Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 17:42:09 +1000 Bryan Kilgallin wrote: > it would be incredibly instructional to see it all in one defining > document great, but this list is not the place, take it elsewhere d ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
Hi Andrew: I too have experienced "acquired disability" (traumatic head injury in a street attack) so I feel I can empathise with some of the alienation you feel as a result of being affected by discriminatory events - both real and imagined. My autism causes strife. I also would like to hear more of your voice and experience, and would appreciate you taking up Bryan Kilgallin's offer to canvas your real-world insights gained from your technological solutions. Misunderstanding is common. We can try to overcome it. I know you have mentioned such details on these threads in the past, but it would be incredibly instructional to see it all in one defining document We could learn from each other. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
Dear Karen, there have been many instances in the past where able-bodied and differently-enabled experts have worked together in the FreeDOS threads for a common good. I am distressed to have witnessed the escalating discord between two of such proponents. I too have experienced "acquired disability" (traumatic head injury in a street attack) so I feel I can empathise with some of the alienation you feel as a result of being affected by discriminatory events - both real and imagined. However I feel that all the actors in this recent debate are definitely in the same boat to push to a more equitable outcome for all - just that the oars have become a little tangled. I also would like to hear more of your voice and experience, and would appreciate you taking up Bryan Kilgallin's offer to canvas your real-world insights gained from your technological solutions. I know you have mentioned such details on these threads in the past, but it would be incredibly instructional to see it all in one defining document, Best Wishes :) -- Web: http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=EMQxfgYJ On Sat, Jun 26, 2021, at 10:58 AM, Bryan Kilgallin wrote: > Dear Karen: > > > Liam could have made his point about reactions to Linux issues, without > > using my name, or making statements about my motivations. > > Distraction can relieve stress. > > > That he chose to do so, in spite of my statements to the contrary, and > > that he dismissed details after the fact speaks of slander, perhaps > > even intention inflection of emotional distress. > > A personal attack makes more heat than light. > > > I have no idea what my doing a karen means, but facilitating an > > environment for bullying, is not kind either. > > Techs tend to be insensitive. > > > learn to ask before making suggestions, and I feel the list will gain > > a great deal. > > I welcome your insights. > -- > members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Dear Karen: we shall see what I can and cannot do legally. Roping in the world, is a fool's errand. Just raise awareness of human factors in design. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
Dear Karen: Liam could have made his point about reactions to Linux issues, without using my name, or making statements about my motivations. Distraction can relieve stress. That he chose to do so, in spite of my statements to the contrary, and that he dismissed details after the fact speaks of slander, perhaps even intention inflection of emotional distress. A personal attack makes more heat than light. I have no idea what my doing a karen means, but facilitating an environment for bullying, is not kind either. Techs tend to be insensitive. learn to ask before making suggestions, and I feel the list will gain a great deal. I welcome your insights. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Liam: I am not interested into entering into debates about your medical claims. Tech includes human factors. I do not live in your country and never have, so I doubt you could sue me if I had said anything actionable, which I have not. This is a mailing list. It cannot be edited. What is sent is sent and it cannot be changed. Consider reducing harm. That's *before* posting a response. If you have problems with particular sound frequencies, or speech frequencies, then get professional assistance. She's done so. Do not come on to a public mailing list and without mentioning any of them and demand that other people who are untrained volunteers and know nothing about you, your health, your disabilities or anything else, answer questions for you and then threaten them with legal action when you don't like what you hear. Adults can learn. I am filtering your email address to the trash from now on, something I have not needed to do for at least 5 years. Learn tactful response. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Thanks, Karen, for the detailed explanation: Most folk aren't disabled. Then they can't understand it. Please write a guide for software folk. As disability is weakly known. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Karen Lewellen wrote: > Eric, > Liam could have made his point about reactions to Linux issues, > without using my name, or making statements about my motivations. is there some reason why this can't be taken off-list? d ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
I am copying/pasting my comment from the original thread, so it is also seen here: I need to remind everyone of the list rules, linked on https://www.freedos.org/forums/ and that point to http://freedos.sourceforge.net/freedos/lists/remind.txt >We have only a few rules for posting to the FreeDOS mailing lists: > >1. NO HATE SPEECH OR BULLYING >[..] > >2. NO PROMOTIONS OR SPAM >[..] > >3. BE KIND AND COURTEOUS >[..] (you also get a copy of this every month as an automatic email list reminder) Liam's comment was inappropriate (rule #3) but threatening legal action because of that comment is bullying (rule #1). The posts that followed this are clearly way off-topic and unproductive. This thread is dead, and needs to stop. I'll remind everyone that this is a public email list. It's archived by third parties, including mail-archive. http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user http://www.mail-archive.com/freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net/ As a matter of practicality, it's impossible for me or anyone to "edit" an email sent to a public email list. Jim On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 11:18 AM Karen Lewellen wrote: > > Eric, > Liam could have made his point about reactions to Linux issues, without > using my name, or making statements about my motivations. > That he chose to do so, in spite of my statements to the contrary, and > that he dismissed details after the fact speaks of slander, perhaps even > intention inflection of emotional distress. > I have no idea what my doing a karen means, but facilitating an > environment for bullying, is not kind either. > Thank you for your apology where your own part in this is concerned. > learn to ask before making suggestions, and I feel the list will gain a > great deal. > Karen > > > > > On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote: > > > > > Karen, Jim, > > > > threatening legal actions against people who misunderstand > > your suffering is not appropriate. At all. It makes me sad > > that getting computers to cooperate with you is so hard, > > and I am sorry for making bad or stupid suggestions in > > that context, but none of us is engaging in "slander". > > > > Eric > > > >> Jim, > >> This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate > >> what may be done legally. > >> The internet is increasingly a public place. > >> I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation > >> tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him > >> an expert on the lives of millions. > >> Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. > >> My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right > >> now, with the issues I have is none of his business. > >> Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of > >> personal medical concerns on a public list. > >> Something no human being should have to endure. > >> What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains > >> challenging for many. > >> The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to > >> everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. > >> I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists > >> who believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as > >> Liam dictionary dictates. > >> best, > >> > >> Karen lewellen > > > > > > ___ > > Freedos-user mailing list > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
