Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Parks, Raymond]

"Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory that 
events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward, never back.  
Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?"

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send 
NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

But I like it!   Should happen an odd number of times a year!  Clocks are 
arbitrary anyhow; just wake up with the Sun.

On 3/11/13 3:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
The title sez it all:
Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time |
We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

Basically a petition to either keep DST or standard time, and not flip/flop for 
no apparent reason.  Arizona for example has survived without time change so 
maybe the rest of us can too?

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/eliminate-bi-annual-time-change-caused-daylight-savings-time/ShChxpKh

I am SO sick of this weird, unnecessary attack on my poor ailing metabolism.  
Takes me a week to adjust.  Taint needed.

   -- Owen




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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Owen Densmore]

Its not artificial when my alarm goes off in the morning!

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

>  "Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory
> that events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward,
> never back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?"
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Pamela McCorduck]

Only to human beings.


On Mar 14, 2013, at 2:10 PM, "Parks, Raymond"  wrote:

> "Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory that 
> events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward, never 
> back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?"
> 
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
> 
>> But I like it!   Should happen an odd number of times a year!  Clocks are 
>> arbitrary anyhow; just wake up with the Sun.
>> 
>> On 3/11/13 3:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>> The title sez it all: 
>>> Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time |
>>> We the People: Your Voice in Our Government
>>> 
>>> Basically a petition to either keep DST or standard time, and not flip/flop 
>>> for no apparent reason.  Arizona for example has survived without time 
>>> change so maybe the rest of us can too?
>>> 
>>> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/eliminate-bi-annual-time-change-caused-daylight-savings-time/ShChxpKh
>>> 
>>> I am SO sick of this weird, unnecessary attack on my poor ailing 
>>> metabolism.  Takes me a week to adjust.  Taint needed.
>>> 
>>>-- Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> 
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Pamela McCorduck]

That "only to human beings" was my reply to the question of whether time is 
relevant. It reminds me of when I do my Pilates, and my instructor is yelling, 
Up, UP , UPPP!!! and I think, remember, gravity is a weak force.


On Mar 14, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Its not artificial when my alarm goes off in the morning!
> 
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:
> "Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory that 
> events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward, never 
> back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?"
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

Shoot your alarm clock
then your TV
then your entire digital ecology
then your other foot
then sell the gun to the city of Santa Fe
And don't look back!

Its not artificial when my alarm goes off in the morning!

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Parks, Raymond > wrote:


"Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the
theory that events occur in a linear direction, at all times.
 Always forward, never back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is
time relevant?"




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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Gillian Densmore]

Typical stomping grounds for philosophy but the practical issue is that
some of us object to looking at the clock and being told by a dead
president from a while back that it isn't 830 at night it's actualy 930 at
night and it's about that time to unwind. Some states and few reservations
seem to get along just fine w/o that nonsense. I know the rest of us can
it's not as if sudenly the dynamics of how the earth rotates in
relationship to the sun dramitcly changed- at least not sufficiently to
warrent a flip flop.

As to time being a construct- that's a mix of philosphy and at least
theoretical cosmotology- I can't remember where I read it some famous
person stated fairly certainly that the thermo dynamic sense of time and a
potential carrier particle of some sort interacting with us (ie humans and
the 3rd rock from the sun) such that while events do have a astronomicly
small chance to accur out of sequence that by and large it seems as if they
must happen in a certain order. The only exception is if we were
significantly closer to the galactic core where that might not be true. for
reasons I don't understand something having to do with the quanta of time
being less stable than it is where our solar system is located.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

>  "Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory
> that events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward,
> never back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?"
>
>Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
>  On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>
>  But I like it!   Should happen an odd number of times a year!  Clocks
> are arbitrary anyhow; just wake up with the Sun.
>
> On 3/11/13 3:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> The title sez it all:
> Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time |
> We the People: Your Voice in Our Government
>
>  Basically a petition to either keep DST or standard time, and not
> flip/flop for no apparent reason.  Arizona for example has survived without
> time change so maybe the rest of us can too?
>
>
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/eliminate-bi-annual-time-change-caused-daylight-savings-time/ShChxpKh
>
>  I am SO sick of this weird, unnecessary attack on my poor ailing
> metabolism.  Takes me a week to adjust.  Taint needed.
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Carl Tollander]

There are lots of different kinds of time; they're useful in different 
contexts.   They're all "real" relative to those contexts.   If the 
context is too many degrees away, the associated time may be locally 
correct, but is less relevant.


So I guess that would mean that travel between contexts is a kind of 
"time travel".


However the kinds of time used by the rooster next door often seem 
inaccessible to me.


