[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
This is really an interesting old MMY quote. Reads remarkably like what, going to sit with a saint. Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Question: Are these suggestive powers the strength of one mind over another mind, or someting else? Maharishi: There is mental healing through the power of the mind. But this healing power is a quality of the body. Some rays are being emitted all the time through the body, sometimes through the hands or other extremities of the body. Some constitutions develop more of these energy rays in their body, and when they meditate, greater energy is produced and begins to flow through their body. It is just a quality of the particular body. Some bodies gather more of these rays. This just in: This comes from a new book from MUM Press called, Transcendental Meditation with Questions and Answers. ___ Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF I think it is beautiful,we hold Curtis in the light here and now he has come back to meditation. I'm working on his upgrade from blues to gospel now. -Buck 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. It is true. Yes there's the electro-chemistry of the body and brain that provides a shell for the subtle bodies that fluoresce as the faculties and chakra energy fields which are the forms that the Unified Field as a soul then embodies. It is quite beautiful and elegant. The degree to which this shows itself depends on a lot of things and grace of Natural Law. Yep. Repent ye sinners spiritual, prepare ye the way. Before it is too late. Life is for the living while you have it. There is much to do. Come to meditation. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Let me get this straight. Dr. Pete was into TM, then SBS's programs;...definitely brain changing techniques! (no brainer). ... Indonesia's President, Susilo Bamgang Yudhoyono's composition From Jakarto Oslo for Our World: ... Far away from the edge of the world I come to bring hope Together, allied, the servants of God We must unite to save The Purity of our world. :--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. It is true. Yes there's the electro-chemistry of the body and brain that provides a shell for the subtle bodies that fluoresce as the faculties and chakra energy fields which are the forms that the Unified Field as a soul then embodies. It is quite beautiful and elegant. The degree to which this shows itself depends on a lot of things and grace of Natural Law. Yep. Repent ye sinners spiritual, prepare ye the way. Before it is too late. Life is for the living while you have it. There is much to do. Come to meditation. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** Buck, I must have missed the info that you had a stroke. Welcome back. I too would like to hear about your experience if you ever want to describe it. Yes, science is showing that meditation is really a good thing. I am reading Newberg's How God Changes Your Brain. Really, the book is not just about God or religion, seems to be about how meditation, the idea of God, thinking about anything abstract and uplifiting (even science) has similar beneficial effects on the the brain. Belief/religion/being part of a community,ritual all have good effects. And the brain is really malleable. The authors do seem to find that different techniques have different effects, but also that in general, most meditations are similar in their action on the brain. I have lots more to read and will get into some specifics when I am done. I am sure that your years of meditating are an important aspect of your recovery. Take care. Yeah, it is interesting. In my experience with it, to have more full Self realization it is way more than just transcending of the mind or mental activity, meditating. Meditating is the start of the work. Waking is also much more dependent on a stabilized and lit energy system. Many are the chakras of the subtle that are in the grey matter of the brain and the central nervous system. The mortal faculties are chakra fields themselves and then there is the process of the whole energy system taken together which houses and reflects an individuation of a soul. As the injury of my stroke itself and then the brain surgery made for a swollen and sore brain the different faculties got pushed around and tampered with. And it was very evident where in the grey matter different mental functions would happen. As it happened in my case, the reference of a self and then a soul in it all never got lost. A lot pops out by contrast when mental things don't work like before or malfunction and you watch it all happen. For quite a while I was very aware of where mental functions were happening within a sore brain by contrast. Through out the stroke and recovery, in my case, I never lost critical witness or self-awareness as a soul. But that too reflects variably as the subtle system works well or decays. Different parts of the energy bodies will spin and turn on or dim out and a lot of time for no apparent reason. It is like there is a decay in the rotation of a chakra and and the reflectivity of the self dims out.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF I think it is beautiful,we hold Curtis in the light here and now he has come back to meditation. I'm working on his upgrade from blues to gospel now. -Buck 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
