subject:"\[Audyssey\] xbox accessibility\?"


Hi Kara.

what I meant is that most sighted people do not naturally touch type, they 
look at the keyboard and push individual keys with a couple of fingers. 
Obviously this is not to say all certainly anyone who has worked in a job 
revolving aroun taking dictation will have the skills to do it including 
touch typing, it's just that your average sighted person doesn't.


This means that for a sighted person, an on screen touch screen keyboard and 
an actual keyboard aren't that different, and they'd use them the same way, 
just point and press, which is why as I said I see keyboards becoming a more 
specialist thing in the future, not a standard input device, but not 
something that will entirely be replaced by touch screens either sinse touch 
typing will still be the fastest way of typing an making notes.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



HI Dark,

You said:

most sighted people cannot actually touch type at anything like a 
respectable speed, they just peer at the keys and press so aren't that 
much slower than with a conventional keyboard


What do you mean about sighted people not being able to touch-type 
quickly?


Am I completely misunderstanding you here?

Thanks bunches!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

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On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:38 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

That is why I use dictation.

the problem however devin is most sighted people cannot actually touch 
type at anything like a respectable speed, they just peer at the keys and 
press so aren't that much slower than with a conventional keyboard.


I suspect keyboards will always be around in some form, even if just for 
taking notes or secretarial jobs simply because an accomplished typist 
will always be faster than someone using a touch screen, though as on ios, 
keyboard commands for actually using the operating system probably won't 
be around for that long.


This is why I think it's going to fall into  either using a keyboard for 
specialist text in put, dictation or touch screen.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Also, I think that if the touch screen is to be made the default input 
device, I think screen readers have got to step up their imagining of how 
a blind person would input text into the touch screen. Sure, braille 
input is nice, but let's face a little bitty fact, braille is slower than 
typing. A lot slower.


Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com 
wrote:


Hi Shaun,

That may be so, but we all know mainstream consumer products isn't
concerned with accessibility for blind consumers. That keyboard which
may in deed be the best access for a blind consumer is quickly and
rapidly vanishing from the consumer space and is now a optional device
rather than a mandatory one. Now days touchscreens are the primary
input device for smartphones, laptops, tablets, and several other
devices.
So don't get to attached to your keyboard because I don't see it
lasting for that much longer outside of an office environment.




On 3/28/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
I agree, for us blinks, the best access is a keyboard, and that means
a computer at least  for now.
as voice recognition gets better that may become another big form,
touch I am not sure about.



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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Hi Tim.

well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was just what 
I wanted.


for your information I was getting that from many people I know at 
university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and touch 
type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for some reason 
usually do not.


Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed that part. 
indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful judgements about you 
the way you do about me I might claime that perhaps you like feeling 
superior to others by reading their messages selectively so that you can 
accuse them of being sheltered or not knowing very many sighted people 
to make yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your motivations or 
experience I won't.


Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread tim

You must not know to many sighted people, because only those that 
don't use computers peck at the keyboard. I can do from 120 to 180 
words a min and i have ran into even kids, teens and adults that can 
do higher than that. So looks like your very sheltered when it comes 
to knowing what the sighted can and can't do or you just only observe 
only what you want about the sighted. Kind of like selective hearing for some.


At 04:11 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:

Hi Kara.

what I meant is that most sighted people do not naturally touch 
type, they look at the keyboard and push individual keys with a 
couple of fingers. Obviously this is not to say all certainly 
anyone who has worked in a job revolving aroun taking dictation will 
have the skills to do it including touch typing, it's just that your 
average sighted person doesn't.


This means that for a sighted person, an on screen touch screen 
keyboard and an actual keyboard aren't that different, and they'd 
use them the same way, just point and press, which is why as I said 
I see keyboards becoming a more specialist thing in the future, not 
a standard input device, but not something that will entirely be 
replaced by touch screens either sinse touch typing will still be 
the fastest way of typing an making notes.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



HI Dark,

You said:

most sighted people cannot actually touch type at anything like a 
respectable speed, they just peer at the keys and press so aren't 
that much slower than with a conventional keyboard


What do you mean about sighted people not being able to touch-type quickly?

