Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Jamie Coady]

hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn 
programming and also the programme its self please thanks
- Original Message - 
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] game development


> Hi,
>
> Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may 
> be
> easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x
> features are.
>
> Josh
>
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> AOL: kutztownstudent
> skype: jkenn337
>
>
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> visit
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> any subscription changes via the web.
> 



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Charles Rivard]

For some programming, you will need to know and use punctuation.  Starting 
to work on it now, in every day use, will help a great deal.
--
If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jamie Coady" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Gamers Discussion list" 

Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


> hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn
> programming and also the programme its self please thanks
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 PM
> Subject: [Audyssey] game development
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may
>> be
>> easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x
>> features are.
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> AOL: kutztownstudent
>> skype: jkenn337
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> visit
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
>> any subscription changes via the web.
>>
>
>
>
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> visit
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> any subscription changes via the web.
> 



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[shaun everiss]

moosic is the only game so far.
At 06:58 a.m. 30/05/2007, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may be 
>easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x 
>features are.
>
>Josh
>
>email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>AOL: kutztownstudent
>skype: jkenn337
>
>
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>http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
>any subscription changes via the web.
>
>
>
>-- 
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.1/822 - Release Date: 28/05/2007 
>11:40 a.m.



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.1/822 - Release Date: 28/05/2007 11:40 
a.m.



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[damien c. sadler - head of x-sight interactive]

descent into madness seems to be run off python.

regards,

damien




- Original Message - 
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] game development


> Hi,
>
> Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may 
> be
> easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x
> features are.
>
> Josh
>
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> AOL: kutztownstudent
> skype: jkenn337
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can 
> visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web. 


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Sean Mealin]

Hi;
Check out:
http://www.blindprogramming.com
They have some tutorials to get you started; but they are a bit out of date.
What you most likely want is C#, VB2005, or C++.

C# is easy to work with; it is from Microsoft. It has a small learning
curve, but all programming languages do. It is really well supported by
DirectX; the library that handles playing sounds.

Visual basic is also by Microsoft; it has more keywords rather than symbols,
such as C# or C++. It is not as supported by DirectX, but a lot of the
accessible game developers use it anyway.

C++ is the most difficult language; it gives you a lot of power, and a lot
of chances to really mess up. It is the language that video game developers
use.

DirectX is by Microsoft; it is not a language but a set of libraries that
help pan, fade and play sounds. It can do much more; it has libraries for
input, sound, and video. It also has a networking component.

You can get C# or Visual Basic compilers (a compiler turns code in to an
executable) from Microsoft's website.

Please ask any more questions if you have them.

Sean
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jamie Coady
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:47 PM
To: Josh; Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development

hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn 
programming and also the programme its self please thanks
- Original Message - 
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] game development


> Hi,
>
> Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may 
> be
> easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x
> features are.
>
> Josh
>
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> AOL: kutztownstudent
> skype: jkenn337
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can 
> visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
> 



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Jamie Coady]

thanks i will give it a go smile.
- Original Message - 
From: "Sean Mealin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" ; "'Josh'" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


> Hi;
> Check out:
> http://www.blindprogramming.com
> They have some tutorials to get you started; but they are a bit out of 
> date.
> What you most likely want is C#, VB2005, or C++.
>
> C# is easy to work with; it is from Microsoft. It has a small learning
> curve, but all programming languages do. It is really well supported by
> DirectX; the library that handles playing sounds.
>
> Visual basic is also by Microsoft; it has more keywords rather than 
> symbols,
> such as C# or C++. It is not as supported by DirectX, but a lot of the
> accessible game developers use it anyway.
>
> C++ is the most difficult language; it gives you a lot of power, and a lot
> of chances to really mess up. It is the language that video game 
> developers
> use.
>
> DirectX is by Microsoft; it is not a language but a set of libraries that
> help pan, fade and play sounds. It can do much more; it has libraries for
> input, sound, and video. It also has a networking component.
>
> You can get C# or Visual Basic compilers (a compiler turns code in to an
> executable) from Microsoft's website.
>
> Please ask any more questions if you have them.
>
> Sean
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jamie Coady
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:47 PM
> To: Josh; Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development
>
> hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn
> programming and also the programme its self please thanks
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 PM
> Subject: [Audyssey] game development
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Has anyone developed an audio game using python? It seems like python may
>> be
>> easier to use than visual basic. But I don't know how good its direct-x
>> features are.
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> AOL: kutztownstudent
>> skype: jkenn337
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
>> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
>> visit
>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
>> any subscription changes via the web.
>>
>
>
>
> ___
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> visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
>
>
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> any subscription changes via the web.
> 



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Charles,
Right. Seriously everyone, languages such as C++ have strict punctuation 
rules that must be followed, or the app will not even compile let alone run.
Strings of text must be surrounded by quotation markes, end of lines 
must be terminated with cemmi-colens, commas are used to make logical 
line breaks, braces are used to start and end blocks of code, etc...
Most languages C++, C#, Java, etc use the same punctuation rules so it 
is necesary to use them properly.

Charles Rivard wrote:
> For some programming, you will need to know and use punctuation.  Starting 
> to work on it now, in every day use, will help a great deal.
> --
> If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Jamie,
The best web service for programming  education out there is
http://safari.oreilly.com

Jamie Coady wrote:
> hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn 
> programming and also the programme its self please thanks
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Jamie Coady]

Thanks I will give it a go. Thanks

- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


> Hi Jamie,
> The best web service for programming  education out there is
> http://safari.oreilly.com
>
> Jamie Coady wrote:
>> hi know any one know of where i can get tutoriels to help me learn
>> programming and also the programme its self please thanks
>>
>
>
> ___
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> visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
> 



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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Jim Kitchen]

Hi Thomas,

Yes, actually all programming languages even Basic have strict punctuation and 
spelling rules.

BFN

 Jim

C programmers don't have the BASIC instincts.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Davy Kager]

Even though it's a strict language I do really like C++ (and Visual C++ 8, 
which is used to build your programs).
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


Hi Charles,
Right. Seriously everyone, languages such as C++ have strict punctuation
rules that must be followed, or the app will not even compile let alone run.
Strings of text must be surrounded by quotation markes, end of lines
must be terminated with cemmi-colens, commas are used to make logical
line breaks, braces are used to start and end blocks of code, etc...
Most languages C++, C#, Java, etc use the same punctuation rules so it
is necesary to use them properly.

Charles Rivard wrote:
> For some programming, you will need to know and use punctuation.  Starting
> to work on it now, in every day use, will help a great deal.
> --
> If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
>


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Davy,
yeah, C++ is probably my second favorite language. C# i nicer as it i 
les complicated, but I still do my fair share of C++ coding under Linux 
and C# for Windows.


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Davy Kager]

Oh, I want to say this in case someone is going to try out C++... I won't 
start with Visual Studio (the development environment), because it can drive 
one crazy with clueless errors. I'd start with some easier and less strict 
tool like Dev-C++, which is certainly not as powerful but still very nice. 
Maybe someone will find this useful when he/she reads it in the archives or 
whatever.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


Hi Davy,
yeah, C++ is probably my second favorite language. C# i nicer as it i
les complicated, but I still do my fair share of C++ coding under Linux
and C# for Windows.


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Davy,
Sometimes Visual C++ can generate clueless errors, but most of the time 
the errors make sense.  The thing is if you are first learning the 
fundimentals of C++ fine go and use Devc++, but it's not going to help 
you with the .NET libs which modern Windows apps now use.
Let's face it .NET Framework 2.0/3.0 is the reality, and older Windows 
APIs like MFC are in the toilet.


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Davy Kager]

I won't use any non-essential Windows stuff except from DirectX. So, I won't 
use .NET. Maybe later when it becomes even more common. Further, I found 
that when Dev-C++ can compile something it ain't necessarily perfect code. 
When I moved to Visual C++, my whole code became buggy. Now it'll compile 
warningless (which is great), but this might stop some beginners.
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] game development


Hi Davy,
Sometimes Visual C++ can generate clueless errors, but most of the time
the errors make sense.  The thing is if you are first learning the
fundimentals of C++ fine go and use Devc++, but it's not going to help
you with the .NET libs which modern Windows apps now use.
Let's face it .NET Framework 2.0/3.0 is the reality, and older Windows
APIs like MFC are in the toilet.


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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Scott Chesworth]

Out of interest, have you posted this question on audiogames.net?
There are a few developers who hang out there because they prefer
forums to mailing lists. Maybe one of them will throw another option
for you to consider.

Scott

On 2/23/15, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Well.
>
> I then don't have to deal with cros os, and trying to check, only cross
> browser.
>
> So will use html 5 and javascript, unless, some one else comes up with some
> thing better.
>
> Maybe asp dot net.
>
> If any one has developed a mobile web based game for the blind and the
> sighted.
>
> Would like to know about that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Marvin.
>
> ---
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Re: [Audyssey] game development

[Travis Siegel]

Devana is written using php and javascript.  It's accessible, and it's also 
opensource.  The version that's up for download needs some serious help to be 
100% accessible, but it's doable, it just takes a great deal of time tracking 
down all the places tags need to be added in the code to make it work properly.
However, it is possible, I made it happen with a previous version of the code.
The reasofn I mention that, is because with a hosted game like devana, making a 
mobile blind friendly version is as simple as having your app launch a web 
view, and connect to the server hosting the game, and, poof, instant accessible 
mobile version of your game.
Cheating, yes, I know, but that's exactly what some of the game developers do.

On Feb 22, 2015, at 7:00 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> Well.
> 
> I then don't have to deal with cros os, and trying to check, only cross
> browser.
> 
> So will use html 5 and javascript, unless, some one else comes up with some
> thing better.
> 
> Maybe asp dot net.
> 
> If any one has developed a mobile web based game for the blind and the
> sighted.
> 
> Would like to know about that.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Marvin.
> 
> ---
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> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


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Re: [Audyssey] game development questions

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Marvin,

I'm afraid you are going to have to get a lot more specific for anyone
to answer your questions here. To begin with what mobile platform or
platforms are you intending to target. Knowing this will greatly help
us give advice pertinent to your questions.

