Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On 09/09/2010 07:15, Greg Stein wrote: > Just to clarify: I'm assuming you're saying "+1 to the proposal", > rather than to my comment. Correct? +1 indeed, to the proposal +1 actually, to the mailing list comment, too. The Incubator PMC might consider that establishing sufficient interest which requires a user list is an indicator of a project approaching the exit criteria, or at least, making substantial progress. p > And to clarify for myself: I have no opinion on the proposal itself. I > timed out after "Java" and the next few buzzwords. Thankfully, this > proposal didn't say "framework" or I may have timed out after the > first :-P ... my comments were focused on the community aspects around > mailing list management, and successfully growing a lively and > sustainable critical mass. > > Cheers, > -g > > On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 02:06, Pid wrote: >> +1 (non-binding) >> >> Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. >> >> >> p >> >> On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: >>> +1 (Notbinding) >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: > ... > *Mailing Lists* > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. Cheers, -g >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
Just to clarify: I'm assuming you're saying "+1 to the proposal", rather than to my comment. Correct? And to clarify for myself: I have no opinion on the proposal itself. I timed out after "Java" and the next few buzzwords. Thankfully, this proposal didn't say "framework" or I may have timed out after the first :-P ... my comments were focused on the community aspects around mailing list management, and successfully growing a lively and sustainable critical mass. Cheers, -g On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 02:06, Pid wrote: > +1 (non-binding) > > Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. > > > p > > On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: >> +1 (Notbinding) >> >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: ... >>> *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user >>> >>> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >>> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >>> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >>> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >>> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -g >>> >> >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
On 08/09/2010 13:44, ant elder wrote: > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: >> Hi, >> >> After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF >> community has voted (see >> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors-dev/201008.mbox/browser) >> and would like to officially change our name to be the "Apache Connectors >> Framework". We would like the Incubator PMC to vote to make this official. >> >> [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework >> [] 0 Don't care >> [] -1 Don't change it >> >> Since this is a procedural vote >> (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), it is a majority rule vote >> with binding votes coming from IPMC members. The vote is open for 72 hours. >> >> Here's my +1 (binding). >> >> Thanks, >> Grant > > -0 > > I agree with the comments from David and others such as [1] and the > suggestion at [2] to call it something more abstract like Apache > Connecto. > > Thats IMHO anyway, I'm not sure that the IPMC should be the ones with > binding votes on this but it would be good if the poddling could take > into consideration our views. -1 (non-binding) In short, the selection of an abstract name is a considerably better solution, as per the previous discussion on the topic. p 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 (non-binding) Small point: if a Mentor must be a Member, I can't be one, because I'm not. p On 08/09/2010 16:00, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote: > +1 (Notbinding) > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>> ... >> >>> *Mailing Lists* >>> >>> kitty-dev >>> kitty-commits >>> kitty-user >>> >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >> >> Cheers, >> -g >> > > > 0x62590808.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
> -Original Message- > From: Grant Ingersoll [mailto:gsing...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2010 10:18 PM > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Subject: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache > Connectors Framework > > Hi, > > After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF > community has voted (see http://mail- > archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors- > dev/201008.mbox/browser) and would like to officially change our name > to be the "Apache Connectors Framework". We would like the Incubator > PMC to vote to make this official. I have mentioned before, the wording of your request to change suggests that your are removing the word 'Lucene' and replacing it with the word 'Apache' . This is misleading and wrong. 'Apache' is a given, in both scenarios. You are changing from: 'Lucene Connectors Framework' to 'Connectors Framework' That could also be written as: 'Apache Lucene Connectors Framework' to 'Apache Connectors Framework' One or the other, don't mix the two, its misleading. That said, heres my vote: > > [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector > Framework > [] 0 Don't care > [] -1 Don't change it +1 I don't care for the name but my view is I'll leave it to the project to decide. Gav... > > Since this is a procedural vote > (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), it is a majority rule > vote with binding votes coming from IPMC members. The vote is open for > 72 hours. > > Here's my +1 (binding). > > Thanks, > Grant > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
