Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 22:06, John Mikes wrote: Bruno and Brent: Who are you to T E L L society what it needs? I am only trying to tell society what I need, and what I think my children, my students, my friends, and all people I care about can need. (BTW: I agree perfectly with your position). I had discussions on other lists in aspects of religion and gun- control and received similar offensive repercussions. No universal machine can tell any other universal machine how to think and what to aim at. I absolutely agree with you. But all universal machine have the right, for that very reason, to criticize and vote against those machines who want to impose their mode of thinking. Voting is a lying hoax, democracy is nonetxistent. A handful people of goodwill will not change the malicious crowd. When I abhor shooting to kill people, it does not prove wrong those crazies who like to do it - just marks a difference of opinions. TELLING society what it needs is fascism, socialism, or religion. OK. but the idea is not killing is bad. The idea is killing me or my children is bad, and so I might vote for someone who will help (or promise to help) to minimize the probability of that happening. Bruno Be careful with your words: they are mostly meaningless substitutes. John M. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:50 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen money, and that's the case today. There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia) then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property. Where there is government, the police protect their property and the rich attempt to control the government through propaganda and buying influence. So long as the rich are not so rich as to live in a different 'world' than the middle class and they are relatively diverse this works OK. But the system seems to be unstable in that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. So those who inherit wealth tend to gain even more wealth. Society needs to do something to stabilize the system and prevent the increasing concentration of wealth. I completely agree. The problem is that with money, you can produce more money in two ways, honestly or dishonestly Bruno, before I touch the basics - could you explain what you would consider to produce M O R E money HONESTLY? Same question to Brent's text above: that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. I don't see a 'productive' way how 'the rich' get more wealth and power by using their wealth and power. It is exploitation, political scam, bribery, terrorism, etc. - all in the framework of accepted morals of the system (either capitalist, or fascist). I recall some basics (I am no 'Socialist') from Marx: NOBODY owns Nature so any natural products (mining, farming, or other) are valued 'honestly' as recompensation for the efforts invested into the natural process for getting money - honestly - productively, without exploitation. Does any mine-owner work on his product? Does any Farming conglomerated stockholder work honestly on the crop? I do not advocate the CEO to sweep the floor: there is tasks' - organization in which everyone has a role to perform, but are the roles proportionately paid for? Mao tried to switch 'roles' temporarily - he failed. Lenin realized that such just distribution is impossible in today's society and postulated FIRST the development of som COMMUINST MAN who lives up to such 'just distribution' of benefits - surely realizing the impossibility of such development. All other (Socialist?) countries suffered from the same malaise as the (democraticly?) capitalistic ones: the leadership and its power usurped wealth, acquired MONEY and POWER on the back of the 'not so fortunate' exploited majority. Alas, I have no solution to remedy the situation. Re-hire Dr. Guillotine is unrealistic. JM On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote: On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen money, and that's the case today. There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia) then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property. Where there is government, the police protect their property and the rich
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel. You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen). So you still need a clean energy source to do the conversion. This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon- neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even cool the earth too. Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time? Can we do better, I mean today? Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: [4DWorldx] Is mass mental or physical ?
On 11 November 2013 09:44, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Liz: it all starts with the proper use of words we use so imroperly. Musttrynottofeelshadenfreude... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11 November 2013 18:18, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, it's not an answer to say, Well, less than 75 is an age you must be sometime. Jason at least had an answer, although I don't think his answer leads to immortality either. I didn't say 75 is an age you must be sometime - I said 75 is an age you must be before you can be 76. You can only reach age N by traversing all lower ages first. You can't use a self-sampling argument to show that you shouldn't be your current age if you *have* to pass through that age before you can experience any greater ages. This is an answer. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote: 3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply? ?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests of it's citizens: Vote them out. We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data to vote them out. In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens realize this, because they are kept uninformed. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 November 2013 21:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel. You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen). So you still need a clean energy source to do the conversion. This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon-neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even cool the earth too. Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time? Yes, but unfortunately the whole process takes millions of years. Can we do better, I mean today? Not at carbon sequestration, but to achieve a reduction in CO2 by growing plants we would have to stop using cars and power plants and so on. The reason I gave the above suggestion is that if we can do it, it would enable us to be carbon neutral without giving up our civilisation to do so. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 09 Nov 2013, at 20:13, meekerdb wrote: On 11/9/2013 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Tegmark thinks he will survive, if the gun works sufficiently well. if not he might degrade and eventually ... die. This makes no sense to me. It is annoying, but we can degrade a lot, yet we can't die (with just comp, or, ITSM, with just the quantum MWI). With comp, we can expect jump, and consciousness phase transition, though. Aside from not finding myself the oldest person on the planet, I see a problem with quantum immortality in that quantum mechanics is time- reverse invariant. So I should be 'past immortal' also. Can you imagine that immortality *is* in the past. And well, that was nice, but now you give some chances to mortality, just to compare. But as Mark Twain said, I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. If you recognize yourself in some other (human, or not) being(s) that is not clear at all. Bruno If we are what our brains do it is easy to see why we should live from past (low entropy) to future (higher entropy), be born and die. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
To understand consciousness, you have to get personal. Otherwise it's hearsay.
