[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. I'm no spelling expert, but I'd bet that the reasons all start with the letter $ (a dollar sign, in case it doesn't make it through) As Sal would say, Ca-Ching! :-) Yep, evidently a vein of spiritual gold. He's evidently on to something and getting going. I think you all would have liked watching the whole meeting here in Fairfield. It's not a simple monolithic crowd to play in Fairfield. We've seen this happen a few times around. He's motivated to tell his spiritual experience and its compelling in its way. He's sharp, modern and educated, got shakti and can use it, has been on the road a long time already, got a prickly beside manner and a short fuse all which makes him formidable. He's not going to go away, you'll hear more of him. he's gathering some people around him who have their own interests. Is interesting to see the movement get going at this point as it comes through Fairfield. Like with so many saints that have been made in the West here. That is all practical. But the knee-jerk, quick and general anti-spiritual attack of the deniers here with their own stories and histories reminds me of the railroading that happens in the Jesus story of Luke. The attack is more than cynical to presumptive even threatened reaction. As the fear of spiritual experience for not having it. These attacks seem to want to go beyond just a consumer's union rating right on to suppression. To corking the guy. With these anti-spiritual people for having not been there, the larger warning for others reading here might well be on the doubters. [11:52] Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering. [53] When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, [54] waiting to catch him in something he might say. [12:1] Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. [2] There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. Yep, beware the Pharisees. Jai Adi Shankara, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote: These attacks seem to want to go beyond just a consumer's union rating right on to suppression. To corking the guy. With these anti-spiritual people for having not been there, the larger warning for others reading here might well be on the doubters. I would like to see one example of anyone here who advocated corking the guy. (cousin of fisting perhaps?) I haven't seen anyone advocating suppression so I'd like to see exactly what you are referring to with this inflammatory claim. I believe that pointing out that his claims are not scientific and that his own site which pretends to offer scientific evidence fails to do so are virtuous acts. At lest to anyone who gives a shit about accuracy in claims. That is just applying the methods of science to his own pseudo-scientific claims. He started it. If he would just say God gave him the power and he is all hooked up on oogga boooga juice you wouldn't hear a peep from me. But once he steps over the line of claiming science any educated person has the tools to examine his claims under that standard and see that his scientific evidence is no more than sciency sounding theater. I wouldn't recommend anything more for this guy but the application of whatever consumer protection laws protect people from bogus medical claims and I don't know if they even apply to him. I suspect he has carefully worded all claims to avoid those laws. So let him give his magical power to whomever wants it as far as I am concerned. But at least here, I will remain a voice calling for the term science to be used only when its principles are actually being followed. You don't get to use the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval from the term as a marketing gimmick for a system with the same epistemological flaccidity of a Peruvian mountain village shaman spraying you with rum spit out of his mouth in an attempt to drive off your evil spirits. (Waste of good rum too!) As far as I can tell such claims have a lot more in common with the hypocrisy Jesus was referring to than me calling bullshit on bogus claims. On the bright side, other than your weirdly fabricated attack on naysayers, you refrained from making bogus claims of science yourself in your post and instead used spiritual texts to make spiritual claims. Nothing for me to bitch about there! I believe in your case a bit of uncorking is in order because I think you are just a bit wound up and are attempting to create a false enemy to express it towards. No one wants to cork (I'm gunna have to assume ghee is involved here somewhere) your magic man. You can enjoy magic without involving scientific fraud. Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. I'm no spelling expert, but I'd bet that the reasons all start with the letter $ (a dollar sign, in case it doesn't make it through) As Sal would say, Ca-Ching! :-) Yep, evidently a vein of spiritual gold. He's evidently on to something and getting going. I think you all would have liked watching the whole meeting here in Fairfield. It's not a simple monolithic crowd to play in Fairfield. We've seen this happen a few times around. He's motivated to tell his spiritual experience and its compelling in its way. He's sharp, modern and educated, got shakti and can use it, has been on the road a long time already, got a prickly beside manner and a short fuse all which makes him formidable. He's not going to go away, you'll hear more of him. he's gathering some people around him who have their own interests. Is interesting to see the movement get going at this point as it comes through Fairfield. Like with so many saints that have been made in the West here. That is all practical. But the knee-jerk, quick and general anti-spiritual attack of the deniers here with their own stories and histories reminds me of the railroading that happens in the Jesus story of Luke. The attack is more than cynical to presumptive even threatened reaction. As the fear of spiritual experience for not having it. These attacks seem to want to go beyond just a consumer's union rating right on to suppression. To corking the guy. With these anti-spiritual people for having not been there, the larger warning for others reading here might well be on the doubters. [11:52] Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Who said anything about corking this guy? Sure, use the words attacknothing better to bring the group consciousness to heel than to concoct that they are attacking us. It's an old as the hills technique. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote: Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. I'm no spelling expert, but I'd bet that the reasons all start with the letter $ (a dollar sign, in case it doesn't make it through) As Sal would say, Ca-Ching! :-) Yep, evidently a vein of spiritual gold. He's evidently on to something and getting going. I think you all would have liked watching the whole meeting here in Fairfield. It's not a simple monolithic crowd to play in Fairfield. We've seen this happen a few times around. He's motivated to tell his spiritual experience and its compelling in its way. He's sharp, modern and educated, got shakti and can use it, has been on the road a long time already, got a prickly beside manner and a short fuse all which makes him formidable. He's not going to go away, you'll hear more of him. he's gathering some people around him who have their own interests. Is interesting to see the movement get going at this point as it comes through Fairfield. Like with so many saints that have been made in the West here. That is all practical. But the knee-jerk, quick and general anti-spiritual attack of the deniers here with their own stories and histories reminds me of the railroading that happens in the Jesus story of Luke. The attack is more than cynical to presumptive even threatened reaction. As the fear of spiritual experience for not having it. These attacks seem to want to go beyond just a consumer's union rating right on to suppression. To corking the guy. With these anti-spiritual people for having not been there, the larger warning for others reading here might well be on the doubters. [11:52] Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering. [53] When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, [54] waiting to catch him in something he might say. [12:1] Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. [2] There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. Yep, beware the Pharisees. Jai Adi Shankara, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote: Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ wrote: He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. I'm no spelling expert, but I'd bet that the reasons all start with the letter $ (a dollar sign, in case it doesn't make it through) As Sal would say, Ca-Ching! :-) I am merely pointing out that in Fairfield the guy has found an audience of people seemingly so disappointed