Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

Pamela:

“But I don’t know if productivity of those 24/7 workers has been measured in a 
sound, qualitative way.”

There is a certain euphoria in momentum even if it means long hours, especially 
if it is a task that is self-directed.  Stopping hurts more than it helps.  
Days, weeks, months can pass if I’m in that zone.  The most draining thing for 
me is getting tasking to do this or that unmotivated or pointless random thing, 
and especially if I know the people handing out the instructions don’t 
particularly know (or care about) what they are doing.   To get such requests 
24/7 would be horrible.   Imagine what kind of monsters could accept such 
guidance from the Donald day in and day out.

Marcus



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Hi, Steve, 

 

In the end, as always, we seem to agree.  

 

I don't think of it as hand-wringing.  Hand wringing is what liberals do.
(};-/)

 

I think of it as nudging.. Uh, noodging?  What IS  that word?  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 8:25 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Nick-



Steve, 

 

For me, there are only two questions I want you to ask yourself: 

 

Is the Trump administration likely to do things that will irrevocably
decrease the quality of life of people you care about?

yes



(How widely you cast that net is your business.)

It is ultimately my business, but the narrower I (or you, or Donald Trump)
casts it, the more likely that our "self" interest is going to lead to small
and unenlightened consequences.   I believe that Marcus coined (or a least
introduced it into this conversation) the idea that a significant property
of our (dis)loyal opposition is that they live in a small world and do many
things to seek to keep it that way.  Misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, are
all acutely specific examples of this.



 

And, 

 

Is there anything we can do to alter that probability in any small degree?

There are myriad things we can do and I think the problem is one of finding
focus and traction.  If I throw MY measly cash at the ACLU but fail to show
up at the processes required to get my local demigog (think Susanna
Martinez) out of office, then I may have made a less than optimal decision.

I *think* your handwringing is merited, we DO have a BIG problem, but *I*
think that doing anything and everything you can think of is a good start
whilst seeking more optimal solutions that don't make us all feel as
helpless and without traction as many of us do?

- Steve



 

That's all I am asking. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Nick -

I know I don't always seem to take your questions seriously, but I generally
do.  

I DO think the computer industry HAS effectively contributed to a certain
kind of isolation.  On the other hand, here we are, most of us able to
participate in a complex discussion, halfway around the world from one
another (or not), many of us unable/unwilling to actually *attend* the
Mother Church as it were (FriAM coffee klatch) because of computer
technology.  But  again on the first hand, we sit around in coffee shops
ignoring one another while chatting with friends or colleagues 7 time zones
away?!

I believe that every form of technological "leverage" follows the metaphor
at least far enough to include the "loss of sensitivity" on the strong-end
of the lever.  Sure, with the right lever, you can heave a 1 ton boulder,
but can you gently tweak the last 12 ounces of force to *gently* move it off
equilibrium?   So I'm not sure HOW to maintain sensitivity in the context of
such high leverage.  The age of Transportation, Communications, etc.
Brought huge societal problems which have either leveled out, or sadly, more
likely, normalized.

As for the barfight, I'll let you know... and just fair warning, if you take
wagers, put your money on *the other guy*, I might be scrappy, but about all
I have going for me any more is mass, the ability to take a beating, and a
willingness to gouge eyes when required.

- Steve

 

On 1/28/17 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve -

 

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that
participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a
fact-based attractor?  

 

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that
barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are
going to, so I can come and watch.  

 

But I think the question is yes. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
To

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

I was thinking of people that, in other `real world’ settings are just checking 
on their smartphone what their friends or aspirational friends are up to on 
Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, and commenting in trivial ways.  Another thing 
I see a lot is lurker Schadenfreude type reading making fun of people they know 
(but don’t care about, I guess) who share their small aspects of their lives or 
repeat obvious things.  (Not sure which is more pathetic.)

Although FRIAM drifts around, it is topical, so I would not define it as only a 
social activity.   Perhaps it would be better to start on the next article in 
Nature, etc. but in truth the simulation or build will only take 5 or 10 
minutes, and I can’t get through a paper that fast.

Marcus

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Is the FRIAM list social media?
Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 29, 2017 10:11 AM, "Marcus Daniels" 
<mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Pamela writes:

“Turkle suggests all kinds of times out from technology—dinner time, before 
bed, that sort of thing.”

There’s conflict that is created between those people that use electronic 
communication non-stop for their work vs. those that don’t want to.   The 
former are essentially working more hours of the day.  All other things being 
equal, they have productivity advantage, especially for project management type 
tasks.

This is different than people who are glued to social media.  That’s just an 
addiction.

I don’t really see what the big deal is about high-volume e-mail.   For me, it 
is far better than the telephone.  Telephone calls often seem to represent an 
expectation from the caller that their disorganized wants are more important 
than my concentration.   E-mails can be tracked much easier than voice-mails.   
They can be composed over many hours if needed as a low-priority part of 
multitasking. The main problem I have with e-mail is not that correspondents 
don’t respond with low latency, it is that they forget to or don’t treat it as 
a serious type of communication.  I usually give up on working closely with 
such people unless they have some exceptional ability or knowledge that I need. 
  Whether people use e-mail concisely, and to a lesser extent, quickly, is a 
pretty good predictor of how good of a coworker they will be.

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Pamela McCorduck]

> On Jan 29, 2017, at 10:11 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
> 
> Pamela writes:
>  
> “Turkle suggests all kinds of times out from technology—dinner time, before 
> bed, that sort of thing.”
>  
> There’s conflict that is created between those people that use electronic 
> communication non-stop for their work vs. those that don’t want to.   The 
> former are essentially working more hours of the day.  All other things being 
> equal, they have productivity advantage, especially for project management 
> type tasks. 

Ah well, I wonder. That “productivity” might be an illusion, the way 
old-fashioned face time was once thought to contribute to the illusion 
(manufactured for the boss) of hard work, though not itself useful. The human 
brain needs rest time. But I don’t know if productivity of those 24/7 workers 
has been measured in a sound, qualitative way. 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Frank Wimberly]

Is the FRIAM list social media?

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 29, 2017 10:11 AM, "Marcus Daniels"  wrote:

> *Pamela writes:*
>
>
>
> *“*Turkle suggests all kinds of times out from technology—dinner time,
> before bed, that sort of thing.”
>
>
>
> There’s conflict that is created between those people that use electronic
> communication non-stop for their work vs. those that don’t want to.   The
> former are essentially working more hours of the day.  All other things
> being equal, they have productivity advantage, especially for project
> management type tasks.
>
>
>
> This is different than people who are glued to social media.  That’s just
> an addiction.
>
>
>
> I don’t really see what the big deal is about high-volume e-mail.   For
> me, it is far better than the telephone.  Telephone calls often seem to
> represent an expectation from the caller that their disorganized wants are
> more important than my concentration.   E-mails can be tracked much easier
> than voice-mails.   They can be composed over many hours if needed as a
> low-priority part of multitasking. The main problem I have with e-mail is
> not that correspondents don’t respond with low latency, it is that they
> forget to or don’t treat it as a serious type of communication.  I usually
> give up on working closely with such people unless they have some
> exceptional ability or knowledge that I need.   Whether people use e-mail
> concisely, and to a lesser extent, quickly, is a pretty good predictor of
> how good of a coworker they will be.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

Pamela writes:

“Turkle suggests all kinds of times out from technology—dinner time, before 
bed, that sort of thing.”

There’s conflict that is created between those people that use electronic 
communication non-stop for their work vs. those that don’t want to.   The 
former are essentially working more hours of the day.  All other things being 
equal, they have productivity advantage, especially for project management type 
tasks.

This is different than people who are glued to social media.  That’s just an 
addiction.

I don’t really see what the big deal is about high-volume e-mail.   For me, it 
is far better than the telephone.  Telephone calls often seem to represent an 
expectation from the caller that their disorganized wants are more important 
than my concentration.   E-mails can be tracked much easier than voice-mails.   
They can be composed over many hours if needed as a low-priority part of 
multitasking. The main problem I have with e-mail is not that correspondents 
don’t respond with low latency, it is that they forget to or don’t treat it as 
a serious type of communication.  I usually give up on working closely with 
such people unless they have some exceptional ability or knowledge that I need. 
  Whether people use e-mail concisely, and to a lesser extent, quickly, is a 
pretty good predictor of how good of a coworker they will be.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Pamela McCorduck]

> On Jan 29, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Nick Thompson  
> wrote:
> 
> So we’re stuck, right, Pamela?  There’s nothing we can do?  Just sit and take 
> it?  
>  
> Nick

Oh no. Partly it’s self-correcting. Sherry Turkle (Reclaiming Conversation, and 
also a new Kindle single interview with Turkle by Paula Span—spend a buck and 
read it; it’s really interesting) reports on children who despise their 
parents’ absorption in a smartphone, and tell Turkle that they will raise their 
own children the way their parents *think* they’re raising their kids, not the 
way they actually are. The French government has declared that workers of all 
kinds must have private time, when they’re not available by electronic 
communication. (That seems to me so French, but hey, whatever works for your 
culture.)

Partly it takes some self-discipline. Turkle suggests all kinds of times out 
from technology—dinner time, before bed, that sort of thing. Partly it’s empty 
emotional calories, and the average person comes away thinking, is that all 
there is? And joins a book group of humans. 

