Re: gEDA-user: help with pcb dsn plugin
Hi all,
-Original Message-
From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org
[mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 12:16 AM
To: geda-user@moria.seul.org
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: help with pcb dsn plugin
On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 11:58 -0700, Jared Casper wrote:
-- extensive style changes for my own sanity. There was
inconsistent
style throughout (like all of pcb's code), so I chose the one I
personally like best (linux kernel style with indent of 4
instead of
8). :)
PCB mostly has a consistent style, and we won't apply patches
which don't follow that.
Two space indents,
if (test)
{
statements (like, this);
}
else
{
even_if_they_ARE_horrid ();
}
This is the next patch on my todo list.
Is the above the exact syntax ?
A lot of the code then substitutes 8 spaces for a tab
character (at the beginnings of lines), but that is just the
work of the devil IMO ;).
-- Brought all the handling of coordinates up to date with the new
Coord type and nm precision. There were a few places where
dimensions
were being rounded to the nearest mil, etc. which would've been bad
for metric based boards. This has all been taken care of
and appears
to be working in some simple tests. DSN files are now in mm
units with
nm precision.
Nice.
-- Removed the somewhat dubious code for finding the
rotation of the
part copied over from bom.c. We don't have the original footprint
anyway, so the rotation was not being used. The code is
still there in
bom.c if it is needed in the future.
Good idea.
[snip]
Some things still not quite handled:
-- Existing polygons on the pcb don't make it into the dsn.
If you need any pointers on that, give me a shout.
-- As noted in the bug report, there is no copyright/license notice
from the original authors. Maybe some legal issues with
the Specctra
file format as well (I doubt it though, the text-based file format
would be trivial to reverse-engineer even without the spec).
You might need to try and contact the original author, but
I'd personally not worry about implementing compatibility
with the file-format. The only issue we might have is what we
call it - Specctra might be a trademarked name.
I contacted Josh Jordan (PM), see the copyright notice and license stanza in
patch 0003 on LP.
-- Probably some other stuff.
It appears to be working with some early tests, and
freerouting.net is
pretty awesome.
I still have issues with examples/LED.pcb getting imported without tweaking,
the dsn exporter should work straight out-of-the-box without massaging
quotes and other tweaks.
Great!
Best wishes,
--
Peter Clifton
Electrical Engineering Division,
Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge,
9, JJ Thomson Avenue,
Cambridge
CB3 0FA
Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!)
Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me)
Kind regards,
Bert Timmerman.
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Re: gEDA-user: Happy 20th
Hi, congrats too, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Gibson Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 8:45 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: gEDA-user: Happy 20th Happy Birthday to Linux, 20 years old today. (9/17) -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY Linux, free software, for the people, by the people. If you are a collector you might have the linux-0.0.1 tarball somewhere around. Try it on todays hardware and see if it still compiles and what your mileage is ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 4:08 PM To: geda-dev; geda-user Subject: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows I have an idea what might be the root cause of the zoom bug... I will take bets that all the locales where this was reported - Dutch, Finish, German - use , as a decimal separator rather than .. The action we execute on zoom is Zoom(+1.2) or Zoom(-1.2) which would not work if those numbers were miss-interpreted. Perhaps we are failing to set the appropriate LC_NUMERIC (or equivalent) on Win32. I recall a similar bug in gschem or gerbv which required us to use C not POSIX when setting the locale. A quick grep shows: src/hid/gtk/gui-top-window.c: setlocale (LC_NUMERIC, POSIX); /* use decimal point instead of comma */ FAIL ___^ The gschem commit in question was this: commit a78d166a1b57b80ff46e2ac98a14989b8af77c3e Author: Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk Date: Tue Jan 19 23:11:36 2010 + Set the LC_NUMERIC locale to C rather than POSIX This value is supported on Win32 platforms, whereas POSIX doesn't appear to have any effect. This is required in order to get correct postscript output in locales where , is used as the decimal point separator. It also affects the font strings passed to Pango, causing broken text rendering in gschem. Thanks to Cesar for testing this change indeed fixes the issue. Tested-by: Cesar Strauss cestra...@gmail.com (cherry picked from commit 5d130060e694cfd3b3be177f1fae4a576728ff25) A better solution would be to use locale agnostic string processing routines here. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) Nope, pcb-20110916.exe is still not zooming with z/Z or the pull down menu. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:53 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Zoom bug on Windows DJ Delorie wrote: Another try (url changed to make sure you don't get a stale copy): ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/geda-windows/snapshots/pcb-20110916-2.exe Sucess! This binary is able to zoom on my virtualboxed winXP. (I still have to find a way to get rid of the ListLibraryContents.sh problem) ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de - not happy with moderation of geda-user mailinglist Got pcb-20110916-2.exe zooming too with: - Keys z and Z - Pull down menu - Scroll wheel Thanks guys. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Colin D Bennett Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 6:43 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: CERN goes for KiCAD On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 13:16:23 +0200 Rubén Gómez Antolí l...@mucharuina.com wrote: Is something how Kde us Gnome? Because after of years of desktop wars, both proyects colaborate in base (freedesktop) and expand his own style. There are something to learn in our own free software history? That's a good point. Where could things be best shared between KiCad and gEDA? Footprint editor ? https://github.com/bert/fped Fped lives in Ubuntu and Fedora, and maybe other distros, with support for KiCAD users. Anyone interested in a parametric footprint editor with support for pcb ? Just clone, add code and stuff, and send patches to here. This way we can have common files for interoptable footprints. While it would be nice to share a common schematic/PCB layout file format, that seems difficult given the different approaches taken by both tools. My initial thought is that the biggest value-to-effort ratio would be from being able realized by being able to share symbols and footprints between the tools. Of course even this has some serious difficulties: consider all the special attributes and such required for proper gschem symbols. Perhaps gschem's format is detailed enough that KiCad symbol information could be inferred from it. Footprints might be simpler to share since there seem to be fewer tool-specific details needed (just defining copper areas/pads, pins/holes, solder mask and paste, silk screen lines). Regards, Colin Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB segfaults when the Route style button isclicked
Hi Andrew, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Poelstra Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 4:05 PM To: k...@familieknaak.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB segfaults when the Route style button isclicked On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 04:53:08AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Ivan Stankovic wrote: I'm using PCB from git master (9dde48253c..) and it segfaults when the Route Styles button is clicked. Here's how to reproduce: 1. use PCB to make an empty pcb file 2. start PCB again and load the empty file with File - Load layout 3. choose Power route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 4. choose Signal route style, then click on the Route Styles button to bring up the dialog; close the dialog 5. repeat steps 3 and 4 in order, until PCB segfaults I can confirm. Current git head PCB segfaults on me, too. Sometimes on first iteration, sometimes later. Interestingly, it does not want to segfault if I do not load the previously saved empty layout. At step 3 I notice a difference: With the reloaded layout, the field for the route style name is empty. Maybe, this is a hint for the cause. Should be fixed in git head (c62863b2) now. Thanks for noticing this, guys -- this was a serious memory corruption issue. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Do whatever you want. Do what you think is important. Everybody is an individual. --Ron Paul Yesterday evening I looked into this for a couple of hours, without coming up with a solution. Just tested your commits, it's a confirmed fix. Did you include LP bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/pcb/+bug/844635 or are these patches still standing ? As a side effect I see that I can now add more new styles, dunno how much that was before yoru commits though. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 2:39 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...) https://github.com/bert/pcb-plugins.git This URL gives me 404 This is not the web page you are looking for. It works fine once you realize you have to take the .git off to change it from a repository to a web page. Seems a silly detail to me, but that's how it's set up on github. Yes, you're right, I accedentally gave the git clone URI. Sorry if I wasted some of your spare cycles. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: test repo
Hi DJ, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 6:52 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: test repo Maybe give a non-dev volunteer permission to make official development snapshots, similar to how Icarus Verilog has done in the past. Go for it, I say. It's Free Software, they don't need permission, they just need dedication. If they offer something useful, people will use it. Note that I do nightly snapshots of gaf, pcb, and gerbv as part of my build it for windows cron job: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/geda-windows/ but I only save the last three unique snapshots. Thanks for setting up such a service, a well kept secret until now, and let's keep this one quite as not to waken the wild hoards of windoze users ;-) I just downloaded the pcb-20110905.exe snapshot to check the GUI changes on my windoze XP box. Some minor bugs appear: 1) I can't zoom in using Z or z. 2) No transparency (GL) supported. 3) When loading a layout the file selector only displays the icons for the top 1 or 2 files/directories and the remaining entries only when hovered over (having focus). 4) the big font issue ... (probably solved in tomorrows snapshot) Should windoze users file bug reports in LP for these nightly windows snapshots too ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...)
Hi Bob, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 2:38 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: plugins (was: How can you help...) Documenting them however is a big deal. Is there even a comprehensive list of plugins that are done at a single place? https://github.com/bert/pcb-plugins.git Git clone if you like ;-) All bit rotten due to the nm-units and other less recent changes in upstream pcb git-HEAD. I will try to look into it and get it to compile against at least the latest stable release 20100929. Patches are welcome @ https://launchpad.net/pcb-plugins , or better, include them plugins in upstream ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: test repo
Hi Russell, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Russell Dill Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:21 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Cc: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: test repo with one checked-out version you know works, or maintain your own bugfix branch. Git head is where development happens, and when we're bringing in big changes, stuff breaks. This is why other projects like KiCAD provide a dedicated testing repo. Debian even has four stages (experimental, unstable, testing and stable). By the way, stuff also breaks with small changes. See the first commits of the new layer selector. gEDA PCB's developer and testing community is much smaller than Debian's. I don't know about a size comparison to KiCAD. The only way bugs can be fixed is by someone finding that it's broken in the first place. I fear that not only would the developer resources be there to maintain two separate branches, but the testing resources wouldn't be there either. Out of all the people testing on git HEAD, I think only you managed to find the large silk bug. This model is used with quite a bit of success in linux kernel development with the linux-next tree, so who knows, maybe it does have a place. I think the only way this gets solved is the suggestion that someone made of someone tagging semi-stable versions. Bug fix patches could be back-ported to those and at some point the branch could be abandoned for a newer semi-stable version. The nice thing about this solution is that it can easily scale based on how many people are willing to help maintain the various semi-stable branch points and don't depend on the core developers doing anything. Someone with a big enough itch to scratch could put something up on github today. Some of us have been there, done just that, and for some time: https://github.com/fruoff/pcb-fruoff.git https://github.com/jaredcasper/pcb.git https://github.com/peter-b/geda-gaf.git https://github.com/bert/pcb.git And maybe some more I didn't notice. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted?
Hi Thomas, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Oldbury Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 3:17 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: How to find which specific part of a PCB is shorted? When I delete the shorted objects (a microSD card connector, and a 3 pin header) the short location moves!! I can't see a short anywhere on this board. I've searched the PCB file for shorted thermals, no luck. Is there a patch which improves the functionality and actually locates the position of this short, or do I have to rip up large areas of my board until I get to it? Just my EUR 0.02 I was bitten once by a short because of a wrong layer stack up in pcb. You could check whether an inside layer is on the same side as [solder, component] side by accident. See pull down menu: File -- Preferences ... -- Layers -- Groups Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commandline option --menu-file
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Karl Hammar Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:35 AM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commandline option --menu-file Colin D Bennet: Actually, the GTK tear-off menus are currently broken. You can forget about GTK tear-off. The gtk devs has deprecated them and they will probably go away in the future [1]. Regards, /Karl Hammar [1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602882 -- - Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 I already read this thread [1] some time ago (2010-ish) and see things have not changed for the better. No need to spend time/effort for the geda-devs to fix a broken dead end. Better create a non-modal popup dialog when neeeded, instead of a tear-off menu. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. rant in sarcastic mode I think tear-offs are very useful in cautiously selected GUI designs and throwing them out of the window looks like an example of dictatorship with backroom politcs and to have or not to have commit access. If maintaining features is a burden, then let's remove some more, or even better, all features from GTK so to make life of the GTK-developers easier, and this waye even more users will disapointed. If one is not up to the job (a.k.a. wannabee), please do not accept it, you're sitting in the seat of a better developer. I know I'm not a (very) good C developer, so I stay out of the way. /rant ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Hi Andrew and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Poelstra Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 9:52 AM To: k...@familieknaak.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:08:34AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: This advantage wears off as the user uses the feature more often. Using layers is very basic to PCB. Typical use switches layers very often in a session. Because of this, long term aspects become more important, like efficient use of screen real estate and good visibility of important aspects. Eye icons would demand an additional share of space that cannot be used for the canvas. Greyed out buttons buttons are a very intuitive and obvious way to signal invisibility. Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ Looks nice ;-) I assume that ground is the active layer ? BTW, we could truncate layernames in buttons: solder mask-- mask rat lines -- rats pins/pads -- leads To save some screen real estate. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Hi Andrew and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Poelstra Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:02 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 07:31:24AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ The radiobuttons on the left were used for the selection of the active layer and behave 1 out of many (1ooM). The (coloured) buttons with layernames on the right were used for visibility of a layer(group). And yes there is some dead space betewwen the latter buttons and the canvas. IMHO, the former proposal with visibilty buttons without rectangles is the improvement we are looking for, and we should exploit screen real estate more aggressively and maybe even go as far as truncate layernames to 6..8 chars. Whatever we change, we should keep the (shortened) layernames in the button to assist our colourblind users. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Bug in 'FreeRotateBuffer()'? (WAS: Re: Line Thickness in Imported DXF Files; Rotating by Arbitrary Angle; UTF-8)
Hi Gus and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Gus Fantanas Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:57 AM To: DJ Delorie Cc: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: Bug in 'FreeRotateBuffer()'? (WAS: Re: Line Thickness in Imported DXF Files; Rotating by Arbitrary Angle; UTF-8) On 08/14/2011 03:16 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: OK, so is there any option in pcb to rotate by an angle other than 90 degrees? Cut :FreeRotateBuffer(45) Paste Thank you so much for your response. Using PCB, I created a footprint for the PDS760 Schottky diode (PowerDI®5 package). I have pasted its ASCII file below. When I apply 'FreeRotateBuffer()' to that footprint, the big pad (pin 1) and the silkscreen rotate fine, but the two small square pads (2 and 3) do not. Their centers rotate, but the pads themselves do not. Is it a bug or did I do something wrong when I created the footprint? I have verified the problem with 45° and 60° rotations. Here is the footprint file. The guardband is probably overly liberal, but for now it can do the job for me: Element[ D? 27500 15000 -6500 9500 0 100 ] ( Pad[-14383 124 -8478 124 13228 2000 14228 1 square] Pad[4239 3745 4239 3745 5512 2000 6512 2 square,edge2] Pad[4239 -3499 4239 -3499 5512 2000 6512 3 square,edge2] ElementLine [-23000 -8500 -23000 8500 500] ElementLine [9000 -8500 -23000 -8500 500] ElementLine [9000 8500 9000 -8500 500] ElementLine [-23000 8500 9000 8500 500] ) Congrats with the footprint, some minor caveats though: I googled for a datasheet and found one from Diodes, page 4 gives 1.39 mm by 1.40 mm for the left and right pads, so this FreeRotateBuffer() Heisenbug should go away by itself. Oh, and the marker is not in the Centre Of Gravity, so no easy pick-and-place part from a 5000 units / tape reel ;-) @KMK: there are no half bugs, bugs are boolean by nature, so either 0 or 1 should do ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Can i use geda for electric indoor installation?