On 3/14/13 12:50 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
That "only to human beings" was my reply to the question of whether 
time is relevant. It reminds me of when I do my Pilates, and my 
instructor is yelling, Up, UP , UPPP!!! and I think, remember, gravity 
is a weak force.



On Mar 14, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Owen Densmore > wrote:



Its not artificial when my alarm goes off in the morning!

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Parks, Raymond > wrote:


"Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the
theory that events occur in a linear direction, at all times.
 Always forward, never back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is
time relevant?"


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com





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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Nicholas Thompson]

So, in the fall, we don't change our clocks.  For a while we just continue
doing everything an hour ahead of everybody else and feel virtuous for it.
Because we are retired, it doesn't make much difference.  About two weeks in
we change our clocks quietly.  But it never works.  Even without the TV and
the daily office schedule, we just feel out of whack with the world and the
metabolic thing is just spread out over two weeks.  Hard to explain.  I
guess time really is a social construct.  

 

In the spring, we just change all the clocks right away.  

 

The result of this experiment is that Spring is easier.  

 

Nick 

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Parks, Raymond
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:10 PM
To: ; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

 

"Time.  Time is an artificial construct.  An idea based on the theory that
events occur in a linear direction, at all times.  Always forward, never
back.  Is the concept of time correct?  Is time relevant?" 

 

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov

SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)

 

 

 

On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:





But I like it!   Should happen an odd number of times a year!  Clocks are
arbitrary anyhow; just wake up with the Sun.

On 3/11/13 3:25 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

The title sez it all:  

Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time |

We the People: Your Voice in Our Government 

 

Basically a petition to either keep DST or standard time, and not flip/flop
for no apparent reason.  Arizona for example has survived without time
change so maybe the rest of us can too?

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/eliminate-bi-annual-time-change-ca
used-daylight-savings-time/ShChxpKh 

 

I am SO sick of this weird, unnecessary attack on my poor ailing metabolism.
Takes me a week to adjust.  Taint needed.

 

   -- Owen







FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Arlo Barnes]

I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but why
not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most people
use some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays anyway, and even
physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult (I think) to redesign
to change smoothly throughout the year.
-Arlo James Barnes

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Owen Densmore]

I like it!  Assuming spherical cows .. i.e. an hour's shift twice a year
(although they are not symmetric .. more days of DST than std time) .. we'd
shift 60 seconds per 6 months or 10sec/month or roughly .33 sec/day.

The asymmetry would make things fairly non-linear, but easily computable
and managed by the time servers.  Our watches would have to be "smart" but
that's been coming anyway with the iWatch rumored out soon.  And making
slight adjustments to my fav old time clocks would just be a monthly tweak
.. likely the newspapers would keep a daily time column much like the
weather.

   -- Owen

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Arlo Barnes  wrote:

> I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but why
> not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most people
> use some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays anyway, and even
> physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult (I think) to redesign
> to change smoothly throughout the year.
> -Arlo James Barnes
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

There was a time when every village had their clock tower in the square 
and they set it as the town elders saw fit and adjusted it similarly.  
No NNTP, no WWV Radio, only the (constantly shifting around) Sun, Moon, 
Stars.   You wanna know what time it is?  Look out the window toward the 
square... then came rail and telegraph and ...


I say just shoot your alarm (and... ...  ... )
I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but 
why not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most 
people use some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays 
anyway, and even physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult 
(I think) to redesign to change smoothly throughout the year.

-Arlo James Barnes



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Joshua Thorp]

But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?  There 
are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But these things do 
not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the collective cost?

I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.

--joshua

On Mar 14, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Arlo Barnes  wrote:

> I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but why 
> not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most people use 
> some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays anyway, and even 
> physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult (I think) to redesign to 
> change smoothly throughout the year.
> -Arlo James Barnes
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Nicholas Thompson]

I heard somewhere that it is a plot by the fast food industry.  Apparently
fast food sales go up dramatically after daylight saving time comes on.
(!?)

 N

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Thorp
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But these
things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the collective
cost?

I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.

--joshua

On Mar 14, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Arlo Barnes  wrote:

> I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but why
not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most people use
some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays anyway, and even
physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult (I think) to redesign
to change smoothly throughout the year.
> -Arlo James Barnes
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe 
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

I heard somewhere that it is a plot by the fast food industry.  Apparently
fast food sales go up dramatically after daylight saving time comes on.
(!?)

  N
I'm amazed when restaurants don't extend their closing by an hour when 
DST comes around... as if people's hunger clocks can be adjusted as 
easily as their wall clocks can.   Often restaurants which closed "much 
too early" already are are closed before dark or even sundown!


Not very civilized.   And about as enlightened as Google letting Doug 
buy an Android and then wondering why the blogosphere just lit up like a 
fission reaction...  Didn't Sergey and Larry even  TALK to Admiral Nanos 
before doing such a rash thing?


