Fw: dry legs
This message is from: "Tom Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: dry legs > Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 1:23 AM > > Good job again Dr. Jacobson. I agree strongly! Another veterinary opinion > and I could not agree more or have said it any better. Dr. Tom Hans > -- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: dry legs > > Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:07 PM > > > > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I'd like to make a point of clarification. I'm afraid that Carol's > > definition of "good" legs on a Fjord may be confusing or misleading for > > some people. Whether Fjords have "dry, clean legs" or not does depend > > somewhat on parentage and conformation, but it has more to do with the > > horse's physical condition (i.e. body fat percent) and body type. If a > > horse is in lean condition, his tendons are going to be more defined, > > making one more likely to say he has "dry, clean legs". On the other > > hand, if that horse is slightly overweight, fat is going to fill in > > around those tendons and joints, and they will not be as defined, leading > > someone to say the legs are not as dry and clean. Believe me, there are > > 16 starved horses at our county fairgrounds right now that have the > > driest, cleanest legs you have ever seen! Also, when have you heard a > > big draft horse described as having dry legs? You may hear it > > occasionally, but not very often. And what are many Fjords? Small > > drafts. > > > > As an equine veterinarian, I palpate many horse's tendons, and I can tell > > you that, for the most part, a tendon is a tendon. The most superficial > > of the flexor tendons that you can feel does have sharp edges, while the > > slightly deeper one has rounded edges. If we could judge 20 horses' > > legs, and then see all 20 horses' tendons laid out on a table, there's > > not a single one of us who could accurately pick which tendons belonged > > to which horse, no matter whether we had thought their legs were dry and > > clean, or spongy. > > > > Like Carol, I have seen many Fjords, and I feel very comfortable saying > > that, in general, the lighter bodied, slightly finer-boned Fjords would > > be classified by many as having drier, cleaner legs than would the > > intermediate body style or draft type Fjords. But do the lighter Fjords > > have stronger, sounder legs? No, not at all. In fact, it's more likely > > the other way around. To give an example with some of the horses that > > Carol mentioned, in the pictures I have seen of BDF Torolf, he is very > > lean and seems to be what most people would consider more the > > finer-boned, riding type Fjord. Gjest, on the other hand, seems to be > > more of the intermediate or all-purpose body type. In the pictures I > > have seen, one would not call Gjest's legs as dry and clean as Torolf's. > > Does this mean Torolf's legs are any better or stronger or sounder than > > Gjest's? Not a bit. > > > > So here's why I'm writing and making this distinction. Fjords in this > > country for the most part were historically the intermediate or draft > > type. More recently, the slightly finer body-type Fjord is gaining in > > popularity, but I believe are still a minority as far as total Fjord > > numbers go. Also, many Fjords tend to be kept in slightly overweight > > body condition. So most Fjords will not fit Carol's definition of good > > legs because their tendons and joints will not be sharply defined and > > delineated. Does this mean they have bad legs? No. On the other hand, > > does this mean I think "spongy" legs with no definition are better? No. > > As with many things, I believe moderation is the key; Somewhere in > > between is best. No one would argue that good, clean legs are desirable, > > but "dry"? I'm not sure we need to go too far in that direction. > > > > Brian Jacobsen, DVM > > Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch > > Salisbury, North Carolina > > > > > > > > >...To me describing a horse's legs as dry and hard means - not soft and > > spongy, which, unfortunately, can be a characteristic of the Fjordhorse. > > A characteristic good breeders everywhere are trying to eliminate. > > > > > When you feel a horse's legs and the tendon is really well defined, and > > feels a bit sharp, rather than soft and rounded. . . this is very good! > > You should immediately be able to feel all the very distinct parts of the > > leg, rather than the tendon and canon melding into each other. The leg > > shouldn't feel fleshy. Definitely not fleshy.-- That's what dry legs > > are. If the tendon is strong and "sharp", tight, and distinct, the leg > > is > > considered "clean." If you make a habit of feeling the legs of as many > > horses as you come across, you'll begin to distinguish between the good, > > bad, and inbetween legs. > > > > _
Re:Motivation
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, You know, I appreciate hearing about bloodlines, trots, clean legs, etc. If the motivation for it comes from "self promotion" I still learn the same amount - as long as I evaluate all new information for myself - rather than taking anything I read as gospel. Given how little I know about the breed - any new discussion of bloodlines is an improvement on my ignorance - no matter what the motivation. And, given that it takes precious time to post a long discussin of bloodlines - I do not really care if the motivation that produced that effort comes from "capitalistic" motives. Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dutch bred horses, endless self promotion, temperament
