Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 6 May 2021, at 17:19, Philip Benjamin  wrote:
> 
> [Bruno Marchal] “I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex 
> reproductive cycle involving humans...”
> [Philip Benjamin]
> This is a Darwinian view of life.

Indeed. Darwin was inspired by Descartes Mechanism, and a case can be made that 
Darwin use already *digital* mechanism, annunciating both genetics and computer 
science.




> https://www.britannica.com/science/life  Dorion Sagan et al. General partner, 
> Sciencewriters, Amherst, Massachusetts. Coauthor of Slanted Truths: Essays on 
> Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution; What Is Life?; Cracking the Aging Code; and 
> others.
> “Life, living matter and, as such, matter that shows certain attributes that 
> include responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and 
> reproduction. Although a noun, as with other defined entities, the word life 
> might be better cast as a verb to reflect its essential status as a process. 
> Life comprises individuals, living beings, assignable to groups (taxa). Each 
> individual is composed of one or more minimal living units, called cells, and 
> is capable of transformation of carbon-based and other compounds 
> (metabolism), growth, and participation in reproductive acts….”
> “Conscious responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and 
> reproduction” are not man-made machine properties.

Right.



> There is no machine that consciously falls down and worships its maker “man” 
> as god!!

That might be a good point for them. Worshipping God, or worst, man, is an idea 
of tyrants, to train people in worshipping … tyrants.



> Your “cigarette” no matter how smart you make it will never develop in a 
> trillion years (by extrapolation) any such quality. It is subject to entropy.

Here you come back with the assumption that there is some physical reality out 
there, but when doing metaphysics/theology with the scientific method, it is 
better to assumes as less conceptual principles as possible. Elementary 
arithmetic is enough, given it entails already all computations, but also a 
statistic on them confirmed by the empirical observation (quantum mechanics, 
obviously without collapse).






>   In fact, within a few years it disintegrates and “disappears” into 
> oblivion. Dorion Sagan (writer, ecological philosopher, son of astronomer 
> Carl Sagan and Biologist Lynn Margulis) is altogether avoiding the question 
> of aseity here. But fearsome aseity shows up in-your-face. It is either dear 
> matter or LIFE that can create both dead matter and other life forms that has 
> aseity-- one of the two, not both. Entropy and DEATH cannot be 
> self-existent—life first, death only after life. Death need be introduced—by 
> whom or what? 

Just persistent and lawful dream by universal numbers.




>Is there any life-form today without chemistry? How can chemistry be 
> complete without the chemistry of 95%  (or 80%? ) of the universe that is 
> made of invisible matter? Dark atoms may be made of sub-units of negligible 
> mass relative to electrons but of the same mass ratios as the sub-units of 
> “light-matter” (ordinary visible matter).
> (https://www.prlog.org/12085722-dr-philip-benjamin-explains-the-bio-chemistry-of-our-inner-selves-in-his-latest-book.html
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications
>  
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13edb314d06a4c75aa8908d68dd6f642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636852351721925645&sdata=0MoG5LbT1O9jDWxZesqIwFehJJdXUSyBjlhu9FVV7gU%3D&reserved=0>https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy
>  
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpost%2FIs_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13edb314d06a4c75aa8908d68dd6f642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636852351721935644&sdata=YouGhNSGbFsgokwTWC%2BwvBGTCZgTazQwuViYJo9erLk%3D&reserved=0>

Part of this is plausibly phenomenologically real, but inconsistent with 
Mechanism if added in the ontology.

Bruno




> Philip Benjamin
>  
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
> Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 7:42 AM
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>  
>  
> On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:53, Philip Benjamin  <mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  
> Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger&#

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

general_the...@googlegroups.com<mailto:general_the...@googlegroups.com>  
Subject: FW: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal] "I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex 
reproductive cycle involving humans..."
[Philip Benjamin]
This is a Darwinian view of life.
https://www.britannica.com/science/life  Dorion Sagan et al. General partner, 
Sciencewriters, Amherst, Massachusetts. Coauthor of Slanted Truths: Essays on 
Gaia, Symbiosis, and Evolution; What Is Life?; Cracking the Aging Code; and 
others.
"Life, living matter and, as such, matter that shows certain attributes that 
include responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and 
reproduction. Although a noun, as with other defined entities, the word life 
might be better cast as a verb to reflect its essential status as a process. 
Life comprises individuals, living beings, assignable to groups (taxa). Each 
individual is composed of one or more minimal living units, called cells, and 
is capable of transformation of carbon-based and other compounds (metabolism), 
growth, and participation in reproductive acts"
"Conscious responsiveness, growth, metabolism, energy transformation, and 
reproduction" are not man-made machine properties. There is no machine that 
consciously falls down and worships its maker "man" as god!! Your "cigarette" 
no matter how smart you make it will never develop in a trillion years (by 
extrapolation) any such quality. It is subject to entropy.  In fact, within a 
few years it disintegrates and "disappears" into oblivion. Dorion Sagan 
(writer, ecological philosopher, son of astronomer Carl Sagan and Biologist 
Lynn Margulis) is altogether avoiding the question of aseity here. But fearsome 
aseity shows up in-your-face. It is either dear matter or LIFE that can create 
both dead matter and other life forms that has aseity-- one of the two, not 
both. Entropy and DEATH cannot be self-existent-life first, death only after 
life. Death need be introduced-by whom or what?
   Is there any life-form today without chemistry? How can chemistry be 
complete without the chemistry of 95%  (or 80%? ) of the universe that is made 
of invisible matter? Dark atoms may be made of sub-units of negligible mass 
relative to electrons but of the same mass ratios as the sub-units of 
"light-matter" (ordinary visible matter).
(https://www.prlog.org/12085722-dr-philip-benjamin-explains-the-bio-chemistry-of-our-inner-selves-in-his-latest-book.html
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F282154962_Bio_dark-Matter_Chemistry_Implications&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13edb314d06a4c75aa8908d68dd6f642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636852351721925645&sdata=0MoG5LbT1O9jDWxZesqIwFehJJdXUSyBjlhu9FVV7gU%3D&reserved=0>
 
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpost%2FIs_spirit_our_energy_Is_spirit_dark_energy&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13edb314d06a4c75aa8908d68dd6f642%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636852351721935644&sdata=YouGhNSGbFsgokwTWC%2BwvBGTCZgTazQwuViYJo9erLk%3D&reserved=0>
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 7:42 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:53, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  
Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]
"No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as 
arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with 
life".
[Bruno Marchal]
"This looks like vitalism to me, frankly". Also, you seem to assume a physical 
reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). 
I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for primary matter or 
physicalism.
[Philip Benjamin]
   There is not a single man-created mechanism that has "life" or 
reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability.