If your preferred eating place is closed when you are ready to eat, the 
McD drive in is too easy perhaps?  Also, while the original concept was 
to *reduce* energy consumption, I think the contemporary experience is 
that shifting people's work schedules deeper into the morning gives them 
more evening time to frolic which in today's culture often means "consume!"


As much as I want to ignore the clock and tell everyone else to ignore 
the clock (and shoot it if they have the ammo for it), I get snookered 
by it too.  Everyone *else's* schedules shift abruptly, the traffic 
patterns follow the clock (though there is some smear) not the sun, 
etc.   My solar house is a clock (sundial) of sorts. For example, the 
active roof-air-to-floor exchange should have cut off about 1 hour ago 
and here it is still chugging away!   When it quits I will get up, go do 
some more chores and try to come back to this infernal machine and get 
some work done, ignoring the Siren call of FRIAM (and other online 
distractions).


- S


-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Joshua Thorp
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But these
things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the collective
cost?

I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.

--joshua

On Mar 14, 2013, at 11:59 PM, Arlo Barnes  wrote:


I have heard a proposal for doing smaller adjustments more often - but why

not take that to the logical extreme and do it continuously? Most people use
some form or other of computer to tell time nowadays anyway, and even
physical mechanisms would not be extremely difficult (I think) to redesign
to change smoothly throughout the year.

-Arlo James Barnes

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
at St. John's College to unsubscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Owen Densmore]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:

> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
>  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
> these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
> collective cost?
>
> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>

Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during
the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard
time" is to be decided.

   -- Owen

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Tom Johnson]

I like daylight savings.  Gives another point of semi-regularity to my year.

-tj

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:
>
>> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
>>  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
>> these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
>> collective cost?
>>
>> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>>
>
> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during
> the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard
> time" is to be decided.
>
>-- Owen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
==
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --   Santa Fe, NM
USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com
==

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

  
  


  


Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time
  shifting during the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long
  (my preference) or "standard time" is to be decided.
  

I'm not sure anyone (at our latitude) is going to like *arriving* at
work an hour *before* sunrise? 

Changing clocks is silly, but so is slavishly following the clock
when your metabolism and instincts tell you not to.  If you like
DST, get up earlier during the summer... lobby your favorite coffee
house to open an hour earlier in the morning come equinox or so...
don't amend the constitution to move the sun in the sky and set the
value of Pi to 3 for administrative convenience or whimsy!



  


   -- Owen 
  
  
  
  
  
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Daylight_Saving_Time_3.svg




Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting 
during the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) 
or "standard time" is to be decided.
I'm not sure anyone (at our latitude) is going to like *arriving* at 
work an hour *before* sunrise?


Changing clocks is silly, but so is slavishly following the clock when 
your metabolism and instincts tell you not to.  If you like DST, get 
up earlier during the summer... lobby your favorite coffee house to 
open an hour earlier in the morning come equinox or so... don't amend 
the constitution to move the sun in the sky and set the value of Pi to 
3 for administrative convenience or whimsy!




   -- Owen



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Douglas Roberts]

I like daylight savings too, because I like listening to people bitch about
it.

--Doug


On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:

> I like daylight savings.  Gives another point of semi-regularity to my
> year.
>
> -tj
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp wrote:
>>
>>> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
>>>  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
>>> these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
>>> collective cost?
>>>
>>> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting
>> during the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or
>> "standard time" is to be decided.
>>
>>-- Owen
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ==
> J. T. Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   --   Santa Fe, NM 
> USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> Twitter: jtjohnson
> http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com
> ==
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
* 
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Russ Abbott]

I too like DST -- mainly because it stays light later in the evening and
dark later in the morning. Strange, this is what it was supposed to
accomplish. It actually works.  Why change it?


*-- Russ Abbott*
*_*
***  Professor, Computer Science*
*  California State University, Los Angeles*

*  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
*  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
  Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
*  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
  CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
*_*


On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> I like daylight savings too, because I like listening to people bitch
> about it.
>
> --Doug
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:
>
>> I like daylight savings.  Gives another point of semi-regularity to my
>> year.
>>
>> -tj
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp wrote:
>>>
 But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
 these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
 collective cost?

 I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.

>>>
>>> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting
>>> during the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or
>>> "standard time" is to be decided.
>>>
>>>-- Owen
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ==
>> J. T. Johnson
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   --   Santa Fe, NM 
>> USA
>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>> Twitter: jtjohnson
>> http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com
>> ==
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
>  *Doug Roberts
> d...@parrot-farm.net*
> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
> * 
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Gillian Densmore]

For some of us with a already wonky metabalism we don't need help with it
being more wonky by some extremely dead person for gigles I hit wikiepedia
with DST and the list is at this link 
For those using plain text:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dst

work safe.