On 9/8/2010 8:44 AM, ant elder wrote: > -0 > > I agree with the comments from David and others such as [1] and the > suggestion at [2] to call it something more abstract like Apache > Connecto. > > Thats IMHO anyway, I'm not sure that the IPMC should be the ones with > binding votes on this but it would be good if the poddling could take > into consideration our views. Agree. I'd rather see either a more abstract name or one that is more focused / less likely to be confused with JCA, Tomcat, or any other type of "connector" that might come down the road later. I guess I'm -1 (binding), though, since you did ask for a vote. :) --Glen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote: > -0.5 (non-binding), I find the proposed name rather confusing -1. I should probably have listened in (and participated) on the previous discussion, but I agree with Kalle. "Connector" is such a wide term, that I doubt that such community will deal with all kind of possible connectors. Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
[x] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework. Mike On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: > Hi, > > [x] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework > > BR, > > Jukka Zitting > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
Hi, [x] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
-0.5 (non-binding), I find the proposed name rather confusing Kalle On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: > Hi, > > After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF > community has voted (see > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors-dev/201008.mbox/browser) > and would like to officially change our name to be the "Apache Connectors > Framework". We would like the Incubator PMC to vote to make this official. > > [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework > [] 0 Don't care > [] -1 Don't change it > > Since this is a procedural vote > (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), it is a majority rule vote > with binding votes coming from IPMC members. The vote is open for 72 hours. > > Here's my +1 (binding). > > Thanks, > Grant > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Quick project submission question
On 09/08/2010 11:06 AM, Scott Wilson wrote: On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:40, Carl Trieloff wrote: > On 09/08/2010 10:29 AM, Scott Wilson wrote: >> On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:13, Carl Trieloff wrote: >> >> >>> What is the view of having a project in Apache that pulls substantial components >>> that are licensed under ASL as dependencies into the code base. I.e. not coping the >>> code, but using components that have been built and maintained elsewhere under ASL >>> but used as dependencies for running. >>> >>> I assume this is not an issue, based in the info posted on use of licenses -- however I'm >>> interested in understand if others have had positive or negative experiences with such >>> a case. >>> >> Hi Carl, >> >> Wookie has been using Ivy[1] to pull in external dependencies as part of the build process. It took a bit of initial effort to get right, but now works really nicely, and makes it much easier to track external libraries and check their licenses are compatible. You can also distinguish between dependencies that are needed for development, for building, and for distribution and downstream reuse. There is an Eclipse plugin for Ivy that works pretty well too. >> >> The only vaguely negative thing I found was the initial challenge of getting the hang of how Ivy works, but we had good help from other community members and from our mentors on that. >> >> [1]http://ant.apache.org/ivy/ >> >> - Scott >> >> > > Scott, > > Do you see any negative sides from the community perspective with the dependencies that or from projects > outside of Apache? > > Carl. I think it depends on the nature of the project you depend on. For the most part these are pretty mature, commonly used libraries. However in one case we did have the issue that we had a problem that was caused by a bug in a dependency (HtmlCleaner) where it wasn't very clear from the website whether the project was still active (patches not applied, no recent commits etc). In the end I just asked nicely on their tracker if it could be fixed, waited patiently, and eventually it was:-) I can imagine there might be problems if you got into a blame game with upstream projects, or where there is a combination of a big culture difference plus an unstable codebase. I think the answer is to evaluate dependencies from a community and sustainability viewpoint, not just a functional one. Thanks, the libs in question are mature and still actively maintained, this was helpful. Carl. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
On Sep 8, 2010, at 1:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >> ... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > +1 for proposal: +1 for combined lists at this stage :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Quick project submission question
On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:40, Carl Trieloff wrote: > On 09/08/2010 10:29 AM, Scott Wilson wrote: >> On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:13, Carl Trieloff wrote: >> >> >>> What is the view of having a project in Apache that pulls substantial >>> components >>> that are licensed under ASL as dependencies into the code base. I.e. not >>> coping the >>> code, but using components that have been built and maintained elsewhere >>> under ASL >>> but used as dependencies for running. >>> >>> I assume this is not an issue, based in the info posted on use of licenses >>> -- however I'm >>> interested in understand if others have had positive or negative >>> experiences with such >>> a case. >>> >> Hi Carl, >> >> Wookie has been using Ivy[1] to pull in external dependencies as part of the >> build process. It took a bit of initial effort to get right, but now works >> really nicely, and makes it much easier to track external libraries and >> check their licenses are compatible. You can also distinguish between >> dependencies that are needed for development, for building, and for >> distribution and downstream reuse. There is an Eclipse plugin for Ivy that >> works pretty well too. >> >> The only vaguely negative thing I found was the initial challenge of getting >> the hang of how Ivy works, but we had good help from other community members >> and from our mentors on that. >> >> [1] http://ant.apache.org/ivy/ >> >> - Scott >> >> > > Scott, > > Do you see any negative sides from the community perspective with the > dependencies that or from projects > outside of Apache? > > Carl. I think it depends on the nature of the project you depend on. For the most part these are pretty mature, commonly used libraries. However in one case we did have the issue that we had a problem that was caused by a bug in a dependency (HtmlCleaner) where it wasn't very clear from the website whether the project was still active (patches not applied, no recent commits etc). In the end I just asked nicely on their tracker if it could be fixed, waited patiently, and eventually it was :-) I can imagine there might be problems if you got into a blame game with upstream projects, or where there is a combination of a big culture difference plus an unstable codebase. I think the answer is to evaluate dependencies from a community and sustainability viewpoint, not just a functional one. > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator
+1 (Notbinding) On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > Cheers, > -g > -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide) http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving" - Albert Einstein "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less than your best." - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship "Stay hungry, stay foolish." - Steve Jobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Quick project submission question
On 09/08/2010 10:29 AM, Scott Wilson wrote: On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:13, Carl Trieloff wrote: What is the view of having a project in Apache that pulls substantial components that are licensed under ASL as dependencies into the code base. I.e. not coping the code, but using components that have been built and maintained elsewhere under ASL but used as dependencies for running. I assume this is not an issue, based in the info posted on use of licenses -- however I'm interested in understand if others have had positive or negative experiences with such a case. Hi Carl, Wookie has been using Ivy[1] to pull in external dependencies as part of the build process. It took a bit of initial effort to get right, but now works really nicely, and makes it much easier to track external libraries and check their licenses are compatible. You can also distinguish between dependencies that are needed for development, for building, and for distribution and downstream reuse. There is an Eclipse plugin for Ivy that works pretty well too. The only vaguely negative thing I found was the initial challenge of getting the hang of how Ivy works, but we had good help from other community members and from our mentors on that. [1] http://ant.apache.org/ivy/ - Scott Scott, Do you see any negative sides from the community perspective with the dependencies that or from projects outside of Apache? Carl. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Quick project submission question
On 8 Sep 2010, at 15:13, Carl Trieloff wrote: > > What is the view of having a project in Apache that pulls substantial > components > that are licensed under ASL as dependencies into the code base. I.e. not > coping the > code, but using components that have been built and maintained elsewhere > under ASL > but used as dependencies for running. > > I assume this is not an issue, based in the info posted on use of licenses -- > however I'm > interested in understand if others have had positive or negative experiences > with such > a case. Hi Carl, Wookie has been using Ivy[1] to pull in external dependencies as part of the build process. It took a bit of initial effort to get right, but now works really nicely, and makes it much easier to track external libraries and check their licenses are compatible. You can also distinguish between dependencies that are needed for development, for building, and for distribution and downstream reuse. There is an Eclipse plugin for Ivy that works pretty well too. The only vaguely negative thing I found was the initial challenge of getting the hang of how Ivy works, but we had good help from other community members and from our mentors on that. [1] http://ant.apache.org/ivy/ - Scott > > Carl. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Quick project submission question
What is the view of having a project in Apache that pulls substantial components that are licensed under ASL as dependencies into the code base. I.e. not coping the code, but using components that have been built and maintained elsewhere under ASL but used as dependencies for running. I assume this is not an issue, based in the info posted on use of licenses -- however I'm interested in understand if others have had positive or negative experiences with such a case. Carl. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:18 AM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: > Hi, > > After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF > community has voted (see > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors-dev/201008.mbox/browser) > and would like to officially change our name to be the "Apache Connectors > Framework". We would like the Incubator PMC to vote to make this official. > > [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework > [] 0 Don't care > [] -1 Don't change it +1 ...I don't personally like the name but not sure what the basis would possibly be that the IPMC wouldn't just Ack this --tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: > Hi, > > After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF > community has voted (see > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors-dev/201008.mbox/browser) > and would like to officially change our name to be the "Apache Connectors > Framework". We would like the Incubator PMC to vote to make this official. > > [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework > [] 0 Don't care > [] -1 Don't change it > > Since this is a procedural vote > (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), it is a majority rule vote > with binding votes coming from IPMC members. The vote is open for 72 hours. > > Here's my +1 (binding). > > Thanks, > Grant -0 I agree with the comments from David and others such as [1] and the suggestion at [2] to call it something more abstract like Apache Connecto. Thats IMHO anyway, I'm not sure that the IPMC should be the ones with binding votes on this but it would be good if the poddling could take into consideration our views. ...ant [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/ryf4eebpzpsvq3hr [2] http://apache.markmail.org/message/zyiodmx4hbqfjek3 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
