Re: [Finale] Score Order
What is the correct order for this group? Also, what is a good general range for a mezzo-soprano? If you're writing for a specific singer, ask her! And avoid the trap of "typical" or "general" ranges for voice types. If it's generic, I wouldn't go higher than G2 or lower than small a, but more important is the tessitura--where the voice spends most of the song--and not the extremes. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Hi all: Looking to tap the collective wisdom on a matter of score order for a chamber work that I'm currently undertaking. The orchestration calls for flute, piano and mezzo-soprano. The Setup wiz would put it in that order, but my mind is telling me that it should be Flute Mezzo-Soprano Piano or Mezzo-Soprano Flute Piano What is the correct order for this group? Also, what is a good general range for a mezzo-soprano? Taris Flute Mezzo Piano Unless this is one of those pieces where everybody needs to see everybody else's part, an extracted flute part should be prepared, and the flute staff reduced in size (I use 75%) in the score--just as it would be if this were for flute and piano alone. The "official" range for mezzo is a - a''. Every added half-step outside this range, in either direction, slightly diminishes the pool of singers for whom the piece would be appropriate. Compare alto, f - f'' and soprano, c' - c'''. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Score Order
Most scores of pieces for voice and small chamber ensemble put the voice at the top, but it's not a hard and fast rule: flute, mezzo, piano is also OK. Much more important is the question of range for a mezzo soprano. Cecil Rigby gives the normal range for an operatic mezzo, but if you just took these limits and wrote whatever you pleased within them, you could make some big mistakes. That top Bb should only be used as a fortissimo climax, for instance. And there are some vowels that just don't work up there. If the piece is for a specific mezzo, talk to her. If not, pick the brains of of a good singing teacher. Best wishes, Michael Cook At 22:15 -0400 4/09/2003, Cecil Rigby wrote: My vote is for flute, mezzo, piano- it just seems *right* to me. your mileage may vary! As to range, a good mezzo can go from g-g# below mid C up to around an A or Bb above C'. Again, YMMV. Cecil Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Taris L Flashpaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Finale] Score Order Hi all: Looking to tap the collective wisdom on a matter of score order for a chamber work that I'm currently undertaking. The orchestration calls for flute, piano and mezzo-soprano. The Setup wiz would put it in that order, but my mind is telling me that it should be Flute Mezzo-Soprano Piano or Mezzo-Soprano Flute Piano What is the correct order for this group? Also, what is a good general range for a mezzo-soprano? Taris ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Score Order
My vote is for flute, mezzo, piano- it just seems *right* to me. your mileage may vary! As to range, a good mezzo can go from g-g# below mid C up to around an A or Bb above C'. Again, YMMV. Cecil Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Taris L Flashpaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Finale] Score Order > > Hi all: > Looking to tap the collective wisdom on a matter of score order for a > chamber work that I'm currently undertaking. The orchestration calls for > flute, piano and mezzo-soprano. The Setup wiz would put it in that order, > but my mind is telling me that it should be > Flute > Mezzo-Soprano > Piano > > or > Mezzo-Soprano > Flute > Piano > > What is the correct order for this group? Also, what is a good general > range for a mezzo-soprano? > > Taris > > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
On 3 Jun 2003 at 16:57, John Howell wrote: > When double-stave instruments like harp, piano, or > organ were added, they were generally placed just above the strings > (although there is a single-line organ part with figured bass for the > Brahms Requiem, and it is placed at the bottom). That's logical, as it's functioning as part of the bass component. In Baroque and Classical practice, the figured bass was on the bottom, too, not at the location for the keyboard instrument. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Richard Huggins asked: In the end, does any conductor see enough of a given order that he or she is "thrown" by a new one, or is it merely a matter of reorienting one's mind and soon no longer an issue? I'm not asking that rhetorically; I don't know enough about classical scores to know if there's such a thing as a score order that is seen far more than any other. Yes, there is, and it developed for historical reasons. (I'm partly imagining this, but it makes sense to me.) The Pre-Classical orchestra was either strings alone or strings plus a pair of oboes and a pair of horns. They were scored with winds on top and strings below. Every 18th century addition was an addition to that layout. One or two flutes played generally higher than the oboes, and were notated above them. One or two bassoons played lower than the oboes, and were notated below them. When clarinets were added in Mozart's time, they were placed in the intermediate range between oboes and bassoons. Similarly, when trumpets (almost always with timpani serving as the bass of the trumpets, as it had at least as far back as the 16th century), they were placed below the horns, probably because of the inclusion of the timpani. I don't believe I've seen a