Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Hi, My motorcycle has 40AH GBS cells of which I use only 2 1/2 C and the cells are still doing great 3 1/2 years later. To give us some terms of reference, what does your M/C pull in amps at a steady 50mph and 70mph (if you go that fast!) and on strong acceleration? And how many miles does 3.5 years equate to, please? Regards, MW. On 30 Sep 2014, at 20:06, Byron James via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Steve Clunn wrote Didn't know you where testing so many cells , I just put 66 60 ah GBS's in a BMW they seem to be doing good. time will tell, they are dishing out 5 c without the cell voltage dropping below 3v . Yikes - the GBS specs call out max continuous discharge 3C. I would be careful pulling 5C. A Local GBS distributor destroyed, within a month, GBS cells charging and discharging GBS cells at 3C. I don't have their test procedure but it made me think twice about pulling 3C from GBS cells. My motorcycle has 40AH GBS cells of which I use only 2 1/2 C and the cells are still doing great 3 1/2 years later. On Sep 30, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Steve Clunn via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know you where testing so many cells , I just put 66 60 ah GBS 's in a BMW they seem to be doing good. time will tell, they are dishing out 5 c without the cell voltage dropping below 3v . ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Marcus Reddish via EV wrote: Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to remember a picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early cells like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I have not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages ago. abut 10 years back we sold some White high power that looks like TS which seemed low quality but where abused by 2 of the 3 customers getting them The company did warranty them replacing about 1/4 by the time the warranty ran out . The larger the packs and the less amps used ( lower c pull) the better they did. Willie2 via EV wrote: The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that. I know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells. Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs. Willie has taken the good care of his pack . The best normal real world testing I've seen. Lee wrote I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed. I'm finding that as a given not all cells will live out there expected life . Even Willie has had a number of cells go bad (less than 10 ) , He bought extra's so we have been replacing them with the same batch over the last 9 years ( Has it really been that long?.) At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting Nissan's QC rejects! Didn't know you where testing so many cells , I just put 66 60 ah GBS 's in a BMW they seem to be doing good. time will tell, they are dishing out 5 c without the cell voltage dropping below 3v . recent ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good. From: EVDL Administrator I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They haveon *consistently* failed to meet specs. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2008/05/charge-keep Love to see a picture of lee's set up . I've been lucky enough to get to drive William's Hyandia car from time to time .we recently did a capacity test while I was there working on his golf carts and was able to pull out 220 amp hours without the BMS alarming , then left the key on for several days, which then pulled the full rated 260ah out over the next few days . There were a few cells who's voltage had fallen down between 2.65 and 3 volts that said most where over 3 volts . Willie's strategy of having a large pack , about 40 kilowatt hours I believe has helped give him years of service . He has over 44,000 miles on the cars 48 cells. he also does a slow charge most of the time and equalizers with a 1 amp charger letting the mini BMS system bring all up to 3.6v. He may have about 400 cycles on them . Steve Clunn Merging the best of the past with the best of the future. www.Greenshedconversions.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Steve Clunn wrote Didn't know you where testing so many cells , I just put 66 60 ah GBS's in a BMW they seem to be doing good. time will tell, they are dishing out 5 c without the cell voltage dropping below 3v . Yikes - the GBS specs call out max continuous discharge 3C. I would be careful pulling 5C. A Local GBS distributor destroyed, within a month, GBS cells charging and discharging GBS cells at 3C. I don't have their test procedure but it made me think twice about pulling 3C from GBS cells. My motorcycle has 40AH GBS cells of which I use only 2 1/2 C and the cells are still doing great 3 1/2 years later. On Sep 30, 2014, at 5:40 AM, Steve Clunn via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know you where testing so many cells , I just put 66 60 ah GBS 's in a BMW they seem to be doing good. time will tell, they are dishing out 5 c without the cell voltage dropping below 3v . ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Byron James via EV wrote: Yikes - the GBS specs call out max continuous discharge 3C. I would be careful pulling 5C. A Local GBS distributor destroyed, within a month, GBS cells charging and discharging GBS cells at 3C... I tested 16 GMS-LFMP100AH cells. I found two bad ones as delivered (significantly higher internal resistance and low capacity). The others performed reasonably well (85-105ah capacity, and about a 2:1 range in internal resistance). One thing I didn't like: These GBS cells used a stack of three thin copper sheet metal strips to interconnect the cells. Four small 5mm steel screws at each end screwed into the aluminum terminal to hold them. It was very difficult to make a good, consistently low resistance connection with this setup. I have my doubts that these connections will *stay* good over time. -- Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Lee Hart via EV wrote: I tested 16 GMS-LFMP100AH cells... Correction; should be GBS-LFMP100AH cells. -- Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