[VOTE] Change name of Lucene Connectors Framework to Apache Connectors Framework
Hi, After much debate both here and on the connectors mailing list, the LCF community has voted (see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-connectors-dev/201008.mbox/browser) and would like to officially change our name to be the "Apache Connectors Framework". We would like the Incubator PMC to vote to make this official. [] +1 Change the Lucene Connector Framework to the Apache Connector Framework [] 0 Don't care [] -1 Don't change it Since this is a procedural vote (http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html), it is a majority rule vote with binding votes coming from IPMC members. The vote is open for 72 hours. Here's my +1 (binding). Thanks, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:39, dan haywood wrote: > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) In ASF projects I would expect that developers are subscribed to both the dev and user lists anyway. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:39 AM, dan haywood wrote: > > For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more > vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in > the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then > we can vote to split them out. > Why are we even having this discussion? When did mailing lists become such a heavyweight operation that we have to discuss at length whether they should even exist? Just create the user/dev/commits/issues lists and be done with it. If nobody uses the user list, so be it. I think it's just more confusing to start moving traffic from one list to another. Keep things consistent. > And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that > it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with > actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) > The developers should be "listening" to the user list so that they can answer questions. They can't just hide in the dev list and not listen to the community. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:19, Robert Matthews wrote: > One point against this is that we have had a long-standing user list, ... > > ... People are used to > the user list already. We do, but it's going to change anyway when we make the apache mailing list available. > If we are going to combine the two then I > suggest we have a -user list now and let the developers grow out of > that. > I disagree; I think we should follow the precedents on other projects (Sling, OWB, MyFaces). For the moment at least the dev community is more active (or at least more vocal), so their mailing list should be the main focal point. As I said in the other email, when we have more user traffic than dev traffic, then we can vote to split them out. And another benefit of putting user traffic on the dev list is that it'll give the devs exposure to any probs that regular users are having with actually using the framework (ie so we can mature its documentation etc) Dan > > Rob > > On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:16 +0100, Dan Haywood wrote: > > Isis mentors: > > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list > > for -dev and -user? > > Dan > > > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks >wrote: > > >>> ... > > >>> *Mailing Lists* > > >>> > > >>> kitty-dev > > >>> kitty-commits > > >>> kitty-user > > >>> > > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the > users > > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm > the > > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > > > user- list IMO. > > > > > > Martijn > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On 8 September 2010 12:16, James Carman wrote: > Isn't Isis a different bird though? It has been around for a long time and > is likely to actually have existing users > It has some, but not enough to be sustainable. Hence entry into the incubator to build both its user and developer communities. I think that for the foreseeable any new users we attract are likely to be early adopters, with a better than average chance of getting interested in contributing. One of the internal milestones for us ought to be when we get to the point that we vote it would be beneficial to split off a -user from -dev... that would be an indicator that we have enough "just users", and are moving into the early majority stage. There's another thing here too.. activity on the mailing list (even if its just the devs exchanging ideas) will give would-be users a sense that interesting things are happening. In contrast, a very quiet users list (which I think it would be) would be a turn-off. So my vote is just a dev mailnig list for now. > > On Sep 8, 2010 7:04 AM, "Benson Margulies" wrote: > > Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need > it. > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > >> Isis mentors: > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > should > >> we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for > -dev > >> and -user? > >> Dan > >> > >> > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > >>> > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks >wrote: > > > ... > > *Mailing Lists* > > > > kitty-dev > > kitty-commits > > kitty-user > > > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the > users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm > the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > >>> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > >>> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > >>> > >>> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > >>> user- list IMO. > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