Hi Jonas, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Jonas Stein Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:07 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: Can i use geda for electric indoor installation? i want to make a scheme like this: http://images.autodesk.com/emea_dach_main_germany/images/2g_ac adelec_2012_auto_wire_number_1_large_1264x711.jpg Is geda the right tool for it? Has anyone experience with that? Do you have some screenshots of nice schemes of house electric indoor installation? Additional information like wiretype or wire ID would be nice to have next to the line of the wire. Kind regards, -- Jonas Stein n...@jonasstein.de The screenshot looks like a ladderdiagram for a plc. There happens to be a app for this at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicladder/ I've made some ladder diagram symbols for use with gschem: https://github.com/bert/gschem-symbols/tree/master/ladder Have fun ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: zview/ngscope
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 11:00 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: zview/ngscope rickman wrote: When I had the need for an interactive waveform viewer that could also be driven by an application, I had good success with xmgrace http://plasma-gate.weizmann.ac.il/Grace/ It is fully scriptable and can produce publication quality plots, too. Would any of these be suitable for a real time update of an o'scope display? This is what I meant by the preceding comment: There is an api to xmgrace that allows any application written in C to feed values to the GUI and make it update the graphs. So the GUI can show the data while they pour in. The user still has full GUI control over zoom, pan and the various aspects of graph scaling. Graphs can be linear, log scale, rectangular, or polar. Data points can be all kinds of shapes, with or without error margins. No 3D-imaging, though. Be aware, that there is a down side: The project has grind to a virtual stand still since a few years now. The proposed, complete rewrite that would be grace6 looks like it will never be finished. I'm just batting around some ideas and would like to find some software to base an o'scope UI on. You mean some kind of code re-use? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 Hmm, ftp://plasma-gate.weizmann.ac.il/pub/grace/src/devel/gracegtk-0.3.1_2011_03_ 29_10h08.tgz Has a date: 03/29/2011 09:20 2,554,540 gracegtk-0.3.1_2011_03_29_10h08.tgz Seems to need 2.12 gtk 2.16 so YMMV Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: subcircuit definition and channelised design
Hi -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:12 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: subcircuit definition and channelised design Geoff Swan wrote: I am relatively new to gEDA - so I thought I would find out if this is theoretically possible (or been done before) before I start trying to write my own script... What you describe seems like the sub sheet wizard which is on the wish list of many users. Yes, this sounds useful and very much so. Seems to me, that it has not been done before -- at least not in a way that has been described in gpleda.org. Looking forward to your solution, ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get FWIW, I have saved this shell script for generating schematic pages into symbols. To be found at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/downloads/geda_sch2sym.tar.gz #!/bin/bash # gEDA - GNU Electronic Design Automation # geda_sch2sym.bsh # Copyright (C) 2007 Andrew Tan Says it all. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Google Summer of Code 2011
Hi John, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Griessen Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 4:17 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Google Summer of Code 2011 On 03/05/2011 05:04 AM, Peter Clifton wrote: It depends on the primitives used - but I expect it is not too hard either way. SVG does of course support a lot of things which RS-274X cannot though. OK. YOU can make SVG that is easily translatable, but if you had a footprint tool that used it because so much content is available from other sources, you might get the outlined content very often and have to convert it to stroked lines. Having a translator would enable using SVG, but using SVG would not allow importing-to-PCB of any kind of drawn trace until you created an outline-filling-in routine so you have the RS-274X compatible stroked line primitives. So, the essence of what's needed to get more easy use of existing drawing tools like inkscape is a SVG--PCB translator with an outline-filling-in routine. Then you could make a stand alone tool based on inkscape if coding seemed easier that way. Otherwise basing it on PCB, (requiring scheme and maybe C to do it), is it. John FWIW, I'm trying to code a pcb footprint plug into the existing Kicad module editor fped Have a clone at: https://github.com/bert/fped.git It's currently still a work in progress: I have to split up the multifile Kicad modules and cross check the whole thing over. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Google Summer of Code 2011
Hi Stefan, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Tauner Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 1:49 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Google Summer of Code 2011 On Wed, 02 Mar 2011 01:37:05 +0100 Kai-Martin Knaak k...@lilalaser.de wrote: Projects galore: http://geda.seul.org/wiki/gsoc2010_projects The projects for gaf, gschem and pcb have even been labled with the supposed difficulty. Two caveats: Google has a tendency to focus on projects that aim in direction of some of their strategic goals. Unfortunately, electronic hardware does not fit. So it has hot been accepted to GSoC in 2010. The other caveat: Don't choose an overly ambitious project, even if it is as cool as liquid nitrogen. Ask Anthony Blake for the reason... well we can't do anything about google's tendency, but write a convincing application i guess. i'm quite ambitious usually, but i know what i can do and what i can not. and i usually finish something, if i start and think the outcome will be useful (well... usually... and it may take a while... or two :) and having a deadline tends to help me a lot to finish a project, so i think this is a advantage of gsoc instead of contributing the normal foss way. the existing proposals i find interesting can be divided in two parts: stand-alone projects and modifications of existing applications. since i was only involved in hacking around gerbv (and there only on the gui layer), i think it would make more sense to try a stand-alone thingy. to sustain motivation i would be glade if the final product would scratch my own itch. my idea is some combination of the existing propsals: - Gschem parts manager or parts database (glue) - IPC Footprint Calculator (pcb) and my own idea: a stand-alone pcb footprint editor. one of the most boring and hideous things when creating a new layout is creating new footprints imho. using metric suffixes in pcb's .fp files helps, but it is still far from AWESOME :) editing is a pita too (due to the single reference point). creating a Gerber to .pcb file exporter (gerbv section of the proposals) could be interesting too. i don't need it but i can see its usefulness. the question is how often is this needed/requested? adding drc stuff to gerbv sounds also interesting although i'm not sure how feasable. i'm also thinking about applying for a gsoc project for etherboot or coreboot. that's not a threat, i just want to be overt. :) -- Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner I hope not to discourage you ;-) Fped is a footprint editor for Kicad modules. I'm currently coding an addition for creating pcb footprints, which is almost done, I only have to create and send a patch to the main dev of fped. Information regarding fped can be found here: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/fped/gui.html and here: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-electronic-lab/wiki/PCB/fped The source lives here: http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/fped/ I'm trying to code a footprint wizard myself at: https://github.com/bert/pcb-fpw And https://launchpad.net/pcb-fpw And https://github.com/bert/pcb-fpw/wiki/User-Manual-for-pcb-gfpw This one is aimed to be more resembling with the IPC Footprint Calculator without violating IP and such. I hope to release version 0.0.11 this month. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: General Layers questions
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Boettcher Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 10:17 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: General Layers questions Kai-Martin Knaak k...@lilalaser.de writes: Martin did not ask for a general pcb wish list, but for an in depth discussion of a single topic. A discussion where most people cannot contribute? What is wrong with this list for discussion? -- Stephan Maybe this is a good opportunity to start using Blueprints on Launchpad, these can be linked to bugs, milestones and thus releases. AFAICT, these are for code specific write ups and ideas. This gives the roadmap a possible timeline (relative or absolute), date are not mandatory, I think the devs like to work without pressure of calender deadlines ;-). The positive side effect can be that it keeps traffic on both geda-dev and geda-user low, and ideas can be tracked for progress. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Open Collector Error Checking
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 10:34 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Open Collector Error Checking On Mon, 2011-02-14 at 13:31 -0800, Jared Casper wrote: Maybe make an official LP tag of vetted or something that junior developers can add to a patch, allowing a senior dev to concentrate on those first, not spending on time on patches that need work. Sounds like a good idea - call it patch-tested or something? We should probably set up a team as a place-holder to get assigned as a job-list for patches which are ready to be pushed. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) Maybe add a LP user geda-push and/or pcb-push (or geda-dev and/or pcb-dev), and assign to this user. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Advanced grids in GTK Pcb
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of jpka Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:04 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: Advanced grids in GTK Pcb Hi! I'm currently working on advanced user grid management for pcb. Anyone interested in this? Or maybe want to beta-testing my code? Example: http://img202.imageshack.us/i/pcbgrids.jpg/ (values are editable in this table) Also, currently nobody works on grids, or i'm wrong? I also need help in translation my work to lesstif's pcb, i'm was notified that more chances to see my code in main tree if i will work on both GTK lesstif. This is my first post in newsgroup in my life, sorry if anything is wrong. I writing only to web forums before. Nice that you start up your own things in such a short time. Maybe it's an idea to look into minor and major grid lines or dots, as was introduced in gschem some time ago. This, and the nice font rendering, are a very appreciated features. Just my EUR 0.02 on the subject Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: New Column: From the CAD Library
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 3:49 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: New Column: From the CAD Library On Fri, 2011-02-04 at 08:17 -0500, Bob Paddock wrote: New Column: From the CAD Library When creating a CAD library, there are dozens of things to consider that are often overlooked or not even considered that will directly affect the quality of part placement, via fanout, trace routing, post processing, fabrication, and assembly processes. This article, Part 1 of a series, introduces aspects that should be considered when creating CAD library parts. http://www.pcbdesign007.com/pages/zone.cgi?a=74214 Has tips worth considering. Note that the series continues on his blog. It is VERY good, and contains a lot of details I was looking for recently. http://blogs.mentor.com/tom-hausherr/ -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) +1 I've been following Tom Hausherr's achievements (the formerly PCB-Libaries, now Mentor Graphics) for a couple of years now, and I think that this blog is mandatory reading before Getting Started with pcb design. I would like to see some, if not all, of these standards reflected in the pcb-lib some day _and_ these recommendations end up in the (gEDA) pcb documentation, just to prevent error 404 from happening. Of course, there are others sources of information to read before putting the first trace on a pcb, like app notes and part datasheets from vendors. One of Tom's issues that is to be kept in pcb are most of the mil grids because of the bazillion perf board and mil based parts on the market, to be bought for cheap by hobby-ists, or for Quick-and-Neat proto boards (we don't play or do dirty ;-). Just my opinion on the subject. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: locknames - ignorenames ?
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:17 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: locknames - ignorenames ? Hi. While teaching students howto use geda/pcb, I found myself explain that lock-names does not really a lock but an ignore flag. Because, this is how it operates under the hood. In addition, the lock meme does not quite fit to the behavior. You'd expect locked text to stay in place whatever you do. But of course the names of components do move if a component is moved. Proposal: Rename Lock_Names to Ignore_Names (in the menu and in the source) Any objection? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user If the lock mechanism is not broken, please do not try to fix it ;-) This is a great opportunity to create all sorts of Heissenbugs for not so often used code paths. If it's just semantics then please let this issue remain as it is, that is: in a locked in place state. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Thermals on Pads
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of rickman Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:11 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Thermals on Pads On 1/31/2011 10:33 AM, Martin Kupec wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:13:27PM -0500, rickman wrote: On 1/30/2011 4:47 PM, Martin Kupec wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 04:37:17PM -0500, rickman wrote: What geometry problems do you have? There are plenty of references in regard to thermals. I don't recall seeing any other than bridges that span a uniform gap around the pad. The only variation I can recall is the number and rotation angle of the pattern. But most, if not all that I have seen use four bars either along the x and y axes or at 45 degree angles. I think there are even some built in commands for this in the RS-274X Gerber file spec. Or am I missing something? We already do support bridges with rounded corners. And what we do not support is anything suitable for TSOP package pads(long thin pads near to each other). But the big problem with you current implementations is the size of the bridges. The size is somewhat magicaly calculated from the size of pin and from the size of clerance. But this is neighter working nor probably right. With big clerance the shape becomes completly bogus(at least for the rounded versions). That surprises me that the bridge width would be calculated rather than specified. What's the idea behind that? Isn't it a simple matter to let the designer pick the dimensions both for the width of the bridge and the width of the clearance? I would not argue against it. So shall we change the code in a way, that older files gets current calculation and newer ones has thermal specification in file? This opens discussion how/what to specify. Martin Kupec Is there a way to support both compatibly? If the data is to be specified, it will need to be stored in the design file. If that info is there, use it, if the info is not present let the software determine the values be used? I would think the only issue is determining a file format that would allow the info to be optional yet compatible with existing formats without the info. Rick Maybe use attributes here ? Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Bug triage
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven Michalske Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:56 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Bug triage Maybe we are targetting the wrong OS ;-( Nope, I like my mac os install, and engineering colleges are seeing a large uptick in mac usage in colleges. It is a perk to have a computer that can OS X, Linux, and Windows. Maybe the unofficial windows ports are more important than we think ;-) It is important to have easy to install packages. I find installing source packages trivial, but I am not the average user. My colleges that want an install for OSX dislike need to install xcode, mac ports and compiling the whole deal. One of these days I will study how Inkscape makes their OS X package and make one for gschem and pcb. I will look into these statistics this evening, to have an informed opinion. We can't have that ;-P only uninformed conjecture! Steve Yesterday evening I found the following DownLoads (D/L) statistics, until I got bored: File WIN LIN MAC BSD *** SF My Total Total geda-suite-0.0.2.tar.bz210 424-1 820 57 geda-gaf-1.6.1.tar.gz 279 106 2618 420420 verilog-20090923.tar.gz 1032-325 18 verilog-0.9.2.tar.gz 822-119 13 pcb-20091103.tar.gz 841-119 14 ng-spice-rework-20.tar.gz 1722 14-2 276190 gwave2-20090213.tar.gz 821-117 12 gtkwave-3.3.0.tar.gz 751-119 14 gspiceui-v0.9.98.tar.gz 721-115 11 gnucap-2009-12-07-tools.tar.gz 1021-118 14 (incomplete) IMHO: 1) the 147 k D/Ls looks like a (realistic ?) number of total D/L for all gEDA related packages and files ever. 2) SF math s*cks ! I hope Launchpad does it's math better. Just my somewhat more informed opinion ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Bug triage
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:35 AM To: k...@lilalaser.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Bug triage On Mon, 2011-01-10 at 02:18 +0100, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: Over the years, the download count integrated to an astonishing 150.000 Look at the source downloads for the latest release though: https://sourceforge.net/projects/pcb/files/pcb/pcb-20100929/pc b-20100929.tar.gz/stats/os Only 50% Linux downloads, 25% Windows again. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) Maybe we are targetting the wrong OS ;-( Maybe the unofficial windows ports are more important than we think ;-) I will look into these statistics this evening, to have an informed opinion. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Launchpad: pcb next-bug-release
Hi all, On https://launchpad.net/pcb/+milestone/next-bug-release I see some bugs marked with the status fix-released. IMO these should aleady be included in the latest release of pcb (20100929) and not in the list for the pending bug release, or should have the status fix commited. Could anyone please give some clarification ? Let us avoid unnecessary rework on the status of bugs before these bugs drop out of sight. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad up running [was: SourceForge bugtrackers frozen]
Hi Peter Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter TB Brett Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 1:59 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad up running [was: SourceForge bugtrackers frozen] On Thursday 06 January 2011 16:38:59 Peter TB Brett wrote: Hi folks, In case you're wondering where the gEDA/gaf bug trackers at SourceForge.net have disappeared to, they've been shut down so that no new changes occur while Peter C gets the bugs imported to their new home at Launchpad.net. The conversion has now been completed, and we're just waiting for Launchpad admins to run the import process: https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/140410 Import done. The new place to find gEDA bugs is: http://bugs.launchpad.net/geda Note that it's possible to associate a Launchpad account with all your imported bugs by merging your account with the automatically created virtual account from Sourceforge. You can get access to this by clicking on your name in a bug report (Kai-Martin, I'm *certain* you'll want to make use of this feature. ;-) ) Peter -- Peter Brett pe...@peter-b.co.uk Remote Sensing Research Group Surrey Space Centre Congrats with what looks like being a job well done ;-) And of course there will always be some wrinkles to iron out: - updating the links on various web pages and/or wiki pages on gEDA and pcb web sites. - merge some users IDs, existing on both systems (LP + SF), a merge needs to be confirmed from SF in some unclear way. - maybe add a short list what status means what in LP on a wiki page pointing to LP / or on LP itself, we do not all speak English as a native language. Or should I report these in the LP bugs systems with more precise details and/or patches ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup?
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Mark Rages Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:03 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup? On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:06 PM, DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: Phil Taylor p...@plastitar.com writes: Why isn't there a user-guide? http://www.delorie.com/pcb/docs/ The developer's reference seems a little thin. Are there any plans to update it? Regards, Mark markra...@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com Which reminds me I have to upgrade the pcb dox at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/gaf/dox.html Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol question - suggestions?
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Salewski Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:23 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Symbol question - suggestions? On Wed, 2011-01-05 at 14:32 +0100, Johnny Rosenberg wrote: A single 74_pwr.sym can not work for 14 and 16 pin parts, so I really recommend to do not use a 74_pwr.sym at all, but one for 14, and one for 16 pins devices. I think I called my one at gedasymbols 74xx-14N-Pwr-1.sym. But the 74LV4066 is 14-pin with GND at 7 and Vcc at 14, just like an ordinary 7400 and more. The problem is: If you have a symbol called 74_pwr.sym people may use it -- some may use it for 14 pin devices, some may use it for 16 pin devices. You may be smart enough to use it correctly -- other may not always. If there are chances for confusion, then we should use more specific files names. JCL has a nice script generating power pins with pn numbers in the file/link name: http://www.luciani.org/geda/util/util-index.html#create-np-symbols Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup?
Hi Kai-Martin , -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:30 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup? Bert Timmerman wrote: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/gaf/dox.html IMHO, this resource should be linked to in a prominent way on gpleda. Currently, there is just a link hidden in the section Doxygen Comments and Styles of the devel-tips http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:devel-tips?#doxygen_comments_a nd_styles How about a dedicated link in the Developer Documentation section of the wiki start page? Would it be possible to provide the pages on gpleda.org itself? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get That can be done, it's just a couple of MB to upload. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup?
Hi Kai-Martin, maintainers and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 12:25 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Wiki cleanup? Bert Timmerman wrote: Would it be possible to provide the pages on gpleda.org itself? That can be done, it's just a couple of MB to upload. Question to the maintainers of gpleda.org(*): Would it be possible to give upload permissions to Bert? ---)kaimartin(--- (*) Anyone else beyond Ales? -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 Uploading by someone who has already access/write permissions is also a possibility, or one could run doxygen on the server itself to save traffic. Even better would be a service hook (generated by git) to give (a tool like crontab) a signal whenever a commit has occurred and the doxygen dev-docs of the git repo need an update (every ?? hours). I will see if I can create a wiki like format and paste that into the doxygen output as to mimick the current style of the webpages on gpleda.org. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. BTW: Doxygen 1.4.6. gives less bloat than the newer versions for if you want to limit the disk usage 300 MB on the server. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values.
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 4:32 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values. Bert Timmerman wrote: ARE there any current gEDA developers? Yes, I think there is lots of patches or patch series in SF to prove that. For 2010 there were exactly 16 patches in the geda tracker: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=161080atid=818428 I wouldn't call this lots of. None of these patches was supplied by one of the people mentioned in gpleda.org/people.html ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Sorry for the confusion, looks like I did not have the right glasses on, I made my remark w.r.t. the pcb patch tracker. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: bugs, warts and feature requests (3)
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 5:37 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: bugs, warts and feature requests (3) Bert Timmerman wrote: pcb feature request: Please put all the gerbers in a dedicated subdir of the working directory by default. The name of the subdir should be configurable. Is doable. pcb feature request: Optionally zip all gerbers and the cnc files to yield a single file that can be sent to the fab. The name of the zip file might contain the current date. Is doable You mean, it can already be done? How? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Issues 1 and 2 can be done by means of a Makefile, TBH I have no such Makefile lingering around, but remain confident that requested functionality is within the reach of make-and-friends. Issue 1 could also be coded into the gerber exporter if this were a Frequently Asked Feature, AFAIK this is not the case. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: [Pcb PATCH SF ID: 3148827] First issue of the Dutch translation for pcb.
Hi devs and users, Subject says it all. Patches can be found here: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailaid=3148827group_id=73743atid= 538813 Or here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/downloads/pcb-dutch/ Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values???
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of ge...@igor2.repo.hu Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 7:06 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Resistor values??? On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 09:23:17PM -0500, Mark wrote: snip So, because I use several methods, a single one-size-fits-all library is just not going to work for me. I *could* make use of a library of heavy symbols but I still need the lightweight symbols, too. If I was forced to choose one library then I would like to keep the lightweight stuff. Maybe we should extend existing library in a way that we clone existing symbols, prefix the names by use case and add/delete attributes. Since the currently available library wouldn't change at all, no existing schematics would be broken. We now have resistor-1.sym and resistor-2.sym; we woulg then have these cloned as _P_resistor-1.sym and _P_resistor-2.sym, _P_ meaning they are intended for use on PCB. Of course, this would increase the confusion of new users, but it should be no harder than getting the L/N/M suffix of some SMD footpritns in PCB. Regards, Tibor Palinkas Or a symbol with a name which goes something like: resistor-4pcb.sym resistor-4pcb-1.sym drawn in Imperial style. resistor-4pcb-2.sym drawn in European style. resistor-4pcb-zerolengthpins-1.sym drawn in Imperial style, with zero length pins. resistor-4pcb-zerolengthpins-2.sym drawn in European style, with zero length pins. The possibilites are endless as gschem offers great flexibility ;-) IMHO Users should take care of the needed content for thier own purposes, the gEDA suite itself only has to offer a basic set of symbols/footprints to get users started, and encourage sharing content on gedasymbols.org. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Working on a tiny schematics editor
Hi Stefan, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Salewski Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 2:49 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Working on a tiny schematics editor On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 19:31 +0200, Stefan Salewski wrote: Some weeks ago I started working on a very basic schematics editor, compatible with current gschem file format. I am writing it in Ruby, using GTK/Cairo. No, the project is not death... I just managed to draw to a GTK drawing area, with zooming/panning/scrolling support. So very friendly people may already consider it a viewer for gschem schematics :-) See bottom of this page: http://www.ssalewski.de/PetEd-Demo.html.en I think one reason for start writing it was my desire to assign attributes/classes to subnets, to transfer this information to PCB to support manually- and auto-routing with already specified parameters for traces. I think, even if Anthonys Toporouter is in deep coma currently, such an application makes still some sense. So I can not promise that I will NOT continue this effort. I would be interested how many people can run the demo script (peted.rb) from the top of the above page. Are the needed rcairo bindings shipped with distributions like Ubuntu? If not, then it may be easier for people to install the whole gEDA package than to get such a short ruby script running. :-( Best wishes for the new year, Stefan Salewski Congrats, Works like a charm on Fedora 13 (after ÿum install ruby-gtk2 which includes rcairo as adependancy). Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ? (was: Toporouter crashing in GIThead on seemingly simple circuits)
Hi KMK, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 1:08 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: gEDA Wikibook ? (was: Toporouter crashing in GIThead on seemingly simple circuits) Bert Timmerman wrote: Why not create a wikibook ? Great idea! I am in for starting such a book. Also count me in for tips and tricks of wikipedia formating. My other computer activity is the physics department in German wikipedia... Of course, a wikibook can't replace the pcb manual. Important parts of the manual are automatically derived from source comments. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Just MHO I don't think it's a Good Thing (TM) that a User Manual is derived from source code files, for this would require a person with gEDA-dev priviliges to push changes into the git repository. This workflow raises the threshold to contribute to user documentation and adds to the burden of the gEDA-devs (they have ample time for reviewing patches). In the past we have __had__ an experiment with noweb for gaf (past tense for good reasons), I'd rather keep things simple. If documentation needs to be generated from source code files let it just be (API reference) docs for (future/newbie) gEDA-devs and use Doxygen in pcb too (for obvious reasons). /MHO Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA-dev: Dev list [was: Random thoughts onthe future interface of PCB]
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-dev-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-dev-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:11 PM To: gEDA developer mailing list Cc: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-dev: gEDA-user: Dev list [was: Random thoughts onthe future interface of PCB] Perhaps the time has come to reconsider the role of and access to the gEDA-dev list? How can we ensure that it doesn't collapse into an unproductive bikeshedfest again? I would be amenable to defining the geda-dev list as those who have commit access somewhere (pcb, geda, icarus, etc) and start being more open to new developers. GCC has various levels of maintainers that perhaps we could emulate? There are four levels (or were): 1. Global maintainers, who can do anything anywhere. ATM they're listed as global reviewers who can approve anything but their own patches, but we're not that big yet. 2. Area maintainers, who can do anything in their area. 3. Area reviewers, who can approve other people's patches in their areas but not their own. 4. Write after approval - can commit if one of the above OKs it, can't approve anything for anyone else. The current situation is we have a few #1, a few #2, and nobody else. I'd like to build up the #3 and #4 groups. shameless plug If the #3's and #4's (or anyone else for that matter) were to have thier own fork of the area they are involved with, and the #2's (and only if needed the #1's) could git cherry-pick from these forks (after discussion, prodding, tweaking etc. and final agreement) with a couple of mouse clicks that would be nice Github has automated pull requests, fork queues, an integrated issues system, configurable post commit hooks, comments on commits, wiki pages (for your personal dev-blog), on-line editing files, etc etc -- Github rocks, just have a look at https://github.com/features/projects /shameless plug Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA-dev: Dev list [was: Random thoughts onthe future interface of PCB]
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:04 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Cc: 'gEDA developer mailing list' Subject: Re: gEDA-user: gEDA-dev: Dev list [was: Random thoughts onthe future interface of PCB] On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 20:46 +0100, Bert Timmerman wrote: shameless plug ... your personal dev-blog), on-line editing files, etc etc -- Github rocks, ... /shameless plug Do you work advertising for GitHub in your spare time Bert? ;) Yup, because I try to find a possible solution, and not add to the problem ;-) If it is a solution for gEDA and friends to get more developers, more contributions, speed-up development ... Github is free as in beer ... The gEDA #1 can still keep the golden repositories on a file server in a basement somewhere ... gEDA and friends can even keep the SF tracker system ... It's not based on competition, it's based on cooperation ... I guess no-one looses anything, it could be a win-win situation ... if it adds another burden and doesn't work then drop it, I will not have hard feelings, that is not in my nature ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: comments on gcode generation (was: Re: exportingsingle pcb layers)
Hi Markus, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Markus Hitter Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:48 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: comments on gcode generation (was: Re: exportingsingle pcb layers) Am 30.11.2010 um 16:29 schrieb chrysn: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 08:29:31AM +0100, Alberto Maccioni wrote: in the process of cnc-milling a pcb with a custom shape using pcb2gcode [1], i created a polygon on a separate layer... Have you ever tried the g-code exporter included in PCB? I've never been able to make pcb2gcode work with minimally complex boards. i just did so, and found out there are some reasons i'll -- at least for the time being -- will continue to use external tools: * no voronoi mode: all the other tools (see below) support a mode where they fill the unused area of the board with the closest net. this cuts the machining time down to less than 50%. Yes, this would be a very welcome addition. Is there a pure C library with this stuff available somewhere? Java or C++ isn't an option for inclusion with gEDA. http://www.qhull.org There happens to live a git repo here: git://gitorious.org/qhull/qhull.git Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 11:53 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling Patrick Doyle wrote: On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:01 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_F X_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? Reading https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_FAQ#What_is_COLLADA.3F I believe COLLADA is a format mainly concerned about DCC (digital content creation). It's probably very good at meshes, textures and some freeform surfaces, but I didn't see anything about geometric primitives like spheres, cylinders dimensions and layers. Don't confuse rigid body with solid geometry. Maybe my view is to pessimistic, but one needs to read the spec to prove. Just my thoughts on this matter: The COLLADA FAQ says (amongst many other things): Q: Are COLLADA documents included as part of games? A: COLLADA is not designed to be used as a final game format. COLLADA allows 3D content to be created in any 3D package, exported to COLLADA format and edited with a variety of tools from different vendors. Once the content is finalized, it is usually processed into whatever format is most efficient for the game engine and hardware platform being used. AFAICT, THE COLLADA format can transport 3D-data from A to many Bs. 3D data can either be a set of vertexes or primitives. It does not solve the primitives versus vertexes discussion for us, that is a decision the pcb dev/user community has to make, or just do both so the user has a choice. A pcb exporter (or plugin) will still have to generate this 3D data. Do you take the blue pill or the red pill, Neo ? For now I continue with the OpenSCAD route. When and if this gets to work according to my expectations, as I hope it will (there are some limitations that need be solved on the OpenSCAD side), then maybe gEDA can get some leverage in the Makerbot and Reprap communities. There seems to a variety of encasings for pcbs made with them plastruders. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4071 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3944 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3665 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3559 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3372 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3363 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2982 Printable RC filter redux (should have been done with pcb) http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2360 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1904 Parametric QF Breakout Board (should have been done with pcb) http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1716 Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: STEP Format? [WAS: Re: PCB+GL+3D Packages??]