I don't know that. I am not sure by what you mean by "life".
Personally, I consider that the artificial/natural distinction is ... 
artificial. I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex 
reproductive cycle involving humans...



Life ia always and everywhere a

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 27 Apr 2021, at 15:53, Philip Benjamin  wrote:
> 
> everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  
> Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>  
> [Philip Benjamin]
> “No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as 
> arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with 
> life”.
> [Bruno Marchal]
> “This looks like vitalism to me, frankly”. Also, you seem to assume a 
> physical reality out there. That requires to abandon Mechanism (and thus 
> Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no evidences for 
> primary matter or physicalism.
> [Philip Benjamin]
>There is not a single man-created mechanism that has “life” or 
> reproductive-- genetically informed-- capability.


I don’t know that. I am not sure by what you mean by “life”. 
Personally, I consider that the artificial/natural distinction is … artificial. 
I consider a cigarette as a living organism, with a complex reproductive cycle 
involving humans...



> Life ia always and everywhere an ENDOWMENT not an EVLOTION mechanism. 
> CpenPagan Interpretation is fundaMentally flawed.


If you mean that Copenhague formulation of QM (often found in the textbook) is 
flawed, we agree.
But with the methodology imposed by the Mechanist hypothesis, we cannot invoke 
the physical laws, unless the goal is to measure the degree of truth in 
Mechanism. The physical laws are “just” a deep invariant of the universal mind 
(the mind common to all universal machine or number, or combinator (which I am 
currently explains on Facebook, in case you missed my little course here some 
years ago).




> Mixed State, Superposition of States, Many Worlds etc. follow from that.


Many Worlds/histories/computations follows from 2+2=4, or from KKK=K, … I have 
conclude “many-worlds” well before discovering that some physicists were 
already there.  In fact, I have been brainwashed myself into believing that the 
collapse was a physical phenomenon. I have thought that Mechanism could be 
false, due to that collapse, until I get Everett’s point, which shows that 
there are no empirical evidences for a collapse, nor for *any* “world" if we 
take that term is a naïve sense.




> The Schrödinger Equation postulates properties of wave functions or the 
> probabilistic quantum states. Many Worlds essentially suggest that those 
> probabilities of the quantum State are all real and do not meld to one state. 
> They all become entangled with a version of reality generating the quantum 
> decoherence into different universes that branch off from each other to 
> create Many Worlds. That is the neo-vitalism.


I don’t think so. It follows from QM-without collapse. That is why they have 
invented the collapse, to avoid the proliferation of histories. It is more 
coquetry than a reason.
And then, it follows from something much simpler, like arithmetic + Descartes 
or Darwin. Darwin is extended up to the origin of the laws of physics, in a 
precise testable way, as physics becomes the science of inferring testable 
number relations which should be invariant of the observer (aka the universal 
machine).



> There is no chemistry without physics and no biology without chemistry.


I disagree. See my paper “Amoeba, Planarua and Dreaming Machine”. Chemistry is 
a mathematical persistent illusion among numbers. It is not ontologically real, 
but it is empirically real, yet purely phenomenological. The numbers (or 
combinators, …) are incredible gifted in prestidigitation. They are belief 
creators...



> Many worlds will need Many World chemistry for Many Worlds biology. How can 
> mixed states or superposition of states CREATE life from imaginary waves?


Because life is an imaginary wave, perhaps? It seems to be the case. All 
machine find quantum mechanics by introspection, it seems. (See my papers, as 
this is NOT entirely obvious,. Everett and most physicists miss this).



> The de Broglie hypothesis is the idea that matter (anything with mass) can 
> also exhibit WAVEKIKE (not wavy) properties. It is a mathematical derivation 
> of wavelength of an electron by relating Albert Einstein's mass-energy 
> equivalency equation (E = mc2) with Planck's equation (E = hf), the wave 
> speed equation (v = λf ) and momentum in a series of substitutions. Here mc^2 
> is replaced with mv^2, because massive particles do not travel at the speed 
> of light. E=mv^2 =hf, Since momentum p = mv, λ= h/p (or m = h/v λ). The mass 
> of the particle state is ALWAYS a reality here—perhaps even for corpuscular 
> light at an indeterminate decimal place--, assuring every HONEST scientist 
> that WAVELIKENES  ≠ WAVINESS. Matter and light each has energy and momentum, 
> but light has a wavelength in addition. Therefore  de Broglie th

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

 not account for the characteristics of 
life.”
Best regards
Philip Benjamin


From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 19 Apr 2021, at 19:51, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

[Bruno Marchal]
“Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist 
hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside in 
some mode of self-reference. What many people miss is that the notions of 
computer and computation are an arithmetical notion.
  Another “cultural” problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the 
(many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences 
that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, or 
= cannot be derived from less).” Bruno

[Philip Benjamin]
  Out of arithmetic only arithmetic can arise. Even that is questionable, 
because all arithmetic about any physicality is already predetermined—nothing 
new ARISES.

After Gödel 1931, we know that this is plausibly false, and provably false if 
we assume Mechanism. The arithmetical reality is out of time, so that in some 
sense nothing new arise from the 0th person perspective, or God’s perspective, 
… But for the internal perspective of any universal numbers *in* arithmetic, 
not only something new arise, but there are an infinity of surprises. No 
machine can get an effective theory about all the arithmetical truth, nor even 
define it, despite the clear intuition that we can have.
Before Gödel, we thought we could build the mathematical edifice on the 
“simple” arithmetical reality.
After Gödel, we know that we CANNOT use the mathematical edifice to get some 
foundation of even the simple arithmetical reality, but by using stringer and 
stronger theories, we can see a larger spectrum of the arithmetical reality.




No matter what people miss in notions of computer and computation as 
arithmetical notions. Everything physical is DEAD, unless it is ENDOWED with 
life.


This looks like vitalism to me, frankly.
Also, you seem to assume a physical reality out there. That requires to abandon 
Mechanism (and thus Darwin, etc.). I find this very speculative. There are no 
evidences for primary matter or physicalism.