Clicking on the daylight savings time it says:

"The modern idea of daylight saving was first proposed in 1895 by George
Vernon Hudson 
[9]and
it was first implemented during the First
World War . "

Well thank you Hudson for messing around with my metablism. Humans are
seeking peace and some of us are interested in persuing science.



On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Russ Abbott  wrote:

> I too like DST -- mainly because it stays light later in the evening and
> dark later in the morning. Strange, this is what it was supposed to
> accomplish. It actually works.  Why change it?
>
>
> *-- Russ Abbott*
> *_*
> ***  Professor, Computer Science*
> *  California State University, Los Angeles*
>
> *  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
> *  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
>   Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
> *  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
>   CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
> *_*
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
>> I like daylight savings too, because I like listening to people bitch
>> about it.
>>
>> --Doug
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:
>>
>>> I like daylight savings.  Gives another point of semi-regularity to my
>>> year.
>>>
>>> -tj
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>>>
 On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp wrote:

> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really
> serve?  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc.
> But these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
> collective cost?
>
> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>

 Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting
 during the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or
 "standard time" is to be decided.

-- Owen

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ==
>>> J. T. Johnson
>>> Institute for Analytic Journalism   --   Santa Fe, NM 
>>> USA
>>> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
>>> Twitter: jtjohnson
>>> http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com
>>> ==
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>  *Doug Roberts
>> d...@parrot-farm.net*
>> *http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*
>> * 
>> 505-455-7333 - Office
>> 505-672-8213 - Mobile*
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Nicholas Thompson]

So Owen.  You  want your school aged grandchildren children standing out by
the mail box in the pitch dark of the night (January, 6am, DST) in rush hour
traffic?  

 

Why does it not work for you just to get up when you feel like and let us
lemmings shift back to standard time when we feel like it? 

 

And why would one petition the white house?  As if it's Obama who changes
the clocks?  As Pogo famously said, "We have seen the enemy and they is we."

 

Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the time
change. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 1:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

 

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:

But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But these
things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the collective
cost?

I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.

 

Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during
the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard
time" is to be decided.

 

   -- Owen 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Douglas Roberts]

I feel both insulted, and flattered. I can live with that.


On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> So Owen.  You  want your school aged grandchildren children standing out
> by the mail box in the pitch dark of the night (January, 6am, DST) in rush
> hour traffic?  
>
> ** **
>
> Why does it not work for you just to get up when you feel like and let us
> lemmings shift back to standard time when we feel like it? 
>
> ** **
>
> And why would one petition the white house?  As if it’s Obama who changes
> the clocks?  As Pogo famously said, “We have seen the enemy and they is we.”
> 
>
> ** **
>
> Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the
> time change. 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Friday, March 15, 2013 1:39 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
> bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:
> 
>
> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
>  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
> these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
> collective cost?
>
> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>
> ** **
>
> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during
> the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard
> time" is to be decided.
>
> ** **
>
>-- Owen 
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*<http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
* <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins>
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Gillian Densmore]

Yes he can actually he can abolish the time shift- and it looks like most
of the rest of the world gets along just fine w/o one.

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> So Owen.  You  want your school aged grandchildren children standing out
> by the mail box in the pitch dark of the night (January, 6am, DST) in rush
> hour traffic?  
>
> ** **
>
> Why does it not work for you just to get up when you feel like and let us
> lemmings shift back to standard time when we feel like it? 
>
> ** **
>
> And why would one petition the white house?  As if it’s Obama who changes
> the clocks?  As Pogo famously said, “We have seen the enemy and they is we.”
> 
>
> ** **
>
> Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the
> time change. 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick 
>
> ** **
>
> Nick
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Friday, March 15, 2013 1:39 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
> bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:
> 
>
> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?
>  There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But
> these things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the
> collective cost?
>
> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
>
> ** **
>
> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during
> the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard
> time" is to be decided.
>
> ** **
>
>-- Owen 
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Edward Angel]

I doubt this is still true but when I was younger the maps showed that Saudi 
Arabia was on solar time, i.e. the time depended on where you were standing.