I need to remind everyone of the list rules, linked on https://www.freedos.org/forums/ and that point to http://freedos.sourceforge.net/freedos/lists/remind.txt >We have only a few rules for posting to the FreeDOS mailing lists: > >1. NO HATE SPEECH OR BULLYING >[..] > >2. NO PROMOTIONS OR SPAM >[..] > >3. BE KIND AND COURTEOUS >[..] (you also get a copy of this every month as an automatic email list reminder) Liam's comment was inappropriate (rule #3) but threatening legal action because of that comment is bullying (rule #1). The posts that followed this are clearly way off-topic and unproductive. This thread is dead, and needs to stop. I'll remind everyone that this is a public email list. It's archived by third parties, including mail-archive. http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user http://www.mail-archive.com/freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net/ As a matter of practicality, it's impossible for me or anyone to "edit" an email sent to a public email list. Jim On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 9:53 AM Karen Lewellen wrote: > > On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Liam Proven wrote:> Unfortunately a lot of people are > very technologically conservative. > > Once they find something they like, they will stay with it at all > > costs. Like Karen here: she likes DOS, she likes her hardware screen > > reader, and she wants the world to come to her and interoperate with > > her obsolete tech. Anything else is interpreted as abuse. > > > Indeed? > > Lima, > In 1992 i experienced a vascular stroke like accident During an eye > surgery due to an over exposure and allergic reaction anesthetic > damaging > parts of my brain which manage verbal processing. > The science to even manage the situation, collectively known as neural > plasticity > did not even exist for decades. > I have scans of my brain literary tracking it seeking functional nerves, > and when exposed to verbal information within certain frequency ranges > the results are quite catastrophic. > There is a > book called the brain's way of healing. > Some of the doctors referenced working here in Toronto, and using the part > of my brain that manages sound like music, actually developed a program > specifically to work with my problem, supported by major medical research > institutions like New York University, who captured my brain at first, and > Jon's Hopkins. > We made some progress, but I must use a computer every day, my brain's > function fluctuates, with even some ranges of cordless phone, mobile > devices, and yes sir, synthesized speech still a profound physical risk. > leading to the epileptic like reactions I spoke of, for my body alone, as I > accommodate my *individual* disability experiences. > > sShe would be much better off if she were willing to experiment and > try > > other things, but she will not accept that. > > > > Liam, > in 2017 I made an appointment with an apple genius in Toronto to sit down > and test the frequency ranges of various apple voices in the IOS > environment. > I passed out in the store..twice. > Last year, we tried again, fortunately I only started throwing up, and > in march 2021, it was Google's talkback system, causing my speech to slur > and for me to be dizzy for several days, still playing for that > experiment, since I cannot see my team during the pandemic. > Oh and that ZTE phone claims to use Linux as its operating system too. > How do you know what I am willing to experiment with? when did we meet? > What copies of my scans, tests, results have you personally reviewed? > This is a public list liam, and you are engaging in slander. > How dare you claim to know what I have fought to do for my body, how much > I have sought to expand my choices. > There is no place to test with the Linux environment, something I have > investigated regularly for almost 20 years. > Jim, > This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate > what may be done legally. > The internet is increasingly a public place. > I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation > tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him an > expert on the lives of millions. > Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. > My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right now, > with the issues I have is none of his business. > Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of personal > medical concerns on a public list. > Something no human being should have to endure. > What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains > challenging for many. > The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to > everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. > I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists > who > believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as Liam > dictionary dictates. > best,
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
Eric, Liam could have made his point about reactions to Linux issues, without using my name, or making statements about my motivations. That he chose to do so, in spite of my statements to the contrary, and that he dismissed details after the fact speaks of slander, perhaps even intention inflection of emotional distress. I have no idea what my doing a karen means, but facilitating an environment for bullying, is not kind either. Thank you for your apology where your own part in this is concerned. learn to ask before making suggestions, and I feel the list will gain a great deal. Karen On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote: Karen, Jim, threatening legal actions against people who misunderstand your suffering is not appropriate. At all. It makes me sad that getting computers to cooperate with you is so hard, and I am sorry for making bad or stupid suggestions in that context, but none of us is engaging in "slander". Eric Jim, This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate what may be done legally. The internet is increasingly a public place. I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him an expert on the lives of millions. Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right now, with the issues I have is none of his business. Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of personal medical concerns on a public list. Something no human being should have to endure. What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains challenging for many. The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists who believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as Liam dictionary dictates. best, Karen lewellen ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
'Culture' at large really is knocking on the door of pravda+izvestia. That's my 'suffering' through this thread... On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 11:39 AM Eric Auer wrote: > > Karen, Jim, > > threatening legal actions against people who misunderstand > your suffering is not appropriate. At all. It makes me sad > that getting computers to cooperate with you is so hard, > and I am sorry for making bad or stupid suggestions in > that context, but none of us is engaging in "slander". > > Eric > > > Jim, > > This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate > > what may be done legally. > > The internet is increasingly a public place. > > I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation > > tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him > > an expert on the lives of millions. > > Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. > > My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right > > now, with the issues I have is none of his business. > > Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of > > personal medical concerns on a public list. > > Something no human being should have to endure. > > What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains > > challenging for many. > > The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to > > everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. > > I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists > > who believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as > > Liam dictionary dictates. > > best, > > > > Karen lewellen > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos? - Karen versus Liam
Karen, Jim, threatening legal actions against people who misunderstand your suffering is not appropriate. At all. It makes me sad that getting computers to cooperate with you is so hard, and I am sorry for making bad or stupid suggestions in that context, but none of us is engaging in "slander". Eric > Jim, > This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate > what may be done legally. > The internet is increasingly a public place. > I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation > tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him > an expert on the lives of millions. > Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. > My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right > now, with the issues I have is none of his business. > Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of > personal medical concerns on a public list. > Something no human being should have to endure. > What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains > challenging for many. > The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to > everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. > I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists > who believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as > Liam dictionary dictates. > best, > > Karen lewellen ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Karen Lewellen wrote: we shall see what I can and cannot do legally. Karen's gonna Karen I guess. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