Am I completely misunderstanding you here?

Thanks bunches!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:38 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

That is why I use dictation.

the problem however devin is most sighted people cannot actually 
touch type at anything like a respectable speed, they just peer at 
the keys and press so aren't that much slower than with a 
conventional keyboard.


I suspect keyboards will always be around in some form, even if 
just for taking notes or secretarial jobs simply because an 
accomplished typist will always be faster than someone using a 
touch screen, though as on ios, keyboard commands for actually 
using the operating system probably won't be around for that long.


This is why I think it's going to fall into  either using a 
keyboard for specialist text in put, dictation or touch screen.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Also, I think that if the touch screen is to be made the default 
input device, I think screen readers have got to step up their 
imagining of how a blind person would input text into the touch 
screen. Sure, braille input is nice, but let's face a little bitty 
fact, braille is slower than typing. A lot slower.


Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 28, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Shaun,

That may be so, but we all know mainstream consumer products isn't
concerned with accessibility for blind consumers. That keyboard which
may in deed be the best access for a blind consumer is quickly and
rapidly vanishing from the consumer space and is now a optional device
rather than a mandatory one. Now days touchscreens are the primary
input device for smartphones, laptops, tablets, and several other
devices.
So don't get to attached to your keyboard because I don't see it
lasting for that much longer outside of an office environment.




On 3/28/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
I agree, for us blinks, the best access is a keyboard, and that means
a computer at least  for now.
as voice recognition gets better that may become another big form,
touch I am not sure about.


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All messages

Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread Josh K

yes I certainly do like my laptop. and on the back of it I have a
connector so if I want to connect a big pc monitor I can do so.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982

On 3/31/2015 8:54 PM, Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Cara,

I tend to agree with you about desktops. For many years I was in the
business of PC building, assembling custom desktops, but that market
has all but disappeared. Nobody really wants desktops now that laptops
are A, much smaller, B, just as powerful, and C, are affordable. For
an independent contractor it is impossible to custom build laptops for
the price of a low cost Del or Toshiba laptop. So I've left that
business behind since for all intents and purposes it isn't really
profitable.

One doesn't have to go far to see that desktops have largely fallen
out of favor. One can just walk into any Walmart or Best Buy in the
U.S. and see right off what desktops they have, if any, are few and
far between. The other day I was in Walmart and basically the desktops
they had on hand was an extremely small CPU case, flatscreen monitor,
keyboard, and mouse. Not only was it small the system specs were no
better than the laptops they had in the next isle over for about the
same price. So I don't see the majority of home users, your average
Joe's and Jane's, buying many desktops when for all intents and
purposes laptops provide everything for a similar cost. If they need
an external keyboard, mouse, or a larger display all those can easily
be purchased for their laptop as an additional device.

Thing is I know many blind users are part and partial to their
desktops, and that is okay. However, long term though we will see them
being phased out of the mainstream market and I'd say only being sold
to businesses or special interest groups with laptops handling the
majority of PC work for the average household.

Cheers!

On 3/31/15, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote:

Hi Josh, that sounds like an awesome racing game to be sure. :)

The laptop I was mentioning which belongs to a friend is actually much
higher specced than that, so make no mistake that laptops can perform like
this.

His machine is designed to run the most current intensive industry-standard
image rendering software. Previously this level of software needed to be run
on machines like the Mac Pro etc.

Check out Alienware. You can completely custom-build a laptop from them
which can be quite something.

http://www.alienware.com/Landings/laptops.aspx?ST=new%20alienware%20m14xdgc=STcid=245947lid=4238044acd=123098073120560

Of course though, obviously,since desktops can be customized as well, as you
say, there will be people who wish to do that. -Nothing wrong with that! :)

Please understand, I am not saying anything personally against desktops, :)
it's just that I think we will be seeing a lot less production /
availability of desktop hardware. In fact, this is already happening in the
mainstream.

