Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-27 Thread Bob Cowdery

On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 09:52 -0400, Robert McGwier wrote:
 Bob Cowdery wrote:
  On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 19:20 -0500, KE5EUP wrote:
 

  I'd like to have:
 
  1. A platform independent GUI.
  2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).
 
  
  I think one should consider in all this the push into distribution with
  Erlang which frees up each node to be in the appropriate language for
  the appropriate platform. One size fits all is no longer a limiting
  factor. The GUI layer 'should' be thin and easily redeveloped in
  multiple guises.
 
  73 de Bob

 Amen.
 

This was a somewhat throw-away remark at the time which I didn't
substantiate and no one challenged. I know people have been interested
in the past in easier ways of getting involved and in general that means
high level dynamic languages which are interactive and hide away that
edit/compile/run cycle. This is a back-to-the-future moment where I can
leverage what went before into the erlink-sr system. If you missed it or
thought the earlier post irrelevant there is an intro at
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g3ukb/ . 

I effectively have a UI API which I can package up quite easily into a
library that can be used from Squeak and Python. I do believe in using
the best language for the job and... 

- Erlang is wonderful for the infrastructure. 
- C is undoubtedly the best for DSP and arguable HW Control.
- C with GTK+ is good for a high performance GUI.
- Python is good for those quick automated processes and pieces of GUI
in GTK+ or wxWindows.
- Squeak Smalltalk is a great scripting environment and general
playground.

In effect Python and Squeak will be able to connect and play as erlang
nodes against an API that will be exposed in their own language. For
those who played with Squeak before there is 3.9 out which is a huge
improvement in look and feel, less like a toy shop and more like a
professional piece of work.

I plan to work over the next few weeks on some shortcomings in the
framework and on the Squeak plug-in adaptor (Python will come later).

73
de
Bob 

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-24 Thread Paul Shaffer
I offered this code as an example of a 2.0 port. I bailed out on it in March, 
since
it was very time consuming, and there was absolutely no resonance with 
the folks on the reflector. It started as a kind of jigsaw project, just 
sorting the pieces into object categories, would need to be refactored
a couple of times to perfect the design.

My job is writing windows system software and GUIs in c#. 
I presented the radio, and the 2.0 modifications
to the console, at a code camp. The settings dialog is mostly done, but 
the main console incomplete. It works however, and once you get into the
code you can see what the console needs for completion. I found that
data binding for some of the controls was too slow, so I created special
handling for the frequency display, etc. I really encourage you to follow
the data binding system in 2.0. 

http://www.cyberplasm.com/temp/xmldemo.zip

===
Well, the first place I would start is to open the Console project
file in C# Express and let it convert the project - then start fixing
the problems with .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 from there.  In SVN the DLLs
needed are already there (in binary form) so you should not need to be
concerned with them at this point.  The main task is getting the GUI
code (The Console) ported over to .NET 2.

If I had infinite time I would get something set up to start from, but
I don't, so someone else will have to volunteer to get it started.





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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-19 Thread Bob Cowdery
On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 19:20 -0500, KE5EUP wrote:

  I'd like to have:
 
  1. A platform independent GUI.
  2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).
 
I think one should consider in all this the push into distribution with
Erlang which frees up each node to be in the appropriate language for
the appropriate platform. One size fits all is no longer a limiting
factor. The GUI layer 'should' be thin and easily redeveloped in
multiple guises.

73 de Bob
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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-19 Thread Bob . Edwards

IF you wanted to maximise the SDR1000 group participation in programming
I'd say that the design architecture is paramount and would lead onto
choosing the programming language(s) to suit the structure best.

As a family man with limited time for hobbies I'd like to be able to
develop a small chunk of code - most conveniently (say) written as a DLL -
plonk it into one of several directories known to the new Flexradio
software - run the radio and notice that my new feature appeared on the
drop-down options already present on the radio.

That new feature could be written in any language most suited to the task.
e.g. Managing text in a smart data decoder versus say weak signal
detection.

You've got to ask - where would I like to be able to break into the signal
and control flow for future experimentation? How to achieve that so that
non-professional programmers will be able to write useful stuff and bolt it
all together without needing  a doctorate in computer science?

Whatever you choose, I'd say make sure the interfaces are there, and that
they are no more complicated than required -  to open up the development to
the 'digitally challenged' group ( me for instance!)