Hi Hans, Your mind has been self-limited due to your materialism. Consider this: Bertrand Russell said (correctly) that there are two forms of knowledge: a) knowledge by description (anything in language, impersonal, third person singular, public knowledge, hearsay) This is all that materialism can provide you with. example: you know that Obama is president. b) knowledge by acqaintance ( this is first person singular experience, which is what consciousness is. This is personal and private. Thus it is good evidence in court. Materialism rejects anything personal b) and so will never understand consciousness. example: you have met Obama. While Russell correctly saw those two forms, he apparently never understood, or at some time rejected, b) and became a logical atomist, which finally gave up. Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 12:04 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 2:19 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 12:29 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: As I said before, I am agnostic on this issue for the following reasons: - I am not educated in climate science and I am sufficiently educated in science to understand that it would take years of full-time effort to get to a point where I could judge the merit of climate science research findings by myself -- even there I would probably have to become an insider, because I understand that a lot of key data is never made publicly available; - I am sufficiently knowledgable of complex systems to be skeptical of the predictive power of any complex systems model at our current level of sophistication; - The issue became so heavily politicised that it is basically not reasonable to trust news reporting on either side of it. I am aware of the 5th IPCC report and I am also aware of claims by reputable climate scientists that the models' predictions appear to be deviating increasingly from the observables: http://judithcurry.com/2013/10/30/implications-for-climate-models-of-their-disagreement-with-observations/ Are you aware that Judith Curry was on the Berkley Earth team to resolve the question of whether the earth is actually warming. She and Richard Muller had been critical of the analyses performed by NOAA, Hadley, CRU, and GISS. When the new analysis, which met all the past criticisms, confirmed all the previous conclusions, she quit the team and shifted her criticism from it's not happening to it's not predictable. Notice that means it could be a lot worse than predicted too - but the Deniers and FUDers never mention that. I've been around long enough to know that she could possibly describe the same sequence of events in a way that makes her look good and her opponents bad. I am more interested in the graphs. Then look at these: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/02/2012-updates-to-model-observation-comparions/ Ok so what's wrong with Judith's graphs? I am not invested in disproving global warming. I like to think I am scientifically-minded, so I accept reality whatever it is. I hope it is wrong. I suspect some people want it to be true. Yes, you're the perfect example of the success of the Deniers FUD campaign. Maybe, but I would be more confident that I was witnessing a serious scientific debate if people were not using terms like Deniers and FUD campaign. But that's exactly the point. You are NOT witnessing a serious scientific debate. There's ZERO serious science on the side of Deniers. This is an extraordinary claim. Zero serious science? They are like anti-evolutionist. You resort too much to ad hominem and arguments from authority. If we're having a long conversation about this then use it to teach me something instead. Explain me the models and explain why the deniers are wrong. All they do is look for some small anomaly (like a prediction that was off) and say, What about THAT?. You are witnessing a disinformation campaign - and the cui bono is pretty obvious. 98% of all climate scientists agree that AGW is happening and it will have bad consequences. This is a badly disguised argument from authority. It's precisely phrases like 98% of all climate scientists... that triggered my BS alarms in this issue. Since you said you didn't feel up to understanding the science what are you going to rely on? I didn't say I didn't feel like it or that I was unwilling to do it. I said I believed it would not be possible, with a reasonable amount of effort, to have an informed opinion. Are you a climatologist? If not, you seem to believe otherwise beacuse you arrived at a strong conclusion. In which case, feel free to tell me about the models and why it's easier to be certain than I think. Talking heads on Faux News or the IPCC? This is a false dichotomy, of course. I sent you a link from the blog of an accredited climate scientist. Her credentials seem legit, from what I can gather from the Internet. Your reply to that was to attack her character, not her ideas or data. This worries me. I assume Faux News means Fox News? I'm not an american so I must have watched Fox News two or three times in my life, out of morbid curiosity when travelling. Plus a few funny videos on youtube that people share. Telmo. But you're aware of skeptical scientists, like Judith Curry (who are given TV time on Faux News), so it's a toss-up. It's been heavily politicized - by money from the fossil fuel companies - so no news can be trusted. You're not expert enough to read the scientific literature - so you're agnostic. This may be the case. You *suspect* some people want it to be true??? Well I'm almost sure. In other words you suspect some academics of wanting to trash
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
The effects of global warming are visible in quite a few places around the world now. Glaciers have retreated worldwide, and the Arctic sea ice is getting thinner and not extending so far. Measurements indicate average temperatures have risen, and there are of course increased levels of atmospheric CO2. Since I am not an expert I have to trust those who are, such as the World Meteorological Organization. Their latest report says the planet experienced unprecedented high-impact climate extremes in the ten years from 2001 to 2010, the warmest decade since the start of modern measurements in 1850. Those ten years also continued an extended period of accelerating global warming, with more national temperature records reported broken than in any previous decade. Sea levels rose about twice as fast as the trend in the last century. A WMO report, The Global Climate 2001-2010, A Decade of Climate Extremeshttp://library.wmo.int/opac/index.php?lvl=notice_displayid=15110, analyses global and regional temperatures and precipitation, and extreme weather such as the heat waves in Europe and Russia, Hurricane Katrina in the US, tropical cyclone Nargis in Myanmar, droughts in the Amazon basin, Australia and East Africa, and floods in Pakistan. Obviously they could all be politically motivated or in the pay of mysterious socialist organisations, and it's always possible that their modelling is wildly inaccurate, but unless someone is actually making up the data and the measurements then *something* is going on which is causing the world to warm. It appears to be an observational fact, and it's one which has potentially dire consequences for the human race, since it can wipe out swathes of the easy argicultural life we've enjoyed since the start of the last interglacial. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, The thing is as I said is that you have to be *first* 75 before being older... you're talking like every moment of your life was chosen randomly... they aren't (at least for me) before today, it was yesterday, not a random moment, and tomorrow will be tomorrow not a random moment in my life. Using your argument I should never have been a child. Quentin it's not an answer to say, Well, less than 75 is an age you must be sometime. Jason at least had an answer, although I don't think his answer leads to immortality either. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
Oops I meant OR a googol years, of course. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11 November 2013 22:47, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, The thing is as I said is that you have to be *first* 75 before being older... you're talking like every moment of your life was chosen randomly... they aren't (at least for me) before today, it was yesterday, not a random moment, and tomorrow will be tomorrow not a random moment in my life. Using your argument I should never have been a child. I must admit I'm baffled that the normally sensible Mr Meeker finds it odd that one has to live through one's life consecutively, with or without quantum immortality. As stated, you can't use a Bayesian selection argument when the points you're chosen are constrained to occur sequentially, whether you're going to live to be 100, 1000, a million of a googol years, you still have to start at 1 and work your way up. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 10 Nov 2013, at 19:31, meekerdb wrote: On 11/9/2013 11:37 PM, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 08:13, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 1:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Tegmark thinks he will survive, if the gun works sufficiently well. if not he might degrade and eventually ... die. This makes no sense to me. It is annoying, but we can degrade a lot, yet we can't die (with just comp, or, ITSM, with just the quantum MWI). With comp, we can expect jump, and consciousness phase transition, though. Aside from not finding myself the oldest person on the planet, I see a problem with quantum immortality in that quantum mechanics is time-reverse invariant. So I should be 'past immortal' also. But as Mark Twain said, I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. If we are what our brains do it is easy to see why we should live from past (low entropy) to future (higher entropy), be born and die. Leaving aside time reversibility (which I am myself rather hot on) for a moment, if you're quantum immortal you can only expect to eventually find yourself the oldest person. Give it time. You have to go through the bit beforehand beforehand... True, but finding yourself in the first 1/N of your life when N=inf is highly unlikely. Accepting some absolute self-sampling assumption (ASSA), which should not be assumed. This does not mean that you are not doing a point, but that you should recast it in the Relative SSA (RSSA). Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM To: everything-list Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