Have an awesome night and do share more about the racing game if you like. I
totally dug 3D driving games when I could see.

Cheers!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread tim

Well guess your type of education is a lot different then ours in the 
states, because if you can't type you don't go far in most jobs. Yes, 
I do know a lot of sighted people the world is full of them if you 
haven't noticed, but I don't make assumptions about them or act like 
they are beneath my education. but you degrade any that has a opinion 
that is different or not as yours.


At 08:22 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:

Hi Tim.

well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was 
just what I wanted.


for your information I was getting that from many people I know at 
university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and 
touch type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for 
some reason usually do not.


Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed 
that part. indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful 
judgements about you the way you do about me I might claime that 
perhaps you like feeling superior to others by reading their 
messages selectively so that you can accuse them of being 
sheltered or not knowing very many sighted people to make 
yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your motivations or 
experience I won't.


Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Also bare in mind I didn't say Sighted people canot type only that a large 
number of sighted people do not touch type at a high speed.




All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread Darren Harris

I think you will find that The world does not start and end with the United 
States. And may come as a shock to some people but it is true nevertheless. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On 1 Apr 2015, at 13:58, tim z200...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Well guess your type of education is a lot different then ours in the states, 
 because if you can't type you don't go far in most jobs. Yes, I do know a lot 
 of sighted people the world is full of them if you haven't noticed, but I 
 don't make assumptions about them or act like they are beneath my education. 
 but you degrade any that has a opinion that is different or not as yours.
 
 At 08:22 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:
 Hi Tim.
 
 well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was just what 
 I wanted.
 
 for your information I was getting that from many people I know at 
 university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and touch 
 type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for some reason 
 usually do not.
 
 Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed that part. 
 indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful judgements about you 
 the way you do about me I might claime that perhaps you like feeling 
 superior to others by reading their messages selectively so that you can 
 accuse them of being sheltered or not knowing very many sighted people 
 to make yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your motivations or 
 experience I won't.
 
 Dark.
 
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Hi Tim,

A word if I might. I think this is a case in point where you and Dark
are both right. As both of you have raised very valid points, but are
on the verge of insulting each other over what are essentially two
differing viewpoints that are equally valid in some cases.

Yes, it is true that here in the States that anyone seeking an office
job etc would have troubles finding work if they aren't a decent
typist. However, that assumes someone is attempting to be employed in
an office setting and need to use a computer for his or her
employment. As you also know there are many jobs that do not involve
regular use of a computer such as a fast food worker flipping burgers
at a hamburger restaurant or perhaps someone working at some
manufacturing job. In such cases the person may or may not have decent
typing skills. As a result what Dark says makes sense.

As it so happens I have observed many times the very tendency Dark
mentions. I have met my fair share of sighted people who sit and peck
at their keyboard rather than actually typing. They use their pointer
finger and search around letter by letter and peck at the keys one by
one to type which is obviously extremely slow and inefficient. Be that
as it may for them using a touchscreen and touch typing probably isn't
any less efficient since they in all likely hood never learned to
properly type on a computer at school, college, or wherever they got
their education.

My point being is your point seems to be based on jobs solely in the
office type environment where typing skills are mandatory, but ignores
the millions of workers who have never needed to learn to type who are
employed in factories, restaurants, etc.  Those people who don't know
how to type do exactly what Dark says and point and peck at their
keyboards or their phones to type messages because they have never
learned any different.

Cheers!


On 4/1/15, tim z200...@gmail.com wrote:
 Well guess your type of education is a lot different then ours in the
 states, because if you can't type you don't go far in most jobs. Yes,
 I do know a lot of sighted people the world is full of them if you
 haven't noticed, but I don't make assumptions about them or act like
 they are beneath my education. but you degrade any that has a opinion
 that is different or not as yours.


