American electric
> > vehicle
> > company and a Canadian university, will bring together the teams of Dahn

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What if 2011 LEAFs were Retrofitted to 2016 Range?

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

I wish we could have all interface details so third parties could offer
battery upgrades to old Leafs and other OEM cars. Now we just have to hack
through vaquely documented protocols and sink more R&D to it. Eventually
the packs will be available anyway. I know dozen reason for OEM not to
supports us. I'm just thinking out loud here :) -Jukka
3.6.2015 17.54 "Sean Korb via EV"  kirjoitti:

> I've seen bulky range extenders offered for Leafs by aftermarket vendors.
> This is not a Leaf range extending kit from Nissan.  What would a Nissan
> kit look like?  Just a battery replacement?  Is there a high cost for R&D
> and manufacturing of this kit?
>
> I'm not sure I see a solution in the article.  It's the beginning of an
> idea... but I think it will ultimately be cheaper for Nissan to pay off the
> customer and walk away.  Then the aftermarket can pick up where Nissan left
> off and $5k is almost half of a 20kw additional trunk pack.  They don't
> have the same guarantee and it doesn't add value to the car so it is
> difficult to get a bank loan against the asset... but it is a solution that
> Nissan does not have to add to their portfolio.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.torquenews.com/3618/nissan-leaf-crisis-residual-value-avert-fix-problem
> > Nissan Can Avert LEAF Pending Crisis If It Makes This Single Change
> > By Douglas Stansfield  2015-05-28
> >
> > [image
> >
> >
> http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-1/douglas_nissan_leaf_0.jpg
> > Nissan LEAF
> > ]
> >
> > Nissan’s recent offer to existing LEAF lease holders of $5000 to reduce
> > their residual value has presented an interesting dilemma for the
> > automaker.
> >
> > The secondary electric car market isn’t holding its value as originally
> > anticipated, so Nissan’s answer was to help reduce the LEAF's residual
> > value
> > and move the cars from lease to own. This thereby shifts the steeper than
> > normal depreciation rate from Nissan to the now LEAF owners. The question
> > is
> > will this solidify the secondary EV market?
> >
> > As an arm chair economist, I firmly believe that value is held in the
> > prices
> > one pays for the goods they purchase. At this point, the value of a
> Nissan
> > LEAF is weighed by the current market availability and the anticipated
> > future availability. As with the law of diffusion of innovation, EV sales
> > are in the early adopter phase of the product life cycle. Consumers that
> > are
> > the early adopters most likely anticipated the battery improvements that
> > have been evolving so opted to lease rather than buy their first Nissan
> > Leafs. This leaves them open to the next generation EV which would be
> > available in the future. As anticipated, that philosophy will be holding
> > true and many Nissan LEAF leases will just give back their cars at the
> end
> > of the lease and buy or lease a new EV. This is mostly because EVs with
> 200
> > mile range are coming.
> >
> > So what is Nissan to do?
> > Can it develop a strategy to uphold the value of the secondary market
> > Nissan
> > Leafs? I believe it can. The published rate for a replacement Nissan LEAF
> > battery pack is $5499 as previously published.
> >
> > What if Nissan Retrofits 2011 LEAFs to 2016 Range?
> > Well, what if Nissan developed a kit, that would be able to be installed
> at
> > the local dealers to retrofit 2011 to 2016 Nissan LEAFs with an add on
> > battery that would push the Nissan LEAF cars on the road today up to the
> > 200
> > miles range of the next version Leaf. Instead of a $5000 give back just
> on
> > residual value, give back $5000 worth of batteries and keep the value of
> > the
> > overall used car higher?
> >
> > There are many benefits to this.
> > It would help solidify the used EV car market.
> > It would help keep existing leases in the Nissan Family.
> > It would drive future brand growth by word of mouth.
> > It would increase publicity for the brand.
> > [© torquenews.com]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For EVLN posts use:
> > http://evdl.org/evln/
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3086531/Hate-parking-car-Nissan-vehicles-automatically-2020-says-CEO.html
> > Nissan cars will be autonomous-drive ready by 2020
> >
> > http://gas2.org/2015/05/22/zero-motorcycles-announces-price-cut/
> > $8.5k Zero e-Motorcycles Announces Price Cut
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.mercurynews.com/los-gatos/ci_28158057/los-gatos-shorts-click-it-or-ticket-campaign
> > Los Gatos shorts: 'Click It or Ticket' campaign is now underway
> > +
> > EVLN: Polaris Will Leave HarleyD's E-mcycle In The Dust> Snooze-U-Lose
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-What-if-2011-LEAFs-were-Retrofitted-to-2016-Range-tp4675979.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> > __