I will reject them with a pack of snuff and a fan. They will run towards their politicians crying for their human rights 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com Watch out the black helicopters are coming for you *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2013 1:21 AM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World No. In this case I´m not insulting, just gently defending myself, since I´m a Warmism infidel, I used to be a dangerous smoker , so may I have to pay for it with my life if the next wave of human rights advocates take over. And, I have to confess, I fart from time to time and no doubt this will be severely punished, as a noisy and smelly violation of Human Rights, by the state and the International institutions in a few years. 2013/11/11 Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com When somebody doesn’t agree with you, do you then start insulting them? *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Alberto G. Corona *Sent:* Sunday, November 10, 2013 6:36 PM *To:* everything-list *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World I think that, since the forces of progress and human dignity lost Siberia as the location for stablishing psychiatrics to reconduct deviated enemies of the People, The North and South poles can well be used to make global warming negationist to reconsider is position against Humanity and human rights. Don´t you think so, comrade Meekerdb? 2013/11/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/9/2013 3:09 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 9:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 9:37 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Brent, my analogy, however badly its thought-up, is to force the idealists to produce. My idea was to force the idealist back to painful reality and hard choices, rather then mentally living in La La land. Saying Oh they're working on solar and soon.. How about forcing the libertarians to painful reality. They're going through the six stages of denial: 1. There is no global warming. 2. The science is uncertain. 3. There's global warming but it's just a natural cycle. 4. Global warming will really be good for us. 5. It's too costly to stop global warming. 6. Nothing can be done. Most of them I know are stuck around 3 or 4 now. They're hoping to delay any action so they can get to 6. Why? Because they'd rather face extinction than admit there are some things that you need government to do. Brent, Out of curiosity: why do you care so much about what libertarians think? They are a small minority. I believe most are very much aware that big government is here to stay. Most people in the western world vote for some variation of a conservative or liberal party, both statist. Surely if you are right, and global warming is an existential threat, and government intervention is the only way to solve it, what libertarians think should be quite low in your list of concerns no? Except that they have a disproportionate voice in the public debate because their message is amplified by monied interests who depend on fossil fuel (e.g. the Koch brothers). There was only a small number of lawyers, publicists, and scientists who claimed that: 1. Smoking has nothing to do with lung cancer. 2. There may be a relation but the science is uncertain. 3. Lung cancer just occurs naturally. 4. There are new, healthier cigarettes. 5. It will hurt the economy to limit cigarettes. 6. People should be free to smoke if they want to. and they delayed any government action against smoking for forty years. In fact some of them are *exactly* the same people hired to spread doubt about global warming. To undertake big government action in a democracy you need a solid majority in the populace. As long as libertarians and oil companies can sow doubt that's enough to prevent any action. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
A Grand Council of Truth? And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Ah, but Brents' point is that smoking and cancer are proven fact. However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. So were the Eugenicists that lead directly to Dachau. Almost 100% concurred (physicians, anthropologists, geneticists, biologists) on this fact. What's a motivation for exaggerating the impacting of AGW? More power over peoples lives by politicians (unless one agrees with the self-congratulatory speeches the give on their sacrifice for public service?), academicians who would have guaranteed income from research, Billionaires, can get subsidies from Uncle Sugar-so all is well. On the other side, there are coal companies, oil drillers, who would suffer economically. So, who is the villain, Colonel Mustard in the kitchen, or the master's butler? My suspicion is that people, in the BRIC's and also the US must be pouring some significant co2, methane, and carbon black into the atmosphere. To what effect, I do not know, because I do not trust. All I can say, if you've got a substitute electricity maker, and it works 7x24, affordable, doesn't pollute, then bring it forward. If not, then we're all just playing pretend with our own lives. Example: When Germany shut down it nukes 2 years ago because of Fukushima, they are now burning hundreds of megatons of US coal. This is the result of not having a Working Substitute ready. -Original Message- From: Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World You comment does not merit a response. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 7:58 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 4:21 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Richard Lindzen from MIT is a serious academic scientist who has some reservations about the IPCC reports and is often labeled as a denier. I put my faith in hisresearch. I hope you didn't also put your faith in those doctors who had reservations as to whether smoking causes lung cancer? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 12:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 18:18, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, it's not an answer to say, Well, less than 75 is an age you must be sometime. Jason at least had an answer, although I don't think his answer leads to immortality either. I didn't say 75 is an age you must be sometime - I said 75 is an age you must be before you can be 76. You can only reach age N by traversing all lower ages first. You can't use a self-sampling argument to show that you shouldn't be your current age if you /have/ to pass through that age before you can experience any greater ages. I don't see the relevance of that. I had to pass through being 5 too. Suppose you are shown a machine and told that it is counting to infinity, i.e. indefinitely. You're asked to guess what number it's on. Would you be surprised if it were on 75? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
You are making this too complicated. We have living examples every year when the power drops due to too, hot, too cold. Let's use Paris where this has occurred over the last 10 years at least twice. The heat comes in from North Africa, a blocking high happens over northern Europe, and the heat sinks in. France's reactors go on full, and there's still not enough air conditioning to cool people. Elders die first, then the very young, and there were thousands dead if I recall right. The same thing happens when winter sets in, peoples power lines drop from ice, heat goes out, people die, first the elderly, then the infants. In 2001 Los Angeles, but their economics ordered the price to stay low on Nat Gas, the suppliers said F-O, and there were rolling blackouts and brownouts in LA. My fear. Chris, installs some solar panels and wind farms, it covers 23% of total electrical production. Chris. order the filthy dirty fascist polluting power sources to go cold. There are rolling blackouts and brownouts. In December, a big winter storm hits. First oldsters, then babies, people complain a little. Chris responds, Look, people die all the time. At least a lot fewer people will die now of pollution caused disease, our climate will start to heal, we can move, now, slowly, painfully, to a clean energy future. Sacrifices must be made if the human species is to survive. Onward to a better brighter future! So name your poison, climate collapse or social disintegration due to a energy starvation? -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:24 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World Cool, I didn't bother to look it up, but rather remembered San Onofre. Whatever you want for solar, and if it cannot supply replacement electricity sufficiently, and you still shutdown the dirty sources, anyway, people will die. Explain exactly how people will die? Curious to see how your thinking works to make you state this as if it were a fact. -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:21 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:08 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World One example might be the San Onofre plant in California, near San Diego. It's a uranium burner, and supplies 90% of the electricity, about 85% of the time. But let us look at your sun and wind power contribution that you mentioned before. 