we shall see what I can and cannot do legally. On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Liam Proven wrote: I am not interested into entering into debates about your medical claims. I do not live in your country and never have, so I doubt you could sue me if I had said anything actionable, which I have not. This is a mailing list. It cannot be edited. What is sent is sent and it cannot be changed. If you have problems with particular sound frequencies, or speech frequencies, then get professional assistance. Do not come on to a public mailing list and without mentioning any of them and demand that other people who are untrained volunteers and know nothing about you, your health, your disabilities or anything else, answer questions for you and then threaten them with legal action when you don't like what you hear. Good bye. I am filtering your email address to the trash from now on, something I have not needed to do for at least 5 years. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
I am not interested into entering into debates about your medical claims. I do not live in your country and never have, so I doubt you could sue me if I had said anything actionable, which I have not. This is a mailing list. It cannot be edited. What is sent is sent and it cannot be changed. If you have problems with particular sound frequencies, or speech frequencies, then get professional assistance. Do not come on to a public mailing list and without mentioning any of them and demand that other people who are untrained volunteers and know nothing about you, your health, your disabilities or anything else, answer questions for you and then threaten them with legal action when you don't like what you hear. Good bye. I am filtering your email address to the trash from now on, something I have not needed to do for at least 5 years. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Liam Proven wrote:> Unfortunately a lot of people are very technologically conservative. Once they find something they like, they will stay with it at all costs. Like Karen here: she likes DOS, she likes her hardware screen reader, and she wants the world to come to her and interoperate with her obsolete tech. Anything else is interpreted as abuse. Indeed? Lima, In 1992 i experienced a vascular stroke like accident During an eye surgery due to an over exposure and allergic reaction anesthetic damaging parts of my brain which manage verbal processing. The science to even manage the situation, collectively known as neural plasticity did not even exist for decades. I have scans of my brain literary tracking it seeking functional nerves, and when exposed to verbal information within certain frequency ranges the results are quite catastrophic. There is a book called the brain's way of healing. Some of the doctors referenced working here in Toronto, and using the part of my brain that manages sound like music, actually developed a program specifically to work with my problem, supported by major medical research institutions like New York University, who captured my brain at first, and Jon's Hopkins. We made some progress, but I must use a computer every day, my brain's function fluctuates, with even some ranges of cordless phone, mobile devices, and yes sir, synthesized speech still a profound physical risk. leading to the epileptic like reactions I spoke of, for my body alone, as I accommodate my *individual* disability experiences. sShe would be much better off if she were willing to experiment and try other things, but she will not accept that. Liam, in 2017 I made an appointment with an apple genius in Toronto to sit down and test the frequency ranges of various apple voices in the IOS environment. I passed out in the store..twice. Last year, we tried again, fortunately I only started throwing up, and in march 2021, it was Google's talkback system, causing my speech to slur and for me to be dizzy for several days, still playing for that experiment, since I cannot see my team during the pandemic. Oh and that ZTE phone claims to use Linux as its operating system too. How do you know what I am willing to experiment with? when did we meet? What copies of my scans, tests, results have you personally reviewed? This is a public list liam, and you are engaging in slander. How dare you claim to know what I have fought to do for my body, how much I have sought to expand my choices. There is no place to test with the Linux environment, something I have investigated regularly for almost 20 years. Jim, This post will be edited to remove Liam's slander or I will investigate what may be done legally. The internet is increasingly a public place. I am a media and music professional, and I will not have my reputation tarnished by someone who thinks his personal use of machines makes him an expert on the lives of millions. Liam may claim he did not know, but felt he could slander me anyway. My body and my brain, and my choices to use computers as I can right now, with the issues I have is none of his business. Via his slander though he has made it necessary for me to talk of personal medical concerns on a public list. Something no human being should have to endure. What Liam illustrates perfectly is just why so much of Linux remains challenging for many. The attitude of those like him who believe their experience projects to everyone else, and that everyone sharing a label are interchangeable. I am profoundly thankful to the apple techs doctors, and scientists who believe I deserve technology that works for me, as I am, not as Liam dictionary dictates. best, Karen lewellen > This attitude is what has kept Microsoft immensely profitable. > A similar one is what has kept Linux as the most successful server OS in the world. It is just a modernised version of a quick and dirty hack of an OS from the 1960s, but it's capable and it's free. "Good enough" is the enemy of better. There are hundreds of other operating systems out there. I listed 25 non-Linux FOSS OSes in this piece, and yes, FreeDOS was included: https://www.theregister.com/Print/2013/11/01/25_alternative_pc_operating_systems/ There are dozens that are better in various ways than Unix and Linux. ??? Minix 3 is a better FOSS Unix than Linux: a true microkernel which can cope with parts of itself failing without crashing the computer. ??? Plan 9 is a better UNIX than Unix. Everything really *is* a file and the network is the computer. ??? Inferno is a better Plan 9 than Plan 9: the network is your computer, with full processor and OS-independence. ??? Plan 9's UI is based on Oberon: an entire mouse-driven OS in 10,000 lines of rigorous, type-safe code, *including* the compiler and IDE. ??? A2 is the modern descendant of Oberon: real-time capable, a full GUI, mul
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Dear Karen: Very much so, part of why asking, rather than assuming anything about another human being is wise. I'd like you to write up your insights. Launch a thread on software access for the disabled. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Very much so, part of why asking, rather than assuming anything about another human being is wise. On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Bryan Kilgallin wrote: Hi Karen: Thanks for the info. The disabled are varied. And one's life experience is subjective. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Carsten, I also use a Python script to access online media such as youtube, called youtube-dl. It often needs to be updated to work with the newest changes on youtube, but it also works with a number of other websites including various media libraries of TV and radio stations. So I like the general idea of using such scripts to extract the live stream URL for radio stations and then listening to those with MPXPLAY or MPLAYER which are both available for DOS. Having to deal with tunein.com, which also seems to require a login, could make things more complex than they tend to be on the websites of the radio stations themselves, which often have listen now live links to their streams for users who are not in range of their FM or other broadcasts or who simply prefer to listen via internet. At the moment, the following 3 cases are in my bookmarks: - one station has an icecast server which offers a simple HTTP URL for an infinitely large MP3 "file" - one station offers a M3U playlist via HTTP which simply is a file containing the HTTP URL of an MP3 stream again - another station uses Akamai as content delivery network which offers M3U8 Unicode-playlist files which then point to the audio delivered in small segment files The latter would probably be a problem for DOS, but having a plain HTTP URL of a simple MP3 stream, optionally accessed through a playlist text file, would be quite feasible to use as long as you have a network-enabled MP3 player. If you did not have one, you would have to download the MP3 as long as the show is on, then truncate the download and listen to it after the show has ended, which is not very convenient at all. As Karen mentioned accessing an Ubuntu computer via SSH, the youtube-dl script could be run on that computer to get the URL of the actual radio stream, or preferrably the URL of the (dynamical) playlist file. The URL could then be used together with a DOS media player to listen to the radio station. The URL might change frequently. I remember that the Python script is surprisingly large and complex, so I do not expect that to work on Python for DOS. It actually is a ZIP container with 800 files which would unpack to more than 5 MB and which import: base64 binascii calendar codecs collections contextlib copy ctypes datetime email email.header email.utils errno fileinput functools getpass gzip hashlib hmac io itertools json locale math netrc operator optparse os os.path platform random shlex shutil socket ssl string struct subprocess sys tempfile time tokenize traceback