Regards, Bob Edwards, G4BBY


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Tim Ellison
Eric wrote on 10/10/06

We ARE NOT planning on using the same tools for the future versions of
the software.  Rather, we will use FREE TOOLS.  We have not settled 100%
on what those free tools will be, but right Visual Studio 2005 Express
versions are looking to be the best pick for the windows GUI.  Obviously
we'd like to have a cross platform GUI, but have yet to find a set of
libraries/tools that rival the ease-of-use and efficiency of Visual
Studio's tools. 


-Tim
---
Integrated Technical Services 

Too much of everything is just enough.
-Rob Barlow

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Flanders
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:12 AM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

Could someone from the software team give us an update on the search for
the new set of tools. Does it look promising? Any estimate of when might
we be able to switch over (if ever)?

Jerry W4UK

At 03:37 10/18/2006, Ken Klein wrote:
Rick;

I'm waiting for the version that uses the free tools, which should be 
coming soon.  I don't want to invest in current tools if they are going

to be obsolete in the near future.  But you're right; getting into the 
code is going to be interesting.

Ken WR5H



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stasiak
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:52 PM
To: FlexRadio reflector
Subject: [Flexradio] PowerSDR Open Source Fan

This is a personal anecdote written to thank Flex for deciding to make 
PowerSDR open source and to encourage other non-software types like me 
to experiment with the code.


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Mark Mumaw
I have the same question. I also have been thinking of tuning up my
programming skills. (It's been 8 years). I will happily purchase
whatever software tools are necessary but if those tools are going to
change in the near future then I'll wait. Are we talking months or
years?

Mark NU6X  Sedona,AZ

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Flanders
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:12 AM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

Could someone from the software team give us an update on the search 
for the new set of tools. Does it look promising? Any estimate of 
when might we be able to switch over (if ever)?

Jerry W4UK

At 03:37 10/18/2006, Ken Klein wrote:
Rick;

I'm waiting for the version that uses the free tools, which should be
coming
soon.  I don't want to invest in current tools if they are going to be
obsolete in the near future.  But you're right; getting into the code
is
going to be interesting.

Ken WR5H



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stasiak
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:52 PM
To: FlexRadio reflector
Subject: [Flexradio] PowerSDR Open Source Fan

This is a personal anecdote written to thank Flex for deciding to
make PowerSDR open source and to encourage other non-software types
like me to experiment with the code.


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jerry Flanders
Thanks, Tim

Yes, many of us noticed Eric's post several days ago.

That post is what prompted my question, because it has the effect of 
stopping any of us from purchasing and proceeding with the current tools.

Jerry W4UK



At 14:49 10/18/2006, Tim Ellison wrote:
Eric wrote on 10/10/06

We ARE NOT planning on using the same tools for the future versions of
the software.  Rather, we will use FREE TOOLS.  We have not settled 100%
on what those free tools will be, but right Visual Studio 2005 Express
versions are looking to be the best pick for the windows GUI.  Obviously
we'd like to have a cross platform GUI, but have yet to find a set of
libraries/tools that rival the ease-of-use and efficiency of Visual
Studio's tools.


-Tim
---
Integrated Technical Services

Too much of everything is just enough.
-Rob Barlow

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Flanders
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:12 AM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

Could someone from the software team give us an update on the search for
the new set of tools. Does it look promising? Any estimate of when might
we be able to switch over (if ever)?

Jerry W4UK

At 03:37 10/18/2006, Ken Klein wrote:
 Rick;
 
 I'm waiting for the version that uses the free tools, which should be
 coming soon.  I don't want to invest in current tools if they are going

 to be obsolete in the near future.  But you're right; getting into the
 code is going to be interesting.
 
 Ken WR5H
 
 


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jim Lux
At 08:36 AM 10/18/2006, Tim Ellison wrote:
The release of the new version shouldn't be the primary criteria for
purchasing the IDE for version 1.x

I believe, that there is not going to be point in the future (if ever)
where PowerSDR 1.x will not be usable with the SDR-1000 hardware.  Flex
has not announced an EOL (end of life) for PowerSDR 1.x.  If you want to
make changes to that GA software version, you will need to invest in VS
2003.NET.  So, you should base you buying decision on that premise.

Also, you can get them fairly cost effectively from e-bay.


Before making a substantial investment of time and/or money, one 
might want to inquire about the support for VS2003 as time goes 
on.  You might wind up with a development environment that only works 
on old unpatched versions of Windows.  Fine if that's an ok 
environment for what you want to do, e.g. a dedicated standalone 
radio computer.