This just in: This comes from a new book from MUM Press called, Transcendental Meditation with Questions and Answers. ___ Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF I think it is beautiful,we hold Curtis in the light here and now he has come back to meditation. I'm working on his upgrade from blues to gospel now. -Buck 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Question: Are these suggestive powers the strength of one mind over another mind, or someting else? Maharishi: There is mental healing through the power of the mind. But this healing power is a quality of the body. Some rays are being emitted all the time through the body, sometimes through the hands or other extremities of the body. Some constitutions develop more of these energy rays in their body, and when they meditate, greater energy is produced and begins to flow through their body. It is just a quality of the particular body. Some bodies gather more of these rays. This just in: This comes from a new book from MUM Press called, Transcendental Meditation with Questions and Answers. ___ Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF I think it is beautiful,we hold Curtis in the light here and now he has come back to meditation. I'm working on his upgrade from blues to gospel now. -Buck 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Question: Are these suggestive powers the strength of one mind over another mind, or someting else? Maharishi: There is mental healing through the power of the mind. But this healing power is a quality of the body. Some rays are being emitted all the time through the body, sometimes through the hands or other extremities of the body. Some constitutions develop more of these energy rays in their body, and when they meditate, greater energy is produced and begins to flow through their body. It is just a quality of the particular body. Some bodies gather more of these rays. Question: Placing the hands on the patient helps a great deal? Maharishi: Because the healing power flows through their body. It flows through the hand, and if they touch the suffering part it seems to get relief. The healing power of the mind will not require any touching of the body; just a thought will do. There can also be healing through vision. A man comes before you, you look at him and he feels better--the same healing rays. Healing through speech--if someone has a headache one may say, 'You have just a headache, go home, it will be all right.' Some words are said and the headache comes to an end. This just in: This comes from a new book from MUM Press called, Transcendental Meditation with Questions and Answers. ___ Question: Some people have healing powers. They can cure other people. Maharishi: Yes. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. It's interesting that Unified Field, yes it's undifferentiated light but it shines and is in everyone. A cool thing of being awakened to it is that you can take and shine it and help others with it. Well-being is also what it is about. -Buck in FF I think it is beautiful,we hold Curtis in the light here and now he has come back to meditation. I'm working on his upgrade from blues to gospel now. -Buck 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes as higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. Not possible to see from his ramblings here :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: And non-meditators, what could they possibly have to offer here? -Buck in FF Buck, since you hit the ground ranting again this week, let's have a look at this particular rantlet, shall we? I doubt I'm the only person here who sees your Come back to meditation as what it really is -- Come back to TM. I've never gotten the feeling that you have any more respect for people who practice other forms of meditation than you do for your awful non-meditators. I don't think you understand. I never stopped meditating. I doubt Vaj did, either. What we stopped was practicing meditation with training wheels, that is to say, TM. I haven't thought my original TM mantra in easily 30 years. But that doesn't mean I don't meditate. I do, quite often. Not to a fixed schedule, because I no longer see a value in that, but when I feel like it, which is sometimes daily, sometimes not. What I practice *when* I meditate are a variety of dif- ferent techniques, taught to me by different teachers. Some involve focus and concentration, some are just as effortless as TM, and some are much more so (meaning that there is NO object of focus like a mantra, and thus nothing to come back to). I have simply left the training wheels behind and ride a grown-up bike, without them. But the biggest issue IMO is not what kind of bike one rides, but *where one is going on it*. I no longer see meditation as the central focus of my life. It's merely an accessory *to* that life, a tiny part of it, no more important than eating and sleeping and trying to do the best I can for the people I run into along the Way. And that's just sitting meditation; given the variety of techniques I have learned over the years, I can just as easily be meditating while at the movies, or while walking, or while having sex, or even while writing to FFL. Can you say the same? I know that to some extent your schtick here is to echo what you hear around you in Fairfield. I kinda doubt anyone ever really said these things; you're echoing things you hear in your head. And one of those voices is IMO the voice of elitism. You've still never shaken the belief you were indoctrinated with that meditators (meaning TMers) are somehow better or more valuable than either those who don't meditate or those who do but who practice lesser forms of meditation. I think that's a kind of low-rent 'tude, personally. It's like saying What could a homeless person offer here?, spoken by a member of a group who all have nice, cozy houses and consider themselves superior to those who don't. One of the things you might learn from Curtis -- who I have never seen being elitist w.r.t. his fellow man -- is the essential *equality* of all people. They all have something to offer, no matter who or what they are. The issue of whether they meditate or not doesn't really factor into the equation at all. By all means, please continue your exhortations to Come back to meditation if you want. But from time to time I might appeal to you to Come back to being a simple human being, no better than any other human being.