For example, you mention working with text to speech. The problem here
is that working with text to speech on iOS, Android, and Windows
Mobile are all completely different, no one size fits all solution, so
either you have to pick one specific platform to target or design a
wrapper around each text to speech API and trigger the right one
depending on which platform is being used.

Sound is similarly going to differ based on target platform. There
isn't a one size fits all solution here for audio API. At least not if
you are planning on using C#.

If you have to write a web based game I'd suggest Java using the Java
Sound API as it is better equipped for what you are trying to do. C#
is a great programming language, but it isn't the right tool for this
particular job. Java would be far more suited to this kind of project.
That said, if you have to use C# I'd say focus on Windows mobile as
that would be the proper environment for C# development.

Cheers!


On 2/19/15, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I am a blind programming student doing a certificate iv in programming from
> http://www.upskilled.edu.au and they use http://www.lynda.com video
> training, and they are redesigning their site for screen readers, and will
> be one of the beta testers, once they redesign.
>
> Okay, for one of my programming subjects, to do a mobile application.
>
> So working on and thinking about doing a web based accessible space
> invaders
> game.
>
> So I have visual studio 2013 community edition on windows 8.1 64 bit
> enterprise, running on a Toshiba satellite pro c-50-a machine.
>
> And using jaws 16 pro.
>
> So.
>
> I did have eyesight when I was younger.
>
> Just turned 50 last week.
>
> Now.
>
> I remember playing space invaders.
>
> So.
>
> How would I go about doing the sound, and also, a function to turn on the
> text to speech, as it needs to be web based, accessible on any mobile
> device, and also visually appealing to sighted users.
>
> Any ideas.
>
> Working my way through c #, and have just done the visual studio material.
>
> And then only wpf subject to get through, then to do the first subject in
> the programming cluster.
>
> First subject was research writing a research paper, and a procurement
> paper, and  three screen readers, jaws, nvda, window-eyes.
>
> And got a pass for that.
>
> Marvin.
>
> Ps: once handed up the first assignment, then will work through the next
> section, working with xml, then the mobile application subject.evaluated
>
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Re: [Audyssey] game development questions

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Marvin,


Hmm..I hadn't thought of that, but yes Javascript is definitely an
option here. I'm not a big fan of Javascript as a game programming
language, but it should do what you want it to do here. Although, I
can not claim to be any kind of expert with it as I only have limited
experience with it personally.

As for C# it is not necessary to put a space between the C and the
number sign. In fact it looks a little weird the way you have written
it since C# should be written with the C and number sign together as I
have written it.

Cheers!


On 2/21/15, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:
> Hi.
>
> Want to use any os or mobile platform
>
> Mike fox, who is on the progra...@freelists.org.
>
> Suggested I should do it html 5 and java script.
>
> So thinking of doing that.
>
> Did not think about java.
>
> Will ask my lectuer.
>
> Well.
>
> Yes, working my way through c # material.
>
> Completed the visual studio and c# materials.
>
> Then will do the first assignment,which will be a c # application.
>
> Then once done, will then work through the wpf materials, then assignment
> for that, then get to the mobile programming subject.
>
> So.
>
> Mike fox, suggested I do html 5 and java script.
>
> Which will get around, all issues.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Marvin.
>
> Ps: want to target any os, windows mobile,ios, android, linux, mac, even
> blackberry, as it will just use html 5 and java script.
>
> Apart from different browser settings, etc.
>
> So.
>
> How to make it accessible for the blind and visually impaired.
>
> He sent me a couple of games already floating around, and also a audio
> tutorial for the wrappers for audio for html 5.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Any other insights would be great.
>
> Will be web based, html 5, and java script, and can do this in visual
> studio
> community edition 2013.
>
> Will ask my lectuer, if it can be done in java.
>
> Do have some  with using java.
>
> And have got eclipse.
>
> Marvin.experience
>
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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[jamie coady]

how is the starwars games going
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:29 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> This list has been over this somewhat before but seriously I don't feel
> starting with autoit is the best suggestion. You may wonder why. Here is
> why I feel strongly against using autoit.
> First, off any seriously interested game developer worth a grain of
> sault must know and understand object oriented programming and design.
> All major programming languages weather we are talking C++, C#.NET,
> VB.NET, Java, etc work with objects, classes, etc... Sooner or later a
> new developer is going to have to learn it, and it might as be earlier
> than later.
> Second, autoit isn't a programming language per say so largely what you
> learn using it is basicly linked to autoit, and useless if you want to
> branch out and learn how to write a pro programming language, learn
> DirectX, and you wind up learning all over again from scratch. The time
> spent learning and working with autoit in my personal opinion is waisted.
> Third, learning a real full blown programming language for games has
> more flexable mainstream uses. You might be writing a couple of games,
> and decide you want to write your own mp3 player or wav recorder. You
> can do that, because you have a powerful language and compiler under
> your fingertips.
> Fourth, is similar to three, but this is to drive the point home. With
> autoit you are locked in to specific styles of games. With a full blown
> programming language you can do everything from text-based up to 3D audo
> FPS action games with online game play, etc...
> Fifth, while most PC owners still are largely MS Windows-based there is
> a slowly growing movement of sighted and blind folks who are now using
> alternative solutions such as Linux as well as FreeBSD, and some using
> Mac OS. With such a growing movement portability is likely going to
> become more important in the future.
> In fact, portability is one of the reasons I picked C#.NET as my
> development language for U.S.A. Games. At some point in the future I
> should be able to update my Sound.cs file with open source solutions
> like OpenAL, and run my games on Mac OS and Linux via Mono. I'm looking
> at porting STFC 2.0 to Linux right now, but have been busy with working
> on the core features of the game core to look in to portability.
> Anyway, why I am writing all this is I strongly feel a new developer
> needs to learn good coding and practices and skills right off rather
> than taking shortcuts like Autoit only to find  out in the end it wasn't
> really valuable or worth the time. Granted we all have different
> interests, tastes, and aspirations, but what I would like to see is the
> accessible game comunity to stop lingering in Autoit, VB 6, etc and
> begin to really get in to more complex concepts and put out some cutting
> edge stuff.
> I'm not saying this is going to happen at once, but the existing
> developers have sadly stopped pushing the edge of cutting edge gaming.
> We've got so many Space Invader type clones, but only a couple of FPS
> games like Shades of Doom, and SOD is still really a one of a kind. GMA
> Tank Commander was really the first awesome simulation combat game, but
> again nothing else has really come close to comparison. Why is this?
> Well, as I said a game developer has to start somewhere, and starting
> with something truly useful such as C#.NET or VB.NET right off will
> break the new developer in to a real programming language.  After that
> they'll have to practice with some simple games. Even a Space Invader
> Clone or two. However, after that he or she should be able to cut his or
> her teeth in to something more complex. Maybe a FPS game. After that
> work up to an online game.
> There is a progressiont to programming and a good developer is always
> learning, updating his or her skills, and is building more and more
> complex projects. Eventually, in 3 to 5 years he or she is ready to make
> games that are pretty advanced. All depending of course on the persons
> aptitude to learn. Not everyone can be a master, but many once they have
> a programming language well learned has the potential to go far. That
> potential is lost with substitutes like Autoit.
> Smile.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
>> oh rachel i never knew you wanted to develop. if you want any help i can
>> help you. i provide a starter pack for developers who wish to start off
>> simple using autoit - most people don't like that though - but i would
>> recommend that before starting something like vb or something more
>> complicated.
>>
>> you can visit my dev section at:
>>
>> http://x-sight.brandoncole.net/dev
>>
>> hth.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> damien
>>
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe sen

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Rachel D Keyte]

Hi Thomas, as I said in my intro, i'm a total no-nothing when it 
comes to all this, at the moment anyway. Lol
What are the differences in each of those program languages?  And 
what exactly is audoit?
and also, when exactly does it change from writing a visual game (for 
sighties) to the blindy games (audio)?  In other words, Do both types 
of games use the same program languages to a point, or are they 
completely different from the start?
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers! :)
At 10:29 AM 4/09/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Damien,
>This list has been over this somewhat before but seriously I don't feel
>starting with autoit is the best suggestion. You may wonder why. Here is
>why I feel strongly against using autoit.
>First, off any seriously interested game developer worth a grain of
>sault must know and understand object oriented programming and design.
>All major programming languages weather we are talking C++, C#.NET,
>VB.NET, Java, etc work with objects, classes, etc... Sooner or later a
>new developer is going to have to learn it, and it might as be earlier
>than later.
>Second, autoit isn't a programming language per say so largely what you
>learn using it is basicly linked to autoit, and useless if you want to
>branch out and learn how to write a pro programming language, learn
>DirectX, and you wind up learning all over again from scratch. The time
>spent learning and working with autoit in my personal opinion is waisted.
>Third, learning a real full blown programming language for games has
>more flexable mainstream uses. You might be writing a couple of games,
>and decide you want to write your own mp3 player or wav recorder. You
>can do that, because you have a powerful language and compiler under
>your fingertips.
>Fourth, is similar to three, but this is to drive the point home. With
>autoit you are locked in to specific styles of games. With a full blown
>programming language you can do everything from text-based up to 3D audo
>FPS action games with online game play, etc...
>Fifth, while most PC owners still are largely MS Windows-based there is
>a slowly growing movement of sighted and blind folks who are now using
>alternative solutions such as Linux as well as FreeBSD, and some using
>Mac OS. With such a growing movement portability is likely going to
>become more important in the future.
>In fact, portability is one of the reasons I picked C#.NET as my
>development language for U.S.A. Games. At some point in the future I
>should be able to update my Sound.cs file with open source solutions
>like OpenAL, and run my games on Mac OS and Linux via Mono. I'm looking
>at porting STFC 2.0 to Linux right now, but have been busy with working
>on the core features of the game core to look in to portability.
>Anyway, why I am writing all this is I strongly feel a new developer
>needs to learn good coding and practices and skills right off rather
>than taking shortcuts like Autoit only to find  out in the end it wasn't
>really valuable or worth the time. Granted we all have different
>interests, tastes, and aspirations, but what I would like to see is the
>accessible game comunity to stop lingering in Autoit, VB 6, etc and
>begin to really get in to more complex concepts and put out some cutting
>edge stuff.
>I'm not saying this is going to happen at once, but the existing
>developers have sadly stopped pushing the edge of cutting edge gaming.
>We've got so many Space Invader type clones, but only a couple of FPS
>games like Shades of Doom, and SOD is still really a one of a kind. GMA
>Tank Commander was really the first awesome simulation combat game, but
>again nothing else has really come close to comparison. Why is this?
>Well, as I said a game developer has to start somewhere, and starting
>with something truly useful such as C#.NET or VB.NET right off will
>break the new developer in to a real programming language.  After that
>they'll have to practice with some simple games. Even a Space Invader
>Clone or two. However, after that he or she should be able to cut his or
>her teeth in to something more complex. Maybe a FPS game. After that
>work up to an online game.
>There is a progressiont to programming and a good developer is always
>learning, updating his or her skills, and is building more and more
>complex projects. Eventually, in 3 to 5 years he or she is ready to make
>games that are pretty advanced. All depending of course on the persons
>aptitude to learn. Not everyone can be a master, but many once they have
>a programming language well learned has the potential to go far. That
>potential is lost with substitutes like Autoit.
>Smile.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>x-sight interactive wrote:
> > oh rachel i never knew you wanted to develop. if you want any help i can
> > help you. i provide a starter pack for developers who wish to start off
> > simple using autoit - most people don't like that though - but i would
> > recommend that before starting something like vb or something more
> > complicated.
> >
> > 

