[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ wrote: But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . Which is precisely why treatment will be so difficult, even if he willingly undergoes it. I for one do not believe a word of him checking himself into a mental health care facility. There is a case to be made here for an Indian guy, tired of the responsibilities of wife and children, trying to find an acceptable way of dumping them. In his culture, one of those ways is to declare yourself enlightened. If you do, you now get judged by an entirely different set of standards than anyone else. You get to not only dump your wife and kids without being considered an irrespon- sible asshole for doing so, you get *praised* for doing so, because you're now following your inner voice and dedicating yourself to gurudom and spreading the light. I'm not sure what exactly *is* going on here in the Ravi Incident. All I'm sure of is that the *myth* of enlight- enment and what it means plays a big part in it. Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews -- gave him a platform from which to announce his awakening. Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend* his supposed normal enlightened status rather than be concerned, which they almost certainly would have been given anyone else spouting such craziness. The *secondary* impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout of protect the guru, with any responsibility being not only shifted away from Amma and her organization, but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out love poems for her. And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. I was thinking along these lines also. It also reveals how easily many people are impressed by the experiences of others, in this case Rick. It's in some quarters almost an hysterical awe. As personal experiences grow this naturally fades away. In the home of Maharishi this hysteria would never gain foothold ofcourse as Maharishi would put things into perspectice relatively quickly. Remember the british guy who for years had alsmost 24/7 visions of Krisha ? For days on end he was so raptured in bliss that he had to be fed by his buddy. When he told Maharishi about his visions He laughed and jokingly said B is dreaming again. I don't think Maharishi disapprooved of the expriences or saw them as unreal, only that the fellow should take it easy and spend many more years to stabilize his experiences. Which he eventually certainly did.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
This guys experience, impressed by the experience of others? lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcc3Y642Cv8feature=related From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 23 May, 2010 5:39:36 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 wayback71@ wrote: But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . Which is precisely why treatment will be so difficult, even if he willingly undergoes it. I for one do not believe a word of him checking himself into a mental health care facility. There is a case to be made here for an Indian guy, tired of the responsibilities of wife and children, trying to find an acceptable way of dumping them. In his culture, one of those ways is to declare yourself enlightened. If you do, you now get judged by an entirely different set of standards than anyone else. You get to not only dump your wife and kids without being considered an irrespon- sible asshole for doing so, you get *praised* for doing so, because you're now following your inner voice and dedicating yourself to gurudom and spreading the light. I'm not sure what exactly *is* going on here in the Ravi Incident. All I'm sure of is that the *myth* of enlight- enment and what it means plays a big part in it. Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews -- gave him a platform from which to announce his awakening. Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend* his supposed normal enlightened status rather than be concerned, which they almost certainly would have been given anyone else spouting such craziness. The *secondary* impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout of protect the guru, with any responsibility being not only shifted away from Amma and her organization, but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out love poems for her. And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. I was thinking along these lines also. It also reveals how easily many people are impressed by the experiences of others, in this case Rick. It's in some quarters almost an hysterical awe. As personal experiences grow this naturally fades away. In the home of Maharishi this hysteria would never gain foothold ofcourse as Maharishi would put things into perspectice relatively quickly. Remember the british guy who for years had alsmost 24/7 visions of Krisha ? For days on end he was so raptured in bliss that he had to be fed by his buddy. When he told Maharishi about his visions He laughed and jokingly said B is dreaming again. I don't think Maharishi disapprooved of the expriences or saw them as unreal, only that the fellow should take it easy and spend many more years to stabilize his experiences. Which he eventually certainly did.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: There is a case to be made here for an Indian guy, tired of the responsibilities of wife and children, trying to find an acceptable way of dumping them. In his culture, one of those ways is to declare yourself enlightened. If you do, you now get judged by an entirely different set of standards than anyone else. You get to not only dump your wife and kids without being considered an irrespon- sible asshole for doing so, you get *praised* for doing so, because you're now following your inner voice and dedicating yourself to gurudom and spreading the light. Yes, I think this is it. The long, short and middle of it.