One point against this is that we have had a long-standing user list, and it is the developer list that is new and growing. People are use to the user list already. If we are going to combine the two then I suggest we have a -user list now and let the developers grow out of that. Rob On Wed, 2010-09-08 at 08:16 +0100, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list > for -dev and -user? > Dan > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: > >>> ... > >>> *Mailing Lists* > >>> > >>> kitty-dev > >>> kitty-commits > >>> kitty-user > >>> > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the > > user- list IMO. > > > > Martijn > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Isn't Isis a different bird though? It has been around for a long time and is likely to actually have existing users On Sep 8, 2010 7:04 AM, "Benson Margulies" wrote: > Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need it. > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > >> Isis mentors: >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should >> we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev >> and -user? >> Dan >> >> >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks>>> >wrote: > ... > *Mailing Lists* > > kitty-dev > kitty-commits > kitty-user > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple >>> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >>> >>> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the >>> user- list IMO. >>> >>> Martijn >>> >> >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Well, we could neglect to tell anyone about the user list until we need it. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should > we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev > and -user? > Dan > > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks>> >wrote: >>> ... *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the >>> community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users >>> and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the >>> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching >>> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >>> >> This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple >> of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >> >> In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the >> user- list IMO. >> >> Martijn >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
My bad for possibly confusing things, then. Benson got it right when he raised that ticket in the first place. Dan On 8 September 2010 10:33, Gav... wrote: > The private, dev and commits list is all that has been asked for. > > See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-2971 > > so your fine. > > gav... > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: mwessend...@gmail.com [mailto:mwessend...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of > > Matthias Wessendorf > > Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2010 7:29 PM > > To: general@incubator.apache.org > > Cc: d...@haywood-associates.co.uk > > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > > > +1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers > > community > > > > -M > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg > > wrote: > > > +1 > > > > > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > > > > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do > > fine for now. > > > > > > LieGrue, > > > strub > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > > > >> From: Dan Haywood > > >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > >> To: general@incubator.apache.org > > >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > > >> Isis mentors: > > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being > > >> bootstrapped, > > >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > > >> mailing list > > >> for -dev and -user? > > >> Dan > > >> > > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > > >> wrote: > > >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew > > Sackswrote: > > >> >>> ... > > >> >>> *Mailing Lists* > > >> >>> > > >> >>> kitty-dev > > >> >>> kitty-commits > > >> >>> kitty-user > > >> >>> > > >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > > >> then splitting the > > >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > > >> want to keep the users > > >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > > >> starts to overwhelm the > > >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > > >> risk never reaching > > >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > > >> this with a couple > > >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > >> > > > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > > >> done without the > > >> > user- list IMO. > > >> > > > >> > Martijn > > >> > > >> > > >> > > - > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Matthias Wessendorf > > > > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ > > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf > > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
RE: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
The private, dev and commits list is all that has been asked for. See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-2971 so your fine. gav... > -Original Message- > From: mwessend...@gmail.com [mailto:mwessend...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of > Matthias Wessendorf > Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2010 7:29 PM > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Cc: d...@haywood-associates.co.uk > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > > +1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers > community > > -M > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg > wrote: > > +1 > > > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do > fine for now. > > > > LieGrue, > > strub > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > > > >> From: Dan Haywood > >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: > [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > >> To: general@incubator.apache.org > >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > >> Isis mentors: > >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being > >> bootstrapped, > >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > >> mailing list > >> for -dev and -user? > >> Dan > >> > >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > >> wrote: > >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew > Sackswrote: > >> >>> ... > >> >>> *Mailing