uuid xml.etree.ElementTree xml.etree.ElementTree zlib. About Dectalk USB: People have tried to use it in Linux with speakup ( http://linux-speakup.org/ originally a screen reader) which is supposed to support, apart from the speakup software, Accent PC/SA, Apollo, Audapter, Braile 'n Speak and similar Blazie products, DecTalk Express/External/Internal PC, DoubleTalk PC, Keynote Internal PC, LiteTalk or DoubleTalk LT, Speakout and Transport. After booting, DecTalk PC (ISA card) and a number of software synthesizers additionally become accessible. For example Fonix seems to sell a software which has the same voice as DecTalk? The problem is that only the serial port versions of DecTalk are supported directly, not the USB version: http://www.axsol.com/at_decusb.php Note that the device actually has both ports, USB and RS232. So people have tried to use it from Linux by connecting USB to serial adapters to their PC. That can be accessed like a Dectalk Express, but they got some delays caused by the extra abstraction layer. Note that the USB port of the Dectalk USB can still be connected to provide power for the device, which avoids having to use the separate wall power adapter. https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-speakup/msg32819.html https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-hardware-18/4-second-delay-in-a-dectalk-usb-after-typing-4175685905/ This could also be interesting for DOS users in case they have computers which no longer provide serial ports. If suitable USB serial port drivers can talk to the DOS software which would use Dectalk, then they could still use it. That would be a question for Bret Johnson (free drivers) and Georg Potthast (shareware drivers). Note that according to a newer discussion here https://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/2010-April/msg00328.html the price of the USB version was rather high, so it would be a bit of a waste to use it in Dectalk Express emulation mode with USB serial converters. Carsten, thanks for the text version of Firefox link to brow.sh - interestingly, the author has an article about getting rid of facebook/google: https://tombh.co.uk/deleting-facebook-and-google Liam, I would have expected Linux to also work for blind users with the GUI, with limitations regarding which apps are supported well enough? As you say, using shell apps is not everybodies taste, although the shell can be quite powerful. I completely agree that hav
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Liam: Unfortunately a lot of people are very technologically conservative. Once they find something they like, they will stay with it at all costs. Like Karen here: she likes DOS, she likes her hardware screen reader, and she wants the world to come to her and interoperate with her obsolete tech. Anything else is interpreted as abuse. Keeping up to date is very time-consuming. A lot of people don't want that! -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 at 03:56, Eric Auer wrote: > > PS Liam: I am surprised that you have so much experience > with screen readers, so maybe you could share some ideas > about which of the free Linux TTS engines have which > strengths and weaknesses based on what both you and > the users you know think about them in recent years? > And assuming that Knoppix is quite "German", which Linux > distros are your users using with which text output path? The answer is simple but fairly depressing: basically everyone I know personally or via friends of friends who is a computer user, uses Windows or Mac. There is a significant move from Windows to Mac. Younger computer users -- by which I mean people who started using computers since the 1990s and widespread internet usage, i.e. most of them -- tend to expect graphical user interfaces, menus and so on, and not to be happy with command-line-driven programs. This applies every bit as much to blind users. Linux can work very well for blind users *if* they use the terminal. The Linux shell is the richest and most powerful command-line environment there is or ever has been, and one can accomplish almost anything one wants to do using it. But it's still a command line, and a notably unfriendly and unhelpful one at that. In my experience, for a lot of GUI users, that is just too much. For instance, a decade or so back, the Register ran some articles I wrote on switching to Linux. They were, completely intentionally, what is sometimes today called "opinionated" -- that is, I did not try to present balance or a spread of options. Instead I presented what was, IMHO, the best choices. https://www.theregister.com/Print/2010/06/21/reg_linux_guide_1/ https://www.theregister.com/Print/2010/06/23/reg_linux_guide_2/ https://www.theregister.com/Print/2010/06/24/reg_linux_guide_3/ Multiple readers complained that I included a handful of commands to type in. "This is why Linux is not usable! This is why it is not ready for the real world! Ordinary people can't do this weird arcane stuff!" And so on. Probably some of these remarks are still there in the comments pages. In vain did some others try to reason with them. But it was 10x quicker to copy-and-paste these commands! -> No, it's too hard. He could give GUI steps but it would take pages. -> Then that's what he should have done, because we don't do this weird terminal nonsense. But then the article would have been 10x longer and you wouldn't read it. -> Well then the OS is not ready, it's not suitable for normal people. If you just copy-and-paste, it's like 3 mouse clicks and you can't make a typing error. -> But it's still weird and scary and I DON'T LIKE IT. You can't win. This is why Linux Mint succeeded -- partly because when Ubuntu introduced its non-Windows-like desktop after Microsoft threatened to sue, Mint hoovered up those users who wanted it Windows-like. But also because Mint didn't make you install the optional extras. It bundled them, and so what if that makes it illegal to distribute in some countries? It Just Worked out of the box, and it looked familiar, and that won them millions of fans. Mac OS X has done extremely well partly because users never _ever_ need to go need a command line, for anything, ever. You can if you want, but you never, ever need to. If that means you can't move your swap file to another drive, so be it. If that means that a tonne of the classic Unix configuration files are gone, replaced by a networked configuration database, so be it. Apple is not afraid to break things in order to make something better. The result has been to become the first trillion-dollar computer company, and hundreds of millions of happy customers. Linux gives you choices, lets you pick what you want, work the way you want... and despite offering the results for free, the result has been about 1% of the desktop market and basically zero of the tablet and smartphone markets. Ubuntu made a valiant effort to make a desktop of Mac-like simplicity, and it successfully went from a new entrant in a busy marketplace in 2004 to being the #1 desktop Linux within a decade. It has made virtually no dent on the non-Linux world, though. After 20 years of this, Google (after *bitter* internal argument) introduced ChromeOS, a Linux which takes away *all* your choices. It only runs on Google hardware, has no apps, no desktop, no package management, no choices at all. It gives you a dead cheap, virus-proof computer that gets you on the Web. In less time than Ubuntu took to win about 1% of the Windows market over to Linux, ChromeBooks persuaded about one third of the world laptop buying market to switch to Linux. More Chromebooks sell every year -- tens of millions -- than Ubuntu users *in total since it lauched*. What effect has this had on desktop Linux? Zero. None at all. If that is the price of success, they are not willing to pay it. What Google has done is so unspeakable foul, so wrong, so blasphemous, t
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Eric: I do have some experience with writing a simple adapter for Dutch text to speech long ago, so I am actually aware of the limitations of the technology. Even now, youtubers who prefer to stay anonymous use annoyingly artifically sounding speech engines. I think I even have a chip from back when it was important to offload speech output from the CPU to dedicated hardware somewhere in my collection: I made a couple of Arduino projects. One drove a SpeakJet speech synthesiser chip. I tried to make that American voice express Australian phrases. So I discovered some dialectical differences. American English is rhotic--whereas Australian English is non-rhotic. English orthography (spelling)--does not guide how a speaker pronounces a word. Take for example "I drove my car to the bar to play cards.". An Aussie says "I drove my kaa to the baa to play kaads". As in "Baa, baa, black sheep", without pronouncing any `r's. Australian English Also has the triphthong "oua". So an Aussie pronounces "Once one was", as "Ooanss ouann ouazz". -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hello Karen, On 25 Jun 2021, at 4:46, Karen Lewellen wrote: > I use sshdos to reach a Ubuntu shell, but even in Ubuntu the links and elinks > JavaScript falls short in places, especially if cloudflare is being used. do you know "browsh"? https://www.brow.sh/ It is an up-to-date browser based on Firefox that renders all Javascript, CSS, HTML5, WebGL and even video as text. It can be used from DOS via SSH (SSHDOS) on a Ubuntu shell, but might render more modern pages compared to Links. Greetings Carsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Karen, On 24 Jun 2021, at 23:49, Karen Lewellen wrote: > Links for DOS, for what it is, opens some doors, but not all, something I > would happily pay to see corrected. I know the tunein.com website (I've used it myself from time to time). I use a command line application (on MacOS) to access youtube videos and music streams (The application is called mps-youtube and is written in Python). This application is not a browser but is specially tailored towards youtube in such that it uses the Youtube API and knows how to extract information from the Youtube website. I guess something similar would be theoretical possible for the tunein.com website, even as a DOS application. However it would be much work to write such an application, but less work than getting a general purpose browser such as Links enhanced to be able to browse the tunein.com page. One possible issue I see is that a page such as tunein.com could try to make accessing the music streams without a full browser very difficult, as they might change the page structure frequently. Webpages like tunein.com often make their money through advertisement, and they try to prevent all ways that users can access the content of the page without seeing the advertisements. As far as I see, tunein.com does not provide the music/radio content themself, but they aggregate content from other places (such as German radio stations). So maybe to reach your goal, an alternative solution might be to have a command line tool that aggregates web radio stations in the same way tunein.com does, but without using the tunein.com website. Still, creating such an application is quite difficult. I myself as a developer would have no idea if under DOS it is possible to get useable audio streaming via network. If I was tasked by a customer to design a solution, I would write the frontend in DOS (to browse and select the audio streams), and that front end would communicate via network or serial like with a small Linux system (Raspberry PI style) attached to the DOS computer. The Linux box would be doing the downloading of the audio stream and the audio processing. The user would not interact with the Linux system at all, all interaction would be on DOS, but the Linux "box" would be a "hardware" extension for audio stream processing. Greetings Carsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Karen: Thanks for the info. The disabled are varied. And one's life experience is subjective. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Eric, clearly you do not know the difference between software and hardware speech, if you can even suggest I risk myself ..again, by talking of Linux below. The only point I will speak to is one that echos your own. If Links incorporated additional forms of JavaScript then the one used, same can be said for e-links, then for me personally those browsers might be just fine. I use sshdos to reach a Ubuntu shell, but even in Ubuntu the links and elinks JavaScript falls short in places, especially if cloudflare is being used. In the case of Links for dos, there are two problems, the JavaScript one, and the lack of automatic speech in links for dos. It is not a problem for the editions of the software incorporated into the Ubuntu shell, such as the one dreamhost provides with its shared hosting accounts. I keep meaning to write the developers about this issue, but have not found the time. as for Dos adaptive technology having the ability to manage graphics, it depends on how the graphical interface is written and the nature of the tool, there are scores of them after all. certainly I want a DOS only solution, I use only DOS, and this is a list called freedos. If I want to be reminded of all the Linux problems, I need only read the lists like speakup, where even in the command line Linux cannot find a dectalk USB. Lastly text to speech is not a screen reader. Opting out of further discussion, We have a good 12 years of miscommunication, and I have no vested interest in talking to walls. On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote: Karen, I was not aware that Linux screen reader voices trigger seizures. Nobody is forcing you to use those, or even to use Linux at all. Not sure why exactly mentioning Braille is evil. The underlying software infrastructure task is the same: Take text from an app and transform it to another output modality. Even back in the days of CTTY COM1 with DOS, the problem existed that not all apps are using the proper interfaces to be redirectable and between the lines, I also wanted to express my doubts that Blue Lion would be part of the solution, as proposed by Liam, but I have no OS/2 adaptive technology experience myself. My reference to text oriented browsers was based on the assumption that in DOS, adaptive technology would NOT have a standardized interface to communicate with graphical applications, because DOS does not provide graphical building blocks to the apps. So if you use Arachne or Dillo in DOS, there might be problems which you could avoid by using a text based browser in DOS. If there are NO problems with your DOS drivers, great, please let us know! Just mentioning that DOS apps with GUI may have issues. Of course Linux does support connecting texts used by graphical applications, at least from more widespread GUI frameworks, to be processed by adaptive technology. As you write, there also is the problem whether the output side of that can work with the style, brand or hardware you prefer to use. My impression was that Liam's suggestion to use OS/2 or Blue Lion was not solving the task at hand either, so I focused on which browsers could be suitable in DOS. Knowing that you had explicitly asked for a DOS based solution. Links for DOS, for what it is, opens some doors, but not all Which features are useful in Links, which are missing? if Linux is such a grand solution, why cannot a graphical installation be configured so it can communicate with physical speech hardware? You mentioned having no Linux driver for your speech hardware, so I expect that problem to be not limited to the installer. Support for hardware speech devices in Linux is quite limited: Knoppix, which explicitly supports the ADRIANE Audio Desktop Reference Implementation and Networking Environment starting at the installation itself, uses ELINKS as browser with both javascript and multimedia support. It also uses ORCA OCR to fetch text from graphical applications IF those fail to have adaptive access to text fields and espeak for text to speech (quality varies a lot depending on installed voices). https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html According to the German SBL (used by Knoppix) documentation, the system supports Papenmeier, Handytech, Baum, Alva, Tiemann and Blazie Braille devices. For text to speech, Apollo2, Vox700, Festival, TTSynth, Speechd and MNROLA are supported. Of course, none of this is relevant for DOS browsers. I do not expect graphical DOS apps to have good compatibility with anything beyond VGA, but of course I am happy to hear about DOS GUI apps which do support more output modalities. I do have some experience with writing a simple adapter for Dutch text to speech long ago, so I am actually aware of the limitations of the technology. Even now, youtubers who prefer to stay anonymous use annoyingly artifically sounding speech engines. I think I even have a chip from back when it was important to offload speech output from the C
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Karen, I was not aware that Linux screen reader voices trigger seizures. Nobody is forcing you to use those, or even to use Linux at all. Not sure why exactly mentioning Braille is evil. The underlying software infrastructure task is the same: Take text from an app and transform it to another output modality. Even back in the days of CTTY COM1 with DOS, the problem existed that not all apps are using the proper interfaces to be redirectable and between the lines, I also wanted to express my doubts that Blue Lion would be part of the solution, as proposed by Liam, but I have no OS/2 adaptive technology experience myself. My reference to text oriented browsers was based on the assumption that in DOS, adaptive technology would NOT have a standardized interface to communicate with graphical applications, because DOS does not provide graphical building blocks to the apps. So if you use Arachne or Dillo in DOS, there might be problems which you could avoid by using a text based browser in DOS. If there are NO problems with your DOS drivers, great, please let us know! Just mentioning that DOS apps with GUI may have issues. Of course Linux does support connecting texts used by graphical applications, at least from more widespread GUI frameworks, to be processed by adaptive technology. As you write, there also is the problem whether the output side of that can work with the style, brand or hardware you prefer to use. My impression was that Liam's suggestion to use OS/2 or Blue Lion was not solving the task at hand either, so I focused on which browsers could be suitable in DOS. Knowing that you had explicitly asked for a DOS based solution. > Links for DOS, for what it is, opens some doors, but not all Which features are useful in Links, which are missing? > if Linux is such a grand solution, why cannot a graphical > installation be configured so it can communicate with physical > speech hardware? You mentioned having no Linux driver for your speech hardware, so I