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:25 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews -- He's been an intermittent contributor to the Amma chat group (which, like FFL and the TMO, is not affiliated with her organization), and he always seemed reasonable and sane to me. When I started the BatGap chat group, I mentioned it there and he joined. He wasn't an obsessive poster, but he occasionally mentioned an awakening he had had, or was in the process of having, and he seemed genuine and articulate, so I decided to interview him. Keep in mind that from my perspective, there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and I don't consider anyone I've interviewed to have undergone them all, if that's even possible. gave him a platform from which to announce his awakening. Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend* his supposed normal enlightened status rather than be concerned, which they almost certainly would have been given anyone else spouting such craziness. I did? I seldom use the word enlightened. Implies too final an attainment. The *secondary* impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout of protect the guru, with any responsibility being not only shifted away from Amma and her organization, but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out love poems for her. Do you think Amma and her organization should be held responsible for someone like Ravi. If so, explain to me the logistics of how that would work - how the mental health of hundreds of thousands of people could be monitored. As it was, Anatol and I both emailed the head of Amma's US organization, and he said he'd tell Amma. What more should or could have been done? And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. By my definition, a spiritual awakening does not preclude a subsequent mental breakdown. In fact, it may precipitate one if one is unprepared for it. Ravi had done little or no spiritual practice. If this was a Kundalini awakening, and not just a bi-polar episode, he was unprepared for it. His ego appropriated it and went hog-wild.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:32 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer r...@... wrote: On Behalf Of Joe Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Hardly one she would appreciate. Why? Really. I don't think you quite understand the import of what you are saying, Rick. Are you really suggesting that it's *right* for a guru to *keep* their students devoted to them? No. I was implying that I don't think any public figure would appreciate a nut case claiming to be a representative or follower. Amma is very tolerant of such people. She refuses to expel really obnoxious people from her ashram, despite protestations from the majority, but she never reinforces anyone's delusions of grandeur. Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right. As did Maharishi, rejecting and divorcing himself from essentially the entire tradition he had been part of, which would never have allowed him to be a teacher. Seems to me that there is a bit of a double standard going on here... He did? I thought he always emphasized his allegiance to his tradition.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:46 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Joe geezerfr...@... wrote: Yes...now that you mention it, there was that one post from him saying he would eat Amma for lunch and Maharishi for dinner, or words to that effect. But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. I'm open to the possibility that enlightenment is just a stamp of authenticity on certain behavioral disorders. When I spent time around MMY I certainly saw behaviors that would have sent most folks in for some mental retread time. Bingo. That is *exactly* the point I've been trying to make. The much larger issue here is the seeming inability of many people to perceive the claim of enlightenment as in the same ballpark as any other claim made by any other crazy person. *It's all going on in their heads*. ALL of it. But for some people, because they have invested so much of their belief and so much money and so many years of their lives *into* believing that enlightenment is the highest goal, they have to divorce their reaction to Ravi as a fairly obvious crazy person from having any wider implications, and resist taking a critical look at the claims of *other* persons who have made similarly solisistic statements and similar claims in the past. How many of *them* (people revered in the past or the present as enlightened gurus) walked away from the responsibilities of wife and family and got *praised* for it, not badrapped? How many of *them* became as dismissive of those who didn't revere them as Ravi has, and treated them the way he does? How many of *them* had a similar inability to appreciate anyone else's point of view than their own, and consider it valid? My point is that people seem to be stopping at the surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm merely looking at them, and bringing them up for consideration. Not that I think any of these things will actually be considered. In my experience, the allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost always stronger than the allegiance to reality. So are you saying that no one is or has been genuinely enlightened, and that all supposedly enlightened people have been or are guilty of the delusions you mention, or are you saying that many have been, and that it may be hard for many people to sort out the genuine ones from the bogus ones? I ascribe to the latter perspective.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: On Behalf Of TurquoiseB snip My point is that people seem to be stopping at the surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm merely looking at them, and bringing them up for consideration. Not that I think any of these things will actually be considered. In my experience, the allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost always stronger than the allegiance to reality. So are you saying that no one is or has been genuinely enlightened, and that all supposedly enlightened people have been or are guilty of the delusions you mention, or are you saying that many have been, and that it may be hard for many people to sort out the genuine ones from the bogus ones? I ascribe to the latter perspective. Me too, with the caveat that it's not that hard to make the distinction when you're talking about the extreme ends of the spectrum, e.g., Ravi versus Rama Maharshi. It's the ones in the middle who can be difficult to sort out (and there you may well be dealing as much with philosophy and semantics as with clinical distinctions).