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. Actually I talked about this from when Maharishi died but you kept me on the others team for emotional traction. The thing is the term come back to meditation is a misnomer because I don't buy any of Maharishi's teaching about his technique, from the medically bogus relieving stress in the nervous system to the fanciful rebranding of dissociative disorder symptoms as higher states of consciousness. Of course I have to accept that the people in the domes are creating World Peace by leaning on their chair jacks and snoozing but that has been proven! The whole team concept gets in the way of an interesting series of questions: 1. What does TM do in the brain and how does it change the way the brain communicates with itself? This is the most interesting area for me and I believe with be the most fruitful. We have to be open minded about this. It may be good or bad and I suspect that dosage matters a lot. There IS a too much of this alteration IMO from my experience. 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Ad billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms with a co-ed in a peasant dress and the new Earth shoe, Sketchers. But yes I like my TM. Not to cultivate the promised benefits, but as a delightful change of gears like when I am preparing for a show after a long drive. I think some version of meditation is useful in any hominid tool kit, till we find out it creates brain lesions that makes people crazy. If that turns out to be what they find then I'll have to switch to the more traditionally popular show preparation of coke and hookers. I have a healthy respect for tradition. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Curtis, I shall follow in the footsteps of my fellow minion Marek and praise you for your tasty choice of both words and ideas... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: snippus interruptus The whole team concept gets in the way of an interesting series of questions: 1. What does TM do in the brain and how does it change the way the brain communicates with itself? This is the most interesting area for me and I believe with be the most fruitful. We have to be open minded about this. It may be good or bad and I suspect that dosage matters a lot. There IS a too much of this alteration IMO from my experience. And, I think, in most people's experience here if they have ever witnessed heavy unstressing, whether on a rounding course or out in the world. 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Bingo. As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms with a co-ed in a peasant dress and the new Earth shoe, Sketchers. This is essentially the same question that drives me. Without the Phish concert and the Earth Shoe babe, that is. I'm much more a Tangerine Dream or Keith Jarrett concert kinda guy, accompanied by someone who looks stunning in high heels. :-) But yes I like my TM. Not to cultivate the promised benefits, but as a delightful change of gears like when I am preparing for a show after a long drive. I think some version of meditation is useful in any hominid tool kit, till we find out it creates brain lesions that makes people crazy. If that turns out to be what they find then I'll have to switch to the more traditionally popular show preparation of coke and hookers. I have a healthy respect for tradition. Wouldn't it be cool if the different meditation orgs out there advertised their products according to the chemical highs they were supposed to replace? Such groups could advertise their meditation techniques as providing the same hit as popular recreational chemicals. One technique would provide a guaranteed Phish concert on shrooms in the company of a coed wearing Earth Shoes cool buzz. Another technique would provide more of a coke and hookers buzz. :-) H. There is a science fiction story in this...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being higher states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? I'm thrashing around here, more than being very clear; maybe someone else can help me out. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Ad billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Curtis, I shall follow in the footsteps of my fellow minion Marek and praise you for your tasty choice of both words and ideas... Well you two were pretty much obligated to or you would have gotten a rash of shit from me for betraying our friendship! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snippus interruptus The whole team concept gets in the way of an interesting series of questions: 1. What does TM do in the brain and how does it change the way the brain communicates with itself? This is the most interesting area for me and I believe with be the most fruitful. We have to be open minded about this. It may be good or bad and I suspect that dosage matters a lot. There IS a too much of this alteration IMO from my experience. And, I think, in most people's experience here if they have ever witnessed heavy unstressing, whether on a rounding course or out in the world. 2. When people do enough TM to shift into the kind of experiences Maharishi describes ad higher states of consciousness, does it improve anything that matters to us or is it just another POV? Bingo. As billed it gives deeper insight into reality. If this is the case can anything be demonstrated that might indicate this or is it just a cool buzz for the person with no added cognitive abilities that you could get from a few bong hits at a Phish concert followed by a night of shrooms with a co-ed in a peasant dress and the new Earth shoe, Sketchers. This is essentially the same question that drives me. Without the Phish concert and the Earth Shoe babe, that is. I'm much more a Tangerine Dream or Keith Jarrett concert kinda guy, accompanied by someone who looks stunning in high heels. :-) But yes I like my TM. Not to cultivate the promised benefits, but as a delightful change of gears like when I am preparing for a show after a long drive. I think some version of meditation is useful in any hominid tool kit, till we find out it creates brain lesions that makes people crazy. If that turns out to be what they find then I'll have to switch to the more traditionally popular show preparation of coke and hookers. I have a healthy respect for tradition. Wouldn't it be cool if the different meditation orgs out there advertised their products according to the chemical highs they were supposed to replace? Such groups could advertise their meditation techniques as providing the same hit as popular recreational chemicals. One technique would provide a guaranteed Phish concert on shrooms in the company of a coed wearing Earth Shoes cool buzz. Another technique would provide more of a coke and hookers buzz. :-) H. There is a science fiction story in this...