This message is from: "Margaret Strachan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I just have to make a few comments. First of all it is not possible to lump all horses bred in a given country as having the same temperament or other traits. Such generalization is wrong. A tendency toward certain traits can sometimes be observed. I happen to own a Hjerter Knaegt granddaughter who is very active, yet nice to be around. I have a Norwegian born Tunfeld daughter (Tunfeld stood in Holland for several years) who is also a wonderful horse, but very different in type and temperament. To say they are the same because their ancestors came from Holland would be nonsensical. You have to look at horses as individuals. With regard to stallion temperament--in my opinion, a horse who requires 2 handlers to safely restrain him in hand is either unsound in his temperament, or has not been adequately handled or prepared for the environment he is being exposed to. The horse is clearly stressed, and unhappy--if the behavior is plain old testosterone overload, and the handling or environmental issues have been addressed I do believe the owners should consider gelding the horse no matter how beautiful he or his offspring are. My reasoning is that the horse has a poor quality of life and is not safe to be around. I have personal experience with one of those 2 handler horses, having been one of the handlers. This TB horse was the best conformed horse I have ever seen, then or since and had the quality of movement to match. I was there when he was foaled and know he was handled correctly. Yes, he performed well under saddle and was a magnificent ride, but was a unhappy, angry animal. This horse was gelded and went on to several national level grand prix dressage titles under an Olympic level rider (Hilda Gurney). I believe he was shown under the name Second Page. As a gelding this horse was a pleasant tempered, happy performer. Anything I ride or see I compare to how his gaits felt and looked. As a stallion he might have sired some top foals, but he certainly would not have had much of a life. A stallion who does not handle his testosterone level safely when handled correctly does have a defect in my book--one that can easily be corrected. We stand 2 Fjord stallions at our farm and if it took 2 handlers to move them about the farm, neither one would be here. I consider safety to be an utmost concern when handling any horse. We all know temperament is inheritable. It is ludicrous to not consider temperament first over even athletic ability (albeit a close second)because if the horse is unmanageable or even just a chore to handle what is he worth? Not much to me. Here in racehorse country believe it or not temperament is a big issue. The horse can't make money if he won't run despite all the ability in the world. Individuals of certain sire lines are are looked at very closely before purchase as the lines have a reputation for poor temperament. Awhile back we boarded 17 racing QH yearlings for a local farm. All were by the top 3 sires in the industry. You could walk out in the pasture and pick the sires by the temperament shown by the yearlings. I don't think it's an accident that the sire who behaves like an old gelding even on the way to the breeding shed has been by far the best sire despite having the weakest bloodlines of the top 3. This stallion (A Classic Dash, for those wondering) refutes the correlation that obnoxious behavior means athletic performance. He is a millionaire winner of the All American Futurity. His foals are great to be around--and athletic too. My own stallion, Valbjorn, Vivian Creigh's Marnix, and many other Fjord stallions also refute this. Horses must be manageable in order to be useful. Self promotion. I enjoy hearing about Equitana participants, I liked reading about the ladies from Colorado who performed with the country singer. There have been other posts where people have talked about their horse's accomplishments in a manner that expresses true pride. I suppose you could call this self promotion, but there is a more altrusitic nature to these acts, and they are positive acts for the breed in general. When individuals have posted with genuine pride that they have accomplished something new with their horse, I think most of us are pleasd to read about it. Many recent posts have been very informative about bloodlines and other issues without crowing or tooting. I think Ursula was irked that Carol's post reeked of self promotion and nothing more, there was no obvious altruism or effort to truly educate, at least to me. Margaret Strachan Village Farm Nuevo, CA Toughing out the shirtsleeve weather here in Southern California
Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #355
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone! I was very shocked when I heard about this dog attack. My husband verified when he raised thoroughbreds, they had enormous problems with stray dog packs in his area. I guess it was so bad they had to carry protection on their rides and keep the foals as close to the house as possible!! I am an owner of a boxer I adopted from the Humane Society. I have had him about 5 years now, and he has been through obedience training which we constantly continue to work on together. His temperment is great with people, but he is extremely aggressive toward other animals. I would think any dog owner with a brain would know the temperment of their dog, and handle it accordingly. Clancey (my boxer) is NEVER allowed outside the fence without a lease. Not only does this allow me continual control, but it also helps remind him that certain behavior is absolutely not tolerated. He has never attacked another animal since he came into our home. In every area I have lived, a leash law has been in affect. For those people who are having such problems, would this be a possible solution? Of course, ideally, one would hope the owner would control the dog, but that wish is at best unrealistic. As for the pellet gun.I would think by the time one would know the dog is aggressive, the chance to use the pellet gun safely would be long gone. I do know there are certain behaviors we humans can adopt to help control such a situation, but to be honest, I cannot remember all of what our instructor taught, so am hesitant to attempt to repeat. I do know that with a boxer, who is bred similarly to other "fighting dogs", movement can worsen the situation. I also know that if the aggressor sees any subserviant behavior, this can assist in calming the situation, although how this could be possible with a horse is beyond me. It appears the only solution is to get involved with the enforcing of laws, and utilizing any regulations already in place to force the dog owners to become more responsible. Lynda, temporarily from Texas, where it was VERY windy today.
Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #355
This message is from: "Starfire Farm, L.L.C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kathy's story is a horrible one, and I was really glad to read that the people and horses are okay. A couple of things I wanted to say about some of the posted responses. First, before you decide to carry a gun, think twice. It sounds like this animal was either too near its owner, or too near the horses and riders to have anyone aim a firearm at it. Maybe Kathy could confirm or deny this. I, of course, wasn't there. I can only speculate. I hate to think of a person or horse being shot accidently. Reference vicious dogs, having been an animal control officer in the past, I always look twice at a Pit Bull (by that I mean the type one usually sees in the company of irresponsible dog owners, not the AKC American Stafforshire Terrier type!) In the municipality where I worked, we enacted a Vicious Dog law, which was determined by the dog's behaviour, not by its particualr breed. A dog could be determined to be vicious if it bit a human or other animal, and it it was shown that it couldn't be controlled. This usually required temporary seizure of the animal, then a court case to determine if the dog's actions met the definition of vicious. Unfortunately, we did destroy several dogs, but we also, I believe, kept a number of people and other animals from being bitten and/or killed by these dogs. Good luck, Kathy, on your hunt for the irresponsible owner of this dog. Beth
dry legs
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd like to make a point of clarification. I'm afraid that Carol's definition of "good" legs on a Fjord may be confusing or misleading for some people. Whether Fjords have "dry, clean legs" or not does depend somewhat on parentage and conformation, but it has more to do with the horse's physical condition (i.e. body fat percent) and body type. If a horse is in lean condition, his tendons are going to be more defined, making one more likely to say he has "dry, clean legs". On the other hand, if that horse is slightly overweight, fat is going to fill in around those tendons and joints, and they will not be as defined, leading someone to say the legs are not as dry and clean. Believe me, there are 16 starved horses at our county fairgrounds right now that have the driest, cleanest legs you have ever seen! Also, when have you heard a big draft horse described as having dry legs? You may hear it occasionally, but not very often. And what are many Fjords? Small drafts. As an equine veterinarian, I palpate many horse's tendons, and I can tell you that, for the most part, a tendon is a tendon. The most superficial of the flexor tendons that you can feel does have sharp edges, while the slightly deeper one has rounded edges. If we could judge 20 horses' legs, and then see all 20 horses' tendons laid out on a table, there's not a single one of us who could accurately pick which tendons belonged to which horse, no matter whether we had thought their legs were dry and clean, or spongy. Like Carol, I have seen many Fjords, and I feel very comfortable saying that, in general, the lighter bodied, slightly finer-boned Fjords would be classified by many as having drier, cleaner legs than would the intermediate body style or draft type Fjords. But do the lighter Fjords have stronger, sounder legs? No, not at all. In fact, it's more likely the other way around. To give an example with some of the horses that Carol mentioned, in the pictures I have seen of BDF Torolf, he is very lean and seems to be what most people would consider more the finer-boned, riding type Fjord. Gjest, on the other hand, seems to be more of the intermediate or all-purpose body type. In the pictures I have seen, one would not call Gjest's legs as dry and clean as Torolf's. Does this mean Torolf's legs are any better or stronger or sounder than Gjest's? Not a bit. So here's why I'm writing and making this distinction. Fjords in this country for the most part were historically the intermediate or draft type. More recently, the slightly finer body-type Fjord is gaining in popularity, but I believe are still a minority as far as total Fjord numbers go. Also, many Fjords tend to be kept in slightly overweight body condition. So most Fjords will not fit Carol's definition of good legs because their tendons and joints will not be sharply defined and delineated. Does this mean they have bad legs? No. On the other hand, does this mean I think "spongy" legs with no definition are better? No. As with many things, I believe moderation is the key; Somewhere in between is best. No one would argue that good, clean legs are desirable, but "dry"? I'm not sure we need to go too far in that direction. Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina >...To me describing a horse's legs as dry and hard means - not soft and spongy, which, unfortunately, can be a characteristic of the Fjordhorse. A characteristic good breeders everywhere are trying to eliminate. > When you feel a horse's legs and the tendon is really well defined, and feels a bit sharp, rather than soft and rounded. . . this is very good! You should immediately be able to feel all the very distinct parts of the leg, rather than the tendon and canon melding into each other. The leg shouldn't feel fleshy. Definitely not fleshy.-- That's what dry legs are. If the tendon is strong and "sharp", tight, and distinct, the leg is considered "clean." If you make a habit of feeling the legs of as many horses as you come across, you'll begin to distinguish between the good, bad, and inbetween legs. ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Carol and bloodlines
This message is from: "Dianna Saleh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Re: Carol and bloodlines. I'd like to say that I find everything Carol has to say very interesting. I'd love to hear more. I e-mailed her and told her I'd like it if she'd write a book about Fjord bloodlines. Maybe I'd be the only one to read it, but I'd probably wear it out just like her other book. I think even if the day comes that I know as much as she does there will still be something to learn. I also enjoy hearing people talk about the horses they love. I think she is honestly expressing how she feels and isn't trying to deceive anyone. Just as we're proud when our children accomplish good things we can also be when our horses go on to accomplish good things, whatever they may be. I was glad to share in her joy. Dianna Saleh Fawn Creek Fjord Horses
to Misha, on temperament
