[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
That sounds nice ! It could be something like this ? http://tinyurl.com/ou8o9ol http://tinyurl.com/ou8o9ol http://fortscott.olx.com/1994-airstream-land-yacht-class-a-34ft-in-fort-scott-ks-iid-440066365 Bon voyage !
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Similar, though that one looks a bit older. Same idea - a home on wheels - Thanks! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: That sounds nice ! It could be something like this ? http://tinyurl.com/ou8o9ol http://tinyurl.com/ou8o9ol http://fortscott.olx.com/1994-airstream-land-yacht-class-a-34ft-in-fort-scott-ks-iid-440066365 Bon voyage !
Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Steve, I think Richard also calls them informants! (-: I think it's David Spiro in case someone wants to google him. On Friday, January 24, 2014 7:12 AM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up. If these same students try to give a lecture or write a story that is peppered with the jargon they've come to be so familiar with that they don't even *notice* when they're using it, then they often lose their audience. If every other word is karma this, or dosa that, or purusha somethingorother, all interjected with no definitions of the terms, IMO the storyteller is *limiting* his audience. And in most cases, losing them. They've been *excluded*, because they don't know the jargon the writer is using. Michael's tale wasn't exclusionary; it was inclusive. He used ordinary language, the way he heard it spoken around him at the time, and he used it well to weave a story that said Ya'll come on in, now. Sit yerselves down while I make us some icetea. One of the things I'm most grateful to the Fred Lenz - Rama guy for is for his command of the English language and how to use it. He taught that skill explicitly in his talks to his students, and he demonstrated it in his own public talks. Some of Rama's students liked the talks he'd give where he got into really esoteric or occult shit, subjects that really did require some jargon and were obviously only for my students. I liked his intro lectures. The esoteric talks, given to students who all knew Jargon As A Second Language, were great because he could skip the definitions and use just the jargon as shorthand, and as a time-saver. He could get into some really, really interesting subjects in these just for students talks. But it was the intro lectures that were High Art. There, he'd get into the *same* interesting subjects, only this time using metaphors like going to the movies and going to work and stuff like that, things that people knew and identified with. His intros were
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Steve, your comment about indulging eventually becoming a lot reminds me of something D passed on from his teacher: that maintaining sattva in Brahmin is crucial. It sounds like that teacher leads a sattvic if somewhat reclusive life. He is also talking about 3 stages of Brahman: basic, refined and wholeness or holiness. And 2 possible GCs: impersonal and personal. Westerners tend towards the former according to him. Maharishi explained that knowledge can lead to better experiences the next time. I'd say it's key to have reliable knowledge and or just go with what resonates with one's own experience. On Friday, January 24, 2014 9:23 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, I say this for Michael's benefit mostly, and I've mentioned this before. I read the transcripts of two interviews with Fred Lenz, aka Rama, and I was most impressed with them. And that's a capital M. I believe the second interview was sometime into the whole affair, and my perception was - in the first interview, the silver was polished with a high sheen. In the second interview, it was still silver, but had just gotten a little tarnished. On the other hand, Ithink you see that a lot in spiritual teachers. They work hard to get to a certain level of spiritual development, and gain a level of freedom that comes with it, and then decide, why not (indulge a little). And then maybe a little becomes a lot. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. I know how you feel. Especially the new knowledge suddenly, overnight being the everyday reality of the people who've just heard it the day before thang. If Maharishi had suddenly announced DC (Dweezil Consciousness, y'know...higher than all the rest) they'd immediately be able to discourse knowingly about DC and what it's like to be there. Just for the edification of us rubes who (sadly) aren't there yet, of course. :-) You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. Don't know him. I've certainly seen the same thing in many orgs, both in the teachers and in their students. It's more forgivable IMO in the students. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. And maybe the self they no longer have just wants to be appreciated for Having Arrived at selflessness. :-) The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. I haven't seen it, and haven't had very many experiences of that sort myself. The most powerful ones were with birds of prey. They just lock eyes with you and won't look away, and if you hold that gaze you (or at least I) can convince yourself that you're getting a hit on what they're thinking, and how they think. I've seen a weird thing around the Rama guy that I have no explanation for. To me it feels a lot like how he described it -- transmission. What would happen was that we'd be late into a center meeting or out in the desert in the wee hours of the night, after literally hours of meditation and talks, and he'd just say Watch. Then he'd either meditate, or dance around, or whatever, with no setup. Often there would be no subsequent explanation, only a passing That was a new teaching. Afterwards, as I walked around and overheard students talking amongst themselves on the break of after the gathering, I'd lurk and listen to what they were saying. Often -- and often to my surprise -- they were describing the same experiences I would have. And using the same language. It was (subjectively) as if packets of data had been downloaded to each of us, silently. It was just the damnedest thing, and as I say I can't explain how it happened, only that it did, with some frequency. ---In