expect that problem to be not limited to the installer. Support for hardware speech devices in Linux is quite limited: Knoppix, which explicitly supports the ADRIANE Audio Desktop Reference Implementation and Networking Environment starting at the installation itself, uses ELINKS as browser with both javascript and multimedia support. It also uses ORCA OCR to fetch text from graphical applications IF those fail to have adaptive access to text fields and espeak for text to speech (quality varies a lot depending on installed voices). https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html According to the German SBL (used by Knoppix) documentation, the system supports Papenmeier, Handytech, Baum, Alva, Tiemann and Blazie Braille devices. For text to speech, Apollo2, Vox700, Festival, TTSynth, Speechd and MNROLA are supported. Of course, none of this is relevant for DOS browsers. I do not expect graphical DOS apps to have good compatibility with anything beyond VGA, but of course I am happy to hear about DOS GUI apps which do support more output modalities. I do have some experience with writing a simple adapter for Dutch text to speech long ago, so I am actually aware of the limitations of the technology. Even now, youtubers who prefer to stay anonymous use annoyingly artifically sounding speech engines. I think I even have a chip from back when it was important to offload speech output from the CPU to dedicated hardware somewhere in my collection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Instrument_SP0256 That thing sounded quite bad even for English. Luckily, hardware speech output devices today just contain their own computers, with dedicated optimized TTS software. > If freedos is never going to provide a proper browser, > how can it claim to be a fully functional operating > system where networking is concerned? Actually DOS does not claim to be a networked operating system at all. There are some de facto standards for network drivers for DOS which are in turn used by DOS applications which implement their own networking, but this is not something provided by DOS as the operating system. So I think it would not be better or worse if you were to find a way to use a Windows browser with low enough system requirements to run it on Japheth's HX RT and HX GUI which lets you run some Windows apps directly inside DOS. Of course this would depend on whether HX can connect to your adaptive technology. In any case, using the world wide web in DOS is something which can be quite frustrating for everybody, but then DOS does not make any promises about networking either. Regards, Eric PS Liam: I am surprised that you have so much experience with screen readers, so maybe you could share some ideas about which of the free Linux TTS engines have which strengths and weaknesses based on what both you and the users you know think about them in recent years? And assuming that Knoppix is quite "German", which Linux distros are your users using with whic
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi, Liam: Disability is a subject that was not taught in my schooling. And some of it "does not show on X-Rays! Best wishes with your learning of the human condition. -- members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
One more point. According to my file of posts, I joined the freedos list in 2009. If after more than a decade, Eric or anyone else believes that a shared label equals a uniformed experience where sight loss or any accessibility situation is concerned, you have likely earned my venom as well. after all there are more than a billion people estimated on the planet who share some form of disability label..and all of them deserve to be asked, not told. Karen On Thu, 24 Jun 2021, Karen Lewellen wrote: Liam, 1. Eric and I have been through these exchanges before...going back years, 2. He did not ask, simply said, in spite of my statement otherwise, that I could use Linux..as if I do not know, living in this body, what I can or cannot use. 3. I need not demonstrate what only applies to myself, since I am not attempting to claim that anyone else should accommodate their needs as I do. As he lead with statements, not questions, has no medical or other background qualifying those statements, and is not directly involved in my care, I owe him nothing, having given my word about my needs. as stated, in many ways adaptive tools are not a feature, they are a part of how one uses their body. He may as well have asked me to change my legs if I were in a wheelchair. I have expressed frustration with his stance in the past, and he choose not to learn. 4. from a different comment, I wonder if someone might work on a modern DOS browser if paid enough. I do apologize to you, as I dare say my tone, for someone unaware of prior list exchanges might seem harsh. Eric, speaking personally, earned those comments by not asking. Why cannot you use Linux instead? Never mind that this is a DOS list...making his stating and assuming, as he often does, fortification for my motivation. The information about little braille use is a search away, and has been the case for decades, so that assumption is indeed stereotypical. Kare On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Liam Proven wrote: On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 at 23:50, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > As for your frankly disturbing stereotypes and generalizations about > adaptive technology and the individuals using it, well, I would hope you > would not tell someone to do themselves physical harm to satisfy your > stereotypes, something you just did to me. This is unfair, undeserved and frankly rude. > I stated that there is no Linux distribution that I can use... You have not demonstrated any actual knowledge of this, though. > you > suggest I use something that I already know could result in my > hospitalization..why exactly? 1. He did not suggest anything of the kind. 2. He did not know anything of the kind, because you have not told us anything about what issues you may or may not have, so we have nothing to go on and no way to decide what is or is not appropriate. 3. You are unfairly throwing serious accusations around, and you should be ashamed of yourself. > I believe I know more about my adaptive needs then yourself. Yes, you do, but if you had told us anything, we could help. You did not. > Screen readers are used by many populations, for > learning disabilities for example, with less than 10% of the > sight loss population reading braille..at all. Oddly enough I have been working with screen reader users professionally for over 15 years now. You don't know about us, we don't know about you. The difference is we are not making assumptions: you are. > You are no medical professional, and until you have personally made use > of adaptive technology daily, for at least 30 years please do not risk > physical danger to another person as you have done here... This is completely bogus. If you ask for info, you get info; you do not get to complain if you do not like it. > Use Linux indeed, and have a Cesar? I presume you mean a seizure. > Linux is out, because the software speech synthesis stimulates my > brain's dizzy centres at best, causing epileptic like reactions at > minimum > and risking unconsciousness with prolong exposure. I have never met or even heard of anything like this in my decade and a half of work experience with sensorily-impaired computer users, including blind, deaf and deaf-blind users. I am starting to doubt that you are being sincere and honest with us here. > In fact that > applies to most software speech for me...which is what Linux graphical > uses. It is what all modern screen readers use, and I personally have used them on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, Android, iOS, and Symbian. The reasons are very simple and clear. 1. It is much cheaper. 2. It needs no hardware, no drivers, no connection, no support, nothing. 3. It is almost infinitely customisable in terms of speed, pitch, gender, regional accent, etc. The reason that software speech generation has replaced hardware is that it is better. Full stop. > Command line Linux, where hardware sp