Re: [EVDL] pouch cells

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Sounds like LTO cell to me. Not standard LMP or LCO. Maybe some LiFePO4
variant. That spec tells it cycles well which is nice for such use. EV is
not one of those applications. Nothing new under the sun I'd say. -Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-05-12 5:56 GMT+03:00 Bill Dube via EV :

> Dial it back just a bit. No need to be abusive.
>
> On 5/11/2015 7:59 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
>> You provided nothing that would help us answer your question.  Not even
>> the
>> name of the reseller or manufacturer. What kind of inquiry is that?  If
>> you
>> won't tell us, or show us, then there can be no real answer.
>>
>> "4000 cycles at %90 dod"
>>
>> This is a mostly meaningless specification. Taking lithium cells to 90%
>> DOD
>> does absolutely nothing bad to them.  What might mess them up regarding
>> DOD
>> is if they were not consistent in their capacity and construction - so
>> that
>> they would not age well together for the life of the pack.
>>
>> What you want to know with certainty, is the voltage at 100% SOC (or
>> somewhat lower for a factor of safety).  And then the temperature beyond
>> which the cells should not go when at a high SOC.
>>
>> You need to know the recommended high cutoff voltage that is sufficient to
>> protect the cells regardless of temperature.
>>
>> You need to be sure your charger never pushes the cells beyond the max
>> SOC%.  If you do push voltage and SOC% higher you need to know the
>> activation temperature of the system (positive electrode
>> and electrolyte composition) and never let the pack exceed that
>> temperature
>> when the cells at at a high SOC%.
>>
>> What will the life of the cells be?  Unless a thorough study using high
>> precision coulometry has been performed, then you will mostly have no idea
>> the expected life of the cells.  Traditional testing tells you nothing
>> much
>> about the expected life.  The old methods take far too long to give
>> results
>> and no one ever runs them long enough to get an estimate that is very
>> certain.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:00 PM, ken via EV  wrote:
>>
>>I saw some pouch cells that claim 4000 cycles at %90 dod.
>>>
>>> any one tested theses.
>>>
>>> How are they for $ vs. power density.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Why should automated cars drive as fast as the ones we drive? Perhaps we
should think different over this whole transition to driverless future.

I think the biggest thing in this is you can do all other things inside the
vehicle while in transit. Eat, drink, SMS, update FB, Tweet, etc. All the
same things people do for the 1st hour when they arrive to their workplace
anyway.

Car could be 15 ton slow vehicle with one feet thick steel around it. Super
safe for the passengers. Automated vehicles take the slow lane while
traditional vehicles participate to the fast 'n' furious road rage to which
they are addicted to.

The technology to observe surroundings and act on the feedback is getting
there. It'll take still some time but not many years anymore.

This is why I believe strongly the public transport will be converted to
automated system. The incentive is also on the operation cost as more than
60% of the bus line operation cost is the driver. At least here in Northern
Europe. When the bus is electric the operation cost of the line will drop.
But not the driver salary. It may well be the driver is 90% of the
operation expenses then. Same thing will happen to all the semi trucks.
More load, less expenses but not just that fast.

Back in 2002 Li-ion batteries were too expensive, dangerous and not even an
alternative for SLA. Remember how we had all kind of hassle here in EVDL
about them? Things change.

-Jukka


http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-04-09 8:07 GMT+03:00 Lawrence Winiarski via EV :

>
>  I can't wait to share the road with self driving cars like this one...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DtdeOg3piY
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Bill wrote: "I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same
basket."

And that is the right answer.

Ask your cell manufacturer for the specifications. Joggling with the
electrolyte mixtures is what people do so you really cannot say anything
generic. For sure it's better for the cell to have it in the optimal
temperature range which usually is about 25C +/-5C.

It's not that big deal to give the battery box a light layer of insulation.
Ventilation and heating help more and they are not too hard to make either.

