Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[Pieter Steenekamp]

t; — and a precursor to the existentialists.  But Sontag makes me aware and
> cautious that Nietzsche is a more complicated figure than that.  He is full
> of what she calls the fascist aesthetic: “My eagle and my snake”; living on
> “honey, ice-fresh” etc.  Just stuff that seems arbitrary and nonsense if
> you aren’t coming from the ecstatic perspective.  Honey is about as far
> removed from ice as anything I can imagine having in my mouth.  So
> Nietzsche is coming from this complicated, scattered sensibility, as it
> seems in my eyes.  On one hand, his life-affirming philosophy wants to get
> away from much of what I regard as poisonous in platonism and in
> christianity, and profoundly healthy.  On the other hand, those who wanted
> to peg him as an icon of Nazism have material to draw from, and his own
> protestations, that he is not “a good German, but a very good European”
> become complicated to evaluate.
>
> But of course, who would possibly write all that irrelevant digression
> into a mailing-list post….
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
> Leni Riefenstahl? Ugh. Sounds like an example of Godwin's law: as an
> online discussion continues, the probability of a reference or comparison
> to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
>
> Here in Germany there is nearly every week a documentary on TV about the
> time of the Nazis, often at midnight. Hitler's dogs, Hitler's drugs,
> Hitler's home in Austria, etc. For me it feels as if the past is haunting
> us. There might be a psychological aspect behind (collective) spooky
> phenomena :-/
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: David Eric Smith 
> Date: 9/23/21 23:45 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin
>
> So the Monbiot article below is really interesting.
>
> Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t know whether legitimate or in
> violation of some paywall) to an article I mentioned before:
> https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdf
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fcampus.albion.edu%2fgcocks%2ffiles%2f2013%2f08%2fFascinating-Fascism.pdf=E,1,GD2kduWeTsQVaHex1Um8pFzIjkTJGq6FbLdUPmPYq-Ie7n_v8dwyTsarS140673LSz4XngkRXIx3D26xDKrwmYNXxkrCRYTCos402V0ekx_L=1>
> specifically the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called
> “fascist aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected
> my thinking, because many things keep coming back to it and taking an
> orientation from it.  (n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style
> in the great-fun article by Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few
> days ago; I am aware of that at the same time as sending this link because
> I think there is worth in it.)
>
> That the Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other
> contexts) we consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or
> things of that sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not
> what they endorsed, but why they endorsed it.
>
> I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics in a line or two by
> saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground for choosing.  I
> couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as intense as it
> appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but I don’t
> really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it
> seems to be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment.
>  (b.t.w. this is also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that
> some people keep wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James
> and Peirce were of a piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem
> almost poles.)
>
> There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with
> the way scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions.
> Arguing that they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all
> this language is very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use
> a middle-out language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem”
> sense of “puzzle to be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or
> rejected”).  But the back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and
> its big value is that it is more than nothing.  Getting more than nothing
> is rather a rare prize, and something worth working toward and then
> protecting if you can have a little bit.
>
> But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and
> when asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position
> something like “you’ll see when you see”.  It is

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[David Eric Smith]

 wanted to peg him as an icon of Nazism have material to draw from, 
and his own protestations, that he is not “a good German, but a very good 
European” become complicated to evaluate.  

But of course, who would possibly write all that irrelevant digression into a 
mailing-list post….

Eric



> On Sep 24, 2021, at 7:03 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> 
> Leni Riefenstahl? Ugh. Sounds like an example of Godwin's law: as an online 
> discussion continues, the probability of a reference or comparison to Hitler 
> or Nazis approaches 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
> 
> Here in Germany there is nearly every week a documentary on TV about the time 
> of the Nazis, often at midnight. Hitler's dogs, Hitler's drugs, Hitler's home 
> in Austria, etc. For me it feels as if the past is haunting us. There might 
> be a psychological aspect behind (collective) spooky phenomena :-/
> 
> -J.
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: David Eric Smith 
> Date: 9/23/21 23:45 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin
> 
> So the Monbiot article below is really interesting.
> 
> Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t know whether legitimate or in 
> violation of some paywall) to an article I mentioned before:
> https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdf 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fcampus.albion.edu%2fgcocks%2ffiles%2f2013%2f08%2fFascinating-Fascism.pdf=E,1,GD2kduWeTsQVaHex1Um8pFzIjkTJGq6FbLdUPmPYq-Ie7n_v8dwyTsarS140673LSz4XngkRXIx3D26xDKrwmYNXxkrCRYTCos402V0ekx_L=1>
> specifically the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called 
> “fascist aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected my 
> thinking, because many things keep coming back to it and taking an 
> orientation from it.  (n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style in 
> the great-fun article by Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few days 
> ago; I am aware of that at the same time as sending this link because I think 
> there is worth in it.)
> 
> That the Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other 
> contexts) we consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or 
> things of that sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not what 
> they endorsed, but why they endorsed it.
> 
> I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics in a line or two by 
> saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground for choosing.  I 
> couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as intense as it 
> appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but I don’t 
> really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it seems 
> to be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment.  (b.t.w. 
> this is also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that some people 
> keep wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James and Peirce were 
> of a piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem almost poles.)
> 
> There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with the 
> way scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions.  Arguing 
> that they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all this 
> language is very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use a 
> middle-out language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem” sense of 
> “puzzle to be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or rejected”).  
> But the back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and its big value 
> is that it is more than nothing.  Getting more than nothing is rather a rare 
> prize, and something worth working toward and then protecting if you can have 
> a little bit.
> 
> But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and 
> when asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position 
> something like “you’ll see when you see”.  It is distastefully close, in my 
> perception, to those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and you 
> just won’t admit it.  When you stop resisting and admit it, you will come 
> around to where I am, and you will see.”  That doesn’t seem to me like any 
> way to make decisions that differs from what leaves us in our current mess, 
> since people have been doing it forever.  Yet those who are into it now are 
> convinced that this time they hold the true innovation.
> 
> Very hard for me to understand.
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
>> On Sep 24, 2021, at 1:57 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ > <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcomme

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[⛧ glen]

Epic multithread reweave! I can't help but turn the finger on myself as one who 
repeats my position without significant modification, even if I'm not guilty of 
promoting mystic or ecstatic fulcra. I really like the back-trace concept of 
progress. It reminds me of a friend's objection to the typical part-whole 
relation, which proceeds forward from part to whole. His conception is agnostic 
to direction. Partitioning/analysis might come before [re]construction. Wholes 
might be prior to parts. I got this feeling from von Neumann's iterative 
construction, too, just less explicit.

The Sontag article was fantastic. It covered many of the issues I have with 
enjoying the produce of diseased minds like Lovecraft or maybe Kaczynski. But I 
also can't help turning it back onto myself. My glorification of the *muck*, 
the banal, the every day stuff (like Spillers' grounding of culture in 
seemingly mundane things like recipes or hairstyles) both contradicts the 
ecstatic and plays into the prurient notes of the fascist aesthetic. Maybe 
that's the cause of my trypophobia. 8^D

As always, I find myself unable to sufficiently "other" the others. Thanks.


On September 23, 2021 2:22:09 PM PDT, David Eric Smith  
wrote:
>So the Monbiot article below is really interesting.
>
>Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t know whether legitimate or in 
>violation of some paywall) to an article I mentioned before:
>https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdf 
>
>specifically the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called 
>“fascist aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected my 
>thinking, because many things keep coming back to it and taking an orientation 
>from it.  (n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style in the great-fun 
>article by Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few days ago; I am aware of 
>that at the same time as sending this link because I think there is worth in 
>it.)
>
>That the Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other 
>contexts) we consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or 
>things of that sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not what 
>they endorsed, but why they endorsed it.
>
>I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics in a line or two by 
>saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground for choosing.  I 
>couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as intense as it 
>appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but I don’t 
>really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it seems 
>to be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment.  (b.t.w. 
>this is also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that some people 
>keep wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James and Peirce were 
>of a piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem almost poles.)
>
>There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with the 
>way scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions.  Arguing 
>that they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all this 
>language is very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use a 
>middle-out language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem” sense of 
>“puzzle to be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or rejected”).  But 
>the back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and its big value is 
>that it is more than nothing.  Getting more than nothing is rather a rare 
>prize, and something worth working toward and then protecting if you can have 
>a little bit.
>
>But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and when 
>asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position something like 
>“you’ll see when you see”.  It is distastefully close, in my perception, to 
>those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and you just won’t 
>admit it.  When you stop resisting and admit it, you will come around to where 
>I am, and you will see.”  That doesn’t seem to me like any way to make 
>decisions that differs from what leaves us in our current mess, since people 
>have been doing it forever.  Yet those who are into it now are convinced that 
>this time they hold the true innovation.
>
>Very hard for me to understand.
>
>Eric
>
>
>> On Sep 24, 2021, at 1:57 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
>> 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcommentisfree%2f2021%2fsep%2f22%2fleftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power=E,1,YQWY-Qx-D6GAp4uFSbw9DpsNm0UPherqjbJBTzVjSG_of5c03uW3M1Peo6dUo_IiTgPC8e0gxQA9PhkeNnQbLgsUGzPtJnH2zqUVd0qr3S7PDBI,=1
>> 
>> "The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, 
>> has begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive us 
>> of autonomy."
>> 
-- 
glen ⛧

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[David Eric Smith]

So the Monbiot article below is really interesting.

Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t know whether legitimate or in 
violation of some paywall) to an article I mentioned before:
https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdf 

specifically the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called 
“fascist aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected my 
thinking, because many things keep coming back to it and taking an orientation 
from it.  (n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style in the great-fun 
article by Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few days ago; I am aware of 
that at the same time as sending this link because I think there is worth in 
it.)

That the Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other 
contexts) we consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or 
things of that sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not what 
they endorsed, but why they endorsed it.

I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics in a line or two by 
saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground for choosing.  I 
couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as intense as it 
appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but I don’t 
really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it seems to 
be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment.  (b.t.w. this is 
also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that some people keep 
wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James and Peirce were of a 
piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem almost poles.)

There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with the way 
scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions.  Arguing that 
they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all this language is 
very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use a middle-out 
language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem” sense of “puzzle to 
be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or rejected”).  But the 
back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and its big value is that it 
is more than nothing.  Getting more than nothing is rather a rare prize, and 
something worth working toward and then protecting if you can have a little bit.

But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and when 
asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position something like 
“you’ll see when you see”.  It is distastefully close, in my perception, to 
those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and you just won’t admit 
it.  When you stop resisting and admit it, you will come around to where I am, 
and you will see.”  That doesn’t seem to me like any way to make decisions that 
differs from what leaves us in our current mess, since people have been doing 
it forever.  Yet those who are into it now are convinced that this time they 
hold the true innovation.

Very hard for me to understand.

Eric


> On Sep 24, 2021, at 1:57 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcommentisfree%2f2021%2fsep%2f22%2fleftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power=E,1,YQWY-Qx-D6GAp4uFSbw9DpsNm0UPherqjbJBTzVjSG_of5c03uW3M1Peo6dUo_IiTgPC8e0gxQA9PhkeNnQbLgsUGzPtJnH2zqUVd0qr3S7PDBI,=1
> 
> "The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, has 
> begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive us of 
> autonomy."
> 
> On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.
>> 
>> It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are 
>> their interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh not, 
>> modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but 
>> ultimately I claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my 
>> health to somebody else.
>> 
>> For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much power 
>> do drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 
>>  on Youtube, going into details 
>> of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies.
>> 
> 
> -- 
> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[Marcus Daniels]

Eric writes:

< But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and 
when asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position something 
like “you’ll see when you see”.  It is distastefully close, in my perception, 
to those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and you just won’t 
admit it.  When you stop resisting and admit it, you will come around to where 
I am, and you will see.”  That doesn’t seem to me like any way to make 
decisions that differs from what leaves us in our current mess, since people 
have been doing it forever.  Yet those who are into it now are convinced that 
this time they hold the true innovation. >

Consider optimization within a NK fitness landscape where K = N - 1.
One could map out all the peaks and valleys with excruciating care, or just 
randomly try points in the space.   Probably you’d do about as well with the 
latter.  The person that stumbles upon a high fitness point will have a 
dominion!  Awesome!  Play the lottery, win big.   We have songs to sing in my 
dominion.  If you don’t like them, play the lottery some more.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[Jochen Fromm]

Leni Riefenstahl? Ugh. Sounds like an example of Godwin's law: as an online 
discussion continues, the probability of a reference or comparison to Hitler or 
Nazis approaches 1.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_lawHere in Germany 
there is nearly every week a documentary on TV about the time of the Nazis, 
often at midnight. Hitler's dogs, Hitler's drugs, Hitler's home in Austria, 
etc. For me it feels as if the past is haunting us. There might be a 
psychological aspect behind (collective) spooky phenomena :-/-J.
 Original message From: David Eric Smith  
Date: 9/23/21  23:45  (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity 
Coffee Group  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin So the Monbiot 
article below is really interesting.Let me put in the link to a pdf (I don’t 
know whether legitimate or in violation of some paywall) to an article I 
mentioned 
before:https://campus.albion.edu/gcocks/files/2013/08/Fascinating-Fascism.pdfspecifically
 the first section on Leni Riefenstahl and what Sontag called “fascist 
aesthetics”, a term that appears to have quite strongly affected my thinking, 
because many things keep coming back to it and taking an orientation from it.  
(n.b. the criticism of Sontag’s philosophical style in the great-fun article by 
Justin E.H. Smith that Glen forwarded a few days ago; I am aware of that at the 
same time as sending this link because I think there is worth in it.)That the 
Nazis should have advocated many things that (raised in other contexts) we 
consider good choices, like non-destructive land management or things of that 
sort, the Sontag article brings me to the question of not what they endorsed, 
but why they endorsed it.I would quasi-summarize her idea of fascist aesthetics 
in a line or two by saying that it wants ecstatic experience to be the ground 
for choosing.  I couldn’t tell you why my dislike for this orientation is as 
intense as it appears to be — I”m sure it reflects something wrong with me, but 
I don’t really care, reflecting something else wrong with me I’m sure — but it 
seems to be commanding decision-making in a lot of areas at the moment.  
(b.t.w. this is also why I can’t summon the delight in William James that some 
people keep wanting me to experience, people who seem to think James and Peirce 
were of a piece on what Pragmatism is, where to me they seem almost 
poles.)There seem to be communities that are now dismayed, or just bored, with 
the way scientific argument gives you a back-trace to its conclusions.  Arguing 
that they follow from “first principles” is I think an error: all this language 
is very much middle-out, and figuring out how to properly use a middle-out 
language is a profound and interesting problem (“problem” sense of “puzzle to 
be worked on”, not sense of “thing to be denied or rejected”).  But the 
back-trace connects some choices to other choices, and its big value is that it 
is more than nothing.  Getting more than nothing is rather a rare prize, and 
something worth working toward and then protecting if you can have a little 
bit.But those bored with it, who seem to endlessly repeat their position, and 
when asked to clarify, will repeat it again, seem to have a position something 
like “you’ll see when you see”.  It is distastefully close, in my perception, 
to those who will say “you really are a spiritual person, and you just won’t 
admit it.  When you stop resisting and admit it, you will come around to where 
I am, and you will see.”  That doesn’t seem to me like any way to make 
decisions that differs from what leaves us in our current mess, since people 
have been doing it forever.  Yet those who are into it now are convinced that 
this time they hold the true innovation.Very hard for me to understand.EricOn 
Sep 24, 2021, at 1:57 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  
wrote:https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fcommentisfree%2f2021%2fsep%2f22%2fleftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power=E,1,YQWY-Qx-D6GAp4uFSbw9DpsNm0UPherqjbJBTzVjSG_of5c03uW3M1Peo6dUo_IiTgPC8e0gxQA9PhkeNnQbLgsUGzPtJnH2zqUVd0qr3S7PDBI,=1"The
 notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, has begun 
to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive us of 
autonomy."On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:Well, I for one am always 
very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.It's not that I'm against modern 
medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are their interests always aligned 100% with 
mine as a patient? Me thinketh not, modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the 
doctor for advice, but ultimately I claim responsibility for my own body; I 
don't abdicate my health to somebody else.For example, I just listened to a 
documentary "Big Pharma - How much power do drug companies have? 
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8> on Youtube, going into details of 
the greed of

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Yep, I agree. I focus on the phrase "respect for OTHER people". And the 
sentence from the previous paragraph: "Bodily and spiritual sovereignty are 
illusions."


On 9/23/21 11:13 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> I specifically like the concluding paragraph in your Guardian's reference:
> "Enlightenment of any kind is possible only through long and determined 
> engagement with other people’s findings and other people’s ideas. 
> Self-realisation requires constant self-questioning. True freedom emerges 
> from respect for other people."
> 
> It reminds me of Donald Hoffman's case against reality. One person's science 
> is another person's delusion.
> 
> Pieter
> 
> On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 19:00, uǝlƃ ☤>$  > wrote:
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power
>  
> 
> 
> "The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, 
> has begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive us 
> of autonomy."
> 
> On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> > Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.
> >
> > It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are 
> their interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh not, 
> modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but ultimately 
> I claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my health to 
> somebody else.
> >
> > For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much 
> power do drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 
>  
>  > on Youtube, going into details 
> of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies.
> >

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[Pieter Steenekamp]

I specifically like the concluding paragraph in your Guardian's reference:
"Enlightenment of any kind is possible only through long and determined
engagement with other people’s findings and other people’s ideas.
Self-realisation requires constant self-questioning. True freedom emerges
from respect for other people."

It reminds me of Donald Hoffman's case against reality. One person's
science is another person's delusion.

Pieter

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 19:00, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power
>
> "The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination,
> has begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive
> us of autonomy."
>
> On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> > Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.
> >
> > It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are
> their interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh
> not, modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but
> ultimately I claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my
> health to somebody else.
> >
> > For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much
> power do drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8
>  on Youtube, going into
> details of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies.
> >
>
> --
> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power

"The notion of the 'sovereign body', untainted by chemical contamination, has 
begun to fuse with the fear that a shadowy cabal is trying to deprive us of 
autonomy."

On 9/23/21 5:24 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.
> 
> It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are their 
> interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh not, modern 
> medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but ultimately I 
> claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my health to somebody 
> else.
> 
> For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much power do 
> drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 
>  on Youtube, going into details 
> of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies.
> 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Well, I for one am always very suspicious of what my doctor tells me.

It's not that I'm against modern medicine, IMO they do wonders, but are
their interests always aligned 100% with mine as a patient? Me thinketh
not, modern medicine is money-driven.I go to the doctor for advice, but
ultimately I claim responsibility for my own body; I don't abdicate my
health to somebody else.

For example, I just listened to a documentary "Big Pharma - How much power
do drug companies have? "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z_W3yRA9I8 on
Youtube, going into details of the greed of the pharmaceutical companies.

Pieter

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 00:13,  wrote:

> I once polled the folks around the table about non-medical approved cures
> we were taking.   Everybody was doing at least one thing that their doctor
> wasn’t particularly keen on.
>
>
>
> We are all fools in SOME context.  Some in more contexts than others.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 22, 2021 5:49 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> Friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] ivermectin
>
>
>
> via hackernews
>
>
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-y
>
>
>
> Two studies showing positive results treating Covid-19 with Ivermectin are
> both junk, the numbers reported not being consistent with the experiments
> claimed, one has been withdrawn, the authors of the other are not
> responding to requests for clarification.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin

[thompnickson2]

I once polled the folks around the table about non-medical approved cures we 
were taking.   Everybody was doing at least one thing that their doctor wasn’t 
particularly keen on. 

 

We are all fools in SOME context.  Some in more contexts than others. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 5:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] ivermectin

 

via hackernews 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-y

 

Two studies showing positive results treating Covid-19 with Ivermectin are both 
junk, the numbers reported not being consistent with the experiments claimed, 
one has been withdrawn, the authors of the other are not responding to requests 
for clarification.  

 

-- rec --

 

 


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[FRIAM] ivermectin

[Roger Critchlow]

via hackernews

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01535-y

Two studies showing positive results treating Covid-19 with Ivermectin are
both junk, the numbers reported not being consistent with the experiments
claimed, one has been withdrawn, the authors of the other are not
responding to requests for clarification.

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Roger Critchlow]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/21/mississippi-ivermectin-covid-surge-livestock/

State Epidemiologist Paul Byers warned that “at least 70 percent of the
> recent calls” to poison



> control have been related to the ingestion of ivermectin “purchased at
> livestock supply centers.”


-- rec --


On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 8:28 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Eric -
>
> I understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing
> (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) \
>
> Not antiviral, Steve.  Plasmodium isn’t even a bacterium; it is a
> protozoan.  One of us, gooble gobble.
>
> yes to protozoan, I shortcut a bit too much...   I was mostly referencing
> the anecdotal experience of a friend who did 2 years in Africa in the 90s
> as a Peace Corps volunteer.   He contracted Malaria and was prescribed a
> series of rounds of Hydroxychloroquine as the remedy (against the protozoa
> responsible).   The doses he was given were so strong as to have many
> (short term) negative side-effects especially heaped on top of his malaria
> symptoms.  I think he even had a couple of heavy rounds a year or more
> after returning to knock down flare-ups.
>
> According to him, Hydroxycholoroquine was (among Americans/Europeans in
> Africa in his circle) treated as a broad-spectrum preventative/cure to
> *many things* including many viruses.   It isn't clear that was good
> medicine or by some measure more a placebo with limited long-term
> side-effects they can throw an anything with limited negative
> consequences?   I can't imagine what it feels like to be a 3rd world MD
> trying to raise public health against terrible odds while also dealing with
> first-world do-gooders (or badders like arms and diamond dealers) who have
> (relatively) minor problems given their overall state of health and access
> to prime health care before and after living there.  Maybe throwing
> synthetic Quinine at first-worlders was an easy thing to do to get them out
> of the office?
>
> The kind of conflation I offered up could easily feed/explain those who
> have (or still are) pushed synthetic Quinine as a remedy for Covid-19.  My
> bad.  My daughter ( a virologist studying Flavis) would not be pleased.
> She is also rabidly ant-anti-vaxx and anti-anti-science, though she is
> having a crisis of trust with medical science (as a system, not a science).
>
> As you point out, the mechanism seems to involve raising the pH enough to
> interfere with reproduction of the protozoan or some viruses, and it is too
> easy to conflate en-vivo with en-vitro contexts.  Like Trump's idea of
> injecting bleach (or whatever he *actually* said that was easily refactored
> into something that bluntly brain-dead).
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7128816/
>
> I was surprised to discover that 2 liters of Tonic Water is assumed to be
> an equivalent dose to the prescribed standard dose of Quinine in pill
> form.  I have to admit to a significant fondness for Gin and Tonic, but I
> don't know that I could maintain that level of consumption for more than a
> day or two.  One liter sounds a lot more reasonable.   At my preferred 1/3
> gin, 1/3 Tonic, 1/3 ice that leads to a mere 3-4 jiggers of gin a day?
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> Don’t mean to be a pedant.  But to the extent that we think things work
> for reasons, major domain distinctions are likely affect what we think
> deserves time to follow up.
>
> I have a colleague who gave a talk at SFI once (on metastasis in cancers),
> in which as a supporting tangent to an argument about difficulty, he
> commented that he had had fungal toenail infection since teenage, when as
> an athlete he had developed it from locker room showers in England, and in
> the subsequent decades been unable to get rid of it.  His next sentence:
> “And that’s a different _kingdom_!”  But the least different from us you
> can get without going to the animals, and that was enough to drastically
> lower the interventions available for it.  His point: imagine how much
> harder it is to get rid of a cancer cell line that is your own personal
> genome, mostly.  (Be your own, personal, genome.)
>
> Also, on Nick’s question about parasites.  I haven’t read the studies
> showing antiviral activity of ivermectin in vitro (I am not as good a
> person as REC, by a lot, but we knew that), but from what I have read, I
> gather that they drowned the virus in ivermectin, presumably in whatever
> cell culture they were growing it in.  But I would be amazed if any of
> those studies deliberately included cell parasites in the medium, so that
> ivermectin’s knocking them out would affect the ability of some unrelated
> virus to replicate in cells that perhaps that parasite doesn’t even touch.
>
> Again, of course, in the world where, as Masha Gessen says of the cynical
> society under autocracies, “Anything is possible and nothing is true”, the
> fact that ivermectin is claimed to be antiviral at drowning 

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[David Eric Smith]

> On Aug 16, 2021, at 3:08 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> I understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing 
> (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) \
> 
Not antiviral, Steve.  Plasmodium isn’t even a bacterium; it is a protozoan.  
One of us, gooble gobble.  

Don’t mean to be a pedant.  But to the extent that we think things work for 
reasons, major domain distinctions are likely affect what we think deserves 
time to follow up.

I have a colleague who gave a talk at SFI once (on metastasis in cancers), in 
which as a supporting tangent to an argument about difficulty, he commented 
that he had had fungal toenail infection since teenage, when as an athlete he 
had developed it from locker room showers in England, and in the subsequent 
decades been unable to get rid of it.  His next sentence: “And that’s a 
different _kingdom_!”  But the least different from us you can get without 
going to the animals, and that was enough to drastically lower the 
interventions available for it.  His point: imagine how much harder it is to 
get rid of a cancer cell line that is your own personal genome, mostly.  (Be 
your own, personal, genome.)

Also, on Nick’s question about parasites.  I haven’t read the studies showing 
antiviral activity of ivermectin in vitro (I am not as good a person as REC, by 
a lot, but we knew that), but from what I have read, I gather that they drowned 
the virus in ivermectin, presumably in whatever cell culture they were growing 
it in.  But I would be amazed if any of those studies deliberately included 
cell parasites in the medium, so that ivermectin’s knocking them out would 
affect the ability of some unrelated virus to replicate in cells that perhaps 
that parasite doesn’t even touch.

Again, of course, in the world where, as Masha Gessen says of the cynical 
society under autocracies, “Anything is possible and nothing is true”, the fact 
that ivermectin is claimed to be antiviral at drowning doses in vitro with no 
parasites, and then by coincidence the same drug is claimed to be antiviral at 
doses many orders of magnitude smaller in people in countries where you have a 
lot less ability to referee study methods if you don’t live there, but where 
there could be different parasites, makes this connection completely comme il 
faut  

We know that at some sufficiently strong concentration, ethanol, and I assume 
either vinegar or baking-soda solution, will also be antiviral against almost 
anything.  (Whether vinegar or baking soda will depend on whether capsule 
denaturation is acid-catalyzed or base-catalyzed, but probably it will be one 
or the other.)  But of course, we know why you can’t get to those 
concentrations in a live animal.  That just isn’t interesting, because there 
isn’t anything singular about it.  The obscure drugs are singular, particularly 
if they are “anti parasitical”, given the above comment about how delicate a 
matter it can be to clear something that is phylogenetically not so far from 
you.

Btw, the use of “parasite” in pharmacology again makes the hair on the back of 
my neck stand up.  What _kind_ of parasite?  Protists and predatory lenders?  
Bacteria and fungi?  Tapeworms?  I feel like, for any of these drugs that do 
actually have some efficacy, there is probably a more specific word for what 
they cover that could be used, and would aid in guessing-games about their 
likely off-label scope.  When efficacy is real, and against classes of things 
that really don’t have much in common, that becomes even more interesting.  

Eric



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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Steve Smith]

Eric -
>>
>> I understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in
>> developing (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular
>> Malaria) \
>>
> Not antiviral, Steve.  Plasmodium isn’t even a bacterium; it is a
> protozoan.  One of us, gooble gobble.

yes to protozoan, I shortcut a bit too much...   I was mostly
referencing the anecdotal experience of a friend who did 2 years in
Africa in the 90s as a Peace Corps volunteer.   He contracted Malaria
and was prescribed a series of rounds of Hydroxychloroquine as the
remedy (against the protozoa responsible).   The doses he was given were
so strong as to have many (short term) negative side-effects especially
heaped on top of his malaria symptoms.  I think he even had a couple of
heavy rounds a year or more after returning to knock down flare-ups.  

According to him, Hydroxycholoroquine was (among Americans/Europeans in
Africa in his circle) treated as a broad-spectrum preventative/cure to
*many things* including many viruses.   It isn't clear that was good
medicine or by some measure more a placebo with limited long-term
side-effects they can throw an anything with limited negative
consequences?   I can't imagine what it feels like to be a 3rd world MD
trying to raise public health against terrible odds while also dealing
with first-world do-gooders (or badders like arms and diamond dealers)
who have (relatively) minor problems given their overall state of health
and access to prime health care before and after living there.  Maybe
throwing synthetic Quinine at first-worlders was an easy thing to do to
get them out of the office?

The kind of conflation I offered up could easily feed/explain those who
have (or still are) pushed synthetic Quinine as a remedy for Covid-19. 
My bad.  My daughter ( a virologist studying Flavis) would not be
pleased.  She is also rabidly ant-anti-vaxx and anti-anti-science,
though she is having a crisis of trust with medical science (as a
system, not a science).

As you point out, the mechanism seems to involve raising the pH enough
to interfere with reproduction of the protozoan or some viruses, and it
is too easy to conflate en-vivo with en-vitro contexts.  Like Trump's
idea of injecting bleach (or whatever he *actually* said that was easily
refactored into something that bluntly brain-dead).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7128816/

I was surprised to discover that 2 liters of Tonic Water is assumed to
be an equivalent dose to the prescribed standard dose of Quinine in pill
form.  I have to admit to a significant fondness for Gin and Tonic, but
I don't know that I could maintain that level of consumption for more
than a day or two.  One liter sounds a lot more reasonable.   At my
preferred 1/3 gin, 1/3 Tonic, 1/3 ice that leads to a mere 3-4 jiggers
of gin a day?

- Steve

>  
>
> Don’t mean to be a pedant.  But to the extent that we think things
> work for reasons, major domain distinctions are likely affect what we
> think deserves time to follow up.
>
> I have a colleague who gave a talk at SFI once (on metastasis in
> cancers), in which as a supporting tangent to an argument about
> difficulty, he commented that he had had fungal toenail infection
> since teenage, when as an athlete he had developed it from locker room
> showers in England, and in the subsequent decades been unable to get
> rid of it.  His next sentence: “And that’s a different _kingdom_!”
>  But the least different from us you can get without going to the
> animals, and that was enough to drastically lower the interventions
> available for it.  His point: imagine how much harder it is to get rid
> of a cancer cell line that is your own personal genome, mostly.  (Be
> your own, personal, genome.)
>
> Also, on Nick’s question about parasites.  I haven’t read the studies
> showing antiviral activity of ivermectin in vitro (I am not as good a
> person as REC, by a lot, but we knew that), but from what I have read,
> I gather that they drowned the virus in ivermectin, presumably in
> whatever cell culture they were growing it in.  But I would be amazed
> if any of those studies deliberately included cell parasites in the
> medium, so that ivermectin’s knocking them out would affect the
> ability of some unrelated virus to replicate in cells that perhaps
> that parasite doesn’t even touch.
>
> Again, of course, in the world where, as Masha Gessen says of the
> cynical society under autocracies, “Anything is possible and nothing
> is true”, the fact that ivermectin is claimed to be antiviral at
> drowning doses in vitro with no parasites, and then by coincidence the
> same drug is claimed to be antiviral at doses many orders of magnitude
> smaller in people in countries where you have a lot less ability to
> referee study methods if you don’t live there, but where there could
> be different parasites, makes this connection completely comme il faut  
>
> We know that at some sufficiently strong concentration, ethanol, and I
> assume 

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[David Eric Smith]

You know what’s fun in this, is the window it gives on the sources of people’s 
finding things compelling: what G.C. Rota called “the unthematized” in his 
writings on phenomenology (philosopher’s sense, not science usage).

If so many Eastern traditions hadn’t built up such a sense that all this was 
real, and so many decades had not passed with Westerners who didn’t grow up in 
those cultures being convinced that they were “onto something”, the whole Star 
Wars series would have been a complete meh.  People would have seen Yoda wave 
his hand slowly at something and have some things move, and probably responded 
What’s the point?

I have a friend or acquaintance, one Chinese parent (Taiwanese) and one 
Japanese, grew up between the two countries, with also some time spent in the 
US, but not too much formative time.  She grew up completely unstained by 
anything from the Christian tradition.  She tells me that, watching The 
Exorcist, she finds the famous scene in which the girl’s head goes around in a 
circle vaguely comic, but mostly obscure and arbitrary.

As with all things involving consciousness or the vague “sense of reality”, it 
will be hard to get at these things in any systematic way that doesn’t seem 
stilted and bleaching them of whatever makes the frameshift in experience 
interesting.  But would be fun if one could find a way to do it.

Eric


> On Aug 16, 2021, at 2:50 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
> 
> How about Reiki?
>  
> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic 
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>  
> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)
>  
> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy 
> with your dilemma.
>  
> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment in 
> situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating evidence 
> of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the medical staff 
> in that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a placebo with a 
> bogus story behind it can be even better.
>  
> -- rec --
>  
> -- rec --
>  
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow  <mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
> Pieter --
>  
> I looked over the links you listed.  
>  
> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid 
> cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of the 
> spike in Covid cases.Both of these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, 
> since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed 
> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the 
> spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion 
> people would have been quite an achievement for any economy.  
>  
> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fc19ivermectin.com%2f=E,1,XdygX8tCh96bxh9dyZ539zJZiXPXpIizdysWwW-1DbxT-Ova-SbtDFHiGQw0BOo-A6nD6AZMLz4egXL-c_4juKM8uOZa5yX-1Do37vPm25BV70Q,=1>
>  and found the list of ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently 
> claims 110 studies, 68 peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment 
> groups, but it's puffed up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, 
> press releases, meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.
>  
> I looked an early review article, 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf 
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf>, though the pdf is 
> hosted atnature.com <http://nature.com/>, it's from a different journal.
>  
> The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602 
> https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1038%2fs41429-020-0336-z=E,1,86DtBivcmB6jFZMeE6rlaKtevLCwIAONTRPZRtvALOIQ4dFu-rtI2bTqrSZBFqeTa95Gqa8ECOC6VhZCvn69DeJ9wgXZ2cqJ-FpPftae3JBsIw,,=1>
> Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 
> complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza Gharebaghi2,3
> 1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz Jundishapur 
> University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran 
> 2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran 
> 3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA
> Abstract 
> Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases, 
> with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties as a 

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Steve Smith]

t you THINK").   Ed was a very creative artist and had suffered
severe brain damage many years, aggravated by multiple ECT
(electroshock) therapy sessions later to try to renormalize his brain
function, but was also very astute about logical and intellectual
matters even though he also could indulge in a lot of magical/wishful
thinking of his own.  I learned a lot by counter/example from both of them.

This rambly reflection is mostly about the more (possibly) important
issue of how we might collectively imagine a (collective) future for
humanity (and other beings including, for example, an entire viable
biosphere?).  It seems as if one of the features (illusions) of
consciousness is that conscious beings can apprehend the world we live
in and predict futures within it wherein our *actions do matter*. 
Meaning we in some sense get to (have to)  choose the future world we
will inhabit in our own personal futures.   Extreme optimism and
pessimism run somewhat counter to the pretense that "what we do matters"
in a fundamental way.  

- Steve

>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Aug 16, 2021, at 2:50 AM, Marcus Daniels > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> How about Reiki?
>>  
>> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic
>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>>  
>> *From:* Friam > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>  
>> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)
>>  
>> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in
>> sympathy with your dilemma.
>>  
>> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful
>> treatment in situations where no other treatment is available.  And
>> fabricating evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the
>> patients and the medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be
>> better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind it can be
>> even better.
>>  
>> -- rec --
>>  
>> -- rec --
>>  
>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow > <mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Pieter --
>>  
>> I looked over the links you listed.  
>>  
>> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike
>> in Covid cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin
>> caused the end of the spike in Covid cases.    Both of these
>> claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I don't see any
>> evidence that anyone has ever distributed
>> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or
>> after the spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits
>> for 1.366 billion people would have been quite an achievement for
>> any economy.  
>>  
>> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/
>> 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fc19ivermectin.com%2f=E,1,XdygX8tCh96bxh9dyZ539zJZiXPXpIizdysWwW-1DbxT-Ova-SbtDFHiGQw0BOo-A6nD6AZMLz4egXL-c_4juKM8uOZa5yX-1Do37vPm25BV70Q,=1>
>>  and
>> found the list of ivermectin studies.  The list presented
>> currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer reviewed, 64 involving
>> control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with another 50
>> entries which are news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses,
>> reviews, and other miscellanea.
>>  
>> I looked an early review
>> article, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf>, though
>> the pdf is hosted atnature.com <http://nature.com/>, it's from a
>> different journal.
>>  
>>
>> The Journal of Antibiotics (2020)
>> 73:593–602 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z
>> 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1038%2fs41429-020-0336-z=E,1,86DtBivcmB6jFZMeE6rlaKtevLCwIAONTRPZRtvALOIQ4dFu-rtI2bTqrSZBFqeTa95Gqa8ECOC6VhZCvn69DeJ9wgXZ2cqJ-FpPftae3JBsIw,,=1>
>> Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to
>> COVID-19 complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza
>> Gharebaghi2,3
>> 1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz
>> Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran 
>> 2 Kish International Campus, Universi