by their lifelong spiritual path (TM) that they are willing to pay for a shot of cheap shakti sold by a visiting guy who promises to deliver it. I told you earlier what I thought was going on -- cheap occult energy being *mistaken* for shakti -- and I have heard absolutely nothing since to change my mind. That's what I think he's selling, and that Fairfielders such as yourself are lining up to buy. The larger issue as I see it, however, is the monumental FAILURE it indicates about the ability of the TM program to satisfy even its TBs' spiritual desires and needs. If they're flocking to see a healer because they *need* one, then pretty much all of TM's claims about perfect health -- much less immortality -- are a crock of shit. If they're flocking to see this guy just to see what a hit of cheap occult energy that they mistake for shakti *feels like*, that pretty much means that they have spent decades in the TM movement *without* ever feeling it. Either way, the situation you see as positive I see as pretty embarrassing for all concerned. We're not attacking you, dude. We're laughing at you. You're the one not only shelling out good money to a traveling shakti salesman, but claiming to have been attacked by anti-spiritual deniers when we point out the obvious truth. You ARE shelling out good money to a traveling shakti salesman. There is no other way to describe it, try as you might. Turq Yep, evidently a vein of spiritual gold. He's evidently on to something and getting going. I think you all would have liked watching the whole meeting here in Fairfield. It's not a simple monolithic crowd to play in Fairfield. We've seen this happen a few times around. He's motivated to tell his spiritual experience and its compelling in its way. He's sharp, modern and educated, got shakti and can use it, has been on the road a long time already, got a prickly beside manner and a short fuse all which makes him formidable. He's not going to go away, you'll hear more of him. he's gathering some people around him who have their own interests. Is interesting to see the movement get going at this point as it comes through Fairfield. Like with so many saints that have been made in the West here. That is all practical. But the knee-jerk, quick and general anti-spiritual attack of the deniers here with their own stories and histories reminds me of the railroading that happens in the Jesus story of Luke. The attack is more than cynical to presumptive even threatened reaction. As the fear of spiritual experience for not having it. These attacks seem to want to go beyond just a consumer's union rating right on to suppression. To corking the guy. With these anti-spiritual people for having not been there, the larger warning for others reading here might well be on the doubters. [11:52] Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering. [53] When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, [54] waiting to catch him in something he might say. [12:1] Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. [2] There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. Yep, beware the Pharisees. Jai Adi Shankara, -Buck
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Either way, the situation you see as positive I see as pretty embarrassing for all concerned. We're not attacking you, dude. We're laughing at you. Turq; have you taken your medicines to lower high blood pressure ? :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Either way, the situation you see as positive I see as pretty embarrassing for all concerned. We're not attacking you, dude. We're laughing at you. Turq; have you taken your medicines to lower what seems to be extremely high blood pressure ? Don't forget you're not as young as you used to be, at 63 one has the be more careful ! :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Doug/Buck, rather than continue to play to your act (which I *hope* it is), I think I'll try another approach, and talk to you as if there were a real you behind the FFL facade. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: The larger issue as I see it, however, is the monumental FAILURE it [seemingly, from your reports, a lot of people in Fairfield lining up to see this guy, including yourself] indicates about the ability of the TM program to satisfy even its TBs' spiritual desires and needs. If they're flocking to see a healer because they *need* one, then pretty much all of TM's claims about perfect health -- much less immortality -- are a crock of shit. If they're flocking to see this guy just to see what a hit of cheap occult energy that they mistake for shakti *feels like*, that pretty much means that they have spent decades in the TM movement *without* ever feeling it. Either way, the situation you see as positive I see as pretty embarrassing for all concerned. We're not attacking you, dude. We're laughing at you. You're the one not only shelling out good money to a traveling shakti salesman, but claiming to have been attacked by anti-spiritual deniers when we point out the obvious truth. You ARE shelling out good money to a traveling shakti salesman. There is no other way to describe it, try as you might. Doug, What exactly do you see as inaccurate in my description above? As far as I can tell from what you have posted here on FFL, you ARE paying $15 at the door, if not more for individual blessings to this fellow. And I don't think I'm out of line in describing him as a traveling shakti salesman. You yourself have so characterized him, and stressed the shakti angle in your FFL defense of him. So -- in an attempt to talk to the real Doug, if there is one -- what do you GET for your 15 bucks? Do tell. It seems to have some value for you. I can not only NOT fault you for that, I can fuckin' IDENTIFY, dude. I hung in there with the Rama dude for *far* longer than I should because I was addicted to the shakti hit. What does this shakti that you feel *FEEL* like? What's it *DO* for you, in your honest opinion? Does it *LAST* longer than the time you're in the room? If so, what does the effect of that subjective feeling *DO* for you in real life? Does it seem to enable you to be more productive, or compassionate, or effective in your actions? More important in a way, does it seem to do anything for anyone but yourself? If it gets *YOU* high, that's one thing. If it *ONLY* gets you high, and doesn't seem to do anything for anything or anyone around you, that's another. So what's worth 15 bucks a hit, dude? Tell us. I -- of all people -- cannot rag on someone because they get high from a shot of cheap occult energy... or cheap shakti...whatever they choose to call it, or believe that it is. Been there, done that, faded the T-shirt in the wash I've had it so long. I *understand* the subjective shakti bong hit. But it's been a while since I needed such a bong hit, and I'm honestly curious as to what makes this guy *worth* your fairly obvious emotional involvement in championing him here on FFL. Who knows? Your description of What's in it for you might be so eloquent as to convince me to fly to Fairfield and toke up on the guy myself. Go for it. What *IS* in it for you that makes it worth $15 a hit? Turqananda
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote: Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sun...@... wrote: He found a seam of gold. I'm sure he can find more and more reasons to keep coming back. I'm no spelling expert, but I'd bet that the reasons all start with the letter $ (a dollar sign, in case it doesn't make it through) As Sal would say, Ca-Ching! :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote: Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Curtis: It is in the legal arena where the concepts become the most murky. Personally I believe Patty Hurst was brainwashed and in a diminished capacity when she robbed the bank... Maybe so, but Patty Hearst was unsuccessful in her attempt to claim a 'brainwashing' defense, as were Steven Fishman, even with the 'expert' testimony of Margaret Singer, and they were both found guilty. The 'brainwashed' defense of Lee Boyd Malvo was also rejected by the court, and all of the above were found guilty and sentenced to prison. Margaret Singer was censured by her peers. Most of the testimony she gave in major cases was discredited. That's because it has been proved that 'brainwashing' and 'mind control' don't really work. If it did, we could use 'mind control' in our prisons to help rehabilitate convicted prisoners, right?. So, I don't think that many psychologists currently support the 'coercive persuasion' technique espoused by Singer.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Was another large meeting with Mr. Trivedi tonite(Weds). Spoke about culture, spiritual phenomena, discernment and science. Q A. Gave a blessing too.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Curtis: If you would care to give some examples I would certainly read it with interest... Judy: Naah. I just wanted to register my opinion. I've done that. And since my opinion is worthless to you, as yours is to me, I don't see any point in discussing it. According to Margaret Singer, there is a range of mental impairments resulting from joining cult groups some of which remain after many years. a. Blackout, lack of sensory filters, and anxiety attacks. b. Fog and space c. Altered states and memory difficulties d. Loss of boundaries e. Inappropriate and unrelated bursts of emotions f. Muscle jerking g. Long term emotional flatness h. Seizures i. Visual hallucinations However, participation in new religious groups seems to have a generally positive impact on most participants, an often-replicated finding that undercuts brainwashing arguments but is usually ignored by proponents of such theories as proposed by Singer. Work cited: Brainwashing Claims and Minority Religions Outside the United States: Cultural Diffusion of a Questionable Concept in the Legal Arena By James T. Richardson, Ph.D. Read more: Subject: Psychological Persuasion Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 21, 2002