Dead physicality is governed by binding energies including chemical energies 
ruled by chemical laws of bonding encoded as duet and octet configurations of 
particles of opposite spins.

I can’t use this, as I do not assume anything primarily physical.





Life cannot arise from DEAD physicality.


I agree. In fact life cannot arise from anything physical, as the physical has 
to emerge from the machine’dreams/computations (and thus arguably life).





Bohr was fundamentally wrong in introducing undefined subjectivity (whatever 
that means) of living matter into quantum physics.


I agree.




Subjectivity is supposed to collapse a mathematical/statistical function, which 
in turn causes subjectivity. Nothing could be more circular than that. 
Moreover, if subjectivity affects a wavefunction either the former is also a 
mathematical function or the latter has also subjectivity. Otherwise it is a 
category error. A probability is a theoretical NUMBER which has no CREATIVE 
powers and no aseity!! .

OK (I guess for different reason than you).




Amplitudes do not change that status. It has now become one of the gods of 
Western Acade-Media Paganism (WAMP).
   There are only two cultures possible for the entire human race: 1 .  
Pagan culture of un-awakened/kundalini/reptilian consciousness; 2 . Non-pagan 
culture of awakened/quickened/regenerated consciousness.


Hmm...





All the rest are sub-cultures of these two.


I would say that there are two sort of people. The con-artist who acts like 
they have found it, and the researcher who propose theories, without ever 
claiming them true, but on the contrary they propose verification test, and are 
happy when when disproved, as they learn something.






Awakening in turn is historically of two types:  1 . Intrinsic-awakening, 
through self-discipline, education and training of the mind. 2 . Extrinsic 
awakening through extrinsic agents, as diverse as Eastern mystical powers from 
a multiplicity of sources (such as TM, Yoga, mantras,  occultism, 
spirit-possession et.) and the Western Scriptural power of a Singularity of 
Source [Adonai.(plural) YHWH (singular) Elohim (uni-plural, with Patriarchal, 
Prophetic and Apostolic imprimatur).
   Augustinian Awakening is that of the “inner man” 
(journals.euser.org/files/articles/ejls_sep_dec_15/Halil.pdf<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.euser.org%2Ffiles%2Farticles%2Fejls_sep_dec_15%2FHalil.pdf&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc6eefddf6fdd423cc93008d906612202%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaa

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

t; days.   
>  
> Note:  WAMP = Western Acade-Media Pagan(ism) 
> Philip Benjamin


I tend to believe the contrary. The truth is in our head, not in any books. But 
some books can provide tools for improving the research. Machine’s mystical 
state are personal, and the wise machine remains silent on it, or propose a 
(precise, testable) theory. Sacred texts are just theology for the maternal 
level, the rest is observation, theory building and sharing, and testing. The 
real divide is between Plato, where the observable is a symptom for a reality 
we can search, and Aristotle, where observation is a criterium of reality (a 
position which is already refuted by the dream argument, and with mechanism, 
the dream argument becomes a theorem).

Bruno





>  
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 7:11 AM
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>  
>  
> On 14 Apr 2021, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin  <mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> [Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>]
> “But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole 
> point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)”.
> [Philip Benjamin]
>   That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical 
> and systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the 
> order of the day,  you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad 
> Verecundiam  respect for “authority” of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to 
> strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, 
> probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES 
> is no exception.  A theory of reality is not REALITY itself.
>  
> Indeed. That is even provable for the arithmetical reality, which is beyond 
> all effective theories.
>  
>  
> 
> Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns.
>  
>  
> Hmm… You might confuse the numbers, and the expression naming the numbers in 
> some theory, like the numeral 0, s0, ss0, ...
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY 
> unless the “of what” is specified.
>  
>  
> Assuming that there is anything more, which I doubt.
>  
> It helps, when doing metaphysics with the scientific method to make clear 
> what we assume and what we derive from it. When we assume mechanism, and if 
> one is aware of the execution of all computers in arithmetic, the burden of 
> the proofs that we should assume more than numbers (or combinators…) is in 
> the hand of the believers in that something more.
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons  is a categorematic statement. The 
> probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is 
> zero, nada, zilch.  If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction 
> (explosion, included),  the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction 
> is conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a 
> reaction are also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
> As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr 
> has already assigned them to “stationary orbits” (predetermined energy 
> levels). Then where do the new “stationary orbits” of NEW REALITIES 
> speculated in various “mathematical/statistical” theories originate? What 
> kind of “chemistries” are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many 
> Worlds etc. ? What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?
>  
>  
> Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist 
> hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside 
> in some mode of self-reference. 
>  
> What many people miss is that the notions of computer and computation are an 
> arithmetical notion. 
>  
> Another “cultural” problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the 
> (many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences 
> that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, 
> or = cannot be derived from less).
>  
> Bruno
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Philip Benjamin  
>  
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
> Sent: Wednesday,

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

s altogether unlike the  "Woke" sub-culture which is a constellation of 
juvenile beliefs and attitudes that were carefully introduced into the 
Augustinian West by WAMP-the-Ingrate.
Woke culture  pretends to be compassionate, tolerant, altruistic and 
intellectual. In fact it is glorified lethargy, dangerous illusion of liberty, 
social justice  and equality, that bestows social power to people who are 
sycophants of the WAMP. It coerces the rest with very oppressive laws based on 
fake or shallow and anachronistically misconstrued and passionate issues of 
sexism, environmentalism, Jihadism, feminism, racism, etc.), instead of facing 
the pain and tragedy in their own lives of addictions, life-styles and 
miseries. "Woke" legitimately merits to be a pejorative term, with its 
belligerent adherents willfully sticking to blatant lies of Marxism. QAnon  
started as online posts by a shadowy figure named "Q",  suddenly exploded into 
a cultish fringe movement that's been dubbed as "extreme right" -  usually a 
typical Marxist tactics - and is now deemed a potential domestic terror threat 
by some biased government agencies. The WAMP & the WOKE are willfully ignorant 
of these historical facts: 1 . Slavery was for the first time in human history 
abolished by law in the British Empire (the vastest, strongest, greatest 
noblest-not perfect-ever on planet Earth), thanks to the life-time effort of a 
Puritan MP, William Wilberforce protégé of  the cleric John Newton,  2 . 
Emancipation Proclamation was follower about six decades later in Puritan 
America, 3 . Ocean routes to the East were necessitated by the Jihadist 
blockade of all land routes through  conquests, 4 . Women's Suffrage, Abolition 
of Child Labor, of Sati, of Foot-binding, propagation of education, hospitals, 
charities, foreign aids etc. were biproducts of Augustinian awakenings of the 
"inner man" (bio dark-matter bodies)-unheard of before that in the world of 
conquests and dictatorships of un-awakened consciousness!! 5 . Ecclesiastical 
authorities of Galileo times were only defending the well-established ( and 
age-old) Ptolemaic science of those days.
 Note:  
WAMP = Western Acade-Media Pagan(ism)
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 7:11 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 14 Apr 2021, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

[Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>]
"But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole 
point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)".
[Philip Benjamin]
  That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical and 
systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the order 
of the day,  you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad 
Verecundiam  respect for "authority" of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to 
strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, 
probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES is 
no exception.  A theory of reality is not REALITY itself.