I’m not in despair. 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Nick-


Steve,

For me, there are only two questions I want you to ask yourself:

Is the Trump administration /likely to do/ things that will 
irrevocably decrease the quality of life of people you care about?



yes


(How widely you cast that net is your business.)

It is ultimately my business, but the narrower I (or you, or Donald 
Trump) casts it, the more likely that our "self" interest is going to 
lead to small and unenlightened consequences.   I believe that Marcus 
coined (or a least introduced it into this conversation) the idea that a 
significant property of our (dis)loyal opposition is that they live in a 
small world and do many things to seek to keep it that way.  Misogyny, 
xenophobia, homophobia, are all acutely specific examples of this.


And,

Is there anything we can do to alter that probability in any small degree?

There are myriad things we can do and I think the problem is one of 
finding focus and traction.  If I throw MY measly cash at the ACLU but 
fail to show up at the processes required to get my local demigog (think 
Susanna Martinez) out of office, then I may have made a less than 
optimal decision.


I *think* your handwringing is merited, we DO have a BIG problem, but 
*I* think that doing anything and everything you can think of is a good 
start whilst seeking more optimal solutions that don't make us all feel 
as helpless and without traction as many of us do?


- Steve


That’s all I am asking.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven 
A Smith

*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:50 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com>

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Nick -

I know I don't always seem to take your questions seriously, but I 
generally do.


I DO think the computer industry HAS effectively contributed to a 
certain kind of isolation.  On the other hand, here we are, most of us 
able to participate in a complex discussion, halfway around the world 
from one another (or not), many of us unable/unwilling to actually 
*attend* the Mother Church as it were (FriAM coffee klatch) because of 
computer technology. But  again on the first hand, we sit around in 
coffee shops ignoring one another while chatting with friends or 
colleagues 7 time zones away?!


I believe that every form of technological "leverage" follows the 
metaphor at least far enough to include the "loss of sensitivity" on 
the strong-end of the lever.  Sure, with the right lever, you can 
heave a 1 ton boulder, but can you gently tweak the last 12 ounces of 
force to *gently* move it off equilibrium?   So I'm not sure HOW to 
maintain sensitivity in the context of such high leverage.  The age of 
Transportation, Communications, etc.  Brought huge societal problems 
which have either leveled out, or sadly, more likely, normalized.


As for the barfight, I'll let you know... and just fair warning, if 
you take wagers, put your money on *the other guy*, I might be 
scrappy, but about all I have going for me any more is mass, the 
ability to take a beating, and a willingness to gouge eyes when required.


- Steve

On 1/28/17 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve –

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to
the narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there
anything that participants in the computer industry could do tip
the world back toward a fact-based attractor?

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting
that barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know
which bar you are going to, so I can come and watch.

But I think the question is yes.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of
*Steven A Smith
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once
resembled sharp tools and useful fasteners?

I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less*
a month (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop
commensurately and the cost/value proposition for the pipelines we
all love to hate would (eventually) drop below a certain threshold.

Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more*
thoughtful conve

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Pamela McCorduck]

I see you’re mostly agreeing with me, Steve, especially about the a-historic 
nature of much of the computer world, but as an early member of the WELL (and 
still there in good standing), I can tell you that it wouldn’t have existed 
without the ARPANet decades before it. Who would have stuck out that long 
investment period? I see by my journal entries that I had email in 1974 (we 
didn’t even know what to call it then—we called it receiving a “net message”) 
or another few odd terms.

The invention of the World Wide Web, which suddenly allowed graphics to be 
displayed and switched as easily as text, was the invention of one man, Tim 
Berners Lee, when he was employed by a multi-governmental organization called 
CERN. 

So, many of the boys in Silicon Valley are like the rooster who believes he’s 
waking the sun with his morning call.


> On Jan 28, 2017, at 10:03 PM, Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:
> 
> Pamela -
> 
> Not to be (overly) ornery, but I *do* think that *an* Internet (global 
> digital communications network) was inevitable without Gov't investment 
> directly in *the Internet*...  There were a plethora of online communities 
> managed roughly as bulletin board services, the Whole Earth 'Lectronic LInk 
> (WELL)being one of the more notable ones at the time.  Some had begun to 
> cross link... a sea of "star" networks beginning to link up.  The academic 
> (mostly) Unix-to-Unix (UUNET) network was another self-organizing, 
> multi-scale network which could have blossomed more on it's own had it not 
> been subsumed into "Al Gore's Internet".   ARPA and NSF nets (as I remember 
> it anecdotally) provided a lot of the more robust backboning, one end of the 
> power-law distribution of services which DID accelerate full connectivity and 
> high performance to a broader audience.
> But I *do* think your point about (many) Libertarians and others *taking* 
> from the commons without acknowledging their debt to it in word OR deed, is 
> well taken.   I don't know if anyone has developed answers for "the Tragedy 
> of the Commons", but it seems like a pattern to inspect and address in any 
> case.   
> I also agree that the SHAPE of our computer technology may REFLECT our 
> narcissism as much as DRIVE it.  As much as I love and respect the political 
> and social progress of the 60's, there came a second wave of Narcissism on 
> top of that which started (I think) with the boom of post WWII industry and a 
> consumer economy.   It took 50+ years to reach the untenable state we are in 
> today.
> 
> - Steve
> 
> On 1/28/17 4:53 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
>> Before we blame any particular technology for what seems like an epidemic of 
>> narcissism, we ought to remember that the 80s—or was it the 70s?—were widely 
>> known as the Me Decade. Either way, long before social media.
>> 
>> I’m always deeply amused by the libertarians who tell us how wicked 
>> government interference is at exactly the time they’re making their plush 
>> livings off a technology that wouldn’t have existed without decades (the 
>> fifties, the sixties, the seventies) of government investment. Would the 
>> Internet have happened anyway? Hard to imagine private investors sitting 
>> still for an investment that wouldn’t pay off for almost half a century.
>> 
>> So, drifting afar from a reality base isn’t unknown in Silly Valley.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
>>> <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Steve –
>>>  
>>> Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the 
>>> narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that 
>>> participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a 
>>> fact-based attractor?  
>>>  
>>> If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that 
>>> barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are 
>>> going to, so I can come and watch.  
>>>  
>>> But I think the question is yes. 
>>>  
>>> Nick 
>>>  
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>> Clark University
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
>>> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>>>  
>>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity 

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Yes.  My little bit of money went to the ACLU.  But asking for money is all 
they do, and I feel the need for something more.  We may need to become grunts 
ourselves, rather than paying for mercenaries.   But until something better 
comes along, the ACLU seems the right thing. 

 

Yes, we have to find a way to make narcissism hurt and make facts seem like 
beautiful things again.  It seems to me something could be done in the social 
media domain, but I haven’t thought of what that might be.  “Here are some 
viewpoints you might disagree with.”  “We note that Joe Blow has expressed 
believes opposite to yours, would you like to talk to Joe?”  

 

I think your suggestion about churches is a very interesting one.  AS the 
months wear on, I can imagine an ecumenical response to Trump.  

 

Here in Santa Fe, I think we need to be ready to make those who want to violate 
our “sanctuary city” status, to pay a price, perhaps to stand between ice 
officials and perspective departees, to surround and demonstrate at local ICE 
offices.  Anything to make it inconvenient.  

 

Yes.  Pay a price.  I like it. 

 

Nick   

 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

< So, the question is , “Should we do what we can do, no matter how lame or 
ineffectual it might seem?”  Or, should we pull back, “move to Spain’, and 
leave it to others, “the politicians”, to lower themselves to do what needs to 
be done.  >

 

Andrés asserts it is not populism by another means.  It seems to me to be that. 
 I am not advocating leaving the country.  I am questioning him based on the 
fact he did leave just how sincere is he about living with his fellow man.   It 
sounds to me like he may have, or at least want to present, a romantic view of 
his Venezuelan homeland, and that it is easier to maintain from a safe distance 
in Europe.  That said, I don’t judge him for leaving nor U.S. citizens for 
leaving.  

 

I don’t think this is solved by creating solidarity with witting vandals of 
this country.  That is BS.  This is solved by showing that BS doesn’t work.   
To me, that means create a cost for the vandals.   Polarize sufficiently to 
create a clear political identity and purpose – identify the enemy and identify 
the cause.   To you, it may mean counsel the vandals and lead them to 
contrition.  Or it could mean to incentivize them to do other things than 
vandalism.  

 

“When they came for the immigrants, I didn’t do anything because I was not an 
immigrant”  etc. 

 

If there is a better organization to support than the ACLU for litigating these 
insane executive orders, please let me know.

 

Another idea is to map out the Trump-friendly churches and reach them through 
soft techniques.  For example, if church A is more conservative to church B, 
but they are similar, a political action organization could financially support 
people (e.g. pastors) at church B to give talks to congregation A that are 
fact-based and show the reality of Trump’s policies on children or other 
sympathetic victims.   Pastors at small churches are not paid very well, so 
having a travel budget and training opportunities could help them 
professionally.

 

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

So we’re stuck, right, Pamela?  There’s nothing we can do?  Just sit and take 
it?  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 4:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Before we blame any particular technology for what seems like an epidemic of 
narcissism, we ought to remember that the 80s—or was it the 70s?—were widely 
known as the Me Decade. Either way, long before social media.