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote: This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being higher states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I have posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my view on this through the years here. Let's see if I can clarify: 1. I believe that the state induced in meditation can be beneficial for some people who lack the ability to step back from themselves and be less driven by impulse. It is a basic cognitive skill that is discussed in NLP a lot. Their model of the usefulness of this state has helped shape my thinking. They see it as context dependent. They see a functional mind as being able to shift from one perspective to another. Say you are being criticized. Being able to separate yourself a bit allows you to compare what they are saying with your own perspective to see if it is accurate,minimizing the effect of your natural defensiveness. We used to practice it as at technique and I find it really helpful. But if you get stuck in that dissociation you miss out on the direct sensation of emotion which is better for say, making love. (That is where thinking about baseball comes in!) 2. If you meditate or particularly round enough, you get stuck IMO in a dissociative state and that gives rise to a lot of problems. The biggest one is a decreased ability to distinguish your enhanced internal experience of ideas with their epistemological reliability. People with this state heightened, experience all sorts of things which I now theorize is a breakdown in the internal and external vision wall. Our imagination take wings literally and we can see angels. I am jumping around here in delight that you might pursue how you are thinking of this these days. My performance state is a great reference because it represents what I now believe is a way for me to trick my brain into serving up my unconscious capabilities more directly. It is a fluid flow between conscious and unconscious, but it is key that the silent part of my mind can't dominate to work best. Sometimes I need to tweak it with some meditation, but the biggest factor is the need of the times. I am being facetious here but it is the context that pulls out the state like when you are surfing. We are doing these activities to draw out the state because it is really pleasurable and it brings out our talents. we need to push ourselves in contexts that force us into functioning at our peak. What passes for my lame version of spirituality these days, is trying to see how I can access this state without an audience in front of me. Its funny but most of my practice is in front of an imaginary audience, usually my upcoming gig. By the time I hit the stage I have acted it out internally many times and I feel this solidity and relaxation when I perform. But because every audience is different, I am also challenged to react in the moment, and this leads to some cool stuff. Same in public speaking, same dynamic. When I am teaching I am floating in the same place of balance. I'm rambling here but please respond with your angle on this on or offline. This is really important to me and I appreciate your picking it up for discussion. I'm thrashing around here, more than being very clear; maybe someone else can help me out. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being higher states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I have posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my view on this through the years here. Let's see if I can clarify: 1. I believe that the state induced in meditation can be beneficial for some people who lack the ability to step back from themselves and be less driven by impulse. It is a basic cognitive skill that is discussed in NLP a lot. Their model of the usefulness of this state has helped shape my thinking. They see it as context dependent. They see a functional mind as being able to shift from one perspective to another. Say you are being criticized. Being able to separate yourself a bit allows you to compare what they are saying with your own perspective to see if it is accurate,minimizing the effect of your natural defensiveness. We used to practice it as at technique and I find it really helpful. But if you get stuck in that dissociation you miss out on the direct sensation of emotion which is better for say, making love. (That is where thinking about baseball comes in!) This is one reason I like you, Curtis. You are Tantric. You follow some of the most high-rent rap ever seen on this forum with a (in some people's eyes) low-rent one- liner that makes people (or at least me) laugh out loud. Much appreciated. LOL. 2. If you meditate or particularly round enough, you get stuck IMO in a dissociative state and that gives rise to a lot of problems. The biggest one is a decreased ability to distinguish your enhanced internal experience of ideas with their epistemological reliability. People with this state heightened, experience all sorts of things which I now theorize is a breakdown in the internal and external vision wall. Our imagination take wings literally and we can see angels. I am jumping around here in delight that you might pursue how you are thinking of this these days. My performance state is a great reference because it represents what I now believe is a way for me to trick my brain into serving up my unconscious capabilities more directly. It is a fluid flow between conscious and unconscious, but it is key that the silent part of my mind can't dominate to work best. This is pretty much how I feel about writing. I am no musician, Curtis, and have never been blessed enough to be one. I was always a crappy guitarist, and never much progressed beyond crappy. But at a typewriter or computer keyboard, I rock. I don't need to look at the keys to read the notes, I don't have to think about what I am writing at all. My self almost steps out of the way and (because I'm a fast typist), what I think appears on the screen almost at the same moment it appears in my mind. One reason I like Fairfield Life (despite its challenges) is that it affords me an environment in which I can take advantage of this ability to write quickly, while trying not to get in my own way. Contrary to what someone suggested recently, I almost NEVER pre-plan any post I make here. If the first few sentences of a person's post inspires me to reply to it, I often hit Reply and start typing before I've read the whole thing. I like things more