Indeed. That is even provable for the arithmetical reality, which is beyond all 
effective theories.


Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns.


Hmm... You might confuse the numbers, and the expression naming the numbers in 
some theory, like the numeral 0, s0, ss0, ...




Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY unless 
the "of what" is specified.


Assuming that there is anything more, which I doubt.

It helps, when doing metaphysics with the scientific method to make clear what 
we assume and what we derive from it. When we assume mechanism, and if one is 
aware of the execution of all computers in arithmetic, the burden of the proofs 
that we should assume more than numbers (or combinators...) is in the hand of 
the believers in that something more.



2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons  is a categorematic statement. The 
probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is 
zero, nada, zilch.  If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction 
(explosion, included),  the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction is 
conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a reaction are 
also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr has 
already assigned them to "stationary orbits" (pre

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 16 Apr 2021, at 11:04, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 5:58:59 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 14 Apr 2021, at 16:33, Alan Grayson > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
 On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson > wrote:
 
 When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
 claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
 Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
 simultaneously. AG
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, 
>>> and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any 
>>> possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>>> 
>>> Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead 
>>> and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?
>> 
>> By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as 
>> being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by 
>> Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the 
>> wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct 
>> description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor 
>> products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.
>>> And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
>>> predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG 
>> 
>> Because all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their 
>> corresponding mixed state.
>> 
>> Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AG
> 
> It is elementary quantum mechanics. If you measure “1/sqrt(2)(spin-up + 
> spin-down)” is the base {spin-up, spin-down}, you get different results than 
> measuring a half-half mixture of spin-up and spin-dow. This is usually 
> illustrate with polarisers in the textbook. 
> 
> Bruno
> 
> Can you give an example why the result will be different for superposition, 
> say with 70%/30% probability amplitudes,

Define the following pure state:

phi = sqrt(7/10) up + sqrt(3/10) down  

Prepare 100% of your particles in that pure state. Each individual particle is 
in that state, and so as a probability 1 to be found in that state, and 0 for 
the orthogonal state.

> versus a mixed state with same amplitudes.

Prepare 70% of your particle in the state up, and 30% in the state down, and 
mix them.



> It may be simple to show, but I admit to not being able to see any difference 
> between the cases. AG 

Consider the measuring apparatus MA’ corresponding to the base:

up’ = sqrt(7/10) up + sqrt(3/10) down, 

down’ = sqrt(7/10) up - sqrt(3/10) down

On the pure state defined above, measuring MA’, the probability to get a 
particle in the state up' is 1, and thus the probability to get down’ = 0, as 
said above.

Measuring MA’ on the particles on the mixed state has to be different.
The probability to get up’ will be the square of the scalar product (up, up’) 
for 70% of the particle, and will be given by the square of the scalar product 
(down, up’) for the remaining 30% of your particles. The result for the 
probability of getting down’ cannot be null in this case. 
(I have to go, I leave you the details; you need to make the relevant change of 
basis, but you don’t need to compute this to understand that for each of the 
mixed particles, you will have a non null probability for down’, yet that is 
null for the pure state).


Bruno







> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/63e93e6e-e1ff-4369-b830-de6f051d4995n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/598D8304-8406-4D29-B14E-41636BE5BA44%40ulb.ac.be.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 5:58:59 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 14 Apr 2021, at 16:33, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>> On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>>>
>>> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
>>> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
>>> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
>>> simultaneously. AG 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state 
>>> dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction 
>>> than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>>>
>>
>> *Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead 
>> and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE? *
>>
>>
>> By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” 
>> as being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by 
>> Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the 
>> wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct 
>> description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor 
>> products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.
>>
>> *And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
>> predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG *
>>
>> Because all pure superposition state gives different predictions than 
>> their corresponding mixed state. 
>>
>
> *Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AG*
>
> It is elementary quantum mechanics. If you measure “1/sqrt(2)(spin-up + 
> spin-down)” is the base {spin-up, spin-down}, you get different results 
> than measuring a half-half mixture of spin-up and spin-dow. This is usually 
> illustrate with polarisers in the textbook. 
>
> Bruno
>

*Can you give an example why the result will be different for 
superposition, say with 70%/30% probability amplitudes, versus a mixed 
state with same amplitudes. It may be simple to show, but I admit to not 
being able to see any difference between the cases. AG *

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/63e93e6e-e1ff-4369-b830-de6f051d4995n%40googlegroups.com.

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

Hi,  Bruno:
 I must say, you are reasonable, (unlike many whom one can identify as the 
authoritarian WAMP!!). This deserves a thoughtful reply which I hope to do 
later (time constraints now). Thanks for meaningful dialogue. Philip

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 7:11 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 14 Apr 2021, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

[Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>]
"But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole 
point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)".
[Philip Benjamin]
  That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical and 
systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the order 
of the day,  you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad 
Verecundiam  respect for "authority" of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to 
strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, 
probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES is 
no exception.  A theory of reality is not REALITY itself.

Indeed. That is even provable for the arithmetical reality, which is beyond all 
effective theories.



Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns.


Hmm... You might confuse the numbers, and the expression naming the numbers in 
some theory, like the numeral 0, s0, ss0, ...





Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY unless 
the "of what" is specified.


Assuming that there is anything more, which I doubt.

It helps, when doing metaphysics with the scientific method to make clear what 
we assume and what we derive from it. When we assume mechanism, and if one is 
aware of the execution of all computers in arithmetic, the burden of the proofs 
that we should assume more than numbers (or combinators...) is in the hand of 
the believers in that something more.