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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

My Father was not a good typist at all, yet he made good money.  He was a 
heavy duty construction machine operator for over 20 years in Phoenix, 
Arizona, an.  This shows that everyone does not need to be able to type or 
to have a computer education to make a living, even in today's society.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: tim z200...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Well guess your type of education is a lot different then ours in the 
states, because if you can't type you don't go far in most jobs. Yes, I do 
know a lot of sighted people the world is full of them if you haven't 
noticed, but I don't make assumptions about them or act like they are 
beneath my education. but you degrade any that has a opinion that is 
different or not as yours.


At 08:22 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:

Hi Tim.

well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was just 
what I wanted.


for your information I was getting that from many people I know at 
university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and touch 
type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for some reason 
usually do not.


Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed that 
part. indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful judgements 
about you the way you do about me I might claime that perhaps you like 
feeling superior to others by reading their messages selectively so that 
you can accuse them of being sheltered or not knowing very many sighted 
people to make yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your 
motivations or experience I won't.


Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread Bryan Peterson


Or do, D O and due, D U E.



Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
-Original Message- 
From: Charles Rivard

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 6:07 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Part of it is due to texting so often.  In the case of blind people, I think
a lot has to do with not reading braille and just relying on speech.  They
don't know the difference between two, to, too, and 2.

As for the typing rate, I found it strange once I started doing work there,
because we were expected to keep up with the rate at which customers gave us
their credit card numbers.  Most of the time, they rattled them off fairly
quickly.  I would have thought that 40 was a more reasonable requirement.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



Hi Charles,

Only 20 words a minute? I am surprised any place would have such a low
requirement. Most places I've ever applied for wanted at least 40
words a minute bare minimum, and required accurate spelling. Something
I'm afraid I don't see a lot of these days. I don't know if it is pure
laziness, people don't care, but I notice that a lot of people simply
can't spell when posting messages to mailing lists. Sure everyone
makes a mistake or two, but some are way beyond that.



On 4/1/15, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote:
A lot of people who use computers use the hunt and peck method because 
they


didn't learn touch typing when they were in school.  I know this for a 
fact,


because the requirement to work at a major credit card company for which 
I
was employed was that you had to type 20 words per minute.  Some people 
had


a hard time meeting this requirement, while I typed at about 45 words per
minute.  When using my iPhone's touch screen QWERTY keyboard, I am 
nowhere

near that fast.  There certainly is a difference.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished,


you! really! are! finished!


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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

2015-04-01 Thread Jim Kitchen


Hi,

I just wanted to thank the Cleveland Sight Center and specifically Anna who 
taught me how to type.  I did the hunt and peck for ten years before that.  
Anna also taught me braille and made sure that my braille reference guide 
program was all correct.

BFN

Jim

If I could type, I'd be a great groprammer !

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Hi Tom.

Your probably correct that as people learn typing in  school, the  hunt and 
peck as you call it type of thing will drop out of favour, though unless 
someone is a professional and needs to take dictation or frequently  type 
long peaces of work how long it will continue and whether someone would just 
go back to what is for sighted people the more natural method of looking at 
the keys I don't know.


Either way, my point was just that this is probably   one area where the 
touch screen phone system would be equal to a keyboard for most people,   
indeed with the   increasing frequency of text short, abbreviated speech and 
such I do wonder if things are perhaps going a bit far ther other way.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



Hi Dark,

Well, if it makes you feel any better I have observed much of the same
behavior over here in the States. Back when I was a college student in
the late 90's I use to do computer tech support and while I'd expect
most college students to have some degree of typing skills quite a few
did not. Many of them were very slow because they took their first
finger and pointed and pecked at keys. I would hope that many of those
probably later on took a typing class to learn to type properly at
some point as it would be very difficult to type out a long paper with
those kinds of typing skills, but be that as it may just because
someone is a student of a college or university does not naturally
make a student a good typist. Especially, if they have always just
hunted and pecked at keys for short e-mails and chatting on Facebook
etc.