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Curtis, for me that shift of attention from one state of mind (i.e., from dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental not doing, uninvolved, separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable. I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other highs). I'm a big fan of exalted experiences, too, but they seem to be just a version of the quotidian, different in degree but not in kind. One thing you've spoken about on more than one occasion, and something that got me thinking, was the idea that a lot of these states of mind are resultant to the simple process of growing up and becoming an adult. Looking around, there seems to be quite a few exceptions to that premise, but I do consider that wherever I am in the course, The Meaning Of Life, it's likely that simply putting time and attention into the process may be the single, biggest factor in getting some answers. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being higher states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I have posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my view on this through the years here. Let's see if I can clarify: 1. I believe that the state induced in meditation can be beneficial for some people who lack the ability to step back from themselves and be less driven by impulse. It is a basic cognitive skill that is discussed in NLP a lot. Their model of the usefulness of this state has helped shape my thinking. They see it as context dependent. They see a functional mind as being able to shift from one perspective to another. Say you are being criticized. Being able to separate yourself a bit allows you to compare what they are saying with your own perspective to see if it is accurate,minimizing the effect of your natural defensiveness. We used to practice it as at technique and I find it really helpful. But if you get stuck in that dissociation you miss out on the direct sensation of emotion which is better for say, making love. (That is where thinking about baseball comes in!) 2. If you meditate or particularly round enough, you get stuck IMO in a dissociative state and that gives rise to a lot of problems. The biggest one is a decreased ability to distinguish your enhanced internal experience of ideas with their epistemological reliability. People with this state heightened, experience all sorts of things which I now theorize is a breakdown in the internal and external vision wall. Our imagination take wings literally and we can see angels. I am jumping around here in delight that you might pursue how you are thinking of this these days. My performance state is a great reference because it represents what I now
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote: Curtis, for me that shift of attention from one state of mind (i.e., from dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental not doing, uninvolved, separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable. Question for you Marek: Do you ever miss the prior state? Would you go back to it? Was it emotionally richer or more intense? It seems to me that there are 2 reasons to start something like TM or most other types of meditation: health (emotional and physical) and/or enlightenment. We all started with the CC, GC, UC model and any taste we had of all that compelled us to continue. We were told it was the goal, and it felt really good, too. Just about everyone here on FFL has put in tens of thousands of hours in meditation, yoga, pranayam trying to get our brains to function in that way. But most people these days are into health and feeling good. Enlightenment, unless it is promoted via some organization like TM, is not on people's radar. We are more into a medical/science model at this time. I think in the future it will be really interesting to see what scientists come up with when studying the brains of Enlightened people. They will nail down the specifics of just how the process occurs and how the brain works to create the awakened sense. I am sure there will discussion about whether this is healthy brain functioning, or not. And who knows, maybe people will be able to sample that state and decide if it is what they want to work towards. One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other highs). I'm a big fan of exalted experiences, too, but they seem to be just a version of the quotidian, different in degree but not in kind. One thing you've spoken about on more than one occasion, and something that got me thinking, was the idea that a lot of these states of mind are resultant to the simple process of growing up and becoming an adult. Looking around, there seems to be quite a few exceptions to that premise, but I do consider that wherever I am in the course, The Meaning Of Life, it's likely that simply putting time and attention into the process may be the single, biggest factor in getting some answers. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery for extended periods; TM not necessarily the only method used. Maharishi made many claims about the outcome of practicing his techniques of meditation. Since then, many people acknowledge that they have experienced some or many or even all of what he said would result; I'd put myself somewhere in that spectrum, too. The value of those experiences or states of mind are . . . what, though? Curtis, what you might term a chronic dissociative state does seem to confer a functional advantage: it allows the person to not get caught up in whatever turmoil is present in the situation. And, in my experience, rather than diminish or drain any experience of joy or happiness, it seems to substantiate it. Isn't that (or something like that) what you experience when you are playing music -- a simultaneous separation and saturation in the expression? Isn't that also (to one degree or another) what you experience throughout the day? I know you've evaluated the dissociative state produced by meditation (as well as other means) as being undesirable and the rebranding of that/those state(s) as being higher states as basically wrong; but conceding that what those states of minds represent isn't known by any party, don't you feel that the resultant has value? Thanks for picking up this ball Marek! This is the deeper interest I have posting here, exploring this topic. And I have been evolving my view on this