Hi John, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Griessen Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:13 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: STEP Format? [WAS: Re: PCB+GL+3D Packages??] On 11/19/2010 05:02 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 13:06 -0800, Colin D Bennett wrote: That suits me just fine.. OpenGL_likes_ rendering triangles, and anyother geometry primitives are extra work to implement;) But wouldn't support for higher-level shapes be superior to triangle meshes for high-quality renderings (e.g., raytracing, etc.)? Is the goal for PCB 3D support intended to be primarily for high-quality renderings or for real-time viewing of and interaction with the 3D scene? Primarily for the latter (at the moment). There's another format sweet home 3D uses, .obj, that could be good for parametric modeling and easy to parse: http://www.sweethome3d.com/support/forum/viewthread_thread,940 John Griessen I just tried to look into an AOI portable.obj model of a laptop -- 580 kB zipped and 2.8 MB expanded. Nice ubunto logo though ;-) Nah, thanks, I think it's a bit too expensive on memory and IMHO vertexes resemble minced meat -- try putting it together to get the original cow ;-) I'd rather have 3D primitives like cubes, cylinders, spheres, toroids etc. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 4:01 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) It might be easier to do 3D in a different way: Teach the 3D CAD application how to read pcb files. Then, let the CAD app retrieve 3D models that correspond to the footprints mentioned in the layout. Use the 3D engine to render images, or do mechanical engineering. Also teach the CAD app to export pcb layout data from 2D shapes. The pcb file format contains all information needed to reproduce the geometry of the board in a concise form. Given the ability of general python scripting within the 3D CAD, it shouldn't be that hard to write a *.pcb parser. Once the geometry is known to the CAD app, it can export it to whatever format its engine supports. If the CAD app can be driven completely by scripting, the conversion could be triggered from within a pcb menu. Benefits: * no need to write import/export functions for general 3D data exchange formats. * only deal with well known file formats (*.pcb) * efficient file transfer to a 3D CAD which keeps names objects rather anonymous shapes Drawbacks: * no fancy 3D images in a stand-alone binary of pcb * beautiful images might need blender as a third major component. * ties to a specific 3D CAD app, which may not be everybodies favorite choice Just an idea from my way home... ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Have a look at: http://openscad.org/ And the beginning of an OpenSCAD exporter for pcb, on top of a recent (current) clone of the pcb git repository: https://github.com/bert/pcb-openscad Please give me your thoughts and opinions on both. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL+3D Packages??
Hi Peter and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 3:37 AM To: geda-user Subject: gEDA-user: PCB+GL+3D Packages?? An actual rendering from PCB+GL with some code I've been playing with... http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_pack ages_mockup.png Not currently pushed to any repository, this hard-codes a search for ACY400 footprints (as used on this board), and renders a 3D model for each resistor. (The 3D model is defined in C code, not a generic format at the moment). I have been playing with 1D texturing to put stripes on the resistors - albeit not actually with the correct value at this stage.. but it IS possible ;) Questions: 1. Does anyone care about seeing this land in PCB? 2. Will anyone bother to make 3D models for packages? 3. What format would people like to make models in? I'm thinking VRML (perhaps as output by Wings32) might be a good choice, as I believe this is what KiCad uses. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) The screenshot looks nice ;-) Some questions come to mind: 1) Are the resistors modelled with 3D- primitives like spheres/cylinders, or are they modelled with 3D-faces ? 2) Are we (the pcb-devs) going to teach pcb to do the modelling, or do we just export the information for creating 3D-views to a separate utility/application ? I'm testing the feasibility of coding/using an OpenSCAD exporter for the above purpose, this looks promising, but at this moment I can give no 100 % guarantee of this becoming a viable solution. However, OpenSCAD seems to have some (user) momentum in the MakerBot Thingieverse culture, and the OpenSCAD code resembles to be a small subset of the C programming language. At least one nifty thing OpenSCAD can do is extrude a geometry defined in a 2D DXF-file (made with QCAD for instance), this would allow for arbitrary shaped boards. I don't know weather OpenSCAD -- stl file -- G-code is a desirable work flow to get G-code files for a plastruder to create a 3D-mock-up of a non-electrically working pcb with components (plastruders by definition extrude (possibly non-conductive) plastics). OTOH, there is Blender, BRL-CAD, HeeksCAD to name a few. 3) I there any insight where to place the bet for our pcb monies (and coding time) ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL+3D Packages??
Hi John, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Griessen Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:50 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL+3D Packages?? On 11/15/2010 03:24 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: However, OpenSCAD seems to have some (user) momentum in the MakerBot Thingieverse culture, and the OpenSCAD code resembles to be a small subset of the C programming language. Interesting. At least one nifty thing OpenSCAD can do is extrude a geometry defined in a 2D DXF-file (made with QCAD for instance), this would allow for arbitrary shaped boards. Nice. HeeksCAD can do both those things and has python interface instead of a subset script language (another new language)...or it has a GUI to make sketches (2D outlines) from faces of solid primitives or from complex booleans of solids. Thingieverse culture is about quick easy copying mostly, not very good for revising designs. They mostly use STL. Reprap is the group that's been promoting openscad lately. I prefer HeeksCAD for the python interface. I'm adding a feature to that python interface today, and I was a newbie to HeeksCAD three weeks ago. JG Well, I better have a close look at HeeksCAD also. My python-fu is weak though ;-( Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test)
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:51 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test) On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 22:04 +0100, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: I've got a load of changes I've been working on recently in PCB+GL, this time on my local_customisation_no_pours branch. For those not familiar with git, these are the commands I ran to install Peters version in /usr/local/bin/pcb-test : / git clone git://repo.or.cz/geda-pcb/pcjc2.git cd pcjc2 git checkout -b local_customisation_no_pours Did this work and give you the 3D / GL stuff? (Does git automatically pick the right remote branch?) I would have done: git checkout -b local_customisation_no_pours origin/local_customisation_no_pours But since I learnt to do that some while back, things might have got easier since. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) I tried the above and ran into trouble with the requirement of gtkglext-1.0: there seems to be no such RPM package available for Fedora 13 ;-( So I will try to find (or build) and install a package this weekend. To be continued ... Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test)
Hi Rchard, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Richard Barlow Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 2:49 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test) Hi, On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 14:35 +0100, Bert Timmerman wrote: I tried the above and ran into trouble with the requirement of gtkglext-1.0: there seems to be no such RPM package available for Fedora 13 ;-( I'm running Fedora 13 and had no problems. Installing the gtkglext-devel package provides the necessary files. It does have fc12 in the version number but seems to be in the Fedora 13 repos. Richard I was under the impression that gtkglext-libs would supply the needed stuff. Running yum install gtkglext-devel did the trick. Thanks, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test)
Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bert Timmerman Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 2:35 PM To: 'gEDA user mailing list' Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test) Hi Peter, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:51 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL Testers (please test) On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 22:04 +0100, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: I've got a load of changes I've been working on recently in PCB+GL, this time on my local_customisation_no_pours branch. For those not familiar with git, these are the commands I ran to install Peters version in /usr/local/bin/pcb-test : / git clone git://repo.or.cz/geda-pcb/pcjc2.git cd pcjc2 git checkout -b local_customisation_no_pours Did this work and give you the 3D / GL stuff? (Does git automatically pick the right remote branch?) I would have done: git checkout -b local_customisation_no_pours origin/local_customisation_no_pours But since I learnt to do that some while back, things might have got easier since. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) I tried the above and ran into trouble with the requirement of gtkglext-1.0: there seems to be no such RPM package available for Fedora 13 ;-( So I will try to find (or build) and install a package this weekend. To be continued ... Kind regards, Bert Timmerman The LED2.pcb example gives: 1.2 ... 1.3 redraws per second on your local_customisation_no_pours branch. 15.8 redraws per second on your before_pours branch. 81.8 redraws per second on the pcb-20091103 (yum installed) out of the box RPM version . 59.8 redraws per second on pcb.gpleda.org/pcb.git HEAD (just sync'ed). 66.6 redraws per second on pcb-20100929 tarball. Hardware is a Packard Bell Notebook (MH35U070) 1.8GB with 1.89 MHz DualCore T2390 and SIS Mirage 3+ graphics (256 MB). Hope this helps a bit. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:36 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request Stefan Salewski wrote: The user base of brlCAD is marginal and will probably shrink even more, as more intuitive open source CAD applications will become a viable alternative. That may be true, but I am not really happy with the wording. Some kids may be tempted to do something like sed -i -e 's/brlCAD/gEDA-PCB/' Well, the usability of geda-PCB is not that far off-road. It is on par, or better than its main competitors kicad and eagle (in my humble opinion). That said, it is certainly true that geda looses potential users because of the command line thing. It makes the newbie expect the need for much more command line magic down the line. In reality, you just issue simple commands a few times per project. And you can avoid even these with xgsch2pcb or pcb-pull. These two work-flows really should be advertised more -- In the documentation, tutorial and in the articles in wikipedia. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Avoiding the command line won't help you on the gschem -- simulation work flow. Loosing potential users due to a command like thing is probably something a lot of *nix apps and tools suffer from. I can't help people who will not try to learn what is neccesary, or do whatever it takes, to solve their *own* problems. Sad, but true. IMHO there is no true hacker fu in them. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gschem guile scripting
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Salewski Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 10:50 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: gschem guile scripting On Sun, 2010-10-31 at 14:15 -0600, John Doty wrote: ... Some deleted stuff was here In my opinion PCB is much more complicated as gaf. My current estimation: Writing a gschem/gnetlist clone may take about 1000 hours for a smart guy employing modern tools like GTK/QT/Cairo/Pango and an OO language like C++/Java/Puby/Python... Writing a PCB clone should take much more time and needs really smart guys -- DRC (realtime), all the exporters (Gerber), autorouters, and fast 3D drawing. FYI according to ohloh.net: gEDA approx. 31 person years effort (http://www.ohloh.net/p/gEDA) Pcb approx. 32 person years effort (http://www.ohloh.net/p/pcb) The difference in LOC is not much larger: gEDA approx. 126k LOC (excluding blanks and comments). Pcb approx. 127K LOC (excluding blanks and comments). I think it's a draw ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Hi Vanessa, Have a look at OpenSACD at: http://openscad.org/ Runs on both windoze and linux (works for me on Fedora). There are some examples included. If your looking for EDA model stuff, I'm evaluating the feasibility of using this for pcb and have my stuff in a git repo at github. http://github.com/bert/openscad Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Vanessa Ezekowitz Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:56 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 17:31:28 +0200 Bert Timmerman bert.timmer...@xs4all.nl wrote: Anyone volunteering for the difficult part ? Ah, if only I knew some kind of true 3D modeling environment... Technical graphics/artwork is kind of a hobby for me, and I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it, so if I knew what the hell I was doing in the 3D realm, ;-) I'd volunteer for at least some of the models. Alas, I only know how to work with 2D stuff. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Hi Evan, I mentioned BRL-CAD some days ago: quote Maybe Blender, OpenSCAD or BRL-CAD should become our 3D-friends ? /quote If there is a packaged version in Fedora I will give it a try because the last time I visited the web site it looked like it's more mature than FreeCAD (freecad, or however it's spelled). FreeCAD seems to use python for scripting, yet another language for me to learn ;-) At the moment I'm strugling with OpenSCAD to get a 1/4 of a toroid ;-( This requires a sequence of boolean operations: rotate_extrude a circle and then subtract some translated cubes as to get the bend of a through hole resistor. Chip capacitors and resistors are easy: just some cubes ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Evan Foss Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 8:09 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request Hi, I may have missed it but has anyone suggested the brlcad format. It might be better than freecad in that it has export/import from a lot of other formats already written. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Hi all, IMHO, openSCAD could be a (FOSS) candidate as well for generating a 3D view a the board. It's input file is a script resembling C. For the user manual see: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual Simple components (CAPC et al) could be defined as a module containing a cube for a body, and two other translated cubes for the leads. Complicated parts can be assembled by means of conditinal and iterator functions containing 3D primitives. PCBoards can be put together by a toplevel script invoking all parts (modules) and an extruded outline (may even be a DXF file). I try to work out a proof-of-concept board to investigate the feasibility. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:09 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request Anyway I started to think could it be possible to write tool that populates the PCB? First we know the footprint. There are the legs. Then we need case. Selecting from few different cases it could be possible to select desired case. Size could be little bit smaller than outline in footprint. And then the last thing is add text and resistor ribbons. This information is required before the picture is exported. And when we export image, these pictures are pasted on picture. In theory, the XYZR output (bom exporter) is enough to let you paste other pictures onto the pcb picture. However, there's the whole need a huge pile of pictures problem still. Then you'd annotate the footprints to include a photo name and perhaps some hook to fix it (like resistor stripes or number), some offset/rotation code, etc. Remember, features get added by the people with the time and desire to add them... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
Hi DJ, IMHO and AFAICT STEP is a closed standard, that is, one will have to (probably ?) buy a copy of the standard and then violate the copyright notice prohibiting to disclose (reproduce ?) its contents into some sort of a library (libSTEP ?), which then could be published under LGPL and used by GPL-compatible FOSS. Please correct me if I'm having a wrong impression here, as I would be glad to hear that ;-) And then the mentioning of a hairy format ... Me shivers ... Hmm, would that give us robust code ? If we want to export towards (proprietary) mechanical CAD I would rather put my money on IDF. Maybe Blender, OpenSCAD or BRL-CAD should become our 3D-friends ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 4:27 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request One suggestion I got a Devcon was to support STEP format for 3-d graphics. While it's a hairy format, it was said to be the standard for sharing 3-d models of components. Of course, it would be nicer if someone *else* supported it for us :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request
OK, I'm corrected and happy for us ;-) Anyone volunteering for the difficult part ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Phillip Jones Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:15 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Ben mode feature request IMHO and AFAICT STEP is a closed standard, that is, one will have to (probably ?) buy a copy of the standard and then violate the copyright notice prohibiting to disclose (reproduce ?) its contents into some sort of a library (libSTEP ?), which then could be published under LGPL and used by GPL-compatible FOSS. Please correct me if I'm having a wrong impression here, as I would be glad to hear that ;-) ISO 10303 - Automation systems and integration - Product data representation and exchange more commonly known as STEP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_10303 quick search on sourceforge reveals: http://exp-engine.sourceforge.net/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog
Hi Felix, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Felix Ruoff Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:13 AM To: k...@familieknaak.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog kai-martin knaak wrote: I'd say, the default should be *.pcb + *.fp . These are by far the most likely files you'd want to load. Thanks to all for your replys! I found a way to store the last-used folder at a GKeyFile. But it is not well integrated yet, so it will need some days until I will make a patch public. I would like to introduce a menue-change for loading and saving and like to know what you are thinking about it: New menue-structure: File New Layout Import Schematics... Open... (loads *.pcb, *.fp and eventually *.sch-files) Load Netlist... Load Vendor Resource... - Save... ... Buffer Load from File... (loads *.pcb and *.fp) Save to File (replaces Save buffer-elements to file. What should here be the default-filetype? Or the only filetype? *.fp?) - ... The idea is, that pcb decides dependend on the filetype which kind of load-function should be used (Martin's suggestion above brought me to this idea). I am very unsure about Import Schematics. I did never used it, so I don't know if it is more related to 'New' or to 'Open' or even nothing of them.l I hope, my programming-skills are enough to implement something like this and am very interesting in your opinions. Felix If this were for me to decide, I would do something like this: File NewCtrl-N // maybe New Layout Open Ctr+O // to open an existing layout from file Save...Ctrl+S // to save the current layout Save as... Shft+Ctrl_S // to save the current layout to a diff path/filename -- Revert To saved To backup -- Load Load element data to paste-buffer... Load layout data to paste-buffer... Load Schematics... Load Netlist... Load Vendor Reaource... -- Save connection data of ... A single element All elements Unused pins Save buffer to element file // AKA footprint file (*.fp) -- Print Ctrl+P // or maybe Print layout Calibrate printer // or maybe Page setup Export layout... // here follows the Brady bunch of all available exporters ;) -- Close layout Ctrl-W // if and when multiple layouts are supported ;-) Close all layouts // if and when multiple layouts are supported ;-) Exit Alt+X // But it isn't, so it's just my EUR 0.02 on the subject. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog
Hi Felix, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Felix Ruoff Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:24 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog Hi Bert, Bert Timmerman wrote: Commit message says it all: Apply filters to load filechooser dialogs. [1988982] [2686963] Applies filters to the filechooser dialogs when loading layouts, layouts (to buffer), elements (to buffer) and netlists. Default behaviour is to not filter in the filechooser dialog. Choosing a predefined filefilter in the filechooser dialog filters on registered mime types, lowercase and uppercase file extensions. Predefined filters are selected upon the action chosen in the File pulldown menu. IMHO, being able to see *all* available files in a directory listed at startup of the dialog, and not have been restricted in my view by the GUI, still is a good thing. In making GUI design decisions it is difficult to please all possible users. Maybe make this configurable ? you are right, this behaviour might not fit for all users. Make it configureable seems a very good choice to me. So I deleted this patch from sourceforge-tracker and will work at a new patch which will hopefully be more comfortable. My idea is to store the filter from last using of the dialog and use this filter again. The filter at the first launch of pcb after the installation should be 'show all files' as you suggested. I am relatively new to the pcb-sourcecode. Can anybody give me a hint where to store informations like this? I would prefer to use functions from other (gtk-)libs like g_key_file_*, but I did not found any using of them in the pcb-sourcecode. Hmm, g_key_file_* and friends arrived at GTK version 2.6. AFAICT, configure.ac checks for the GTK version to be at least 2.8.0, so all gtk functions prior to that version (and not deprecated) should be reasonable safe to use. Let's see what comments the pcb-devs have on your patch ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog
Hi Felix, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Felix Ruoff Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:35 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: gEDA-user: PCB: Change default file-filter in open-dialog Hello, I wondered, why the file-filter at the open-dialogs of pcb is not selected by default. For me, it is more comfortable if there are just the files shown, which can be loaded by this programm/function. I have also looked at other software and most of them do this this way (the only one I found which shows all files by default is OpenOffice.org). I appended a patch which changes this behaviour. Any comments are welcome! Felix @The main developers: I do not send this patch to the sourceforge-patch-tracker now because I think, this Patch is not really essential. If it is easier for you if I send all my patches to the tracker, please send me a message and I will add this one (and all later patches)! Commit message says it all: Author: Bert Timmerman bert.timmer...@xs4all.nl 2009-03-31 22:33:02 Committer: Peter TB Brett pe...@peter-b.co.uk 2009-08-05 08:06:21 Parent: 3b2a77744f50a33bb1507aa8062c51e0934a5b89 (Replace 'README.cvs' with 'README.git'. [2810417]) Child: e2c5002166158dab7cf43d4745b594e510056071 (Correction of the pcb homepage url in the about dialog window.) Branches: master, remotes/origin/master, remotes/origin/pcb-20091103, remotes/origin/sdb-playpen Follows: pcb-20081128-base Precedes: pcb-20091103-RELEASE Apply filters to load filechooser dialogs. [1988982] [2686963] Applies filters to the filechooser dialogs when loading layouts, layouts (to buffer), elements (to buffer) and netlists. Default behaviour is to not filter in the filechooser dialog. Choosing a predefined filefilter in the filechooser dialog filters on registered mime types, lowercase and uppercase file extensions. Predefined filters are selected upon the action chosen in the File pulldown menu. IMHO, being able to see *all* available files in a directory listed at startup of the dialog, and not have been restricted in my view by the GUI, still is a good thing. In making GUI design decisions it is difficult to please all possible users. Maybe make this configurable ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes
Hi Rick, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Rick Collins Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 4:05 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes I've actually given this some thought. On one hand it seems like a footprint file language might seem like a good idea. But there is a lot to consider. What is the real advantage over the scripts you currently use to generate a fixed format footprint file? What is the advantage over a footprint generator? One of the clear disadvantages of a footprint language is the difficulty in verifying that you have correctly drawn the footprint. You would need a tool for that which would look a lot like a footprint generator. It can also be problematic dealing with bugs when the language gets used in the corner cases or unusual ways. FreePCB has a pretty versatile footprint generator that deals with all the standard sorts of features in the standard footprints. It is capable of understanding the files it generates so that it can be used to edit these footprints as well. If you have an odd part that has some regular features and also odd features, it can accommodate that too. I have never needed to hand edit a footprint file when using this tool. Best of all, it is GUI and interactive so I can see exactly what I am doing. A footprint language may be quick for some things, but I think a GUI footprint editor with a standard, non-programmable file format is a much better general tool. Rick For a pcb FootPrint Wizard have a look at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-fpw For the sources (git). A manual with screenshots can be found at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/pcb-fpw/user-manual.html I'm still debugging, so consider this a work in progress. Changing the pcb footprint file format will not speed up a new release. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: next PCB release - 1.99za vs 4.0
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:40 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: next PCB release - 1.99za vs 4.0 In Protel there is a keep-out layer. A object, square, polygon etc, on that layer prevents traces from being run through that area, either manually or by the auto-router (which sucks so bad I never use it). Hmmm... Can we have multiple keep-outs for a single copper layer, e.g. digital keepout, analog keepout, HV keepout? That would be very useful! (Or maybe more appropriate to say keep-in.) Yes, the 'keep-out' should be per layer. In Protel it blocks all layers which is frequently what you do not want. Drawing a contain outline in copper, then remembering to delete it latter, can serve as pseudo keep-out/in. IMHO, we should be thinking about keepout as in: 1) traces keepout for copper layers (routing traces is out of bounds here), 2) placing parts op [top, bottom, buried components] in the keepout area for reasons of clashing with mounting holes, other parts courtyard (real estate), underlying stripline antennas, diff pair traces and other EMC reasons. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: next PCB release - 1.99za vs 4.0
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:52 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: next PCB release - 1.99za vs 4.0 On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 1:40 AM, Jonathon Schrader jlsch...@jlschrad.net wrote: That is, a footprint (such as the battery mount mentioned previously) with a requirement not to place any parts between the tabs, but traces are fine? It would be good to be able to say place no component thicker than X in this area. Consider case clearances. Why didn't you tell me you drive a #6 bolt through the case to hold the board in place? It is not on any of the prints! :-( Maybe you could add an attribute to an element defining the height. Something like: Attribute (element_height=, 5 mm) And write a plugin for parsing all elements and exporting this (and other) attribute as key-value pairs to whatever file (format) you can think of for further processing (mechanical DRC). Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes
Hi Rick, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Rick Collins Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 12:38 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes At 11:49 AM 9/4/2010, you wrote: On Sat, Sep 04, 2010 at 01:16:01AM -0400, Rick Collins wrote: Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! The spec is large because it addresses a wide range of design aspects, which is one of the great reasons for using it, one file for the entire design, schematic, layout, mechanical, etc, even board lay up. So the compatibility issue is moot because any one app only needs to deal with the portion that applies to it. Just don't muck with the other parts. The heavy issue is a red herring (are you planning on hosting this on a cell phone maybe?) No PCB file format is going to be easy for humans to read. Bandwidth? Back to the MCU in the cell phone I guess. Ugly, now there is a great technical argument. But I suppose it is better to re-invent the wheel. There is no reason to try to foster any sort of compatibility in file formats between all the different CAD tools. There are always conversion programs to be written, no? This is not an emotional argument, but a technical one, and the choice is not between XML and reinventing the wheel. (Sadly, my Lisp suggestion has been shot down - by better arguments than popularity, I might add. ;) There are other formats to consider, and yes, inventing one might be an option. How do you know PCB won't ever run on cell phones, or over a slow network link, or on an embedded device or network PC or overtaxed virtual machine? How do you know we won't one day need to work with 1000-layer boards when suddenly it /does/ matter how heavy the file format is? So are you suggesting that we should, at this time, plan for running PCB on a cell phone? Do you want to design PCB to work on overtaxed virtual machines, if so, I expect there will be a lot more important things to optimize than the file format which only impacts the performance when reading or saving the file. If we need to work with 1000 layer boards, I expect we would have computers which would be not at all burdened by XML file formats. I'm trying to be realistic about the requirements. I think that the 2x or 3x factor of file size of using something like XML would be lost in the noise. The advantages of working with an industry standard file format could be very large. Of course as you or someone pointed out, IPC-2511B is not a well established format. But to my knowledge it is the only one that spans most if not all aspects of circuit board manufacturing. It seems like a great idea to work with something this useful and I am pretty sure that concerns with using it can be ironed out. Unless you want feature-parity with other CAD programs, it is impossible to have file-format-parity. So no matter what, conversion programs will have to be written. Creating similar file formats won't help anything, other than to limit our own format, and potentially cause problems if PCB and another CAD program are able to open (and corrupt) each other's files. I don't agree that a common file format has to be restrictive. If the file format is flexible enough, the program won't be limited. Everything doesn't have to be included from the start. I don't know if IPC-2511B is flexible enough for PCB and future ideas for PCB, but using XML I expect it can be expanded easily. I don't think anyone here has really looked hard at it. It may well be extensible. I don't know. But I would like to at least consider it and not toss it away without giving it a chance. Rick IMHO, the problem with XML lies not in the bloat, even a factor 10 larger would be acceptable, it's the $TAGS that have to be identical across all applications to have a truly exchangable XML file. I think that for an exchangable format for schematic capture, pcb layout __and__ 3D mechanical CAD stuff the problem is waaay to big to grasp in a forthnight and DIY. And there happens to be a standard of sorts which does just that, named IDF, some of the large commercial CAD vendors play this game already. In this playfield design files with 1MB size 10MB is not that uncommon these days. Welcome in Utopia mate ;-) Have a look at: http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v40_overview.pdf http://www.protel.com/files/training/Module%2020%20-%203D%20Mechanical%20CAD .pdf http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v30_spec.pdf Happy reading ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes
Hi, There happens to be a newer version (1998) of the IDF specification: http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v40_spec.pdf Kind regards, Bert Timmerman -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bert Timmerman Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 11:13 AM To: 'gEDA user mailing list' Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes Hi Rick, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Rick Collins Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 12:38 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes At 11:49 AM 9/4/2010, you wrote: On Sat, Sep 04, 2010 at 01:16:01AM -0400, Rick Collins wrote: Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel! The spec is large because it addresses a wide range of design aspects, which is one of the great reasons for using it, one file for the entire design, schematic, layout, mechanical, etc, even board lay up. So the compatibility issue is moot because any one app only needs to deal with the portion that applies to it. Just don't muck with the other parts. The heavy issue is a red herring (are you planning on hosting this on a cell phone maybe?) No PCB file format is going to be easy for humans to read. Bandwidth? Back to the MCU in the cell phone I guess. Ugly, now there is a great technical argument. But I suppose it is better to re-invent the wheel. There is no reason to try to foster any sort of compatibility in file formats between all the different CAD tools. There are always conversion programs to be written, no? This is not an emotional argument, but a technical one, and the choice is not between XML and reinventing the wheel. (Sadly, my Lisp suggestion has been shot down - by better arguments than popularity, I might add. ;) There are other formats to consider, and yes, inventing one might be an option. How do you know PCB won't ever run on cell phones, or over a slow network link, or on an embedded device or network PC or overtaxed virtual machine? How do you know we won't one day need to work with 1000-layer boards when suddenly it /does/ matter how heavy the file format is? So are you suggesting that we should, at this time, plan for running PCB on a cell phone? Do you want to design PCB to work on overtaxed virtual machines, if so, I expect there will be a lot more important things to optimize than the file format which only impacts the performance when reading or saving the file. If we need to work with 1000 layer boards, I expect we would have computers which would be not at all burdened by XML file formats. I'm trying to be realistic about the requirements. I think that the 2x or 3x factor of file size of using something like XML would be lost in the noise. The advantages of working with an industry standard file format could be very large. Of course as you or someone pointed out, IPC-2511B is not a well established format. But to my knowledge it is the only one that spans most if not all aspects of circuit board manufacturing. It seems like a great idea to work with something this useful and I am pretty sure that concerns with using it can be ironed out. Unless you want feature-parity with other CAD programs, it is impossible to have file-format-parity. So no matter what, conversion programs will have to be written. Creating similar file formats won't help anything, other than to limit our own format, and potentially cause problems if PCB and another CAD program are able to open (and corrupt) each other's files. I don't agree that a common file format has to be restrictive. If the file format is flexible enough, the program won't be limited. Everything doesn't have to be included from the start. I don't know if IPC-2511B is flexible enough for PCB and future ideas for PCB, but using XML I expect it can be expanded easily. I don't think anyone here has really looked hard at it. It may well be extensible. I don't know. But I would like to at least consider it and not toss it away without giving it a chance. Rick IMHO, the problem with XML lies not in the bloat, even a factor 10 larger would be acceptable, it's the $TAGS that have to be identical across all applications to have a truly exchangable XML file. I think that for an exchangable format for schematic capture, pcb layout __and__ 3D mechanical CAD stuff the problem is waaay to big to grasp in a forthnight and DIY. And there happens to be a standard of sorts which does just that, named IDF, some of the large commercial CAD vendors play
Re: gEDA-user: PCB format wishlist
Hi,
-Original Message-
From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org
[mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Swint
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 4:06 PM
To: gEDA user mailing list
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB format wishlist
On 09/04/2010 10:19 PM, Andrew Poelstra wrote:
I have one more suggestion: the facility to create recursive PCBs.