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
So far, so good! Thanks ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Jim, thanks for your reply. I understand what you are saying. And I gotta say, it sounds like you've got a damn fine plan! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hey Steve - yeah, I am grateful that I am able to find people, from time to time, with whom I can discuss my experiences. I don't do it simply to hear different perspectives, or flavors, but, rather as a quicker way to learn about something, and make progress. Simply that it is another person, having similar enough experiences that they can be compared, is a fantastic way, for me, to clear up misconceptions or questions that creep up into anything. The duration is far shorter, but I get equally excited when I learn how to clean out a gas burner tube, fix a plumbing leak, rewire a circuit, or install a solar panel. Life is just so mind blowingly cool, and everything about it. I am a constant sponge for knowledge and experience, and learning, and always have been. My latest adventure involves RVing in a Class A 34 ft rig - Fun as fuck!! and you can quote me on that. Now that I know how to operate it, after a shake-out trip, I soon leave for a primitive campsite in the mountains for two weeks, carrying all my water food, fuel and all the comforts of home, except for cell, internet and tv (no problem-o) . I am writing my life story, and it is time to get started, with future sojourns in mind. Anyway, my point is, as a life goal, I really enjoy going after that 200 percent of life thing MMY talked about; 100% inside (Moksha) and 100% outside (Unity). The fun is blending it all together, while continuing to learn, live and grow, without any apparent limits to what can be achieved; just have to watch out for the thorns on the roses sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Good points Jim. And I think that perhaps I need to be a little more open minded because for me, I can't understand why anyone would really even want to talk about those experiences. I feel that I have some nice experiences too, but it's not really anything I'd want to share, ala Judy's point. But maybe because you and David are more established in those higher states of consciousness, you find value in discussing them, and it helps you in your understanding. I will say Jim, that you said something recently that stuck with me, because it has been my experience, and MO for a long time. That is, meditation along with introspection and an effect to ferret out our flaws, is a real key to progress. Now just for fun, I guess you could say, that ego confronting maya, and separating the non self from the transcendental self is the key to attaining Moksha. Oh well. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ...something I notice on the Batgap chat siteI have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had Hey Steve - Maharishi was speaking from his own experience when he described his 7 states (which he amended to include life in Brahman as a further expression of enlightenment). The discussions I have with one other person on BatGap are in the context of how well, or not, our experience matches the descriptions of various states, as Brahman is inclusive of all of them. In that context, I find that the language used can sometimes sound like jargon, simply because everyone [having the discussion] already understands the experience of CC, or GC or UC. Nonetheless, I have discovered a lot by comparing notes. For example, through these discussions, it has become evident to me, that GC does not necessarily evolve from CC, as UC does, but is rather an expression more of subtle emotional development, vs. expansion of consciousness. I am really not sure what your beef is, except that you were possibly hoping for descriptions, put a different way, so that they would be more useful to your future achievement of them. However, if you simply follow the discussion for what it is - two people clarifying and discussing experiences, you won't get bored so quickly. Last, the only way you are going to get clarification of something, on the BatGap site, is to put on your big-boy pants and actually ask a question, or make a statement. Hope this helps. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say,
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Turq you were asking here for 'Spiritual' in common words; well yes anything that reveals in experience the absolute bliss consciousness of the transcendent in life. A transcendentalist. That is different from just common dabbling spiritists or ideological religionists, philosophers or just a classroom physicist. Have a nice meditation today, -Buck in the Dome
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
I'm thinking along the same lines but more for being able to have a home while travelling doing photography. Simple but effective way of getting to places one otherwise wouldn't see. For sadhana a cabin in the mountains is better. Do post a picture of your vehicle if you feel like it :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Turq you were asking here for 'Spiritual' in common words; well yes anything that reveals in experience the absolute bliss consciousness of the transcendent in life. A transcendentalist. That is different from just common dabbling spiritists or ideological religionists, philosophers or just a classroom physicist. Have a nice meditation today, -Buck in the Dome The words highlighted in red above are ALL jargon and buzzwords that mean absolutely nothing to the person who has not 1) encountered them before, and/or 2) gives them a different meaning than you do or the TMO does. In other words, you're still trying NOT to communicate. Don't you EVER get tired of being such an elitist?
Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Yes, David Spiro. Those particular mannerisms always give me a chuckle. And I have to say, you often see that particular mannerism from those who have branched off from the TMO organization. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote: Steve, I think Richard also calls them informants! (-: I think it's David Spiro in case someone wants to google him. On Friday, January 24, 2014 7:12 AM, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up. If these same students try to give a lecture or write a story that is peppered with the jargon they've come to be so familiar with that they don't even *notice* when they're using it, then they often lose their audience. If every other word is karma this, or dosa that, or purusha somethingorother, all interjected with no definitions of the terms, IMO the storyteller is *limiting* his audience. And in most cases, losing them. They've been *excluded*, because they don't know the jargon the writer is using. Michael's tale wasn't exclusionary; it was inclusive. He used ordinary language, the way he heard it spoken around him at the time, and he used it well to weave a story that said Ya'll come on in, now. Sit yerselves down while I make us some icetea. One of the things I'm most grateful to the Fred Lenz - Rama guy for is for his command of the English language and how to use it. He taught that skill explicitly in his talks to his students, and he demonstrated it in his own public talks. Some of Rama's students liked the talks he'd give where he got into really esoteric or occult shit, subjects that really did require some jargon and were obviously only for my students. I liked his intro lectures. The esoteric talks, given to students who all knew Jargon As A Second Language, were great because he could skip the definitions and use just the jargon as shorthand, and as a time-saver. He could get into some really, really interesting subjects in these just for students talks. But
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Well, speaking of D, I have always found his comments, discourses, blog, to be very genuine. Even if I can't really follow the intricacies. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote: Steve, your comment about indulging eventually becoming a lot reminds me of something D passed on from his teacher: that maintaining sattva in Brahmin is crucial. It sounds like that teacher leads a sattvic if somewhat reclusive life. He is also talking about 3 stages of Brahman: basic, refined and wholeness or holiness. And 2 possible GCs: impersonal and personal. Westerners tend towards the former according to him. Maharishi explained that knowledge can lead to better experiences the next time. I'd say it's key to have reliable knowledge and or just go with what resonates with one's own experience. On Friday, January 24, 2014 9:23 PM, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote: Well, I say this for Michael's benefit mostly, and I've mentioned this before. I read the transcripts of two interviews with Fred Lenz, aka Rama, and I was most impressed with them. And that's a capital M. I believe the second interview was sometime into the whole affair, and my perception was - in the first interview, the silver was polished with a high sheen. In the second interview, it was still silver, but had just gotten a little tarnished. On the other hand, Ithink you see that a lot in spiritual teachers. They work hard to get to a certain level of spiritual development, and gain a level of freedom that comes with it, and then decide, why not (indulge a little). And then maybe a little becomes a lot. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. I know how you feel. Especially the new knowledge suddenly, overnight being the everyday reality of the people who've just heard it the day before thang. If Maharishi had suddenly announced DC (Dweezil Consciousness, y'know...higher than all the rest) they'd immediately be able to discourse knowingly about DC and what it's like to be there. Just for the edification of us rubes who (sadly) aren't there yet, of course. :-) You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. Don't know him. I've certainly seen the same thing in many orgs, both in the teachers and in their students. It's more forgivable IMO in the students. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. And maybe the self they no longer have just wants to be appreciated for Having Arrived at selflessness. :-) The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. I haven't seen it, and haven't had very many experiences of that sort myself. The most powerful ones were with birds of prey. They just lock eyes with you and won't look away, and if you hold that gaze you (or at least I) can convince yourself that you're getting a hit on what they're thinking, and how they think. I've seen a weird thing around the Rama guy that I have no explanation for. To me it feels a lot like how he described it -- transmission. What would happen was that we'd be late into a center meeting or out in the desert in the wee hours of the night, after literally hours of meditation and talks, and he'd just say Watch. Then he'd either meditate, or dance around, or whatever, with no setup. Often there would be no subsequent explanation, only a passing That was a new teaching. Afterwards, as I walked around and overheard students talking amongst themselves on the break of after the gathering, I'd lurk and listen to what they were saying. Often -- and often to my surprise -- they were describing the same experiences I would have. And using the same language. It was (subjectively) as if packets
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Yes, David Spiro. Those particular mannerisms always give me a chuckle. And I have to say, you often see that particular mannerism from those who have branched off from the TMO organization. It's almost as laughable as those who post the same old putdown macros to the Internet day in and day out for almost twenty years trying to claim that there is anything creative about them. :-) Think how SAD it is for someone to be so terrified of people critiquing their creative writing that they've spent an entire lifetime avoiding even *trying* it. Most people would consider that a wasted life. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@ wrote: Steve, I think Richard also calls them informants! (-: I think it's David Spiro in case someone wants to google him. On Friday, January 24, 2014 7:12 AM, steve.sundur@ steve.sundur@ wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@ wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up. If these same students try to give a lecture or write a story that is peppered with the jargon they've come to be so familiar with that they don't even *notice* when they're using it, then they often lose their audience. If every other word is karma this, or dosa that, or purusha somethingorother, all interjected with no definitions of the terms, IMO the storyteller is *limiting* his audience. And in most cases, losing them. They've been *excluded*, because they don't know the jargon the writer is using. Michael's tale wasn't exclusionary; it was inclusive. He used ordinary language, the way he heard it spoken around him at the time, and he used it well to weave a story that said Ya'll come on in, now. Sit yerselves down while I make us some icetea. One of the things I'm most grateful to the Fred Lenz - Rama guy for is for his command of the English language and how to use it. He taught that skill explicitly in his talks to his students, and he demonstrated it in his own public talks. Some of Rama's students liked the talks he'd give where he got into really esoteric or occult shit, subjects that