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Hey, Susan. I don't know if I could say anything about a prior state. To whatever degree I have any insight into how mind and awareness develops and works, I'd say that there's a realization of a fundamental non-involved and continuous awareness. And, yes, an absence of sense of self that I once had, but it's difficult to pin down what anyone actually means by self anyway. This awareness is supported, in no small measure, by the fortunate circumstances of my birth, living in a place and time in history characterized by unparalleled affluence on a large scale. Moreover, I'm smart enough and educated enough to have found a profession that pays a livable wage and get to live in an area of the country of singular beauty and grandeur. And, finally, I'm still young enough and healthy enough to challenge all my faculties in the most extraordinary activity of my life, surfing. But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: Curtis, for me that shift of attention from one state of mind (i.e., from dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental not doing, uninvolved, separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable. Question for you Marek: Do you ever miss the prior state? Would you go back to it? Was it emotionally richer or more intense? It seems to me that there are 2 reasons to start something like TM or most other types of meditation: health (emotional and physical) and/or enlightenment. We all started with the CC, GC, UC model and any taste we had of all that compelled us to continue. We were told it was the goal, and it felt really good, too. Just about everyone here on FFL has put in tens of thousands of hours in meditation, yoga, pranayam trying to get our brains to function in that way. But most people these days are into health and feeling good. Enlightenment, unless it is promoted via some organization like TM, is not on people's radar. We are more into a medical/science model at this time. I think in the future it will be really interesting to see what scientists come up with when studying the brains of Enlightened people. They will nail down the specifics of just how the process occurs and how the brain works to create the awakened sense. I am sure there will discussion about whether this is healthy brain functioning, or not. And who knows, maybe people will be able to sample that state and decide if it is what they want to work towards. One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other highs). I'm a big fan of exalted experiences, too, but they seem to be just a version of the quotidian, different in degree but not in kind. One thing you've spoken about on more than one occasion, and something that got me thinking, was the idea that a lot of these states of mind are resultant to the simple process of growing up and becoming an adult. Looking around, there seems to be quite a few exceptions to that premise, but I do consider that wherever I am in the course, The Meaning Of Life, it's likely that simply putting time and attention into the process may be the single, biggest factor in getting some answers. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: This (Curtis' paragraph below) is something worth discussing on this particular forum, for sure. Everyone here has experimented pretty deeply in what it means to be a human being, or at least fooled around with the internal machinery
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: And non-meditators, what could they possibly have to offer here? -Buck in FF Buck, since you hit the ground ranting again this week, let's have a look at this particular rantlet, shall we? I doubt I'm the only person here who sees your Come back to meditation as what it really is -- Come back to TM. I've never gotten the feeling that you have any more respect for people who practice other forms of meditation than you do for your awful non-meditators. Turq, spiritual growth evidently comes through transcendence. It's an amazing opportunity of a lifetime that comes with a human life. In a very most inclusive way we could grant that where there is transcendence there is tm. However, my people could not possibly grant that there is transcendence in every form of meditation, and the science seems to validate this fact also. I'm all for TM and tm in any form what works. Nothing elitist about that. Know this to be that which you are seeking... -Buck in FF