 

I’m always deeply amused by the libertarians who tell us how wicked government 
interference is at exactly the time they’re making their plush livings off a 
technology that wouldn’t have existed without decades (the fifties, the 
sixties, the seventies) of government investment. Would the Internet have 
happened anyway? Hard to imagine private investors sitting still for an 
investment that wouldn’t pay off for almost half a century.

 

So, drifting afar from a reality base isn’t unknown in Silly Valley.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote:

 

Steve –

 

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the 
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that 
participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a 
fact-based attractor?  

 

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that 
barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are 
going to, so I can come and watch.  

 

But I think the question is yes. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [ <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once resembled sharp 
tools and useful fasteners?   

I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a month (and 
everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and the cost/value 
proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would (eventually) drop below 
a certain threshold.  

Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  we might 
reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something more human 
(maybe still a form of populism, but not 
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).

If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to hurt *our* 
personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or in some twisted or 
strange way help) the larger context and then only consider how our personal 
context would be effected in turn by the larger context (is a happier, 
healthier, more informed society good or bad for you and your family?  vs can I 
pay lower taxes, get more government services and be afforded less expensive 
access to other resources nominally part of the commons?)  

et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own advice 
and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,
 - Steve




Ok Steve, 

 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my 
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new products 
“I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.  

 

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [ <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 







What can WE hobbits do? 

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist in 
Chief is at least p

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Steve, 

 

For me, there are only two questions I want you to ask yourself: 

 

Is the Trump administration likely to do things that will irrevocably
decrease the quality of life of people you care about? (How widely you cast
that net is your business.)

 

And, 

 

Is there anything we can do to alter that probability in any small degree?

 

That's all I am asking. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Nick -

I know I don't always seem to take your questions seriously, but I generally
do.  

I DO think the computer industry HAS effectively contributed to a certain
kind of isolation.  On the other hand, here we are, most of us able to
participate in a complex discussion, halfway around the world from one
another (or not), many of us unable/unwilling to actually *attend* the
Mother Church as it were (FriAM coffee klatch) because of computer
technology.  But  again on the first hand, we sit around in coffee shops
ignoring one another while chatting with friends or colleagues 7 time zones
away?!

I believe that every form of technological "leverage" follows the metaphor
at least far enough to include the "loss of sensitivity" on the strong-end
of the lever.  Sure, with the right lever, you can heave a 1 ton boulder,
but can you gently tweak the last 12 ounces of force to *gently* move it off
equilibrium?   So I'm not sure HOW to maintain sensitivity in the context of
such high leverage.  The age of Transportation, Communications, etc.
Brought huge societal problems which have either leveled out, or sadly, more
likely, normalized.

As for the barfight, I'll let you know... and just fair warning, if you take
wagers, put your money on *the other guy*, I might be scrappy, but about all
I have going for me any more is mass, the ability to take a beating, and a
willingness to gouge eyes when required.

- Steve

 

On 1/28/17 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve -

 

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that
participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a
fact-based attractor?  

 

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that
barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are
going to, so I can come and watch.  

 

But I think the question is yes. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once resembled
sharp tools and useful fasteners?   

I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a month
(and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and the
cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would
(eventually) drop below a certain threshold.  

Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  we
might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something more
human (maybe still a form of populism, but not
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).

If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to hurt
*our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or in some
twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then only consider how
our personal context would be effected in turn by the larger context (is a
happier, healthier, more informed society good or bad for you and your
family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get more government services and be
afforded less expensive access to other resources nominally part of the
commons?)  

et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own
advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,
 - Steve




Ok Steve, 

 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new
products "I-this" and "

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Pamela -

Not to be (overly) ornery, but I *do* think that *an* Internet (global 
digital communications network) was inevitable without Gov't investment 
directly in *the Internet*...  There were a plethora of online 
communities managed roughly as bulletin board services, the Whole Earth 
'Lectronic LInk (WELL)being one of the more notable ones at the time.  
Some had begun to cross link... a sea of "star" networks beginning to 
link up.  The academic (mostly) Unix-to-Unix (UUNET) network was another 
self-organizing, multi-scale network which could have blossomed more on 
it's own had it not been subsumed into "Al Gore's Internet".   ARPA and 
NSF nets (as I remember it anecdotally) provided a lot of the more 
robust backboning, one end of the power-law distribution of services 
which DID accelerate full connectivity and high performance to a broader 
audience.


But I *do* think your point about (many) Libertarians and others 
*taking* from the commons without acknowledging their debt to it in word 
OR deed, is well taken.   I don't know if anyone has developed answers 
for "the Tragedy of the Commons", but it seems like a pattern to inspect 
and address in any case.


I also agree that the SHAPE of our computer technology may REFLECT our 
narcissism as much as DRIVE it.  As much as I love and respect the 
political and social progress of the 60's, there came a second wave of 
Narcissism on top of that which started (I think) with the boom of post 
WWII industry and a consumer economy.   It took 50+ years to reach the 
untenable state we are in today.


- Steve


On 1/28/17 4:53 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
Before we blame any particular technology for what seems like an 
epidemic of narcissism, we ought to remember that the 80s—or was it 
the 70s?—were widely known as the Me Decade. Either way, long before 
social media.


I’m always deeply amused by the libertarians who tell us how wicked 
government interference is at exactly the time they’re making their 
plush livings off a technology that wouldn’t have existed without 
decades (the fifties, the sixties, the seventies) of government 
investment. Would the Internet have happened anyway? Hard to imagine 
private investors sitting still for an investment that wouldn’t pay 
off for almost half a century.


So, drifting afar from a reality base isn’t unknown in Silly Valley.


On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson 
<nickthomp...@earthlink.net <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:


Steve –
Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to 
the narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there 
anything that participants in the computer industry could do tip the 
world back toward a fact-based attractor?
If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting 
that barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which 
bar you are going to, so I can come and watch.

But I think the question is yes.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]*On Behalf Of*Steven A 
Smith

*Sent:*Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
*To:*The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>

*Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
Toolkit? This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once 
resembled sharp tools and useful fasteners?


I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a 
month (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately 
and the cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate 
would (eventually) drop below a certain threshold.


Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  
we might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with 
something more human (maybe still a form of populism, but not 
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).


If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to 
hurt *our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt 
(or in some twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then 
only consider how our personal context would be effected in turn by 
the larger context (is a happier, healthier, more informed society 
good or bad for you and your family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get 
more government services and be afforded less expensive access to 
other resources nominally part of the commons?)


et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my 
own advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,

 - Steve


Ok Steve,
The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.
I have been able to think o

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Nick -

I know I don't always seem to take your questions seriously, but I 
generally do.


I DO think the computer industry HAS effectively contributed to a 
certain kind of isolation.  On the other hand, here we are, most of us 
able to participate in a complex discussion, halfway around the world 
from one another (or not), many of us unable/unwilling to actually 
*attend* the Mother Church as it were (FriAM coffee klatch) because of 
computer technology.  But  again on the first hand, we sit around in 
coffee shops ignoring one another while chatting with friends or 
colleagues 7 time zones away?!


I believe that every form of technological "leverage" follows the 
metaphor at least far enough to include the "loss of sensitivity" on the 
strong-end of the lever.  Sure, with the right lever, you can heave a 1 
ton boulder, but can you gently tweak the last 12 ounces of force to 
*gently* move it off equilibrium?   So I'm not sure HOW to maintain 
sensitivity in the context of such high leverage.  The age of 
Transportation, Communications, etc. Brought huge societal problems 
which have either leveled out, or sadly, more likely, normalized.


As for the barfight, I'll let you know... and just fair warning, if you 
take wagers, put your money on *the other guy*, I might be scrappy, but 
about all I have going for me any more is mass, the ability to take a 
beating, and a willingness to gouge eyes when required.


- Steve


On 1/28/17 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:


Steve –

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the 
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything 
that participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back 
toward a fact-based attractor?


If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting 
that barfight might be your highest and best use. Let me know which 
bar you are going to, so I can come and watch.


But I think the question is yes.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven 
A Smith

*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com>

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once 
resembled sharp tools and useful fasteners?


I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a 
month (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately 
and the cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate 
would (eventually) drop below a certain threshold.


Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  
we might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with 
something more human (maybe still a form of populism, but not 
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).


If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to 
hurt *our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt 
(or in some twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then 
only consider how our personal context would be effected in turn by 
the larger context (is a happier, healthier, more informed society 
good or bad for you and your family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get 
more government services and be afforded less expensive access to 
other resources nominally part of the commons?)


et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own 
advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,

 - Steve

Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do
with my limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop
calling new products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going
to release the WE-phone.

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of
*Steven A Smith
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




What can WE hobbits do?

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the
Narcissist in Chief is

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

peoples' views. Sometimes that
just means sitting quietly and not responding.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Marcus Daniels
<mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

Well, I find this article depressing but plausible. 
Specifically,


Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:

“But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that
they needed to actually go to the slums and the countryside
<https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not
for a speech or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to
dance salsa — to show they were Venezuelans, too, that they
weren’t just dour scolds and could hit a baseball, could tell
a joke that landed. That they could break the tribal divide,
come down off the billboards and show that they were real.
This is not populism by other means. It is the only way of
establishing your standing. It’s deciding not to live in an
echo chamber. To press pause on the siren song of polarization.”

Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or
play baseball.  I have different interests.   I shouldn’t
have to pretend.  They won’t pretend to me, that’s for sure. 
This is not about polarization; this is about not wanting to

get pulled into that attractor.   We have different lives.
That should be fine.  This is the United States and
individualism is kind of a big thing here.

Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this
problem is a different matter. That is about appearances not
reality.

Marcus

*From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of "Robert J.
Cordingley" <rob...@cirrillian.com
<mailto:rob...@cirrillian.com>>
*Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Date: *Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM


*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a
Venezuelan on what to do and mostly what not to do.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did>

Robert C

On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that
I can do with my limited set of skills: Write Apple and
tell them to stop calling new products “I-this” and
“I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.

You must have something in your tool kit more effective
than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Steven
A Smith
        *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




What can WE hobbits do?

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree
that the Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a
(focused) reflection of our own worst qualities, and
*perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it
will help with the greater picture.

- Candide


Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of
*Jochen Fromm
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
*To:* The

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Grant Holland]

Pamela,

Good points. The arrangement in the US is apparently that the government 
(NSF-sponsored funding, universities, labs. etc.) performs basic 
research so that industry does not have to foot that bill or take that 
risk. Then private industry does the lower risk "applied research" to 
put products into the market.


For those who see this ploy as not exactly "capitalism as advertised", 
but rather a highly subsidized machine - I would say that you are 
connecting the dots properly.


Grant


On 1/28/17 4:53 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
Before we blame any particular technology for what seems like an 
epidemic of narcissism, we ought to remember that the 80s—or was it 
the 70s?—were widely known as the Me Decade. Either way, long before 
social media.


I’m always deeply amused by the libertarians who tell us how wicked 
government interference is at exactly the time they’re making their 
plush livings off a technology that wouldn’t have existed without 
decades (the fifties, the sixties, the seventies) of government 
investment. Would the Internet have happened anyway? Hard to imagine 
private investors sitting still for an investment that wouldn’t pay 
off for almost half a century.


So, drifting afar from a reality base isn’t unknown in Silly Valley.


On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson 
<nickthomp...@earthlink.net <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:


Steve –
Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to 
the narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there 
anything that participants in the computer industry could do tip the 
world back toward a fact-based attractor?
If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting 
that barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which 
bar you are going to, so I can come and watch.

But I think the question is yes.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]*On Behalf Of*Steven A 
Smith

*Sent:*Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
*To:*The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>

*Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
Toolkit? This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once 
resembled sharp tools and useful fasteners?


I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a 
month (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately 
and the cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate 
would (eventually) drop below a certain threshold.


Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  
we might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with 
something more human (maybe still a form of populism, but not 
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).


If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to 
hurt *our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt 
(or in some twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then 
only consider how our personal context would be effected in turn by 
the larger context (is a happier, healthier, more informed society 
good or bad for you and your family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get 
more government services and be afforded less expensive access to 
other resources nominally part of the commons?)


et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my 
own advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,

 - Steve


Ok Steve,
The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.
I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do 
with my limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop 
calling new products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to 
release the WE-phone.

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com]*On Behalf Of*Steven 
A Smith

*Sent:*Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
*To:*The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee 
Group<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>

*Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




What can WE hobbits do?

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the 
Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our 
own worst qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a 
little, it will help with the greater pict

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

< So, the question is , “Should we do what we can do, no matter how lame or 
ineffectual it might seem?”  Or, should we pull back, “move to Spain’, and 
leave it to others, “the politicians”, to lower themselves to do what needs to 
be done.  >

Andrés asserts it is not populism by another means.  It seems to me to be that. 
 I am not advocating leaving the country.  I am questioning him based on the 
fact he did leave just how sincere is he about living with his fellow man.   It 
sounds to me like he may have, or at least want to present, a romantic view of 
his Venezuelan homeland, and that it is easier to maintain from a safe distance 
in Europe.  That said, I don’t judge him for leaving nor U.S. citizens for 
leaving.

I don’t think this is solved by creating solidarity with witting vandals of 
this country.  That is BS.  This is solved by showing that BS doesn’t work.   
To me, that means create a cost for the vandals.   Polarize sufficiently to 
create a clear political identity and purpose – identify the enemy and identify 
the cause.   To you, it may mean counsel the vandals and lead them to 
contrition.  Or it could mean to incentivize them to do other things than 
vandalism.

“When they came for the immigrants, I didn’t do anything because I was not an 
immigrant”  etc.

If there is a better organization to support than the ACLU for litigating these 
insane executive orders, please let me know.

Another idea is to map out the Trump-friendly churches and reach them through 
soft techniques.  For example, if church A is more conservative to church B, 
but they are similar, a political action organization could financially support 
people (e.g. pastors) at church B to give talks to congregation A that are 
fact-based and show the reality of Trump’s policies on children or other 
sympathetic victims.   Pastors at small churches are not paid very well, so 
having a travel budget and training opportunities could help them 
professionally.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Pamela McCorduck]

Before we blame any particular technology for what seems like an epidemic of 
narcissism, we ought to remember that the 80s—or was it the 70s?—were widely 
known as the Me Decade. Either way, long before social media.

I’m always deeply amused by the libertarians who tell us how wicked government 
interference is at exactly the time they’re making their plush livings off a 
technology that wouldn’t have existed without decades (the fifties, the 
sixties, the seventies) of government investment. Would the Internet have 
happened anyway? Hard to imagine private investors sitting still for an 
investment that wouldn’t pay off for almost half a century.

So, drifting afar from a reality base isn’t unknown in Silly Valley.


> On Jan 28, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Steve –
>  
> Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the 
> narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that 
> participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a 
> fact-based attractor?  
>  
> If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that 
> barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are 
> going to, so I can come and watch.  
>  
> But I think the question is yes. 
>  
> Nick 
>  
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
> <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>  
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>  
> Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once resembled 
> sharp tools and useful fasteners?   
> 
> I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a month 
> (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and the 
> cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would 
> (eventually) drop below a certain threshold.  
> 
> Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
> conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  we might 
> reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something more human 
> (maybe still a form of populism, but not 
> nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).
> 
> If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to hurt 
> *our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or in some 
> twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then only consider how 
> our personal context would be effected in turn by the larger context (is a 
> happier, healthier, more informed society good or bad for you and your 
> family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get more government services and be 
> afforded less expensive access to other resources nominally part of the 
> commons?)  
> 
> et cetera, ad nauseum
> 
> I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own advice 
> and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,
>  - Steve
> 
>> Ok Steve, 
>>  
>> The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 
>>  
>> I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my 
>> limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new 
>> products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the 
>> WE-phone.  
>>  
>> You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!
>>  
>> Nick 
>>  
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>> Clark University
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
>> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>>  
>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> 
>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> What can WE hobbits do? 
>> Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?
>> 
>> Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist 
>> in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst 
>>

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Steve -

 

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that
participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a
fact-based attractor?  

 

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that
barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are
going to, so I can come and watch.  

 

But I think the question is yes. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once resembled
sharp tools and useful fasteners?   

I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a month
(and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and the
cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would
(eventually) drop below a certain threshold.  

Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  we
might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something more
human (maybe still a form of populism, but not
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).

If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to hurt
*our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or in some
twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then only consider how
our personal context would be effected in turn by the larger context (is a
happier, healthier, more informed society good or bad for you and your
family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get more government services and be
afforded less expensive access to other resources nominally part of the
commons?)  

et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own
advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,
 - Steve



Ok Steve, 

 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new
products "I-this" and "I-that."  When are they going to release the
WE-phone.  

 

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 






What can WE hobbits do? 

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist
in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst
qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will
help with the greater picture.   

- Candide




 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>; Friam
<mailto:Friam@redfish.com> <Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson  <mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'  <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'  <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>
<dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'  <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Yes, agree. Trump's point of view is "Whatever I can win with is true."  And
if he wins with what we call "a lie", it is true for him. Exactly.

 

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the
rebellion of the social media managers from the national parks is really
refreshing. Who would have thought that the national parks would strike
back? Like Treebea

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Gary Schiltz]

There is a lot of gray area between standing up for principles (openness to
new ideas, value of science and education, respect for rights of those with
whom you disagree) and holier-than-thou self-righteousness, which is what I
believe the "country folk" see as "elite". Step too far into that gray area
and you get shot down, perhaps justifiably so.