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
For me, I would say Jim's plan is better than sadhana in a cabin. I think I would got batty pretty quickly. Now, I will say, that after a time of roaming, (which sounds really good), I might want to take a solitary sojourn in a cabin. Also, two weeks might be the very longest I could envision in solitude, at least at present. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: I'm thinking along the same lines but more for being able to have a home while travelling doing photography. Simple but effective way of getting to places one otherwise wouldn't see. For sadhana a cabin in the mountains is better. Do post a picture of your vehicle if you feel like it :-)
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Actually, the idea with a rig like that is to drive to a location and move in, for the duration - put down the hydraulic leveling jacks, extend the slide-out; instant home sweet home. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: For me, I would say Jim's plan is better than sadhana in a cabin. I think I would got batty pretty quickly. Now, I will say, that after a time of roaming, (which sounds really good), I might want to take a solitary sojourn in a cabin. Also, two weeks might be the very longest I could envision in solitude, at least at present. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: I'm thinking along the same lines but more for being able to have a home while travelling doing photography. Simple but effective way of getting to places one otherwise wouldn't see. For sadhana a cabin in the mountains is better. Do post a picture of your vehicle if you feel like it :-)
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
During my first time out, I did a photo shoot among the coastal marsh and dunes, in the early morning fog. Took about 120 images, in an hour! Yes, it is an awesome way to travel, in a self-contained way. I have 75 gallons of fresh water, a 25 gallon propane tank, and a 50 amp generator, that runs off the 100 gallon gas tank. Motorhome 1: https://app.box.com/s/avf0zvuxxh6a2rbmyb47 https://app.box.com/s/avf0zvuxxh6a2rbmyb47 Motorhome 2: https://app.box.com/s/weuvx0od0gynugrgonbf https://app.box.com/s/weuvx0od0gynugrgonbf Coastal dunes: https://app.box.com/s/f7j3l291glbxzfxmyv0w https://app.box.com/s/f7j3l291glbxzfxmyv0w Coastal marsh: https://app.box.com/s/520fqw9n83hfqofj52yy https://app.box.com/s/520fqw9n83hfqofj52yy Sunset: https://app.box.com/s/64dqusn91un2bkl68vlh https://app.box.com/s/64dqusn91un2bkl68vlh ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: I'm thinking along the same lines but more for being able to have a home while travelling doing photography. Simple but effective way of getting to places one otherwise wouldn't see. For sadhana a cabin in the mountains is better. Do post a picture of your vehicle if you feel like it :-)
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Sounds nice :-) Mountains, deserts, ocean ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Steve, ask him whether he has an actual person in mind, or whether he just made all that up. ;-) It's almost as laughable as those who post the same old putdown macros to the Internet day in and day out for almost twenty years trying to claim that there is anything creative about them. :-) Think how SAD it is for someone to be so terrified of people critiquing their creative writing that they've spent an entire lifetime avoiding even *trying* it. Most people would consider that a wasted life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
That was pretty basic and essential spirituality. Lurking and Listening in at some point ignorant folks just have to step up and improve themselves if they are really wanting to participate further beyond the introductory lecture. It is true in most any discussion and not everyone needs to participate in every open discussion though they can certainly listen and may be even learn something that was undefined for them before and that they had not known before as rank beginners. If you don't know something about something then everything is jargon as you enter in. Get over it. More than hoping to be spoon-fed take some initiative and read the footnotes for your own Self improvement so as to join in further intelligent conversation. In this case, stop being a sophist and actually meditate if you want to know spirituality. It is certainly not up to every spiritual person to do your own homework on this. You are just making stoopid busy-work here for the real spiritual people here otherwise with this semantic stuff of yours. Have a nice day, -Buck ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Turq you were asking here for 'Spiritual' in common words; well yes anything that reveals in experience the absolute bliss consciousness of the transcendent in life. A transcendentalist. That is different from just common dabbling spiritists or ideological religionists, philosophers or just a classroom physicist. Have a nice meditation today, -Buck in the Dome The words highlighted in red above are ALL jargon and buzzwords that mean absolutely nothing to the person who has not 1) encountered them before, and/or 2) gives them a different meaning than you do or the TMO does. In other words, you're still trying NOT to communicate. Don't you EVER get tired of being such an elitist?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Do I have to use the highlighter again to point out what you *really* think of the people you're preaching to, Buck? The only people on this forum who consistently look down on others as much as you do are Nabby and Doctordumbass. I suggest another way of interpreting your (and those people's) use of jargon. It's to *intentionally* make people feel as if they're your inferiors. That's the way that you keep pretending that you're superior. Just look at what you wrote below, Buck. You *literally* believe that anyone who doesn't think the way you do is ignorant, that they *have* to improve themselves before they can participate in any discussion with you, that they're rank beginners, and that above all they *need* self-improvement before they can join your intelligent conversation and be one of the spiritual people. If this is what you consider intelligent, *no wonder* so few people respond to your diatribes. Who would want to discuss anything with an elitist asshole like you? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: That was pretty basic and essential spirituality. Lurking and Listening in at some point ignorant folks just have to step up and improve themselves if they are really wanting to participate further beyond the introductory lecture. It is true in most any discussion and not everyone needs to participate in every open discussion though they can certainly listen and may be even learn something that was undefined for them before and that they had not known before as rank beginners. If you don't know something about something then everything is jargon as you enter in. Get over it. More than hoping to be spoon-fed take some initiative and read the footnotes for your own Self improvement so as to join in further intelligent conversation. In this case, stop being a sophist and actually meditate if you want to know spirituality. It is certainly not up to every spiritual person to do your own homework on this. You are just making stoopid busy-work here for the real spiritual people here otherwise with this semantic stuff of yours. Have a nice day, -Buck ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Turq you were asking here for 'Spiritual' in common words; well yes anything that reveals in experience the absolute bliss consciousness of the transcendent in life. A transcendentalist. That is different from just common dabbling spiritists or ideological religionists, philosophers or just a classroom physicist. Have a nice meditation today, -Buck in the Dome The words highlighted in red above are ALL jargon and buzzwords that mean absolutely nothing to the person who has not 1) encountered them before, and/or 2) gives them a different meaning than you do or the TMO does. In other words, you're still trying NOT to communicate. Don't you EVER get tired of being such an elitist?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Oh, you left out yourself, Barry. Do I have to use the highlighter again to point out what you *really* think of the people you're preaching to, Buck? The only people on this forum who consistently look down on others as much as you do are Nabby and Doctordumbass.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authcunt wrote: Oh, you left out yourself, Barry. I presume this was one of those examples of creative writing that you claim you've posted many of to this forum, eh? :-) Put up or shut up. Post the links to the posts of yours you consider creative, or just go back to posting insults and let those who *aren't* afraid to be creative from time to time do so. Pretending you're one of them just don't cut it. Do I have to use the highlighter again to point out what you *really* think of the people you're preaching to, Buck? The only people on this forum who consistently look down on others as much as you do are Nabby and Doctordumbass.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Barry, get a grip. I'll post whatever the fuck I feel like posting. You aren't running things here, and you're looking increasingly pathetic. A chronically enraged, obsessed old man. We can almost see the spit dribbling out of the corners of your mouth as you hallucinate and pound away on the keyboard. Even Buck thinks you're ridiculous. You're so out of it your ripostes just confirm what you're riposting to. Oh, you left out yourself, Barry. I presume this was one of those examples of creative writing that you claim you've posted many of to this forum, eh? :-) Put up or shut up. Post the links to the posts of yours you consider creative, or just go back to posting insults and let those who *aren't* afraid to be creative from time to time do so. Pretending you're one of them just don't cut it. Do I have to use the highlighter again to point out what you *really* think of the people you're preaching to, Buck? The only people on this forum who consistently look down on others as much as you do are Nabby and Doctordumbass.
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up. If these same students try to give a lecture or write a story that is peppered with the jargon they've come to be so familiar with that they don't even *notice* when they're using it, then they often lose their audience. If every other word is karma this, or dosa that, or purusha somethingorother, all interjected with no definitions of the terms, IMO the storyteller is *limiting* his audience. And in most cases, losing them. They've been *excluded*, because they don't know the jargon the writer is using. Michael's tale wasn't exclusionary; it was inclusive. He used ordinary language, the way he heard it spoken around him at the time, and he used it well to weave a story that said Ya'll come on in, now. Sit yerselves down while I make us some icetea. One of the things I'm most grateful to the Fred Lenz - Rama guy for is for his command of the English language and how to use it. He taught that skill explicitly in his talks to his students, and he demonstrated it in his own public talks. Some of Rama's students liked the talks he'd give where he got into really esoteric or occult shit, subjects that really did require some jargon and were obviously only for my students. I liked his intro lectures. The esoteric talks, given to students who all knew Jargon As A Second Language, were great because he could skip the definitions and use just the jargon as shorthand, and as a time-saver. He could get into some really, really interesting subjects in these just for students talks. But it was the intro lectures that were High Art. There, he'd get into the *same* interesting subjects, only this time using metaphors like going to the movies and going to work and stuff like that, things that people knew and identified with. His intros were in almost all cases jargon-free, and that's what's so interesting in retrospect. He didn't *need* the jargon to discuss these same interesting subjects -- he found a way to do it *without jargon*, and in
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. I know how you feel. Especially the new knowledge suddenly, overnight being the everyday reality of the people who've just heard it the day before thang. If Maharishi had suddenly announced DC (Dweezil Consciousness, y'know...higher than all the rest) they'd immediately be able to discourse knowingly about DC and what it's like to be there. Just for the edification of us rubes who (sadly) aren't there yet, of course. :-) You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. Don't know him. I've certainly seen the same thing in many orgs, both in the teachers and in their students. It's more forgivable IMO in the students. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. And maybe the self they no longer have just wants to be appreciated for Having Arrived at selflessness. :-) The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. I haven't seen it, and haven't had very many experiences of that sort myself. The most powerful ones were with birds of prey. They just lock eyes with you and won't look away, and if you hold that gaze you (or at least I) can convince yourself that you're getting a hit on what they're thinking, and how they think. I've seen a weird thing around the Rama guy that I have no explanation for. To me it feels a lot like how he described it -- transmission. What would happen was that we'd be late into a center meeting or out in the desert in the wee hours of the night, after literally hours of meditation and talks, and he'd just say Watch. Then he'd either meditate, or dance around, or whatever, with no setup. Often there would be no subsequent explanation, only a passing That was a new teaching. Afterwards, as I walked around and overheard students talking amongst themselves on the break of after the gathering, I'd lurk and listen to what they were saying. Often -- and often to my surprise -- they were describing the same experiences I would have. And using the same language. It was (subjectively) as if packets of data had been downloaded to each of us, silently. It was just the damnedest thing, and as I say I can't explain how it happened, only that it did, with some frequency. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@ wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up.
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
...something I notice on the Batgap chat siteI have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had Hey Steve - Maharishi was speaking from his own experience when he described his 7 states (which he amended to include life in Brahman as a further expression of enlightenment). The discussions I have with one other person on BatGap are in the context of how well, or not, our experience matches the descriptions of various states, as Brahman is inclusive of all of them. In that context, I find that the language used can sometimes sound like jargon, simply because everyone [having the discussion] already understands the experience of CC, or GC or UC. Nonetheless, I have discovered a lot by comparing notes. For example, through these discussions, it has become evident to me, that GC does not necessarily evolve from CC, as UC does, but is rather an expression more of subtle emotional development, vs. expansion of consciousness. I am really not sure what your beef is, except that you were possibly hoping for descriptions, put a different way, so that they would be more useful to your future achievement of them. However, if you simply follow the discussion for what it is - two people clarifying and discussing experiences, you won't get bored so quickly. Last, the only way you are going to get clarification of something, on the BatGap site, is to put on your big-boy pants and actually ask a question, or make a statement. Hope this helps. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your audience, it's fine IMO to give it a name. The first time a spiritual teacher does this, he or she also gives a talk about what that name or term *means*. If it's a term that comes up in his or her teaching often, over time the students no longer need the explanations or definitions every time they hear the term. They hear karma and *don't* hear in their heads Huh? They begin to hear karma and immediately associate the term with everything they've been told about it by their teacher. Nothing wrong with this so far, IMO. It's when the students go out and try to talk to non-students that the issue of Jargon As A Second Language comes up. If these same students try to give a lecture or write a story that is peppered with the jargon they've come to be so familiar with that they don't even *notice* when they're using it, then they often lose their audience. If every other word is karma this, or dosa that, or purusha somethingorother, all interjected with no
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Good points Jim. And I think that perhaps I need to be a little more open minded because for me, I can't understand why anyone would really even want to talk about those experiences. I feel that I have some nice experiences too, but it's not really anything I'd want to share, ala Judy's point. But maybe because you and David are more established in those higher states of consciousness, you find value in discussing them, and it helps you in your understanding. I will say Jim, that you said something recently that stuck with me, because it has been my experience, and MO for a long time. That is, meditation along with introspection and an effect to ferret out our flaws, is a real key to progress. Now just for fun, I guess you could say, that ego confronting maya, and separating the non self from the transcendental self is the key to attaining Moksha. Oh well. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ...something I notice on the Batgap chat siteI have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had Hey Steve - Maharishi was speaking from his own experience when he described his 7 states (which he amended to include life in Brahman as a further expression of enlightenment). The discussions I have with one other person on BatGap are in the context of how well, or not, our experience matches the descriptions of various states, as Brahman is inclusive of all of them. In that context, I find that the language used can sometimes sound like jargon, simply because everyone [having the discussion] already understands the experience of CC, or GC or UC. Nonetheless, I have discovered a lot by comparing notes. For example, through these discussions, it has become evident to me, that GC does not necessarily evolve from CC, as UC does, but is rather an expression more of subtle emotional development, vs. expansion of consciousness. I am really not sure what your beef is, except that you were possibly hoping for descriptions, put a different way, so that they would be more useful to your future achievement of them. However, if you simply follow the discussion for what it is - two people clarifying and discussing experiences, you won't get bored so quickly. Last, the only way you are going to get clarification of something, on the BatGap site, is to put on your big-boy pants and actually ask a question, or make a statement. Hope this helps. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff. But more often in the tales I didn't like, the issue was language, and in particular the overuse of spiritual jargon. Jargon has its uses. If you're dealing with a concept that really doesn't much exist for most of the people in your
[FairfieldLife] Re: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Well, I say this for Michael's benefit mostly, and I've mentioned this before. I read the transcripts of two interviews with Fred Lenz, aka Rama, and I was most impressed with them. And that's a capital M. I believe the second interview was sometime into the whole affair, and my perception was - in the first interview, the silver was polished with a high sheen. In the second interview, it was still silver, but had just gotten a little tarnished. On the other hand, Ithink you see that a lot in spiritual teachers. They work hard to get to a certain level of spiritual development, and gain a level of freedom that comes with it, and then decide, why not (indulge a little). And then maybe a little becomes a lot. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. I know how you feel. Especially the new knowledge suddenly, overnight being the everyday reality of the people who've just heard it the day before thang. If Maharishi had suddenly announced DC (Dweezil Consciousness, y'know...higher than all the rest) they'd immediately be able to discourse knowingly about DC and what it's like to be there. Just for the edification of us rubes who (sadly) aren't there yet, of course. :-) You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I know he has a Batgap interview, (which I haven't seen), but every so often I check into his website to see a few minutes of his talks. Don't know him. I've certainly seen the same thing in many orgs, both in the teachers and in their students. It's more forgivable IMO in the students. On the other hand, there's much I don't know about the upper echelons of spirituality, that maybe they all have arrived as they seem to indicate. And maybe the self they no longer have just wants to be appreciated for Having Arrived at selflessness. :-) The most spiritual thing I've seen in the last couple years was the video Ann posted about Ann ___ who can dial into the thinking and feeling of animals. If I have any spiritual tingling in my life, it would be along those lines. I do feel an affinity with the animal world, including insects, but nothing like she has. I'd be like comparing a kindergartner to a college grad. I haven't seen it, and haven't had very many experiences of that sort myself. The most powerful ones were with birds of prey. They just lock eyes with you and won't look away, and if you hold that gaze you (or at least I) can convince yourself that you're getting a hit on what they're thinking, and how they think. I've seen a weird thing around the Rama guy that I have no explanation for. To me it feels a lot like how he described it -- transmission. What would happen was that we'd be late into a center meeting or out in the desert in the wee hours of the night, after literally hours of meditation and talks, and he'd just say Watch. Then he'd either meditate, or dance around, or whatever, with no setup. Often there would be no subsequent explanation, only a passing That was a new teaching. Afterwards, as I walked around and overheard students talking amongst themselves on the break of after the gathering, I'd lurk and listen to what they were saying. Often -- and often to my surprise -- they were describing the same experiences I would have. And using the same language. It was (subjectively) as if packets of data had been downloaded to each of us, silently. It was just the damnedest thing, and as I say I can't explain how it happened, only that it did, with some frequency. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@ wrote: Michael's story about a Death Watch, Southern-Style really inspired me this morning. It reached me. It got me interested in the characters and the scenario and how things were gonna turn out...even though that was a little telegraphed by the title. :-) Being me, I started thinking about this in terms of some recent posts that have discussed the writing of stories about spiritual experience. Some of the tales of power I've read from seekers on many paths reached me, and some didn't. In some cases there was too much Look at me in the tales I didn't like, too much attention-seeking on the part of the storyteller, and that -- for me -- is a bit of a turnoff.
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Hey Steve - yeah, I am grateful that I am able to find people, from time to time, with whom I can discuss my experiences. I don't do it simply to hear different perspectives, or flavors, but, rather as a quicker way to learn about something, and make progress. Simply that it is another person, having similar enough experiences that they can be compared, is a fantastic way, for me, to clear up misconceptions or questions that creep up into anything. The duration is far shorter, but I get equally excited when I learn how to clean out a gas burner tube, fix a plumbing leak, rewire a circuit, or install a solar panel. Life is just so mind blowingly cool, and everything about it. I am a constant sponge for knowledge and experience, and learning, and always have been. My latest adventure involves RVing in a Class A 34 ft rig - Fun as fuck!! and you can quote me on that. Now that I know how to operate it, after a shake-out trip, I soon leave for a primitive campsite in the mountains for two weeks, carrying all my water food, fuel and all the comforts of home, except for cell, internet and tv (no problem-o) . I am writing my life story, and it is time to get started, with future sojourns in mind. Anyway, my point is, as a life goal, I really enjoy going after that 200 percent of life thing MMY talked about; 100% inside (Moksha) and 100% outside (Unity). The fun is blending it all together, while continuing to learn, live and grow, without any apparent limits to what can be achieved; just have to watch out for the thorns on the roses sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Good points Jim. And I think that perhaps I need to be a little more open minded because for me, I can't understand why anyone would really even want to talk about those experiences. I feel that I have some nice experiences too, but it's not really anything I'd want to share, ala Judy's point. But maybe because you and David are more established in those higher states of consciousness, you find value in discussing them, and it helps you in your understanding. I will say Jim, that you said something recently that stuck with me, because it has been my experience, and MO for a long time. That is, meditation along with introspection and an effect to ferret out our flaws, is a real key to progress. Now just for fun, I guess you could say, that ego confronting maya, and separating the non self from the transcendental self is the key to attaining Moksha. Oh well. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ...something I notice on the Batgap chat siteI have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had Hey Steve - Maharishi was speaking from his own experience when he described his 7 states (which he amended to include life in Brahman as a further expression of enlightenment). The discussions I have with one other person on BatGap are in the context of how well, or not, our experience matches the descriptions of various states, as Brahman is inclusive of all of them. In that context, I find that the language used can sometimes sound like jargon, simply because everyone [having the discussion] already understands the experience of CC, or GC or UC. Nonetheless, I have discovered a lot by comparing notes. For example, through these discussions, it has become evident to me, that GC does not necessarily evolve from CC, as UC does, but is rather an expression more of subtle emotional development, vs. expansion of consciousness. I am really not sure what your beef is, except that you were possibly hoping for descriptions, put a different way, so that they would be more useful to your future achievement of them. However, if you simply follow the discussion for what it is - two people clarifying and discussing experiences, you won't get bored so quickly. Last, the only way you are going to get clarification of something, on the BatGap site, is to put on your big-boy pants and actually ask a question, or make a statement. Hope this helps. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I know, maybe they are living those realities! But I find after only a few sentences, I get pretty bored. You get that same thing with David Spero, (sorry no link, kind of rushing this morning). I
[FairfieldLife] RE: Jargon As A Second Language: how it impedes spiritual communication
Jim, thanks for your reply. I understand what you are saying. And I gotta say, it sounds like you've got a damn fine plan! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hey Steve - yeah, I am grateful that I am able to find people, from time to time, with whom I can discuss my experiences. I don't do it simply to hear different perspectives, or flavors, but, rather as a quicker way to learn about something, and make progress. Simply that it is another person, having similar enough experiences that they can be compared, is a fantastic way, for me, to clear up misconceptions or questions that creep up into anything. The duration is far shorter, but I get equally excited when I learn how to clean out a gas burner tube, fix a plumbing leak, rewire a circuit, or install a solar panel. Life is just so mind blowingly cool, and everything about it. I am a constant sponge for knowledge and experience, and learning, and always have been. My latest adventure involves RVing in a Class A 34 ft rig - Fun as fuck!! and you can quote me on that. Now that I know how to operate it, after a shake-out trip, I soon leave for a primitive campsite in the mountains for two weeks, carrying all my water food, fuel and all the comforts of home, except for cell, internet and tv (no problem-o) . I am writing my life story, and it is time to get started, with future sojourns in mind. Anyway, my point is, as a life goal, I really enjoy going after that 200 percent of life thing MMY talked about; 100% inside (Moksha) and 100% outside (Unity). The fun is blending it all together, while continuing to learn, live and grow, without any apparent limits to what can be achieved; just have to watch out for the thorns on the roses sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Good points Jim. And I think that perhaps I need to be a little more open minded because for me, I can't understand why anyone would really even want to talk about those experiences. I feel that I have some nice experiences too, but it's not really anything I'd want to share, ala Judy's point. But maybe because you and David are more established in those higher states of consciousness, you find value in discussing them, and it helps you in your understanding. I will say Jim, that you said something recently that stuck with me, because it has been my experience, and MO for a long time. That is, meditation along with introspection and an effect to ferret out our flaws, is a real key to progress. Now just for fun, I guess you could say, that ego confronting maya, and separating the non self from the transcendental self is the key to attaining Moksha. Oh well. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ...something I notice on the Batgap chat siteI have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had Hey Steve - Maharishi was speaking from his own experience when he described his 7 states (which he amended to include life in Brahman as a further expression of enlightenment). The discussions I have with one other person on BatGap are in the context of how well, or not, our experience matches the descriptions of various states, as Brahman is inclusive of all of them. In that context, I find that the language used can sometimes sound like jargon, simply because everyone [having the discussion] already understands the experience of CC, or GC or UC. Nonetheless, I have discovered a lot by comparing notes. For example, through these discussions, it has become evident to me, that GC does not necessarily evolve from CC, as UC does, but is rather an expression more of subtle emotional development, vs. expansion of consciousness. I am really not sure what your beef is, except that you were possibly hoping for descriptions, put a different way, so that they would be more useful to your future achievement of them. However, if you simply follow the discussion for what it is - two people clarifying and discussing experiences, you won't get bored so quickly. Last, the only way you are going to get clarification of something, on the BatGap site, is to put on your big-boy pants and actually ask a question, or make a statement. Hope this helps. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote: Nice little rap. It is something I notice on the Batgap chat site. There are some correspondents (as Richard would say), who really nail that jargon. I have to say it always sounds good, but I ask myself, could it not be said more simply? There is basically no state of consciousness or experience they haven't had. If suddenly a hidden lecture of Maharishi's surfaced about, say, Brahman-in Loka 7, they would have been there, and could speak authoritatively about it. For all I