We have a lot of dedicated systems with Win95 and even older OSes 
here at JPL because they were used to do some essential function 15 
years ago, and because the spacecraft that was being developed at the 
time is still working, we have to keep them going. Or, because they 
control some one-of-a-kind hardware and it's cheaper to keep the old 
computer running than redevelop for a new platform. It can be a bit 
of a museum curation sort of task (for instance, we had to keep 
resetting the date back to the 90s to avoid a Y2K leap year problem 
on one HP/UX machine).


James Lux, P.E.
Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group
Flight Communications Systems Section
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena CA 91109
tel: (818)354-2075
fax: (818)393-6875 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Philip Covington
On 10/18/06, James Courtier-Dutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Eric wrote on 10/10/06
 
  We ARE NOT planning on using the same tools for the future versions of
  the software.  Rather, we will use FREE TOOLS.  We have not settled 100%
  on what those free tools will be, but right Visual Studio 2005 Express
  versions are looking to be the best pick for the windows GUI.  Obviously
  we'd like to have a cross platform GUI, but have yet to find a set of
  libraries/tools that rival the ease-of-use and efficiency of Visual
  Studio's tools.
 
 

 Which tools were looked at?
 It would be nice if the PowerSDR gui could be built in eclipse.
 One could then look at running the PowerSDR gui on Linux.
 I believe the PowerSDR gui is written in C#.
 Linux can run C# programs in something called mono.
 dttsp already works in Linux. What else is needed to get PowerSDR gui
 working in both Windows and Linux?

 James

System.Windows.Forms in Mono is still pretty much crap.  It would be
better to use GTK# on both Windows and Linux in Mono.  If you don't
want to stay in C#, then of course there is wxWindows, Qt, etc...
etc... though there may be development still going on in wx.NET.

73 de Phil N8VB

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Philip Covington
On 10/18/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The release of the new version shouldn't be the primary criteria for
 purchasing the IDE for version 1.x

 I believe, that there is not going to be point in the future (if ever)
 where PowerSDR 1.x will not be usable with the SDR-1000 hardware.  Flex
 has not announced an EOL (end of life) for PowerSDR 1.x.  If you want to
 make changes to that GA software version, you will need to invest in VS
 2003.NET.  So, you should base you buying decision on that premise.

 Also, you can get them fairly cost effectively from e-bay.
 -Tim
 ---
 Integrated Technical Services

Another think to think about is that someone could take up converting
PowerSDR console to work with .NET 2.0.  Since C# Express is free,
someone could get started on this with no monetary investment in
development tools.

The other supporting library DLLs, like PortAudio, DttSP, FFTW, etc...
can already be compiled with free compilers supplied in the .NET SDK,
or someone could use the free Borland compilers (for Windows)...

73 de Phil N8VB

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jerry Flanders
At 17:26 10/18/2006, you wrote:

Another think to think about is that someone could take up converting
PowerSDR console to work with .NET 2.0.  Since C# Express is free,
someone could get started on this with no monetary investment in
development tools.

The other supporting library DLLs, like PortAudio, DttSP, FFTW, etc...
can already be compiled with free compilers supplied in the .NET SDK,
or someone could use the free Borland compilers (for Windows)...

73 de Phil N8VB


Many of us understand enough C to be able to hack a small change and 
push a recompile button, but the many steps required to actually set 
up the development tools into a software workbench (with libraries 
located properly, etc.) is a different - level task.

Can anyone can give some details about what libraries are required, 
what compilers/switches they require, where to obtain sources, etc - 
i.e., help with setting up the workbench?

Jerry W4UK 


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jim Lux
At 11:29 AM 10/18/2006, Philip Covington wrote:

Well, the first place I would start is to open the Console project
file in C# Express and let it convert the project - then start fixing
the problems with .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 from there.

You will get well over 400 warnings and errors when you load it.



   In SVN the DLLs
needed are already there (in binary form) so you should not need to be
concerned with them at this point.  The main task is getting the GUI
code (The Console) ported over to .NET 2.

If I had infinite time I would get something set up to start from, but
I don't, so someone else will have to volunteer to get it started.