Classical score with trumpets above horns, although some may exist. That's the score order a conductor expects to see because it was used by Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, and everybody else as instruments were added. The placement of trombones and tuba, ophiclied, or cimbasso below the trumpets was perfectly logical, and placing them above the timpani was, too, because the timps were no longer considered part of the trumpet section. When "Turkish" percussion was added for special effect, it was logical to place it with the timpani. When double-stave instruments like harp, piano, or organ were added, they were generally placed just above the strings (although there is a single-line organ part with figured bass for the Brahms Requiem, and it is placed at the bottom). Solo instruments were almost always placed above the strings. So were chorus or vocal solo lines. That's what you find in Bach and in opera scores for the most part. That's what a conductor expects to see, because s/he has studied these scores a lot and is used to seeing it. Certainly you can use some other order if you want, just as you can print the score non-transposed, but if you do either you will not be giving the average conductor what is expected. (Yes, I know some folks really REALLY want their scores in concert pitch, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would throw me for a loop. When I look at a horn or clarinet or sax part I know what that note sounds like on the instrument, as notated.) Where score order has loosened up and started forming new acceptable score orders is in the band and wind ensemble world. There's confusion about where to put the bassoons in relation to the other woodwinds, and I've seen several different plans in use. Horns are almost always below the trumpets for all the logical reasons that have been mentioned. The score order I've fallen into the habit of using basically groups instruments in families: Piccolo Flutes Oboe Bassoon (treated as the bass of this "orchestral grouping") Eb clarinet Bb clarinets Alto Clarinet Bass Clarinet EEb Contra Clarinet BBb Contra Clarinet (well, I can dream, can't I?) Alto Saxes Tenor Sax Bari Sax Bass Sax (yes, our community band has one!) Trumpets (not cornets because our band has only one cornet player) Horns Trombones and Bass Trombone Euphonium Tuba Mallet Percussion Other Percussion and Toys Other schemes are also used, of course. Now, if I were adding Chorus, Vocal Soloists, Keyboard, or Strings, where would I put them? Probably in the middle, between the woodwinds and the brass. Full string section could go at the bottom, as in an orchestral score. Just celli and basses probably just below the euphonium and tubas. Big band jazz scores use the same general layout, with saxes/woodwinds on top, trumpets in the middle, trombones on the bottom, and the pre-printed score pages I've used generally have the rhythm section below the brass. Add tuba and it should probably go below the trombones. Add horn or mellophonium, between the trumpets and trombones. Bottom line: People will be happiest with your work if you give them what they expect, or in some cases, what makes logical sense if you have an unusual instrumentation. In fact that's what started this thread, a score with non-standard instrumentation. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 10:21 AM -0400 6/03/03, Andrew Stiller wrote: Other than some score that use unusual instrumentation and a totally different order, I don't recall any orchestral works that put trpts above horns on the page. Can anyone name any I should know of? Lejaren Hiller did this all the time. Whether you should know of his orchestral works depends on how "should" is defined, I suppose... As much as a standard exists in jazz for non-traditional jazz instruments, it is common in big band scores that include horns to place them between the trumpets and the trombones. Kenton did this with his mellophoniums, too. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Daniel Dorff: However look at Berlioz scores - he was prone to put the horns in the woodwind choir rather than with the brass, and he also was particularly sensitive to orchestration. There was a lot of confusion in the early 19th c. because the orchestra was expanding so rapidly. The main composer I publish from this period used the order: percussion timpani flutes oboes clarinets horns trumpets bassoons trombones ophicleide/serpent/tuba [cornets] [voices] strings [organ] I modernize the order for my editions of this music. Apropos of the question of the position of the chorus, it should be pointed out that for Beethoven and earlier, the choral staves were placed not above the violins, but between the violas and cellos. This may seem illogical, but it made sense in the continuo era. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Other than some score that use unusual instrumentation and a totally different order, I don't recall any orchestral works that put trpts above horns on the page. Can anyone name any I should know of? Lejaren Hiller did this all the time. Whether you should know of his orchestral works depends on how "should" is defined, I suppose... -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