40 GW, which I am assuming, is GW's per kilowatt hour, rather than a day, a week, etc? Lets say, its not inconsiderable (40 x 1000 MW plants) but its also not reliable when the sun don't shine, the winds don't blow. Do you expect these clean sources to fully replace the dirty one's in ten years, twenty years, five years, thirty? When can we turn of these poisonous electricity sources that we have come to rely on? Do you advocate shutting these suckers down, before the solar and wind supplied power is fully, implemented? The San Onofre nuclear power plant has been decommissioned – it is past its service life and now many more billions of dollars are going to be need to be spent over decades of time in order to decommission this facility – (it was very intelligently sited on an earthquake fault line by the way) Cost estimates for permanently closing and decommissioning San Onofre are over $4 billion. “The plant's first unit, Unit 1, operated from 1968 to 1992.[5] Unit 2 was started in 1983 and Unit 3 started in 1984. Upgrades designed to last 20 years were made to the reactor units in 2009 and 2010; however, both reactors had to be shut down in January 2012 due to premature wear found on over 3,000 tubes in the recently replaced steam generators.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nuclear_Generating_Station The actual answer to your question then is that the San Onofre power plants are supplying 0% of the San Diego electric energy market with electric power. You might want to pick a better example to make your case. LOL -Original Message- From: Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 1:51 pm Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World Name me one large city that gets its power 100% exclusively from coal or from nuclear? You can’t because all major energy markets are fed by a mix of energy generation capacity. Yet you keep on with this straw
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 12:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote: 3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply? ?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests of it's citizens: Vote them out. We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data to vote them out. In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens realize this, because they are kept uninformed. And so they think their interests are different than what you think they are. But that's different. In a democracy you want the government to act according the interests people hold, not what someone else thinks their interests should be. This is why a democracy only works well with an educated populace. But educated is a relative term. The world and technology becomes more complex and what you can really be educated in becomes a smaller and smaller fraction. In many things you have to rely on experts. But in spite of this, democracy still seems better than the alternatives. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 12:15 AM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 21:07, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Nov 2013, at 08:42, LizR wrote: On 10 November 2013 18:11, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/9/2013 6:13 PM, spudboy...@aol.com mailto:spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Let me ask you Jesse do you suggest any substitute that we can turn to for transforming world civilization to clean power? The only significant thing I can think of, would be hiring Craig Venter to produce some methane or hydrogen maker, that can, if necessary convert sea water to fuel. You seem ignorant that converting sea water to fuel takes more energy than you can get from burning the fuel (hydrogen). So you still need a clean energy source to do the conversion. This would be a possible way of creating fuel for easy transport. One of the big points about petrol is that it's very transportable. The best solution to the world's energy problems imho would be to find a method of extracting carbon dioxide from the air and converting it plus water into petrol using solar power. Carbon-neutral petrol and we don't have to rejig all our existing transport systems. If we can extract more carbon than we use we might even cool the earth too. Is that not what the plants are doing, all the time? Yes, but unfortunately the whole process takes millions of years. That's to produce oil and coal. But we could just burn plants - which we once did. Or we can extract liquid fuels in various ways from plants (e.g. ferment to alcohol). But these methods are, so far, very inefficient - less efficient than wind or photovoltaics. Maybe genetic engineering of algae to produce oils will make it practical. Brent Can we do better, I mean today? Not at carbon sequestration, but to achieve a reduction in CO2 by growing plants we would have to stop using cars and power plants and so on. The reason I gave the above suggestion is that if we can do it, it would enable us to be carbon neutral without giving up our civilisation to do so. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3629/6823 - Release Date: 11/09/13 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 12:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 18:18, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, it's not an answer to say, Well, less than 75 is an age you must be sometime. Jason at least had an answer, although I don't think his answer leads to immortality either. I didn't say 75 is an age you must be sometime - I said 75 is an age you must be before you can be 76. You can only reach age N by traversing all lower ages first. You can't use a self-sampling argument to show that you shouldn't be your current age if you *have* to pass through that age before you can experience any greater ages. I don't see the relevance of that. I had to pass through being 5 too. Suppose you are shown a machine and told that it is counting to infinity, i.e. indefinitely. You're asked to guess what number it's on. Would you be surprised if it were on 75? It depends how fast it counts and when it was built... If the machine was built recently, and it added 1 every year... no I wouldn't. Quentin Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 1:28 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I didn't say I didn't feel like it or that I was unwilling to do it. I said I believed it would not be possible, with a reasonable amount of effort, to have an informed opinion. Are you a climatologist? If not, you seem to believe otherwise beacuse you arrived at a strong conclusion. In which case, feel free to tell me about the models and why it's easier to be certain than I think. I'm not a climatologist, but I can read the literature. I certainly don't have the time, expertise, nor inclination to teach an online class in climate change, and it would be redundant anyway. Read David Archer's book Global Warming, Understanding the Forecast, it has plenty of references to the scientific literature. There are excellent discussions of every aspect of the scientific climate questions (but not the economic or human impact) online at realclimate.org. Read the comments too, there are plenty of critics of specific technical points - as in any real scientific enterprise. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
This is true, Professor Marchal, but more directly, what if they tell Brent, as US Director of the Climatological Remediation Bureau, Stop telling is what to do. You are already rich and all we want to do is catch up. It's not fair that you have so much, while our people struggle. Why don't you go worry about your own country, and leave us the hell, alone! Brent, in direct contact with the Prime Minister/President, recommends an economic boycott of the environmental polluters. The BRIC's respond with fury, and declare a counter boycott. China goes to the UN to complain about economic imperialism, and tries to persuade other countries to boycott these wicked, imperialist, westerners, from using economic weapons to damage the economy and political independence of their home lands. All Loans to the imperialist country, the ASU, are halted. The President calls this economic and monetary, piracy! Brent, disgusted by their insane, intransigence, on the climate, on human survival, calls the President at the golf course, or shooting hoops, says: Sir. These people and their wicked polluting ways must cease otherwise, the future of our children and their children cannot be assured. The President asks: What do you recommend, Brent? Brent, tersely, replies: We must make an example, Mr. Prime Minister, one of their cities, using a airbust attack at 350 meters, detonating force at 150 kiloton yield. The President is silent for several seconds. Brent uses this as a spot to jump in, Look, Mr. Prime Minister, our psy-ops teams have determined that if we act soon, the opponents of fighting AGW, will not only cave, economically, but also environmentally! They will adhere to Kyoto, and so much, more, They want their people to survive as well! The President/Prime Minister thinks a moment Of course most progressives, simply ignore what the BRIC's contribute to AGW, and just focus on Europe, North America, New Zealand and Aus. This is because the BRIC's are mostly brown toned, and they also tend to get violent if you piss them off. Not like us lily livered yanks. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:13 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote: 3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply? ?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests of it's citizens: Vote them out. We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data to vote them out. In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens realize this, because they are kept uninformed. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 1:47 AM, LizR wrote: Obviously they could all be politically motivated or in the pay of mysterious socialist organisations, and it's always possible that their modelling is wildly inaccurate, but unless someone is actually making up the data and the measurements then /something/ is going on which is causing the world to warm. And I would add that the modeling has consistently predicted global warming from fossil fuel burning starting with Savante Arhennius's pencil and paper calculations in 1890. It's simple, basic physics see that more CO2 in the atmosphere will make it warmer. It's much harder to say exactly how much. It's harder still to predict the effects on weather patterns, biota, and economies. So one has varying degrees of confidence, depending on what variables are being predicted. But remember that uncertainty can go either way - it's not a knock-down argument for inaction. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 1:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, The thing is as I said is that you have to be *first* 75 before being older... you're talking like every moment of your life was chosen randomly... they aren't (at least for me) before today, it was yesterday, not a random moment, and tomorrow will be tomorrow not a random moment in my life. Using your argument I should never have been a child. No, I'm just saying that sampling your life at random I'm less likely to find you being less than a year old than being less than a thousand years old. If my life is infinite, then it seems surprising that I find myself less than 75yrs old. I don't think this is a very strong argument, since it would apply no matter what age I found myself to be. But it seems curious that I find it to be true of everyone around me also. As though we all started more or less together. So we weren't past eternal either. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 1:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, The thing is as I said is that you have to be *first* 75 before being older... you're talking like every moment of your life was chosen randomly... they aren't (at least for me) before today, it was yesterday, not a random moment, and tomorrow will be tomorrow not a random moment in my life. Using your argument I should never have been a child. No, I'm just saying that sampling your life at random Your life is not sampled at random, you have to be one year old before being 75; before being 1000 before being 10¹⁰. I'm less likely to find you You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. being less than a year old than being less than a thousand years old. If my life is infinite, then it seems surprising that I find myself less than 75yrs old. It's not, because it is mandatory that in that long lifespan you find yourself 75. You cannot be very old before having been less old. Your life is sequential and that sequence cannot be avoided, even if you'll live an infinity of time. I don't think this is a very strong argument, since it would apply no matter what age I found myself to be. Exactly, it's just ASSA is non-sensical. But it seems curious that I find it to be true of everyone around me also. As though we all started more or less together. So we weren't past eternal either. I don't see how QI imples past eternality, it's not mandatory that infinity goes both way, things can have a start without an end. Quentin Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Ah the apocalyptic mentality. Apocalypticists are like nationalists. The laters think that they were born in the best possible country by pure chance. The apocalypticists, also by pure chance, think that they are in a pivotal moment on history where some catastrophe or something wonderful will happen. The end of all wars, the prosperity forever, the enlightened age of eternal progress, the climatic apocalypse, the new Acuario age, or the second coming of Christ. (or the first coming of the leader that will end wars, tame the climate,a inaugurate an acuario age and so on). Of the two, the apocalypticists are the worst. A nationalist can kill few before being defeated because they can´t hide the fact that they work for themselves and they find rapid opposition. but the apocalypticsts work for the good of humanity and are here and there everywhere, ready to commit whatever crimes to advance or avoid the coming apocalypse. And because their propaganda say that they work for the good of Humanity, and not for themselves and their laboratories and their political careers, they find little opposition. On the contrary, they find armies of hyperinformed idiots. They are late-news addicts with null background knowledge in human affairs and almost in anything else except his little specialization, uncapable to interpret and integrate what they see and hear for a couple of yeas if not days and compose mentally the big picture. Ther fish-like memory and their opinions are shaped by professional opinators that follow the smell of money and the last trends in polls. You can do little against their propaganda armies. Their generals don´t have personal lifes. They are like priests, dedicated to evangelize unbelievers to their obsessions. Occupy the burocracies of the states and specially the international institutions. they feel compelled to work in the mass media and the Education. You will never win the battle. You have a familly, children, a future in which to think... They don`t. Just mock at them. sit patiently an wait for the reality to work for you, and the apocalypse will ridicule them one more time with his absence. The great and unlooked for discoveries that have taken place of late years have all concurred to lead many men into the opinion that we were touching on a period big with the most important changes.http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasmalt366117.html Thomas Malthushttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasmalt366117.html ☨1834 2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 1:47 AM, LizR wrote: Obviously they could all be politically motivated or in the pay of mysterious socialist organisations, and it's always possible that their modelling is wildly inaccurate, but unless someone is actually making up the data and the measurements then *something* is going on which is causing the world to warm. And I would add that the modeling has consistently predicted global warming from fossil fuel burning starting with Savante Arhennius's pencil and paper calculations in 1890. It's simple, basic physics see that more CO2 in the atmosphere will make it warmer. It's much harder to say exactly how much. It's harder still to predict the effects on weather patterns, biota, and economies. So one has varying degrees of confidence, depending on what variables are being predicted. But remember that uncertainty can go either way - it's not a knock-down argument for inaction. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 7:55 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 1:28 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I didn't say I didn't feel like it or that I was unwilling to do it. I said I believed it would not be possible, with a reasonable amount of effort, to have an informed opinion. Are you a climatologist? If not, you seem to believe otherwise beacuse you arrived at a strong conclusion. In which case, feel free to tell me about the models and why it's easier to be certain than I think. I'm not a climatologist, but I can read the literature. I certainly don't have the time, expertise, nor inclination to teach an online class in climate change, and it would be redundant anyway. Read David Archer's book Global Warming, Understanding the Forecast, it has plenty of references to the scientific literature. There are excellent discussions of every aspect of the scientific climate questions (but not the economic or human impact) online at realclimate.org. Read the comments too, there are plenty of critics of specific technical points - as in any real scientific enterprise. Alright, thanks for the references. I'll dig in as time permits! Best, Telmo. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 10:13 AM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ah, but Brents' point is that smoking and cancer are proven fact. However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. ?? To nobody outside the Soviet Union - and only to a few there. So were the Eugenicists that lead directly to Dachau. That's like saying Mendel led directly to Dachau - for very expansive meanings of directly. Almost 100% concurred (physicians, anthropologists, geneticists, biologists) on this fact. And your source for this is? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 10:42 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 12:11 AM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 18:18, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 5:59 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 November 2013 13:53, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/10/2013 3:54 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Sure, but the thing is that *you have to*, and asking such question at that stage is very likely... you can't be 10⁵ years old before having been 1 year old... it's simply nonsense. So you're falling back on the all-purpose 'everything' answer; whatever you observe is one of everything and that why everything is consistent with it - like why I'm not a Chinaman? There isn't any falling back here that I can see. It seems quite reasonable to say you have to pass through your birthdays in ascending order. I can't see why that is problematic / contraversial? Sure, but if I live infinitely long I will have almost all my experiences older than 75. So when I note that I'm not that old and that seems improbable, it's not an answer to say, Well, less than 75 is an age you must be sometime. Jason at least had an answer, although I don't think his answer leads to immortality either. I didn't say 75 is an age you must be sometime - I said 75 is an age you must be before you can be 76. You can only reach age N by traversing all lower ages first. You can't use a self-sampling argument to show that you shouldn't be your current age if you /have/ to pass through that age before you can experience any greater ages. I don't see the relevance of that. I had to pass through being 5 too. Suppose you are shown a machine and told that it is counting to infinity, i.e. indefinitely. You're asked to guess what number it's on. Would you be surprised if it were on 75? It depends how fast it counts and when it was built... If the machine was built recently, and it added 1 every year... no I wouldn't. Suppose you were told it's been around forever. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). But what's your analysis? Everybody I've ever heard of who was more than 40yrs older than me is dead. Do you not see that as evidence against my immortality? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
2013/11/11 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Only if your current moment was sampled from all the available you moments, but that's not the case... But what's your analysis? Everybody I've ever heard of who was more than 40yrs older than me is dead. Do you not see that as evidence against my immortality? I see this as evidence that if immortality is true it cannot be shared... by itself it does not rule it out. Quentin Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 12 November 2013 09:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Unless you're Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5 this argument doesn't make sense, beause you are forced to sample your days in ascending order. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 November 2013 07:13, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. I didn't realise the Russian government at the time allowed his views to be peer reviewed and independently replicated. In fact I thought they created a climate in which no one was safely able to dispute his views. Without the normal scientific processes being available, these views were not 'proven or even tested. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 09:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Unless you're Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5 this argument doesn't make sense, beause you are forced to sample your days in ascending order. But what does that have to do with the probabilities? A sample is when I ask myself, how probable is it that my age is what it is today. I don't have to do this everyday. In fact I'm very unlikely to have done it before age 4. So I don't see why sequence is determinative. ISTM is only implies that tomorrow will be less likely than today (since I may not ask tomorrow; possibly because I'm dead). Suppose you're Benjamin Button. For him would it be OK to say it's surprising I'm only 75? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 12 November 2013 13:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 09:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Unless you're Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5 this argument doesn't make sense, beause you are forced to sample your days in ascending order. But what does that have to do with the probabilities? A sample is when I ask myself, how probable is it that my age is what it is today. I don't have to do this everyday. In fact I'm very unlikely to have done it before age 4. So I don't see why sequence is determinative. ISTM is only implies that tomorrow will be less likely than today (since I may not ask tomorrow; possibly because I'm dead). Sequence is determinative because that's how the universe works. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, to the last syllable of recorded time. That's the second law doing its thing, and unless you've got very good reason to think otherwise, you shouldn't be surprised that it is. All we're saying is that you should be unsurprised to find yourself living your life in ascending order. You have to pass through your current age at some point, unless you die first, and you should expect to do so before you reach a greater age. If at your current age you ask how probable it is that you are your current age, the answer is 1. If you're quantum immortal then you will have the same probability every time you ask yourself that question into the indefinite future. You are always 100% likely to be your present age! Suppose you're Benjamin Button. For him would it be OK to say it's surprising I'm only 75? I don't know anything about Benjamin Button. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
Actually, if you were Billy Pilgrim, you would know immediately you fell into the chronosyncinastic infundibulum (sp?) whether you were quantum immortal or not, because the chances would be infinitesimal of ending up in the first N years of your life, where N is *any* finite value. In fact Vonnegut got that wrong (in a way) because he said there were both pre-birth and post-death existences and if these lasted indefinitely, there would hardly be any chance that Billy would see one second of his life on Earth (or Tralfamadore (sp?)) ever again. Yet in the novel he was there almost all the (subjective) time, a bit like Dr Who always turning up on 20th century Earth despite having an entire universe and infinite time to wander in. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. 2013/11/12 LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 12 November 2013 07:13, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: However, at the time, Troifim Lysenko's views on biology were proven. I didn't realise the Russian government at the time allowed his views to be peer reviewed and independently replicated. In fact I thought they created a climate in which no one was safely able to dispute his views. Without the normal scientific processes being available, these views were not 'proven or even tested. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 4:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 13:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 09:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Unless you're Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5 this argument doesn't make sense, beause you are forced to sample your days in ascending order. But what does that have to do with the probabilities? A sample is when I ask myself, how probable is it that my age is what it is today. I don't have to do this everyday. In fact I'm very unlikely to have done it before age 4. So I don't see why sequence is determinative. ISTM is only implies that tomorrow will be less likely than today (since I may not ask tomorrow; possibly because I'm dead). Sequence is determinative because that's how the universe works. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, to the last syllable of recorded time. That's the second law doing its thing, and unless you've got very good reason to think otherwise, you shouldn't be surprised that it is. All we're saying is that you should be unsurprised to find yourself living your life in ascending order. You have to pass through your current age at some point, unless you die first, and you should expect to do so before you reach a greater age. If at your current age you ask how probable it is that you are your current age, the answer is 1. If you're quantum immortal then you will have the same probability every time you ask yourself that question into the indefinite future. You are always 100% likely to be your present age! Suppose you're Benjamin Button. For him would it be OK to say it's surprising I'm only 75? I don't know anything about Benjamin Button. Benjamin Button lived his life in reverse. So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Quentin, what's you inference from the fact you, and every body you've ever heard of died before reaching age 150? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 4:39 PM, LizR wrote: Actually, if you were Billy Pilgrim, you would know immediately you fell into the chronosyncinastic infundibulum (sp?) whether you were quantum immortal or not, because the chances would be infinitesimal of ending up in the first N years of your life, where N is /any/ finite value. In fact Vonnegut got that wrong (in a way) because he said there were both pre-birth and post-death existences and if these lasted indefinitely, there would hardly be any chance that Billy would see one second of his life on Earth (or Tralfamadore (sp?)) ever again. Yet in the novel he was there almost all the (subjective) time, a bit like Dr Who always turning up on 20th century Earth despite having an entire universe and infinite time to wander in. Do I have an infinite lifetime in which to ask, Why am I not older than 75? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11/11/2013 5:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. Because they had already seen the process being manipulated by the well funded Deniers and their political allies. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. Yes, some scientists might be biased - so we should assumed you deniers have the truth on the basis of no evidence except that in the past some scientists have been biased. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 November 2013 14:04, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Every science whose conclusions have effects in politics has a high risk of being manipulated. In the URSS and here. From Anthropology to long term Meteorology to everything in the middle. The one that does not realize that is poor fool who does not know how the world works and has replaced with all his innocent stupidity the fairy tales of the past with the fairy tales of supposed sciences. Yes of course. If you read the mails of the East Anglia Climategate scandal, One of the main concern of the Warmists were about to keep in control over the peer reviewing mechanism of the main scientific magazines Long interchanges of mails were devoted to talk about stablishing barriers in the peer reviewed magazines by perverting the PR mechanisms. The fact is that peer reviewing is not a guaranty, on the contraty. It acts as an ideological filter rather than as a quality filter in every discipline in which politics and scientists benefit from mutual cooperation by interchanging money for ideological ammunition. So what would you suggest as a replacement? The scientific method is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill on democracy, the worst system we have apart from all the others we've tried. You might like to consider that hurricanes and bush fires and rising seas and melting glaciers can't be influenced by political opinion, and it would take a huge effort to generate the evidence coming in from all over the world as part of some vast conspiracy. We're forever hearing about the wildest storms, the highest (and lowest) temperatures on record, the greatest floods and droughts and so on. Is it just possible that the overwhelming mountain of evidence indicates, maybe, something is really going on? (And by the way, supposing there is no global warming and we go ahead and develop sustainable power sources for no reason whatsoever before the oil runs out - won't that just be awful?) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 12 November 2013 14:16, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 4:39 PM, LizR wrote: Actually, if you were Billy Pilgrim, you would know immediately you fell into the chronosyncinastic infundibulum (sp?) whether you were quantum immortal or not, because the chances would be infinitesimal of ending up in the first N years of your life, where N is *any* finite value. In fact Vonnegut got that wrong (in a way) because he said there were both pre-birth and post-death existences and if these lasted indefinitely, there would hardly be any chance that Billy would see one second of his life on Earth (or Tralfamadore (sp?)) ever again. Yet in the novel he was there almost all the (subjective) time, a bit like Dr Who always turning up on 20th century Earth despite having an entire universe and infinite time to wander in. Do I have an infinite lifetime in which to ask, Why am I not older than 75? I don't know. Presumably you wouldn't ask yourself that once you were over 75. But the point is, you have to be less than 75 until you reach the age of 75. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 12 November 2013 14:14, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 4:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 13:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 3:39 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 09:37, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 11:21 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: You find you every day, according to you, every day should not happen, only being 10¹⁰⁰ is likely, it's just non-sense, your life is not random sampled, yesterday happen before today and before tomorrow. That doesn't make today less likely than tomorrow. Sure, but it makes the interval (0,75) less likely than the interval (75, inf). Unless you're Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5 this argument doesn't make sense, beause you are forced to sample your days in ascending order. But what does that have to do with the probabilities? A sample is when I ask myself, how probable is it that my age is what it is today. I don't have to do this everyday. In fact I'm very unlikely to have done it before age 4. So I don't see why sequence is determinative. ISTM is only implies that tomorrow will be less likely than today (since I may not ask tomorrow; possibly because I'm dead). Sequence is determinative because that's how the universe works. Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, to the last syllable of recorded time. That's the second law doing its thing, and unless you've got very good reason to think otherwise, you shouldn't be surprised that it is. All we're saying is that you should be unsurprised to find yourself living your life in ascending order. You have to pass through your current age at some point, unless you die first, and you should expect to do so before you reach a greater age. If at your current age you ask how probable it is that you are your current age, the answer is 1. If you're quantum immortal then you will have the same probability every time you ask yourself that question into the indefinite future. You are always 100% likely to be your present age! Suppose you're Benjamin Button. For him would it be OK to say it's surprising I'm only 75? I don't know anything about Benjamin Button. Benjamin Button lived his life in reverse. Oh, right, like the guy in Martin Amis' Time's Arrow (itself a rip off from An Age by Brian Aldiss). Presumably according to QTI he's at the end of an infinite future lifetime, or whatever? But since he's unphysical I guess we can say what we like about him. So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Quentin, what's you inference from the fact you, and every body you've ever heard of died before reaching age 150? My normal inference is that everyone dies. Apparently the QTI throws doubt on this by pointing out that we have only sampled an infinitesimal proportion of the available branches of the multiverse, and that in another infinitesimal portion there might be people who live forever (somehow). What is your inference from the fact that everywhere you've ever travelled has been on or near the surface of a congenial planet supplied with air, water and all the necessities of life? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 6:38 PM, LizR wrote: Benjamin Button lived his life in reverse. Oh, right, like the guy in Martin Amis' Time's Arrow (itself a rip off from An Age by Brian Aldiss). Presumably according to QTI he's at the end of an infinite future lifetime, or whatever? But since he's unphysical I guess we can say what we like about him. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button was by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1922). So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Quentin, what's you inference from the fact you, and every body you've ever heard of died before reaching age 150? My normal inference is that everyone dies. Apparently the QTI throws doubt on this by pointing out that we have only sampled an infinitesimal proportion of the available branches of the multiverse, and that in another infinitesimal portion there might be people who live forever (somehow). But doesn't QTI imply that everybody is immortal, as Jason infers. Did you read Divided by Inifinity yet? What is your inference from the fact that everywhere you've ever travelled has been on or near the surface of a congenial planet supplied with air, water and all the necessities of life? That I'm the product of evolution on this planet. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 12 November 2013 16:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 6:38 PM, LizR wrote: Benjamin Button lived his life in reverse. Oh, right, like the guy in Martin Amis' Time's Arrow (itself a rip off from An Age by Brian Aldiss). Presumably according to QTI he's at the end of an infinite future lifetime, or whatever? But since he's unphysical I guess we can say what we like about him. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button was by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1922). Oh well, he gets precedence, then. But in any case I don't see any particular relevance, probably that's my fault... So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Quentin, what's you inference from the fact you, and every body you've ever heard of died before reaching age 150? My normal inference is that everyone dies. Apparently the QTI throws doubt on this by pointing out that we have only sampled an infinitesimal proportion of the available branches of the multiverse, and that in another infinitesimal portion there might be people who live forever (somehow). But doesn't QTI imply that everybody is immortal, as Jason infers. Did you read Divided by Inifinity yet? Yes it does, but only in infinitesimal slivers of the multiverse, which is what I was trying to say in my roundabout way. No I skimmed it, but I hope / think I get the point. Is there anything else I should be taking from it apart from this is what quantum immortality might look like, assuming a nearby gamma ray burst and so on ? What is your inference from the fact that everywhere you've ever travelled has been on or near the surface of a congenial planet supplied with air, water and all the necessities of life? That I'm the product of evolution on this planet. Right, you're here in an extremely unlikely situation if you take random samples from the universe. I was trying to draw a parallel here, if I can just remember what it was... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Spacetime is (nonphysical, platonic) mind