Phil N8VB



Jim 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Philip Covington
On 10/18/06, Bob Cowdery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 13:20 -0400, Philip Covington wrote:
  On 10/18/06, James Courtier-Dutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Eric wrote on 10/10/06
   
We ARE NOT planning on using the same tools for the future versions of
the software.  Rather, we will use FREE TOOLS.  We have not settled 100%
on what those free tools will be, but right Visual Studio 2005 Express
versions are looking to be the best pick for the windows GUI.  Obviously
we'd like to have a cross platform GUI, but have yet to find a set of
libraries/tools that rival the ease-of-use and efficiency of Visual
Studio's tools.
   
   
  
   Which tools were looked at?
   It would be nice if the PowerSDR gui could be built in eclipse.
   One could then look at running the PowerSDR gui on Linux.
   I believe the PowerSDR gui is written in C#.
   Linux can run C# programs in something called mono.
   dttsp already works in Linux. What else is needed to get PowerSDR gui
   working in both Windows and Linux?
  
   James
 
  System.Windows.Forms in Mono is still pretty much crap.  It would be
  better to use GTK# on both Windows and Linux in Mono.  If you don't
  want to stay in C#, then of course there is wxWindows, Qt, etc...
  etc... though there may be development still going on in wx.NET.
 
 I've settled for using GTK+ on both Windows and Linux. Glade is a really
 nice GUI builder and the only one I've found where it's effortless to
 create resizable everythings and the only builder where I have been able
 to cut and paste whole chunks of interface between containers and
 windows without it throwing up it's hands in horror. It's also very
 cross platform. I compile it with Express on Windows without trouble.

 73 de Bob


I have had the same experience with GTK+.  And I agree that Glade is
very nice.  Sounds like the plan is the Console will stay in C#
though, using WinForms and .NET 2.

Still if the GUI is separated out, someone can write the GUI in
whatever language and with whatever toolkit they want.

Phil N8VB

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Eric Wachsmann
Not necessarily.  I would prefer to have a cross platform solution.  I have
not evaluated Eclipse yet, but it sounds like it could be an alternative.


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 radio.biz] On Behalf Of Philip Covington
 Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 3:44 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: FlexList
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source
 Fan)
 
...Sounds like the plan is the Console will stay in C#
 though, using WinForms and .NET 2.


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Bob Cowdery
On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 16:02 -0500, Eric Wachsmann wrote:
 Not necessarily.  I would prefer to have a cross platform solution.  I have
 not evaluated Eclipse yet, but it sounds like it could be an alternative.
 
A cross-platform solution does not necessarily need a cross-platform IDE
although of course that would be nice if there was such a thing. Eclipse
is very good for Java which was its original target being Java itself.
It's a little lack-luster on everything else. I've settled for just
doing different builds on each platform with the best IDE for the
platform. VS is very good at staying completely out the way by letting
you put all the files exactly where you want so not polluting the source
tree, others are not so good at that or I haven't found how yet.

Bob
 
 Eric Wachsmann
 FlexRadio Systems
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  radio.biz] On Behalf Of Philip Covington
  Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 3:44 PM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: FlexList
  Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source
  Fan)
  
 ...Sounds like the plan is the Console will stay in C#
  though, using WinForms and .NET 2.
 

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Philip Covington
On 10/18/06, Eric Wachsmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not necessarily.  I would prefer to have a cross platform solution.  I have
 not evaluated Eclipse yet, but it sounds like it could be an alternative.


 Eric Wachsmann
 FlexRadio Systems


I thought Eclipse was a development environment.  Are you talking
about the possibility of writing the Console in Java?

What language or GUI toolkit are you leaning towards or have you not
gotten to that point yet?

Phil N8VB

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Eric Wachsmann
I'd like to have:

1. A platform independent GUI.
2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).

I am not stuck on any tool or language at this point as I don't have enough
information to say, This is the best tool or This is the best language.
These two obviously go hand in hand.

What I can say is that from a GUI support/development standpoint, I have yet
to see anything that can compare to Visual Studio .NET 2003 (and this goes
for 2005 as well) in terms of GUI support/development productivity.  The
catch is that what makes this easy has been built in .NET which is, for all
practical purposes, Windows only.


Eric Wachsmann
FlexRadio Systems

 -Original Message-
 From: Philip Covington [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:12 PM
 To: Eric Wachsmann
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; FlexList
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source
 Fan)
 
 On 10/18/06, Eric Wachsmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Not necessarily.  I would prefer to have a cross platform solution.  I
 have
  not evaluated Eclipse yet, but it sounds like it could be an
 alternative.
 