haven't there been occasions when trumpets were put above horns in orchestral scores? Given that, within each division, instruments are listed in order of descending pitch, isn't there an argument for putting trumpets above horns? Regards, Michael Edwards. In theory, yes. But the standard order is not irrational. Consider the WW: All clarinets are placed together regardless of size, so the Eb clarinet does not go above the oboe, nor does a contrabass clarinet go below the bassoon. The traditional arrangement of the brass is based on the idea that trumpets and trombones belong to the same family of brasses, while the horn is something different. Granted, you could then argue that the order should be trumpet, trombone, horn, tuba--but historically the trumpets were below the horns because they were (before the days of orchl. trbs. and tuba) always associated w. the timpani and therefore needed to be just above the percussion. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
From: Daniel Dorff: > Prokofiev is the best known of those who put the Tpts on top, and he > certainly knew about orchestration. That's very interesting. I had never taken a notice of that, and I seem to have no Prokofiev scores here at home. ALL the other mid-20th century greats that I have looked at just now - including a few each by Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Webern, Berg, Hindemith, Copland, plus all of lesser known later 20th century composers' scores I have here, keep the horns printed above the trumpets. IMHO you'd have to have an AWFULLY good reason to switch, and risk confusing conductors. (When each of us gets as well known as Prokofiev, we could give it a try, I suppose, but I don't see the need.) ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 06:11 PM 6/2/2003, Richard Huggins wrote: >In the end, does any conductor see enough of a given order that he or she is >"thrown" by a new one, or is it merely a matter of reorienting one's mind >and soon no longer an issue? I suppose I *could* get used to any score order, but why make it more difficult for me to see at a glance what's going on? Writing brass horn-trumpet-trombone-tuba is so standard in classical scores (like flute-oboe-clarinet-bassoon) that I would find anything else jarring. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
I may not have been right to do so, but what orch's I have done I put horns below trumpets and above trombones because of their range. Engraving as also I arrange, it's easier conceptually for me to do that and keep my head straight about who's playing what. Granted, though, I certainly could swap the two staves once I was finished, if there were a compelling reason to do so. In the end, does any conductor see enough of a given order that he or she is "thrown" by a new one, or is it merely a matter of reorienting one's mind and soon no longer an issue? I'm not asking that rhetorically; I don't know enough about classical scores to know if there's such a thing as a score order that is seen far more than any other. Richard ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Prokofiev is the best known of those who put the Tpts on top, and he certainly knew about orchestration. It is standard in band / wind ensemble music to put the Tpts first. However look at Berlioz scores - he was prone to put the horns in the woodwind choir rather than with the brass, and he also was particularly sensitive to orchestration. - Original Message - From: "Ray Horton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Edwards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Finale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order > The traditional order is horns above trumpets. The horns got there first, > and the trumpets, often playing along with timpani, followed. The order > remains that way because of tradition, and because the horns play more with > the WWS (esp. bssns) than do the trpts. No good reason to change it. > > Other than some score that use unusual instrumentation and a totally > different order, I don't recall any orchestral works that put trpts above > horns on the page. Can anyone name any I should know of? ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
The traditional order is horns above trumpets. The horns got there first, and the trumpets, often playing along with timpani, followed. The order remains that way because of tradition, and because the horns play more with the WWS (esp. bssns) than do the trpts. No good reason to change it. Other than some score that use unusual instrumentation and a totally different order, I don't recall any orchestral works that put trpts above horns on the page. Can anyone name any I should know of? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra - Original Message - From: "Michael Edwards" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Finale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order > [Ray Horton:] > > >2) Any other order can be disputed. Standard orchestral order really can't > >be. > > > >For an example of what I mean by 2), look at brass trio scores (trp, hn, > >trb). Most will put the trpt above the horn, but a few (Poulenc is one, I > >believe) put the horn on top to follow orchestral convention. One might > >prefer the former, but one really cannot argue with the latter. > > For that matter, haven't there been occasions when trumpets were put above > horns in orchestral scores? Given that, within each division, instruments are > listed in order of descending pitch, isn't there an argument for putting > trumpets above horns? > > Regards, > Michael Edwards. > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