I have 16 20Ah GBS cells and all of them off gas what smells like the electrolyte solution. Put them in an enclosed box for a few days and it is really obvious! I have not detected this with my TS or CALB cells. I'm concerned that either the plastic, vent seals, and/or the terminal seals are leaking. Also, the GBS cells appear to be softer than the TS or GBS cells tho I don't have raw data to back that up. On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Byron James via EV wrote: Yikes - the GBS specs call out max continuous discharge 3C. I would be careful pulling 5C. A Local GBS distributor destroyed, within a month, GBS cells charging and discharging GBS cells at 3C... I tested 16 GMS-LFMP100AH cells. I found two bad ones as delivered (significantly higher internal resistance and low capacity). The others performed reasonably well (85-105ah capacity, and about a 2:1 range in internal resistance). One thing I didn't like: These GBS cells used a stack of three thin copper sheet metal strips to interconnect the cells. Four small 5mm steel screws at each end screwed into the aluminum terminal to hold them. It was very difficult to make a good, consistently low resistance connection with this setup. I have my doubts that these connections will *stay* good over time. -- Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Hi Lee, Just wanted to check if it was 3rd-hand reports or not. If you say they were bad cells, they were bad cells. Are there any testing statistics on the more modern Chinese cells (Yellow Thundersky, Blue CALB, etc)? Seems like people report a bad cell here or there but not the categorical failure to meet specs. One issue I have with testing hand-me-down or freebie cells is the cell may have been damaged by any number of mistakes in the charging or discharging regime. To get proper statistics, a person would have to buy a car's worth of batteries and then test each one. I am sure that some have done this. Any reports of what was found? I am leery of reports of bad cells by the average EV'er since there is a myriad of ways the cells can get screwed up with the many different balancing and charging scenarios. Cheers, Marcus On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Marcus Reddish via EV wrote: Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to remember a picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early cells like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I have not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages ago. Willie2 via EV wrote: The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that. I know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells. Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs. My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 2003. They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 100ah models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked, but didn't meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked, but the main problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal resistance. Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they overheated even with a 25 amp load. Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their failures; but I certainly didn't. I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have *consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity and internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between cells, and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most recent ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good. I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed. At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting Nissan's QC rejects! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do these great deeds, worth repeating. -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Marcus Reddish -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140924/3302c969/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Mathew, Check out these Colorado companies: http://evolveelectrics.com/ http://boulderhc.com/services/ Evolve can provide the parts and Boulder Hybrids can assembly the battery pack with BMS even though its not listed as a standard service. Best, Byron On Sep 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Matthew Parkhouse via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I remember the Thundersky problem.. This is exactly why I am asking the EVDlist for real life experiences bringing a small order (48 volt and 120 battery pack that came from China). Sounds a bit scarey, has this happened to any of us? Two outfits have said they will ship to my favourite port. What happens then? I assume I then hire an agent of some sort to do the paper work and either hand over the batteries or help organise trucking to the center of the US (Colorado). Just in case, are there any folks on this List in the business who could put together the 48 volt pack and the 120 volt pack to my specs (dimensions), with whatever BMS is needed? I would prefer to keep this in country than involving the whole world! Many thanks Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/181be272/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
I did not buy my batteries from evolveelectrics but I did get my bms and charger. I give them two thumbs up. Buddy Mills Sent from a little keyboard with fat finger. Sorry for any typos. Original message From: Byron James via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Date:09/23/2014 8:07 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China Mathew, Check out these Colorado companies: http://evolveelectrics.com/ http://boulderhc.com/services/ Evolve can provide the parts and Boulder Hybrids can assembly the battery pack with BMS even though its not listed as a standard service. Best, Byron On Sep 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Matthew Parkhouse via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I remember the Thundersky problem.. This is exactly why I am asking the EVDlist for real life experiences bringing a small order (48 volt and 120 battery pack that came from China). Sounds a bit scarey, has this happened to any of us? Two outfits have said they will ship to my favourite port. What happens then? I assume I then hire an agent of some sort to do the paper work and either hand over the batteries or help organise trucking to the center of the US (Colorado). Just in case, are there any folks on this List in the business who could put together the 48 volt pack and the 120 volt pack to my specs (dimensions), with whatever BMS is needed? I would prefer to keep this in country than involving the whole world! Many thanks Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/181be272/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/28ec162e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
On Sep 23, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Byron James via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Mathew, Check out these Colorado companies: http://evolveelectrics.com/ http://boulderhc.com/services/ Also K2 Energy. We’ve gotten packs from them. http://www.k2battery.com/battery-packs.html -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/626556e1/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