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- On Sun, 5/23/10, Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com wrote: From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 1:49 PM From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB As did Maharishi, rejecting and divorcing himself from essentially the entire tradition he had been part of, which would never have allowed him to be a teacher. Seems to me that there is a bit of a double standard going on here... He did? I thought he always emphasized his allegiance to his tradition. I think you could argue that the orthodox tradition of Shankaracharyas felt MMY was doing something wrong. They, perhaps, rejected him, but he never rejected them. Similar to how Maharishi superficially rejected Sri Sri Ravi Shankar (i.e., Meditators should watch out for sweet poison) yet the two remained in close contact and SSRS adores MMY. SSRS said MMY was a Lion of Consciousness. Amen to that!
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten or eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question... Who's Ravi? Love will swallow you, eat you up completely, until there is no `you,' only love. - Amma --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com wrote: From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 1:44 PM From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TurquoiseB Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:25 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews -- He's been an intermittent contributor to the Amma chat group (which, like FFL and the TMO, is not affiliated with her organization), and he always seemed reasonable and sane to me. When I started the BatGap chat group, I mentioned it there and he joined. He wasn't an obsessive poster, but he occasionally mentioned an awakening he had had, or was in the process of having, and he seemed genuine and articulate, so I decided to interview him. Keep in mind that from my perspective, there are many stages or degrees of awakening, and I don't consider anyone I've interviewed to have undergone them all, if that's even possible. gave him a platform from which to announce his awakening. Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend* his supposed normal enlightened status rather than be concerned, which they almost certainly would have been given anyone else spouting such craziness. I did? I seldom use the word enlightened. Implies too final an attainment. The *secondary* impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout of protect the guru, with any responsibility being not only shifted away from Amma and her organization, but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out love poems for her. Do you think Amma and her organization should be held responsible for someone like Ravi. If so, explain to me the logistics of how that would work - how the mental health of hundreds of thousands of people could be monitored. As it was, Anatol and I both emailed the head of Amma's US organization, and he said he'd tell Amma. What more should or could have been done? And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. By my definition, a spiritual awakening does not preclude a subsequent mental breakdown. In fact, it may precipitate one if one is unprepared for it. Ravi had done little or no spiritual practice. If this was a Kundalini awakening, and not just a bi-polar episode, he was unprepared for it. His ego appropriated it and went hog-wild.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of authfriend Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:21 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer r...@... wrote: On Behalf Of TurquoiseB snip My point is that people seem to be stopping at the surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm merely looking at them, and bringing them up for consideration. Not that I think any of these things will actually be considered. In my experience, the allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost always stronger than the allegiance to reality. So are you saying that no one is or has been genuinely enlightened, and that all supposedly enlightened people have been or are guilty of the delusions you mention, or are you saying that many have been, and that it may be hard for many people to sort out the genuine ones from the bogus ones? I ascribe to the latter perspective. Me too, with the caveat that it's not that hard to make the distinction when you're talking about the extreme ends of the spectrum, e.g., Ravi versus Rama Maharshi. It's the ones in the middle who can be difficult to sort out (and there you may well be dealing as much with philosophy and semantics as with clinical distinctions). Good caveat.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gullible fool Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:39 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten or eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question... Who's Ravi? He's a guy who lives in Fremont California. Amma devotee among other things. I interviewed him for BatGap recently. After that he kind of went nuts, proclaiming himself a guru and over posting here so that he's on no-post status now. If you look through the archives you'll see tons of stuff, but a hike in the woods would do you more good.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Rick Archer wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gullible fool Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:39 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula I'm really out of the loop here, what with my last time in ff being only ten or eleven days and exactly ten years ago this month, so one question... Who's Ravi? He's a guy who lives in Fremont California. Amma devotee among other things. I interviewed him for BatGap recently. After that he kind of went nuts, proclaiming himself a guru and over posting here so that he's on no-post status now. If you look through the archives you'll see tons of stuff, but a hike in the woods would do you more good. gully can go to his Twitter account: https://twitter.com/chivukularavi He's also posted a video you can download (it went over 10 minutes couldn't upload it to YouTube). I don't find him much different from any other Indians I've met.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Turq: And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. Rick: I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. I didn't listen to the interview, so I have no idea of the content. But, removing it for the reasons stated sounds a little coddling, if that's the right word. Coddling to Ravi, and coddling to those who visit the site. So, what is the reputation of Batgap. And I say that respectfully, because you have spent a lot of time and energy, and probably money (although I am aware of your wife's requirement about that). But how is the interview going to tarnish the reputation. Thanks.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