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote: Hey, Susan. I don't know if I could say anything about a prior state. To whatever degree I have any insight into how mind and awareness develops and works, I'd say that there's a realization of a fundamental non-involved and continuous awareness. And, yes, an absence of sense of self that I once had, but it's difficult to pin down what anyone actually means by self anyway. This awareness is supported, in no small measure, by the fortunate circumstances of my birth, living in a place and time in history characterized by unparalleled affluence on a large scale. Moreover, I'm smart enough and educated enough to have found a profession that pays a livable wage and get to live in an area of the country of singular beauty and grandeur. And, finally, I'm still young enough and healthy enough to challenge all my faculties in the most extraordinary activity of my life, surfing. Yes. This all is really good. Enjoy!! But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@ wrote: Curtis, for me that shift of attention from one state of mind (i.e., from dissociative state to emotionally engaged state) doesn't occur; or, to the degree it occurs, there's still a fundamental not doing, uninvolved, separateness that exists within which these shifts happen. So my experience matches some descriptions that Maharishi, and others, have characterized as resultant from spiritual practices and, consequently, valuable. Question for you Marek: Do you ever miss the prior state? Would you go back to it? Was it emotionally richer or more intense? It seems to me that there are 2 reasons to start something like TM or most other types of meditation: health (emotional and physical) and/or enlightenment. We all started with the CC, GC, UC model and any taste we had of all that compelled us to continue. We were told it was the goal, and it felt really good, too. Just about everyone here on FFL has put in tens of thousands of hours in meditation, yoga, pranayam trying to get our brains to function in that way. But most people these days are into health and feeling good. Enlightenment, unless it is promoted via some organization like TM, is not on people's radar. We are more into a medical/science model at this time. I think in the future it will be really interesting to see what scientists come up with when studying the brains of Enlightened people. They will nail down the specifics of just how the process occurs and how the brain works to create the awakened sense. I am sure there will discussion about whether this is healthy brain functioning, or not. And who knows, maybe people will be able to sample that state and decide if it is what they want to work towards. One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. I endorse their value for me, too, and it's always puzzled me that you've found them to be less than desirable. What you've explained below re NLP's characterization of the dissociative state clarifies your position for me, as well as your experience during performance and its parallels with the surfing experience (and with similar portals like sex, teaching, and other
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html ***
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Well said. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. Or wasting time meditating while drinking coffee which is the Turq's favored pastetime these days :-) -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html ***
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote: One more thing - I know Dr Pete, who used to post here, was adament that enlightenment was not dependent on or a function of how the brain is working. Not sure why he felt that way. I am just remembering that. It is true. Yes there's the electro-chemistry of the body and brain that provides a shell for the subtle bodies that fluoresce as the faculties and chakra energy fields which are the forms that the Unified Field as a soul then embodies. It is quite beautiful and elegant. The degree to which this shows itself depends on a lot of things and grace. Pete knows and is right about this and i miss him around here. -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. /// Susan, the flavor of childhood is exactly what I'm talking about, too. That sums it up really well. ***
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Sorry to hear of your stroke, Buck, glad to know that you came out on the other side. I would be interested to hear how your experiences with that relate to your concepts re awakening. You are obviously not in a position to speak knowledgeably about my life, however. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html ***
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, marekreavis reavismarek@... wrote: Sorry to hear of your stroke, Buck, glad to know that you came out on the other side. I would be interested to hear how your experiences with that relate to your concepts re awakening. You are obviously not in a position to speak knowledgeably about my life, however. *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@ wrote: But I don't think any term like enlightenment does anything but cause confusion. Maharishi's use of the term and his many variations of its characteristics and methods of attaining it did more to obfuscate than illuminate (in my opinion). In contrast, I find lots to recommend in Jill Bolte Taylor's description of her experiences, which regardless of the etiology, seem both valuable and realizable. I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** Buck, I must have missed the info that you had a stroke. Welcome back. I too would like to hear about your experience if you ever want to describe it. Yes, science is showing that meditation is really a good thing. I am reading Newberg's How God Changes Your Brain. Really, the book is not just about God or religion, seems to be about how meditation, the idea of God, thinking about anything abstract and uplifiting (even science) has similar beneficial effects on the the brain. Belief/religion/being part of a community,ritual all have good effects. And the brain is really malleable. The authors do seem to find that different techniques have different effects, but also that in general, most meditations are similar in their action on the brain. I have lots more to read and will get into some specifics when I am done. I am sure that your years of meditating are an important aspect of your recovery. Take care.