I'll add my 2 cents. I remember the endless email threads about the fouled Thundersky purchase, years back. I think that showed how difficult it can be to import something from another country where you have little protection or recourse if something goes wrong. Particularly with China where there is a very wide range of ethics. My personal experience is buying a bike light from a China importer in the US. Even though the importer was in the US, this person was unscrupulous and would not honor his warranty. I ended up trashing a moderately expensive light after a couple months. I think with EV batteries and other components it's a lot safer since a US distributor would quickly go out of business if he didn't honor his warranties and ship quality product in a timely manner. I won't even buy tea directly from China. The package might say organic but does it have melamine in it? There are some stellar farming cooperatives in China but I have no idea if the label on the package is genuine or not. Again, it's a matter of having someone local who has a reputation on the line and is bound by domestic laws and enforcement. I'm willing to pay a bit more so that I can send a defective unit back to the supplier to get swapped out rather than have to send something all the way to China and not even, perhaps, get a replacement or a response. Who are you going to call if you wire them money and get nothing in return? As they say, caveat emptor. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Byron James byronja...@earthlink.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 23-Sep-14 7:42:07 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China On Sep 23, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Byron James via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Mathew, Check out these Colorado companies: http://evolveelectrics.com/ http://boulderhc.com/services/ Also K2 Energy. We’ve gotten packs from them. http://www.k2battery.com/battery-packs.html -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/626556e1/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Marcus Reddish via EV wrote: Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to remember a picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early cells like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I have not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages ago. Willie2 via EV wrote: The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that. I know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells. Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs. My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 2003. They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 100ah models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked, but didn't meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked, but the main problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal resistance. Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they overheated even with a 25 amp load. Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their failures; but I certainly didn't. I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have *consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity and internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between cells, and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most recent ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good. I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed. At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting Nissan's QC rejects! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do these great deeds, worth repeating. -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Lee, Are those A123 still on the market? I haven't kept up on the batteries/companies. Are the test results available? Can you send me a CSV or similar? -Chris Mr23 at Comcast dot net On September 23, 2014 6:09:39 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Marcus Reddish via EV wrote: Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to remember a picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early cells like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I have not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages ago. Willie2 via EV wrote: The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that. I know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells. Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs. My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 2003. They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 100ah models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked, but didn't meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked, but the main problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal resistance. Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they overheated even with a 25 amp load. Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their failures; but I certainly didn't. I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have *consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity and internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between cells, and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most recent ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good. I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed. At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting Nissan's QC rejects! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do these great deeds, worth repeating. -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140923/d65dfa0c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Have you ever tested Enerdel batteries? Lee Hart wrote: My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 2003. They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 100ah models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked, but didn't meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked, but the main problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal resistance. Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they overheated even with a 25 amp load. Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their failures; but I certainly didn't. I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have *consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity and internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between cells, and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most recent ones were GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good. I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed. At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting Nissan's QC rejects! -- If you would not be forgotten When your body's dead and rotten Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do these great deeds, worth repeating. -- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