What's more there is another angle which should be mentioned. There
are a lot of older people now getting computers to stay in touch with
their kids and grandchildren through Facebook, Twitter, e-mail,
whatever. Many of them may have had no long term exposure to a
computer so may or may not have good typing skills either. So do
whatever seems easiest to them which is the old hunt and peck method.
I've observed it off and on the last few years so I know the issue you
described does exist, and it is not specific to any country and is not
necessarily the failure of any specific education system.

This is only a guess on my part but I think what Tim is describing are
professionals and semi-professionals who learned to type through
school, college, or somewhere else and of course uses those skills in
office related jobs. I can't speak for him since I don't really know
him, but he does make a point that typing is frequently offered here
in the States through high school and so forth and it is something
everyone really should  know. So I suspect that due to the
availability of typing classes in most schools as an elective the
number of people who hunt and peck are probably slowly but surely
being replaced by people who can actually type.



On 4/1/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Tim.

well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was just 
what


I wanted.

for your information I was getting that from many people I know at
university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and touch
type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for some reason
usually do not.

Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed that 
part.


indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful judgements about 
you

the way you do about me I might claime that perhaps you like feeling
superior to others by reading their messages selectively so that you can
accuse them of being sheltered or not knowing very many sighted 
people
to make yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your motivations 
or


experience I won't.

Dark.


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You

Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Odd that you mention the number pad.  I never used it until I started 
working there.  Someone asked me why I didn't use it, and I said that I 
didn't use it because I just never had worked with it before.  Over my lunch 
period, I experimented and learned to use it.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



Hi Charles,

As to your first point I think it is a combination of issues. One of
them being education. Yes, it is true a lot of younger blind people,
particularly millennials,who don't read braille and may not know how
to spell well due to a tendency to rely too much on speech software.
However, even so regardless of the issue of speech verses braille I do
think we can blame the school they went to for not passing on a solid
foundation in spelling, grammar, and knowing the difference between
various words that sound alike but have different meanings.

The reason I say that is when I was in school I do clearly remember
the teachers teaching us the difference between to, too, and two and
other words like that which sound the same but have different
spellings and meanings. I recall we had these worksheets in English
class where we had to fill in the blank with the correct word and its
proper spelling. Either they no longer do this any more or many people
have failed to retain the knowledge, but it is clearly an educational
problem rather than a lack of braille literacy. After all I don't read
braille myself, but I definitely know the difference between words
like to, too, and two because it was taught to me in school at a
fairly early age.

In any case 20 words a minute is definitely a slow typing speed. As
you say taking down information over the phone such as credit card
numbers requires some fast typing so 40 words a minute should be a
bare minimum for that sort of job. Thanks be to number pads on
keyboards designed for fast entry of cred it card info, eh?



On 4/1/15, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote:
Part of it is due to texting so often.  In the case of blind people, I 
think


a lot has to do with not reading braille and just relying on speech. 
They

don't know the difference between two, to, too, and 2.

As for the typing rate, I found it strange once I started doing work 
there,


because we were expected to keep up with the rate at which customers gave 
us


their credit card numbers.  Most of the time, they rattled them off 
fairly

quickly.  I would have thought that 40 was a more reasonable requirement.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished,


you! really! are! finished!


---
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Hi Dark,

Well, if it makes you feel any better I have observed much of the same
behavior over here in the States. Back when I was a college student in
the late 90's I use to do computer tech support and while I'd expect
most college students to have some degree of typing skills quite a few
did not. Many of them were very slow because they took their first
finger and pointed and pecked at keys. I would hope that many of those
probably later on took a typing class to learn to type properly at
some point as it would be very difficult to type out a long paper with
those kinds of typing skills, but be that as it may just because
someone is a student of a college or university does not naturally
make a student a good typist. Especially, if they have always just
hunted and pecked at keys for short e-mails and chatting on Facebook
etc.

What's more there is another angle which should be mentioned. There
are a lot of older people now getting computers to stay in touch with
their kids and grandchildren through Facebook, Twitter, e-mail,
whatever. Many of them may have had no long term exposure to a
computer so may or may not have good typing skills either. So do
whatever seems easiest to them which is the old hunt and peck method.
I've observed it off and on the last few years so I know the issue you
described does exist, and it is not specific to any country and is not
necessarily the failure of any specific education system.