2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons  is a categorematic statement. The 
probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is 
zero, nada, zilch.  If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction 
(explosion, included),  the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction is 
conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a reaction are 
also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr has 
already assigned them to "stationary orbits" (predetermined energy levels). 
Then where do the new "stationary orbits" of NEW REALITIES speculated in 
various "mathematical/statistical" theories originate? What kind of 
"chemistries" are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many Worlds etc. ? 
What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?


Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist 
hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside in 
some mode of self-reference.

What many people miss is that the notions of computer and computation are an 
arithmetical notion.

Another "cultural" problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the 
(many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences 
that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, or 
= cannot be derived from less).

Bruno





Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 5:47 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles 
is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific 
theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and 
speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never can be wavicles, 
only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is 
needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the 
absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all 
possibilities.

But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of 
quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism).






Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious 
addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Ju

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 Apr 2021, at 17:15, Philip Benjamin  wrote:
> 
> [Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>]
> “But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole 
> point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)”.
> [Philip Benjamin]
>   That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical 
> and systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the 
> order of the day,  you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad 
> Verecundiam  respect for “authority” of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to 
> strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, 
> probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES 
> is no exception.  A theory of reality is not REALITY itself.

Indeed. That is even provable for the arithmetical reality, which is beyond all 
effective theories.


> Numbers form 0 to infinity are syncategorematic nouns.


Hmm… You might confuse the numbers, and the expression naming the numbers in 
some theory, like the numeral 0, s0, ss0, ...




> Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a categorematic expression of REALITY 
> unless the “of what” is specified.


Assuming that there is anything more, which I doubt.

It helps, when doing metaphysics with the scientific method to make clear what 
we assume and what we derive from it. When we assume mechanism, and if one is 
aware of the execution of all computers in arithmetic, the burden of the proofs 
that we should assume more than numbers (or combinators…) is in the hand of the 
believers in that something more.



> 2 electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons  is a categorematic statement. The 
> probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is 
> zero, nada, zilch.  If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction 
> (explosion, included),  the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction 
> is conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a 
> reaction are also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
> As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr 
> has already assigned them to “stationary orbits” (predetermined energy 
> levels). Then where do the new “stationary orbits” of NEW REALITIES 
> speculated in various “mathematical/statistical” theories originate? What 
> kind of “chemistries” are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many 
> Worlds etc. ? What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?


Good question. I can answer some of them in the frame of the computationalist 
hypothesis. Everything physical emerges from arithmetic as seen from inside in 
some mode of self-reference. 

What many people miss is that the notions of computer and computation are an 
arithmetical notion. 

Another “cultural” problem, since Aristotle, is the confusion between the 
(many) evidences that there is a physical reality, and the (absent) evidences 
that this physical reality is fundamental or primitive (= has to be assumed, or 
= cannot be derived from less).

Bruno




> Philip Benjamin  
>  
> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>  <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 5:47 AM
> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>  
>  
> On 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin  <mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> [Philip Benjamin]
> Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy 
> particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely 
> scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with 
> absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never 
> can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF 
> Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was 
> introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics 
> seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities.
>  
> But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point 
> of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism).
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other 
> serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined 
> them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are 
> not theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan world-view, 
> not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with 
> Niels Bohr.  

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 Apr 2021, at 16:33, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson > wrote:
>>> 
>>> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
>>> that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
>>> latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
>>> simultaneously. AG
>> 
>> 
>> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, 
>> and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any 
>> possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>> 
>> Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and 
>> Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?
> 
> By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as 
> being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by 
> Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the 
> wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct 
> description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor products 
> cannot be used to make the superposition going away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
>> predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG 
> 
> Because all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their 
> corresponding mixed state.
> 
> Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AG


It is elementary quantum mechanics. If you measure “1/sqrt(2)(spin-up + 
spin-down)” is the base {spin-up, spin-down}, you get different results than 
measuring a half-half mixture of spin-up and spin-dow. This is usually 
illustrate with polarisers in the textbook. 

Bruno



>  
> Of course, it is technologically hopeless to maintain a real cat is a real 
> superposition, but this is only due to our technical impossibility to isolate 
> the cat from us. The cat state will leak to us very quickly, and we will lose 
> the mean to get the sign of interferences. Yet, without assuming some 
> collapse, it is there forever…
> 
> That is a confirmation of mechanism, where an infinity of distinguishable 
> computations access our (relative) states, and makes us possibly diverging 
> into an infinity of alternate histories/computations. 
> 
> The burden of the proof belongs to those who claim that there is an 
> ontological physical reality, but then you got the “mind-body” problem, the 
> “why there is something” problem, and also, you need to speculate of a non 
> mechanist theory in psychology and biology (making Darwin loosing all its 
> explanative power).
> 
> There are tuns of evidences for Mechanism, and none for Materialism, as we 
> know since the Dream Argument, given that “evidences” are dream-able.
> 
> (Many people confuse the evidences for the physical laws, which are number 
> relations, with evidences for an ontological physical universes, but those 
> are different. The ontological question is a metaphysical question, not a 
> physical question. It is to used in any paper of physics, even if implicit in 
> the mind of some cosmologists … perhaps.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will 
>> be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state 
>> of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this 
>> case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy 
>> occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all 
>> relative universal number state in arithmetic.
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
> 
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a9ae7591-ebb1-482b-a2d4-a07a73ca588dn%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

[Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be<mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>]
"But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole 
point of quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism)".
[Philip Benjamin]
  That is indeed physics proper. One has to appreciate your methodical and 
systematic approach to this problem. It is commendable that, unlike the order 
of the day,  you do not rely on the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad 
Verecundiam  respect for "authority" of customs, institutions and I.Q.s, to 
strengthen your argument and provide an illusion of proof. However, 
probabilities are not necessarily possibilities. Amplitude of PROBABILITIES is 
no exception.  A theory of reality is not REALITY itself. Numbers form 0 to 
infinity are syncategorematic nouns. Numbers of what? 2 + 2 = 4 is not a 
categorematic expression of REALITY unless the "of what" is specified. 2 
electrons + 2 electrons = 4 electrons  is a categorematic statement. The 
probability of a massive particle being (or even becoming) a massless wave is 
zero, nada, zilch.  If my memory is correct even in a nuclear reaction 
(explosion, included),  the total charge before and after a nuclear reaction is 
conserved; so also the total NUMBER of nucleons before and after a reaction are 
also the same. It is the binding energies that are released.
As far as electrons in these PROBABILITES you cite are concerned, Bohr has 
already assigned them to "stationary orbits" (predetermined energy levels). 
Then where do the new "stationary orbits" of NEW REALITIES speculated in 
various "mathematical/statistical" theories originate? What kind of 
"chemistries" are available for these NEW REALITIES, such as Many Worlds etc. ? 
What is the nature of a Many World chemistry?
Philip Benjamin

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 5:47 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin 
mailto:medinucl...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles 
is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific 
theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and 
speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never can be wavicles, 
only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is 
needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the 
absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all 
possibilities.