Steve, I haven't looked much at mesh networking, but it looks like nodes
need to be within hundreds of meters of each other, which is definitely not
my use case. And the Mesh Potato stuff seems to be mostly for voice, not
IP. If we want to discuss this more, it would probably be better suited for
a new topic on WedTech.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:

> Gary -
>
> I don't know if this is my own narcissistic self-indulgence, but as a
> one-time conservative (libertarian?) I am now so very aligned with the left
> *by* the rise of the right  such that I feel deeply and passionately
> offended by this right-wing populism that is sweeping us.   I feel more
> self-rightous about it than I ever have.  Having them take power so roughly
> and rudely and against their own self-interest has triggered me in a way
> that reminds me of the way so many former smokers become virulently
> intolerant of smoking.
>
> I am trying to heed the warning of not losing to my enemy by becoming
> him... by falling into the trap of thinking the only way to defend against
> hate is with hate, the seduction of fighting fire with fire.
>
> But I do feel a certain sanctimonious pleasure in stepping up nose to nose
> with virtually every Trumpian in my circle and daring them to try to do a
> victory dance on my head or the heads of those I care about or identify
> with.I have never enjoyed the role of the underdog quite so acutely
> before... it has a certain deliciousness to it.  I am responding with a
> very calm but firm NO to virtually every aspect of their agenda, most
> especially xenophobia, misogyny, misecology, and extractive/extortive
> capitalism.
>
> I believe *we* can be an overwhelmingly powerful "silent majority" in
> these times if we stand firm behind our beliefs (as varied in quality and
> degree as they may be).
>
> - Steve
>
> PS.  have you looked at the world of Mesh Potato for 3rd world
> networking?  I am vaguely set to bring that class of technology to my
> colleagues in Panama and in Kenya when the time is ripe.
>
> On 1/28/17 1:18 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> I agree that we shouldn't have to feign interest in others' interests. I'm
> not ready to pretend to like country music, go to church, praise military
> adventures that I don't agree with, tell gays they are going to hell and
> that god will heal them. At the same time, I don't see how it is productive
> to make fun of peoples' faith and cultural tastes, although I've been
> plenty guilty of that myself, feeding my own ego. Liberals can be just as
> intolerant as conservatives, and we will only make progress when we start
> to respect other peoples' views. Sometimes that just means sitting quietly
> and not responding.
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, I find this article depressing but plausible.  Specifically,
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> “But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that they needed
>> to actually go to the slums and the countryside
>> <https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not for a speech
>> or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to dance salsa — to show they
>> were Venezuelans, too, that they weren’t just dour scolds and could hit a
>> baseball, could tell a joke that landed. That they could break the tribal
>> divide, come down off the billboards and show that they were real. This is
>> not populism by other means. It is the only way of establishing your
>> standing. It’s deciding not to live in an echo chamber. To press pause on
>> the siren song of polarization.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or play
>> baseball.  I have different interests.   I shouldn’t have to pretend.  They
>> won’t pretend to me, that’s for sure.  This is not about polarization; this
>> is about not wanting to get pulled into that attractor.   We have different
>> lives.  That should be fine.  This is the United States and individualism
>> is kind of a big thing here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this problem is
>> a different matter. That is about appearances not reality.
>>
>>
>>

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Well, Marcus, 

 

So, the question is , “Should we do what we can do, no matter how lame or 
ineffectual it might seem?”  Or, should we pull back, “move to Spain’, and 
leave it to others, “the politicians”, to lower themselves to do what needs to 
be done.  Isn’t this one of the things the Quakers get right:  You don’t worry 
about what others are doing.  You do it right, yourself.  You act as you would 
have others act?  

 

The answer would seem to depend on whether each one of us thinks that he or she 
is going to be touched by this thing.  This is where, I think, my libertarian 
friends (Hi, Guys!) get it wrong.  They think it’s possible to step aside, to 
lift one’s skirts about the flood of muck that is  about to descend upon us -- 
survive it all, listening to jazz (say) and eating canned food in the green 
painted walls of their condo in the depths of their converted missile silo, 
with flat-screen “windows” looking out on the surrounding countryside. 

 

“When they came for the immigrants, I didn’t do anything because I was not an 
immigrant”  etc. 

 

I think we have to figure out what we can do, and begin to do it.  

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 12:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

It is worth noting he’s living in Spain.  

 

From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of "Robert J. Cordingley" <rob...@cirrillian.com 
<mailto:rob...@cirrillian.com> >
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Date: Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on what to do 
and mostly what not to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

Robert C

 

 

On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Ok Steve, 

 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my 
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new products 
“I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.  

 

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 





What can WE hobbits do? 

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist in 
Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst qualities, and 
*perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will help with the 
greater picture.   

- Candide



 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>; Friam  
<mailto:Friam@redfish.com> <Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson  <mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net> 
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'  <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com> 
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'  <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com> 
<dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'  <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net> 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”  And if 
he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.

 

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful 
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the rebellion 
of 

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Gary -

I don't know if this is my own narcissistic self-indulgence, but as a 
one-time conservative (libertarian?) I am now so very aligned with the 
left *by* the rise of the right  such that I feel deeply and 
passionately offended by this right-wing populism that is sweeping us.   
I feel more self-rightous about it than I ever have.  Having them take 
power so roughly and rudely and against their own self-interest has 
triggered me in a way that reminds me of the way so many former smokers 
become virulently intolerant of smoking.


I am trying to heed the warning of not losing to my enemy by becoming 
him... by falling into the trap of thinking the only way to defend 
against hate is with hate, the seduction of fighting fire with fire.


But I do feel a certain sanctimonious pleasure in stepping up nose to 
nose with virtually every Trumpian in my circle and daring them to try 
to do a victory dance on my head or the heads of those I care about or 
identify with.I have never enjoyed the role of the underdog quite so 
acutely before... it has a certain deliciousness to it.  I am responding 
with a very calm but firm NO to virtually every aspect of their agenda, 
most especially xenophobia, misogyny, misecology, and 
extractive/extortive capitalism.


I believe *we* can be an overwhelmingly powerful "silent majority" in 
these times if we stand firm behind our beliefs (as varied in quality 
and degree as they may be).


- Steve

PS.  have you looked at the world of Mesh Potato for 3rd world 
networking?  I am vaguely set to bring that class of technology to my 
colleagues in Panama and in Kenya when the time is ripe.



On 1/28/17 1:18 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
I agree that we shouldn't have to feign interest in others' interests. 
I'm not ready to pretend to like country music, go to church, praise 
military adventures that I don't agree with, tell gays they are going 
to hell and that god will heal them. At the same time, I don't see how 
it is productive to make fun of peoples' faith and cultural tastes, 
although I've been plenty guilty of that myself, feeding my own ego. 
Liberals can be just as intolerant as conservatives, and we will only 
make progress when we start to respect other peoples' views. Sometimes 
that just means sitting quietly and not responding.


On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com 
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:


Well, I find this article depressing but plausible. Specifically,

Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:

“But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that they
needed to actually go to the slums and the countryside
<https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not for a
speech or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to dance salsa —
to show they were Venezuelans, too, that they weren’t just dour
scolds and could hit a baseball, could tell a joke that landed.
That they could break the tribal divide, come down off the
billboards and show that they were real. This is not populism by
other means. It is the only way of establishing your standing.
It’s deciding not to live in an echo chamber. To press pause on
the siren song of polarization.”

Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or play
baseball.  I have different interests.   I shouldn’t have to
pretend.  They won’t pretend to me, that’s for sure.  This is not
about polarization; this is about not wanting to get pulled into
that attractor.   We have different lives.  That should be fine. 
This is the United States and individualism is kind of a big thing

here.

Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this
problem is a different matter. That is about appearances not reality.

Marcus

*From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of "Robert J.
Cordingley" <rob...@cirrillian.com <mailto:rob...@cirrillian.com>>
*Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Date: *Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM


*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
    <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on
what to do and mostly what not to do.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did>

Robert C

On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to 

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Gary Schiltz]

I agree that we shouldn't have to feign interest in others' interests. I'm
not ready to pretend to like country music, go to church, praise military
adventures that I don't agree with, tell gays they are going to hell and
that god will heal them. At the same time, I don't see how it is productive
to make fun of peoples' faith and cultural tastes, although I've been
plenty guilty of that myself, feeding my own ego. Liberals can be just as
intolerant as conservatives, and we will only make progress when we start
to respect other peoples' views. Sometimes that just means sitting quietly
and not responding.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com>
wrote:

> Well, I find this article depressing but plausible.  Specifically,
>
>
>
> Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:
>
>
>
> “But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that they needed to
> actually go to the slums and the countryside
> <https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not for a speech
> or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to dance salsa — to show they
> were Venezuelans, too, that they weren’t just dour scolds and could hit a
> baseball, could tell a joke that landed. That they could break the tribal
> divide, come down off the billboards and show that they were real. This is
> not populism by other means. It is the only way of establishing your
> standing. It’s deciding not to live in an echo chamber. To press pause on
> the siren song of polarization.”
>
>
>
> Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or play
> baseball.  I have different interests.   I shouldn’t have to pretend.  They
> won’t pretend to me, that’s for sure.  This is not about polarization; this
> is about not wanting to get pulled into that attractor.   We have different
> lives.  That should be fine.  This is the United States and individualism
> is kind of a big thing here.
>
>
>
> Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this problem is a
> different matter. That is about appearances not reality.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of "Robert J.
> Cordingley" <rob...@cirrillian.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM
>
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>
>
>
> The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on what to
> do and mostly what not to do.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/
> 27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did
>
> Robert C
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
>
> Ok Steve,
>
>
>
> The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.
>
>
>
> I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my
> limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new
> products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the
> WE-phone.
>
>
>
> You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What can WE hobbits do?
>
> Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?
>
> Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the
> Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own
> worst qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it
> will help with the greater picture.
>
> - Candide
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>; Friam <Friam@redfi

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once 
resembled sharp tools and useful fasteners?