 
  Eric Wachsmann
  FlexRadio Systems
 
 
 I thought Eclipse was a development environment.  Are you talking
 about the possibility of writing the Console in Java?
 
 What language or GUI toolkit are you leaning towards or have you not
 gotten to that point yet?
 
 Phil N8VB


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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Philip Covington
On 10/18/06, Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At 11:29 AM 10/18/2006, Philip Covington wrote:

 Well, the first place I would start is to open the Console project
 file in C# Express and let it convert the project - then start fixing
 the problems with .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 from there.

 You will get well over 400 warnings and errors when you load it.
snip
 Jim

Yep, that sounds about right...I think I got over 200 the last time I
tried it 6+ months ago.  It will definitely will keep the poor soul
that undertakes the task busy for a while. LOL..

Phil N8VB

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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jim Lux
At 01:36 PM 10/18/2006, Philip Covington wrote:
On 10/18/06, Jim Lux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 11:29 AM 10/18/2006, Philip Covington wrote:

 Well, the first place I would start is to open the Console project
 file in C# Express and let it convert the project - then start fixing
 the problems with .NET 1.1 to .NET 2.0 from there.

You will get well over 400 warnings and errors when you load it.
snip
Jim

Yep, that sounds about right...I think I got over 200 the last time I
tried it 6+ months ago.  It will definitely will keep the poor soul
that undertakes the task busy for a while. LOL..


I think that most are just because there's one or two key modules (I 
think it's mostly the thread safe control wrappers) that need to be 
redefined so that they appear in the correct namespaces (or that the 
console modules reference the right namespace).  That would probably 
get rid of 90% of the warnings.

I was going to poke at it next weekend.


Phil N8VB

James Lux, P.E.
Spacecraft Radio Frequency Subsystems Group
Flight Communications Systems Section
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Mail Stop 161-213
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Pasadena CA 91109
tel: (818)354-2075
fax: (818)393-6875 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jim Lux
At 02:43 PM 10/18/2006, Eric Wachsmann wrote:
I'd like to have:

1. A platform independent GUI.
2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).

I am not stuck on any tool or language at this point as I don't have enough
information to say, This is the best tool or This is the best language.
These two obviously go hand in hand.

What I can say is that from a GUI support/development standpoint, I have yet
to see anything that can compare to Visual Studio .NET 2003 (and this goes
for 2005 as well) in terms of GUI support/development productivity.  The
catch is that what makes this easy has been built in .NET which is, for all
practical purposes, Windows only.

which is why you (generically, not Eric specifically) really want a 
fork here.  Let the Linux UI evolve in a Linux compatible way, using 
methods and tools that are congenial for Linux, and the Windows UI 
evolve using the capabilities that Windows has.  The two OSes are 
sufficiently different that cross platform compromise solutions will 
be just that, compromise.  There ARE some cross platform approaches 
which seem to be fairly powerful (e.g. Java) BUT, they have some 
non-zero learning curve to get going.

You also need to consider whether you're genuinely interested in 
increasing the number of coding participants significantly (whether 
for contributions to the mainline code or for private experiments). 
That tends to push towards environments and tools that have wider 
existing market penetration (Windows,.NET, VS in the WinXX world, 
whatever the equivalents are in the Linux world..I only do GUI in 
Windows.. my Linux coding is all command line/script file style)


Jim, W6RMK 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Ken Klein
Jim;

Please excuse a really dumb question:  Why NOT use Java???  Seems to me for
an Open Source project such as this, that would be the first choice.

Ken WR5H



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 5:00 PM
To: Eric Wachsmann; 'Philip Covington'
Cc: 'FlexList'
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

At 02:43 PM 10/18/2006, Eric Wachsmann wrote:
I'd like to have:

1. A platform independent GUI.
2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).

I am not stuck on any tool or language at this point as I don't have enough
information to say, This is the best tool or This is the best language.
These two obviously go hand in hand.

What I can say is that from a GUI support/development standpoint, I have
yet
to see anything that can compare to Visual Studio .NET 2003 (and this goes
for 2005 as well) in terms of GUI support/development productivity.  The
catch is that what makes this easy has been built in .NET which is, for all
practical purposes, Windows only.

which is why you (generically, not Eric specifically) really want a 
fork here.  Let the Linux UI evolve in a Linux compatible way, using 
methods and tools that are congenial for Linux, and the Windows UI 
evolve using the capabilities that Windows has.  The two OSes are 
sufficiently different that cross platform compromise solutions will 
be just that, compromise.  There ARE some cross platform approaches 
which seem to be fairly powerful (e.g. Java) BUT, they have some 
non-zero learning curve to get going.