But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of 
quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism).





Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious 
addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. 
Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not 
theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan world-view, not 
scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with Niels 
Bohr.


Which suggest that Einstein would have preferred Everett to Bohr. It is sad 
that Einstein died in 1955. Everett published the "many-worlds" formulation of 
QM (QM without collapse) in 1957. Most cosmologists prefer Everett, as it is 
hard to imagine some being observing the whole universe to collapse it in some 
state. Note that Belifante does exactly that: he claims that the use of QM in 
coslmology requires an observer for the whole universe, and likes to call it 
God, admitting that such a god is only a wave collapse, but Everett, like 
Mechanism, illustrates that this move is not necessary. We need only 2+2=4 & Co.

Bruno




Philip Benjamin
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  
everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson 
mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> wrote:

When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG


Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and 
twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible 
corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).

That's true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the 
indeterminacy is explained 

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 4:40:08 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>>
>> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
>> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
>> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
>> simultaneously. AG 
>>
>>
>>
>> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state 
>> dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction 
>> than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>>
>
> *Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead 
> and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE? *
>
>
> By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” 
> as being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by 
> Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the 
> wave evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct 
> description would use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor 
> products cannot be used to make the superposition going away.
>
>
>
>
>
> *And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
> predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG *
>
>
> Because all pure superposition state gives different predictions than 
> their corresponding mixed state. 
>

*Is this your idea of a proof, or even a plausibility argument? AG*
 

> Of course, it is technologically hopeless to maintain a real cat is a real 
> superposition, but this is only due to our technical impossibility to 
> isolate the cat from us. The cat state will leak to us very quickly, and we 
> will lose the mean to get the sign of interferences. Yet, without assuming 
> some collapse, it is there forever…
>
> That is a confirmation of mechanism, where an infinity of distinguishable 
> computations access our (relative) states, and makes us possibly diverging 
> into an infinity of alternate histories/computations. 
>
> The burden of the proof belongs to those who claim that there is an 
> ontological physical reality, but then you got the “mind-body” problem, the 
> “why there is something” problem, and also, you need to speculate of a non 
> mechanist theory in psychology and biology (making Darwin loosing all its 
> explanative power).
>
> There are tuns of evidences for Mechanism, and none for Materialism, as we 
> know since the Dream Argument, given that “evidences” are dream-able.
>
> (Many people confuse the evidences for the physical laws, which are number 
> relations, with evidences for an ontological physical universes, but those 
> are different. The ontological question is a metaphysical question, not a 
> physical question. It is to used in any paper of physics, even if implicit 
> in the mind of some cosmologists … perhaps.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state 
>> will be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure 
>> state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In 
>> this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same 
>> indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite 
>> multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a9ae7591-ebb1-482b-a2d4-a07a73ca588dn%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b0bc2f61-e8a2-4cd1

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 10 Apr 2021, at 16:47, Philip Benjamin  wrote:
> 
> [Philip Benjamin]
> Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy 
> particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely 
> scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with 
> absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never 
> can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF 
> Logic is all that is needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was 
> introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability statistics 
> seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities.

But the amplitude of probability is physically real: that is the whole point of 
quantum mechanics, not to mention arithmetic (with Mechanism).




> Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other 
> serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined 
> them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are 
> not theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan world-view, 
> not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with 
> Niels Bohr.   


Which suggest that Einstein would have preferred Everett to Bohr. It is sad 
that Einstein died in 1955. Everett published the “many-worlds” formulation of 
QM (QM without collapse) in 1957. Most cosmologists prefer Everett, as it is 
hard to imagine some being observing the whole universe to collapse it in some 
state. Note that Belifante does exactly that: he claims that the use of QM in 
coslmology requires an observer for the whole universe, and likes to call it 
God, admitting that such a god is only a wave collapse, but Everett, like 
Mechanism, illustrates that this move is not necessary. We need only 2+2=4 & Co.

Bruno


>   
> Philip Benjamin
> Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  everything-list@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Mixed State vs 
> Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>  
>  
> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  <mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
> that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
> latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. 
> AG
>  
>  
> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, 
> and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any 
> possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>  
> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
> lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
> seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, 
> the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring 
> in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative 
> universal number state in arithmetic.
>  
> Bruno
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
>  
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2F750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%2540googlegroups.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3f851e841ae145b76af908d8fc12d396%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637536505070959887%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EK8%2BBW4w4PEE5qgL55cGqx5wB2AmoBeJArWD7ZC3OEA%3D&reserved=0>.
>  
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%40ulb.ac.be
>  
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2FDA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%2540ulb.ac.be%3Futm_medi

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 10 Apr 2021, at 13:55, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson > > wrote:
>> 
>> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
>> that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
>> latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. 
>> AG
> 
> 
> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, 
> and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any 
> possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
> 
> Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead and 
> Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE?

By NOT adding the collapse postulate. Then even a state as “macroscopic” as 
being a dead or alive cat will inherit the superposition ilmplied by 
Schroedinger’s setting. That follows from the double linearly of both the wave 
evolution and of the tensor products. The fact that a correct description would 
use a huge number of dimension and a lot of tensor products cannot be used to 
make the superposition going away.





> And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
> predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG 

Because all pure superposition state gives different predictions than their 
corresponding mixed state. Of course, it is technologically hopeless to 
maintain a real cat is a real superposition, but this is only due to our 
technical impossibility to isolate the cat from us. The cat state will leak to 
us very quickly, and we will lose the mean to get the sign of interferences. 
Yet, without assuming some collapse, it is there forever…

That is a confirmation of mechanism, where an infinity of distinguishable 
computations access our (relative) states, and makes us possibly diverging into 
an infinity of alternate histories/computations. 

The burden of the proof belongs to those who claim that there is an ontological 
physical reality, but then you got the “mind-body” problem, the “why there is 
something” problem, and also, you need to speculate of a non mechanist theory 
in psychology and biology (making Darwin loosing all its explanative power).

There are tuns of evidences for Mechanism, and none for Materialism, as we know 
since the Dream Argument, given that “evidences” are dream-able.

(Many people confuse the evidences for the physical laws, which are number 
relations, with evidences for an ontological physical universes, but those are 
different. The ontological question is a metaphysical question, not a physical 
question. It is to used in any paper of physics, even if implicit in the mind 
of some cosmologists … perhaps.

Bruno





> 
> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
> lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
> seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, 
> the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring 
> in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative 
> universal number state in arithmetic.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a9ae7591-ebb1-482b-a2d4-a07a73ca588dn%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/3B4FA409-E166-4C93-9743-5BF5CCD95149%40ulb.ac.be.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 8:48:57 AM UTC-6 medinuclear wrote:

> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/57789/...
>
> “The myth that electrons are waves or behave as waves or sometimes are 
> waves and sometimes are not, depending of the observer, is one of the 
> more persistent myths that surround quantum mechanics. Electrons can 
> exist in the same state. E.g. one electron in an hydrogen atom can be in 
> the same state than another electron in another atom”.
>
> *Philip Benjamin*
>
> *Wave-likeness  ≠  Waviness   *
>

*I've asked you not to post on this thread. I am not interested in your 
worthless opinions. If electron waves didn't exist, neither would electron 
microscopes. AG* 

>  
>
> everyth...@googlegroups.com  *On Behalf Of *Alan 
> Grayson
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 10, 2021 2:02 PM   *Subject:* Re: Mixed State vs 
> Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>
>  
>
> On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-6 medinuclear wrote:
>
> [*Philip Benjamin*]
>
> Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy 
> particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely 
> scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with 
> absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never 
> can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An *AS 
> IF Logic* is all that is needed, not *Both &* Fallacy. The Schrodinger 
> Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability 
> statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities. Some of 
> these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious 
> addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. 
> Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not 
> theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan world-view, 
> not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with 
> Niels Bohr. 
>
> *Philip Benjamin*
>
>  
>
> *You're an idiot. Please don't reply again on this thread. Apparently, 
> you've never heard of something called an electron microscope. AG *
>
> Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* 
> Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>
>  
>
> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
> simultaneously. AG 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state 
> dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction 
> than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>
>  
>
> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will 
> be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure 
> state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In 
> this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same 
> indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite 
> multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
>
>  
>
> Bruno
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/daecc06c-eded-4ae1-be7a-de40bc4053d2n%40googlegroups.com.

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/57789/...
“The myth that electrons are waves or behave as waves or sometimes are waves 
and sometimes are not, depending of the observer, is one of the more persistent 
myths that surround quantum mechanics. Electrons can exist in the same state. 
E.g. one electron in an hydrogen atom can be in the same state than another 
electron in another atom”.
Philip Benjamin
Wave-likeness  ≠  Waviness

everything-list@googlegroups.com  On Behalf 
Of Alan Grayson
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 2:02 PM   Subject: Re: Mixed State vs 
Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-6 medinuclear wrote:
[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles 
is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific 
theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and 
speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never can be wavicles, 
only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is 
needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the 
absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all 
possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and 
some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung 
joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations 
are not theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan 
world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly 
disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin

You're an idiot. Please don't reply again on this thread. Apparently, you've 
never heard of something called an electron microscope. AG
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  everyth...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: 
Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:

When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG


Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and 
twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible 
corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).

That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the 
indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, 
amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative 
universal number state in arithmetic.

Bruno






--

.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB47048386532DF8F80851F880A8709%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

https://www.space.com/wave-or-particle-ask-a-spaceman.html
Is electron  Wave or a Particle? It's Both, Sort Of.  .
" What's going on? Electrons are acting LIKE waves when they don't look 
anything like waves. What's doing the waving?"
By Paul Sutter September 30, 2019
Paul M. Sutter is an astrophysicist at The Ohio State University, host of Ask a 
Spaceman and Space Radio, and author of "Your Place in the Universe." Sutter 
contributed this article to Space.com's Expert Voices: Op-Ed & Insights.
"The electron consists of ten wave centers at its core, which are physical 
particles, but what is measured as the electron's energy or mass is its 
standing wave structure. Therefore, it has both particle and wave features.  
... In the 1920s, a young physicist named Louis de Broglie made a radical 
suggestion: Since light has energy, momentum and a wavelength, and matter has 
energy and momentum, maybe matter has a wavelength, too. was de Broglie 
just horribly mistaken?"

everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
[Philip Benjamin]
SORT OF !! Means wave-like not wavy particle.  AS IF Logic, Not Bothe & 
Fallacy.   Acting LIKE waves.  Both electrons and photons have momentum. 
Features do not imply ontological properties. Wave centers at its core are 
physical particles, Electron microscope and photon microscope both are based on 
the BEHAVIOR [not BEING] of particles AS waves. There is a BIG difference 
between BEHAVIOR & BEING. de Broglie was not mistaken. He used the term 
wavelike. Mystics and occultists later substituted it with waviness. Einstein 
NEVER agreed with Bohr's interpretations based on Taoism.
Wrath & anger are no solutions to ontological problems. All true sciences deal 
with epistemology, not ontology.
Philip Benjamin 
   CC. Space.com

[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles 
is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific 
theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and 
speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never can be wavicles, 
only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is 
needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the 
absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all 
possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and 
some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung 
joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations 
are not theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan 
world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly 
disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin

Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  
everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat




-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB4704E5760E8F4090CE74CE05A8729%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-6 medinuclear wrote:

> [*Philip Benjamin*]
>
> Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy 
> particles is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely 
> scientific theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with 
> absurdities and speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never 
> can be wavicles, only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An *AS 
> IF Logic* is all that is needed, not *Both &* Fallacy. The Schrodinger 
> Cat was introduced only to show the absurdity of taking probability 
> statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all possibilities. Some of 
> these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and some other serious 
> addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung joined them. 
> Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations are not 
> theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan world-view, 
> not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly disagreed with 
> Niels Bohr. 
>
> *Philip Benjamin*
>