This is only a guess on my part but I think what Tim is describing are
professionals and semi-professionals who learned to type through
school, college, or somewhere else and of course uses those skills in
office related jobs. I can't speak for him since I don't really know
him, but he does make a point that typing is frequently offered here
in the States through high school and so forth and it is something
everyone really should  know. So I suspect that due to the
availability of typing classes in most schools as an elective the
number of people who hunt and peck are probably slowly but surely
being replaced by people who can actually type.



On 4/1/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tim.

 well thank you for that unwarranted judgement about myself, it was just what

 I wanted.

 for your information I was getting that from many people I know at
 university, who you would expect would have good typing speeds and touch
 type due to the need of having to write typed work, but for some reason
 usually do not.

 Also, I will remind you I said some not all, maybe you missed that part.

 indeed if I were inclined to make similarly unhelpful judgements about you
 the way you do about me I might claime that perhaps you like feeling
 superior to others by reading their messages selectively so that you can
 accuse them of being sheltered or not knowing very many sighted people
 to make yourself feel superior, but as I have no idea of your motivations or

 experience I won't.

 Dark.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
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 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Hi Charles,

As to your first point I think it is a combination of issues. One of
them being education. Yes, it is true a lot of younger blind people,
particularly millennials,who don't read braille and may not know how
to spell well due to a tendency to rely too much on speech software.
However, even so regardless of the issue of speech verses braille I do
think we can blame the school they went to for not passing on a solid
foundation in spelling, grammar, and knowing the difference between
various words that sound alike but have different meanings.

The reason I say that is when I was in school I do clearly remember
the teachers teaching us the difference between to, too, and two and
other words like that which sound the same but have different
spellings and meanings. I recall we had these worksheets in English
class where we had to fill in the blank with the correct word and its
proper spelling. Either they no longer do this any more or many people
have failed to retain the knowledge, but it is clearly an educational
problem rather than a lack of braille literacy. After all I don't read
braille myself, but I definitely know the difference between words
like to, too, and two because it was taught to me in school at a
fairly early age.

In any case 20 words a minute is definitely a slow typing speed. As
you say taking down information over the phone such as credit card
numbers requires some fast typing so 40 words a minute should be a
bare minimum for that sort of job. Thanks be to number pads on
keyboards designed for fast entry of cred it card info, eh?



On 4/1/15, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote:
 Part of it is due to texting so often.  In the case of blind people, I think

 a lot has to do with not reading braille and just relying on speech.  They
 don't know the difference between two, to, too, and 2.

 As for the typing rate, I found it strange once I started doing work there,

 because we were expected to keep up with the rate at which customers gave us

 their credit card numbers.  Most of the time, they rattled them off fairly
 quickly.  I would have thought that 40 was a more reasonable requirement.

 ---
 Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,

 you! really! are! finished!

---
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Part of it is due to texting so often.  In the case of blind people, I think 
a lot has to do with not reading braille and just relying on speech.  They 
don't know the difference between two, to, too, and 2.


As for the typing rate, I found it strange once I started doing work there, 
because we were expected to keep up with the rate at which customers gave us 
their credit card numbers.  Most of the time, they rattled them off fairly 
quickly.  I would have thought that 40 was a more reasonable requirement.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



Hi Charles,

Only 20 words a minute? I am surprised any place would have such a low
requirement. Most places I've ever applied for wanted at least 40
words a minute bare minimum, and required accurate spelling. Something
I'm afraid I don't see a lot of these days. I don't know if it is pure
laziness, people don't care, but I notice that a lot of people simply
can't spell when posting messages to mailing lists. Sure everyone
makes a mistake or two, but some are way beyond that.