[Ray Horton:] >2) Any other order can be disputed. Standard orchestral order really can't >be. > >For an example of what I mean by 2), look at brass trio scores (trp, hn, >trb). Most will put the trpt above the horn, but a few (Poulenc is one, I >believe) put the horn on top to follow orchestral convention. One might >prefer the former, but one really cannot argue with the latter. For that matter, haven't there been occasions when trumpets were put above horns in orchestral scores? Given that, within each division, instruments are listed in order of descending pitch, isn't there an argument for putting trumpets above horns? Regards, Michael Edwards. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
[Darcy James Argue:] >I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > >Timp >Bells/Chimes >Perc >Harp >Piano >Boy Soprano >SATB chorus >Strings ... >The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, >but -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the >percussion at the top like that. I see no reason not to stick to the normal order. If it looks unusual, that's only because the total instrumentation *is* rather unusual, and I see no problem with the score order and appearance merely reflecting that fact. I would have thought the Bells/Chimes would go *below* the Percussion, though. [Mark D. Lew:] >>I don't know what order percussion is supposed to go within its own section, [Darcy:] >Usually timpani first, then pitched, then unpitched, but of course if >the percussion players switch around a lot it's up for grabs. Actually, I thought it was more usual to go timpani, unpitched, then pitched. Am I mistaken on this? (Perhaps having all pitched together, followed by all unpitched, is actually more logical; but it is not what I thought usual practice was.) I believe within each sub-section (pitched, unpitched) there is no standard order at all; but it would seem to make sense to arrange them as much as possible in order of descending pitch, just like the other sections of the orchestra. I've seen scores where the cymbals or triangle were placed *above* the bass drum or tamtam, and it always jarred somehow, although it can't be actually called incorrect if there is no standard ordering of these instruments. Regards, Michael Edwards. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order > > Darcy James Argue wrote: > > > > > I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > > > > > > Timp > > > Bells/Chimes > > > Perc > > > Harp > > > Piano > > > Boy Soprano > > > SATB chorus > > > Strings The reasons I think the above is best are two: 1) It is practical. The voices are right in the middle, where a conductor who is used to orchestral/choral scores will be used to seeing them. Just like a concerto for choir. The piano is still near the voices, even if not below. The percussion are up out of the way. 2) Any other order can be disputed. Standard orchestral order really can't be. For an example of what I mean by 2), look at brass trio scores (trp, hn, trb). Most will put the trpt above the horn, but a few (Poulenc is one, I believe) put the horn on top to follow orchestral convention. One might prefer the former, but one really cannot argue with the latter. Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Score Order
>>Viola Cello Contrabass Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2<< Ugh. I'll see to it that this gets fixed. Orchestral order gives me what Darcy first listed. I would be inclined in this circumstance to put the voices first (Soloist on top), then everything else in orchestral score order. I'll see that the other ordering gets taken care of... -Original Message- From: Ray Horton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 8:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Finale] Score Order > Darcy James Argue wrote: > > > I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > > > > Timp > > Bells/Chimes > > Perc > > Harp > > Piano > > Boy Soprano > > SATB chorus > > Strings > > > > My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? > > The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but > > -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at > > the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano > > and chorus at the top instead. > > > > Comments? I thought it would make sense to see what Finale's Document Setup Wizard would do for this instrumentation in the "Choral" score order. Here it is, read it and weep: Viola Cello Contrabass Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 If that's not strange enough, here's the "Concert Band" order: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Viola Cello Contrabass Violin 1 Violin 2 Of course, both are absurd. But, if you take the first "Choral" setup and flip the lower strings down below the violins, it looks fairly good: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass although an argument could still be made for putting all three percussion staves at the bottom. _BUT_, the more I look at it, the more I like the "normal" orchestral order: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass Which is what you started with! (The Document Wizard for "orchestral" does get this right, BTW.) Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 2:19 AM -0400 6/02/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: My only objection to the percussion-on-top model is it looked, well... odd to me. Short of scores for percussion only, or just strings and percussion, I don't think I've ever seen a score with percussion as the top three staves. My example from Carmina Burana is one. If I were conducting it (and lord knows I'm not an experienced or even remotely qualified choral conductor, which is why I appreciate everyone's input on this), I think I would like the boy soprano and SATB on top. Also, it is the convention for jazz (which is what I'm most familiar with) to put the solo vocal line at the top of the score, Actually, this is a departure from the traditional norm (derived from show scores), which is to put the vocal line directly above the piano in the score, so that a pianist can rehearse the voices easily by reading the score. This seems to be the idea in Carmina Burana #22, whereas he reverts to orchestral order in the very next movement, #23. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 2:19 AM 06/02/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Short of scores for percussion only, or just strings and >percussion, I don't think I've ever seen a score with percussion as the >top three staves. Isn't this in pretty much the same category? Just strings, percussion, and voices. Voices, like strings, go below the other instruments. >Also, it is the convention for jazz (which is >what I'm most familiar with) to put the solo vocal line at the top of >the score, and drums at the bottom, so putting the boy soprano soloist >on top and the percussion lower down offers a certain comforting >familiarity (even if, as in this case, those conventions are totally >inappropriate). And aesthetically, it looks more balanced to me to >have the parts with lyrics at the top of the score. Well, the convention I'm most familiar with is opera, and in a full score of an opera, the parts with lyrics are rarely at the top of the score (only if it's a passage with just strings). For what it's worth, I just opened up my Boheme score to the beginning of act three, and I see one system where top staff is the Triangle, along with several others where it's the harp. >But not if it will cause the real conductor of this piece to go >"Huh???" I, too, would be curious to see what a real conductor thinks of this. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 02:48 AM, Mark D. Lew wrote: First off, thanks everyone on the score order stuff. Please still let me know if you think the order I decided on [chorus/harp/piano/timp/perc/strings] is nuts... I may have second, third, fourth thoughts on this... I wouldn't go so far as to call it nuts, but it does seem strange and pointless to me. I really don't see what the problem is with what you suggested. I don't know what order percussion is supposed to go within its own section, Usually timpani first, then pitched, then unpitched, but of course if the percussion players switch around a lot it's up for grabs. but the general scheme of percussion on top, voices in the middle, and strings on the bottom seems perfectly normal to me. Can you explain again what your objection to the "correct" order is? Reviewing the discussion, I get the message that it bothers you, but I still don't understand why. Thanks for your feedback, Mark. My only objection to the percussion-on-top model is it looked, well... odd to me. Short of scores for percussion only, or just strings and percussion, I don't think I've ever seen a score with percussion as the top three staves. If I were conducting it (and lord knows I'm not an experienced or even remotely qualified choral conductor, which is why I appreciate everyone's input on this), I think I would like the boy soprano and SATB on top. Also, it is the convention for jazz (which is what I'm most familiar with) to put the solo vocal line at the top of the score, and drums at the bottom, so putting the boy soprano soloist on top and the percussion lower down offers a certain comforting familiarity (even if, as in this case, those conventions are totally inappropriate). And aesthetically, it looks more balanced to me to have the parts with lyrics at the top of the score. I'm not exactly sure why a few people suggested putting the harp and piano above the percussion section, but that also looked better to me for some reason -- perhaps because (again) if I were conducting it, I would want those parts located physically close to the vocal parts so I could easily check the piano and harp voicings against the choral voicings. If it seems like there are several equally good solutions, naturally I'm inclined go with my own instincts. But not if it will cause the real conductor of this piece to go "Huh???" Strange and pointless is bad. I'm more than willing to override my instincts if I get assurances that going with orchestral score order here is not as weird as it looks (to me, at least). I'm still looking for input on this. I may well switch back to [perc/harp/piano/chorus/strings] if I get more comments like yours. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA No one likes us I don't know why We may not be perfect But heaven knows we try But all around, even our old friends put us down Let's drop the Big One and see what happens - Randy Newman, "Political Science" ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 6:23 PM 06/01/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: >My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? >The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but >-- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at >the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano >and chorus at the top instead. > >Comments? I'm no expert on score order, and for a lot of cases I don't even know the correct "rules" without looking them up in a book. On the other hand, as an ordinary musician (singer and choral director) who has looked at a lot of full scores of choral works, I would find it very strange to find the solo singer and chorus on the top. When looking for vocal