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-02-24 7:50 GMT+02:00 Bill Dube via EV :

> Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide?
> I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide
> cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is
> likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well.
>
> I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge
> LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about
> going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries <
> http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm> show in their specifications charge
> down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to
> -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic
> when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I
> just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.)  I think that cold weather
> effect may be restricted to lithium-ion "metal oxide" cells.
>
>  That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky
> cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a
> few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage
> sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it.
>
> I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The
> LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells,
> but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of
> metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> On 2/23/2015 5:19 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
>> Discharging pulls lithium off of the cathode side SEI (solid electrolyte
>> interface) if it has been plated there, but according to the
>> electrochemists other bad stuff goes on so the capacity lost to plating
>> the
>> cathode is not reversible even if the plating itself is reversible.
>>
>> I wish I understood this better, but the science of it may be uncertain
>> beyond knowing that it is bad.
>>
>> So when you charge, the ions move towards the cathode, and when it is cold
>> the motion into the cathode is too slow and the lithium piles up on the
>> SEI
>> as a metallic lithium - it is plated.
>>
>> When you discharge the metallic lithium diffuses into the electrolyte and
>> the motion of ions is towards the anode.
>>
>> I am not aware that discharging is a problem, I have seen nothing in the
>> literature about it;  and high currents will generate heat right where the
>> action is.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Rick Beebe via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  That was one of my big concerns when I built my truck so I tried to fix
>>> it
>>> from the beginning. I put 1" of foam insulation in all my battery boxes.
>>> I
>>> installed battery warmers under the batteries. I used 35 watt Farnum
>>> heaters I got from KTA-EV. And I built a controller to turn the heaters
>>> on
>>> below 15C and to disable charging below 3C. All of that runs only when
>>> the
>>> truck is plugged in.
>>>
>>> I've been leaving the truck plugged in at home and it's keeping the
>>> batteries at 15C (60F) despite temps to -20C. CALB allows the cells to be
>>> discharged at a much lower temperature than charging so I'm less worried
>>> about the cells cooling off with the truck unplugged at work. That said,
>>> the insulation really helps slow down that process. I've found that on a
>>> 20F day the cells have dropped to about 45F after 8 hours at work. The
>>> other advantage to the cells being warmer, of course, is much better
>>> performance.
>>>
>>> My understanding is that temperature of the anode is the critical piece.
>>> I
>>> don't know if your BMS is measuring that or simply the air above the
>>> cell.
>>>
>>> --Rick
>>>
>>> On 02/20/2015 03:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV wrote:
>>>
>>>  Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in
 the
 Eastern US.

 My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when
 it's
 cold like this.  It's annoying.

 I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C,
 which
 they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold
 (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C).

 But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good
 enough.  

Re: [EVDL] 4 to 12 Cell Lithium BMS

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

FEVT ltd used latching contactors from Albright.

http://www.albrightinternational.com/files/downloads/catalogues/SW80%20ETC%20TELECOM%20LEAFLET.pdf

You need to add a latching circuit when operating with low level BMS
systems. When BMS keeps the contactor ON/pulled there is very little energy
consumed. A simple trigger which is powered by few supercaps creates OFF
burst when the signal from BMS is lost. Contactor controller can be
programmed to sniff standard I/O's.

We did the previously mentioned to cancel the current drawn from several
contactors in a battery system. We used separate unit with PIC18F2480 SW/HW
watchdogs. The distributed design allowed cross supervision over several
CPUs with some redundancy. This topology allowed us to make systems which
worked 10 years with next to none service (some SW updates were made to add
redundancy). Winston's (aka TS) LFP-350AHA cells worked just as well that
10 years.

By default there is build-in hand shake protocol over CAN bus between the
main CPU and contactor controller. So if the CPU's SW (called Core SW) for
some reason loses it's mind next controller CPU takes over the system
control and initiates the preprogrammed CPU reboot sequence. Depending on
the setup user does no even know there was a reboot done. So adding this to
low level BMS you can achieve more stable and robust system.

One neat feature was a timer code which basically allowed CORE to determine
how many seconds the system may be on what ever is happening. Temperatures
or voltages are not going haywire in few minutes. Say some of the
electronics go broken. A divine touch or what ever is the reason. Contactor
controller allows to operate the system over the set timer according the
parameters. Naturally this controller may sniff all components on the CAN
bus to determine if the timer was set right.

I could make a patch of these contactor controllers if needed. I sold the
company away in 2010 but I still know the technology inside out.  Company
wen't belly up over a year ago so I dare to use the system design now (?)

I must say I'm stunned how long term technology investors did not know
Moore's law. :) There was a lot of critics how expensive touch screens and
multiple CPUs are and they will never be mainstream in vehicles. User
interface development was scrapped because: "no one will use touch screens
in cars. They distract the driver and are going to be forbidden by law".  :D

-Jukka


http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2014-09-17 7:26 GMT+03:00 Adrian DeLeon via EV :

> OK, it sounds like Steve is having a "phantom" current issue - the phantom
> being a contactor that is always on.
>
> Are these packs plugged into the AC mains while sitting unused? I had a
> similar issue with the 12V auxiliary battery in my EV. After about 4 days,
> the 12V battery would go dead from the small but constant currents drawn by
> the motor controller and mini-BMS board. I solved the problem with one of
> these:
>
> http://batterytender.com/products/motorcycle/waterproof-800-usa-western-
> hemisphere.html
>
> It's an 800mA trickle charger used to keep the batteries in ATVs and
> snowmobiles from going dead while in storage. It's a smart charger,
> weatherproof, isolated, and runs from 120/240 VAC. It came with both
> alligator clips and a set of ring terminals. Mine is wired to the charging
> plug of my EV, so as long as I'm plugged in, my 12V battery stays fully
> charged.
>
> After retiring one of my EVs, I put the trickle charger to use on a 7AHr
> gel battery that runs an automatic chicken coop door. The battery stays
> charged and the door will still operate for days during a power outage.
>
> If keeping your packs connected to AC power while in storage isn't
> possible AND this is a "run" contactor, you could wire the contactor coil
> through a connector adjacent to the main pack connector. When connecting a
> pack there would be the big connector (main pack) and the small connector
> (a small shorting plug that would activate the contactor coil).
>
> If this is a charging contactor, find a way to power it via AC mains. That
> way when the pack gets disconnected from the mains, the contactor will turn
> off at the same time.
>
> -Adrian
>
>
> On 09/16/2014 07:24 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:
>
>> I have a Mini BMS system also.  I suspect the contractor might be for
>> charging circuitry.  I have the same issues with an SSR in my system.
>>
>> The Mini BMS is set up to terminate charging if necessary when a cell is
>> over voltage and the ignition system is off.  It does this by turning off
>> the SSR or contactor on the AC line to the charger when it detects a cell
>> alert with the ignition off.
>>
>> When you turn on the ignition system, it re-arms the contactor back to
>> on, to prepare for the next charge cycle.  The problem is that the
>> contactor stays on all the time the vehicle is parked.  On my car, it takes
>> about 2 weeks to drain the auxiliary battery.
>>
>> I solve this by

Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

For Winston type cells I recommend to keep them dry and clean and as they
are from the factory. Do not use any magic creams to keep the moist out
from the poles. One can sand and polish the poles if one wishes but do it
right to keep the contact surface good and tight. Battery pack with proper
enclosure keeps the poles in perfect condition and they stay so for 10
years (proven). Tightness of the bolts should be checked every few years at
least. -Jukka


http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about


2014-07-31 9:48 GMT+03:00 Cor van de Water via EV :