lurkernomore20002000 wrote: Turq: And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. Rick: I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. I didn't listen to the interview, so I have no idea of the content. But, removing it for the reasons stated sounds a little coddling, if that's the right word. Coddling to Ravi, and coddling to those who visit the site. So, what is the reputation of Batgap. And I say that respectfully, because you have spent a lot of time and energy, and probably money (although I am aware of your wife's requirement about that). But how is the interview going to tarnish the reputation. Thanks. And especially now after the brouhaha more people probably want to see it. I know I do.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lurkernomore20002000 Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:25 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Turq: And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. Rick: I removed it. I think each interview stands on it's own, but if I were one of the people interviewed, I might feel uncomfortable about being associated with someone who was acting as Ravi has been. In light of Ravi's behavior, I didn't think it appropriate to post his interview, both for the BatGap's reputation and for Ravi's well-being. I don't think it's healthy for him to get any more attention or to have anything reinforce his notion that he is a guru. I didn't listen to the interview, so I have no idea of the content. But, removing it for the reasons stated sounds a little coddling, if that's the right word. Coddling to Ravi, and coddling to those who visit the site. So, what is the reputation of Batgap. And I say that respectfully, because you have spent a lot of time and energy, and probably money (although I am aware of your wife's requirement about that). None, really. I got some donations, which I'm keeping in a PayPal account, to defray expenses. But how is the interview going to tarnish the reputation. Thanks. It's just that I want to maintain a certain quality standard, such that people can listen at random to any of the interviews and find it worth their while. I'm no judge of anyone's level of consciousness, so I don't expect to bat 1000 in choosing my guests, but so far I'd say I'm batting about 900. Once I've taped an interview, I feel somewhat obligated to the guest to air it. I thought Ravi's interview went reasonably well, and this whole brouhaha didn't erupt until a few days or a week after I recorded it. If others really want to watch it, I may put it up, at least for a while. I was thinking that if what happened to Ravi was the result of a kundalini awakening he wasn't able to handle, and was not just the result of bi-polar disorder, it might be interesting to interview an expert in kundalini, such as Joan Harrington: http://www.kundalinicare.com/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sun...@... wrote: I had a conversation with Ravi this evening. I wish him the best in his endeavours. His awakening is such that it seems he is embarking on a new career, that of Raviguru. This is nothing other than what he has been saying of course, but I wanted to hear it straight from him. I remained skeptical that he was really leaving behind family and work life. But this seems to be the case. Pretty much, the answer to any question distlled down to, this is the divine working through Ravi. So, what else is there to say. Ex: Ravi, it sounds like you are going to live the life of wandering mendicant Answer: Yes, the divine will work through Ravi, and let him know what plan the divine has Or something to this effect. Bottom Line: I believe Ravi believes that his awakening will bestow upon him the credibiliy to assume the role of a guru to many seekers. And I think that because he has great saturation with American culture, with all it's nuances that he is uniquely fashioned for this role. This is my report. As counterpart, based on my recent skims of the BATGAP forum, t'would seem that many there felt something off about Ravi, from Day One. The only person who in my reading of the posts seemed impressed by him, and *still* seems to believe that there is not only nothing wrong with him but that he really *is* experiencing a profound awakening was -- wait for it -- Jim Flanegin. Those who have read every post over there can correct me if they feel my skim reading is inaccurate; it very well could be. Some expressed downright concern for Ravi, while Jim pooh-poohed their concerns. And these are people who are *conditioned* to see enlight- enment where others see merely confusion and solipsism. While I thank you for your report, based on my experience of seeing people have a minor awakening and set them- selves up as gurus without the wherewithall to be one, I'm predicting Ravi's eventual suicide. That seems to be what *happens* to such people. When their fantasies of who they really are and how they should be really treated by people around them don't work out, they take the I'll show them route and leave them -- and the world that just doesn't understand how special they are -- behind. I'm not *hoping* for such an outcome, but I for one would not be surprised by it. And if it happens, I think I can safely predict Jim coming up with a hearty It's all good about *that*, too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula - Minor, Important Adjustment