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Liam, 1. Eric and I have been through these exchanges before...going back years, 2. He did not ask, simply said, in spite of my statement otherwise, that I could use Linux..as if I do not know, living in this body, what I can or cannot use. 3. I need not demonstrate what only applies to myself, since I am not attempting to claim that anyone else should accommodate their needs as I do. As he lead with statements, not questions, has no medical or other background qualifying those statements, and is not directly involved in my care, I owe him nothing, having given my word about my needs. as stated, in many ways adaptive tools are not a feature, they are a part of how one uses their body. He may as well have asked me to change my legs if I were in a wheelchair. I have expressed frustration with his stance in the past, and he choose not to learn. 4. from a different comment, I wonder if someone might work on a modern DOS browser if paid enough. I do apologize to you, as I dare say my tone, for someone unaware of prior list exchanges might seem harsh. Eric, speaking personally, earned those comments by not asking. Why cannot you use Linux instead? Never mind that this is a DOS list...making his stating and assuming, as he often does, fortification for my motivation. The information about little braille use is a search away, and has been the case for decades, so that assumption is indeed stereotypical. Kare On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, Liam Proven wrote: On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 at 23:50, Karen Lewellen wrote: As for your frankly disturbing stereotypes and generalizations about adaptive technology and the individuals using it, well, I would hope you would not tell someone to do themselves physical harm to satisfy your stereotypes, something you just did to me. This is unfair, undeserved and frankly rude. I stated that there is no Linux distribution that I can use... You have not demonstrated any actual knowledge of this, though. you suggest I use something that I already know could result in my hospitalization..why exactly? 1. He did not suggest anything of the kind. 2. He did not know anything of the kind, because you have not told us anything about what issues you may or may not have, so we have nothing to go on and no way to decide what is or is not appropriate. 3. You are unfairly throwing serious accusations around, and you should be ashamed of yourself. I believe I know more about my adaptive needs then yourself. Yes, you do, but if you had told us anything, we could help. You did not. Screen readers are used by many populations, for learning disabilities for example, with less than 10% of the sight loss population reading braille..at all. Oddly enough I have been working with screen reader users professionally for over 15 years now. You don't know about us, we don't know about you. The difference is we are not making assumptions: you are. You are no medical professional, and until you have personally made use of adaptive technology daily, for at least 30 years please do not risk physical danger to another person as you have done here... This is completely bogus. If you ask for info, you get info; you do not get to complain if you do not like it. Use Linux indeed, and have a Cesar? I presume you mean a seizure. Linux is out, because the software speech synthesis stimulates my brain's dizzy centres at best, causing epileptic like reactions at minimum and risking unconsciousness with prolong exposure. I have never met or even heard of anything like this in my decade and a half of work experience with sensorily-impaired computer users, including blind, deaf and deaf-blind users. I am starting to doubt that you are being sincere and honest with us here. In fact that applies to most software speech for me...which is what Linux graphical uses. It is what all modern screen readers use, and I personally have used them on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, Android, iOS, and Symbian. The reasons are very simple and clear. 1. It is much cheaper. 2. It needs no hardware, no drivers, no connection, no support, nothing. 3. It is almost infinitely customisable in terms of speed, pitch, gender, regional accent, etc. The reason that software speech generation has replaced hardware is that it is better. Full stop. Command line Linux, where hardware speech is possible for some, but not me since what I use has no Linux driver, Then you must do what my best friend did: adapt. He had one particular voice that he was almost wedded to. He ran the same voice on home and work computers, on phone, everywhere. To him, computer text was this voice and this voice was text. But about a decade ago he started to encounter problems, because it was in a very old format for HAL that more modern versions of his preferred screen reader, Dolphin Supernova, could not easily read. But he found ways to import and translate it. Later an open source screenreader,
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 at 23:50, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > As for your frankly disturbing stereotypes and generalizations about > adaptive technology and the individuals using it, well, I would hope you > would not tell someone to do themselves physical harm to satisfy your > stereotypes, something you just did to me. This is unfair, undeserved and frankly rude. > I stated that there is no Linux distribution that I can use... You have not demonstrated any actual knowledge of this, though. > you > suggest I use something that I already know could result in my > hospitalization..why exactly? 1. He did not suggest anything of the kind. 2. He did not know anything of the kind, because you have not told us anything about what issues you may or may not have, so we have nothing to go on and no way to decide what is or is not appropriate. 3. You are unfairly throwing serious accusations around, and you should be ashamed of yourself. > I believe I know more about my adaptive needs then yourself. Yes, you do, but if you had told us anything, we could help. You did not. > Screen readers are used by many populations, for > learning disabilities for example, with less than 10% of the > sight loss population reading braille..at all. Oddly enough I have been working with screen reader users professionally for over 15 years now. You don't know about us, we don't know about you. The difference is we are not making assumptions: you are. > You are no medical professional, and until you have personally made use > of adaptive technology daily, for at least 30 years please do not risk > physical danger to another person as you have done here... This is completely bogus. If you ask for info, you get info; you do not get to complain if you do not like it. > Use Linux indeed, and have a Cesar? I presume you mean a seizure. > Linux is out, because the software speech synthesis stimulates my > brain's dizzy centres at best, causing epileptic like reactions at minimum > and risking unconsciousness with prolong exposure. I have never met or even heard of anything like this in my decade and a half of work experience with sensorily-impaired computer users, including blind, deaf and deaf-blind users. I am starting to doubt that you are being sincere and honest with us here. > In fact that > applies to most software speech for me...which is what Linux graphical > uses. It is what all modern screen readers use, and I personally have used them on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, Android, iOS, and Symbian. The reasons are very simple and clear. 1. It is much cheaper. 2. It needs no hardware, no drivers, no connection, no support, nothing. 3. It is almost infinitely customisable in terms of speed, pitch, gender, regional accent, etc. The reason that software speech generation has replaced hardware is that it is better. Full stop. >Command line Linux, where hardware speech is possible for some, but > not me since what I use has no Linux driver, Then you must do what my best friend did: adapt. He had one particular voice that he was almost wedded to. He ran the same voice on home and work computers, on phone, everywhere. To him, computer text was this voice and this voice was text. But about a decade ago he started to encounter problems, because it was in a very old format for HAL that more modern versions of his preferred screen reader, Dolphin Supernova, could not easily read. But he found ways to import and translate it. Later an open source screenreader, NVDA, replaced Supernova for him, and he brought the voice across again, but it did not support all the facilities in Supernova, so he had to switch. > still has the same > browser limitations outlined, browsers that have not been compiled to > work with proprietary forms of JavaScript. Javascript is not proprietary, but it is almost impossible to capture its output. Graphical output in a graphical program needs very clever and elaborate programming to intercept and read. > Still, if Linux is such a grand solution, why cannot a graphical > installation be configured so it can communicate with physical > speech hardware? For the reasons I specified above. > It is already using soundcards, though be it with what many consider > dreadful results. Actually, all my blind friends love modern screen readers and their power and flexibility. And of course that, unlike in the days of JAWS and HAL and Supernova, they don't need to pay as much as a 2nd computer would cost to have built in speech. Many have switched to Macs where a pretty good screen reader is built in. Mind you, Apple do not know how to sell it. You can read about our experiences with that over on my tech blog, from 11 years ago. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/18605.html > If you actually lived this experience rather than suggesting risky behavior > you might be aware of how poor even for those who lack physical issues, > the quality of Linux software speech is, for indi