Ed
__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel


On Mar 15, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

> Yes he can actually he can abolish the time shift- and it looks like most of 
> the rest of the world gets along just fine w/o one.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Nicholas Thompson 
>  wrote:
> So Owen.  You  want your school aged grandchildren children standing out by 
> the mail box in the pitch dark of the night (January, 6am, DST) in rush hour 
> traffic? 
> 
>  
> 
> Why does it not work for you just to get up when you feel like and let us 
> lemmings shift back to standard time when we feel like it?
> 
>  
> 
> And why would one petition the white house?  As if it’s Obama who changes the 
> clocks?  As Pogo famously said, “We have seen the enemy and they is we.”
> 
>  
> 
> Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the time 
> change.
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 1:39 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the 
> bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time
> 
>  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Joshua Thorp  wrote:
> 
> But is the time change even needed?  What purpose does it really serve?  
> There are lots of stories about it rooted in wartime/economy etc. But these 
> things do not seem to be valid anymore.  And are they worth the collective 
> cost?
> 
> I have to say I prefer light later in the day though.
> 
>  
> 
> Agreed.  I do like the petition's approach: simply no time shifting during 
> the year.  Whether it stays DST all year long (my preference) or "standard 
> time" is to be decided.
> 
>  
> 
>-- Owen 
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

D-

I feel both insulted, and flattered. I can live with that.
hardly... I can hear you rolling in it (like a dog in an animal 
carcass)  from 8 miles away! ;)
Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the 
time change.

-S

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Douglas Roberts]

Rolling in shit is highly underrated.
On Mar 15, 2013 6:08 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:

>  D-
>
> I feel both insulted, and flattered. I can live with that.
>
> hardly... I can hear you rolling in it (like a dog in an animal carcass)
> from 8 miles away! ;)
>
> Sorry to be so cranky.  I am feeling very Douggish today.  Must be the
> time change.
>
> -S
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

Rolling in shit is highly underrated.


Oh yeh... dogs like to do that too!

Mine can do some amazing shoulder rolls at full gallop when she comes 
across something.





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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Douglas Roberts]

How are you doing, neighbor?
On Mar 15, 2013 6:23 PM, "Steve Smith"  wrote:

> Rolling in shit is highly underrated.
>>
>>  Oh yeh... dogs like to do that too!
>
> Mine can do some amazing shoulder rolls at full gallop when she comes
> across something.
>
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Arlo Barnes]

Steve, thank you for linking the WikiMedia Commons SVG, I like vector
graphics, particularly ones that are also infographics.
However, it does not display what is really going on with DST. Although
everybody has stories about how it came about and was implemented and why
(for factories, for gas lamps, whatever) including the urban legend that
Ben Franklin invented it, the general goal behind all of those specific
purposes is to align more closely the clock day with the light day. For
example, a clock says 0600; how light is it outside? Is it dawn? Earlier?
Later? Well, that changes throughout the year because the Earth is tilted.
It would not if the Earth was vertical (to clarify, if it's pole of
rotation was parallel to the pole of orbit) and a year was exactly 365
days, and each day were exactly 24 hours, and if [a more minor factor]
there were no precession, and so on). So what DST is really doing is
shifting the time scale 'down' relative to the light scale (in the WM
diagram [or perhaps *dia*gram]) to more closely 'fit' that sunset/sunrise
curve. Now, yes, we might be able to simply ignore that curve, pick a place
for the time day to start and stick with it; after all, electric lights are
ubiquitous and few of our jobs actually depend on being up at the same time
as the sun (perhaps farmers still, but there are fewer and fewer of them).
But I am saying I think it is possible and doable to have a system that
follows the variance in the amount of daylight versus dark throughout the
year, if we as a society think it is valuable to go that route. After all,
before the invention of more and more specialised calendar systems that is
what people would have considered a day: from sunrise to sunset and the
following dark period, no matter what time of year.
-Arlo James Barnes

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

Arlo -

You sed:
the general goal behind all of those specific purposes is to align 
more closely the clock day with the light day. For example, a clock 
says 0600; how light is it outside? Is it dawn? Earlier? Later? Well, 
that changes throughout the year because the Earth is tilted. It would 
not if the Earth was vertical (to clarify, if it's pole of rotation 
was parallel to the pole of orbit) and a year was exactly 365 days, 
and each day were exactly 24 hours, and if [a more minor factor] there 
were no precession, and so on). So what DST is really doing is 
shifting the time scale 'down' relative to the light scale (in the WM 
diagram [or perhaps *dia*gram]) to more closely 'fit' that 
sunset/sunrise curve.


I'm fine with referencing all activity to "sunrise" and setting clocks 
according to hours/minutes/seconds after sunrise (or before sunset or 
both)...   I prefer to function that way myself... and do so as much as 
I can arrange easily.


I think throughout our pre-industrial history, people's lives *were* 
orchestrated according to roughly "first light", "sunrise", "early 
morning", "mid morning", "mid-day", "mid afternoon", "late afternoon", 
"sunset", "after dark" and occasionally perhaps "Midnight".   So 
mid-morning was not just say ... 9 or 10 AM, it was "halfway-between 
sunrise and noon", a longer period in the summer than in the winter.


 Mechanical clocks, I hypothesize,  naturally were calibrated to a 
single earth rotation or "24 hours".   Calibrating the time-shift to an 
easily identifiable reference such as *high noon* makes a great deal of 
sense.   No other reference is as easily identified while keeping the 24 
hour cycle?


With the advent of long-distance communication and/or fast travel, it 
naturally made sense to want more perfect (to the minute?) 
synchronization...


I'm not a proponent of making our sexigesimal clock system (60 minute 
hours, 60 second minutes, etc.) into decimal, but if we don't have the 
will or desire or focus to even do that kind of normalization, I can't 
imagine we could redefine "time" in this more radical way.   I think 
GMT, the time zones, and DST are artifacts of the will of *governments* 
to impose common standards across political units.   The Navajo Nation, 
which spans AZ and NM and whose tribal headquarters are in NM (Window 
Rock) have exercised *their* sovereignty by choosing to follow NM time 
throughout their boundaries.  They could have chosen AZ (non DST) time 
but for whatever reason (liked DST? Window Rock is in the NM borders?) 
they choose not to.


I'd prefer to see people choose to use solar time instead of clock time 
for their daily activities.  Rise at sunrise, begin your daily labor 
after a suitable period of preparation (coffee, shower, breakfast, 
newspaper, walk, run, etc.), break at suitable periods (lunch when you 
get hungry, maybe sometime around "high noon"), work until your work is 
done or you feel satisfied you have put in "a good day", maybe take a 
long mid-day "siesta" if you are in a hot climate without AC or perhaps 
just because you like a midday nap or a nice stroll along the Alhambra 
or the Alameda or around the Rotunda or up on the Veranda...   Dinner is 
best eaten in my opinion, just at dusk, whether dusk is 4:30 in 
midwinter or 8 PM in mid summer... then at least a few hours to digest 
and relax before retiring to bed.  And start all over again when the sun 
rises.   Of course, I don't live in Portland OR or London, England or 
any of the other overcast/foggy/smoggy places where the sun's appearance 
is a crapshoot.


Maybe we will have resolved this amongst ourselves in time for the next 
clock shift in the Autumn whereupon we can start all over discussing 
it?!   Meanwhile maybe we can hammer on the damned calendar of months?  
Why are they not moons?  And who wants to deal with stoopid Leap Days 
and days of the month shifting around with days of the week?  Isn't 
having 4 "weeks" aligned with 4 phases of the moon (new moon, waxing 
gibbous, full, waning gibbous) more sensible?  Sure, the moons shift 
around with the sidereal time... the new/full moon doesn't reliably fall 
on solstice (summer nor winter) and the 3rd full moon after solstice 
isn't necessarily the right time to plant... it might be up to a half-a 
moon early by sidereal measures and your seedlings might freeze!


I'm afraid the moral of all this to me is that our (human?) need to 
measure and control and standardize everything is backfiring.  It makes 
about as much sense as declaring "Pi" to be == 3 to make it easier to 
make calculations... as if the Kansas state legislature could warp space 
enough to make such a feature literally true!   It *is* a dense enough 
idea that maybe those dense enough to try it actually *do* warp space 
close to themselves enough to make it so, while contracting the 
4.5Byears of earth's existence into something like 3-5Kyears?


- Steve
==

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Carl Tollander]

I do not think it a bad idea, to get hit upside the head, perhaps, say, 
twice a year, with the notion that was lives on a planet, not a treadmill.


It is at least an opportunity to occasionally discuss astronomy twice a 
year with those who might otherwise remain aloof.   The days get longer, 
the ecliptic appears to move.   We should notice.


Carl

On 3/17/13 9:19 PM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
Steve, thank you for linking the WikiMedia Commons SVG, I like vector 
graphics, particularly ones that are also infographics.
However, it does not display what is really going on with DST. 
Although everybody has stories about how it came about and was 
implemented and why (for factories, for gas lamps, whatever) including 
the urban legend that Ben Franklin invented it, the general goal 
behind all of those specific purposes is to align more closely the 
clock day with the light day. For example, a clock says 0600; how 
light is it outside? Is it dawn? Earlier? Later? Well, that changes 
throughout the year because the Earth is tilted. It would not if the 
Earth was vertical (to clarify, if it's pole of rotation was parallel 
to the pole of orbit) and a year was exactly 365 days, and each day 
were exactly 24 hours, and if [a more minor factor] there were no 
precession, and so on). So what DST is really doing is shifting the 
time scale 'down' relative to the light scale (in the WM diagram [or 
perhaps *dia*gram]) to more closely 'fit' that sunset/sunrise curve. 
Now, yes, we might be able to simply ignore that curve, pick a place 
for the time day to start and stick with it; after all, electric 
lights are ubiquitous and few of our jobs actually depend on being up 
at the same time as the sun (perhaps farmers still, but there are 
fewer and fewer of them).
But I am saying I think it is possible and doable to have a system 
that follows the variance in the amount of daylight versus dark 
throughout the year, if we as a society think it is valuable to go 
that route. After all, before the invention of more and more 
specialised calendar systems that is what people would have considered 
a day: from sunrise to sunset and the following dark period, no matter 
what time of year.

-Arlo James Barnes



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Owen Densmore]

Sorry to bump, but now *another* DST fkup: Europe does not change DST when
the US does.

So today our skype Italian class was shifted, and both Dede and I had to
cancel scheduled events.

If we have to live with time changes, we should at least try to make it
global, we're a pretty global community now and I bet others got hit by
US/Euro/Worldwide differences.

   -- Owen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Steve Smith]

Owen-
Sorry to bump, but now *another* DST fkup: Europe does not change DST 
when the US does.


So today our skype Italian class was shifted, and both Dede and I had 
to cancel scheduled events.


If we have to live with time changes, we should at least try to make 
it global, we're a pretty global community now and I bet others got 
hit by US/Euro/Worldwide differences.
Yup... my Australian colleagues would love it if we made them set their 
clocks forward in *their* Autumn and back in *their* Spring.   They 
could enjoy the *worst* of both the natural sidereal day's limitations 
and our ideal of mucking with it.


Better yet, let's defer to *them* and let them decide when *we* should 
set our clocks forward and back based on *their* preferences and 
convenience... if it got bad enough some of us might just quit 
referencing our clocks!


Let's just get it over with and set Pi == 3 (or 2 or 4 for those with a 
fetish for binary and for "better to be wrong than vague").


I agree that it would be convenient if the Southern Hemisphere could 
spring forward when we fall back and vice-versa... as having to adjust 
by 0 or 1 or 2 hours throughout the year is a bit wonky... but our model 
of solar time is imperfect and any and all adjustments are going to be 
flawed.


- Steve

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Nicholas Thompson]

Owen:

 

The thing that keeps puzzling me about your appeals here is the hidden
assumption (I think I detect) that there is Somebody In Charge.  It's the
parasitic ant model.  There's a species of ant that makes its living by its
fertilized "queens" putting on perfumes and waving their little antenna
until workers of another species pick them up and carry them to their queen,
where upon the parasitic queen jumps on the back of the true queen, bites
her in the back of the neck to terminate her egg laying, and then lays eggs
which are cared for and raised by the parasitized ants.  Faculty members at
universities are particularly prone to the Parasitic Ant Fallacy.  They
think that  if they just go and complain to the President, The World Will
Change.  It's a harmless fantasy in its place, except that it leads to
disparagement of the people who are actually trying to make change, and
getting muck all over themselves in the process.  Viz Obama.  In short, I
suspect you of being a closet royalist.  So there!

 

Nick 

 

 

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 10:35 AM
To: c...@plektyx.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

 

Sorry to bump, but now *another* DST fkup: Europe does not change DST when
the US does.

 

So today our skype Italian class was shifted, and both Dede and I had to
cancel scheduled events.

 

If we have to live with time changes, we should at least try to make it
global, we're a pretty global community now and I bet others got hit by
US/Euro/Worldwide differences.

 

   -- Owen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Joshua Thorp]

But DST is surely mandated by the government and could be undone by the 
government.  Why they even shifted when it occurs by a couple of weeks 
recently.  Well in 2005,  by that royalist Bush and his congress.  Looks like 
these guys actually do have the power to change things.

http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/daylight_saving_time_extended.shtml


--joshua

On Mar 19, 2013, at 11:07 AM, "Nicholas  Thompson"  
wrote:

> Owen:
>  
> The thing that keeps puzzling me about your appeals here is the hidden 
> assumption (I think I detect) that there is Somebody In Charge.  It’s the 
> parasitic ant model.  There’s a species of ant that makes its living by its 
> fertilized “queens” putting on perfumes and waving their little antenna until 
> workers of another species pick them up and carry them to their queen, where 
> upon the parasitic queen jumps on the back of the true queen, bites her in 
> the back of the neck to terminate her egg laying, and then lays eggs which 
> are cared for and raised by the parasitized ants.  Faculty members at 
> universities are particularly prone to the Parasitic Ant Fallacy.  They think 
> that  if they just go and complain to the President, The World Will Change.  
> It’s a harmless fantasy in its place, except that it leads to disparagement 
> of the people who are actually trying to make change, and getting muck all 
> over themselves in the process.  Viz Obama.  In short, I suspect you of being 
> a closet royalist.  So there!
>  
> Nick
>  
>  
>  
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 10:35 AM
> To: c...@plektyx.com; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the 
> bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time
>  
> Sorry to bump, but now *another* DST fkup: Europe does not change DST when 
> the US does.
>  
> So today our skype Italian class was shifted, and both Dede and I had to 
> cancel scheduled events.
>  
> If we have to live with time changes, we should at least try to make it 
> global, we're a pretty global community now and I bet others got hit by 
> US/Euro/Worldwide differences.
>  
>-- Owen
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Owen Densmore]

I think I confused folks: the reference to europe's DSL change being 2
weeks after USA was just an example.  Steve Smith: thanks for making me
recall the north/south difference as well.