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Judy: Singer's even worse. Curtis: I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. By 1996 Margaret Singer's 'mind control theories' had been totally discredited by most psychologists. She was apparently censored by the American Psychological Association (APA), and when she sued, she failed to prove her case. Almost any college textbook on sociology of religion could list a number of reasons why Singer's brainwashing and mind control theories had been rejected by the scholarly community. Conclusions of the published studies: The use of hypnosis or altered states of consciousness to induce conformity is not supported. Aggressive propaganda combined with isolation, manipulated peer pressure, torture or the threat of torture, and total uncertainty concerning the future produced limited, but temporary, behavioral conformity... Work cited:: Anthony, Dick. Religious Movements and Brainwashing Litigation: Evaluating Key Testimony, in Thomas Robbins and Dick Anthony, eds., In Gods We Trust, 2nd ed. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, 1990.pp 295-344. 1990. Ginsburg, Gerald and James Richardson. Brainwashing' Evidence in Light of Daubert: Science and Unpopular Religions in Law and Science1:265-288. 1998. Read more: The Brainwashing Model Debunked: http://tinyurl.com/y6bzst2 Subject: Brainwashing From: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 20, 2002 http://tinyurl.com/y2maup5
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willy...@... wrote: Judy: Singer's even worse. Curtis: I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. By 1996 Margaret Singer's 'mind control theories' had been totally discredited by most psychologists. She was apparently censored *Censured*, not censored. by the American Psychological Association (APA), and when she sued, she failed to prove her case. Also, she had previously served as a witness for the prosecution in cult cases, but subsequently her testimony was rejected by the courts. Almost any college textbook on sociology of religion could list a number of reasons why Singer's brainwashing and mind control theories had been rejected by the scholarly community. Conclusions of the published studies: The use of hypnosis or altered states of consciousness to induce conformity is not supported. Aggressive propaganda combined with isolation, manipulated peer pressure, torture or the threat of torture, and total uncertainty concerning the future produced limited, but temporary, behavioral conformity... Work cited:: Anthony, Dick. Religious Movements and Brainwashing Litigation: Evaluating Key Testimony, in Thomas Robbins and Dick Anthony, eds., In Gods We Trust, 2nd ed. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, 1990.pp 295-344. 1990. Ginsburg, Gerald and James Richardson. Brainwashing' Evidence in Light of Daubert: Science and Unpopular Religions in Law and Science1:265-288. 1998. Read more: The Brainwashing Model Debunked: http://tinyurl.com/y6bzst2 Excerpts from the introductory page of the Cult Group Controversies section of this site, the archive of ReligiousMovements.org at the University of Virginia, a short essay by Jeffrey K. Hadden titled The Brainwashing Controversy: A quarter-of-a-century of scholarly research on why people join new religions has come to essentially the same conclusion as the Korean War studies --brainwashing is not a viable concept to describe the dynamics of affiliation with new religions. Defenders of brainwashing have used other concepts like mind control and thought reform, but they have failed to produce a scholarly literature to support their claims. Thus, whatever euphemisms may be employed, the basic conclusion against the brainwashing thesis is not altered Discrimination, or legal action, against religious groups because someone doesn't like them is clearly a violation of the free exercise of religion, a human right increasingly recognized around the world. But the claim of brainwashing shrouds the discrimination by claiming that religious groups are victimizing recruits and potential recruits by employing powerful means of manipulation that are extremely difficult to resist. Social scientists who study religious movements do not reject the general proposition that religious groups (old and new) are capable of having considerable influence over their members. Indeed, most argue that influence is ubiquitous in human cultures. But they argue, further, that the influence exerted in cults is not very different from influence that is present in practically every arena of life Subject: Brainwashing From: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 20, 2002 http://tinyurl.com/y2maup5
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willy...@... wrote: It is in the legal arena where the concepts become the most murky. Personally I believe Patty Hurst was brainwashed and in a diminished capacity when she robbed the bank. But I was very sympathetic to the points made in the cross examination of Margret Singer that I read. The same issues are found in mental illness or personality disorders as a defense. I don't know how many outs I want for any person holding a gun in a public place. I don't believe that many people having benefits from groups that others have trouble with invalidates the thoery of thought reform. The thoery doesn't state that everyone is affected in the same way. Plus there are way too many variables outside a prison camp to control to make it all work the best anyway. Even in prison all POWS in Korea didn't come back believing that communism was the answer to the world's problems. But if you start with people who did have problems, they saw some commonality in their experiences. And even among people who leave groups, everyone doesn't have the same mental side effects. I never had the mental problems reported by the group who sued the movement for example. But Margret worked with a lot of members who left groups and felt that the long hours in TM practice made this group especially vulnerable to some of the mental issues associated with a lot of trance practice. YMMV, mine did. Curtis: If you would care to give some examples I would certainly read it with interest... Judy: Naah. I just wanted to register my opinion. I've done that. And since my opinion is worthless to you, as yours is to me, I don't see any point in discussing it. According to Margaret Singer, there is a range of mental impairments resulting from joining cult groups some of which remain after many years. a. Blackout, lack of sensory filters, and anxiety attacks. b. Fog and space c. Altered states and memory difficulties d. Loss of boundaries e. Inappropriate and unrelated bursts of emotions f. Muscle jerking g. Long term emotional flatness h. Seizures i. Visual hallucinations However, participation in new religious groups seems to have a generally positive impact on most participants, an often-replicated finding that undercuts brainwashing arguments but is usually ignored by proponents of such theories as proposed by Singer. Work cited: Brainwashing Claims and Minority Religions Outside the United States: Cultural Diffusion of a Questionable Concept in the Legal Arena By James T. Richardson, Ph.D. Read more: Subject: Psychological Persuasion Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 21, 2002