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 at 14:38, Eric Auer wrote: > > This is not true for apps which use DOS extenders. Those > can use several gigabytes of memory. There even are some > proof of concept extenders which let you use more than > 4 GB of RAM. OK, good point. I hadn't considered that. I still think that nobody is likely to even try to implement a modern browser for DOS, though. > > Only some ancient PCMCIA WiFi cards have DOS drivers, > but you can use an external bridge box to connect to > your WiFi by LAN cable. True. I have used such a solution on a RISC OS machine before now. It brings additional power, complexity and accessibility issues, though. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Eric, First, speaking personally I can confirm your statement about memory. I currently have almost a gig of memory is this MS. dos only computer, only needing to patch a software program once to insure it ran smoothly. As for your frankly disturbing stereotypes and generalizations about adaptive technology and the individuals using it, well, I would hope you would not tell someone to do themselves physical harm to satisfy your stereotypes, something you just did to me. I stated that there is no Linux distribution that I can use...and you suggest I use something that I already know could result in my hospitalization..why exactly? I believe I know more about my adaptive needs then yourself. Adaptive technology often serves as substitutions for, or extensions of bodily activity. hands, eyes, ears, brains, and combinations of the above. Screen readers are used by many populations, for learning disabilities for example, with less than 10% of the sight loss population reading braille..at all. You are no medical professional, and until you have personally made use of adaptive technology daily, for at least 30 years please do not risk physical danger to another person as you have done here...in fact even then you would only be expert where your own body's accommodation requirements are concerned. Use Linux indeed, and have a Cesar? Linux is out, because the software speech synthesis stimulates my brain's dizzy centres at best, causing epileptic like reactions at minimum and risking unconsciousness with prolong exposure. In fact that applies to most software speech for me...which is what Linux graphical uses. Command line Linux, where hardware speech is possible for some, but not me since what I use has no Linux driver, still has the same browser limitations outlined, browsers that have not been compiled to work with proprietary forms of JavaScript. Links for DOS, for what it is, opens some doors, but not all, something I would happily pay to see corrected. Still, if Linux is such a grand solution, why cannot a graphical installation be configured so it can communicate with physical speech hardware? It is already using soundcards, though be it with what many consider dreadful results. If you actually lived this experience rather than suggesting risky behavior you might be aware of how poor even for those who lack physical issues, the quality of Linux software speech is, for individuals that need access for learning reasons, as well as for those experiencing blindness. Kindly do not pretend to be expert in an area involving accommodations before your ignorance hurts someone. I know enough to discount your stance, but someone else might make the mistake of taking your word, only to suffer afterwards. If freedos is never going to provide a proper browser, how can it claim to be a fully functional operating system where networking is concerned? Browsing is a part of networking in many cases. Karen On Thu, 24 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote: Hi Liam, There is no modern browser for DOS -- but more to the point, there never will be. There is for example Dillo, which is not bad, but graphical: https://sourceforge.net/projects/fltk-dos/ A DOS app can be a maximum of about 620-630k of memory. This is not true for apps which use DOS extenders. Those can use several gigabytes of memory. There even are some proof of concept extenders which let you use more than 4 GB of RAM. You can use text oriented browsers such as LYNX, LINKS, W3M, ELINKS and similar. The problem often is that they do not support javascript or modern HTTPS protocols. There is no wireless LAN support for DOS that I know of. Only some ancient PCMCIA WiFi cards have DOS drivers, but you can use an external bridge box to connect to your WiFi by LAN cable. You could of course also use Linux, which also has some screen reader and Braille friendly distros, but as the question is about DOS, the real question is which text oriented DOS web browser supports tunein.com As expected, it relies heavily on javascript, but you could probably write a parser to extract the actual stream locations. I believe such things have been done as Arachne plugins for youtube, but they are chronically outdated, which probably makes them non-functioning on current youtube? Arachne is a graphical web browser for DOS. https://tunein.com/radio/home/ According to https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/ about tunein.com, the site does not support SSL 2 or 3 any more (which is good, those are old and insecure) but it supports TLS 1.0 to 1.2, although sites SHOULD not support TLS 1.0 or 1.1 (also too old) and SHOULD have support for TLS 1.3 already. Supported modern ciphers???: ECDHE RSA with AES256 or AES128 GCM, ECDHE + CHACHA20 POLY1305, all with either SHA256 or SHA384. Supported outdated cipher components: AES128 or AES256 CBC, RSA without ECDHE. The site would use TLS 1.0 on the following old software: And
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
Hi Liam, > There is no modern browser for DOS -- but more to the point, there > never will be. There is for example Dillo, which is not bad, but graphical: https://sourceforge.net/projects/fltk-dos/ > A DOS app can be a maximum of about 620-630k of memory. This is not true for apps which use DOS extenders. Those can use several gigabytes of memory. There even are some proof of concept extenders which let you use more than 4 GB of RAM. You can use text oriented browsers such as LYNX, LINKS, W3M, ELINKS and similar. The problem often is that they do not support javascript or modern HTTPS protocols. > There is no wireless LAN support for DOS that I know of. Only some ancient PCMCIA WiFi cards have DOS drivers, but you can use an external bridge box to connect to your WiFi by LAN cable. You could of course also use Linux, which also has some screen reader and Braille friendly distros, but as the question is about DOS, the real question is which text oriented DOS web browser supports tunein.com As expected, it relies heavily on javascript, but you could probably write a parser to extract the actual stream locations. I believe such things have been done as Arachne plugins for youtube, but they are chronically outdated, which probably makes them non-functioning on current youtube? Arachne is a graphical web browser for DOS. https://tunein.com/radio/home/ According to https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/ about tunein.com, the site does not support SSL 2 or 3 any more (which is good, those are old and insecure) but it supports TLS 1.0 to 1.2, although sites SHOULD not support TLS 1.0 or 1.1 (also too old) and SHOULD have support for TLS 1.3 already. Supported modern ciphers: ECDHE RSA with AES256 or AES128 GCM, ECDHE + CHACHA20 POLY1305, all with either SHA256 or SHA384. Supported outdated cipher components: AES128 or AES256 CBC, RSA without ECDHE. The site would use TLS 1.0 on the following old software: Android 2.3 to 4.3, Baidu 2015, (MSIE 7 to 10 on old Windows: Firefox or Chrome on Windows XP would already use TLS 1.2), Java 6 or 7, any OPENSSL 0.9 based software, Safari 5 and some 6. So a browser for DOS which wants to be able to use the site at all via HTTPS will have to use OPENSSL 1.0 or newer or another SSL/TLS library which supports at least TLS 1.0 but preferably TLS 1.2 or even TLS 1.3 to be future-proof. Can some DOS browser users here tell me how modern the HTTPS compatibility of their preferred DOS web browsers is at the moment? Note that "Retrozilla" can give you TLS 1.2 HTTPS and HTML5 even on ancient Windows 98, 95 and NT (!) based on a fork of SeaMonkey 1.1.19, but even that is not modern enough in terms of multimedia codecs and javascript compatibility to view Youtube clips. Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] tunein.com and freedos?
On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 at 03:36, Karen Lewellen wrote: > > If so, what are you using for browser and playback? There is no modern browser for DOS -- but more to the point, there never will be. A DOS app can be a maximum of about 620-630k of memory. A modern browser can take approaching 1000× more than that and indeed at least one mainstream modern browser, Google Chrome, no longer supports 32-bit Linux at all. Between the very complex Document Object Model (DOM) of a web page required, and the Javascript interpreter needed to manipulate that, and a JIT compiler for Javascript to run that at a decent speed... fitting it all into 640kB is not possible. If you like the DOS family of OSes, and want to stay in that general family, but for whatever reason you do not want to run MS Windows, have you considered OS/2? It is still alive and can run on modern hardware. The current version is called Blue Lion and is sold by Arca Noae: https://www.arcanoae.com/blue-lion/ It natively supports DOS apps as well as its own OS/2 apps and Windows 3.x apps, so there is a very large selection of (admittedly now quite old) software out there for it. > One example where I would consider running freedos would be on a laptop, > outfitted with native networking with a wireless adapter that I could use > for travel. There is no wireless LAN support for DOS that I know of. If some ancient tools can be made to connect, they won't talk to modern Wifi systems, which have undergone multiple generation changes since the DOS era. > There is no existing Linux system that I could run in this fashion, > because for me personally, there is no existing Linux system providing > the adaptive technology I both desire and require. Can you give us some examples of what you need? -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user