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck wrote: I too like Jill Bolte Taylor's insights because it is kept simple and clear. If I were in a contrary mood, I might ask if we have to destroy something to get that experience. And not just by a stroke, but my modifying how the brain functions. I don't think so, but the question is reasonable. One reason I think that these awakened states are a good thing is when I think back to the sense of unity and light that seemed to permeate my childhood years, I think that was really good and that was and is a flavor of awakening. I do think you are right that all these concepts of enlightenment can just cloud the waters, create misconceptions and lead people to intensely look in all sorts of directions and buy all sorts of stuff - and miss the point. Personally, I find it a challenge to drop the whole MMY rubric. Guess that' one reason I can get hung up on the brain functioning. I had the exact same experiences as her, same scenario and outcome. Big time. It was extremely enlightening in that it was illuminating but I would not just wish a stroke on anyone for all the possibilities of how it can go to push the energy centers of the faculties around. Fortunately we both got enough of a whole back working that we can live on pretty well and even talk about it. But the perspective was illuminating spiritually along the way. However, en lieu of having a stroke there is certainly spiritual practice that can be done if one has the discipline to do it. I'd recommend pursuing that also because now the science is showing that it (spiritual practice) indeed does change and enhance how a brain can work. An aware person of modern spirituality and science certainly can sit up and have the experience. If only by the science, people should take the time to come to meditation and not just talk or just write about it as an idea. Take the time in the practice. It is different than surfing. -Buck http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html *** Buck, I must have missed the info that you had a stroke. Welcome back. I too would like to hear about your experience if you ever want to describe it. Yes, science is showing that meditation is really a good thing. I am reading Newberg's How God Changes Your Brain. Really, the book is not just about God or religion, seems to be about how meditation, the idea of God, thinking about anything abstract and uplifiting (even science) has similar beneficial effects on the the brain. Belief/religion/being part of a community,ritual all have good effects. And the brain is really malleable. The authors do seem to find that different techniques have different effects, but also that in general, most meditations are similar in their action on the brain. I have lots more to read and will get into some specifics when I am done. I am sure that your years of meditating are an important aspect of your recovery. Take care. Yeah, it is interesting. In my experience with it, to have more full Self realization it is way more than just transcending of the mind or mental activity, meditating. Meditating is the start of the work. Waking is also much more dependent on a stabilized and lit energy system. Many are the chakras of the subtle that are in the grey matter of the brain and the central nervous system. The mortal faculties are chakra fields themselves and then there is the process of the whole energy system taken together which houses and reflects an individuation of a soul. As the injury of my stroke itself and then the brain surgery made for a swollen and sore brain the different faculties got pushed around and tampered with. And it was very evident where in the grey matter different mental functions would happen. As it happened in my case, the reference of a self and then a soul in it all never got lost. A lot pops out by contrast when mental things don't work like before or malfunction and you watch it all happen. For quite a while I was very aware of where mental functions were happening within a sore brain by contrast. Through out the stroke and recovery, in my case, I never lost critical witness or self-awareness as a soul. But that too reflects variably as the subtle system works well or decays. Different parts of the energy bodies will spin and turn on or dim out and a lot of time for no apparent reason. It is like there is a decay in the rotation of a chakra and and the reflectivity of the self dims out. With a little attending to it can start up again, fluoresce and integrate with everything else again and well-being returns. Sitting with the saints and some healers can
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. It's one of those FFL spiritual oxymoron, that the thing that binds us most together on FFL is meditation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. It's one of those FFL spiritual oxymoron, that the thing that binds us most together on FFL is meditation. And non-meditators, what could they possibly have to offer here? -Buck in FF --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Nablusoss this is beautiful really. He was on script to the end. Did you notice that the number of proclaimed meditators on FFL is on the rise? Vaj more recently definitively said he was a meditator. -Buck And CurtisDb too admitted recently here that he had come back to meditation too. It's one of those FFL spiritual oxymoron, that the thing that binds us most together on FFL is meditation. And non-meditators, what could they possibly have to offer here? -Buck in FF curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@... wrote: Over the years posting here I have shifted my POV many times, sometimes radically. I went from not meditating for 18 years to now viewing the practice as a useful tool now and then. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/post?act=replymessageNum=303762 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@ wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wgm4u anitaoaks4u@... wrote: Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too) Maharishi's first priority was the welfare (enlightenment) of the individual, then the ushering in The Age of Enlightenment, Utopia. The one could not happen without the other. Spreading Vedic culture was a bi-product, a leasurly activity when he felt the AoE was on safe grounds.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's final words to mankind
Proof that MMY was primarily concerned with spreading Vedic culture in Society in general and not interested in individual enlightenment per se, only a personal Guru could/would want to do that! (that's OK too)