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Rachel,
O.K. I'll try and answer all your questions as best I can.
First, Autoit is, well, a tool kit which you can script and design 
simple type games. I suppose it would be alright for amature game 
design, and if your goals are not very advanced. However, it is 
extremely limited in what it can do, and so I don't recommend it on the 
grounds it isn't a programming language and it is very limiting.
Second, the only major difference between a audio game written by a 
blind developer and a vidio game written by sighted game companies is 
the lack of graphics. A Audio game developer such as myself writes games 
more-or-less exactly like Pro game developers  do however I don't 
include any graphics in my games, and don't have to worry about any 
programming that is involved  in rendering graphics to the screen, and 
making them look realistic. All I care about is rendering the audio instead.
Third, Professional game companies such as Activision, Microsoft Game 
Studios, etc largely write games in C++. It is a great language, but 
most blind developers stay away from it do to the learning curve 
involved with it. So allot of blind developers use VB, C#.NET, and VB.NET.
If we were interested in getting every ounce of hardware performence out 
of our computer to render 3D generated graphics C++ is by and large the 
language to use as it is good about not having breakup etc. With the 
.NET languages like C#.NET and VB.NET they run just a bit slower, and 
are not good for heavy vidio rendering
However, since we are mainly using audio performence is less an issue 
for use, and in my own use of C#.NET and VB.NET they perform quite well 
for games that use only audio and no vidio.
Forth, you asked about the differences between languages. Here is a 
quick run down of the common ones with pros and cons.

1. C++. It is a professional and industrial programming language used by 
every major game developer in the world.Good points:  is portable across 
several different operating systems, good system performence, well 
documented, can be object oriented, well supported, etc. Negative 
points:  is harder to learn, and takes allot of skill to use effectively.
2. VB, (Visual Basic 6.) Is widely used by blind developers. Good 
points: many find it easy to learn, the language is easy to understand, 
and many accessible games such as Jim Kichen's games were written in 
Visual Basic 6. Bad points: Microsoft is dropping support for Visual 
Basic 6 for VB.NET, the language is 8 years old, VB 6 compilers are 
harder to find, and is not fully object oriented.
3. C#.NET, (C-Sharp.) Is a brand new language from Microsoft. Good 
points: the language is much simplar than C++ to learn at the same time 
sharing many of the good qualities of C++, it is 100% object oriented 
which teaches you to think and code in that style of programming, it 
uses the .NET framework which is a great resource for doing many complex 
tasks, and do to it's object oriented design many tasks have been 
simplified by using the .NET framework. In fact, unlike many older 
languages C#.NET actually only has about 80 or 90 reserved key words to 
remember which makes the language quite small, and in fact it is really 
a higher language for interacting soully with the framework. Cause, 
C#.NET looks like C++ or Java once learned the skills from learning it 
will help you in learning other C-style languages like C++ or Java if 
you wished to go in to them. Finally, C#.NET apps in many cases can be 
compiled and run using the Linux and Mac OS .NET framework called mono. 
Leaving open a possability of making your program work on other 
operating systems besides Windows.
Bad points: there are a few things bad about the language. The first is 
it is totally dependant on the version of the  framework you are using 
to program with. If you want to redistribute your games, programs, you 
also must redistribute the framework as well in case they do not have it 
installed. If they have installed it via Windows update that end-user is 
probably alright, but most of the questions sent to U.S.A. Games have 
delt with people who didn't have the .NET framework or correct versions 
of the framework to properly install and play the games.
Also if you plan to sell games you will need to purchase an obfuscation 
tool which encrypts your game binary files to keep hackers from cracking 
your games.
4. VB.NET, (Visual Basic .NET.) I don't know how many game developers 
are using it, but it certainly can be used to write games. It in some 
ways is a bit easier to learn and understand than C#.NET, and has a bit 
of a VB look and feel to it. However, most of it's features are allot 
like C#.NET. It is largely based on the use of the .NET framework, is 
100% object oriented, and really has most of the same features listed 
for C#.NET.
Bad points: there isn't allot of game documentation associated for 
VB.NET and Microsoft DirectX 9 while DirectX 9 will work with VB.NET 
offers no sample c

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Rachel D Keyte]

Hi Thomas,
   thank you so much for your very detailed reply.  sounds like your 
more favourable of C#.net.  will have to do some investigating. :)
Cheers! :)


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

this is very interesting what you write. the thing is, when i first started
programming i was only taught vb6. knowing nothing at all about programming,
and given no real tutorials on how it works or how to do things correctly
with it, i struggled a lot with it. then one person got me into autoit. now,
thanks to that, i know a little more about programming (if you've seen my
dectalk scripter and timer on my site), and am now learning c++ as i said
before, and it is making more and more sense as i do more and more things
with autoit. i'm using a programming language similar to autoit in
functionality, but similar to c in syntax as a stepping stone, and it is my
aim to port all my autoit programs into c++ in the end. but i find that
starting off with autoit really helped me in the programming side of things.
but yes, i can understand your viewpoint on this matter also and find it
very interesting. i'm sure it was you who mentioned c sharp as well - that
has in-built documentation or something? maybe she'd be good starting off
with that one?

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 1:29 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> This list has been over this somewhat before but seriously I don't feel
> starting with autoit is the best suggestion. You may wonder why. Here is
> why I feel strongly against using autoit.
> First, off any seriously interested game developer worth a grain of
> sault must know and understand object oriented programming and design.
> All major programming languages weather we are talking C++, C#.NET,
> VB.NET, Java, etc work with objects, classes, etc... Sooner or later a
> new developer is going to have to learn it, and it might as be earlier
> than later.
> Second, autoit isn't a programming language per say so largely what you
> learn using it is basicly linked to autoit, and useless if you want to
> branch out and learn how to write a pro programming language, learn
> DirectX, and you wind up learning all over again from scratch. The time
> spent learning and working with autoit in my personal opinion is waisted.
> Third, learning a real full blown programming language for games has
> more flexable mainstream uses. You might be writing a couple of games,
> and decide you want to write your own mp3 player or wav recorder. You
> can do that, because you have a powerful language and compiler under
> your fingertips.
> Fourth, is similar to three, but this is to drive the point home. With
> autoit you are locked in to specific styles of games. With a full blown
> programming language you can do everything from text-based up to 3D audo
> FPS action games with online game play, etc...
> Fifth, while most PC owners still are largely MS Windows-based there is
> a slowly growing movement of sighted and blind folks who are now using
> alternative solutions such as Linux as well as FreeBSD, and some using
> Mac OS. With such a growing movement portability is likely going to
> become more important in the future.
> In fact, portability is one of the reasons I picked C#.NET as my
> development language for U.S.A. Games. At some point in the future I
> should be able to update my Sound.cs file with open source solutions
> like OpenAL, and run my games on Mac OS and Linux via Mono. I'm looking
> at porting STFC 2.0 to Linux right now, but have been busy with working
> on the core features of the game core to look in to portability.
> Anyway, why I am writing all this is I strongly feel a new developer
> needs to learn good coding and practices and skills right off rather
> than taking shortcuts like Autoit only to find  out in the end it wasn't
> really valuable or worth the time. Granted we all have different
> interests, tastes, and aspirations, but what I would like to see is the
> accessible game comunity to stop lingering in Autoit, VB 6, etc and
> begin to really get in to more complex concepts and put out some cutting
> edge stuff.
> I'm not saying this is going to happen at once, but the existing
> developers have sadly stopped pushing the edge of cutting edge gaming.
> We've got so many Space Invader type clones, but only a couple of FPS
> games like Shades of Doom, and SOD is still really a one of a kind. GMA
> Tank Commander was really the first awesome simulation combat game, but
> again nothing else has really come close to comparison. Why is this?
> Well, as I said a game developer has to start somewhere, and starting
> with something truly useful such as C#.NET or VB.NET right off will
> break the new developer in to a real programming language.  After that
> they'll have to practice with some simple games. Even a Space Invader
> Clone or two. However, after that he or she should be able to cut his or
> her teeth in to something more complex. Maybe a FPS game. After that
> work up to an online game.
> There is a progressiont to programming and a 

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

autoit is a language that is, i must admit, very limited. when making a game
with autoit you have to use a COM object called comaudio, which is just as
limited. it uses audiere, another limited library, to perform tasks. the
only real difference between comaudio and directx is that comaudio can play
encrypted and compressed sound archive files. that's really the only reason
i use it, because i wouldn't know where to start with making a sound
encryption algorithm and having to decrypt it for dx to play.
yes, autoit is very small. vb6 is somewhat more complicated and that's what
i started off with - big mistake, as there was no internal documentation, i
didn't know a thing about it, and all i got were exercises to copy, not
knowing how they worked or what they meant, or even what the point was of
these programs.
c++ is a lot more complicated, some people call it a "proper" language,
because of the fact that you have to tell it exactly what you want it to do,
where as vb and autoit use in-built functions to do all that for you. i
still don't understand vb6 now, which is why i jumped straight over to c++.
another c-like language you may or may not want to start off with is gentee.
don't know much about that, reading docs on it at the moment, but i'm using
that as a transitional language to help me understand c more.

hth.

regards,

damien



- Original Message -
From: "Rachel D Keyte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Thomas, as I said in my intro, i'm a total no-nothing when it
> comes to all this, at the moment anyway. Lol
> What are the differences in each of those program languages?  And
> what exactly is audoit?
> and also, when exactly does it change from writing a visual game (for
> sighties) to the blindy games (audio)?  In other words, Do both types
> of games use the same program languages to a point, or are they
> completely different from the start?
> Hope that makes sense.
> Cheers! :)
> At 10:29 AM 4/09/2006, you wrote:
>
> >Hi Damien,
> >This list has been over this somewhat before but seriously I don't feel
> >starting with autoit is the best suggestion. You may wonder why. Here is
> >why I feel strongly against using autoit.
> >First, off any seriously interested game developer worth a grain of
> >sault must know and understand object oriented programming and design.
> >All major programming languages weather we are talking C++, C#.NET,
> >VB.NET, Java, etc work with objects, classes, etc... Sooner or later a
> >new developer is going to have to learn it, and it might as be earlier
> >than later.
> >Second, autoit isn't a programming language per say so largely what you
> >learn using it is basicly linked to autoit, and useless if you want to
> >branch out and learn how to write a pro programming language, learn
> >DirectX, and you wind up learning all over again from scratch. The time
> >spent learning and working with autoit in my personal opinion is waisted.
> >Third, learning a real full blown programming language for games has
> >more flexable mainstream uses. You might be writing a couple of games,
> >and decide you want to write your own mp3 player or wav recorder. You
> >can do that, because you have a powerful language and compiler under
> >your fingertips.
> >Fourth, is similar to three, but this is to drive the point home. With
> >autoit you are locked in to specific styles of games. With a full blown
> >programming language you can do everything from text-based up to 3D audo
> >FPS action games with online game play, etc...
> >Fifth, while most PC owners still are largely MS Windows-based there is
> >a slowly growing movement of sighted and blind folks who are now using
> >alternative solutions such as Linux as well as FreeBSD, and some using
> >Mac OS. With such a growing movement portability is likely going to
> >become more important in the future.
> >In fact, portability is one of the reasons I picked C#.NET as my
> >development language for U.S.A. Games. At some point in the future I
> >should be able to update my Sound.cs file with open source solutions
> >like OpenAL, and run my games on Mac OS and Linux via Mono. I'm looking
> >at porting STFC 2.0 to Linux right now, but have been busy with working
> >on the core features of the game core to look in to portability.
> >Anyway, why I am writing all this is I strongly feel a new developer
> >needs to learn good coding and practices and skills right off rather
> >than taking shortcuts like Autoit only to find  out in the end it wasn't
> >rea

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Rachel,
Yes, I think C#.net, (called C-Sharp,) is a good starter language. I'll 
explain a bit about myself and why I feel that way.
When I was in college taking Computer Science courses I took a course in 
basic C++ and an advanced C++ course. I found that the language was 
powerful, but there is allot of knolege needed to write a simple Windows 
application. If you were to write something in C++ an esential book to 
read would be Windows Programming by Microsoft press. The book is 
something like 1000 or 1200 pages long and some of the code you need is 
dificult for a beginner is extremely complicated. 
In 2001/2002 Microsoft decided to come out with their .NET platform, and 
one of the new languages was C#.NET. One of the things that has made 
C#.NET popular amung amature and professional programmers is Microsoft 
has simplified many basic tasks for drawing buttons, Windows, and other 
controls. They used the Visual form editor from Visual Basic, and gave 
it the power of a C++/Java style language without all the complication 
involved with it.  Now, days using C#.NET just go to your project menu 
and tell it to add a new Windows form, and it generates one for you. 
Want to add a new class go to projects ask it to add a class and it 
will, and then you can modify the generated class to your needs. If you 
want to add a button, timer, listbox, etc go to the toolbox drop one on 
to your form, and modify it to your needs. It speeds up development at 
the same time simplifying things for you.
One of the powers of C#.NET and even VB.NET is you don't need to know 
allot of info on how Windows works to write good apps. All you need to 
know is what classes are in what framework dll files, and you can then 
create what is known as an object to access the properties in that class.
For example, lets assume you have a simple form called window. Look how 
easy it is in C#.NET to change the width and height of the window using 
objects and built in classes.

window.Height = 300;
window.Width = 300;

Our object is called window. The Height and Width variables belong to 
window, and you can change them thus actually effecting the width and 
height of the window being shown. Pretty simple and cool right?
Another reason I suggest going with C#.NET is it's growing support from 
Microsoft as well as professional and amature developers. At one time 
Microsoft DirectX use to come with Visual Basic 6 and C++ examples. 
Well, since DirectX 9.0 and later the only two languages now officially 
documented and supported is C++ and C#.NET, and there is very little to 
no official support for VB.NET although it can work with DirectX 9 if 
you fight with it and know what you are doing. Since C#.NET has been 
released to the public in 2002 there have been a handful of C#.NET books 
written about game programming, and only one that I know of for VB.NET, 
and the one VB.NET book was terrible at best. To ice the cake, as it 
were, when Kickstart DirectX 9 came out to show off the new features for 
DirectX 9 it was done in C#.NET not VB.NET or C++. That really says 
support for C#.NET is growing and the Visual Basic languages are slowly 
in decline.
The final point is that on non Windows operating systems such as Mac OS 
and Linux they use a .NET Framework called mono. If memory serves me 
correctly it can run almost any precompiled .NET binary, but the mono 
compiler will only except C#.NET source code if someone on those 
operating systems was doing .NET development.
So by and large in 2003 when I opened U.S.A. Games I saw the simplicity, 
the power, etc in C#.NET and chose it as my game development language. I 
have never regreted my decision. I know enough about other languages to 
write my games in VB, C++, Java, etc however C#.NET has proven not to 
disappoint me, and I really enjoy it. I can easily recommend it to 
anyone interested in writing accesible games.



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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
As I recall there are VB 6 books on blindprogramming.com as well as 
safari.oreilly.com. Honestly, the language isn't all that hard to learn 
with the proper documentation. Of course, my opinion might be a bit 
biast since I took Visual Basic 5 while I was in college for my CS 
degree, and it helps to have college level books, instructers, etc to 
fall back on. However, even then I didn't find it all that hard to pick 
up on.
I don't know what you mean about C#.NET, (C-Sharp,) having built in 
documentation,but the .NET framework SDK you download from Microsoft 
does have documentation as well as example programs to work with in 
C#.NET, VB.NET, and even C++.NET. However, those materials are less a 
tootorial than a reference guide to look up certain classes, what 
members and variables are in a class, and some examples how to use it in 
your code.
If you want to do any language right, correctly, you need to buy a good 
book from Oreilly like C# In a Nutshell or Learning C#.



x-sight interactive wrote:
> this is very interesting what you write. the thing is, when i first started
> programming i was only taught vb6. knowing nothing at all about programming,
> and given no real tutorials on how it works or how to do things correctly
> with it, i struggled a lot with it. then one person got me into autoit. now,
> thanks to that, i know a little more about programming (if you've seen my
> dectalk scripter and timer on my site), and am now learning c++ as i said
> before, and it is making more and more sense as i do more and more things
> with autoit. i'm using a programming language similar to autoit in
> functionality, but similar to c in syntax as a stepping stone, and it is my
> aim to port all my autoit programs into c++ in the end. but i find that
> starting off with autoit really helped me in the programming side of things.
> but yes, i can understand your viewpoint on this matter also and find it
> very interesting. i'm sure it was you who mentioned c sharp as well - that
> has in-built documentation or something? maybe she'd be good starting off
> with that one?
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
I'm probably getting a tad bit off topic from game development, but I 
feel this is an important point. Are you aware of the different levels 
of programming languages?
In computer science we place all programming languages in one of three 
catagories: low level, intermediate level, and high level. Which ranks 
them not only by complexity but design and function.
 An example of a low level programming language is assembly. It is 
perhaps one of the most complex languages to know and learn, but is at 
the very core of operating systems, and is extremely powerful in it's 
relm of low level operations such as system drivers, kernels, etc...
However, C and it's sister language C++ also can be used to write low 
level code and do low level operations. C is at the very core of Linux 
which is what the Linux kernel is written in.
Then, we have the intermediate level languages. I would say the majority 
of C++ applications fall in the relm of intermediate level. It's not as 
complex as assembly but light years more powerful and complicated than VB.
Finally, you come to the high level languages. Languages like VB, 
C#.NET, Java, fall in the high level catagory. They are much easier to 
learn then lower level languages, and high level operations such as a 
notepad program, scripting a web page, calculating a few numbers, an 
audio game, etc... The languages can't do low level stuff, but are easy 
to learn and very effective at what they do in their high level operations.
My point in saying all this is when you call C++ "a proper programming 
language," it is the understatement of the century. C++ happens to be 
able to be used in high level operations suchas C++.NET all the way down 
to low level operations like kernels, drivers, and run operating 
systems. Everyday devices such as cell phones, MP3 walkmans, cash 
registers,  etc are written with C++ driving the operating systems for 
those devices. Simbian OS which comes on most cell phones was written in 
C++.
So let's give C++ the title it deserves as the language of languages. It 
is perhaps the most flexable and powerful commonly used programming 
language known to man.


x-sight interactive wrote:
> autoit is a language that is, i must admit, very limited. when making a game
> with autoit you have to use a COM object called comaudio, which is just as
> limited. it uses audiere, another limited library, to perform tasks. the
> only real difference between comaudio and directx is that comaudio can play
> encrypted and compressed sound archive files. that's really the only reason
> i use it, because i wouldn't know where to start with making a sound
> encryption algorithm and having to decrypt it for dx to play.
> yes, autoit is very small. vb6 is somewhat more complicated and that's what
> i started off with - big mistake, as there was no internal documentation, i
> didn't know a thing about it, and all i got were exercises to copy, not
> knowing how they worked or what they meant, or even what the point was of
> these programs.
> c++ is a lot more complicated, some people call it a "proper" language,
> because of the fact that you have to tell it exactly what you want it to do,
> where as vb and autoit use in-built functions to do all that for you. i
> still don't understand vb6 now, which is why i jumped straight over to c++.
> another c-like language you may or may not want to start off with is gentee.
> don't know much about that, reading docs on it at the moment, but i'm using
> that as a transitional language to help me understand c more.
>
> hth.
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more libraries
than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework this, data
access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses direct x
8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.

at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you need,
like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll be
very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a pain
for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing is
some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
security, but privacy and compatibility also.

regards,

damien


- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Rachel,
> Yes, I think C#.net, (called C-Sharp,) is a good starter language. I'll
> explain a bit about myself and why I feel that way.
> When I was in college taking Computer Science courses I took a course in
> basic C++ and an advanced C++ course. I found that the language was
> powerful, but there is allot of knolege needed to write a simple Windows
> application. If you were to write something in C++ an esential book to
> read would be Windows Programming by Microsoft press. The book is
> something like 1000 or 1200 pages long and some of the code you need is
> dificult for a beginner is extremely complicated.
> In 2001/2002 Microsoft decided to come out with their .NET platform, and
> one of the new languages was C#.NET. One of the things that has made
> C#.NET popular amung amature and professional programmers is Microsoft
> has simplified many basic tasks for drawing buttons, Windows, and other
> controls. They used the Visual form editor from Visual Basic, and gave
> it the power of a C++/Java style language without all the complication
> involved with it.  Now, days using C#.NET just go to your project menu
> and tell it to add a new Windows form, and it generates one for you.
> Want to add a new class go to projects ask it to add a class and it
> will, and then you can modify the generated class to your needs. If you
> want to add a button, timer, listbox, etc go to the toolbox drop one on
> to your form, and modify it to your needs. It speeds up development at
> the same time simplifying things for you.
> One of the powers of C#.NET and even VB.NET is you don't need to know
> allot of info on how Windows works to write good apps. All you need to
> know is what classes are in what framework dll files, and you can then
> create what is known as an object to access the properties in that class.
> For example, lets assume you have a simple form called window. Look how
> easy it is in C#.NET to change the width and height of the window using
> objects and built in classes.
>
> window.Height = 300;
> window.Width = 300;
>
> Our object is called window. The Height and Width variables belong to
> window, and you can change them thus actually effecting the width and
> height of the window being shown. Pretty simple and cool right?
> Another reason I suggest going with C#.NET is it's growing support from
> Microsoft as well as professional and amature developers. At one time
> Microsoft DirectX use to come with Visual Basic 6 and C++ examples.
> Well, since DirectX 9.0 and later the only two languages now officially
> documented and supported is C++ and C#.NET, and there is very little to
> no official support for VB.NET although it can work with DirectX 9 if
> you fight with it and know what you are doing. Since C#.NET has been
> released to the public in 2002 there have been a handful of C#.NET books
> written about game programming, and only one that I know of for VB.NET,
> and the one VB.NET book was terrible at best. To ice the cake, as it
> were, when Kickstart DirectX 9 came out to show off the new features for
> DirectX 9 it was done in C#.NET not VB.NET or C++. That really says
> support for C#.NET is growing and the Visual Basic languages are slowly
> in decline.
> The final point is that on non Windows operating systems such as Mac OS
> and Linux they use a .NET Framework called mono. If memory serves me
> correctly it can run almost any precompiled .NET binary, but the mono
> compiler will only except C#.NET source code if someone on those
> operating systems was doing .NET development.
> So by and large in 2003 when I opened U.S.A. Games I saw the simplicity,
> the power, etc in C#.NET and ch

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

hmm. interesting. ok what was c and c++ written in out of curiosity?

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> I'm probably getting a tad bit off topic from game development, but I
> feel this is an important point. Are you aware of the different levels
> of programming languages?
> In computer science we place all programming languages in one of three
> catagories: low level, intermediate level, and high level. Which ranks
> them not only by complexity but design and function.
>  An example of a low level programming language is assembly. It is
> perhaps one of the most complex languages to know and learn, but is at
> the very core of operating systems, and is extremely powerful in it's
> relm of low level operations such as system drivers, kernels, etc...
> However, C and it's sister language C++ also can be used to write low
> level code and do low level operations. C is at the very core of Linux
> which is what the Linux kernel is written in.
> Then, we have the intermediate level languages. I would say the majority
> of C++ applications fall in the relm of intermediate level. It's not as
> complex as assembly but light years more powerful and complicated than VB.
> Finally, you come to the high level languages. Languages like VB,
> C#.NET, Java, fall in the high level catagory. They are much easier to
> learn then lower level languages, and high level operations such as a
> notepad program, scripting a web page, calculating a few numbers, an
> audio game, etc... The languages can't do low level stuff, but are easy
> to learn and very effective at what they do in their high level
operations.
> My point in saying all this is when you call C++ "a proper programming
> language," it is the understatement of the century. C++ happens to be
> able to be used in high level operations suchas C++.NET all the way down
> to low level operations like kernels, drivers, and run operating
> systems. Everyday devices such as cell phones, MP3 walkmans, cash
> registers,  etc are written with C++ driving the operating systems for
> those devices. Simbian OS which comes on most cell phones was written in
> C++.
> So let's give C++ the title it deserves as the language of languages. It
> is perhaps the most flexable and powerful commonly used programming
> language known to man.
>
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
> > autoit is a language that is, i must admit, very limited. when making a
game
> > with autoit you have to use a COM object called comaudio, which is just
as
> > limited. it uses audiere, another limited library, to perform tasks. the
> > only real difference between comaudio and directx is that comaudio can
play
> > encrypted and compressed sound archive files. that's really the only
reason
> > i use it, because i wouldn't know where to start with making a sound
> > encryption algorithm and having to decrypt it for dx to play.
> > yes, autoit is very small. vb6 is somewhat more complicated and that's
what
> > i started off with - big mistake, as there was no internal
documentation, i
> > didn't know a thing about it, and all i got were exercises to copy, not
> > knowing how they worked or what they meant, or even what the point was
of
> > these programs.
> > c++ is a lot more complicated, some people call it a "proper" language,
> > because of the fact that you have to tell it exactly what you want it to
do,
> > where as vb and autoit use in-built functions to do all that for you. i
> > still don't understand vb6 now, which is why i jumped straight over to
c++.
> > another c-like language you may or may not want to start off with is
gentee.
> > don't know much about that, reading docs on it at the moment, but i'm
using
> > that as a transitional language to help me understand c more.
> >
> > hth.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
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> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
>
>
>



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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
First, if you are using DirectX 8 with VB.NET no wonder you are getting 
a crash dialog. You aren't suppose to use DirectX 8 with VB.NET. You 
need DirectX 9.0C SDK, and nothing earlier.
Second, While it is true the entire .NET framework is large, 30 MB of 
libraries, bare in mind that .NET is becoming a core part of the Windows 
operating system, and will be included in Windows Vista as a core part 
of the os. So games written with .NET framework 2 should just install 
and run on Vista out of the box.
With older operating systems like Win 98 before .NET was written 
naturally Microsoft has a Windows update for 98, ME, 2000 etc which 
upgrades them, but generally speaking it is a one time upgrade provided 
no new new major versions hasn't come out. FYI. .NET 2 will run v1.1 and 
1.0 .NET apps provided they were not locked to an installer which 
searches only for a specific build number of .NET.
Third, you said you have more libraries than our necessary you are 
cutting .NET short. Actually, what MS has done is packed everything most 
applications need in to a nice set of libraries which are easy to 
understand, program with, and bare in mind .NET apps are not a "compiled 
binary as much as are converted to a runtime language, (MSIL.) Like Java 
all apps need a runtime environment which makes the application quickly 
portable across operating systems, devices, etc without a recompile. 
Packing it all in to a 30 to 50 MB runtime for portability which most 
developers sees is the way of the future for programs.
Fourth, as for your comments about C++ only needing DirectX that isn't 
always true. There are allot of libraries you can include from the Win32 
API in your game, and  those dll files are already preinstalled as a 
part of the Windows os already.



x-sight interactive wrote:
> thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more libraries
> than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework this, data
> access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
> some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses direct x
> 8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.
>
> at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you need,
> like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
> about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll be
> very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a pain
> for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing is
> some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
> security, but privacy and compatibility also.
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
Ok??? That is a confusing question. What do you mean what were C and C++ 
written in? Those are programming languages not operating systems, apps, 
etc...
That is kind of like asking what language is French made out of? Er 
the anser is French...
Now, if you are asking what language are the C and C++ compilers written 
in the answer is C/C++. Once upon a time many moons ago compilers were 
written in assembly, but once languages like C and C++ came in to there 
own they were used to write the current generation of compilers.

x-sight interactive wrote:
> hmm. interesting. ok what was c and c++ written in out of curiosity?
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

hmm? interesting. when i brought that comment up a few months ago i got
replies back saying that direct x was a lot better and easier to program
with.

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> First, if you are using DirectX 8 with VB.NET no wonder you are getting
> a crash dialog. You aren't suppose to use DirectX 8 with VB.NET. You
> need DirectX 9.0C SDK, and nothing earlier.
> Second, While it is true the entire .NET framework is large, 30 MB of
> libraries, bare in mind that .NET is becoming a core part of the Windows
> operating system, and will be included in Windows Vista as a core part
> of the os. So games written with .NET framework 2 should just install
> and run on Vista out of the box.
> With older operating systems like Win 98 before .NET was written
> naturally Microsoft has a Windows update for 98, ME, 2000 etc which
> upgrades them, but generally speaking it is a one time upgrade provided
> no new new major versions hasn't come out. FYI. .NET 2 will run v1.1 and
> 1.0 .NET apps provided they were not locked to an installer which
> searches only for a specific build number of .NET.
> Third, you said you have more libraries than our necessary you are
> cutting .NET short. Actually, what MS has done is packed everything most
> applications need in to a nice set of libraries which are easy to
> understand, program with, and bare in mind .NET apps are not a "compiled
> binary as much as are converted to a runtime language, (MSIL.) Like Java
> all apps need a runtime environment which makes the application quickly
> portable across operating systems, devices, etc without a recompile.
> Packing it all in to a 30 to 50 MB runtime for portability which most
> developers sees is the way of the future for programs.
> Fourth, as for your comments about C++ only needing DirectX that isn't
> always true. There are allot of libraries you can include from the Win32
> API in your game, and  those dll files are already preinstalled as a
> part of the Windows os already.
>
>
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
> > thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more
libraries
> > than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework this,
data
> > access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
> > some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses
direct x
> > 8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.
> >
> > at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you
need,
> > like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
> > about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll
be
> > very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a
pain
> > for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing
is
> > some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
> > security, but privacy and compatibility also.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
>
>
>



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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

hmm ok fair enough. oh and btw, most, if not all speech languages are
derived from other languages, like english is derived from latin and german
etc, i don't know what french is derived from but it must be derived from
something *smile*.

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> Ok??? That is a confusing question. What do you mean what were C and C++
> written in? Those are programming languages not operating systems, apps,
> etc...
> That is kind of like asking what language is French made out of? Er
> the anser is French...
> Now, if you are asking what language are the C and C++ compilers written
> in the answer is C/C++. Once upon a time many moons ago compilers were
> written in assembly, but once languages like C and C++ came in to there
> own they were used to write the current generation of compilers.
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
> > hmm. interesting. ok what was c and c++ written in out of curiosity?
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
That is true. DirectX is better and easier to program with for games and 
multimedia.  I think you are getting things confused do to your personal 
lack of programming experience. So let me clarify things.
Let us say you are writing a game. You are going to want to use DirectX 
for your graphics, sound, input handling, etc... However, DirectX may 
not be all that is needed. Let us say you need some settings dialogs for 
setting game settings etc... Then, you will likely need stuff from the 
win32 API to build the dialog boxes and to save and restore games etc...
So in all what I am saying use DirectX in your C++ applications, but 
there is still some Win32 stuff you may need in the game as well.



x-sight interactive wrote:
> hmm? interesting. when i brought that comment up a few months ago i got
> replies back saying that direct x was a lot better and easier to program
> with.
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Thomas Ward]

Hi Damien,
Yeah, but we are not talking historical roots of languages. What my 
point is that French is French and C++ is C++ no matter what they may 
have derived from.
If we are looking at the history of programming languages in general C 
was originally designed for use on the Unix OS, and in the 1980's C was 
upgraded to C++ which introduced object oriented programming.  Over the 
years several languages such as perl, C#.NET, Java, Python, etc were 
designed from a C/C++ base.
Anyway, we have gotten way off topic, and perhaps we should be closing 
down this thread.
Smile.


x-sight interactive wrote:
> hmm ok fair enough. oh and btw, most, if not all speech languages are
> derived from other languages, like english is derived from latin and german
> etc, i don't know what french is derived from but it must be derived from
> something *smile*.
>
> regards,
>
> damien
>   


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[shaun everiss]

Not to mention all the downloads.
I have msxml I think, not sure.
I have the directx that comes with xp and the latest mdac from windows update.
So thats like 9mb gone.
But dx9 is 50mb, dotnet 1 is 30 and dotnet 2 is also 30 so 110mb.
Then there are the packs for both which come to another 30mb maybe 
less, so 160mb for all that.
I havn't had any issues on any system with all those loaded.
However I'm always upgrading things.
I have every kit on the devkit damon has collected.
I have autoit, python with pygame, pysonic, pymidi pytts and pyaa.
My latest addition is mde from nasa that does math programming and 
sound speech and other things.
Ofcause with all that and other stuff both my hard drives are about 
full, both internal and external only 40gb.
I'm probably going to buy a 500gb external at the end of the year to 
pour all my mp3s and other stuff on.
And well for a while that should releave the situation.
At 08:30 a.m. 5/09/2006, you wrote:
>thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more libraries
>than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework this, data
>access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
>some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses direct x
>8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.
>
>at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you need,
>like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
>about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll be
>very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a pain
>for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing is
>some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
>security, but privacy and compatibility also.
>
>regards,
>
>damien
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:02 PM
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro
>
>
> > Hi Rachel,
> > Yes, I think C#.net, (called C-Sharp,) is a good starter language. I'll
> > explain a bit about myself and why I feel that way.
> > When I was in college taking Computer Science courses I took a course in
> > basic C++ and an advanced C++ course. I found that the language was
> > powerful, but there is allot of knolege needed to write a simple Windows
> > application. If you were to write something in C++ an esential book to
> > read would be Windows Programming by Microsoft press. The book is
> > something like 1000 or 1200 pages long and some of the code you need is
> > dificult for a beginner is extremely complicated.
> > In 2001/2002 Microsoft decided to come out with their .NET platform, and
> > one of the new languages was C#.NET. One of the things that has made
> > C#.NET popular amung amature and professional programmers is Microsoft
> > has simplified many basic tasks for drawing buttons, Windows, and other
> > controls. They used the Visual form editor from Visual Basic, and gave
> > it the power of a C++/Java style language without all the complication
> > involved with it.  Now, days using C#.NET just go to your project menu
> > and tell it to add a new Windows form, and it generates one for you.
> > Want to add a new class go to projects ask it to add a class and it
> > will, and then you can modify the generated class to your needs. If you
> > want to add a button, timer, listbox, etc go to the toolbox drop one on
> > to your form, and modify it to your needs. It speeds up development at
> > the same time simplifying things for you.
> > One of the powers of C#.NET and even VB.NET is you don't need to know
> > allot of info on how Windows works to write good apps. All you need to
> > know is what classes are in what framework dll files, and you can then
> > create what is known as an object to access the properties in that class.
> > For example, lets assume you have a simple form called window. Look how
> > easy it is in C#.NET to change the width and height of the window using
> > objects and built in classes.
> >
> > window.Height = 300;
> > window.Width = 300;
> >
> > Our object is called window. The Height and Width variables belong to
> > window, and you can change them thus actually effecting the width and
> > height of the window being shown. Pretty simple and cool right?
> > Another reason I suggest going with C#.NET is it's growing support from
> > Microsoft as well as professional and amature developers. At one time
> > Microsoft DirectX use to com

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[shaun everiss]

well I have dotnet 1 and 2.
It will be good if dotnet 1 and 2 are made part of windows though as 
well as directx 9c.
One thing that would be nice would be if you had c# as part of the os.
Linux has c as part of the os.
Or at least a compiler.
ms dos has basic.
qbasic I mean.
win 95 had qbasic.
Would be good if win vista had c# in it.
At 09:48 a.m. 5/09/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Damien,
>First, if you are using DirectX 8 with VB.NET no wonder you are getting
>a crash dialog. You aren't suppose to use DirectX 8 with VB.NET. You
>need DirectX 9.0C SDK, and nothing earlier.
>Second, While it is true the entire .NET framework is large, 30 MB of
>libraries, bare in mind that .NET is becoming a core part of the Windows
>operating system, and will be included in Windows Vista as a core part
>of the os. So games written with .NET framework 2 should just install
>and run on Vista out of the box.
>With older operating systems like Win 98 before .NET was written
>naturally Microsoft has a Windows update for 98, ME, 2000 etc which
>upgrades them, but generally speaking it is a one time upgrade provided
>no new new major versions hasn't come out. FYI. .NET 2 will run v1.1 and
>1.0 .NET apps provided they were not locked to an installer which
>searches only for a specific build number of .NET.
>Third, you said you have more libraries than our necessary you are
>cutting .NET short. Actually, what MS has done is packed everything most
>applications need in to a nice set of libraries which are easy to
>understand, program with, and bare in mind .NET apps are not a "compiled
>binary as much as are converted to a runtime language, (MSIL.) Like Java
>all apps need a runtime environment which makes the application quickly
>portable across operating systems, devices, etc without a recompile.
>Packing it all in to a 30 to 50 MB runtime for portability which most
>developers sees is the way of the future for programs.
>Fourth, as for your comments about C++ only needing DirectX that isn't
>always true. There are allot of libraries you can include from the Win32
>API in your game, and  those dll files are already preinstalled as a
>part of the Windows os already.
>
>
>
>x-sight interactive wrote:
> > thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more libraries
> > than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework 
> this, data
> > access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
> > some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses direct x
> > 8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.
> >
> > at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you need,
> > like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
> > about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll be
> > very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a pain
> > for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing is
> > some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
> > security, but privacy and compatibility also.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
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>To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit
>http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
>any subscription changes via the web.
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 4/09/2006



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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

ah. yes i suppose you're right, i don't have much experience in proper
programming. i suppose that's why i struggle a lot. then again i should know
more as time goes on as i learn new technique and things.
do any of you guys think i'll make it?

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> That is true. DirectX is better and easier to program with for games and
> multimedia.  I think you are getting things confused do to your personal
> lack of programming experience. So let me clarify things.
> Let us say you are writing a game. You are going to want to use DirectX
> for your graphics, sound, input handling, etc... However, DirectX may
> not be all that is needed. Let us say you need some settings dialogs for
> setting game settings etc... Then, you will likely need stuff from the
> win32 API to build the dialog boxes and to save and restore games etc...
> So in all what I am saying use DirectX in your C++ applications, but
> there is still some Win32 stuff you may need in the game as well.
>
>
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
> > hmm? interesting. when i brought that comment up a few months ago i got
> > replies back saying that direct x was a lot better and easier to program
> > with.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.
>
>



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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[x-sight interactive]

hey shaun i could give you msvs98 (visual studio 6 enterprise) if you should
really want it, just getting it to you though. that's if you want to learn
vb or c++ or something. that does have some rather useful tools with it.

regards,

damien




- Original Message -
From: "shaun everiss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Not to mention all the downloads.
> I have msxml I think, not sure.
> I have the directx that comes with xp and the latest mdac from windows
update.
> So thats like 9mb gone.
> But dx9 is 50mb, dotnet 1 is 30 and dotnet 2 is also 30 so 110mb.
> Then there are the packs for both which come to another 30mb maybe
> less, so 160mb for all that.
> I havn't had any issues on any system with all those loaded.
> However I'm always upgrading things.
> I have every kit on the devkit damon has collected.
> I have autoit, python with pygame, pysonic, pymidi pytts and pyaa.
> My latest addition is mde from nasa that does math programming and
> sound speech and other things.
> Ofcause with all that and other stuff both my hard drives are about
> full, both internal and external only 40gb.
> I'm probably going to buy a 500gb external at the end of the year to
> pour all my mp3s and other stuff on.
> And well for a while that should releave the situation.
> At 08:30 a.m. 5/09/2006, you wrote:
> >thing is though with all these .net applications is you need more
libraries
> >than are necessary. that's the only problem i find, net framework this,
data
> >access components that, microsoft xml the other, bearing in mind that on
> >some systems, mine included, a program written in vb.net that uses direct
x
> >8 and the net framework tends to bring up one of those crash dialogs.
> >
> >at least with a language like c++ the only real essential library you
need,
> >like one written in vb6, is direct x, and i don't know how you guys feel
> >about this, but it must be the right version. if you go too early you'll
be
> >very limited, but if you go too late then it's going to be a bit of a
pain
> >for the average computer user, let's just say. of course the other thing
is
> >some people are just very cautious with upgrades, not only because of
> >security, but privacy and compatibility also.
> >
> >regards,
> >
> >damien
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> >Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 8:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro
> >
> >
> > > Hi Rachel,
> > > Yes, I think C#.net, (called C-Sharp,) is a good starter language.
I'll
> > > explain a bit about myself and why I feel that way.
> > > When I was in college taking Computer Science courses I took a course
in
> > > basic C++ and an advanced C++ course. I found that the language was
> > > powerful, but there is allot of knolege needed to write a simple
Windows
> > > application. If you were to write something in C++ an esential book to
> > > read would be Windows Programming by Microsoft press. The book is
> > > something like 1000 or 1200 pages long and some of the code you need
is
> > > dificult for a beginner is extremely complicated.
> > > In 2001/2002 Microsoft decided to come out with their .NET platform,
and
> > > one of the new languages was C#.NET. One of the things that has made
> > > C#.NET popular amung amature and professional programmers is Microsoft
> > > has simplified many basic tasks for drawing buttons, Windows, and
other
> > > controls. They used the Visual form editor from Visual Basic, and gave
> > > it the power of a C++/Java style language without all the complication
> > > involved with it.  Now, days using C#.NET just go to your project menu
> > > and tell it to add a new Windows form, and it generates one for you.
> > > Want to add a new class go to projects ask it to add a class and it
> > > will, and then you can modify the generated class to your needs. If
you
> > > want to add a button, timer, listbox, etc go to the toolbox drop one
on
> > > to your form, and modify it to your needs. It speeds up development at
> > > the same time simplifying things for you.
> > > One of the powers of C#.NET and even VB.NET is you don't need to know
> > > allot of info on how Windows works to write good apps. All you need to
> > > know is what classes are in what framework dll files

Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[shaun everiss]

I think so damon.

At 07:44 p.m. 5/09/2006, you wrote:
>ah. yes i suppose you're right, i don't have much experience in proper
>programming. i suppose that's why i struggle a lot. then again i should know
>more as time goes on as i learn new technique and things.
>do any of you guys think i'll make it?
>
>regards,
>
>damien
>
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 12:20 AM
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro
>
>
> > Hi Damien,
> > That is true. DirectX is better and easier to program with for games and
> > multimedia.  I think you are getting things confused do to your personal
> > lack of programming experience. So let me clarify things.
> > Let us say you are writing a game. You are going to want to use DirectX
> > for your graphics, sound, input handling, etc... However, DirectX may
> > not be all that is needed. Let us say you need some settings dialogs for
> > setting game settings etc... Then, you will likely need stuff from the
> > win32 API to build the dialog boxes and to save and restore games etc...
> > So in all what I am saying use DirectX in your C++ applications, but
> > there is still some Win32 stuff you may need in the game as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > x-sight interactive wrote:
> > > hmm? interesting. when i brought that comment up a few months ago i got
> > > replies back saying that direct x was a lot better and easier to program
> > > with.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > damien
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> > To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
>visit
> > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> > any subscription changes via the web.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>___
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>
>
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>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Don Voyles]

Hi Tom!

I have been listening  to this conversation and I find it very
interesting. I have thought about taking computer science and your
explanation has greatly encouraged me.

Thanks!



- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro


> Hi Damien,
> I'm probably getting a tad bit off topic from game development, but I
> feel this is an important point. Are you aware of the different levels
> of programming languages?
> In computer science we place all programming languages in one of three
> catagories: low level, intermediate level, and high level. Which ranks
> them not only by complexity but design and function.
>  An example of a low level programming language is assembly. It is
> perhaps one of the most complex languages to know and learn, but is at
> the very core of operating systems, and is extremely powerful in it's
> relm of low level operations such as system drivers, kernels, etc...
> However, C and it's sister language C++ also can be used to write low
> level code and do low level operations. C is at the very core of Linux
> which is what the Linux kernel is written in.
> Then, we have the intermediate level languages. I would say the majority
> of C++ applications fall in the relm of intermediate level. It's not as
> complex as assembly but light years more powerful and complicated than VB.
> Finally, you come to the high level languages. Languages like VB,
> C#.NET, Java, fall in the high level catagory. They are much easier to
> learn then lower level languages, and high level operations such as a
> notepad program, scripting a web page, calculating a few numbers, an
> audio game, etc... The languages can't do low level stuff, but are easy
> to learn and very effective at what they do in their high level
operations.
> My point in saying all this is when you call C++ "a proper programming
> language," it is the understatement of the century. C++ happens to be
> able to be used in high level operations suchas C++.NET all the way down
> to low level operations like kernels, drivers, and run operating
> systems. Everyday devices such as cell phones, MP3 walkmans, cash
> registers,  etc are written with C++ driving the operating systems for
> those devices. Simbian OS which comes on most cell phones was written in
> C++.
> So let's give C++ the title it deserves as the language of languages. It
> is perhaps the most flexable and powerful commonly used programming
> language known to man.
>
>
> x-sight interactive wrote:
> > autoit is a language that is, i must admit, very limited. when making a
game
> > with autoit you have to use a COM object called comaudio, which is just
as
> > limited. it uses audiere, another limited library, to perform tasks. the
> > only real difference between comaudio and directx is that comaudio can
play
> > encrypted and compressed sound archive files. that's really the only
reason
> > i use it, because i wouldn't know where to start with making a sound
> > encryption algorithm and having to decrypt it for dx to play.
> > yes, autoit is very small. vb6 is somewhat more complicated and that's
what
> > i started off with - big mistake, as there was no internal
documentation, i
> > didn't know a thing about it, and all i got were exercises to copy, not
> > knowing how they worked or what they meant, or even what the point was
of
> > these programs.
> > c++ is a lot more complicated, some people call it a "proper" language,
> > because of the fact that you have to tell it exactly what you want it to
do,
> > where as vb and autoit use in-built functions to do all that for you. i
> > still don't understand vb6 now, which is why i jumped straight over to
c++.
> > another c-like language you may or may not want to start off with is
gentee.
> > don't know much about that, reading docs on it at the moment, but i'm
using
> > that as a transitional language to help me understand c more.
> >
> > hth.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > damien
> >
>
>
> ___
> Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
> To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can
visit
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make
> any subscription changes via the web.