Lists* > >> >>> > >> >>> kitty-dev > >> >>> kitty-commits > >> >>> kitty-user > >> >>> > >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > >> then splitting the > >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > >> want to keep the users > >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > >> starts to overwhelm the > >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > >> risk never reaching > >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > >> this with a couple > >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > >> > > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > >> done without the > >> > user- list IMO. > >> > > >> > Martijn > >> > >> > >> > - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > -- > Matthias Wessendorf > > blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ > sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf > twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
+1 especially since incubation is about establishing a developers community -M On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: > +1 > > I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) > > I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do fine for > now. > > LieGrue, > strub > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > >> From: Dan Haywood >> Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] >> Kitty to Enter the Incubator) >> To: general@incubator.apache.org >> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM >> Isis mentors: >> Given we're in the same situation and are still being >> bootstrapped, >> should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined >> mailing list >> for -dev and -user? >> Dan >> >> On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein >> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew >> >> Sackswrote: >> >>> ... >> >>> *Mailing Lists* >> >>> >> >>> kitty-dev >> >>> kitty-commits >> >>> kitty-user >> >>> >> >> Is there a large user community already? If not, >> then splitting the >> >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You >> want to keep the users >> >> and developers on the same mailing list until one >> starts to overwhelm the >> >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you >> risk never reaching >> >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. >> > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done >> this with a couple >> > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. >> > >> > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have >> done without the >> > user- list IMO. >> > >> > Martijn >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > -- Matthias Wessendorf blog: http://matthiaswessendorf.wordpress.com/ sessions: http://www.slideshare.net/mwessendorf twitter: http://twitter.com/mwessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
+1 I barely see the users list used in OWB and even in MyFaces ;) I'd say an isis-...@incubator.a.o + isis-comm...@i.a.o list would do fine for now. LieGrue, strub --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Dan Haywood wrote: > From: Dan Haywood > Subject: Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] > Kitty to Enter the Incubator) > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:16 AM > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being > bootstrapped, > should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined > mailing list > for -dev and -user? > Dan > > On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein > wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: > >>> ... > >>> *Mailing Lists* > >>> > >>> kitty-dev > >>> kitty-commits > >>> kitty-user > >>> > >> Is there a large user community already? If not, > then splitting the > >> community across dev/user does not make sense. You > want to keep the users > >> and developers on the same mailing list until one > starts to overwhelm the > >> other. By partitioning the lists too early, you > risk never reaching > >> "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. > > This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done > this with a couple > > of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. > > > > In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have > done without the > > user- list IMO. > > > > Martijn > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Dan Haywood wrote: > Isis mentors: > Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should > we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev > and -user? ... Like Martijn and Greg I think that's a great idea. We ran Sling with just a dev list for > 18 months IIRC and it's been good. Same with Clerezza, also just a dev list, avoids fragmentation. Folks are sometimes shy about asking user questions on dev lists, I'd make it clear on the project website that that's welcome. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
Isis mentors: Given we're in the same situation and are still being bootstrapped, should we follow this advice, ie start off with a combined mailing list for -dev and -user? Dan On 08/09/2010 08:10, Martijn Dashorst wrote: On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sackswrote: ... *Mailing Lists* kitty-dev kitty-commits kitty-user Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the user- list IMO. Martijn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
No dev-, user- lists for small podlings (was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Kitty to Enter the Incubator)
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 20:29, Matthew Sacks wrote: >>... > >> *Mailing Lists* >> >> kitty-dev >> kitty-commits >> kitty-user >> > > Is there a large user community already? If not, then splitting the > community across dev/user does not make sense. You want to keep the users > and developers on the same mailing list until one starts to overwhelm the > other. By partitioning the lists too early, you risk never reaching > "critical mass" on *either* mailing list. This is actually great advice, and I wish we'd done this with a couple of podlings that are currently too small to graduate. In retrospect empire-db and etch really could have done without the user- list IMO. Martijn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