On 11/11/2013 7:35 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 November 2013 16:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 11/11/2013 6:38 PM, LizR wrote: Benjamin Button lived his life in reverse. Oh, right, like the guy in Martin Amis' Time's Arrow (itself a rip off from An Age by Brian Aldiss). Presumably according to QTI he's at the end of an infinite future lifetime, or whatever? But since he's unphysical I guess we can say what we like about him. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button was by F. Scott Fitzgerald (1922). Oh well, he gets precedence, then. But in any case I don't see any particular relevance, probably that's my fault... So I'll ask you the same thing I asked Quentin, what's you inference from the fact you, and every body you've ever heard of died before reaching age 150? My normal inference is that everyone dies. Apparently the QTI throws doubt on this by pointing out that we have only sampled an infinitesimal proportion of the available branches of the multiverse, and that in another infinitesimal portion there might be people who live forever (somehow). But doesn't QTI imply that everybody is immortal, as Jason infers. Did you read Divided by Inifinity yet? Yes it does, but only in infinitesimal slivers of the multiverse, which is what I was trying to say in my roundabout way. No I skimmed it, but I hope / think I get the point. Is there anything else I should be taking from it apart from this is what quantum immortality might look like, assuming a nearby gamma ray burst and so on ? What is your inference from the fact that everywhere you've ever travelled has been on or near the surface of a congenial planet supplied with air, water and all the necessities of life? That I'm the product of evolution on this planet. Right, you're here in an extremely unlikely situation if you take random samples from the universe. I was trying to draw a parallel here, if I can just remember what it was... That you can't infer much from I'm X except that it's possible to be X. To make probabilistic inferences you either need a lot of samples (other people) or you need somebody to hand you a likelihood function. I think the problem with QTI is that QM doesn't guarantee another experience of any quality. It may guarantee that something happens, but the experience may the experience of being a bunch of loosely related molecules. Craig likes to talk about 'sense' which when pressed it attributes to everything. Experience may be like that; everything has 'experience', it's just not human experience and when you stop having human experience you're dead. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
it's like when there actually are rising temperatures and rising sea levels and rising O2 and increasingly wild weather and ice melting all over the world, you stop and say, oh hang on, maybe Fourier had a point after all when he worked out the Greenhouse effect in 1824. Rather than just putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and singing loudly. On 12 November 2013 16:43, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 11 Nov 2013, at 19:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/11/2013 12:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Nov 2013, at 05:52, meekerdb wrote: 3. What do you recommend if the US refuses to comply? ?? You mean the U.S. government refuses to act in the best interests of it's citizens: Vote them out. We could have meant that the US government fake to comply. Once a government lie, and the press is no more free, you might miss the data to vote them out. In the health politics, many governments refuse to act in the interests of its citizens, since a long time, but very few citizens realize this, because they are kept uninformed. And so they think their interests are different than what you think they are. But that's different. In a democracy you want the government to act according the interests people hold, not what someone else thinks their interests should be. This is why a democracy only works well with an educated populace. But educated is a relative term. The world and technology becomes more complex and what you can really be educated in becomes a smaller and smaller fraction. In many things you have to rely on experts. But in spite of this, democracy still seems better than the alternatives. Yes, I agree that democracy is better. What is even better: democracy without bandits having got the power. In the case of health there has been and still exist a tradition of deliberate persistant desinformation. Prohibition is a democracy killer. That was well understood by the founders of America. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:47 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World it's like when there actually are rising temperatures and rising sea levels and rising O2 and increasingly wild weather and ice melting all over the world, you stop and say, oh hang on, maybe Fourier had a point after all when he worked out the Greenhouse effect in 1824. Rather than just putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and singing loudly. Perhaps. because some truths are too much for some to bear and illusion is necessary for them to keep themselves from losing it. Obligatory Matrix quote J Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. On 12 November 2013 16:43, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Our Demon-Haunted World
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 18:49, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: A Grand Council of Truth? Certainly not. Honesty is not knowing truth. It is just being able to correct oneself when being shown wrong. It is very simple, if they were not jealousy, vanity, pride, and things like that. Good point. but we are wrapped up in these other emotions and often driven by them, some more than others for sure, but all of us - if we are honest with ourselves -- to some degree on some occasions (no shame no blame) We are so wrapped up in all of this that it drives us to hotly deny that anything of the sort could possibly be so; we cannot even begin admitting to it. Naturally there is a whole range of personality types along the spectrum; perhaps some humans have transcended it all. they say Buddha did, but the rest of us to one degree or another suffer from our own blind failings. It is a struggle within sometimes to not fall into these all too easy to fall into habits and their blind unthinking way of supplying the mind with readymade answers. This very quick, but unthinking mechanism makes sense in a field survival situation, where there is no time for thought to slow down response. Just some cardinal trigger and there is an immediate amplification of the signal in the brain and an immediate zoom to the fore of our minds. Often, especially in situations, such as can develop on internet discussion groups, primitive instincts take over - I have seen it, so have you, so has everyone here. Passion can drive instinctive behavioral modes to the fore. Re-learning the inner being living inside the mind is rather much a lifelong pursuit - for after all we are a moving target, and if we do not keep a certain vigilance we all risk falling into habitual modes of mind. And, you already know where I am going with this. One night, while dining at a restaurant, a good one, the High Reasoner, meets with an old friend to discuss the new FIFA rules issued for the World Cup. The friend slides over a closed sports magazine. Have a look at this article in the middle, here. Inside the magazine is a rather thick envelope. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2013 3:06 am Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 11 Nov 2013, at 01:27, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: Ok, but this is a technique for priming the intellectual pump. If it produces nothing good, nothing powerful, then this method would be a complete failure. It seems to me that this works very well, as long as the society is below some level of corruption, in which case you can be misinfoirmed, and by not knowing it and being honest, you spread the lies and this leads to problem soon or later. Problems comes from the liars, but also from the people who have been lied. It is very often hard to delineate them. Bruno -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World On 09 Nov 2013, at 19:09, spudboy...@aol.com wrote: I am emphasizing having governments print out (Keynes style) absolutely, colossal, amounts of cash, as a reward for coming up with excellent disease treatments and cures, human solar system tours, and clean energy solution, environmental remediation. If the banks won't fund researchers, then private equity will, if private equity won't then a million contributors-open source-will, provided they get a cut of the reward offered by a government prize. I wouldn't be shocked if you, Professor, Marchal, might summon up 25 ECU's in exchange for receiving 3000 ECU's or Golden Yuans, in payment, 5 years later. Only if this reflects some honest contracts. Honesty is not just moral, it is something which elevates a lot the real value of money. It generates trust. Be honest. If you don't try to be honest for the calm of your conscience, do it for the wealth of your children. Today big corporations are based on lies. That's the problem. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from
Re: Our Demon-Haunted World
On 12 November 2013 17:47, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote: Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. :D Personally I don't think anyone knows how deep the rabbit hole goes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