parts in a full score, I always look down low and expect to find them right above the strings. If I were to encounter your score, my reaction would be "Hmm, that's weird. I wonder why the voices are on top?" Once I got past the initial surprise, I don't think it would confuse me any longer, so from my point of view I don't think there's any significant harm in putting the voices on top, but I still wonder what the gain is. Another poster mentioned that since the vocal performers are most likely to require the conductor's attention, they should be placed most prominently, ie, at the top. But I wonder if the top really is most prominent. Is that really where a conductor is going to look for them? I wouldn't. All of this is assuming we're talking about a full score. If it's a reduced score that the singers are going to read from, then I agree the voices should be on top, and below them should be something resembling a piano reduction. In that case there may be another staff or two along with the piano accompaniment -- above or below it as appropriate -- but certainly not the whole orchestra spelled out. (This model describes both the choral scores Noel detailed.) For what it's worth, my usual experience as choral director is to prepare the chorus in rehearsal and then hand them over to the conductor for performance. Typically I'll always have the reduction (ie, whatever the singers and accompanist are using) on my stand and use the full score only for reference. I don't know that I've ever conducted anything from a full score, though I've occasionally played piano accompaniment from one. [Darcy again, later:] >First off, thanks everyone on the score order stuff. Please still let >me know if you think the order I decided on >[chorus/harp/piano/timp/perc/strings] is nuts... I may have second, >third, fourth thoughts on this... I wouldn't go so far as to call it nuts, but it does seem strange and pointless to me. I really don't see what the problem is with what you suggested. I don't know what order percussion is supposed to go within its own section, but the general scheme of percussion on top, voices in the middle, and strings on the bottom seems perfectly normal to me. Can you explain again what your objection to the "correct" order is? Reviewing the discussion, I get the message that it bothers you, but I still don't understand why. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
I vote for this, based on making easiest-visible the elements most likely to need the conductor's attention during the conducting of the piece. Boy Soprano SATB Chorus Piano Harp Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass My rationale: the boy soprano and SATB chorus most likely are non-professional performers, however talented they may be. The conductor may be the most concerned about giving them the cues they need; locating their staves at the top makes this a quick reference for the conductor. The piano just is most naturally located with the chorals. The timp/bells/chimes in the middle are quick to find because they are...right in the middle. The strings probably would be fine with minimal cues, and they are left if their more usual position anyway, making it easy for the conductor. --Richard ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
At 6:23 PM -0400 6/01/03, Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Strings My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano and chorus at the top instead. Comments? I know it seems weird, but that looks right to me. The only thing that might be a little under discussion is whether the harp and piano should be UNDER the chorus instead of above (like in Orff's Carmina Burana #22. Tempus est iocundum which is all perc, piano, and chorus, as opposed to the next movement (all of 4 measures long!) where the piano is in the regular position. Or maybe whether the timpani should be the lowest percussion staff, on the idea of unpitched perc, keyboard perc, then timp. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 09:40 PM, Ray Horton wrote: I thought it would make sense to see what Finale's Document Setup Wizard would do for this instrumentation in the "Choral" score order. Here it is, read it and weep: [snip] Sweet jeebus Of course, both are absurd. But, if you take the first "Choral" setup and flip the lower strings down below the violins, it looks fairly good: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass I've decided that that is the arrangement that makes the most sense to me, so that's what I'm going with. _BUT_, the more I look at it, the more I like the "normal" orchestral order: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass Which is what you started with! (The Document Wizard for "orchestral" does get this right, BTW.) Right, that's how I ended up with the above. However, while it may have grown on you, it started to really grate on me, so now I'm going with the "chorus - harp - piano on top" model. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA No one likes us I don't know why We may not be perfect But heaven knows we try But all around, even our old friends put us down Let's drop the Big One and see what happens - Randy Newman, "Political Science" ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