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Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

[Sean Mealin]

Hi everyone;
I am a few days behind on email, so that is why I am replying to this so
late. 
Just so people know; there is a list dedicated to stuff like this; check out
http://lists.agdev.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agdev-newbies

Sean Mealin

-Original Message-
From: Thomas Ward [mailto:"Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>] 
Sent: None
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game development was intro

Hi Rachel,
Yes, I think C#.net, (called C-Sharp,) is a good starter language. I'll 
explain a bit about myself and why I feel that way.
When I was in college taking Computer Science courses I took a course in 
basic C++ and an advanced C++ course. I found that the language was 
powerful, but there is allot of knolege needed to write a simple Windows 
application. If you were to write something in C++ an esential book to 
read would be Windows Programming by Microsoft press. The book is 
something like 1000 or 1200 pages long and some of the code you need is 
dificult for a beginner is extremely complicated. 
In 2001/2002 Microsoft decided to come out with their .NET platform, and 
one of the new languages was C#.NET. One of the things that has made 
C#.NET popular amung amature and professional programmers is Microsoft 
has simplified many basic tasks for drawing buttons, Windows, and other 
controls. They used the Visual form editor from Visual Basic, and gave 
it the power of a C++/Java style language without all the complication 
involved with it.  Now, days using C#.NET just go to your project menu 
and tell it to add a new Windows form, and it generates one for you. 
Want to add a new class go to projects ask it to add a class and it 
will, and then you can modify the generated class to your needs. If you 
want to add a button, timer, listbox, etc go to the toolbox drop one on 
to your form, and modify it to your needs. It speeds up development at 
the same time simplifying things for you.
One of the powers of C#.NET and even VB.NET is you don't need to know 
allot of info on how Windows works to write good apps. All you need to 
know is what classes are in what framework dll files, and you can then 
create what is known as an object to access the properties in that class.
For example, lets assume you have a simple form called window. Look how 
easy it is in C#.NET to change the width and height of the window using 
objects and built in classes.

window.Height = 300;
window.Width = 300;

Our object is called window. The Height and Width variables belong to 
window, and you can change them thus actually effecting the width and 
height of the window being shown. Pretty simple and cool right?
Another reason I suggest going with C#.NET is it's growing support from 
Microsoft as well as professional and amature developers. At one time 
Microsoft DirectX use to come with Visual Basic 6 and C++ examples. 
Well, since DirectX 9.0 and later the only two languages now officially 
documented and supported is C++ and C#.NET, and there is very little to 
no official support for VB.NET although it can work with DirectX 9 if 
you fight with it and know what you are doing. Since C#.NET has been 
released to the public in 2002 there have been a handful of C#.NET books 
written about game programming, and only one that I know of for VB.NET, 
and the one VB.NET book was terrible at best. To ice the cake, as it 
were, when Kickstart DirectX 9 came out to show off the new features for 
DirectX 9 it was done in C#.NET not VB.NET or C++. That really says 
support for C#.NET is growing and the Visual Basic languages are slowly 
in decline.
The final point is that on non Windows operating systems such as Mac OS 
and Linux they use a .NET Framework called mono. If memory serves me 
correctly it can run almost any precompiled .NET binary, but the mono 
compiler will only except C#.NET source code if someone on those 
operating systems was doing .NET development.
So by and large in 2003 when I opened U.S.A. Games I saw the simplicity, 
the power, etc in C#.NET and chose it as my game development language. I 
have never regreted my decision. I know enough about other languages to 
write my games in VB, C++, Java, etc however C#.NET has proven not to 
disappoint me, and I really enjoy it. I can easily recommend it to 
anyone interested in writing accesible games.



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Re: [Audyssey] Game Development, Accessibility, and a Future worth Fighting For

[Paul Lemm]

Hi Dakotah,,

Agree with you totally on this, although I have no idea what Indy developers
earn, I'm pretty sure  it's not enough   to live off and definitely nowhere
near as much as a programmer working full time for a corporate company

 I know a sighted friend who  developed a sighted  game for IOS and it
definitely didn't make him rich , yeah sure people downloaded  it  and he
made a little cash  but nowhere near the kind of money he makes in his day
job , but he did the game more for fun than profit.  yes like you said audio
games is a nitch market which does mean  a small customer base, but this is
also a positive  as pretty much any good game  that is brought out  most
people that play audio games  will  hear about it as unlike the main stream
indie market with thousands of games being released all the time  any new
game is easily over looked   and difficult  to get people to play, whereas
the audio games market small that it is  through lists like this and audio
games forums  most people will hear about the game and if its got a demo
give it a try  and I think you can't get that kind of exposure in the main
stream market due to the quantity of games being produced , and of course if
you can get people to play the demo and the price is right people will buy
it, think the proof is  in Jeremy's email where he said he made $12,000 out
of swamp and yes I know this isn't enough to live off but it shows blind
people  will pay for a good game

Just an afterthought after my above ranting, please don't any developers
take this the wrong way and as if I am having a go at developers, as its not
at all I think the work all developers of audio games do is fantastic and
there are some audio games I play time and time again  and marvel at the
work put into these  games  and take my hat off to each and every developer
putting his or her time into creating these games, I just wanted to point
out some of the positive side of audio game programming  and on that note
think both Jason (from entombed) and Jeremy (from swamp  and many others
too) are both sighted developers (apologies if I have that incorrect( but
I'm pretty sure both have said in email comments how much they enjoy
programing for our nitch market since the people  and feedback is so much
more positive than the feedback from main stream games where feedback is
more often than not only given when people have something negative to say

Paul 

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Dakotah
Rickard
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 12:52 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: [Audyssey] Game Development, Accessibility, and a Future worth
Fighting For

We have had much discussion, of late, on a topic we usually discuss
thoroughly about every year, sometimes every few months. That topic is game
development, its costs, its profits, its hazards. We resort to comparisons
with the major game studios, comparisons with major mainstream games we have
encountered or heard about. I have had, finally, a clarifying thought, and I
intend that it reach all of the blind players and developers of audiogames
that it possibly can.
I have two discrete, separate topics. First, the fact that developers of
games for the blind, by extension audiogames, by extension games in general
don't make much money from it. Second, we are a niche market, at this point,
primarily due to lack of awareness, lack of exposure, and lack of
confidence.
First, Developers of audio games don't make living wages. However, neither
do developers of most of the games out there for sighted folks.
Mojang, the people who made the popular indie game Minecraft, may be rolling
in the dosh, but they're a remarkable, phenomenal story, I'm not saying that
you have to work for a triple A publisher:
Electronic Arts, etc. to make good money, but what I am saying is that we
should remember that we're indie developers, that we play indie games. When
games for the blind in general, and audiogames in specific, came to be a
thing, Indie wasn't a word at all associated with games. Now, especially
because of the ease of entrance into the mobile space and the presence of
tremendous online markets for PC and Mac, most of the games out there are
Indie games. For people unfamiliar with the term, this means they are
developed by an independent individual or small team. They aren't made by
huge organizations, giant studios, or wealthy individuals. I think that this
is a necessary perspective when considering how much we might make by
developing software for blind gamers.

The second part of this is the new revolution in the mainstream gaming
world. Game audio in general is a lot more useful and a lot more important
than it was. I couldn't play popular Bioware title Mass Effect in its
entirety, but I could play one of the minigames, scanning planets, perfectly
well. I could identify, with apparently startling accuracy, direction and
distance of enemies. I can locate enemies and 

Re: [Audyssey] Game Development, Accessibility, and a Future worth Fighting For

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Dakotah,

You know I was literally just about to write a message very similar to yours, 
but in response to Valiant.

While his note almost exactly reflects my story of late, I agree with your 
sentiments here one hundred percent!

Not sure if everyone knows here, but after my work with Audio Quake, (Jedi 
Quake) Josh (from Draconis) approached me about working with them. Another 
audio game company that you all know, also approached me but I had already 
agreed to join Draconis.

Because of my Audio Quake and Draconis experience, I realized that I could 
write a mobile app which was very important to me. It is a GPS app called 
Breadcrumbs.

LookTel found out about it, purchased it from me and then hired me to work on 
it, in addition to the other LookTel projects.

This really ties both your and Valiant's notes together in my opinion, as I 
felt it was important to share my above story so that the members of our 
community can realize that we all have mad skills which we can use to help 
ourselves and to also contribute to the world. Yes, I'm not developing games 
per se, but I am working on projects which benefit this community.

I consider myself blessed every day to be able to do this and be well-payed for 
it.

It's so very important that people not take no for an answer, and just try as 
much as you can; do as much as you can. You may not realize that you have 
talents that people want. You absolutely do though. I cannot emphasize this 
enough! :)

I never went to school for coding. I supported myself in the entertainment 
industry, modeling, teaching guitar / music theory, writing, etc.

so I never expected to find myself working as a professional software developer.

I must say that I am so glad that I am! :)

-And, I have many in this community to thank for it; Matthew and Sebby (with 
Audio Quake) Josh (with Draconis) Thomas (with USA Games) and of course the 
LookTel team for believing in me and inviting me to be involved with them. 
Every single one of you rocks!

As Dakotah said, this is not idealism talking, this is real life. Stories like 
mine actually happen and they happen to people like us in this community.

The opportunities we have now are much much greater than ever before. One 
developer (for very little money, all things considered) can write an app, and 
get it on the App Store or Google Play Store etc for example and actually make 
money with it, reach thousands (possibly millions) of people and become known 
this way. You can literally touch lives this way. You can make a real 
difference for people in the world.

I wrote my app because I needed it. -And there was nothing like it out there, 
and I thought others might like it. I did not wait for anyone else to do it. 
What I did not know, I learned. There are many people in this community with 
incredible skills and talents.

Some use them for hacking / cracking. Some use them for game-development. Some 
use them for other things. My point is that we can contribute. We can improve 
not only our own lives but the lives of the people around us and those of the 
wider communities of which we are a part.

When we help each other, we help ourselves.

to bring this back to gaming, sure, we all would like to see more audio games. 
Maybe some of us cannot contribute much money to such projects but we all can 
contribute something, whether it be time, expertise, other resources etc. If 
you do not wait for others to do things for you, you may be surprised at what 
you find you can do.

Conversely, if you really cannot do something, do not be afraid to find someone 
who can, and find out what you can offer to them that they might need, so that 
you both benefit. Does this make sense?

Sometimes the old saying is quite true, Necessity is the mother of invention. :)

Okay, that's enough from me for now.

I hope this note helps someone.

I wish you all a lovely weekend and happy holiday season!

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Dec 18, 2014, at 5:52 PM, Dakotah Rickard  wrote:

We have had much discussion, of late, on a topic we usually discuss
thoroughly about every year, sometimes every few months. That topic is
game development, its costs, its profits, its hazards. We resort to
comparisons with the major game studios, comparisons with major
mainstream games we have encountered or heard about. I have had,
finally, a clarifying thought, and I intend that it reach all of the
blind players and developers of audiogames that it possibly can.
I have two discrete, separate topics. First, the fact that developers
of games for the blind, by extension audiogames, by extension games in
general don't make much money from it. Second, we are a niche market,
at this point, primarily due to lack of awareness, lack of exposure,
and lack of confidence.
First, Developers of audio games don't make li