What this will look like in the file format, I dunno. But we should
keep it in mind.
Recursive PCBs could work the same way as the footprint
re-use: a node could contain a reference to a parent node;
the parent node could be a single element or itself a
reference to a collection of elements.
+1
I can think of a group of {traces, vias, elements, silk text or lines} to
be linked in from an external file or to be embedded.
The analogy of embedded/unembedded symbols in gschem comes to mind.
I never have applied symbols recursively though (symbols within symbols
within symbols), other than in the form of hierarchical multisheet
schematics (symbols pointing to schematics containing symbols, pointing to
schematics containing symbols, etc.
Kind regards,
Bert Timmerman.
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Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes
Hi Bob, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 1:24 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Functional blocks and PCB format changes IMHO, the problem with XML lies not in the bloat, even a factor 10 larger would be acceptable, it's the $TAGS that have to be identical across all applications to have a truly exchangeable XML file. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/ XML can be easy or hard, big or small, depending on the task at hand. Specifically related to this discussion is this: Create a maintainable extensible XML format Reduce change when you design XML formats agile enough to incorporate new requirements http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-extensxml.html The problems described there are not specific to XML formats. XML gives us the ability to interact with other tools. JSON gives smaller file format, with Lots of Irritating Silly Parentheses. YAML gives flexibility, with small file size. SVG lets us layout boards in our browser (I've actually wanted to do that due to restrictive IT policies on what software can be installed and used). The 'What' of a requirement document is more important than the 'How'. No reason at all that there can not be multiple file formats, *if* things are specified well. We all have many wishes, with a fixed amount of time to allocate to our lives, unless we make time to code things we'll be spending time on wishes and still be where we started in the end. The Devil's weapon of choice today, is distraction from our goals in life. I think we are (hopefully) on the same page. Let's keep what we already have: pcb's internal engine, maybe some day to be metrified and an extended and improved file format to be fit for the future. To me XML would be an intermediate file, used to exchange data, the same purpose an IDF file would have. Reinventing the XML wheel would take more effort for us and other parties, someone would have to think-up a XSD schema. The IDF format is well defined, version 4.0 so the big issues should be solved, some mechanical 3D CAD vendors (mainstream) have picked up the format as hae some big EDA players. The worst thing that could happen is someone writing a plug-in or an exporter for either XML or IDF ;-) The same goes for a IPC-356 compliant test point data exporter, a DXF import plug-in, a DXF exporter and the list goes on and on. Too much ideas and sparse free time. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA beginners questions about gschem-programming
Hi all, For on-line gEDA developer documentation generated with Doxygen have a look at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/gaf/dox.html Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. BTW: you all know where to post your patches with Doxygenn comments ;-) -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:56 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: gEDA beginners questions about gschem-programming Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: There is an effort to use doxygen for documentation. See http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:devel-tips Some parts of the source is already thoroughly doxyfied, others still lack this kind of documentation. I don't know about the state of the gschem source. Thanks for the link. Regrettably I don't have the time to go into details but looking at the attributes assuming the figure is right, imo, the datastructure is wrong. Otherwise I'd like to get an explanation, why it is clever to link attributes of unrelated objects. I expect huge amounts of clumsy code and all sorts of bugs and havoc to arise from this. Regards, Armin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb keyboard shortcuts (and usability in general)
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 12:20 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: pcb keyboard shortcuts (and usability in general) Bert Timmerman wrote: Maybe a single button would do to open a popup dialog to alter layer settings. Maybe something like this screenshot from AutoCAD: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/downloads/Layer_properties_manager.jpg There is no much benefit in presenting all the properties of all layers at the same time, squeezed in the available screen space. IMHO, it would be better to open a properties dialog for just one layer at a time. For example triggered by right-click on the corresponding layer button. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 It's just to give food for thought and insight of how other CAD apps have solved this issue, the pcb-devs are very able to steer their own course. However, for designs with a large number of layers, having a non-modal layers management dialog could be a possibility te keep more screen space available for the drawing area. Not everybody has one (or more) wide flat screen(s) with a resolution 1680 x 1050 and a bazzillion colours. Parts of the contents for this layers management dialog already existst in the Files/Preference... pull down menu, in a dialog with two tabs (and another one for information). Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb keyboard shortcuts (and usability in general)
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 5:16 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: pcb keyboard shortcuts (and usability in general) Andrew Poelstra wrote: This problem prompted me to suggest redoing the layer selector entirely to clean up the code, which in turn spawned the workspace/functional block discussion. Since you want to do away with the radio buttons left of the layers for activating I suppose you want use left-click for activate (like Kai-Martin every 10th attempt I inadvertently do this anyway). A means to switch visibility must be found: once a right-click popup is assigned to the layer buttons, this would just be one of the properties, until then, how about using right-click or middle-click? Thinking of a way to display the extent of vias (for burried vias) a bar left of the layers showing a bronze color strip connecting the start and end layer makes sense to me. It's similiar to a scrollbar but in reality could consist of simple boxes with changing background color. The active layer could be shown with the corresponding button depressed. Cycling through visibility states can change the button background color: normal ... visible, full saturation darkish grey + bright text . greyed out very dark + bright text .. invisible Getting caught by a fixed start and end layer for vias while routing on a different layer not in that range, it's probably practical to have a setting 'via starts at current layer' - using it may be a tradeoff between manufacturing cost and ease of routing. ( what happens if I want via_1 from layer 2-4 and via_2 from layer 3-5? ok, via_1 probably starts as blind while glueing layer 2,3,4 , 1st metalization, then glueing layer 5 makes via_1 burried, 2nd metalization connects layer 5 with layer 3,4 on via_2 - with multiple drilling, sounds expensive ;-) Maybe a single button would do to open a popup dialog to alter layer settings. Maybe something like this screenshot from AutoCAD: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ljh4timm/downloads/Layer_properties_manager.jpg Just the 5 left columns and the right most would do the trick. Regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Specification of Rotations for Auto Assembly
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:04 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Specification of Rotations for Auto Assembly Rick Collins wrote: This seems like a pretty sharp group. One of the problems I consistently have is generating an XYRS file for auto assembly of my boards. The X and Y require a specified origin and orientation of the board, which is done in the fab drawing. The side is pretty clear as well. But I always have trouble with the rotations. There are two sides and even if you pick a convention for the angle of origin and the direction of rotation, you still have to decide if the bottom side is viewed from the top or the bottom. When I have asked assembly houses about what they assume as convention, I never get an answer. They just tell me that they need the X and Y data along with the side. They basically figure out or at least verify the rotation data for themselves. Is that what you find? It just seems very odd that there is no accepted and widely used convention for rotations. I found info from IPC that says pin 1 in upper left corner is 0 degrees for ICs. But I've seen nothing that addresses how to spec the bottom side components. A FreePCB companion program. FpcPlace assumes all rotations are CCW and viewed from the top. But the footprint generator makes the footprint with pin 1 in the lower left which screws everything up, or so the FpcPlace developer says. It looks to me like the FpcPlace program is not correct. One of the things I dislike about pcb is the coordinate system: it's lefthanded, or z+ is going into the screen instead of pointing out. The right hand rule says: if you spread your first 3 fingers (starting with thumb) orthogonal to each other, thumb = X, point = Y, middle = Z ( or if you hook your fingers to indicate a rotation that will move X into Y, spreaded thumb poins to Z+). This is the basis for all math definition on vector operations in 2D and 3D, it defines the mathematically positive sense of rotation (CCW from above). All mechanical CAD systems and robotics controls adhere to this. So to define a rotation consistent with production, the first thing one must do is set up a proper 3D coordinate system. As long as the internal coordinate system of pcb is consistent within the code base, and the proper coordinate system is used for the exporter for each purpose, then why change and have the risk of implementing (new) errors. When it works, don't fix it. As a SCARA robot can only access one side of the board at a time, it's now a matter of convention, whether your designer procomputed rotation fixes the base coordinate system to the board (that gets flipped, so Z+ points up or down) or to the robot base. If I were to come up with a convention, I'd fix it to the board, since the actual placement of the board in the robot system (position and rotation) is unknow to the designer anyways. Next convention would be X is longer side, Y is short for rectangles. To define the complete position, one has to carry out 2 rotations (I know they can be combined to one oblique) for the backside: flip the board, then somehow rotate the chip. As the rotations can be combined, they can't be independent: you could flip the board around it's X-axis (makes most sense to designer) or it's Y-axis or around robot-X (what they fabs probably do) or around any other axis in the XY-plane, yielding completely different angles for the chip rotation. That's what the fabs actually tell you: if you believe the XY-plane to be in the center of the laminate, indicate which side is Z+. HTH, Armin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven Michalske Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:19 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report Its public domain, thats very free, GPL has had is day as a free license, but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others that want to contirbute, i no longer will even consider working on GPL v3 code. +1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:43 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: Why not using IDES/STEP file format. Because STEP is a hell of a standard and non-free, too. It encompasses much more than 3D mechanical data and aims to cover every aspect of every product. The standard itself is closed source. You have to pay real money and sign a NDA document to receive a copy. I once tried figure, how a cube as a 3D equivalent to hello-world would look like in STEP format. There was lots and lots information available _on_ STEP but none on the actual syntax. Going the freecad way would avoid this kind of hassle. According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. true. ---)kaimrtin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Intermediate Data Format (IDF) may be a viable solution, some main stream CAD applications use it or have import/export functionality for IDF. The format is described here: http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v20_spec.pdf Or have a google with IDF CAD. Happy reading. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:07 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at http://wikicomponents.com The worlds first and only truly open source for 2D and 3D PCB component package, part and electrical device data. I did point out to them that http://gedasymbols.org , was around for a while, which not really my point here. I corresponded with Dino Ditta, the person behind the site, when it first opened. There were some ambiguities about the terms of use, as far as being Open Source friendly, and he said that was his intention, and that he would clean up the ambiguities. Don't know if he did that. He was open to having KiCAD and PCB symbols posted there. Maybe we could get behind his 3D effort rather than DXF? Last I looked there were a lot of part numbers, with nothing to back them up, which I did complain about to Dino, don't know if he fixed that. Frustrating to spend time searching the list for it to lead to nothing. -- http://blog.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ Excuse me for having a rather pessimistic view about this site. At first sight the story/website sells, I (myself) might even get involved in this idea, at least someone has seen the problem of the EDA user community (this is not the EDA vendor community problem, that one is solved with a 20k++ $ seat of some softwarez). Then I start to look for some oddities and errors, none to be found, it's a near perfect set up. Contributed parts data and the contributors get ranked, OK to me, we should do that on gEDA-symbols site too ;-), let's give some kudos, and warm cuddly hugs to ourselves. Even the Terms of Use are full of legal stuff, now that was to be expected, no surprises here. OK, the German and Chinese translation buttons do not give full translations of everything, just the menu buttons of the webpages get translated into German or Chinese (I think). The mere fact things start with a M$ installer doesn't give an overwhelming Free Open feeling. M$ users are known wanting to pay for everything, either money or valuable time spent on whining for patches/updates (and not scratching their own itch). And how are we addressing the license issue ? I would prefer to contribute with something like GPL, LGPL (it's a library, isn't it) or any other FOSS license. To me the license issue is one of the tell tales of this wikicomponents idea becoming a vendor lock in/out in the future. In the our vision page it is stated (among other things) that Nobody Owns It In the page descibing the Rating System it is stated: quote The most frequently asked question is: Who owns the data? The answer to both of these is the same: The WikiComponents Community. /quote The name is Wikicomponents Inc. that makes it a commercial EDA company with a money trail, where does the money come from and where does it go to ? ... enough said. IMHO, this flipped wikicomponents coin can go just one of two ways: Head: It will work, a bazzillion parts get contributed by thousands of enthousiastic contributors who will produce an error free repo of parts data. And then some day someone will realize that the data contributed is a goldmine and run away with the stuff (gold). Lock in will happen as one of the big EDA companies will buy the data. Lock out will happen as in shutting down the site being the next step. Anyone had made a backup/clone/fork of the data from this site somewhere ? ... Anyone (please) ? ... Nobody (Ok, now that's the person owning the stuff) Tail: Not enough contributors/contributions to gain any/enough leverage against the bazzillion parts out there. I have been there, done that, that is where we are at the moment ;-) I will see how well this goes, things can only get better, for now I scratch my own itch with gEDA and any Automation I can think of for myself. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Hi John, I was working on a dxf exporter for pcb. Recently did a couple of steps converting this into a pcb plugin for exporting dxf stuff, and maybe importing a pcb outline from mechanical CAD. Problem with dxf is that it doesn't support 3D shapes in a usable way, this remains bound to AutoCAD for further processing. Furthermore I started a pcb footprint wizard in GTK (an open source look-a-like version of Tom's stuff). And had some thoughts about a BGA fanout utility (gfanout) and some automation of adding pinout labels in pcb footprints or gschem symbols or what usage I can further think of (gpinout). Oh, and I bundled some pcb plug-ins. All to be found at http://www:github.com/bert Most of these projects are half baked, you (both the lists) are all invited to bake the other half. This because my spare time is becoming sparse time Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: teardrops.c cvs access
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 3:02 AM To: k...@familieknaak.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: teardrops.c cvs access There are many plugins not included in the distribution. Nobody has had the time to figure out how best to include them; either in the main source tree as compiled-in files, or in a separate tree as installed plugins. Plus there's the all the gathering, licensing, testing, and documenting to do. Have a look at: http://github.com/bert/pcb-plugins And please read README.plug-ins for instructions. License texts included ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. BTW: patches are welcome ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: dxf again
Hi Mark,
-Original Message-
From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org
[mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Mark Rages
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 12:21 AM
To: gEDA user mailing list
Subject: Re: gEDA-user: dxf again
On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Dave N6NZ n...@arrl.net wrote:
But my application is a little different. I want to get a
DXF file that I can run through a CAM package, in particular
the paste layer, which isn't a 'real' layer, unfortunately --
it is synthesized in the output HID as I understand it. And
while preserving dimensions is useful in some situations, I
also want to be able to do rule-based adjustments of
dimensions. And I also want to be able to deal with a pcb
design from any tool.