I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a 
month (and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and 
the cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would 
(eventually) drop below a certain threshold.


Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful 
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir, we 
might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something 
more human (maybe still a form of populism, but not 
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).


If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to 
hurt *our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or 
in some twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then only 
consider how our personal context would be effected in turn by the 
larger context (is a happier, healthier, more informed society good or 
bad for you and your family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get more 
government services and be afforded less expensive access to other 
resources nominally part of the commons?)


et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own 
advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,

 - Steve


Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do 
with my limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop 
calling new products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to 
release the WE-phone.


You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven 
A Smith

*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com>

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]



What can WE hobbits do?

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the 
Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our 
own worst qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a 
little, it will help with the greater picture.


- Candide

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of
*Jochen Fromm
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>; Friam
<Friam@redfish.com> <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>
*Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'
<bjs...@yahoo.com> <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'
<dixmccom...@gmail.com> <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant
    Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net> <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is
true.”  And if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for
him. Exactly.

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say
peaceful protests are the right way. The women's march was
impressive, and the rebellion of the social media managers from
the national parks is really refreshing. Who would have thought
that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard who
becomes alive.

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house
elves that beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the
Rings it is the Hobbits that beat the evil enemy. I think in this
case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits of the 21st century. The
modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who support Mr. T-Rump
and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and famous
along the way.

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is
Sauron and Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the
ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter
and/or quit Twitter completely? If we all stop following and
listening him he loses his power. This includes the senior
Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because
they hope for a job in his administration.

Ch

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

It is worth noting he’s living in Spain.

From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of "Robert J. Cordingley" 
<rob...@cirrillian.com>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Date: Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]


The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on what to do 
and mostly what not to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

Robert C



On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my 
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new products 
“I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com><mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




What can WE hobbits do?
Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist in 
Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst qualities, and 
*perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will help with the 
greater picture.

- Candide



Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com><mailto:friam@redfish.com>; Friam 
<Friam@redfish.com><mailto:Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson 
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net><mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce 
Simon' <bjs...@yahoo.com><mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' 
<dixmccom...@gmail.com><mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks' 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net><mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”  And if 
he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful 
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the rebellion 
of the social media managers from the national parks is really refreshing. Who 
would have thought that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard 
who becomes alive.

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that 
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits that 
beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits 
of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who 
support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and 
famous along the way.

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and Jack 
Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will 
he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter completely? If we all 
stop following and listening him he loses his power. This includes the senior 
Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because they hope for a 
job in his administration.

Cheers,

Jochen


Sent from my Tricorder

 Original message 
From: Nick Thompson 
<nickthomp...@earthlink.net<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>
Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00)
To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com<mailto:Friam@redfish.com>>
Cc: penny thompson 
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>>, 'Bruce 
Simon' <bjs...@yahoo.com<mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>>, 'Dix McComas' 
<dixmccom...@gmail.com<mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>>, 'Grant Franks' 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net<mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>>
Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Hi everybody,
I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming back to 
this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.
So.  Let me just share one

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, I find this article depressing but plausible.  Specifically,

Andrés Miguel Rondón writes:

“But it took opposition leaders 10 years to figure out that they needed to 
actually go to the slums and the 
countryside<https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2015/11/04/selfie/>. Not for a 
speech or a rally, but for a game of dominoes or to dance salsa — to show they 
were Venezuelans, too, that they weren’t just dour scolds and could hit a 
baseball, could tell a joke that landed. That they could break the tribal 
divide, come down off the billboards and show that they were real. This is not 
populism by other means. It is the only way of establishing your standing. It’s 
deciding not to live in an echo chamber. To press pause on the siren song of 
polarization.”

Figuratively, I don’t want to play dominoes, dance salsa, or play baseball.  I 
have different interests.   I shouldn’t have to pretend.  They won’t pretend to 
me, that’s for sure.  This is not about polarization; this is about not wanting 
to get pulled into that attractor.   We have different lives.  That should be 
fine.  This is the United States and individualism is kind of a big thing here.

Now what politicians and opposition leaders do to manage this problem is a 
different matter. That is about appearances not reality.

Marcus


From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of "Robert J. Cordingley" 
<rob...@cirrillian.com>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Date: Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]


The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on what to do 
and mostly what not to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

Robert C



On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my 
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new products 
“I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to release the WE-phone.

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com><mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]




What can WE hobbits do?
Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist in 
Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst qualities, and 
*perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will help with the 
greater picture.

- Candide



Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com><mailto:friam@redfish.com>; Friam 
<Friam@redfish.com><mailto:Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson 
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net><mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce 
Simon' <bjs...@yahoo.com><mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' 
<dixmccom...@gmail.com><mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks' 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net><mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”  And if 
he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful 
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the rebellion 
of the social media managers from the national parks is really refreshing. Who 
would have thought that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard 
who becomes alive.

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that 
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits that 
beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits 
of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who 
support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and 
famous alo

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Gillian Densmore]

Glenn really Saromon? Naw not, Saromon, he's more like, plotting and
scheming Sith or Romulan that can't quit get it.Saramon, is giving him a
little bit too much credit from what I've seen. He's more like a Gul
Ducacut from Star Trek. Or the Duras Sisters and going all Evil dude from
the Simpsons LOL!
I'm expecting him to go all Zoom or legends of tomorrow. LOL
he really needs to watch his blood pressure or something because he looks
like he's about to explode from the Tevor Noah show. LOL
Somone

LOL Someone might offer him some Diazapam.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”
>  And if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.
>
> If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful
> protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the
> rebellion of the social media managers from the national parks is really
> refreshing. Who would have thought that the national parks would strike
> back? Like Treebeard who becomes alive.
>
> In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves
> that beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the
> Hobbits that beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone
> are the Hobbits of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage
> midwestern guys who support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope
> to get a bit rich and famous along the way.
>
> People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and
> Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom,
> i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter
> completely? If we all stop following and listening him he loses his power.
> This includes the senior Republican politicians who do not speak up against
> him because they hope for a job in his administration.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jochen
>
>
> Sent from my Tricorder
>
>  Original message 
> From: Nick Thompson 
> Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00)
> To: Friam 
> Cc: penny thompson , 'Bruce Simon' <
> bjs...@yahoo.com>, 'Dix McComas' , 'Grant Franks' <
> grantfra...@earthlink.net>
> Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming
> back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.
>
> So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
> think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the
> elements of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if
> we gather inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully,
> investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the
> time of my coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over
> last 50 years, *a position in the argument.  *The alternative to this
> Deweyan position seems to be something like, “*There is no truth of the
> matter; there is only the exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by
> whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is not something that is arrived at;
> it is won.”*
>
> So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary,
> he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.
> From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  Hence, if
> he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true.
>
> I feel we are straying along the edge of some *Nietzschean *chasm here.
> Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in
> Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the Madman
> . And THAT led
> me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen
> , about marketing execs in the
> 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is ever a
> domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be marketing.
>
> So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.
>
> Heavy lift.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe 

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Robert J. Cordingley]

The Washington Post has an interesting essay from a Venezuelan on what 
to do and mostly what not to do.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did

Robert C



On 1/28/17 11:21 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:


Ok Steve,

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge.

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do 
with my limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop 
calling new products “I-this” and “I-that.”  When are they going to 
release the WE-phone.


You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven 
A Smith

*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com>

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]



What can WE hobbits do?

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the 
Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our 
own worst qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a 
little, it will help with the greater picture.


- Candide

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>

*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of
*Jochen Fromm
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>; Friam
<Friam@redfish.com> <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>
*Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'
<bjs...@yahoo.com> <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'
<dixmccom...@gmail.com> <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant
Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net> <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is
true.”  And if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for
him. Exactly.

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say
peaceful protests are the right way. The women's march was
impressive, and the rebellion of the social media managers from
the national parks is really refreshing. Who would have thought
that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard who
becomes alive.

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house
elves that beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the
Rings it is the Hobbits that beat the evil enemy. I think in this
case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits of the 21st century. The
modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who support Mr. T-Rump
and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and famous
along the way.

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is
Sauron and Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the
ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter
and/or quit Twitter completely? If we all stop following and
listening him he loses his power. This includes the senior
Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because
they hope for a job in his administration.

Cheers,

Jochen

Sent from my Tricorder

 Original message 

From: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>

Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00)

To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>>

Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>>, 'Bruce Simon'
<bjs...@yahoo.com <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>>, 'Dix McComas'
<dixmccom...@gmail.com <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>>, 'Grant
Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net
<mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>>

Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Hi everybody,

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep
coming back to this topic, even when we are talking about globalism.

So. Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times
that I think the great achievement of the Right in my life time
has been to problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the
1950’s  One

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Ok Steve, 

 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new
products "I-this" and "I-that."  When are they going to release the
WE-phone.  

 

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 





What can WE hobbits do? 

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist
in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst
qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will
help with the greater picture.   

- Candide



 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com>; Friam
<mailto:Friam@redfish.com> <Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson  <mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>
<penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'  <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'  <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>
<dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'  <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Yes, agree. Trump's point of view is "Whatever I can win with is true."  And
if he wins with what we call "a lie", it is true for him. Exactly.

 

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the
rebellion of the social media managers from the national parks is really
refreshing. Who would have thought that the national parks would strike
back? Like Treebeard who becomes alive.