I just gotta think we have to
- Change times at the same date universally
- Just stick with standard time
- Build fascinating clocks that Deal With It

But man, my sleep cycle is a bitch to maintain through all this!  Sigh.

   -- Owen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Nicholas Thompson]

Owen, 

 

Why not simply refuse to change your clocks.Don't change when you get up
and go to bed, eat breakfast, etc.   When you make an appointment to meet
somebody, just bear in mind that they are in a different time "zone" from
you.In the fall, for instance, you "remain" in Santa Fe, and allow that
everybody else has "moved" to San Francisco.  Well, except for your friends
in Boston who have moved to Chicago. If you want to meet with us, you
have to be aware that we are living in a different time zone, but you don't
have to change your clocks.  It works beautifully in the fall because if you
forget, you arrive an hour early to things.  Think of it, you would actually
arrive at the beginning of FRIAM.   For me, as a person who is always late
to stuff, it's a great reprieve from embarrassment and humiliation.  

 

Now I am being a bit facetious because I have tried to do it for years and
it does not work.  But I am not sure why it doesn't work.  Evidently the
force of social synchrony is so great one would rather go to the trouble to
clock shift than to listen to Morning Edition after eating breakfast,
instead of during.  

 

What would your fancy clock do.  I suppose it could say,
"Good-Morning-Mr.-Densmore-We-regret-to-tell-you-that-your-noon-appointment-
has-moved-to-San-Francisco-and-will-be-an-hour-late-for-his-appointment."
And"The evening news is regrettably delayed an hour this evening.  ETC."  

 

N

 

 

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the
bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

 

I think I confused folks: the reference to europe's DSL change being 2 weeks
after USA was just an example.  Steve Smith: thanks for making me recall the
north/south difference as well.

 

I just gotta think we have to

- Change times at the same date universally

- Just stick with standard time

- Build fascinating clocks that Deal With It

 

But man, my sleep cycle is a bitch to maintain through all this!  Sigh.

 

   -- Owen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time

[Carl Tollander]

So everyone would have a little bit string (updated incessantly) that 
identified How You Relate To Time.   There could be some ancillary info: 
"Best met when shadows are long" and so forth.   We could go back to the 
"hour of the tiger" way of talking about time.This would open up 
whole new frontiers in scheduling apps.


On 3/20/13 9:32 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:


Owen,

Why not simply refuse to change your clocks.Don't change when you 
get up and go to bed, eat breakfast, etc.   When you make an 
appointment to meet somebody, just bear in mind that they are in a 
different time "zone" from you.In the fall, for instance, you 
"remain" in Santa Fe, and allow that everybody else has "moved" to San 
Francisco.  Well, except for your friends in Boston who have moved to 
Chicago. If you want to meet with us, you have to be aware that we 
are living in a different time zone, but you don't have to change your 
clocks.  It works beautifully in the fall because if you forget, you 
arrive an hour early to things.  Think of it, you would actually 
arrive at the beginning of FRIAM.   For me, as a person who is always 
late to stuff, it's a great reprieve from embarrassment and humiliation.


Now I am being a bit facetious because I have tried to do it for years 
*/and it does not work/*.  But I am not sure why it doesn't work.  
Evidently the force of social synchrony is so great one would rather 
go to the trouble to clock shift than to listen to Morning Edition 
after eating breakfast, instead of during.


What would your fancy clock do.  I suppose it could say, 
"Good-Morning-Mr.-Densmore-We-regret-to-tell-you-that-your-noon-appointment-has-moved-to-San-Francisco-and-will-be-an-hour-late-for-his-appointment." 
And"The evening news is regrettably delayed an hour this evening.  ETC."


N

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen 
Densmore

*Sent:* Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:50 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Please sign this thing! Eliminate 
the bi-annual time change caused by Daylight Savings Time


I think I confused folks: the reference to europe's DSL change being 2 
weeks after USA was just an example.  Steve Smith: thanks for making 
me recall the north/south difference as well.


I just gotta think we have to

- Change times at the same date universally

- Just stick with standard time

- Build fascinating clocks that Deal With It

But man, my sleep cycle is a bitch to maintain through all this!  Sigh.

   -- Owen




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com