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willy...@... wrote: Judy: Singer's even worse. Curtis: I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. By 1996 Margaret Singer's 'mind control theories' had been totally discredited by most psychologists. This is not only an overstatement, it is a misapplication of how the scientific method works. She failed to make her case. She was apparently censored by the American Psychological Association (APA), and when she sued, she failed to prove her case. Almost any college textbook on sociology of religion could list a number of reasons why Singer's brainwashing and mind control theories had been rejected by the scholarly community. I wonder how many of Maharishis theories in his Vedic science would make it through this rigorous review? How many ideas to we share here which have already been rejected by the scholarly community. Conclusions of the published studies: The use of hypnosis or altered states of consciousness to induce conformity is not supported. Aggressive propaganda combined with isolation, manipulated peer pressure, torture or the threat of torture, and total uncertainty concerning the future produced limited, but temporary, behavioral conformity... Socially coercive techniques to produce thought reform are important to study so you can be aware of their influence. The sentence above shows a misunderstanding of how though reform differs from aggressive brainwashing. My interest is in the unconscious persuasion used in sales techniques and belief groups detailed in Cialdini's Influence at one range of the spectrum all the way to how groups can influence beliefs with little engagement of the conscious mind. I don't doubt that there are plenty of holes in the thoery but to believe that we do not have any social influence over each other and that this can be abused is ridiculous. How does a society freely elect a Hitler, and then go along with his increasingly bizarre agenda? How do people end up buying a car they don't need after stopping in for a brochure? Singer and Lifton may not have gotten it all right but that is no reason to abandon the effort to understand our beliefs and how they are shaped by things outside our conscious control and how we can defend ourselves from being manipulated by others. Apply the same standard to Maharishi's claims if you are so enamored by the intellectual authority of the American Psychological Association. How do you think they view Maharishi's claims of his meditation developing higher states of consciousness? Do you think they recognize any of the states Maharishi claims? I'm not saying lighten up on Singer's work, I say let her have it with all the criticism you can to find out what is valuable. But do the same for Maharishi's claims which were far more extravagant than Margret's. Work cited:: Anthony, Dick. Religious Movements and Brainwashing Litigation: Evaluating Key Testimony, in Thomas Robbins and Dick Anthony, eds., In Gods We Trust, 2nd ed. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, 1990.pp 295-344. 1990. Ginsburg, Gerald and James Richardson. Brainwashing' Evidence in Light of Daubert: Science and Unpopular Religions in Law and Science1:265-288. 1998. Read more: The Brainwashing Model Debunked: http://tinyurl.com/y6bzst2 Subject: Brainwashing From: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 20, 2002 http://tinyurl.com/y2maup5
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willytex@ wrote: Judy: Singer's even worse. Curtis: I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. By 1996 Margaret Singer's 'mind control theories' had been totally discredited by most psychologists. This is not only an overstatement, it is a misapplication of how the scientific method works. She failed to make her case. She was apparently censored by the American Psychological Association (APA), and when she sued, she failed to prove her case. Almost any college textbook on sociology of religion could list a number of reasons why Singer's brainwashing and mind control theories had been rejected by the scholarly community. I wonder how many of Maharishis theories in his Vedic science would make it through this rigorous review? How many ideas to we share here which have already been rejected by the scholarly community. Well, I am sure they will lap up SCI #8. its so logical, research based, experientially validated -- how could anyone argue? Conclusions of the published studies: The use of hypnosis or altered states of consciousness to induce conformity is not supported. Aggressive propaganda combined with isolation, manipulated peer pressure, torture or the threat of torture, and total uncertainty concerning the future produced limited, but temporary, behavioral conformity... Socially coercive techniques to produce thought reform are important to study so you can be aware of their influence. The sentence above shows a misunderstanding of how though reform differs from aggressive brainwashing. My interest is in the unconscious persuasion used in sales techniques and belief groups detailed in Cialdini's Influence at one range of the spectrum all the way to how groups can influence beliefs with little engagement of the conscious mind. I don't doubt that there are plenty of holes in the thoery but to believe that we do not have any social influence over each other and that this can be abused is ridiculous. How does a society freely elect a Hitler, and then go along with his increasingly bizarre agenda? How do people end up buying a car they don't need after stopping in for a brochure? Singer and Lifton may not have gotten it all right but that is no reason to abandon the effort to understand our beliefs and how they are shaped by things outside our conscious control and how we can defend ourselves from being manipulated by others. Apply the same standard to Maharishi's claims if you are so enamored by the intellectual authority of the American Psychological Association. How do you think they view Maharishi's claims of his meditation developing higher states of consciousness? Do you think they recognize any of the states Maharishi claims? I'm not saying lighten up on Singer's work, I say let her have it with all the criticism you can to find out what is valuable. But do the same for Maharishi's claims which were far more extravagant than Margret's. Work cited:: Anthony, Dick. Religious Movements and Brainwashing Litigation: Evaluating Key Testimony, in Thomas Robbins and Dick Anthony, eds., In Gods We Trust, 2nd ed. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, 1990.pp 295-344. 1990. Ginsburg, Gerald and James Richardson. Brainwashing' Evidence in Light of Daubert: Science and Unpopular Religions in Law and Science1:265-288. 1998. Read more: The Brainwashing Model Debunked: http://tinyurl.com/y6bzst2 Subject: Brainwashing From: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: May 20, 2002 http://tinyurl.com/y2maup5
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: snip He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? Humans are more complicated? Lots more mental stuff going on? Might inadvertently create some resistance? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. Why not do TM, or whatever gets you to the transcendent? Or pray to the divine aspect of yourself? If this dude does anything, I should think, it's to somehow mobilize one's self-healing abilities. The trick would be to get out of the way of whatever aspect of one's self does the healing. Animals and plants don't have anything to get *in* the way. Just guessing... So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. I wonder if writing that report brought on some bad juju, because about 45 minutes ago, I heard Bilitis, my favorite kitty, howling in distress. She was breathing hard and drooling, so I went over to talk to Petra about it. When I returned, Bilitis was dead. http://alex.natel.net/kitties/bilitis2.jpg Rest in Peace, Billie. Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Im sorry to hear about your cat. You only created good juju by taking a chance on your time and frustration and sharing your feelings with others and thank-you for that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. I wonder if writing that report brought on some bad juju, because about 45 minutes ago, I heard Bilitis, my favorite kitty, howling in distress. She was breathing hard and drooling, so I went over to talk to Petra about it. When I returned, Bilitis was dead. http://alex.natel.net/kitties/bilitis2.jpg Rest in Peace, Billie. Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: So sorry for your loss Alex. Glad you included the picture, what a beautiful kittie. I lost my 17 year old Abyssinian over Christmas so I understand. These little creatures become a part of our hearts. I'm sure you gave her a fantastic life. Our minds hate randomness and love to create connections. The only connection I see here is that you made one little creature's life great till the end. We should all be so lucky. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. I wonder if writing that report brought on some bad juju, because about 45 minutes ago, I heard Bilitis, my favorite kitty, howling in distress. She was breathing hard and drooling, so I went over to talk to Petra about it. When I returned, Bilitis was dead. http://alex.natel.net/kitties/bilitis2.jpg Rest in Peace, Billie. Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: snip http://alex.natel.net/kitties/bilitis2.jpg Rest in Peace, Billie. Oh, Alex, so sorry. What a loss. Obviously a kitty with charm and personality, as well as stunning looks.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. Me, too. I specifically liked the Sit there praying as hard as you possibly can for something to happen part. *No wonder* people report feeling something at his sessions. :-) This is such obvious pre-programming of expectations that only an idiot would try to defend it as being anything else, or as even *possibly* being anything else. Does it have to be anything else? Maybe 'pre-programming' of expectations can trigger the body's self-healing response.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukr...@... wrote: Im sorry to hear about your cat. You only created good juju by taking a chance on your time and frustration and sharing your feelings with others and thank-you for that. Also so sorry to hear about your cat. That sucks. I wouldn't worry too much about juju, though. In the three hours since you made your post, at least 18,294 human beings around the world have died. I don't think you had any more to do with their deaths than you did Bilitis'. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: Thanks for the detailed report, I enjoyed that. I wonder if writing that report brought on some bad juju, because about 45 minutes ago, I heard Bilitis, my favorite kitty, howling in distress. She was breathing hard and drooling, so I went over to talk to Petra about it. When I returned, Bilitis was dead. http://alex.natel.net/kitties/bilitis2.jpg Rest in Peace, Billie. Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stan...@... wrote: snip I wonder if writing that report brought on some bad juju Of course it didn't. From your description, it sounds as if she may have had a heart attack. Happens very suddenly with cats, and it's almost always quickly fatal. Very tough on you, but minimal suffering for her, and nothing you could have done.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: Humans are more complicated? Lots more mental stuff going on? Might inadvertently create some resistance? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. Why not do TM, or whatever gets you to the transcendent? Or pray to the divine aspect of yourself? If this dude does anything, I should think, it's to somehow mobilize one's self-healing abilities. The trick would be to get out of the way of whatever aspect of one's self does the healing. Animals and plants don't have anything to get *in* the way. Just guessing... Yep. Actually, Mr. Trivedi also said that in the course of the evening.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. t. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially. I went last nite too. The woo-woo was a nice shaktipat. Yep, the talk part was a lot thick. But he is sticking to his guns in what he has to say. This is modern spirituality he is unfurling stripped of folklore mythology. Like Yogananda and Maharishi in mission and ministry before him in sequence bringing science in to it. Mr. Trivedi's a very powerful emitter and healer in his way, like Christ was. I found the shaktipat balancing and florescent of the chakras systems. Was clearing or energizing of the energetics of the subtle systems housing one's soul in the anatomy. Obviously created more visceral spaciousness within the subtle energetics of the body-mind complex. He is really good. Was an ultimately spiritual healing that way in addition to some aches and pains leaving. A pretty capable shaktipat. Pretty reasonable for $15 per person in a group. In watching the show, is exciting to see him get going in the secular modern spirituality expression. Jai Adi Shankara, -Buck in Fairfield
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony...@... wrote: snip I went last nite too. The woo-woo was a nice shaktipat. Yep, the talk part was a lot thick. But he is sticking to his guns in what he has to say. This is modern spirituality he is unfurling stripped of folklore mythology. Cool, can't wait to hear some examples. Like Yogananda and Maharishi in mission and ministry before him in sequence bringing science in to it. That sounds very sciency, I'll look forward to some evidence for this claim. Otherwise I might think magic was the agent being invoked. Mr. Trivedi's a very powerful emitter and healer in his way, like Christ was. OOh dear, that isn't helping support the claim, but I'm sure this is just some rapport gaining warm up. I found the shaktipat balancing MMM sounds kind of folkloreish to me. and florescent of the chakras systems. Is that the chakras from Indian folklore you are talking about? Was clearing or energizing of the energetics of the subtle systems housing one's soul in the anatomy. You wouldn't be referring the the subtle bodies found in Indian folklore would you? But I'm sure energizing the energetics is lots of fun. Obviously created more visceral spaciousness within the subtle energetics of the body-mind complex. Obviously. And who wouldn't want or need some more visceral spaciousness within the energetics of their body-mind complex? (Has your body mind complex gone condo yet cuz even though there would be monthly fee the pool wouldn't end up looking like a science experiment.) He is really good. Was an ultimately spiritual healing that way in addition to some aches and pains leaving. Nice touch on the generalized specifics at the end. It almost made is sound as if more happened than a nice little excursion into your imagination. A pretty capable shaktipat. Pretty reasonable for $15 per person in a group. No doubt you are a connoisseur. I suspect you are on every spiritual mailing list headed up by the title:easy mark. In watching the show, is exciting to see him get going in the secular modern spirituality expression. Here is why you get both barrels of snark from me Doug. You went to a spiritual healer and had a good time. If that is how you presented it I wouldn't even bother you with a reply. But you had to step into the flim-flamery zone with the science claims and that makes you an accessory to fraud. He has neither scientific proofs nor has he demonstrated a genuine understanding of science on his site. He is using pseudo science as marketing. It is one thing to claim to be magical, it is another to claim that the methods of science lend credibility to the magical claims. That for me is over the line and shifts my suspicions from guy getting rich from his own wacky beliefs about himself and his special abilities to this is a conscious fraud. And you who have a freak'n college education have no excuse attempting to present this as scientific. You are just being mentally lazy and not paying attention to the simplest fundamentals of the principles educated people use to distinguish fact from fantasy. Jai Adi Shankara, -Buck in Fairfield That kind of sums up what I am getting at.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozg...@... wrote: Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make. I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired. Alex Stanley wrote: Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially. Probably the main reason Maharishi was so successful was because he DID NOT have a thick accent and westerners were able to understand him. I've been telling my tantra teacher for years to go take an accent reduction course. Living in Silicon Valley there are plenty of those offered and for a reasonable price. Since most people taking these courses already know English it is usually about practicing some simple drills and eliminating some of the regional quirks in pronunciation. Some of the drills are even available online. My teacher tends to drop vowels leaving one listening to a string of consonants. Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: snip He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? Humans are more complicated? Lots more mental stuff going on? Might inadvertently create some resistance? Trivedi specifically addressed resistance as being the reason why some people need more than one blessing to achieve results. My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. Why not do TM, or whatever gets you to the transcendent? Or pray to the divine aspect of yourself? If this dude does anything, I should think, it's to somehow mobilize one's self-healing abilities. The trick would be to get out of the way of whatever aspect of one's self does the healing. Animals and plants don't have anything to get *in* the way. Just guessing... I'll just chalk this up as yet another case of me being out of step with the prevailing paradigms, because I feel like his instruction basically summoned my resistance.