> Michael,
> Your last sentence (about asperities) appears to be at odds with our
> earlier statement of preferring a flat machined surface. Can you
> elaborate?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
> via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 6:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium battery setpoints...
>
> In air, aluminum oxide forms nearly instantly.  You have never seen pure
> aluminum, because it does not exist where a human can stay alive to view
> it.
>
> Therefore, sanding is a useless activity, if the goal is to remove
> aluminum
> oxide.  You can do it, but you can't stop it from reforming.  I suppose
> it
> is possible the layer is reduced in thickness, but I am not buying that
> that matters.
>
> I don't like the idea of sanding terminals.  You want then to have the
> flat
> machined surface they have leaving the factory o get a good bolted joint
> with as much contact area as possible.  If the terminals are clean and
> un-corroded I would leave them alone.
>
> I suppose one might prove whether the resistance is changed for the
> better
> if you have a really good instrument to check it.  But this will not be
> your garden variety multi-meter.
>
> The magic creme noalox, is alleged to pierce the ALO2 crust with zinc
> particles improving contact conductance and maintaining it for some time
> to
> come.  I would like to see some sort of evidence of this that is not
> anecdotal.  But it might be true.
>
> As discussed here ad nauseum, I believe in clean joints that are torqued
> properly with good quality flat washers.  I think a conductive grease
> that
> excludes moisture may be a good idea.  I am less fond of dielectric
> (high
> resistance) greases, but they may not hinder conduction much, as the
> current passes predominantly through crushed asperities - metal to metal
> contact.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 8:57 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> > On 30 Jul 2014 at 17:05, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Silicone dioxide is glass, and aluminum oxide is clay, which when
> > > heated becomes ceramic, for example...
> >
> > Maybe it's splitting hairs, but (even though I took freshman chem a
> LONG
> > time ago) I don't know that I'd say "aluminum oxide is clay."
> >
> > If I'm not mistaken, potter's clay contains aluminum compounds
> (silicates).
> > I think you can chemically extract Al2O3 from it.  Maybe you could say
> that
> > potter's clay CONTAINS aluminum oxide, but aluminum oxide isn't clay
> per
> > se.
> >
> > I would further disagree with "Silicone dioxide is glass," for two
> reasons.
> >
> > First, as with clay, glass does CONTAIN silicon dioxide.  However, it
> also
> > contains other compounds, such as sodium carbonate and lime.
> >
> > And being a language stickler, I should also point out that the words
> > "silicon" and "silicone" are not interchangeable.  Silicone CONTAINS
> > silicon, but silicone is not an element, nor does it occur in nature.
> It's
> > a synthetic (man-made) chemical compound.  There is no such critter as
> > "silicone dioxide."
> >
> > To bring this back on topic, aluminum is not the best conductor, and
> > aluminum oxide is a pretty poor one.  Unfortunately making al requires
> a
> > lot
> > of energy to reduce the bauxite, and this high embedded energy means
> that
> > Al
> > is always in a big hurry to turn itself into aluminum oxide.
> >
> > To keep this from happening, you have to keep air away from it.  In
> > practice, you apply your NoAlOx or other grease within moments after
> you
> > abrade aluminum terminals (and aluminum wire, if you're using it).  In
> fact
> > the instructions with at least one of those glops tells you to slather
> it
> > on
> > the (aluminum) wire, then wirebrush the wire with the goop already on
> it.
> >
> > As a side note, aluminum's high embedded energy and eagerness to
> oxidize
> > also makes it potentially (pun not intended) useful to power EVs.  In
> the
> > past, EV projects have tried out aluminum-air batteries.  (Unique
> Mobility
> > teamed up with AlCan for one of them in the 1980s.)
> >
> > There are big problems with al-air, th

Re: [EVDL] Tesla might Supercharge EVs to regain 400mi in 15min for 7 credits

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

The range is currently the issue which requires more quick charging
stations. But this issue is going away now. More range is going to be on
every BEV as the production methods improve for li-ion. Also packaging is
getting whole lot better from current cells and packs (talking about active
component packaging).

As Tesla paves the way and soon shows +100kWh packs we will learn more
about our social behaviour. +150kWh pack is already something in a Model S
-type car which opens the Pandora's box completely.

My guess is people will charge with 1-3kW at home with solar (or similar
zero CO2) but will be able to dump from the home pack if required (+20kW).
On a road trip people stop by for quick charge as they stop for a rest.
100kWh takes already quite some time to transform to movement.

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about


2014-07-27 15:44 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :

> On Jul 27, 2014, at 12:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > % ? Setting the bar higher than what fcvs can do ? %
> >
> > [ref
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-CEO-Sez-A-More-Expensive-500mi-EV-could-be-quite-soon-tp4670504.html
> > EVLN: Tesla CEO Sez A More Expensive 500mi EV 'could be quite soon'
> > ]
> >
> > I thought why would Tesla make a 500 mi EV? Tesla is smart enough to
> ignore
> > the ignorant media's insanity for more and more range. I thought , there
> has
> > to be a business motivation for even mentioning it.
>
> I don't think that it's the "ignorant media's insanity for more and more
> range."  More like *the buyer's* demand for more range and faster charging
> times, equivalent to an ICE.
>
> Range is one of the barriers to integrating EVs of all types into the
> fleet. Even on this list, it's an issue. This was a similar issue for
> FCEVs. Why do you think tank pressures increased? It certainly wasn't
> cheaper. Or requirements for fueling times to get station co- funding?
>  Range and fueling time are two things that make the consumer think they
> are getting something "less" when purchasing an EV of any type. Musk's
> focus is laser-like here.
>
>
> >
> > A 500mi pack recharged at level-3 (L3) would reach its 80% point the
> fastest
> > before the charging current would need to be reduced/tapered. So, 80% of
> > 500mi is 400mi.
> >
> > A quick 400mi recharge would let a Tesla EV grab the 7 CARB credits that
> the
> > Automakers and Big-Oil manipulated CARB to have for their fcvs.
>
> Credits is certainly part of it - this has made them money in the past.
>
> (FYI, there was no "manipulation" in setting the CARB numbers. And "Big
> Oil" has little interest in FCEVs - have a look at the list of companies
> that just received CEC funding for stations. Total number of "Big Oil"
> companies that even applied  zero)
>
> But this seems mostly about customer experience and buyer demand.
>
>
> >
> >
> >  A 300+ mile recharge in 15 minutes seems a guarantee to
> continue
> > that same ol' energy-wasting-addiction in the U.S.> there definitely
> isn't
> > any planet-saving going-on if everyone still has the ability to burn up
> huge
> > amounts of energy.
> > 
>
> You may be right, but more people will buy them with more range. How much
> range do you think is the "right" amount?
>
> >
> >
> > Increasing the kW capacity of a pack will increase its recharge time if
> the
> > charging rate stays the same. Since the recharge time has to be halved,
> and
> > the pack capacity doubled, it seems the electrical power needed to
> recharge
> > it will be four fold (4x as much).
> >
> > The amount of power required to recharge a 500mi EV to 80% (400mi
> regained)
> > in 15min is available at a Tesla Superstation already, if the 500mi EV
> used
> > several couplers at one time.
> >
> >
> > Below are a couple of pages from a year ago discussing a charging a
> Tesla in
> > 5 minutes.
> >
> >
> > [dated 2013]
> >
> http://insideevs.com/tesla-says-sub-10-minute-supercharging-is-possible-we-doubt-it/
> > Tesla Says Sub 10-Minute Supercharging is Possible
> > Jul 19, 2013  by Eric Loveday
> >
> > Can a Tesla Model S be charged in 10 minutes?
> > [image] Tesla’s Proposed by 2015 Supercharger Sites
> >
> > How about in 5 minutes?
> >
> > Tesla’s chief technology officer, JB Straubel,seems to think so, but
> don’t
> > count on it being a possibility anytime soon.
> >
> > In an exclusive Supercharger-related interview with MIT Technology
> Review,
> > Straubel stated:
> >
> >“It’s not going to happen in a year from now. It’s going to be hard.
> But
> > I think we can get down to five to 10 minutes.”
> >
> > Why then would one need battery swapping?  You probably wouldn’t if a 5
> to
> > 10-minute charge was possible.
> >
> > But it’s not.  Maybe it is possible, but feasible?
> >
> > The current Supercharges out there deliver up to 120 kW.  If Tesla scaled
> > that up to charge a Model S in 10 minutes, then we’d be looking at
> something
> > like 720 kW.  The heat ge

Re: [EVDL] Speaking of General Jack Ripper (and thereby 'How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Bomb')

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Maybe they just filled up their tanks and are feeling ill-equipped...
21.5.2014 17.51 kirjoitti "Robert Salem via EV" :

> Where do you live ??
>
>
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Geoff Pullinger via EV
> wrote:
>
> > Has there been some news story I've missed in the last few weeks?
>  Perhaps
> > something about how EV's are destroying the purity of our bodily fluids?
>  I
> > only ask this because during the last few weeks I've had three instances
> > where other motorists have harassed me while I was driving my EV.  One
> guy
> > in a parking lot drove his pickup straight at me while I was getting into
> > my car and then turned away missing me by about a foot.  The other two
> > incidents involved people driving on my bumper even though I was going
> five
> > mph over the limit. This has never happened to me before.  My car has EV
> > plates and a small sign on the back that says 'electric'.
> >
> > --
> > Geoff Pullinger
> > gpullin...@gmail.com
> > http://www.evalbum.com/2445
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