Hi Matthew, I have purchased direct from CALB in China which went very well but slightly scary as it is payment up front. You need to find an importer to ship inland from the docks or pick the consignment up yourself. Have you tried looking at prices from European suppliers? I have purchased successfully from ev-power.eu and there is another in Holland called newelectric at www.newelectric.nl Newelectric are a European stockist for Jack Rickard's EVTV store but I have no idea how much they actually have in Holland. I have though purchased successfully from the US EVTV store. A quick Google may find others. Russ On Mon, 22/9/14, Matthew Parkhouse via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Monday, 22 September, 2014, 11:41 Hello All Has anyone had any experience with ordering lithium battery packs from China? If so, how is the transaction at our port cities. Apparently, these companies only ship to our ports. Thanks! Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ aol.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
RN =... • Niger (international vehicle registration).[from French République du Niger .] • (chiefly in North America) Registered Nurse. • (in the UK) Royal Navy. ? On 22 Sep 2014, at 11:41, Matthew Parkhouse via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hello All Has anyone had any experience with ordering lithium battery packs from China? If so, how is the transaction at our port cities. Apparently, these companies only ship to our ports. Thanks! Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ aol.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140922/676a172b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
On 09/22/2014 05:41 AM, Matthew Parkhouse via EV wrote: Hello All Has anyone had any experience with ordering lithium battery packs from China? If so, how is the transaction at our port cities. Apparently, these companies only ship to our ports. I bought a batch of ThunderSkys from Evergreen in Hong Kong about 2008. Wired about $30k to them. That was a bit uncomfortable. But the deal went smoothly. I have not heard of anyone being burned importing cells. I drove to Houston to pick them up from an importing agent. The duty plus fees were about $1k additional. The importing agent was willing to forward them by common carrier but I am only a few hours from Houston. What was the name of the company that gave some customers some grief a while back? EV Components? I bought some cells from them without incident but I believe some other customers had some trouble. From the information I have seen, I have to conclude importing is safer but more tedious. A California company (Balaqon? Something like that) is now selling ThunderSkys domestically. I've also bought some cells from http://evsource.com/ in Utah with good results. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
I remember the Thundersky problem.. This is exactly why I am asking the EVDlist for real life experiences bringing a small order (48 volt and 120 battery pack that came from China). Sounds a bit scarey, has this happened to any of us? Two outfits have said they will ship to my favourite port. What happens then? I assume I then hire an agent of some sort to do the paper work and either hand over the batteries or help organise trucking to the center of the US (Colorado). Just in case, are there any folks on this List in the business who could put together the 48 volt pack and the 120 volt pack to my specs (dimensions), with whatever BMS is needed? I would prefer to keep this in country than involving the whole world! Many thanks Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ aol.com On 22 Sep 2557 BE, at 09:34, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote: It's been a number of years, but I participated in a group buy from Thundersky. Basically, they shipped us floor sweepings; rejects, old stock, and junk. You need to understand that Chinese businesses are not bound by any of the legal protections and ethics of US firms. Many of them take full advantage of this. They can cheat you, and not worry about being sued. If they decide that you are a one-time customer with no likelihood for repeat business, look out! It will cost more, but if you buy from a domestic distributor, they *are* bound by the law. If they fail to deliver what you ordered, you have the right to return it for replacement or your money back. They need to receive the shipment, inspect it, and fight with the Chinese supplier if any are bad. Most likely the US distributor will have to EAT the bad ones (i.e. accept that only 90% of the cells they receive can actually be sold). Of course, US distributors can also cheat you. They can pretend to test, but in fact do nothing. They can make excuses, stall, or disappear without a trace. But at least the law is on your side; you can sue, or have them criminally prosecuted. There is also the option of physically visiting the firm yourself (or through a proxy) to judge for yourself if they are honest or a fly-by-night outfit. Caveat emptor! -- Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/controllers.htm now includes the GE EV-1 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
I have been a Registered Nurse since 1986, an LPN since my Army medic days. Combined with being a factory trained BMW motorcycle mechanic, I've had a very interesting career path and a GREAT skill set. Got disabled by some botched gall bladder surgery a few years ago (at the hospital I worked at - Penrose Hospital, in Colorado Springs - they then proceeded to fire me because I could no longer do the work!) Matthew Parkhouse, RN hobomatt@ aol.com On 22 Sep 2557 BE, at 05:35, Martin WINLOW m...@winlow.co.uk wrote: On ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China
On 09/22/2014 11:55 AM, Marcus Reddish via EV wrote: Are these the old white Thunder sky cells that failed? Seem to remember a picture of them leaking. Is it possible folks charged those early cells like they were lead and caused (or contributed to) the failures? I have not heard of any bad batch since the white cells, which was ages ago. The situation Lee describes dates to 2000-2003? Something like that. I know nothing of the situation but I believe they were LCP cells. Starting about 2005, LFPs were the preferred cells for conversions. I know of no quality or delivery problems with ThunderSky LFPs. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