On 4/1/15, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote:
A lot of people who use computers use the hunt and peck method because 
they


didn't learn touch typing when they were in school.  I know this for a 
fact,


because the requirement to work at a major credit card company for which 
I
was employed was that you had to type 20 words per minute.  Some people 
had


a hard time meeting this requirement, while I typed at about 45 words per
minute.  When using my iPhone's touch screen QWERTY keyboard, I am 
nowhere

near that fast.  There certainly is a difference.

---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're 
finished,


you! really! are! finished!


---
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Screen readers make a mess of the textish gibberish, too.  In Emails, 
actually typing out the words, literally, makes more sense, as there isn't 
any need for brevity.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



Hi Dark,

Yeah, I don't know how long the hunt and peck method of input will
last either, but I agree with your point that for those sorts of
people using a touchscreen probably isn't much different. One hunt and
peck system is probably as good as another. Its only the professional
and semi-professionals who know how to type who will notice the
difference in speed and efficiency.

As for the word abbreviations textspeak, netspeak, etc whatever you
want to call that too is also a factor. Since people can't type or
simply don't want to type out fully formed words on Facebook, Twitter,
and other social media I suspect we are going to see a lot more of
that besides the usual things like oic, lol, brb, etc. As long as
people confine it to their Twitter feed or Facebook page I don't mind
as much, but when I see it in e-mail posts that is when I get a bit
annoyed since I'd like people to actually spell words rather than
trying to read sentences composed of gibberish.

In any case your point is a good one. With the lack of formal training
in typing, people's tendencies these days to shorten everything to
three and four letter abbreviations, I suspect many sighted people
probably don't notice a difference in using a touchscreen over the use
of a full sized keyboard the way a blind person would.



On 4/1/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Tom.

Your probably correct that as people learn typing in  school, the  hunt 
and


peck as you call it type of thing will drop out of favour, though unless
someone is a professional and needs to take dictation or frequently  type
long peaces of work how long it will continue and whether someone would 
just


go back to what is for sighted people the more natural method of looking 
at


the keys I don't know.

Either way, my point was just that this is probably   one area where the
touch screen phone system would be equal to a keyboard for most 
people, 


indeed with the   increasing frequency of text short, abbreviated speech 
and


such I do wonder if things are perhaps going a bit far ther other way.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


---
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Hi Charles,

Only 20 words a minute? I am surprised any place would have such a low
requirement. Most places I've ever applied for wanted at least 40
words a minute bare minimum, and required accurate spelling. Something
I'm afraid I don't see a lot of these days. I don't know if it is pure
laziness, people don't care, but I notice that a lot of people simply
can't spell when posting messages to mailing lists. Sure everyone
makes a mistake or two, but some are way beyond that.



On 4/1/15, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote:
 A lot of people who use computers use the hunt and peck method because they

 didn't learn touch typing when they were in school.  I know this for a fact,

 because the requirement to work at a major credit card company for which I
 was employed was that you had to type 20 words per minute.  Some people had

 a hard time meeting this requirement, while I typed at about 45 words per
 minute.  When using my iPhone's touch screen QWERTY keyboard, I am nowhere
 near that fast.  There certainly is a difference.

 ---
 Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished,

 you! really! are! finished!

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I don't know how long the hunt and peck method of input will
last either, but I agree with your point that for those sorts of
people using a touchscreen probably isn't much different. One hunt and
peck system is probably as good as another. Its only the professional
and semi-professionals who know how to type who will notice the
difference in speed and efficiency.

As for the word abbreviations textspeak, netspeak, etc whatever you
want to call that too is also a factor. Since people can't type or
simply don't want to type out fully formed words on Facebook, Twitter,
and other social media I suspect we are going to see a lot more of
that besides the usual things like oic, lol, brb, etc. As long as
people confine it to their Twitter feed or Facebook page I don't mind
as much, but when I see it in e-mail posts that is when I get a bit
annoyed since I'd like people to actually spell words rather than
trying to read sentences composed of gibberish.

In any case your point is a good one. With the lack of formal training
in typing, people's tendencies these days to shorten everything to
three and four letter abbreviations, I suspect many sighted people
probably don't notice a difference in using a touchscreen over the use
of a full sized keyboard the way a blind person would.