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[thompnickson2]

“Nick's reference seems to imply it might be useful against parasites. “

Sorry.  I just took that for granted.  I have no idea.  Mine was a very shallow 
dive.   I also took for granted that parasite loads are greater in India than 
they are in the US.  Still, of both those things were true AND it was true that 
covid weakens parasite defense and/or that parasites weaken covid defense, then 
that would explain why ivermectin works in India and not,  say, in England. 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 2:09 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

 

To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as 
dis-ease are manifestations of a more spiritual-social-emotional-psychological 
dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise us that "woo" which addresses (at different 
levels, and different modes) the latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms.  

I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are modulated 
significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc.   The term "Placebo" 
often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think most also accept that 
when it works, it works and one would not want to remove "the placebo effect" 
from someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.

I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of "woo", 
but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long concatenated 
latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very comforting to those whose 
only understanding of "Science" is that it has magical/mystical properties.

This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss anything 
labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle them into doing 
clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into them (like bleach or 
perhaps something with a mercury compound)?   

>From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has never 
>been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference seems to 
>imply it might be useful against parasites.  I understand Hydroxychloroquine 
>to have been used widely in developing (equatorial) countries as an antiviral 
>(in particular Malaria) but with widely varying and harsh side-effects which 
>in those contexts might be well worth the risk.   

I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around  Science and 
Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It is easy do dismiss one and 
embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid, but it feels to me as if 
there is something much deeper and more subtle and perhaps more broadly 
important going on, especially if we are nearing the twilight of the 
Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night of our own making *with* various 
parts Science and Pseudoscience?

 

How about Reiki?

 

Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic 
<https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
 

 

From: Friam  <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>  On 
Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

 

Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)

 

Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy with 
your dilemma.

 

Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment in 
situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating evidence of 
its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the medical staff in 
that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus 
story behind it can be even better.

 

-- rec --

 

-- rec --

 

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow mailto:r...@elf.org> > wrote:

Pieter --

 

I looked over the links you listed.  

 

They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid cases 
in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of the spike in 
Covid cases.Both of these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I 
don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed 
ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the spike 
in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion people would 
have been quite an achievement for any economy.  

 

I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of 
ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer 
reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with 
another 50 entries which are news clippings, press rele

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Frank Wimberly]

More reading

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as
> dis-ease are manifestations of a more
> spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise us
> that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and different modes) the
> latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms.
>
> I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are
> modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc.   The term
> "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think most also
> accept that when it works, it works and one would not want to remove "the
> placebo effect" from someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.
>
> I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of
> "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long
> concatenated latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very
> comforting to those whose only understanding of "Science" is that it has
> magical/mystical properties.
>
> This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss
> anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle
> them into doing clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into them
> (like bleach or perhaps something with a mercury compound)?
>
> From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has never
> been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference seems to
> imply it might be useful against parasites.  I understand
> Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing (equatorial)
> countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) but with widely varying
> and harsh side-effects which in those contexts might be well worth the
> risk.
>
> I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around
> Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It is easy do
> dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid, but
> it feels to me as if there is something much deeper and more subtle and
> perhaps more broadly important going on, especially if we are nearing the
> twilight of the Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night of our own
> making *with* various parts Science and Pseudoscience?
>
>
> How about Reiki?
>
>
>
> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam   *On
> Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>  
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)
>
>
>
> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy
> with your dilemma.
>
>
>
> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment
> in situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating
> evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the
> medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a
> placebo with a bogus story behind it can be even better.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
> Pieter --
>
>
>
> I looked over the links you listed.
>
>
>
> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid
> cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of
> the spike in Covid cases.Both of these claims are sort of hard to
> evaluate, since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed
> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the
> spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion
> people would have been quite an achievement for any economy.
>
>
>
> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of
> ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68
> peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed
> up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases,
> meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.
>
>
>
> I looked an early review article,
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf, though the pdf is
> hosted at nature.com, it's from a different journal.
>
>
>
> The Journal 

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Steve Smith]

To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as
dis-ease are manifestations of a more
spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise
us that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and different modes)
the latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms. 

I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are
modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc.   The
term "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think
most also accept that when it works, it works and one would not want to
remove "the placebo effect" from someone's prevention, recovery or
maintenance regimen.

I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of
"woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long
concatenated latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very
comforting to those whose only understanding of "Science" is that it has
magical/mystical properties.

This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss
anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle
them into doing clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into
them (like bleach or perhaps something with a mercury compound)?  

>From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has
never been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference
seems to imply it might be useful against parasites.  I understand
Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing (equatorial)
countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) but with widely
varying and harsh side-effects which in those contexts might be well
worth the risk.  

I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around 
Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It is easy do
dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid,
but it feels to me as if there is something much deeper and more subtle
and perhaps more broadly important going on, especially if we are
nearing the twilight of the Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night
of our own making *with* various parts Science and Pseudoscience?


> How about Reiki?
>
>  
>
> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>  
>
> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)
>
>  
>
> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in
> sympathy with your dilemma.
>
>  
>
> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful
> treatment in situations where no other treatment is available.  And
> fabricating evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the
> patients and the medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be
> better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind it can be
> even better.
>
>  
>
> -- rec --
>
>  
>
> -- rec --
>
>  
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow  <mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
>
> Pieter --
>
>  
>
> I looked over the links you listed.  
>
>  
>
> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike
> in Covid cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin
> caused the end of the spike in Covid cases.    Both of these
> claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I don't see any
> evidence that anyone has ever distributed
> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or
> after the spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits
> for 1.366 billion people would have been quite an achievement for
> any economy.  
>
>  
>
> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/
> <https://c19ivermectin.com/> and found the list of ivermectin
> studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer
> reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's
> puffed up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press
> releases, meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.
>
>  
>
> I looked an early review
> article, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf>, though
> the pdf is hosted at nature.com <http://nature.com>, it's from a
> different journal.
>
>  
>
> The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602
> https://

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Marcus Daniels]

How about Reiki?