> Darcy James Argue wrote: > > > I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > > > > Timp > > Bells/Chimes > > Perc > > Harp > > Piano > > Boy Soprano > > SATB chorus > > Strings > > > > My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? > > The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but > > -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at > > the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano > > and chorus at the top instead. > > > > Comments? I thought it would make sense to see what Finale's Document Setup Wizard would do for this instrumentation in the "Choral" score order. Here it is, read it and weep: Viola Cello Contrabass Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 If that's not strange enough, here's the "Concert Band" order: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Viola Cello Contrabass Violin 1 Violin 2 Of course, both are absurd. But, if you take the first "Choral" setup and flip the lower strings down below the violins, it looks fairly good: Boy Soprano SATB chorus Harp Piano Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass although an argument could still be made for putting all three percussion staves at the bottom. _BUT_, the more I look at it, the more I like the "normal" orchestral order: Timp Bells/Chimes Perc Harp Piano Boy Soprano SATB chorus Violin 1 Violin 2 Viola Cello Contrabass Which is what you started with! (The Document Wizard for "orchestral" does get this right, BTW.) Ray Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Score Order
My score order would be (unless the composer/conductor really wants something else) Bells Harp Piano Perc Timp Boy Sop SATB chorus Strings In piano-accompanied bell music the bells are usually found above the piano, and harps usually precede piano in an orch score. While I know that perc/etc usually come before any keybd instr., having them on top just looks wrong to me, except in the case of the bells (for the reason given above). If, tho, the timp/perc parts are extremely complex they may need to be on top where the conductor can follow them a little easier. my 2c worth (and that's shrinking thanks to a lower dollar yesterday!...) best to you all- Cecil Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] (personal) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.harrockhall.com - days til the new book is released. ZERO! ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
Darcy James Argue wrote: > I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > > Timp > Bells/Chimes > Perc > Harp > Piano > Boy Soprano > SATB chorus > Strings > > My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? > The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but > -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at > the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano > and chorus at the top instead. > > Comments? If there is there a separate choral score (including the soprano soloist), I'd put the soloist on the top staff, the the chorus, then the harp, then the piano.in that; for the conductor's score, I'd ask the conductor and composer how they want the full score to look. Consulting published sources, Oxford University Press published a setting of "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day", by John Gardiner, scored for Mixed voices with piano and optional accompaniment, where the accompaniment is tambourine and side drum; there, the chorus was on top, the percussion (on two separate one-line staves) was next, and piano was at the bottom.. OTH, from the same publisher, in John Rutter's setting of "The Heavanly Aeroplane", scored for chorus, piano, and double bass, the chorus is at the top, the piano next, and the double bass at the bottom. ns ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Score Order
on 6/1/03 3:23 PM, Darcy James Argue at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'm working on engraving a piece with the following instrumentation: > > Timp > Bells/Chimes > Perc > Harp > Piano > Boy Soprano > SATB chorus > Strings > > My question is, what score order would you choose for this ensemble? > The above order would be (I believe) the standard orchestral order, but > -- call me biassed, but it looks odd to me to have the percussion at > the top like that. I think my instinct would be to put the boy soprano > and chorus at the top instead. My first reaction to the list would be: Harp Piano Bells/Chimes Perc Timp Boy Soprano SATB chorus Strings This would most closely approximate what I've been used to working on. Altho, depending on what instrument would be the 'lead' most of the time, I would move that instrument/voice to the top of the score. Perhaps the voice or voices. I base this on an opera I worked on for the last six months. But that was full orchestra and had a more traditional order. HTH. *** J.D. Thomas ThomaStudios West Linn OR http://www.thomastudios.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of checks. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] score order reversed
The down and dirty: Use the staff tool Drag the staves into whatever position you want them to be Go to the Staff menu and select Resort Staves Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Tom Godfrey wrote: [After editing a band score] the 3rd percussion part is on the top, and the 1st flute is on the bottom. der could is there an easy way to fix it? Yes. Consult the documentation for the "sort staves" option of the Staff tool menu. ns ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] score order reversed
Tom Godfrey wrote: > [After editing a band score] the 3rd percussion part is on the top, and the > 1st flute is on the bottom. der could is there an easy way to fix it? Yes. Consult the documentation for the "sort staves" option of the Staff tool menu. ns ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