 

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits
that beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the
Hobbits of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys
who support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich
and famous along the way.

 

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and
Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom,
i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter completely?
If we all stop following and listening him he loses his power. This includes
the senior Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because
they hope for a job in his administration.

 

Cheers,

 

Jochen

 

 

Sent from my Tricorder

 

 Original message 

From: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > 

Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00) 

To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com <mailto:Friam@redfish.com> > 

Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net> >, 'Bruce Simon' <bjs...@yahoo.com
<mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com> >, 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com
<mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com> >, 'Grant Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net
<mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net> > 

Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again] 

 

Hi everybody,

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming back
to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism. 

So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950's  One of the elements
of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if we gather
inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully, investigate
rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the time of my
coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over last 50 years,
a position in the argument.  The alternative to this Deweyan position seems
to be something like, "There is no truth of the matter; there is onl

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Steven A Smith]

What can WE hobbits do?


Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the 
Narcissist in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own 
worst qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, 
it will help with the greater picture.


- Candide


Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Jochen 
Fromm

*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com>; Friam <Friam@redfish.com>
*Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon' 
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant 
Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net>

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is 
true.”  And if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. 
Exactly.


If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say 
peaceful protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, 
and the rebellion of the social media managers from the national parks 
is really refreshing. Who would have thought that the national parks 
would strike back? Like Treebeard who becomes alive.


In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves 
that beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is 
the Hobbits that beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like 
Ken Bone are the Hobbits of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are 
adverage midwestern guys who support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on 
Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and famous along the way.


People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron 
and Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into 
Mt. Doom, i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit 
Twitter completely? If we all stop following and listening him he 
loses his power. This includes the senior Republican politicians who 
do not speak up against him because they hope for a job in his 
administration.


Cheers,

Jochen

Sent from my Tricorder

 Original message 

From: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>


Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00)

To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com <mailto:Friam@redfish.com>>

Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>>, 'Bruce Simon' 
<bjs...@yahoo.com <mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com>>, 'Dix McComas' 
<dixmccom...@gmail.com <mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com>>, 'Grant Franks' 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net <mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net>>


Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Hi everybody,

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming 
back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.


So. Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I 
think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to 
problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the 
elements of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters 
and if we gather inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study 
carefully, investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to it. 
What was, at the time of my coming of age, the shared foundation of 
argument, became over last 50 years, /a position in the argument. /The 
alternative to this Deweyan position seems to be something like, 
“/There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of 
power. He who wins the argument, by whatever means, wins the truth.  
Truth is not something that is arrived at; it is won.”/


So. My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the 
contrary, he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a 
possibility.  From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is 
true.”  Hence, if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true.


I feel we are straying along the edge of some *Nietzschean *chasm 
here.  Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage 
in Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the Madman 
<http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp>. And THAT 
led me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>, about marketing execs in the 
60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is 
ever a domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be 
marketing.


So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating 
that he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.


Heavy li

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Dear All, 

 

I have been teasing the Local Congregation about our role in the Narcissistic 
Revolution of the last 30 years … cable TV, the “personal” computer, the I-mac, 
the I-phone, You-tube, facebook, etc.  What sort of bots and memes could people 
of our power and talent unleash into the world that would break this relentless 
cycle of positive reinforcement for narrowness of mind? Perhaps a video game 
where facts matter?  

 

What can WE hobbits do? 

 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>; 
Friam <Friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon' 
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks' 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”  And if 
he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.

 

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful 
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the rebellion 
of the social media managers from the national parks is really refreshing. Who 
would have thought that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard 
who becomes alive.

 

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that 
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits that 
beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits 
of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who 
support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and 
famous along the way.

 

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and Jack 
Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will 
he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter completely? If we all 
stop following and listening him he loses his power. This includes the senior 
Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because they hope for a 
job in his administration.

 

Cheers,

 

Jochen

 

 

Sent from my Tricorder

 

 Original message 

From: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > 

Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00) 

To: Friam <Friam@redfish.com <mailto:Friam@redfish.com> > 

Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:penny.thomp...@earthlink.net> >, 'Bruce Simon' <bjs...@yahoo.com 
<mailto:bjs...@yahoo.com> >, 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com 
<mailto:dixmccom...@gmail.com> >, 'Grant Franks' <grantfra...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:grantfra...@earthlink.net> > 

Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again] 

 

Hi everybody,

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming back to 
this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism. 

So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I think 
the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to problematize 
(Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the elements of that 
consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if we gather 
inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully, investigate 
rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the time of my 
coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over last 50 years, a 
position in the argument.  The alternative to this Deweyan position seems to be 
something like, “There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of 
power.  He who wins the argument, by whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is 
not something that is arrived at; it is won.”

So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary, he 
does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.  From 
Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  Hence, if he wins 
with what we call “a lie”, it is true. 

I feel we are straying along the edge of some Nietzschean chasm here.  
Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in Wikipedia, 
led me to The Parable of the Madman 
<http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp> . And THAT led me to 
wonder if the TV Series, Madmen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> , about 
marketing execs in the 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, 
if there is ever a domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be 
marketing. 

So, if we are going

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Jochen Fromm]

Yes, agree. Trump’s point of view is “Whatever I can win with is true.”  And if 
he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true for him. Exactly.
If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful 
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the rebellion 
of the social media managers from the national parks is really refreshing. Who 
would have thought that the national parks would strike back? Like Treebeard 
who becomes alive.
In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that 
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits that 
beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the Hobbits 
of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys who 
support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich and 
famous along the way.
People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and Jack 
Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom, i.e. will 
he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter completely? If we all 
stop following and listening him he loses his power. This includes the senior 
Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because they hope for a 
job in his administration.
Cheers,
Jochen

Sent from my Tricorder
 Original message From: Nick Thompson 
 Date: 1/28/17  01:57  (GMT+01:00) To: Friam 
 Cc: penny thompson , 'Bruce 
Simon' , 'Dix McComas' , 'Grant 
Franks'  Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again] 
Hi everybody,I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep 
coming back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism. So.  Let 
me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I think the great 
achievement of the Right in my life time has been to problematize (Ugh!) the 
Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the elements of that consensus was that 
there is a truth of most matters and if we gather inclusively, talk calmly, 
reason closely, study carefully, investigate rigorously,  we will, together , 
come to it.  What was, at the time of my coming of age, the shared foundation 
of argument, became over last 50 years, a position in the argument.  The 
alternative to this Deweyan position seems to be something like, “There is no 
truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of power.  He who wins the 
argument, by whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is not something that is 
arrived at; it is won.”So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying. 
 On the contrary, he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a 
possibility.  From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  
Hence, if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true. I feel we are straying 
along the edge of some Nietzschean chasm here.  Unfortunately  I haven’t read 
any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the 
Madman. And THAT led me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen, about marketing 
execs in the 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there 
is ever a domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be marketing. 
So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that he 
lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win. Heavy lift.Nick 
Nicholas S. ThompsonEmeritus Professor of Psychology and BiologyClark 
Universityhttp://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

No problem, Marcus,

 

I think Friam's thread-shortening algorithm cuts off at two, so I wanted to
make sure that I had the last word.

 

No Nietszchean, I. 

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 8:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

 

< What nick said was, "[For such a person as trump,] there is no truth of
the matter, there is only the exercise of power." >

 

I was capturing the essential bit.   Nothing good ever comes from
attribution.

 

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

< What nick said was, "[For such a person as trump,] there is no truth of the 
matter, there is only the exercise of power." >

I was capturing the essential bit.   Nothing good ever comes from attribution.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Gillian Densmore]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YLS80Nmls

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> By the way, all.
>
>
>
> What nick said was, “[For such a person as trump,] there is no truth of
> the matter, there is only the exercise of power.”
>
>
>
> Nick, himself, is irrationally dedicated to there being a truth, and that,
> with effort and good will, people can arrive at it.
>
>
>
> [signed]
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
> Daniels
> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2017 6:41 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon' <
> bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks' <
> grantfra...@earthlink.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>
>
>
> Nick writes:
>
>
>
> “*There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of power. “*
>
>
>
> [..]
>
>
>
> “So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.”
>
>
>
> He’s old and nearing the last round of his iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma
> game.  He wants everyone to know about his power and -- this is perhaps
> giving him too much credit -- his defection.   As far as objective
> consequences to denying the truth, what are possible ways he could go down?
>
>
>
> 1)  He fails to make policies that are consistent with economic
> possibility and creates a serious global recession.
>
> 2)  He insults the GOP leadership and bullies them when they are not
> going to move.
>
> 3)  He does more illegal things thinking no one will notice, and is
> forced out in disgrace like Nixon.
>
> 4)  He deregulates to the point that there is a conspicuous health or
> safety crisis that impacts millions.
>
>
>
> Climate change probably won’t get him in the next four years unless there
> is some big tipping point.
>
> If any of these things happen, it would probably unspool the whole
> administration, but not necessarily.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

By the way, all. 

 

What nick said was, "[For such a person as trump,] there is no truth of the
matter, there is only the exercise of power." 

 

Nick, himself, is irrationally dedicated to there being a truth, and that,
with effort and good will, people can arrive at it. 

 

[signed]

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 6:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas' <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

Nick writes:

 

"There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of power. "

 

[..]