you didnt think it best to advise him to seek the help of a mental health professional? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sun...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: I had a conversation with Ravi this evening. I wish him the best in his endeavours. His awakening is such that it seems he is embarking on a new career, that of Raviguru. This is nothing other than what he has been saying of course, but I wanted to hear it straight from him. I remained skeptical that he was really leaving behind family and work life. But this seems to be the case. Pretty much, the answer to any question distlled down to, this is the divine working through Ravi. So, what else is there to say. Ex: Ravi, it sounds like you are going to live the life of wandering mendicant Answer: Yes, the divine will work through Ravi, and let him know what plan the divine has Or something to this effect. Bottom Line: I believe Ravi believes that his awakening will bestow upon him the credibiliy to assume the role of a guru to many seekers. And I think he feels that because he has great saturation with American culture, with all it's nuances that he is uniquely fashioned for this role. This is my report.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula - Minor, Important Adjustment
Well, you can imagine that it was pretty lopsided conversation with one party doing most of the talking, and the other party doing most of the listeneing. My main advice to him was that if he calls himself a simple brahman, to live the life of a simple brahman. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukr...@... wrote: you didnt think it best to advise him to seek the help of a mental health professional? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: I had a conversation with Ravi this evening. I wish him the best in his endeavours. His awakening is such that it seems he is embarking on a new career, that of Raviguru. This is nothing other than what he has been saying of course, but I wanted to hear it straight from him. I remained skeptical that he was really leaving behind family and work life. But this seems to be the case. Pretty much, the answer to any question distlled down to, this is the divine working through Ravi. So, what else is there to say. Ex: Ravi, it sounds like you are going to live the life of wandering mendicant Answer: Yes, the divine will work through Ravi, and let him know what plan the divine has Or something to this effect. Bottom Line: I believe Ravi believes that his awakening will bestow upon him the credibiliy to assume the role of a guru to many seekers. And I think he feels that because he has great saturation with American culture, with all it's nuances that he is uniquely fashioned for this role. This is my report.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Jim always had a perverse rationale about such events and situations. Remember, Jim also wanted the same Reverence and exalted GuruStatus as Ravi. I also wouldn't be surprised at all, if Jim said It's all good if Ravi met with a disaster. --- On Sat, 5/22/10, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Date: Saturday, May 22, 2010, 12:24 AM As counterpart, based on my recent skims of the BATGAP forum, t'would seem that many there felt something off about Ravi, from Day One. The only person who in my reading of the posts seemed impressed by him, and *still* seems to believe that there is not only nothing wrong with him but that he really *is* experiencing a profound awakening was -- wait for it -- Jim Flanegin. Those who have read every post over there can correct me if they feel my skim reading is inaccurate; it very well could be. Some expressed downright concern for Ravi, while Jim pooh-poohed their concerns. And these are people who are *conditioned* to see enlight- enment where others see merely confusion and solipsism. While I thank you for your report, based on my experience of seeing people have a minor awakening and set them- selves up as gurus without the wherewithall to be one, I'm predicting Ravi's eventual suicide. That seems to be what *happens* to such people. When their fantasies of who they really are and how they should be really treated by people around them don't work out, they take the I'll show them route and leave them -- and the world that just doesn't understand how special they are -- behind. I'm not *hoping* for such an outcome, but I for one would not be surprised by it. And if it happens, I think I can safely predict Jim coming up with a hearty It's all good about *that*, too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason jedi_sp...@... wrote: Jim always had a perverse rationale about such events and situations. Remember, Jim also wanted the same Reverence and exalted GuruStatus as Ravi. I also wouldn't be surprised at all, if Jim said It's all good if Ravi met with a disaster. --- On Sat, 5/22/10, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Date: Saturday, May 22, 2010, 12:24 AM As counterpart, based on my recent skims of the BATGAP forum, t'would seem that many there felt something off about Ravi, from Day One. The only person who in my reading of the posts seemed impressed by him, and *still* seems to believe that there is not only nothing wrong with him but that he really *is* experiencing a profound awakening was -- wait for it -- Jim Flanegin. Those who have read every post over there can correct me if they feel my skim reading is inaccurate; it very well could be. Some expressed downright concern for Ravi, while Jim pooh-poohed their concerns. And these are people who are *conditioned* to see enlight- enment where others see merely confusion and solipsism. While I thank you for your report, based on my experience of seeing people have a minor awakening and set them- selves up as gurus without the wherewithall to be one, I'm predicting Ravi's eventual suicide. That seems to be what *happens* to such people. When their fantasies of who they really are and how they should be really treated by people around them don't work out, they take the I'll show them route and leave them -- and the world that just doesn't understand how special they are -- behind. I'm not *hoping* for such an outcome, but I for one would not be surprised by it. And if it happens, I think I can safely predict Jim coming up with a hearty It's all good about *that*, too. But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment .
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wayback71 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . That's what I was thinking. But it turns out Ravi isn't in a hospital in Missouri. He's still in Massachusetts and was BSing everyone about the hospital.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
i got a nice email from him just now; seems like Amma is Blessing him and Guiding him back to health; lets keep praying hoping intending, whatever your way is, that that is the case amarnath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVr6TIIlOQU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVr6TIIlOQU --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wayback71 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . That's what I was thinking. But it turns out Ravi isn't in a hospital in Missouri. He's still in Massachusetts and was BSing everyone about the hospital.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wayback71 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . That's what I was thinking. But it turns out Ravi isn't in a hospital in Missouri. He's still in Massachusetts and was BSing everyone about the hospital. oh. that kind of puts a damper on the whole treatment idea
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 waybac...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wayback71 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . That's what I was thinking. But it turns out Ravi isn't in a hospital in Missouri. He's still in Massachusetts and was BSing everyone about the hospital. oh. that kind of puts a damper on the whole treatment idea
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Hardly one she would appreciate. Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Yes...now that you mention it, there was that one post from him saying he would eat Amma for lunch and Maharishi for dinner, or words to that effect. But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. I'm open to the possibility that enlightenment is just a stamp of authenticity on certain behavioral disorders. When I spent time around MMY I certainly saw behaviors that would have sent most folks in for some mental retread time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Hardly one she would appreciate. Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Rick: Hardly one she would appreciate. Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right. in an earlier post authfriend make this observation: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: Something to bear in mind is that certain kinds of psychosis can generate mystical experiences on their own. Ravi's plight may or may not have anything directly to do with Amma's shakti. If he's bipolar, as some of us suspect, this would likely have happened anyway. I could be very wrong, but I doubt he's just fragile. I'd be willing to bet he's been struggling with it for years and has refused to get treatment. Manic episodes are usually temporary, and the person can appear quite normal in between. But if they're not treated, the episodes tend to get progressively worse. Authfriend makes some excellent points above and most likely more or less correct concerning Ravi's situation. And it would be good if someone in a position to do so could help him get treatment.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of anatol_zinc Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:42 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Authfriend makes some excellent points above and most likely more or less correct concerning Ravi's situation. And it would be good if someone in a position to do so could help him get treatment. Family and friends are probably trying to get him some, but as long as he thinks he's superior to everyone else, it's unlikely they'll be able to. Unless he gets so bad that he can be forced into treatment. Dr. Pete could tell us how bad that has to be.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anatol_zinc anatol_z...@... wrote: snip in an earlier post authfriend make this observation: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Something to bear in mind is that certain kinds of psychosis can generate mystical experiences on their own. Ravi's plight may or may not have anything directly to do with Amma's shakti. If he's bipolar, as some of us suspect, this would likely have happened anyway. I could be very wrong, but I doubt he's just fragile. I'd be willing to bet he's been struggling with it for years and has refused to get treatment. Manic episodes are usually temporary, and the person can appear quite normal in between. But if they're not treated, the episodes tend to get progressively worse. Authfriend makes some excellent points above and most likely more or less correct concerning Ravi's situation. Bear in mind that Peter has said he thinks it's paranoid schizophrenia, not bipolar disorder, and he's the professional.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Joe geezerfr...@... wrote: snip But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. Paranoid schizophrenia is a psychosis, not a borderline behavioral disorder. Still can be a fine line, though.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