You also need to consider whether you're genuinely interested in 
increasing the number of coding participants significantly (whether 
for contributions to the mainline code or for private experiments). 
That tends to push towards environments and tools that have wider 
existing market penetration (Windows,.NET, VS in the WinXX world, 
whatever the equivalents are in the Linux world..I only do GUI in 
Windows.. my Linux coding is all command line/script file style)


Jim, W6RMK 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread Jim Lux
At 04:10 PM 10/18/2006, Ken Klein wrote:
Jim;

Please excuse a really dumb question:  Why NOT use Java???  Seems to me for
an Open Source project such as this, that would be the first choice.

Not a dumb question at all.

It would revolve around whether you want to have maximum portability 
or maximum participation.  There are probably 100 (maybe 1000) times 
as many C programmers as Java programmers out there.  Java gives you 
portability, but a smaller developer pool to draw from.

One could argue that the developer pool for portable c is also 
quite small, since the implication is that you not only need to know 
C, but also the particular environment and libraries you're working 
with (e.g. .NET framework, X11, whathaveyou).

So, for maximum participation, pick the programming environment with 
the largest pool of participants, and that's MS Windows, VC, 
.NET  (although VB is probably actually more popular and easier, but 
I'd hate to try and translate PowerSDR back into VB).

OTOH, if something like PowerSDR were to be rewritten in Java (by 
humans, not a machine translation, which would result in 
incomprehensible code (viz f2c)), it would provide an excellent 
learning environment for learning Java (it's always nice to start 
with something you KNOW works and make little changes).  However, no 
skilled Java programmer has volunteered to do the port so far.

And neither goal really is correlated to Open Source, which is just a 
matter of having the source code available, with no implication (as 
has been made abundantly clear to me by several Open Source 
afficionados) that the source is documented, understandable, readily 
modifiable, or even in any standard language or character set.  Open 
Source is a necessary but not sufficient condition for public participation.

And that is still different from Free (as in speech, not as in beer) software.

Jim 



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Re: [Flexradio] Q for software team (Was: PowerSDR Open Source Fan)

2006-10-18 Thread KE5EUP
I have an uninformed question. What about Python?
Forgive the ignorance, I have a series of books and learning it is on my 
short list this winter. The web site states and I quote below:
 Python runs on Windows, Linux/Unix, Mac OS X, OS/2, Amiga, Palm 
Handhelds, and Nokia mobile phones. Python has also been ported to the 
Java and .NET virtual machines.
Al

Jim Lux wrote:
 At 02:43 PM 10/18/2006, Eric Wachsmann wrote:
   
 I'd like to have:

 1. A platform independent GUI.
 2. An IDE that makes GUI development nice (i.e. NOT VC6 style).

 I am not stuck on any tool or language at this point as I don't have enough
 information to say, This is the best tool or This is the best language.
 These two obviously go hand in hand.

 What I can say is that from a GUI support/development standpoint, I have yet
 to see anything that can compare to Visual Studio .NET 2003 (and this goes
 for 2005 as well) in terms of GUI support/development productivity.  The
 catch is that what makes this easy has been built in .NET which is, for all
 practical purposes, Windows only.
 

 which is why you (generically, not Eric specifically) really want a 
 fork here.  Let the Linux UI evolve in a Linux compatible way, using 
 methods and tools that are congenial for Linux, and the Windows UI 
 evolve using the capabilities that Windows has.  The two OSes are 
 sufficiently different that cross platform compromise solutions will 
 be just that, compromise.  There ARE some cross platform approaches 
 which seem to be fairly powerful (e.g. Java) BUT, they have some 
 non-zero learning curve to get going.

 You also need to consider whether you're genuinely interested in 
 increasing the number of coding participants significantly (whether 
 for contributions to the mainline code or for private experiments). 
 That tends to push towards environments and tools that have wider 
 existing market penetration (Windows,.NET, VS in the WinXX world, 
 whatever the equivalents are in the Linux world..I only do GUI in 
 Windows.. my Linux coding is all command line/script file style)


 Jim, W6RMK 



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