Does Reiki Work? - The 
Atlantic<https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)

Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy with 
your dilemma.

Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment in 
situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating evidence of 
its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the medical staff in 
that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus 
story behind it can be even better.

-- rec --

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow 
mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
Pieter --

I looked over the links you listed.

They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid cases 
in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of the spike in 
Covid cases.Both of these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I 
don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed 
ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the spike 
in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion people would 
have been quite an achievement for any economy.

I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of 
ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer 
reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with 
another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses, 
reviews, and other miscellanea.

I looked an early review article, 
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf, though the pdf is hosted 
at nature.com<http://nature.com>, it's from a different journal.

The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602 
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z
Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 
complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza Gharebaghi2,3
1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz Jundishapur 
University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran
2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran
3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA
Abstract
Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases, with 
its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties as a wonder drug. It 
is highly effective against many microorganisms including some viruses. In this 
comprehensive systematic review, antiviral effects of ivermectin are summarized 
including in vitro and in vivo studies over the past 50 years. Several studies 
reported antiviral effects of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue, 
yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, 
chikungunya, Semliki Forest, Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive 
and Respiratory Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus type 1, and severe acute 
respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies showing 
antiviral effects of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type 
1, BK polyomavirus, pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine herpesvirus 
1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in several biological mechanisms, therefore 
it could serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of 
viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of positive-sense 
single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a broad 
range of antiviral effects of ivermectin, however, clinical trials are 
necessary to appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting

The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral reproduction in vitro, 
but fails to work in vivo, for all of these viruses.  It's been tried against 
every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had some in vitro anti-viral 
activity, but never became an approved treatment for any of them.

It must be that the elites are consipring.  That's the only reasonable 
explanation for the facts.

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>> wrote:
Nick,

Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite it 
with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.

I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,  
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid   
, is most probably correct.
Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there 
are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there 
are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Pieter Steenekamp]

ned up in the last 50 years, had
>>> some *in vitro* anti-viral activity, but never became an approved
>>> treatment for any of them.
>>>
>>> It must be that the elites are consipring.  That's the only reasonable
>>> explanation for the facts.
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
>>> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me
>>>> rewrite it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
>>>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>>>>,
>>>> is most probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>>>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>>>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>>>> do give benefits?
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>>>> (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>>>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>>>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>>>
>>>> References:
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>>>
>>>> Pieter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pieter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter
>>>>> Steenekamp
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>>>>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>>>>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>>>>> do give benefits?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>>>>> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>>>>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone 
>>>>> have
>>>>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>>>>
>>>>> References:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>>>>
>>>>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydro

Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Frank Wimberly]

>>> Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me
>>> rewrite it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.
>>>
>>> I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
>>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>>>,
>>> is most probably correct.
>>>
>>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>>> do give benefits?
>>>
>>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>>> (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>>
>>> References:
>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pieter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nick Thompson
>>>>
>>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter
>>>> Steenekamp
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>>>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>>>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>>>> do give benefits?
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>>>> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>>>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>>>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>>>
>>>> References:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>>>
>>>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>>>
>>>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pieter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>>>>
>>>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Roger Critchlow]

g ivermectin. Does that mean
>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>> do give benefits?
>>
>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>> (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>
>> References:
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>
>>
>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>
>>
>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>
>>
>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>
>>
>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:
>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick Thompson
>>>
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter
>>> Steenekamp
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>>>
>>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>>> do give benefits?
>>>
>>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>>> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>>
>>> References:
>>>
>>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>>
>>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>>
>>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pieter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>>>
>>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>
>>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Roger Critchlow]

-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:
>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter
>> Steenekamp
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>>
>> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
>> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
>> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
>> do give benefits?
>>
>> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
>> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
>> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
>> better information? I'd like to know.
>>
>> References:
>>
>> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>>
>> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>>
>> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>>
>>
>> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>>
>>
>> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>>
>>
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>>
>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>
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>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Excellent prof Thomson!

On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 15:49,  wrote:

> Thanks, Pieter,
>
>
>
> Do parasites make one vulnerable to covid?   Alternatively, does having
> covid, open the door to parasites one is already carrying?  I can’t be the
> first person to think of that.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 2:28 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite
> it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.
>
> I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid  
>  ,
> is most probably correct.
>
> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
> do give benefits?
>
> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
> (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
> better information? I'd like to know.
>
> References:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>
>
>
> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>
>
> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>
>
>
>
> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>
>
>
>
> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>
> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
> do give benefits?
>
> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
> better information? I'd like to know.
>
> References:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>
> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>
> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>
>
> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>
>
> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Pieter,

 

Do parasites make one vulnerable to covid?   Alternatively, does having covid, 
open the door to parasites one is already carrying?  I can’t be the first 
person to think of that. 

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 2:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

 

Nick, 

Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite it 
with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.

I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,  
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid   
, is most probably correct.

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there 
are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there 
are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see 
references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I 
really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better 
information? I'd like to know. 

References:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/


https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf

https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

 

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

 

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

 

Pieter

 

 

 

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Pieter

 

Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

 

I believe this study is most probably correct. 

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there 
are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there 
are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see 
reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I 
really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better 
information? I'd like to know. 

References:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

 

Pieter

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Nick,

Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite
it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.

I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
  ,
is most probably correct.

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
do give benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see
references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
better information? I'd like to know.

References:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf

https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter



On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13,  wrote:

> Pieter
>
>
>
> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>
> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
> do give benefits?
>
> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
> better information? I'd like to know.
>
> References:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>
> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>
> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>
>
> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>
>
> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[thompnickson2]

Pieter

 

Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

 

I believe this study is most probably correct. 

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there 
are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there 
are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see 
reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I 
really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better 
information? I'd like to know. 

References:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

 

Pieter

 

 

 

 





 

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Pieter Steenekamp]

I believe this study is most probably correct.

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
do give benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see
reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
better information? I'd like to know.

References:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter








On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

>
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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[FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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