This message is from: Nathan Lapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> misha nogha wrote: I suppose I am going to get a lot of flack for this comment, but I had to say it. I once gelded a stallion I had, not a Fjord, who had nearly perfect conformation, was a super athlete, but was a real nasty fellow. Good for you! Too many breeders don't have the guts, or the honesty, to see and admit mistakes in breeding. I haven't been in the horse business long enough to know breeders' policy on this, but my sister Rachel and I have extensive experience with dogs. Australian Shepherds, in particular, have been bred too much for color and show performance. Their owner/breeders will make any number of excuses for bad temperament--he bites because he had a bad experience as a pup; someone kept her tied too much; they don't like men because they were once abused by a man; etc.. This highly intelligent, high performance breed now has a bad reputation for disposition. Because, I believe, too many breeders didn't have the courage to cull when their dog bit. I know how it feels--you lose sleep thinking about ending this beautiful dog's breeding career, or worse, having him put down. But it's a must in responsible breeding. An old gentleman who used to own an animal research and breeding farm once said that the nice thing about breeding pigs versus dogs is that "you can eat your mistakes." Barbara Lyn
Dog attacks
This message is from: Nancy Hotovy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I guess I can't help but get into the conversation of dog attacks. My dog attack happened while conditioning our stallion "Anvil's Torbjorn" for his trotting test in Woodstock for the Norwegian Evaluation. While hooked to our cart going down a most familiar stretch of road with myself and our dog in the cart, a very small (under 10 lbs.) dog came out of the high brush along the roadside and latched onto Toby's rear fetlock. It happened so fast I barely saw the dog. Of course it surprised Toby also and he kicked to get it off and caught me square in the face, must have been off balance because he fell on his face, flipped upside down and came up facing the cart! The only one with no scrapes was the dog who never left the cart. Nothing on the harness or cart broke but Toby was so pinched in, I couldn't get him loose so I just held him and talked to him until help came by (When I was thrown from the cart I landed in a patch of poison oak, talk about luck!). They took me to the emergency room for stitches and my boss (a vet) came to look at Toby and found the teeth marks in his ankle and gravel imbedded in his face. Toby was excellent in the show ring but it did take a while for him to be comfortable driving down that stretch of road. I now carry Mace even though it would not have helped me avoid the above accident. Have never had to use it but did get it out when 2 Great Danes came through their fence and challenged me while trail riding. I finally got them to back down but they sure did look big and made my gelding pretty nervous. Actually I carry the Mace for a little security from people also - I do a lot of riding in back country by myself and some of the people I've came across are scarier than any dog. By the way, alway check the wind direction when using Mace or pepper spray! Nancy Hotovy from Michigan where the mares are shedding big time and the foals are coming soon.
breeds...dogs and horses
This message is from: Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > My purpose > here is not to single out a group of "dangerous" dog breeds, because I don't > believe that you can generalize about dog breeds anymore than you can about > horse breeds, and making a particular dog breed illegal is like making it > illegal to take Arabs or Thoroughbreds trail riding because they're high > strung. > Interestingalthough I agree in part of what is said here...I'm wondering though, if you were asked to place a child or beginning rider on either a arab, a TB or a fjord...which one would you choose? Exceptions or not...I'll take the fjord everytime! :o) Ingrid
vicious dogs
This message is from: Ingrid Ivic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi all - it is the Cathyfrom Misty Meadows B&B and Fjords in Victoria > signing back on after a couple of months off. We were visiting my brother > in Thailand for a month, then needed to get caught up with all the work > around here. But we're back after an absolutely horrendous weekend and with > a request for everyone's help. > > This weekend, while on a trail ride in a local park, three of our beloved > fjords were attacked by a pit bull. > Cathy...so sorry to read about the pitbull attack! Most pitiful of all is the owner's refusal to take blame for all of this. Having experienced a dog attacking, while on horseback myself, I sympathize greatly. A horrible situation for all concerned. Ingrid in Ohio
Re: Hjerter-Knaeght bloodlines
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - When I was talking about the special characteristics I've seen in the bloodlines of the Danish-born stallion, Hjerter-Knaeght, I mentioned that they all seem to have "dry, hard, clean legs." Jean asked what I meant by that. To me describing a horse's legs as dry and hard means - not soft and spongy, which, unfortunately, can be a characteristic of the Fjordhorse. A characteristic good breeders everywhere are trying to eliminate. When you feel a horse's legs and the tendon is really well defined, and feels a bit sharp, rather than soft and rounded. . . this is very good! You should immediately be able to feel all the very distinct parts of the leg, rather than the tendon and canon melding into each other. The leg shouldn't feel fleshy. Definitely not fleshy.-- That's what dry legs are. If the tendon is strong and "sharp", tight, and distinct, the leg is considered "clean." If you make a habit of feeling the legs of as many horses as you come across, you'll begin to distinguish between the good, bad, and inbetween legs. Along with all the other characteristics I mentioned about H.K. offspring; such as dark color, good markings, well defined heads with big eyes & big jowels, . . . I forgot to mention that they ALL HAVE great hooves. Very big and round hooves --- farriers love those horses. Even little Maryke (13.2hands) , the dam of all the horses I mentioned the other day, has very big, round hooves. Her H.K. sire is very apparent. So, as I said, I'm fascinated by what the different bloodlines produce, and it's particularly interesting when you get a breeding stallion that consistently produces certain characteristics. People sometimes mention that Holland has darker colored horses than Norway. Well, I suppose it's possible. I don't know. If so, it could be due, partly, to Hjerter Knaeght himself (the old Jack of Hearts). Afterall, he was the longest standing stallion in Dutch history -- about twenty years. He produced a lot of daughters in that time who also produced offsping, and passed on the rich color. Think about it - Approved Dutch Studbook stallions routinely breed upwards of 60 mares a year. And that's conservative. Gjest was breeding 85 mares a year before we imported him. The Norwegian-born stallion, Astrix, who has been standing in Holland many years, has bred as many as 120 mares a year --- live cover! --- I guess you know what your stallions produce when you've got that many foals to rate each year. Regards, Carol Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
MWFHC Minutes
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sharon L. Falck) Midwest Fjord Horse Club Minutes February 6,1999 The 1999 winter meeting of the Midwest Fjord Horse Club was held at Long Hollow Pointe Resort in Galena, Illinois on Saturday, February 6,1999. There were 99 members and five guests present. President, Tom Hans called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. New members were welcomed and President Hans thanked Howard and Sophie Fiedler, Pat Holland and Sharon Falck for making the arrangements for the winter meeting. The Secretarys report was read and approved. The Treasurer reported a beginning balance of $4,371.38, Income of $9526.65,Expenses of $5535.81; Net Income of $3990.84, Total assets of $8362.22. Upon recommendation of the Executive Committee, the treasurer invested $5,000 in a 9 month CD at 5.63%per quarter. This leaves a balance on hand of $3362.22. The treasurers report was approved. John Crawford, chair of the ByLaws Committee, reported they reviewed the By Laws of the NFHR, the Northeast Fjord Group and the Pacific Northwest Promotional Group and have a draft of the MWFHC By Laws completed. They are being reviewed by an Iowa lawyer to verify that the wording is in compliance with Iowa law for Non Profit Corporations because MWFHC is incorporated in Iowa. As soon as the review process is completed a final draft will be sent to the members for their perusal. Final adoption will be voted on at the July meeting in Blue Earth,Minnesota. Nancy Hotovy, Show Committee Chair, reported that the committee will hold a conference call in two weeks. The committee will be discussing adding a Turn Out Class and Novice classes for the Obstacle Classes at the Upper Midwest Fjord Horse Show in July. Nominating Committee Chair, Susie Sadlon reported that they have been working on getting a slate of nominees for the positions of Vice President(President Elect), Secretary, and Treasurer. At the time the following people have indicated they would like to be considered: Vice President-Dr. Joan Kepros and Dr. Tom Hans, Secretary-Ann Hans and Treasurer-Sharon Falck, Fred Brandt. If anyone else is interested please contact Susie Sadlon, Sophie Fiedler or Rich Hotovy. The ballot with the proposed slate will be sent to the members to be returned to the committee chair by a set date and the results will be announced at the July meeting. Dr. Kepros expressed concern that the club newsletters are not being sent out on a monthly basis and that there does not seem to be much information about the MWFHC in the Fjord Herald . She suggested that a survey be sent to the members of MWFHC to find out what their interests are and how they would be willing to volunteer to help the club. There was also a great deal of discussion about how the MWFHC could be better represented on the NFHR Board of Directors. Moved and Seconded to send a letter to each member of the NFHR Board of Directors recommending a change in the NFHR By Laws to elect two(2) members to the BOD from each geographic region that the NFHR serves. The terms of the office to be staggered to maintain continuance of governance within the board. Motion carried. NFHR Evaluation Committee Chair, Nancy Hotovy, reported a proposal had been submitted to the NFHR Board of Directors to increase the number of evaluators and to improve the evaluation process. No action has been taken. Feedback from the 1998 evaluations was considered and changes were recommended to the NFHR Board of Directors. Moved and seconded to put the MWFHC minutes on the Fjord Digest. Motion carried. Cynthia Madden, NFHR Education Committee member, reported that the committee had presented the following goals to the NFHR and they have been accepted. 1.. To use the Fjord Herald as a vehicle to help educate the NFHR members. 2.. To provide education to the general NFHR membership through electronic means, such as NFHR Web site, Fjord e-mail listing and Fjord on Line Chat Group. 3.. To provide an Educational Incentive Program for the existing Regional Area groups(Northeast, Midwest and Northwest) and other interested individuals, which includes seed money to sponsor educational clinics , workshops or seminars for the general membership. 4.. To develop a Long Distance Learning Program through a variety of Educational materials. 5.. To support the NFHR Board of Directors in planning an Executive Retreat during the annual meeting each year. 6.. To sponsor and " Excellence in Education" award for an individual who has contributed to supporting the educational goals of the NFHR. 7.. To establish and Educational Fund to support educational activities for both the Education Committee and the general membership. Madden, will forward a copy of the draft of the Education Incentive Program Application to the MWFHC Secretary . Moved and seconded to appoint a committee to investigate the possibility of having an educational clinic on Monday, July 26 the day prior to the Upper Midwest Fjord Ho
Re: Rude Postings
This message is from: "DUANE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everyone, I'm mostly a lurker but as many of you know I do respond personally to home addresses if I have a question or comment to make. I thought that the comments made to Carol were very harsh and should have been made in private. Maybe a less cutting message could have been posted on the list for everyone to comment on themselves. As for someone who is just learning about the Fjords, Carol's and everyone's comments and lessons etc. is appreciated and is invaluable to me as a non Fjord owner. We are all in this together and we don't need to to bring others down. If I wanted that I'd go back to highschool. Best of luck to you all and I value all your insights and opinions. If I don't care for what someone said I either don't read or hit delete! Sincerely, Duane White Wisconsin
Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #357
This message is from: Joel a harman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If it quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. This will win me NO brownie points, however I'm not a fan of either of the ladies having it out in the open in #357 but point well taken by Ursula. Carol is very good at promoting Carol & Ursula is very good at promoting Ursula. I feel it is important to realize tooting of one's own horn & I commend Ursula for pointing out that it is a duck. As the welder replied yrs ago when I asked him if needed a light, "Hell no! I make my own light!", as he struck an arc. I will make my own brownie points. So all you bleeding hearts out there fire away at me. Personally I'd rather see replies on the line then everyone can see how vindictive you are. Carol, we all know you sell fjords. Please give it a rest. Preach to the unbelievers for a change Ursula, please post something nice for a change. I'm sorry if I offended anyone - all I can say is ADJUST! with respect & regards Joel Harman ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Re: dog
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Same thing is going to happen to this dog near a friend's house that was stalking me Lars and me down the street. Merek
Re: Questions
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:30 PM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Hello everyone! > >Thanks so much for all of your answers, I really do appreciate it. > >Mike, I will be calling you soon for those DNA kits. I talked with you once >about these two particular horses, but I know they have never been DNA typed, >although I THINK some of their parents have been. > Ok no problem. >Looks like we will be traveling to CA in 2000! > That is a long way from Michigan! Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rude Postings
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 99-02-18 05:58:22 EST, you write: << Trust ole Ursula to take it upon herself to show you the error of your ways, yet once againhang in there spring is coming and then I'll be too busy to care what you write. respectfully, Ursula >> Dear Ursula, This attack was totally unnessessary and mean spirited for this list. There is nothing " respectful " about it. Shame, Shame. Lisa Pedersen
Re: Questions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello everyone! Thanks so much for all of your answers, I really do appreciate it. Mike, I will be calling you soon for those DNA kits. I talked with you once about these two particular horses, but I know they have never been DNA typed, although I THINK some of their parents have been. Looks like we will be traveling to CA in 2000! Thanks again, Lynda
Re: Re: Dutch Fjords?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to Misha and Carol: Carols is absolutly right about Holland and Norway. They are both committed to breeding correct Norwegian Fjords and there is no outcrossing except possibly accidental! Carol is also right in saying that the Dutch do not judge "character" or behaviour in hand, but in the IBOP test. Part of the test is to tack up or harness the horse in the middle of the arena and mount the horse or carriage. Sometimes people will use a header for this sometimes not. But if the particular horse is not obedient or is unruly during the tack up and mount he will be severely penalized for it and may not receive an "A" because of it even though his actual performance was good. Also the Dutch IBOP test are very definitely judged on how well the horse performs his test. It is not attitude and obedience alone. The horse must be on the bit and show two good trots. In riding it is judged just as a dressage test is. If the horse is above or behind the bit he will be penalized for it. I spent two weeks learner judging the Fjord IBOP tests and trust me good attitude and forwardness were hardly the only criteria looked for. I'm sure if a horse repeatedly smashed through the fences with the best of intentions he would be penalized for his lack of athletic ability. I have also participated in several IBOP's myself so am quite familiar with what's called for. I do take exception with Carol's use of "dummy down' the breed. First of all athleticism and temperment are not related. You can have a very athletic forward horse who is quiet and well behaved in hand. Carol sometimes makes it sound as though it is desirable for a stallion to act up as it proves that he is an athletic individual, this is not true I believe what she means to say is if we were to choose our breeding stallions based on behavior alone, ignoring excellent conformation, pedigree and performance ability, we would be doing the breed a great disservice. That is true. However it is always nice to see a well behaved well presented individual in hand of any breed. There is also a big difference between naughty, testing behavior and mean behavior. Some stallions do not take well to being put in their place and will react by coming back at their handler others are not so aggressive and will more easily repent. The quietest Fjord I ever owned is an Oswin daughter Hedi who is a ster mare in the Dutch system. She was in my pair for many years and was very fast and competitve in the hazards. yet If we put a novice rider on her she would move out on the trail at a veritable snail's pace. I used her to teach several beginners. She now is in a theraputic riding program here in VT where she will excell because of her quiet, layed back temperment. Talk about from ridiculous to sublime. In one sport she had to be fast, forward, up and aggressive in the other quiet and steady. Her quiet temperment in no way hindered her athletic ability . Please let's not confuse bad behavior with athletic ability they simply aren't related. Vivian Creigh
Novice questions + Carol's comments.
This message is from: "Janne Myrdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Lynda temp. from Texas. I for one, am glad you posted these questions. They are not novice to me, but very well put and even though I've had my fjords for several years now, I will look forward to the numerous answers I am sure you will get, as I am curious about alot of the same stuff. Thanks for posting them. P.S. You should have cheked out N. Dakota before you decided where to move, smile. And as for Carol and her educational pedigree postings, KEEP IT UP, please! It is very educational to those of us not having been in the breed for long. I for one am eaqting up all I can get from Norway, Holland etc, so I will know how to ever proceed if I breed my mares again, and to find the "stuff" I am looking for. You should be proud of your breeding as I hope all of us should be, and as for eloquent writing, it is refreshing in a world of mostly movies, videos, nintendos and lack of good language. Greetings from Janne in N. Dakota where it was 10 below this morning, and I am jazzed to see my coming two year old gelding Tinngutten doing just great ground driving etc.
Novice questions + Carol's comments.
This message is from: "Janne Myrdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Lynda temp. from Texas. I for one, am glad you posted these questions. They are not novice to me, but very well put and even though I've had my fjords for several years now, I will look forward to the numerous answers I am sure you will get, as I am curious about alot of the same stuff. Thanks for posting them. P.S. You should have cheked out N. Dakota before you decided where to move, smile. And as for Carol and her educational pedigree postings, KEEP IT UP, please! It is very educational to those of us not having been in the breed for long. I for one am eating up all I can get from Norway, Holland etc, so I will know how to ever proceed if I breed my mares again, and to find the "stuff" I am looking for. You should be proud of your breeding as I hope all of us should be, and as for eloquent writing, it is refreshing in a world of mostly movies, videos, nintendos and lack of good language. Greetings from Janne in N. Dakota where it was 10 below this morning, and I am jazzed to see my coming two year old gelding Tinngutten doing just great ground driving etc.
Re: More dog stories
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello List Members, THINK SPRING! Regarding dog stories; A friend of ours that used to raise sheep says they practiced the three 's' routine-shoot, shovel and shut up. A neighbors little dog used to run out to the road to bark at our draft horses, until one day when he 'overshot' and went right under them and out the other side. He never bothered us again! Its starting to be shedding time here in Michigan, to be followed by much brushing. Regards, Bernadine Karns Nottawa Crossing Fjords
Re: Pit bulls
This message is from: Sessoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gosh, Cathy, what a horrible story. I am always afraid for my Little Crickett mixing with dogs when we ride in the the woods in view of a road with houses ... but I had never thought to be frightened for Dorina too. I have to wade through a pack of neighborhood dogs every time I go down my 1/8th mile driveway whether I am walking to the mailbox with my Labbies, or riding Dorina with or without Crickett by our side. The pack includes a Chow, a shy Rottie, two vicious Min Schnauzers and a few mutts. Thank heavens, so far, I am able to control the pack with my voice and Crickett puts her hackles up, keeps her nose to herself, and trots along beside us ignoring the lot of them. Very well put about dog laws, Becky. I've had people point at my sweet and gentle natured Labbies and hiss, "That's one of those pit bulls!" I have argued against breed specific laws for years. You can't punish someone before a crime is committed. Here are some trail tips whether you are hiking or riding: ~ If you are on a trail and run across people with a dog/dogs. It is considered good manners for the dog people to put their dogs on lead and step off the trail until you pass. Be patient, it may take them a minute if they have a young dog with them. ~ If they don't, you should request that they snap a lead on before you attempt to pass. ~ If they don't have a lead, inquire if they have a hold of the collar/the dog before you pass. ~ If they are not cooperating, you stay put until they pass and are on down the trail. Dogs are more excited by moving people and animals. (I see this didn't help in Cathy's case, the horses stopped but the dog still attacked) ~ Try to politely train the dog people you run across who don't have a clue - there are a lot of them out there. And keep in mind that, unfortunately, a lot of them have more dog than they can handle and don't know it yet. Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee, USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dorina ~ NFR Aagot ~:~ Fjordinger Caper ~ Carly ~ Crickett ~:~ Labradors
Re: Dutch Fjords?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - I'd like to try and answer Misha's questions regarding Dutch Fjords. > >Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:29:36 -0800 >From: misha nogha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Dutch Fjords? > >This message is from: misha nogha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I need those in the know to clarify something for me about the Dutch bred >Fjords. On an earlier mail list some folks mentioned that the Dutch allow >outcrossing as early as three generations back. People mentioned that they >might have been crossed with Arabs. Is this truth or rumor? "Outcrossing as early as three generations back." I guess you mean "outcrossing" to other breeds. - This is - MISINFORMATION, not "rumor." Fjords are pure-bred in Holland. There are no other breeds mixed in at all. --- The misinformation regarding "three generations" comes, I believe, from the fact the Dutch do not want any related horses in the first THREE GENERATIONS. Frankly, I don't know if there is a hard and fast rule against it. I belileve, in a lot of things, the Dutch have similar feelings as do Americans about an individual's freedom to do what they wish to do. --- I remember a mare I saw at a show in Holland many years ago. She was fabulous, and I was interested to buy her. When I spoke to the Studbook about her, they kind of brushed off my inquiry, but I persisted and persisted, until finally they pulled out her pedigree and showed me that she had the same grandfather on both sides of the pedigree. Then they told me she also had a history of behavior problems; such as running away in harness. This they attributed to the close breeding. Therefore, I believe the misinformation about the Three Generation "Rule" in Holland refers to the fact that the Dutch want to have completely unrelated horses in the first three generations of a pedigree. Misha asked if Dutch Fjords were outcrossed with Arabs? -- That is a rumor. Absolutely untrue. Dutch Fjords, just as Fjords bred in Norway, are 100% Fjords. Just the other day, I had an email from Tor Nestaas in Norway. Tor is one of Norway's top Fjord people, and has been for many years. He wanted to remind me that most of Holland's stallions are directly from Norway. He's absolutely right. Everyone should know that, and it's easy to see for anyone interested enough to look at pedigrees. All you have to do is go to the Dutch website where they list and show photos of all their stallions. Most of the older ones are imported from Norway. Now, after 45 years breeding Fjords in Holland, the Dutch are approving more and more of their own home-bred stallions into the Roster of Studbook Stallions. However, the sires of these stallions are bred and born in Norway. So, as I've told people for years, there's very little difference in Fjords bred in Norway, or in Holland, or in Belgium, or Germany, or France. There are, in fact, minor differences between Norwegian and Dutch Fjords, as opposed to German Fjords and French Fjords . . . but, there are almost no differences between Norway and Holland. At least, historically that's been true. --- Let's face it! There is competition between the various Fjord-breeding countries. They all have claims for their home-bred Fjords. Not much different than the claims between the East Coast and West Coast of North America. Or between this breeding farm and that one. To make this absolutely clear --- The Dutch have always gone to Norway each Spring for the Stallion Show, and have ususually purchased one or more Norwegian born and approved stallions to bring back to Holland to stand as Studbook Stallions and service Dutch mares that are, themselves, daughters of other stallions from Norway. So you see, there cannot be any great differences. Hopefully, this is clear. Mischa goes on to ask . . . . As a breeder of Norwegian Fjords, I >want to know. Secondly, if the Dutch high point stallion has a bad temper, >and if you breed enough and check enough you can find out that bad tempers >can be passed down, then how does that go with the idea that Fjords are >supposed to be even tempered horses. I guess I wasn't clear enough when I talked about the Dutch Studbook stallion, Hjerter-Knaeght, needing two handlers to come into a ring full of other stallions. I pointed this out as a "peculurarity" of the stallion while being handled "in hand." I also mentioned that the stallion was very well behaved while being driven. I said I had photos of both situations. My point was that the experienced Dutch horsemen knew enough about breeding and behavior not to dismiss a good stallion because of one aspect of behavior. I also said, I felt it likely that if this stallion were shown at an Evaluation or breed show in the States, his behavior would generate an awful lot of negative talk from "ringside experts", a lot of them loudly proclaiming how if that horse
Re: Questions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's wrong with "Registry" fjords?
Re: Questions
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 12:00 AM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Hello everyone! > >Well, now that I have purchased some Fjords, and am getting ready for the big >move to Michigan, I find myself with a list of questions, and not too sure as >to whom I should ask. I would appreciate any assistance any of you can offer. Well since most of your questions seem to be about getting them Registered, DNA typed & shown I will take a stab at them for you. >#1. Concerning DNA testing, I know I am to take hairs from the mane and send >them in with a kit. I neglected to ask how many hairs? Are they to be pulled >from the root? Where do I order this kit? Who do I send it to? The DNA testing is a requirement for registration with the NFHR. If you are going to register them with us a DNA kit needs to be ordered from me. You need to pull approx 50 or so hairs from either the mane or tail. Body hair doesn't work very well for some reason. The lab needs the root of the hair as that is what is tested, so do NOT cut the hair. The address to send it to is preprinted on the kit. The kits are $60.00 each. I do need to know the horses registered name ( or how it is going to be registered), reg # (if registered), its date of birth, sex, sire & dam & their reg #'s. I also need to know the owners name & address & the ship to name & address. >I am purchasing two Association Fjords, along with others with the Registry, >so wish to have these two DNA tested prior to the close of the sale. This is >not to insinuate I do not believe they are Fjords, but to make the transaction >as simple as possible. Well the DNA test will only help to prove parentage if the parents are DNA tested also. They may already be tested though. I can check for you if I know the names. >Oh, and PLEASE no one lecture me on not purchasing Registry Fjords. Not from me. The NFHR accepts the Association pedigrees. We only require the DNA typing on breeding animals before registration with us to be sure it has already been done if the horse is bred in the future. >#2. I have heard a great deal about evaluations, classes on showing, etc. >Who do I contact for these? Well they are usually announced on our web site www.nfhr.com and in the Fjord Herald. Usually if one is being held in your area a mailing to that area would be done as well. >Where are they held? So far we have had them in Libby MT, Blue Earth MN (twice), Stafford VT & Eugene OR. There currently is one intended for the year 2000 in Turlock CA. >Is there a limit as to how many horses I can bring? There hasn't been yet. > Is there an age limit? There are different classes for different ages. All ages are covered though. Performance classes do have a minimum age requirement. >Do these evaluations count (for lack of a better word) concerning future > breeding possibilites, as in a resume of sorts? Well that would depend on how much value your buyer puts on them. If they are an educated buyer I would think it would make them more valuable. It is certainly a tool that can & should be used by breeders. >#3. Is there some sort of North American evaluation list ranking stallions >and mares showing their wins at shows and also their pedigrees? If there is >such a list, would it separate the Fjords into categories, such as fine-boned, >sport, or draft? No there isn't yet. Maybe some day that will be done. I doubt that they would be categorized as you suggest though. That info isn't recorded on the evaluation score sheets. >#4. Last question. Are there rules somewhere concerning shows? What I mean >is, what the expectations of the judges are concerning handler and horse in >each category? This right now depends on the particular show you are attending. The NFHR is preparing a booklet with general horse show rules & it will also have the Breed Standard in it. >I hope I have not overwhelmed everyone with my "novice" questions, but I >figured if anyone would be able to answer, it would be all of you experienced >people. Hopefully I have answered them for you. If you have specific questions about registering your new horses with the NFHR please contact me directly. My email & phone numbers are below. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
dog
This message is from: "Dave McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Luckily, that dog died of some "unknown" illness the second winter we moved here. Maybe you weren't the only one having problems with it. Very mysterious.