On 4/1/15, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 Your probably correct that as people learn typing in  school, the  hunt and

 peck as you call it type of thing will drop out of favour, though unless
 someone is a professional and needs to take dictation or frequently  type
 long peaces of work how long it will continue and whether someone would just

 go back to what is for sighted people the more natural method of looking at

 the keys I don't know.

 Either way, my point was just that this is probably   one area where the
 touch screen phone system would be equal to a keyboard for most people, 

 indeed with the   increasing frequency of text short, abbreviated speech and

 such I do wonder if things are perhaps going a bit far ther other way.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?

A lot of people who use computers use the hunt and peck method because they 
didn't learn touch typing when they were in school.  I know this for a fact, 
because the requirement to work at a major credit card company for which I 
was employed was that you had to type 20 words per minute.  Some people had 
a hard time meeting this requirement, while I typed at about 45 words per 
minute.  When using my iPhone's touch screen QWERTY keyboard, I am nowhere 
near that fast.  There certainly is a difference.


---
Be positive!  When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, 
you! really! are! finished!
- Original Message - 
From: tim z200...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


You must not know to many sighted people, because only those that don't 
use computers peck at the keyboard. I can do from 120 to 180 words a min 
and i have ran into even kids, teens and adults that can do higher than 
that. So looks like your very sheltered when it comes to knowing what the 
sighted can and can't do or you just only observe only what you want about 
the sighted. Kind of like selective hearing for some.


At 04:11 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote:

Hi Kara.

what I meant is that most sighted people do not naturally touch type, they 
look at the keyboard and push individual keys with a couple of fingers. 
Obviously this is not to say all certainly anyone who has worked in a 
job revolving aroun taking dictation will have the skills to do it 
including touch typing, it's just that your average sighted person 
doesn't.


This means that for a sighted person, an on screen touch screen keyboard 
and an actual keyboard aren't that different, and they'd use them the same 
way, just point and press, which is why as I said I see keyboards becoming 
a more specialist thing in the future, not a standard input device, but 
not something that will entirely be replaced by touch screens either sinse 
touch typing will still be the fastest way of typing an making notes.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?



HI Dark,

You said:

most sighted people cannot actually touch type at anything like a 
respectable speed, they just peer at the keys and press so aren't that 
much slower than with a conventional keyboard


What do you mean about sighted people not being able to touch-type 
quickly?


Am I completely misunderstanding you here?

Thanks bunches!

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

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On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:38 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

That is why I use dictation.

the problem however devin is most sighted people cannot actually touch 
type at anything like a respectable speed, they just peer at the keys and 
press so aren't that much slower than with a conventional keyboard.


I suspect keyboards will always be around in some form, even if just for 
taking notes or secretarial jobs simply because an accomplished typist 
will always be faster than someone using a touch screen, though as on 
ios, keyboard commands for actually using the operating system probably 
won't be around for that long.


This is why I think it's going to fall into  either using a keyboard for 
specialist text in put, dictation or touch screen.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - From: Devin Prater 
r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?


Also, I think that if the touch screen is to be made the default input 
device, I think screen readers have got to step up their imagining of 
how a blind person would input text into the touch screen. Sure, braille 
input is nice, but let's face a little bitty fact, braille is slower 
than typing. A lot slower.


Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com 
wrote:


Hi Shaun,

That may be so, but we all know mainstream consumer products isn't
concerned with accessibility for blind consumers. That keyboard which
may in deed be the best access for a blind consumer is quickly and
rapidly vanishing from the consumer space and is now a optional device
rather than a mandatory one. Now days touchscreens are the primary
input device for smartphones, laptops, tablets, and several other
devices.
So don't get to attached to your keyboard because I don't see it
lasting for that much longer outside of an office environment.




On 3/28/15, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
I agree, for us blinks, the best access is a keyboard, and that means
a computer at least  for now.
as voice recognition gets better

Re: [Audyssey] xbox accessibility?