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Man, you have a point. I hated his lectures. It was full of shit. However, I loved to listen to Nader, Hagelin, Dilbeck etc etc. --- On Mon, 4/19/10, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 9:52 AM I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: snip So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And your scientific evidence that MMY deliberately designed his speech patterns to prevent you from analyzing what he was saying? There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. Gee, that sounds really scientific there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Curtis: And who wouldn't want or need some more visceral spaciousness within the energetics of their body-mind complex... Doesn't that imply that there is a 'mind' with 'space' and an 'energy' inside it, and that these two entities are separated? These are metaphysical terms, not scientific terms. Is there any scientific proof that there is a human body-mind complex in the first place? We all have metaphysical beliefs, whether we want to admit it or not - you are a case in point. The 'singing bard' is probably one of the oldest types of spiritual teacher on the planet! How is your 'singing the blues' to an audience that different from an Indian fakir singing a bhajan to his God?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And your scientific evidence that MMY deliberately designed his speech patterns to prevent you from analyzing what he was saying? Science is what Doug was claiming, and that I was challenging. I make no claims that my analysis is scientific, it is a opinion from the body of work done by Bandler and Grinder analysing speech patterns of Milton Erickson and other state change experts. I am certified as a practitioner of NLP (FWIW) so that is the basis of my opinion. You also added the word deliberately which I would not do. Maharishi was probably just using the same techniques of language used on him. One of the things I liked about NLP was that it gave a framework to understand language patterns that people use naturally through trial and error. It is not claiming that every person using language that defies the conscious mind to keep track of the details is conscious of the techniques they are employing. But after sitting in a room for hours and hours of tapes for what added up to over 2 years of my life, enduring endless repetition of the same phrases, I'm pretty sure Maharishi was not very interested in my conscious mind in his communications. YMMV I am not even endorsing all the claims of NLP which get pretty far-fetched but I believe their language work was excellent and some of it has trickled down to mainstream psychology. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. Gee, that sounds really scientific there.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, WillyTex willy...@... wrote: Curtis: And who wouldn't want or need some more visceral spaciousness within the energetics of their body-mind complex... Doesn't that imply that there is a 'mind' with 'space' and an 'energy' inside it, and that these two entities are separated? These are metaphysical terms, not scientific terms. You are addressing this to the wrong person Richard I was goofing on what he wrote. Those are his terms not mine. Is there any scientific proof that there is a human body-mind complex in the first place? We all have metaphysical beliefs, whether we want to admit it or not - you are a case in point. Do you understand that Doug and I are different people? The 'singing bard' is probably one of the oldest types of spiritual teacher on the planet! I would not consider myself or any blues performer I have ever heard to be a spiritual teacher. If the subject of the blues even addresses spiritual topics as Son House does in Preach'n blues, it is in mockery of people who claim to know things that they could not. Perhaps you are thinking of gospel which is the exact opposite of the devil's music I perform. How is your 'singing the blues' to an audience that different from an Indian fakir singing a bhajan to his God? I'm sure on some levels they are very similar. But in this particular case the better comparison would be me singing my music to myself with no one there which is also actually the case for the Bhajan singer.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And your scientific evidence that MMY deliberately designed his speech patterns to prevent you from analyzing what he was saying? Science is what Doug was claiming, and that I was challenging. I make no claims that my analysis is scientific, it is a opinion from the body of work done by Bandler and Grinder analysing speech patterns of Milton Erickson and other state change experts. I am certified as a practitioner of NLP (FWIW) so that is the basis of my opinion. OK, so it's just your opinion, then. Thank you for clarifying. You also added the word deliberately which I would not do. Perhaps the word designed wasn't quite right, then, because that implies intention. But thank you for clarifying. Maharishi was probably just using the same techniques of language used on him. One of the things I liked about NLP was that it gave a framework to understand language patterns that people use naturally through trial and error. It is not claiming that every person using language that defies the conscious mind to keep track of the details is conscious of the techniques they are employing. But after sitting in a room for hours and hours of tapes for what added up to over 2 years of my life, enduring endless repetition of the same phrases, I'm pretty sure Maharishi was not very interested in my conscious mind in his communications. YMMV Interesting that he would want his teachers not to analyze what he said, but apparently had no such reservations about ordinary TMers doing so. Oh, wait, but so many of the tapes we saw were made during TTCs. Did you notice that when the video camera was on, he would suddenly stop using those speech patterns and talk so that you could analyze what he said for a while until the camera was turned off? I am not even endorsing all the claims of NLP which get pretty far-fetched but I believe their language work was excellent and some of it has trickled down to mainstream psychology. Frankly, I think trying to apply NLP theories to MMY doesn't make a whole lot more sense than trying to apply quantum theory to the Unified Field. IMHO, of course.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
They were often redundant. I know his theory was you have to say the same things over and over again for it to sink in but for me it heard that, got the t-shirt, what else you got? Jason wrote: Man, you have a point. I hated his lectures. It was full of shit. However, I loved to listen to Nader, Hagelin, Dilbeck etc etc. --- On Mon, 4/19/10, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 9:52 AM I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
Bhairitu: They were often redundant... So, how many years did you listen to the Maharishi give 'redundant' talks?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: snip Science is what Doug was claiming, and that I was challenging. I make no claims that my analysis is scientific, it is a opinion from the body of work done by Bandler and Grinder analysing speech patterns of Milton Erickson and other state change experts. I am certified as a practitioner of NLP (FWIW) so that is the basis of my opinion. OK, so it's just your opinion, then. Thank you for clarifying. It is my opinion based on Bandler and Grinder's theories about speech patterns. I actually analyzed some of Maharishi's speeches with my instructors at my certification course in Colorado. The whole thing is based on Grinder and Bandler's analysis which many might object to. I can't claim it is my personal opinion because I am basing it on their work. I think you would enjoy their analysis of language if you are not already familiar with it. You also added the word deliberately which I would not do. Perhaps the word designed wasn't quite right, then, because that implies intention. I agree that I don't know how deliberate any of this was. I suspect it was a matter of trial and error. The same patterns pop up in Rick's interviews and I'm sure that is just from telling the story a bunch of times and eliminating things that make people go wh. When Bandler and Grinder presented their analysis after modeling Milton Erickson he said Oh that's what I do!. He wasn't aware of any of it as being a pattern that could be analyzed. But thank you for clarifying. Maharishi was probably just using the same techniques of language used on him. One of the things I liked about NLP was that it gave a framework to understand language patterns that people use naturally through trial and error. It is not claiming that every person using language that defies the conscious mind to keep track of the details is conscious of the techniques they are employing. But after sitting in a room for hours and hours of tapes for what added up to over 2 years of my life, enduring endless repetition of the same phrases, I'm pretty sure Maharishi was not very interested in my conscious mind in his communications. YMMV Interesting that he would want his teachers not to analyze what he said, but apparently had no such reservations about ordinary TMers doing so. Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. Oh, wait, but so many of the tapes we saw were made during TTCs. Did you notice that when the video camera was on, he would suddenly stop using those speech patterns and talk so that you could analyze what he said for a while until the camera was turned off? Maharishi has lots of different speech patterns if you hang out with him long enough. Most of the tapes reflect his state change patterns. On TTC we also had tapes of specific instructions like how to handle the press which use his down to biz style. It is quite distinct. I am not even endorsing all the claims of NLP which get pretty far-fetched but I believe their language work was excellent and some of it has trickled down to mainstream psychology. Frankly, I think trying to apply NLP theories to MMY doesn't make a whole lot more sense than trying to apply quantum theory to the Unified Field. IMHO, of course. I don't see why not, it analysis in great detail his specific forms of speech patterns. This is not an overlay of different subjects in a metaphorical context, it is the actual subject matter of the theories. And since I was certified to teach it, NLP is a framework I was trained to apply in this exact way. Of course that doesn't prove anything about NLP's validity which, as I have mentioned, I have different feelings about depending on the aspect of NLP we are discussing. It is extremely useful in art like poetry and songwriting to understand the mechanics of how you turn a person's mind inward with language and how to avoid internal contradictions that disturb invoking and internal connection with the words. Maharishi was very good at this style of speech and you can analysis him using it in a positive way if you are inclined to assign positive motivations to him. And for the most part I do, with some important exceptions. My training from Maharishi in using this language form made me a quick study in NLP, particularly in trance inductions. You can also discuss this as the language of gaining rapport with someone. This is a very non sinister use where you want the person to have as little specific conflict with what you are saying as possible. In my own
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make. I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired. This is really interesting stuff, Curtis. If youw were so inclined, this could be a thesis or a really interesting book - how language patterns are used in religions and by gurus, whether intentional or not. And then there is the likelihood that different brains are more or less susceptible to those language patterns. Probably those of us who tend to be religious or spiritual by nature are less inclined to analyze things or stay rooted in logic. Alex Stanley wrote: Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is struggling financially. Probably the main reason Maharishi was so successful was because he DID NOT have a thick accent and westerners were able to understand him. I've been telling my tantra teacher for years to go take an accent reduction course. Living in Silicon Valley there are plenty of those offered and for a reasonable price. Since most people taking these courses already know English it is usually about practicing some simple drills and eliminating some of the regional quirks in pronunciation. Some of the drills are even available online. My teacher tends to drop vowels leaving one listening to a string of consonants. Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: snip Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. ROTFL! Citing Lifton in relation to TM is sillier than citing Erikson, IMHO. Yes, I've read him. Remember how you refused to discuss his theories with me on alt.m.t? I must have asked you a dozen times.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 waybac...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make. I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired. This is really interesting stuff, Curtis. If youw were so inclined, this could be a thesis or a really interesting book - how language patterns are used in religions and by gurus, whether intentional or not. And then there is the likelihood that different brains are more or less susceptible to those language patterns. Probably those of us who tend to be religious or spiritual by nature are less inclined to analyze things or stay rooted in logic. I tend to agree with Curtis' theory, and have for years. It's the same monotone, sing-song speech pattern, pretty much no matter who the teacher is. I also agree with him that many of the people doing this are not consciously aware that they are doing it; they are just mimicking speech patterns that worked on *them*. Might I remind people of a quote from the Braco healer guy whose name came up here recently. According to his site, while you're waiting to have your individual session standing in front of him, during which he blasts you with his Woo Woo, he plays audio tapes, which everyone has to listen to while waiting for their turn. Here are *his* words (or the words of whichever of his followers wrote the website) on the subject: Braco does not talk to his visitors, nor does he touch them or use any other form of nonverbal suggestion: He simply is gazing at them. ... When the groups are listening to Braco´s voice, Braco is not standing in front of them. Braco is not there, you will only listen to a tape, which has been recorded. But just to listen to the sound of his voice is enough to experience similar feelings, reactions and effects as the people do, when they are looking into Braco´s eyes. Duh. Why do they feel a hit while he's gazing at him? They've been state changed first.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. ROTFL! Citing Lifton in relation to TM is sillier than citing Erikson, IMHO. Not according to Lifton himself. His use of the language of sacred science is dead on IMO. Singer, his partner in applying his theory to the movement, agreed. Yes, I've read him. Remember how you refused to discuss his theories with me on alt.m.t? I must have asked you a dozen times. I remember discussing it with you on numerous occasions although I am sure I also refused sometimes. I find his model very useful in understanding my experience in the TM movement which we have clarified was very different from your own. Applying his principles to a person who was not in a fulltime facility and subject to the rules of a teacher seems pointless. I am certainly not interested in convincing you of anything here. Lifton's were a critical piece for my understanding of what happened to me in the movement. I offer my experience to others who want to do their own study and decide if it applies to their experience. Your opinions about either his theories or my application of them to my own unshared movement experiences is worthless to me. I accept that you don't find the model useful in evaluating your relationship with Maharishi and the movement. Given our different history in the movement that does not surprise me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 waybac...@... wrote: This is really interesting stuff, Curtis. If youw were so inclined, this could be a thesis or a really interesting book - how language patterns are used in religions and by gurus, whether intentional or not. And then there is the likelihood that different brains are more or less susceptible to those language patterns. Probably those of us who tend to be religious or spiritual by nature are less inclined to analyze things or stay rooted in logic. Thanks I appreciate what you wrote but I would not be the qualified guy for these jobs! In my experience you have to walk this road of research yourself if you are interested. All the material is there from many sources including cold reading and NLP and Lifton and even Steve Hassen wrote a book that really turned my head around when I needed it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: Sounds like he is Americans as if they are Indians. Even in Fairfield there would be a tremendous cultural gap. That's another mistake would-be gurus from India frequently make. I think the accent thing is a help since we are much more adept at noticing gaps in logic when our conscious mind is not hung up on figuring out what is being said. While most of use could spot a televangelist routine in our own language, we give a foreign person a lot more leeway and most people don't like to appear culturally insensitive by challenging a foreign born speaker. So much of Maharishi's personal pettiness was just written off as part of his inscrutable Indianness. In some street cons the person purposely speaks too rapidly to follow until the person's eyes glaze over and they are given a direct command which due to brain overload they sometimes follow without reflection. So much of Maharishi's speech patterns were designed to overwhelm our mind's ability to analyze what he was saying. And if that didn't work he just wore us down with hours of speaking on abstract topics. There is an old saw from Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if you have been listening to someone for 5 minutes and you still haven't heard anything that you could put in a wheelbarrow, you are being hypnotized. State change language is not meant to inform, it is mean to shift you out of your conscious mind's usual organization. Depending on your beliefs in the person doing this shifting you would either consider this a good or a bad thing. But one thing for sure, your ability to apply the rules of reason gets impaired. This is really interesting stuff, Curtis. If youw were so inclined, this could be a thesis or a really interesting book - how language patterns are used in religions and by gurus, whether intentional or not. And then there is the likelihood that different brains are more or less susceptible to those language patterns. Probably those of us who tend to be religious or spiritual by nature are less inclined to analyze things or stay rooted in logic. Alex Stanley wrote: Out of curiosity, I went to last night's event with Mahendra Kumar Trivedi. He speaks English, but his accent is so thick that it was excruciatingly fatiguing for me to follow along with what he was saying. So, I pretty much tuned him out and sat there for two hours, bored out of my mind. When it came time to do the blessing, where he does his ooga-booga energy transmission, we had to sign a release form. It would have been nice if they'd mentioned that in the flyer, because I would have brought my reading glasses and a pen. So, on top of boredom, I was now annoyed. I borrowed a pen and went right up to one of the bright little floor lights and did my best to read the form and sign it. He then tells us to take off our shoes and socks and instructs us to pray to god, as we understand him/her/it, with our desire while he does his energy transmission. And, I'm yet again going WTF? All those seeds, plants and animals you supposedly performed magic on didn't have to pray in order for your woo-woo to work, so why do we? My upbringing was atheist, and unbounded ineffable transcendence is the closest I get to having anything resembling an understanding of god, and it's certainly not something I would pray to. So, I sat there and put my attention on my neck, which has been bothering me for a couple years. This morning, my neck is unchanged. Needless to say, I'm not the least bit inspired to fork over $300 for an individualized blessing because the only thing that would be blessed is his bank account. At least part of the $15 I did pay to see him goes to the civic center, which is
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. ROTFL! Citing Lifton in relation to TM is sillier than citing Erikson, IMHO. Not according to Lifton himself. Duh! His use of the language of sacred science is dead on IMO. Singer, his partner in applying his theory to the movement, agreed. Singer's even worse. Yes, I've read him. Remember how you refused to discuss his theories with me on alt.m.t? I must have asked you a dozen times. I remember discussing it with you on numerous occasions I could get you to talk about his work in only the very most general terms, as you do here. You were never willing to go into his theories in detail with me. The basic problem with Lifton is that his theories and models are so poorly worded and described that depending on how you choose to interpret them, you can apply them to almost anything. although I am sure I also refused sometimes. I find his model very useful in understanding my experience in the TM movement which we have clarified was very different from your own. Applying his principles to a person who was not in a fulltime facility and subject to the rules of a teacher seems pointless. I am certainly not interested in convincing you of anything here. Lifton's were a critical piece for my understanding of what happened to me in the movement. I offer my experience to others who want to do their own study and decide if it applies to their experience. Your opinions about either his theories or my application of them to my own unshared movement experiences is worthless to me. I accept that you don't find the model useful in evaluating your relationship with Maharishi and the movement. Given our different history in the movement that does not surprise me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. ROTFL! Citing Lifton in relation to TM is sillier than citing Erikson, IMHO. Not according to Lifton himself. Duh! His use of the language of sacred science is dead on IMO. Singer, his partner in applying his theory to the movement, agreed. Singer's even worse. I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. Yes, I've read him. Remember how you refused to discuss his theories with me on alt.m.t? I must have asked you a dozen times. I remember discussing it with you on numerous occasions I could get you to talk about his work in only the very most general terms, as you do here. You were never willing to go into his theories in detail with me. The basic problem with Lifton is that his theories and models are so poorly worded and described that depending on how you choose to interpret them, you can apply them to almost anything. I'm not claiming he is speaking from a mountaintop, I just found his model useful. There are certainly more ways to misuse the model than to use it correctly. But according to him applying it to fulltime TM people was appropriate. According to you perhaps not. I'll go with my experience which is that I found it useful. I don't have any reason to debate your POV I'm sure there is much I would agree with. But your lack of experience with the levels of the movement that exhibited the things Lifton and Singer discuss makes it all kind of a moot point. If you had the experiences of the movement I had you might not find that his theories were either poorly worded or vague. And I certainly have not found that they could be properly used to describe anything. If you would care to give some examples I would certainly read it with interest. He was attempting to describe a phenomenon in human behavior. Given his initial work with Korean war vets it was a valuable humanitarian project to attempt to understand what had happened to them. But it isn't hard science so take what is useful and leave the rest. (where have I heard this before?) although I am sure I also refused sometimes. I find his model very useful in understanding my experience in the TM movement which we have clarified was very different from your own. Applying his principles to a person who was not in a fulltime facility and subject to the rules of a teacher seems pointless. I am certainly not interested in convincing you of anything here. Lifton's were a critical piece for my understanding of what happened to me in the movement. I offer my experience to others who want to do their own study and decide if it applies to their experience. Your opinions about either his theories or my application of them to my own unshared movement experiences is worthless to me. I accept that you don't find the model useful in evaluating your relationship with Maharishi and the movement. Given our different history in the movement that does not surprise me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My experience with Trivedi
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Both teachers and meditators believe they were doing more analyzing than they were. Mostly we fit together phrases from his language patterns like a puzzle. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept of sacred science language from Lifton. Using TM terms and phrases gives people a lot more confidence in their understanding than I believe is deserved. ROTFL! Citing Lifton in relation to TM is sillier than citing Erikson, IMHO. Not according to Lifton himself. Duh! His use of the language of sacred science is dead on IMO. Singer, his partner in applying his theory to the movement, agreed. Singer's even worse. I found her both sincere and extremely perceptive concerning issues fulltime people had in the movement. Yes, I know. snip The basic problem with Lifton is that his theories and models are so poorly worded and described that depending on how you choose to interpret them, you can apply them to almost anything. snip If you would care to give some examples I would certainly read it with interest. Naah. I just wanted to register my opinion. I've done that. And since my opinion is worthless to you, as yours is to me, I don't see any point in discussing it.