Anyway, my last thoughts were that pcb is the wrong place
to do what I want to do. The correct place is a gerber2dxf
conversion tool. The new gerbv is librarized, so one could
write a front-end to libgerbv that read gerbers via libgerbv
and then did the massage and output function. You might
checkout the gerbv library API, and consider if maybe that is
a better place to accomplish your job.
In my Googling, I ran across an application called pcbtodxf
that purports to do gerber-dxf. No idea about licensing,
platform etc.
So it turns out there is a bitrotted dxf exporter HID at
http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid/
I'm working my way through it, trying to get it to compile.
It's kind of slow going, like a 5400-line C file that has
never been compiled before. By that, I mean there are lots
of little mistakes like this:
void somefunction( char *s ) {
if (s == ) {
...etc...
Of course, the compiler complains to the heavens about this,
and it's an easy fix, but it makes me less than hopeful that
the code's gonna work.
Regards,
Mark
markra...@gmail
--
Mark Rages, Engineer
Midwest Telecine LLC
markra...@midwesttelecine.com
Indeed, I did a half baked and buggy attempt at:
http://github.com/bert/pcb-dxf-hid.git
Just my EUR 0.02 (as if this first attempt to code something in C is worth
half that much ;-)
IMHO, it might be better to do the pcb2dxf stuff as a plug-in.
At one moment in time it did actually compile (with a lot warnings) but the
resulting files were wrong, that is, they didn't load into AutoCAD.
I never found enough free time for this projects to finish it into a proper
working tool.
Kind regards,
Bert Timmerman.
___
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geda-user@moria.seul.org
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Re: gEDA-user: moving slotting to pcb?
Hi DJ and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 7:19 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: moving slotting to pcb? A random thought occurred to me today - why does gschem do slotting at all? Why does it care about footprints and packages? Would it make more sense, from a design flow perspective, to just send the symbolic information to pcb and let pcb assign footprints and pinouts? That way, gschem does all the symbolic stuff, and pcb does all the physical stuff. It would, of course, mean major changes to pcb to handle elements without footprints yet and stuff, as well as mapping multiple refdes's to single elements. Probably make power pin management more complex too, unless we came up with a new way to manage hidden pins. Anyway, food for thought. I just thought about it, I think ;-) Maybe I didn't think hard enough, but here goes what came up. Gschem should do what I think it's meant for: being a UI for creating schematics, a schematic being a concept of a possible reality, I do also create pneumatics/hydraulics/piping/PLC ladder diagrams with gschem. From that concept one can go in several directions: that is where gnetlist with various backends comes into play. If you want to simulate with gnucap, a layout with pcb, create a (preliminary) BOM, ... , just choose whatever your backend is tuned for. Ok, let's choose the pcb flow. Now if I had all footprint already attached in my schematic I would use gsch2pcb, which basically invokes gnetlist. Gsch2pcb would complain about missing footprint attributes. If I made a pristine schematic, that contains no footprint attributes gsch2pcb would lead me nowhere. IMHO, pcb should only do layout editing on printed circuit (flexable) boards, preferably with all sorts of plugins and routers to optimze this job, the A in gEDA. However, there seems to be a step overlooked/underdeveloped in this specific process: gattrib, maybe in the future to be combined with gparts ! If we want to optimize the selection of footprints, gatrib should become the frontend of some sort of database like backend containing all sorts of parts the user (company/worldwide ?) previously used, call it gparts if you want. This database application layer could be a user specified csv file, an URL to a vendor website (Mouser, Digi-key et al) or a user/company database. As it is nowadays, the selection of packages/parts is done by the user looking up/querying all available sources by him/herself in a cumbersome way (let's call it experience). Another problem here is that gattrib writes back the gathered information to the schematic and does not look in the direction of the following step in this trail: pcb itself. In the current gschem -- pcb flow the pristine schematic becomes tainted by gattrib for other workflows. Gattrib and gparts should offer the choice of slotting of devices into a single package when possible, some packages contain four NAND gates (devices), some packages only one device. The same goes for opamps. Sometimes a designer may choose not to apply slotting as to avoid interference and keep signals as far apart as possible. Gattrib and gparts should solve the transistor problem ;-) IMO, it would be better if gattrib is the owner of the package/parts mapping file, and pcb should only read this file for loading footprints. In pcb two information streams should be combined into a pcb layout: 1) connectivity (from gnetlist) and 2) partslist (from gattrib/gparts). The same information shoud be able to be passed into applications like breadboard/stripboard/Fritzing if one wants to layout for prototyping. And when the pcb layout is completed all that remains is maybe do a EMC/thermal analysis iteration process, and finally generate gerber files, create a XY pick-and-place file and a shoppinglist (BOM), create fab documentation and do back-annotation of connectivity and parts mapping to a tainted final schematic file. BTW: In the current situation the gate-swapping problem has to be solved at the schematic level, which is two levels upstream. This should be done by gattrib/gparts. BTW2: The transistor problem has to be solved at the same upstream level (2). Just call pins e, b, c in the schematic and let gattrib/gparts sort out the pin mapping. Users should not be bothered with this kind of thing for more than one time each instance, just Automate it. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: moving slotting to pcb?
Hi DJ, and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:49 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: moving slotting to pcb? If we want to optimize the selection of footprints, gatrib should become the frontend of some sort of database like backend containing all sorts of parts the user (company/worldwide ?) previously used, call it gparts if you want. http://www.delorie.com/pcb/component-dbs.html Yeah, I know, I've been there, I've read that. Credits to whoever earnes them ;-) The other point worth mentioning is that gattrib pushes the added information backwards (upstream) and not towards the tool next in the chain. Kind regards, Bert Timmwerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: [PATCH 1/7] PCB localization
Hi Peter and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 8:29 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: [PATCH 1/7] PCB localization On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 07:16 -0400, Ales Hvezda wrote: [snip] Ales - is it possible to configure mailman not to munch [PATCH...] emails? It has stripped some leading whitespace from the context, and appended a footer which is confusing patch. I looked and I don't see a way of doing that sort of (non)filtering with mailman. I do recommend that people submit patches to the trackers since 1) no munching and 2) ability to track them. By email also has its advantages: 1. Email means the patches get seen and reviewed 2. Git sends the email for you - so no extra work for the sender 3. I can save the patches without having to poke sourceforge 4. I can save the patches without having to poke sourceforge (If I agree to push some patches - send them privately to me). Best wishes, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) 5. *all* the impatient geda-users can apply the patches to their local repository themselves, and have a test drive, without having to poke sourceforge. 6. *all* impatient geda-devs can apply the patches to their local repository themselves, and have a test drive, without having to poke sourceforge ;-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. @Peter: I had a lovely holiday in Kent, will surely return next year ;-). ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Copper-free area in footprint
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of David C. Kerber Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:48 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Copper-free area in footprint Yeah, I was thinking the same thing; I've got a fair amount invested in my bikes... -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Griessen Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:03 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Copper-free area in footprint David C. Kerber wrote: If you've got a carbon frame, you could drop it into the seat tube, where it would never be seen, and therefore never removed by a thief... This really does sound like a product since bikes can cost these days. John Yes, it's viable a product. Insuring against theft for a EUR 700 bike may cost me EUR 98 per 3 years without Biketheft Protection Chip (BPC), and EUR 85 with BPC for the same period. Maybe you can guestimate the price any consumer in my area would pay for your device ;-) based on above figures. Bike theft is one of the most commited (and not resolved) crimes in the Netherlands. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: OT: Bike Alarms
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Griessen Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 5:41 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: OT: Bike Alarms David SMITH wrote: John Griessen wrote: David C. Kerber wrote: If you've got a carbon frame, you could drop it into the seat tube, where it would never be seen, and therefore never removed by a thief... This really does sound like a product since bikes can cost these days. Not to put too much of a spanner in the works, but... Where does the power come from? a 1 inch square solar panel. Solar panels made of flexible film exist, but are not robust. They'll get better. David SMITH wrote: Of course, we also have the problem of getting a decent GPS fix, since if it's stolen, it will need to get enough signal to report its position, and if it's being stored inside a building, that's going to be very difficult, Instead of relying on GPS, another tactic discussed so far was to monitor closeness to various safe zones, where it can communicate with a base station. Then the task becomes decide when to alarm and contact the cell phone towers. Trying to contact and getting no signal could be quick and a low power drain. Without communication there would be no need to go into mode 3. get a GPS fix, (or not), and send status to a phone number. If GPS was unavailable, it might be possible to track by phone calls to the bike, if the cell phone company cooperated, i.e. after police were involved. JG -- Ecosensory Austin TX tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 I like the toothbrush power supply idea of Gene. Another tactic may be to elongate the reporting interval when the bike under thread remains in a assigned safe zone (for bike theft there are no safe zones in the Netherlands). It could work with timing intervals of 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours etc. When a bike is in the safe zone for 15 minutes for two adjacent periods of time, switch to 30 minutes intervals etc. Just my EUR 0.02 on the subject. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Database on symbols, footprints and other (was Re: gattrib)
Hi Armin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:27 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Database on symbols, footprints and other (was Re: gattrib) Hi, attached is a 1st version of the table definitions. The file should be self-documenting. Armin Did you have a stab at: git clone git://git.gpleda.org/gparts.git Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB configuration skin
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Kai-Martin Knaak Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:27 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB configuration skin On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:55:49 +0200, Kovacs Levente wrote: Please note that GTK is dropping the tear off menu system. The lesstif HID still has this functionality. I use it with a dual head system, and it is a cool feature. Do they? We launched a little protest against this move a while ago. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get FWIW, I have a very dim vieuw about this issue and would be very surprised if even a very very big protest would help (very very big as in more than 20,000 protests). It's the choice of volunteers to keep supporting this feature or dropping it, the volunteers are in control of the repository (mother of all packaged sources and install binaries). And the volunteers know there is *no chance* you can keep up with a fork of GTK on your own. It's boils down to Free and Open Source Software versus Controlled Repositories and Distribution Channels. More useful features were dropped in the history of GTK, and will be. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Polygon and track spacing
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:29 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Polygon and track spacing I added this to the wiki http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:pcb_tips#how_do_i_change_polygon_cleara nce I added the FAQ as a pop-up in PCB too :-) Perhaps we should get into the habit of putting these things in PCB, not just the wiki? Start popping up help pages instead of one-liners? Bizzare thought - our online documentation should be done as a series of PCB files that illustrate the operations. We already know how to render those - just pop up the relevent ones in a new window :-) I have still have Clippy ringing in my ears from some other mail thread the other day ;-) If you need artwork to go along with the dialog we can have a contest for the most pcb-like assistant. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Patch to PCB build system needs testing/feedback
Hi Jared, On Sun, 2010-04-18 at 16:05 -0700, Jared Casper wrote: Hi all, I just discovered that the latest automake (1.11) has a nifty feature to create silent build rules to produce a Linux kernel style build that just displays CC file.c etc. instead of the whole command line (must have missed the memo last year). The attached patch enables this mode in PCB and edits most of the custom build rules to use the new silent type of output. Right now it turns silent build on by default. The old style can be obtained using make V=1 or with the --disable-silent-rules configure option. To make it not on by default, remove the [yes] in the call to AM_SILENT_RULES in configure.ac. I think it makes the build much cleaner and readable overall and, more importantly, makes the errors and warnings much easier to see. I decided to send it here instead of the patch tracker for two reasons: 1) Feedback to see if people like this style of build output. 2) Testing. I don't have a box that has autoconf 2.60 and automake 1.11 (I either have servers that have been up for ever and still on autoconf 2.60 or desktops that are very up to date and have automake = 1.11.) I'd be surprised if it broke things with automake 1.11, but that needs testing. Also, I don't have a Windows box or a box with a non-GNU tool chain to test it out on. So if any body with these environments can test this out for me I'd appreciate it. Thanks! Jared Here is my EUR 0.02 on this one I have an old Fedora Core 5 box running (which is very slw ;) and it took some time to get some results. I have automake-1.9.6 and recently upgraded to autoconf-2.63 I applied your patch and ran the usual suspects ./autogen.sh and ./configure Running make with either v=0 v=1 V=0 or V=1 gives the same results, just no silent mode over here. The other (family) box has Microsoft Windows XP (SP3) with a recent cygwin (new release and build system). This one has automake-1.11.1 and autoconf-2.65 and AFAICT here things work as you advocate ;-) I had to configure with --disable-doc and --disable-update-desktop-database to get things working here. I hope this confirms what you said in the above message. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols
Hi, It would be nice to have a revert or reload file function in the gattrib pulldown menu and/or have keystroke. With said feature one would be able to swap more easily between gschem and gattrib when a lot of attributes need to be set/changed (of course updating the file in the process). Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:57 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols Not because of the bugs I ran into but since choosing a footprint is a difficult process in it self I was longing for a footprint browser. The easiest place to start a clean implementation may be gattrib, that I found conventient to duplicate footprint choices, once one has been assigned gschem. However, the best overview of what is what and therefore choose the right footprint is probably gschem. With gschem open, gattrib should work however, if one remembers, that gschem is in read only then. The problem could be split out of gschem, if it were better supported, to assign a physical part to the symbol. This will probably help other tools too, since e.g. a Spice model is tied to a part, not to a bunch of lines with pins (symbol). I first thought device were the thing to use, but in the standard library it's occupied by names like CAPACITOR_POLARIZED which says noting about rated voltage or ESR. Any ideas? Just my 2 cents Matthew Wilkins wrote: It seems like there is room to add a footprint selector utility that would interface between gschem/gattrib and PCB without impacting non-PCB users in any way. In fact if PCB had an HID where it just starts up as a footprint browser and nothing else, you could use PCB itself to assign footprints to symbols from within gschem or gattrib. An option in the gschem config file could allow users to define a command line to start PCB in that mode, and PCB would output the selected footprint attribute value before exiting. Users of other workflows might be able to use a similar type of browser utility to work with other types of libraries -- gnucap models? verilog models? I don't know if that would be useful or not... Anyway, the point is that this type of feature can be added and could be be completely invisible to other workflows, unless they want to use it. --- On Fri, 4/16/10, DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: From: DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Matching footprints with symbols To: gEDA user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org Received: Friday, April 16, 2010, 6:16 PM Perhaps the shortcoming is in your expectations. I think that (1) our tools are mature enough that users should expect *some* sort of seamless integration and co-operation between them, and (2) we're mature enough to not have to insult our users when our software acts in an unexpected way. The two projects are able to work together *because* they were intentionally designed with clean interfaces, Irrelevent. Having clean interfaces doesn't preclude using those interfaces in a seamless manner, giving the impression of integration. One thing that sows confusion here is that footprint has different meanings Hence the Terminology chaper in the Getting Started guide, which defines what PCB means by footprint: ``A footprint is the pattern on a circuit board to which your parts are attached. This includes all copper, silk, solder mask, and paste information. In other EDA programs, this may be referred to as a land pattern. Footprint sometimes is used to refer to a footprint file. Footprint refers to the pattern; element refers to the instance. For example, your layout might have four elements that use one footprint.'' If you're talking about PCB, please stick with PCB's meanings of the terms. And some design flows don't have footprints (VLSI, simulation, symbolic analysis, ...), although perhaps the hydraulic design process recently discussed here has something analogous ;-) And some programs aren't EDA programs, but that doesn't help with his problem. Ugh! Yuck! IDE = Inflexible, Dumbed-down Environment. Some prefer that, but shouldn't there remain toolkits for those of us who need flexibility and high productivity automation? Please stop trying to push your personal flow onto others :-) Despite you pushing your personal way of doing things (very vocally, I might add), a clear majority (not some) of the geda users DO want a simple schematic
Re: gEDA-user: Where and what month of the forums can I findand other locations on PCB Release 20091103Added experimental topological autorouter
Hi Kai-Martin, DJ and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:25 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Where and what month of the forums can I findand other locations on PCB Release 20091103Added experimental topological autorouter DJ Delorie wrote: pcb --verbose ... Close, but not quite there. a) There is a major difference in usability between output in stdout and part of the GUI. b) The output gets swamped by Action: PointCursor() stanzas, while in select mode. c) If I draw tracks with the line tool, I get Action: Mode(Notify) Action: Mode(Release) for every segment. These actions wouldn't create the tracks on the command line. In general, the output does not provide the commands to build an action script that actually builds part of the layout without user interaction. This would raise the power of actions to a whole new level. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Maybe a command line option like: pcb --record-macro filename could do what Kai-Martin suggests in the above. In this mode all sorts of not specific stuff could be ignored and specific commands could be honed into the exact syntax needed. Just my EUR 0.02 on the subject :) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics
Hi Tom, I like the style of the symbols, great work. I will have a look at the company hydraulics symbol lib today and see what else comes up. The company I work uses a lot of hydraulic drive systems. BTW: I have forked your repo to have a local version to work on and work with myself. Watch your forkqueue :-) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Tom Hawkins Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:13 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics Thanks for all the input. Here's the little hydraulic symbol library I started: http://tomahawkins.org/gschem-hydraulics.png http://github.com/tomahawkins/hydraulics A bit later I'll looking into path fills, and after that, netlisting this into something that can be simulated. Thanks for your help. -Tom ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics
Hi Bob, Do not discuss patents here please ! This is highly contageous and attracts law suits. Without the mentioning of patents the general idea would have come across as well. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paddock Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:10 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics If you look at some hydraulic schematics, you'll see a rich duality between electric and hydraulic circuits. For example, the pressure drop across an orifice is analogous to the voltage drop across a resistor. Hydraulic power is pressure * flow (i.e. V * I). http://www.unusualresearch.com/Pump/bellocq.htm US Patent: 1,941,593 01/02/1934 PUMPING [This patent is interesting in that it shows the plumbing equivalent to resonance circuits, high pass, low pass, and band pass filters.] http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOCad jacent=truelocale=en_EPFT=Ddate=19340102CC=USNR=1941593AKC=A ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics
Hi Tom, I'm a mechanical engineer (BSc) with an electrical background (Technical College). I have thought of and made a small start for non-electrical symbols for Piping Instrumentation Diagrams, with hydraulics and pneumatical symbols to follow (http://github.com/bert/gschem-symbols/tree/master/piping/). Another use for gschem, netlist and friends could be the simulation of distribution networks of natural gas or tap water, maybe even simulation of drainage systems: ditches, canals and/or large water ways. It's just a matter entering a schematic representation for connectivity (nets), adding the right attributes and invoking a scheme backend with netlist to do your preprocessing and solver stuff (this is the real challenge, not the schematics). Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Tom Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 7:41 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: hydraulic symbols and schematics On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Stuart Brorson s...@cloud9.net wrote: Hi -- Obviously gschem is intended for electric circuits, but has anyone used it for hydraulic schematics? The hydraulics industry has defined a fairly rich schematic language [1][2] for describing hydraulic and pneumatic systems. I didn't find a gschem hydraulic symbol library, so I'm attempting to build one. My first stumbling block is the use of filled and non-filled triangles, which differentiate hydraulic pumps from pneumatic compressors. Is it possible to draw filled triangles or polygons with gschem? I don't think vanilla gschem currently supports filled regions. But this is a frequently requested feature, and the folks in Cambridge may have coded up a solution based upon the whizzy graphic work they have done. Well it appears to fill circles and boxes just fine. Maybe it just needs the ability to handle arbitrary polygons. Do you foresee any other difficulties? ... aside from simulating a hydraulic circuit with spice or generating a layout. Actually, my first thought was: What kinds of simulations (if any) does one do in hydraulics? Are there any standard simulators? If so, generating a netlist to feed to such a simulator might be an interesting hobby project. We use Easy5 and Simulink. But Easy5 doesn't run on Linux and both tools are very clunky and neither have a standard format. This year I plan to build some tools in this space. It would be cool to netlist a hydraulic design out of gschem and simulate it with other stuff like embedded software and vehicle dynamics. If you look at some hydraulic schematics, you'll see a rich duality between electric and hydraulic circuits. For example, the pressure drop across an orifice is analogous to the voltage drop across a resistor. Hydraulic power is pressure * flow (i.e. V * I). (BTW at Eaton, we have a history of bending EDA tools for our purposes. We used GTKWave to view and analyze vehicle data in realtime.) Awesome! How did you get the real time info into GTKWave? IIRC, it only reads .vsd (and other simulation) files. We extract vehicle data via. a CAN bus. We then convert the streaming CSV data into VCD and pipe this into GTKWave. The command line reads: $ readCAN | tovcd - | shmidcat | gtkwave -v -I my.sav We put a laptop in the passenger seat when we take our test vehicles out for a drive. With the analog features of GTKWave, you can see all the vehicle data varying in realtime. It's really cool. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line)
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven Michalske Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:07 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Launchpad (was: rant: pcb print from command line) On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:30 AM, Ales Hvezda wrote: 1) Leave gEDA (that includes gaf, pcb, and gerbv) split between two private servers (seul.org and gpleda.org both privately funded). It looks like trac has gotten pretty good with git, could we could set up trac on gpleda.org? http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/GitPlugin Steve FWIW, I'm using Lighthouse for issue tracking. Have a look at or use the free trial: http://lighthouseapp.com/ For a real project with lots of tickets things get slow here too, see below if you have some lunch time left or just no appetite ;-) https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/tickets https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994-ruby-on-rails/milestones/50064 -235 https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994/sending-patches https://rails.lighthouseapp.com/projects/8994-ruby-on-rails/tickets/bins/636 8 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: I am such a troll for posting to slashdot
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of John Luciani Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:34 PM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I am such a troll for posting to slashdot Without a Windows port you will have a beginners interface (and documentation) but no beginners ;) I have talked to a lot of people at the Arduino Users Group and at dorkbot and the majority are Windows, a fair number on MAC and a few on Linux. Eagle has done excellent marketing. Seeding the university's with Eagle has enabled it to spread rapidly. Grassroots local support is available in a lot of areas. FWIW, Just my EUR 0.02 on the subject. It all makes sense. Basically the same strategy Autodesk used in the 90's with AutoCAD, leak some cracked versions into the tech university world and the harvest is payed licensed versions when those students land in the Corporate world, and Autodesk has become a market leading company this way (with it's resources). It's not too late to outdo Eagle or any other closed source app, only a *huge* effort needs to be made. As it is now we can't even setup a decent mirror system for stuff without donations, and even donations sponsored source improvements go slow (LF). The scratch-your-own-itch attitude won't work in this playfield, we need resources, sponsors etc. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Making circles in PCB
Hi DJ, On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 23:17 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote: It can't be that simple or else someone would have done it alreay. Maybe it is, there's so many little things people want that we few developers just don't have time to work on them all. Give it a try, maybe you'll succeed. You certainly won't succeed if you *don't* try. Any clues where to start adding code ? I did look into some files yesterday like action.c , draw.c and create.c , but couldn't find a nice starting point for adding a command circle. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: I am such a troll for posting to slashdot
Hi, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of timecop Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:32 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: I am such a troll for posting to slashdot standard parts library. And if you're making footprints and symbols, text files generated by scripts are FAR superior to any GUI. I'd never get 100-1000 pins right if I had to use a GUI. lol, every altium user disagrees. if you ever seen their IPC pattern / component wizard, you wouldn't be saying this. I'm working on it :) Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Message and Library windows
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:30 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Message and Library windows On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 22:32 -0800, Jared Casper wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: I can't help but feel that some log messages are important enough to bother the user about - and others are not.. we'll have to see what people actually using it think, I'm not doing any PCB design work at the moment myself. Maybe add a Warn function along side Message (or something along those lines), and add a flag to HID.log that says whether or not to bring the log window to the foreground? Or go all out and add an enum for severity. It'd be easy to add the plumbing, the hard part would be to go through and decide what Message()s should be Warn()s, etc. I'm sure different severities could be displayed differently in the log quite easily as well... Sounds good. gschem has different message warning levels, but in practice you rarely see them. (Especially as it looses that info if the message window isn't on-screen when the message is logged!) The functionality I saw someplace (was it in your repo?) to attach/embed the log window to the main window will help out with this problem as well I think. Not mine.. I recall the one you're talking about, but I can't remember the location of it. Maybe it was the geany app used for coding stuff by some (including me). http://www.geany.org/Documentation/Screenshots Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Translations for gEDA 1.6.1....
On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 12:03 +, Peter Clifton wrote: On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 12:56 +0100, Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi Peter, How to translate accelerator stuff ? en: _Save nl: Opslaan or nl: _Opslaan and break the future accelerator key binding ? I'd go with whatever fits best with the rest of the applications on the system. The first option is quick to do - of course, and one I could have bulk-updated for people, but I wanted to give translators the choice. You could have: nl: Op_slaan If you want to keep s the accelerator key. No diff with low caps ? If you change the accelerators keys, you need to do it in the context of an open gschem menu - and make sure the ones you decide to assign don't clash with each other in a given menu. Where there is no easy match, I better leave out the _ to avoid conflicts. BTW: this e-mail, and a similar reply to Florian's, might show up on the list in 5 days or so. I'm experience strange, and random, lags when posting to geda-user or geda-dev. Looks like a Heisenbug in the mailman to me :) Ping Ales about that. It has happened before (although typically not just to individual people, rather a general slowness in delivery). Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Translations for gEDA 1.6.1....
Hi Peter, On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 11:32 +, Peter Clifton wrote: On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 09:35 +0100, Florian Teply wrote: On Sunday 07 February 2010 00:42:29 Peter Clifton wrote: Hi guys, In preparation for the gEDA 1.6.1, I've been trying to sort out our translations. I've imported all translations from Launchpad, and have been reviewing places where untranslated strings were visible in gschem. Unfortunately, we've got a lot of broken menu translations - due to incorrect strings in rcstrings.c. (Mostly my fault probably!) Mostly this was due to adding _Accelerators to the menu text, but not updating rcstrings.c Just to get Things straight: that _Accelerator stuff is the Keyboard entry mode for menus, right? So just like Alt+H, U for Hierarchy - Up? Actually, no - I was referring to the underlined letters on a menu which let you access the menu-item by letter when it is open. For example, most application have _File _Edit etc... so you can do Alt+F+... Actually, gschem doesn't accelerate any of its top-level menus. I can't recall why we never did this - but it might also be worth doing for 1.6.1. (Assuming we call the lack of accelerators a bug). We are kind-of duplicating functionality with our existing hot-keys, but it's not uncommon for applications to have both menu accelerators, and keyboard short-cuts (which are usually modifier key based). Peter How to translate accelerator stuff ? en: _Save nl: Opslaan or nl: _Opslaan and break the future accelerator key binding ? Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. BTW: this e-mail, and a similar reply to Florian's, might show up on the list in 5 days or so. I'm experience strange, and random, lags when posting to geda-user or geda-dev. Looks like a Heisenbug in the mailman to me :) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Translations for gEDA 1.6.1....
Hi Peter, Florian, On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 09:35 +0100, Florian Teply wrote: On Sunday 07 February 2010 00:42:29 Peter Clifton wrote: Hi guys, In preparation for the gEDA 1.6.1, I've been trying to sort out our translations. I've imported all translations from Launchpad, and have been reviewing places where untranslated strings were visible in gschem. Unfortunately, we've got a lot of broken menu translations - due to incorrect strings in rcstrings.c. (Mostly my fault probably!) Mostly this was due to adding _Accelerators to the menu text, but not updating rcstrings.c Just to get Things straight: that _Accelerator stuff is the Keyboard entry mode for menus, right? So just like Alt+H, U for Hierarchy - Up? Regards, Florian How to translate accelerator stuff ? en: _Save nl: Opslaan or nl: _Opslaan and break the key binding ? Please advice ! Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