*You're an idiot. Please don't reply again on this thread. Apparently, 
you've never heard of something called an electron microscope. AG *

> Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  everyth...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* 
> Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>
>  
>
> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
> simultaneously. AG 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state 
> dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction 
> than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>
>  
>
> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will 
> be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure 
> state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In 
> this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same 
> indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite 
> multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
>
>  
>
> Bruno
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
>  
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2F750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%2540googlegroups.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3f851e841ae145b76af908d8fc12d396%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637536505070959887%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EK8%2BBW4w4PEE5qgL55cGqx5wB2AmoBeJArWD7ZC3OEA%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
>  
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%40ulb.ac.be
>  
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2FDA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%2540ulb.ac.be%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3f851e841ae145b76af908d8fc12d396%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637536505070964863%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YSc6XNz3T6hIiPZgx8o%2BWJAYL%2BS9MQuMaDJSrxweQ6Q%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/1686f3f0-463c-4f87-8b2c-ab52eb8c5128n%40googlegroups.com.

RE: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Philip Benjamin]

[Philip Benjamin]
Wave equation? Of what? Wavy Particles? Or Wave-like Particles? Wavy particles 
is a paradox, a puzzle, a mystic mystery!! That is how a purely scientific 
theory such as Quantum Mechanics became so confounded with absurdities and 
speculations. Puzzle in, puzzle out!! There are  and never can be wavicles, 
only particles that behave AS IF in wave forms. An AS IF Logic is all that is 
needed, not Both & Fallacy. The Schrodinger Cat was introduced only to show the 
absurdity of taking probability statistics seriously. Probabilities are not all 
possibilities. Some of these pioneers of QM were occultists, alcoholics and 
some other serious addictions. That is how the sorcerer-psychiatrist Carl Jung 
joined them. Worldviews determine scientific interpretations. Interpretations 
are not theories.  CopenPagan Interpretation (a  malaprop) is a pagan 
world-view, not scientific theory. That is how Albert Einstein strongly 
disagreed with Niels Bohr.
Philip Benjamin
Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:22 AM  
everything-list@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> 
Subject: Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat


On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson 
mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> wrote:

When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. AG


Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and 
twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible 
corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).

That's true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the 
indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, 
amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative 
universal number state in arithmetic.

Bruno







--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2F750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%2540googlegroups.com%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3f851e841ae145b76af908d8fc12d396%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637536505070959887%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EK8%2BBW4w4PEE5qgL55cGqx5wB2AmoBeJArWD7ZC3OEA%3D&reserved=0>.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%40ulb.ac.be<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Feverything-list%2FDA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%2540ulb.ac.be%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dfooter&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3f851e841ae145b76af908d8fc12d396%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637536505070964863%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YSc6XNz3T6hIiPZgx8o%2BWJAYL%2BS9MQuMaDJSrxweQ6Q%3D&reserved=0>.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DM6PR11MB46910528CEDBBA4B1539D971A8729%40DM6PR11MB4691.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

On Saturday, April 10, 2021 at 5:21:46 AM UTC-6 Bruno Marchal wrote:

> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
>
> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
> simultaneously. AG 
>
>
>
> Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state 
> dead+alive, and twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction 
> than any possible corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).
>

*Without any mathematical representation of the individual states of Dead 
and Alive, how can it be claimed that Dead and Alive each satisfy the SWE? 
And how will the superposition of states Dead + Alive give different 
predictions than a mixed state of Dead and Alive? AG *

>
> That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will 
> be lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure 
> state of seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In 
> this case, the indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same 
> indeterminacy occurring in, amoeba self-division, or in the infinite 
> multiplication of all relative universal number state in arithmetic.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a9ae7591-ebb1-482b-a2d4-a07a73ca588dn%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 9 Apr 2021, at 06:42, Alan Grayson  wrote:
> 
> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be claimed 
> that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? Only the 
> latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead simultaneously. 
> AG


Because the Wave equation in this setting leads to a pure state dead+alive, and 
twe know that such pure state leads to different prediction than any possible 
corresponding mixed states. (Assuming the SWE).

That’s true even if the box is open, but in that case, the pure state will be 
lifted to the observer of the cat, who will become itself in a pure state of 
seeing the cat dead and the cat alive, in parallel histories. In this case, the 
indeterminacy is explained entirely by the same indeterminacy occurring in, 
amoeba self-division, or in the infinite multiplication of all relative 
universal number state in arithmetic.

Bruno





> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/750f52a9-1316-47db-9b00-cca531c2b527n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/DA6C2075-1CAE-46E7-87D7-33C2E3DD308D%40ulb.ac.be.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

Can anyone show that either function satisfies the SWE? And if that can be 
shown, the sum will also satisfy the SWE, but is the sum necessarily the 
state the system is in? Can't the mixed state also be the state which the 
system is in? TIA. AG

On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 6:49:55 PM UTC-6 Alan Grayson wrote:

> Alternatively, how does one go from Fermi's Golden Rule, which gives us 
> the probability of radioactive decay at time t from the beginning of 
> observation, to the assertion that a radioactive source is in a 
> superposition of (|Decayed> + |Undecayed>)? What principle of QM is applied 
> to get this result? TIA, AG
>
> On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 10:42:22 PM UTC-6 Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
>> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
>> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
>> simultaneously. AG
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/21635604-6f7c-4fd6-bc66-bd49ac785d99n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: Mixed State vs Superposition of States for Schrodinger's cat

[Alan Grayson]

Alternatively, how does one go from Fermi's Golden Rule, which gives us the 
probability of radioactive decay at time t from the beginning of 
observation, to the assertion that a radioactive source is in a 
superposition of (|Decayed> + |Undecayed>)? What principle of QM is applied 
to get this result? TIA, AG

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 10:42:22 PM UTC-6 Alan Grayson wrote:

> When the box is closed, and before the measurement, why can't it be 
> claimed that the Cat is in a Mixed State, not a Superposition of States? 
> Only the latter leads to the paradox of a cat which is Alive and Dead 
> simultaneously. AG

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/198975ba-d14a-454d-8a6a-76e0efb16523n%40googlegroups.com.