Right, my wife is a licensed behavioral therapist, not me, so my terms might not be quite right. However, I really do wonder about this fine line. Could it be that enlightenment is nothing more than sanctioned and approved paranoid schizophrenia? If so, did we pay a lot of money and spend a lot of time rounding in hopes of programming ourselves into a permanent state of paranoid schizophrenia? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Joe geezerfreak@ wrote: snip But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. Paranoid schizophrenia is a psychosis, not a borderline behavioral disorder. Still can be a fine line, though.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Joe geezerfr...@... wrote: Right, my wife is a licensed behavioral therapist, not me, so my terms might not be quite right. However, I really do wonder about this fine line. Could it be that enlightenment is nothing more than sanctioned and approved paranoid schizophrenia? If so, did we pay a lot of money and spend a lot of time rounding in hopes of programming ourselves into a permanent state of paranoid schizophrenia? Naah. Although if one were predisposed to it, I suspect it could be triggered by long rounding. On the other hand, it would probably develop at some point anyway. (Check with Peter on that--he's the professional.) But when you say sanctioned and approved, that gets to an important issue--to what degree is what we call mental illness simply a different way of experiencing and responding to the world? To what degree is the dysfunction of individuals diagnosed with mental illness simply a matter of this difference in experience and response? Are people who experience the world differently but who function very well the ones we think of as enlightened? Should people who are perfectly happy wth the way they experience the world, even if it's starkly different from the way most people do, even if it appears dysfunctional, be considered mentally ill? Or are they mentally ill only if they're in distress? It gets all tangled up with philosophy and semantics and a person's subjective experience versus how the person appears to others. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Joe geezerfreak@ wrote: snip But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. Paranoid schizophrenia is a psychosis, not a borderline behavioral disorder. Still can be a fine line, though.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 waybac...@... wrote: But if Ravi is plain old seriously manic, and then gets good treatment and maintains it, then all this guru stuff will seem wild to him, too. In fact, if he gets well, he will understand why he felt that way but also recognize that it was totally unreal and part of the illness. He will hope that people can forget or forgive his wildness and wish that he had not broadcast his instability so far and wide. He won't be insisting on being a guru anymore and he won't feel like one, either, dull as that may be. Let's hope he gets good treatment . Which is precisely why treatment will be so difficult, even if he willingly undergoes it. I for one do not believe a word of him checking himself into a mental health care facility. There is a case to be made here for an Indian guy, tired of the responsibilities of wife and children, trying to find an acceptable way of dumping them. In his culture, one of those ways is to declare yourself enlightened. If you do, you now get judged by an entirely different set of standards than anyone else. You get to not only dump your wife and kids without being considered an irrespon- sible asshole for doing so, you get *praised* for doing so, because you're now following your inner voice and dedicating yourself to gurudom and spreading the light. I'm not sure what exactly *is* going on here in the Ravi Incident. All I'm sure of is that the *myth* of enlight- enment and what it means plays a big part in it. Rick -- and he's still never told us how he came to hear about Ravi and choose him for one of his interviews -- gave him a platform from which to announce his awakening. Rick's -- and others' -- first impulse was to *defend* his supposed normal enlightened status rather than be concerned, which they almost certainly would have been given anyone else spouting such craziness. The *secondary* impulse we've been seeing here, in my opinion, is a bout of protect the guru, with any responsibility being not only shifted away from Amma and her organization, but taking it as an opportunity to write bhaktied-out love poems for her. And now Ravi's interview has quietly been disappeared from the list, so as not to somehow cast questions upon the other interviews, and on the whole concept of ordinary enlightenment. I'm pointing these things out because no one else is. I think this whole Ravi thing is very, very sad. But I think that what it's bringing out in some of the believers in enlightenment as the highest goal at the end of the highest path is in ways sadder. Where is the point at which people sit back and say, Now wait a minute...if *this* guy could convince so many of his supposed 'enlightenment,' how many *others* in the long history of spirituality have done exactly the same thing? Could they *all* have been nothing but charismatic manic depressives? A critical view of such things is not IMO out of line. It provides a *balance* between unthinking belief and unthinking dismissal. I still believe that such a thing as enlightenment exists. But I don't believe that it either 1) confers any innate instant respectability as a guru on those claiming it, or 2) is important enough to pay very much attention to. Those who feel that #2 is wrong and that it *should* be paid attention to as the remarkable achievement it is seen to be the ones getting their buttons pushed in all of this. Just as if Ravi got help and was able to see that much of his raving was *just* raving and not something holy, anyone watching that happen from the sidelines would see the same thing. And a lot of people have IMO so much *invested* in the traditional descriptions of enlightenment and what it means that they don't want that to happen. Just my opinion...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer r...@... wrote: On Behalf Of Joe Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Hardly one she would appreciate. Why? Really. I don't think you quite understand the import of what you are saying, Rick. Are you really suggesting that it's *right* for a guru to *keep* their students devoted to them? Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right. As did Maharishi, rejecting and divorcing himself from essentially the entire tradition he had been part of, which would never have allowed him to be a teacher. Seems to me that there is a bit of a double standard going on here...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Joe geezerfr...@... wrote: Yes...now that you mention it, there was that one post from him saying he would eat Amma for lunch and Maharishi for dinner, or words to that effect. But you know, the whole episode brings up a topic that has long fascinated me; and that is the very fine line that separates so-called enlightenment from borderline behavioral disorders such as paranoid schizophrenia. I'm open to the possibility that enlightenment is just a stamp of authenticity on certain behavioral disorders. When I spent time around MMY I certainly saw behaviors that would have sent most folks in for some mental retread time. Bingo. That is *exactly* the point I've been trying to make. The much larger issue here is the seeming inability of many people to perceive the claim of enlightenment as in the same ballpark as any other claim made by any other crazy person. *It's all going on in their heads*. ALL of it. But for some people, because they have invested so much of their belief and so much money and so many years of their lives *into* believing that enlightenment is the highest goal, they have to divorce their reaction to Ravi as a fairly obvious crazy person from having any wider implications, and resist taking a critical look at the claims of *other* persons who have made similarly solisistic statements and similar claims in the past. How many of *them* (people revered in the past or the present as enlightened gurus) walked away from the responsibilities of wife and family and got *praised* for it, not badrapped? How many of *them* became as dismissive of those who didn't revere them as Ravi has, and treated them the way he does? How many of *them* had a similar inability to appreciate anyone else's point of view than their own, and consider it valid? My point is that people seem to be stopping at the surface of this whole tempest in a pisspot, and not looking beneath the surface at its implications. I'm merely looking at them, and bringing them up for consideration. Not that I think any of these things will actually be considered. In my experience, the allegiance to a long-held set of beliefs is almost always stronger than the allegiance to reality. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fairfieldl...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:03 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula Yep, you wonder just how much of the whole story is bullshit and what isn't. Could it be some kind of over-the-top weird devotional to Amma? A very poor advertisement if so. Hardly one she would appreciate. Many of his posts, including in the Amma chat, proclaim his independence from her and his new status as guru in his own right.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Conversation with Mr. Chivukula - Minor, Important Adjustment
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sun...@... wrote: I had a conversation with Ravi this evening. I wish him the best in his endeavours. His awakening is such that it seems he is embarking on a new career, that of Raviguru. This is nothing other than what he has been saying of course, but I wanted to hear it straight from him. I remained skeptical that he was really leaving behind family and work life. But this seems to be the case. Pretty much, the answer to any question distlled down to, this is the divine working through Ravi. So, what else is there to say. Ex: Ravi, it sounds like you are going to live the life of wandering mendicant Answer: Yes, the divine will work through Ravi, and let him know what plan the divine has Or something to this effect. Bottom Line: I believe Ravi believes that his awakening will bestow upon him the credibiliy to assume the role of a guru to many seekers. And I think he feels that because he has great saturation with American culture, with all it's nuances that he is uniquely fashioned for this role. This is my report.