 

"So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that he
lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don't win."

 

He's old and nearing the last round of his iterated Prisoner's Dilemma game.
He wants everyone to know about his power and -- this is perhaps giving him
too much credit -- his defection.   As far as objective consequences to
denying the truth, what are possible ways he could go down?

 

1)  He fails to make policies that are consistent with economic
possibility and creates a serious global recession.

2)  He insults the GOP leadership and bullies them when they are not
going to move.

3)  He does more illegal things thinking no one will notice, and is
forced out in disgrace like Nixon.

4)  He deregulates to the point that there is a conspicuous health or
safety crisis that impacts millions.

 

Climate change probably won't get him in the next four years unless there is
some big tipping point.

If any of these things happen, it would probably unspool the whole
administration, but not necessarily.

 

Marcus

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Frank Wimberly]

   - Anti-social behavior.  Trump University, grabbing "women".
   - Sadism. Mocking disabled person
   - Aggressiveness. Kicking people out of his rallies.
   - Paranoia. The press is against me.
   - Grandiosity. I will be the greatest...Ever.
   - Entitled. Having affairs during three marriages.
   - Regressed.  Tantrums.
   - Manipulative. Using distractions.
   - Destructive.  Dismantling ACA.
   - Egocentric.  I know more than the generals.
   - Use of projection.  Ted Cruz and Hillary are liars.
   - Lack of conscience. Stiffing contractors.
   - Narcissistic.  All of the above.  I am the only one who can solve
   these problems.

Examples by me.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 27, 2017 7:14 PM, "Frank Wimberly" <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Glen said I hadn't provided enough evidence. Arguing by citing authority I
> offer:
>
> http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/01/27/johns-hopkins-top-
> psychotherapist-releases-terrifying-diagnosis-of-president-trump/
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Jan 27, 2017 7:04 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry.  It’s one of those words I use because I thought everybody ELSE
>> knows what it means.  I guess I meant, “To cause what had hitherto been
>> seen as straightforward to be thought of as a problem.”  To undermine a
>> consensus.   N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
>> Densmore
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2017 6:40 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; Bruce Simon <
>> bjs...@yahoo.com>; Dix McComas <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; Grant Franks <
>> grantfra...@earthlink.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>>
>>
>>
>> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan
>>
>> to see as problematic?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Nick Thompson <
>> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>>
>>
>> I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming
>> back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.
>>
>>
>>
>> So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
>> think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
>> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the
>> elements of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if
>> we gather inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully,
>> investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the
>> time of my coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over
>> last 50 years, *a position in the argument.  *The alternative to this
>> Deweyan position seems to be something like, “*There is no truth of the
>> matter; there is only the exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by
>> whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is not something that is arrived at;
>> it is won.”*
>>
>>
>>
>> So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the
>> contrary, he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a
>> possibility.  From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is
>> true.”  Hence, if he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true.
>>
>>
>>
>> I feel we are straying along the edge of some *Nietzschean *chasm here.
>> Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in
>> Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the Madman
>> <http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp>. And THAT led
>> me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>, about marketing execs in the
>> 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is ever a
>> domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be marketing.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
>> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.
>>
>>
>>
>> Heavy lift.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Em

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Frank Wimberly]

Glen said I hadn't provided enough evidence. Arguing by citing authority I
offer:

http://bipartisanreport.com/2017/01/27/johns-hopkins-top-psychotherapist-releases-terrifying-diagnosis-of-president-trump/

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 27, 2017 7:04 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Sorry.  It’s one of those words I use because I thought everybody ELSE
> knows what it means.  I guess I meant, “To cause what had hitherto been
> seen as straightforward to be thought of as a problem.”  To undermine a
> consensus.   N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Owen
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2017 6:40 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Cc:* penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; Bruce Simon <
> bjs...@yahoo.com>; Dix McComas <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; Grant Franks <
> grantfra...@earthlink.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]
>
>
>
> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan
>
> to see as problematic?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
>
>
> I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming
> back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.
>
>
>
> So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
> think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the
> elements of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if
> we gather inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully,
> investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the
> time of my coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over
> last 50 years, *a position in the argument.  *The alternative to this
> Deweyan position seems to be something like, “*There is no truth of the
> matter; there is only the exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by
> whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is not something that is arrived at;
> it is won.”*
>
>
>
> So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary,
> he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.
> From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  Hence, if
> he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true.
>
>
>
> I feel we are straying along the edge of some *Nietzschean *chasm here.
> Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in
> Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the Madman
> <http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp>. And THAT led
> me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>, about marketing execs in the
> 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is ever a
> domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be marketing.
>
>
>
> So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.
>
>
>
> Heavy lift.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Nick Thompson]

Sorry.  It’s one of those words I use because I thought everybody ELSE knows 
what it means.  I guess I meant, “To cause what had hitherto been seen as 
straightforward to be thought of as a problem.”  To undermine a consensus.   N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 6:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson <penny.thomp...@earthlink.net>; Bruce Simon 
<bjs...@yahoo.com>; Dix McComas <dixmccom...@gmail.com>; Grant Franks 
<grantfra...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

 

problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan

to see as problematic?

 

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote:

Hi everybody, 

 

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming back to 
this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.  

 

So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I think 
the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to problematize 
(Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the elements of that 
consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if we gather 
inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully, investigate 
rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the time of my 
coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over last 50 years, a 
position in the argument.  The alternative to this Deweyan position seems to be 
something like, “There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of 
power.  He who wins the argument, by whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is 
not something that is arrived at; it is won.”

 

So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary, he 
does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.  From 
Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  Hence, if he wins 
with what we call “a lie”, it is true.  

 

I feel we are straying along the edge of some Nietzschean chasm here.  
Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in Wikipedia, 
led me to The Parable of the Madman 
<http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp> . And THAT led me to 
wonder if the TV Series, Madmen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> , about 
marketing execs in the 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, 
if there is ever a domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be 
marketing.  

 

So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that he 
lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.  

 

Heavy lift. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Owen Densmore]

Just a thought: Don't emergency rooms have to treat anyone who walks
through the door?

I recall seeing a *lot* of that when my mom-in-law was in the hospital.
These were folks with fairly minor problems like a rash or the flu. And I'm
delighted they got care.

So all minimizing ACA will do is up the federal dollars going to hospitals,
right?

   -- Owen

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> Nick writes:
>
>
>
> “*There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of power. “*
>
>
>
> [..]
>
>
>
> “So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.”
>
>
>
> He’s old and nearing the last round of his iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma
> game.  He wants everyone to know about his power and -- this is perhaps
> giving him too much credit -- his defection.   As far as objective
> consequences to denying the truth, what are possible ways he could go down?
>
>
>
> 1)  He fails to make policies that are consistent with economic
> possibility and creates a serious global recession.
>
> 2)  He insults the GOP leadership and bullies them when they are not
> going to move.
>
> 3)  He does more illegal things thinking no one will notice, and is
> forced out in disgrace like Nixon.
>
> 4)  He deregulates to the point that there is a conspicuous health or
> safety crisis that impacts millions.
>
>
>
> Climate change probably won’t get him in the next four years unless there
> is some big tipping point.
>
> If any of these things happen, it would probably unspool the whole
> administration, but not necessarily.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Marcus Daniels]

Nick writes:

"There is no truth of the matter; there is only the exercise of power. "

[..]

"So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that he 
lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don't win."

He's old and nearing the last round of his iterated Prisoner's Dilemma game.  
He wants everyone to know about his power and -- this is perhaps giving him too 
much credit -- his defection.   As far as objective consequences to denying the 
truth, what are possible ways he could go down?


1)  He fails to make policies that are consistent with economic possibility 
and creates a serious global recession.

2)  He insults the GOP leadership and bullies them when they are not going 
to move.

3)  He does more illegal things thinking no one will notice, and is forced 
out in disgrace like Nixon.

4)  He deregulates to the point that there is a conspicuous health or 
safety crisis that impacts millions.


Climate change probably won't get him in the next four years unless there is 
some big tipping point.
If any of these things happen, it would probably unspool the whole 
administration, but not necessarily.

Marcus



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

[Owen Densmore]

>
> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan

to see as problematic?

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
>
>
> I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming
> back to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism.
>
>
>
> So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
> think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
> problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950’s  One of the
> elements of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if
> we gather inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully,
> investigate rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the
> time of my coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over
> last 50 years, *a position in the argument.  *The alternative to this
> Deweyan position seems to be something like, “*There is no truth of the
> matter; there is only the exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by
> whatever means, wins the truth.  Truth is not something that is arrived at;
> it is won.”*
>
>
>
> So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary,
> he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.
> From Trump’s point of view, “Whatever I can win with is true.”  Hence, if
> he wins with what we call “a lie”, it is true.
>
>
>
> I feel we are straying along the edge of some *Nietzschean *chasm here.
> Unfortunately  I haven’t read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in
> Wikipedia, led me to The Parable of the Madman
> . And THAT led
> me to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen
> , about marketing execs in the
> 60’s, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In any case, if there is ever a
> domain in which the truth is that which wins, it would be marketing.
>
>
>
> So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that
> he lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don’t win.
>
>
>
> Heavy lift.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove