Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 7/21/06, Dan Diephouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 21:28 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote: snip While I value your feedback and input, if you don't have enough time, I don't understand why you should be a mentor. We have 4 mentors already, and from a logistical standpoint I find it hard to keep up with. Each mentor tends to have a different opinion or different input. While more input can be great, it can easily get to the point of overload and impedes Getting Stuff Done. :-) The Getting Stuff Done part in the project is restricted to the technical part - mentoring is not about getting stuff done. I know a thing or two about the technical area Dan and I darned well will have input on it. Do you see that as a problem too? As I said in the previous message, I value your input. My comment about the mentors and lots of opinions was more in reference to non technical things, like the art of writing an Apache Incubator proposal. i think that's a misunderstanding about the roles and process (which is understandable since the documentation isn't great). during the entry process, the Champion (not the Mentors who are not even formally appointed at this stage), the proposers and the incubator PMC are the main protagonists. proposers have to understand that there are several reasons why a variety of opinions are going to be presented and why there's going to be a lot of discussion. there is no hiding that the democratic nature of the process means lots of talk and not much action. opinions are informed by debate. there's no hiding that there are significant differences of opinion amongst the membership concerning incubation. so more more discussion of each particular case is required than if consensus had been achieved. there's no hiding that the state of the documentation is poor. so currently on-list explanation is necessary. only once a proposal has been formally accepted for incubation by the PMC do people start to being work with their Mentor hats on. sources of friction during incubation are typically stuff like lack of quorum (too few binding votes) and waiting for answers to questions about Apache. so more Mentors should mean less overhead, not more. in terms of oversight, the PMC would be happier with more mentors and Mentors too. it's a lot of hassle all round if lots of PMCers have to jump in and start throwing their weight around in a podling. more mentors and Mentors should mean that the PMC can stay at arms length which means a lot less overhead. - robert
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 7/20/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 21:28 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote: +1 Noel. I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. Hi Sanjiva, I'm confused, you're saying you don't have the time to commit to it, but you want to be one? Mentors have some very concrete responsibilities: You misunderstood as I wasn't clear: I used mentor in the English sense and not in the Mentor role sense. You know, like give some suggestions and maybe even unsolicited advice here and there. I've done that to various projects .. whether I'm a Mentor or not. No one is required to take such advice seriously. Lurk :) After this much noise, I'll probably lurk for a while too. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 21:28 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote: +1 Noel. I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. Hi Sanjiva, I'm confused, you're saying you don't have the time to commit to it, but you want to be one? Mentors have some very concrete responsibilities: You misunderstood as I wasn't clear: I used mentor in the English sense and not in the Mentor role sense. You know, like give some suggestions and maybe even unsolicited advice here and there. I've done that to various projects .. whether I'm a Mentor or not. No one is required to take such advice seriously. That makes more sense now. While I value your feedback and input, if you don't have enough time, I don't understand why you should be a mentor. We have 4 mentors already, and from a logistical standpoint I find it hard to keep up with. Each mentor tends to have a different opinion or different input. While more input can be great, it can easily get to the point of overload and impedes Getting Stuff Done. :-) The Getting Stuff Done part in the project is restricted to the technical part - mentoring is not about getting stuff done. I know a thing or two about the technical area Dan and I darned well will have input on it. Do you see that as a problem too? As I said in the previous message, I value your input. My comment about the mentors and lots of opinions was more in reference to non technical things, like the art of writing an Apache Incubator proposal. Mentors are not there to give input on technical stuff. They are around to ensure that the project behaves and acts as an ASF project (over time)- if you are saying that you don't want any pontificating advice from me on how to run the project, that's totally fine. I have no desire to poke my nose in if its not welcome .. what I said in my email is that I don't have the time to take the Mentor role but that I will mentor where I see something not quite koshure but if that's a problem/concern all is ok fine with me. I hope you will poke your nose in, just as I read the axis list and try to poke my nose in there. Cheers, - Dan -- Dan Diephouse Envoi Solutions http://envoisolutions.com http://netzooid.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
There's a slight difference Dan. As you are a WS committer, you have a right and responsibility to poke your nose and you do have the karma to work on / fix anything you feel like in various ws projects. I hope you appreciate the difference :) -- dims On 7/21/06, Dan Diephouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 21:28 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote: I hope you will poke your nose in, just as I read the axis list and try to poke my nose in there. Cheers, - Dan -- Dan Diephouse Envoi Solutions http://envoisolutions.com http://netzooid.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Jul 21, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Yep, both ws and jakarta have single ACL's. So any committer on any sub-project can *CHOOSE* to participate in any other sub-project. So can anyone who isn't a committer. You don't need commit access to participate. Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Yep Roy. What i meant is a committer on one jakarta project automatically has karma to other jakarta project if they wish to make changes. They can choose to work on the other project if they want to without needing an explicit VOTE. People who are not committers don't have that pleasure. -- dims On 7/21/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 21, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Yep, both ws and jakarta have single ACL's. So any committer on any sub-project can *CHOOSE* to participate in any other sub-project. So can anyone who isn't a committer. You don't need commit access to participate. Roy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Davanum Srinivas wrote: It's also clear at least to me that they don't want any input or rather interference in matters technical either (at least learn from our mistakes!), at least till the current merger is done by which time its too late to align some of the efforts with ongoing work in ws land. I would expect the other Mentors to show the rest of the community how to behave, which means evaluating the technical merits of the proposal. Everyone has a right to contribute, and the community has a right to decide what to do with the contributions. The project is here to incubate. We shouldn't expect them to do the right things right away, and should show them how. And if we can't demonstrate the right behavior, we can't expect them to do so, either. So it starts with us, and with our own community. I'm completely baffled by the definition of community too. Apparently its ok to get folks inolved who have made zero contributions to either codebase BUT wrong to inolve people whose code you want to use (as mentioned in the proposal wss4j/xmlschema/neeti). Again, we can't expect them to behave like a proper community without guidance. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Wed, 2006-07-19 at 21:28 -0400, Dan Diephouse wrote: +1 Noel. I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. Hi Sanjiva, I'm confused, you're saying you don't have the time to commit to it, but you want to be one? Mentors have some very concrete responsibilities: You misunderstood as I wasn't clear: I used mentor in the English sense and not in the Mentor role sense. You know, like give some suggestions and maybe even unsolicited advice here and there. I've done that to various projects .. whether I'm a Mentor or not. No one is required to take such advice seriously. While I value your feedback and input, if you don't have enough time, I don't understand why you should be a mentor. We have 4 mentors already, and from a logistical standpoint I find it hard to keep up with. Each mentor tends to have a different opinion or different input. While more input can be great, it can easily get to the point of overload and impedes Getting Stuff Done. :-) The Getting Stuff Done part in the project is restricted to the technical part - mentoring is not about getting stuff done. I know a thing or two about the technical area Dan and I darned well will have input on it. Do you see that as a problem too? Mentors are not there to give input on technical stuff. They are around to ensure that the project behaves and acts as an ASF project (over time)- if you are saying that you don't want any pontificating advice from me on how to run the project, that's totally fine. I have no desire to poke my nose in if its not welcome .. what I said in my email is that I don't have the time to take the Mentor role but that I will mentor where I see something not quite koshure but if that's a problem/concern all is ok fine with me. Sanjiva. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 18 Jul 06, at 9:38 PM 18 Jul 06, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jason, I am +1 for the project, overall. I do suggest that we start out with the PPMC of you and the other Mentors, have you bring Dan and other appropriate people onto the PMC as your first order of business, and them go about selecting Committers. From what I recall at ApacheCon, there was some uncertaintly about the current roster, so let's allow the PPMC to review and address as appropriate. Sure, once the vote is formally complete and we move on the next phase I'll get that rolling. As was discussed at ApacheCon EU, I hope that the project will continue efforts to collaborate with the rest of the Web Services community at the ASF, because I hate to see wasted, redundant, effort when collaboration is possible. And it certainly appears from discussion that they are willing to explore any number of options. I think Dan has shown from past efforts that he's always worked well with the WS efforts and has a good relationship with them and will continue that trend. The rest of us will follow Dan's example there so I think we'll be fine. So give it your best effort, and good luck. :-) Thanks, much appreciated. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Noel J. Bergman wrote: Some would be highly offended, and a few would bother to look for the signal embedded in the noise. But when one tries to become an active participant in a community, the dynamic changes, and so must one's interactions with others. My point to Mladen, and I believe the point that Jim and others have made, too, is that this is a normal social process that can benefit both the community and the individual. +1; I like the way you put this all. I had mentioned in my last post (in case it didn't stand out)... they would be asked to move on if they can't come to terms with that concept. That's key - participating in open source is evolutionary for the software, and should be evolutionary for the participants ... Software learns new facilities, features, optimizations. Participants learn more coding and architecture/design skills. But we hope participants also learn community skills, from the way things happen within the ASF :) Caution is normal/expected here. But we should also exercise some faith that the problems identified will be resolved, if the team or individuals we raise the problems with are willing to solve them. After all, most all of us are here members of our projects or the ASF because some other members had faith that we would make good participants. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 21:38 -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jason, I am +1 for the project, overall. I do suggest that we start out with the PPMC of you and the other Mentors, have you bring Dan and other appropriate people onto the PMC as your first order of business, and them go about selecting Committers. From what I recall at ApacheCon, there was some uncertaintly about the current roster, so let's allow the PPMC to review and address as appropriate. As was discussed at ApacheCon EU, I hope that the project will continue efforts to collaborate with the rest of the Web Services community at the ASF, because I hate to see wasted, redundant, effort when collaboration is possible. And it certainly appears from discussion that they are willing to explore any number of options. So give it your best effort, and good luck. :-) +1 Noel. I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. Sanjiva. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 23:02 +0100, robert burrell donkin wrote: now hani's becoming a somewhat important and certainly famous figure in the java ecosystem i hope that he'd start to realize that some people are hurt by his offensive posts and lay off the personal stuff with those folks who don't appreciate his humour. Personally speaking I wasn't hurt buy the crap he writes on his blog. However, I will not tolerate any personal attacks on ASF lists and if any of that spills over to the blog I will not tolerate it either. Hurt? No. Tolerate? No either. Sanjiva. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 21:38 -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jason, I am +1 for the project, overall. I do suggest that we start out with the PPMC of you and the other Mentors, have you bring Dan and other appropriate people onto the PMC as your first order of business, and them go about selecting Committers. From what I recall at ApacheCon, there was some uncertaintly about the current roster, so let's allow the PPMC to review and address as appropriate. As was discussed at ApacheCon EU, I hope that the project will continue efforts to collaborate with the rest of the Web Services community at the ASF, because I hate to see wasted, redundant, effort when collaboration is possible. And it certainly appears from discussion that they are willing to explore any number of options. So give it your best effort, and good luck. :-) +1 Noel. I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. Hi Sanjiva, I'm confused, you're saying you don't have the time to commit to it, but you want to be one? Mentors have some very concrete responsibilities: http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor While I value your feedback and input, if you don't have enough time, I don't understand why you should be a mentor. We have 4 mentors already, and from a logistical standpoint I find it hard to keep up with. Each mentor tends to have a different opinion or different input. While more input can be great, it can easily get to the point of overload and impedes Getting Stuff Done. :-) - Dan -- Dan Diephouse Envoi Solutions http://envoisolutions.com http://netzooid.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Dan Diephouse wrote: Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: I'd like to join the PPMC too as an interested party observer. I will poke my nose in as a mentor when possible but don't have the cycles to commit to it. While I value your feedback and input, if you don't have enough time, I don't understand why you should be a mentor. We have 4 mentors already, and from a logistical standpoint I find it hard to keep up with. Each mentor tends to have a different opinion or different input. While more input can be great, it can easily get to the point of overload and impedes Getting Stuff Done. :-) Sanjiva is an Incubator PMC member, and entitled to voice (and vote) where and how he sees fit within the Incubator. He, like every other Incubator PMC member, has earned that right. And it is good that you value his feedback and input. As for your legitimate concern, if you do find that there are discordant views coming to CeltixFire from the PMC, please first discuss it within the project, and if that doesn't help to resolve it, inform the Incubator PMC so that we can address the problem. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Jason van Zyl wrote: Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? Just want to move on to the next phase of the process if that is permissible at this point. Here are the votes that have been cast thus far: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 18 Jul 06, at 9:46 AM 18 Jul 06, Mladen Turk wrote: Jason van Zyl wrote: Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? Just want to move on to the next phase of the process if that is permissible at this point. Here are the votes that have been cast thus far: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( I don't think it's that hard to get onto the Incubator PMC and thus have your vote be binding. Being on the Incubator PMC just gives some indication that you're committed to being involved. There isn't a high barrier to entry, you don't even have to be a member as the existing PMC can bring anyone aboard and not meant to be exclusionary. The process can, admittedly, be somewhat bureaucratic but not closed. Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
I started writing a long draft probably 10 times, but stopped short of pressing the send button. At this point, i know exactly who will say what, no matter which position i take (based on feedback i got during ApacheCon EU). I am happy that Peter and Jim are there as mentors. I trust them and other mentors to do the right thing. which ever right thing they believe in. Wish the people involved the best of luck. You all know where to find me and others who are working on the same/similar set of problems when the time comes. thanks, -- dims On 7/17/06, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17 Jul 06, at 7:47 AM 17 Jul 06, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 7/17/06, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? AFAICT there is no official position or consensus on this. see this thread: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/ 200607.mbox/% [EMAIL PROTECTED] seems best left to a the judgement of the champion. note that Sanjiva's vote was posted only a few hours ago so it's possible that there may be a few more stragglers... Yah, no particular rush. I'll probably let it bake for a couple more days to see what shakes out but I'll prepare for the next step as everything is positive thus far. jason. - robert Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Jason van Zyl wrote: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( I don't think it's that hard to get onto the Incubator PMC and thus have your vote be binding. Being on the Incubator PMC just gives some indication that you're committed to being involved. Well, I just expressed my opinion as an ASF member, because this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it. I doubt me being on the PMC would change anything. Since only PMC and Board votes count (the same one we elected), I'll recognise any decision made, and never say anything opposite once when accepted/rejected. Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Jul 18, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Mladen Turk wrote: Well, I just expressed my opinion as an ASF member, because this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it. It is possible to respect other's feelings without agreeing with them. That's the case here. I'll recognise any decision made, and never say anything opposite once when accepted/rejected. Please don't. It is very valuable to have differing opinions. -pete -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://fotap.org/~osi smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Jul 18, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Mladen Turk wrote: Jason van Zyl wrote: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( I don't think it's that hard to get onto the Incubator PMC and thus have your vote be binding. Being on the Incubator PMC just gives some indication that you're committed to being involved. Well, I just expressed my opinion as an ASF member, because this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it. As a proposed Mentor, I resent that. In fact, if people have been following some of the other discussions regarding the proposal (such as how quickly the external projects will close down) they would be surprised to know that I *am* a proposed Mentor. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 18 Jul 06, at 11:04 AM 18 Jul 06, Mladen Turk wrote: Jason van Zyl wrote: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( I don't think it's that hard to get onto the Incubator PMC and thus have your vote be binding. Being on the Incubator PMC just gives some indication that you're committed to being involved. Well, I just expressed my opinion as an ASF member, because this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it. I don't think there is any disrespect but there may be a difference of opinion but that's not the same thing. There's always going to be a difference of opinion about what projects people think are appropriate or not, or what people others think are appropriate or not. It's not a matter of impropriety or disrespect, it's a matter of opinion and everyone has one. I doubt me being on the PMC would change anything. Since only PMC and Board votes count (the same one we elected), I'll recognise any decision made, and never say anything opposite once when accepted/rejected. Regards, Mladen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Mladen Turk wrote: So you wouldn't mind of mine humble non binding -1 vote. Like said, I don't have nothing against that project, but like in many things in life even the ASF seems to behave in the spirit of: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. That's very sad :( Context? To what double standard are you refering, and whom are you casting in the roles of Jupiter and the ox? Binding vs non-binding aside, would you agree that accepting for Incubation would be a policy matter, so 3 +1 and more +1 than -1, right? Could you also clarify what you mean by this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it, so that I understand what your concerns are, specifically? Is it about anything other than the BileBlog author? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Jul 18, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Mladen Turk wrote: Jason van Zyl wrote: Well, I just expressed my opinion as an ASF member, because this project and their mentors show no respect to the other members feelings about it. I don't think there is any disrespect but there may be a difference of opinion but that's not the same thing. There's always going to be a difference of opinion about what projects people think are appropriate or not, or what people others think are appropriate or not. It's not a matter of impropriety or disrespect, it's a matter of opinion and everyone has one. Well, it's my opinion, and I've express it. You know the reason, and I'm standing behind it, because I saw nothing but even greater disregard to the ASF community. Anyhow, the project is probably more valuable then a simple 'what makes the ASF' philosophy, and since some members thinks that insulting our fellows is actually a great joke, and something one should be proud off, I'm fine. Well, let me just say that once a project is within the incubator, and someone is on the PPMC, things become very different. Community over code is not just a cool catch phrase. I have no hesitation at all regarding people and podlings being removed if they don't get it. just my 2c - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On Jul 18, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jim Jagielski wrote: Mladen Turk wrote: since some members thinks that insulting our fellows is actually a great joke, and something one should be proud off, I'm fine. Well, let me just say that once a project is within the incubator, and someone is on the PPMC, things become very different. William Rowe's response to him fairly well summed up the issue(s). I have relatively little concern regarding castigating projects for failings, even if the criticism could be expressed more constructively than acerbically. BUT we do not accept personal attacks, and will not tolerate them on someone's blog anymore than on a mailing list. To get very specific, I understand that posting insults on Apache mailing lists is forbidden. But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog, or something else? In other words, what limitations on his freedom of speech are we requiring? Craig I have no hesitation at all regarding people and podlings being removed if they don't get it. Hopefully, it has been made clear to him that blog entries that in his own words degenerate into my usual personal insult comfort zone will not be acceptable from here on out. Since he has the ability to recognize that tendency in himself, then he should be expected to exercise some self-control rather than indulge himself. It would be a sad commentary if he had to be excluded because of an inability to curtail his self-described random blathering that serves no particular purpose than ranting for ranting's sake. Most people learn at least minimally appropriate self-control for their culture in social situations relatively earler in life than we see them at the ASF. So if the consenus is to have him participate, we will expect the Mentors to take any remedial action as necessary. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Craig Russell Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo 408 276-5638 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
IMHO, Anyone can say anything he/she wants on any forum. I just checked my responses to the threads that i posted [1] and i don't see me asking anyone to change any behavior. If i did, please accept my apologies. After all, it's a free country. thanks, dims [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-generalw=2r=1s=haniq=b On 7/18/06, Craig L Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 18, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jim Jagielski wrote: Mladen Turk wrote: since some members thinks that insulting our fellows is actually a great joke, and something one should be proud off, I'm fine. Well, let me just say that once a project is within the incubator, and someone is on the PPMC, things become very different. William Rowe's response to him fairly well summed up the issue(s). I have relatively little concern regarding castigating projects for failings, even if the criticism could be expressed more constructively than acerbically. BUT we do not accept personal attacks, and will not tolerate them on someone's blog anymore than on a mailing list. To get very specific, I understand that posting insults on Apache mailing lists is forbidden. But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog, or something else? In other words, what limitations on his freedom of speech are we requiring? Craig I have no hesitation at all regarding people and podlings being removed if they don't get it. Hopefully, it has been made clear to him that blog entries that in his own words degenerate into my usual personal insult comfort zone will not be acceptable from here on out. Since he has the ability to recognize that tendency in himself, then he should be expected to exercise some self-control rather than indulge himself. It would be a sad commentary if he had to be excluded because of an inability to curtail his self-described random blathering that serves no particular purpose than ranting for ranting's sake. Most people learn at least minimally appropriate self-control for their culture in social situations relatively earler in life than we see them at the ASF. So if the consenus is to have him participate, we will expect the Mentors to take any remedial action as necessary. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Craig Russell Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo 408 276-5638 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! -- Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Craig L Russell wrote: On Jul 18, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: William Rowe's response to him fairly well summed up the issue(s). I have relatively little concern regarding castigating projects for failings, even if the criticism could be expressed more constructively than acerbically. BUT we do not accept personal attacks, and will not tolerate them on someone's blog anymore than on a mailing list. To get very specific, I understand that posting insults on Apache mailing lists is forbidden. But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog, or something else? What part of Noel's post is not clear to you? On list, on their blog, in the trade rags, wherever... none of that bears any distinction. In other words, what limitations on his freedom of speech are we requiring? All members have an absolute freedom of speech. And those that really exercise it to demean their fellow committers, PMC members, the foundation as a whole do risk being cut out of their PMC participation. We have a very simple metric - are you criticizing the code, the coder's choices, or engaging in playground character attacks? If you enjoy the later, be our guest; not as a spokesman of the foundation, nor probably not as spokesman for your project. Every PMC member speaks for their project, every member speaks for the ASF in some small measure. You can play the I was wearing my OTHER hat song, but that is really moot. Reminds me of the recent decisions that student's posts on their myspace blogs can (if brought to the attention of the school) carry the same measure they would if spoken at the school. Well ... DUH! You want to admit on such a public forum you were smoking dope in the school smoking area ... DUH! You want to threaten or bully a fellow student ... DUH! It's a public forum they have posted to, so sure, it's the same thing. All the ASF members expect of each other is that we are open source coders and treat each other with a certain level of dignity. If it would get you thrown out of your teaching post, or your broadcasting job, or any of hundreds of similar scenarios for baseless character attacks, then yes; it wouldn't be tolerated from a PMC member or foundation member, and they would be asked to move on if they can't come to terms with that concept. You are welcome to be an open source developer with any views on the world whatsoever, and voice them widely. If you disagree on a fundamental level that developers treat each other with some dignity and debate code not people, or you disagree with the spirit of the Apache Software License or collaborative meritocratic development models, there are many better homes for your efforts than here at the ASF. We aren't repressing people here, we are asking if they can act like adults, and if not, we solve the issue. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 7/18/06, Craig L Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 18, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Jim Jagielski wrote: Mladen Turk wrote: since some members thinks that insulting our fellows is actually a great joke, and something one should be proud off, I'm fine. Well, let me just say that once a project is within the incubator, and someone is on the PPMC, things become very different. William Rowe's response to him fairly well summed up the issue(s). I have relatively little concern regarding castigating projects for failings, even if the criticism could be expressed more constructively than acerbically. BUT we do not accept personal attacks, and will not tolerate them on someone's blog anymore than on a mailing list. To get very specific, I understand that posting insults on Apache mailing lists is forbidden. i'm not sure that forbidden is quite the right word: perhaps something more like socially unacceptable and extremely counter-productive would be closer to the truth. the right atmosphere on list is really important but it's often proved easier to achieve this by setting a good example than by being drawn into threats. But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog, or something else? In other words, what limitations on his freedom of speech are we requiring? i'm not sure that there is enough consensus to use the collective. there seems very much a plurality of opinions. personally speaking, i'm happy to judge him by his posts on list. now hani's becoming a somewhat important and certainly famous figure in the java ecosystem i hope that he'd start to realize that some people are hurt by his offensive posts and lay off the personal stuff with those folks who don't appreciate his humour. - robert
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Craig Russell wrote: To get very specific, I understand that posting insults on Apache mailing lists is forbidden. Correct. But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or No, I am not saying that. Personally, I am not narcissistic enough to bother to blog, but you certainly don't want to get me started on the current Administration (or Regime, as I might refer to it in a more charitable moment), for example. no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or Nope, not saying that, either. For example, I have commented about certain clueless behavior regarding NIO and Tomcat, and was happy to hear at ApacheCon EU that the Tomcat PMC has finally gotten a clue for Tomcat 6. Ok, that's a bit snippy, but not personal, and technically oriented. And I have been highly critical of Maven's irresponsibly naive use of automatically downloaded artifacts. But I have also justified the comments, and made concrete suggestions for resolving the concerns. Again, without calling into question the integrity or intelligence of people working on the project. no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog But, yes, *that* I am saying. Others may see it differently, but my view is that you cannot draw boundaries around public content. The Internet is one big conversation/social interaction, and what one says in public is connected to everywhere. what limitations on his freedom of speech are we requiring? He can say whatever he wants, with the expectation that the consequences of repeated and excessively antagonistic/intimidating/abusive speech are not likely to be different from those experienced within any social group. Please tell me in which social situation(s) such behavior would be deemed acceptable and tolerated by the group subjected to it. Generally speaking, the social group finds ways to apply corrective measures as necessary until the desired behavioral modification occurs. No one expects or wants Stepford Committers. We're talking about normal social skills that are generally learned by one's early teen years, although I do wonder if today's latchkey kids are growing up anonymously on the Internet without benefit of learning some of those lessons. But presumably he has these skills in real life, and simply exhibits the interesting phenomena where some people perceive the Internet as a realm within which one can abandon normal social skills. One of the things that ApacheCon helps to do by introducing people to each other is remind people that they are conversing with fellow human beings, and not faceless exemplars of the Turing Test. The consequences of a group such as the ASF tolerating such behavior stem from, amongst other things, the tendency of many other contributors to just abandon the field rather than put up with such individuals. Much of the damage is hard to quantify, because unlike in a physical encounter, on the Internet we cannot see the people who walk up to our circle and observe, only to turn around in disgust and leave rather than join. --- Noel smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Jason, I am +1 for the project, overall. I do suggest that we start out with the PPMC of you and the other Mentors, have you bring Dan and other appropriate people onto the PMC as your first order of business, and them go about selecting Committers. From what I recall at ApacheCon, there was some uncertaintly about the current roster, so let's allow the PPMC to review and address as appropriate. As was discussed at ApacheCon EU, I hope that the project will continue efforts to collaborate with the rest of the Web Services community at the ASF, because I hate to see wasted, redundant, effort when collaboration is possible. And it certainly appears from discussion that they are willing to explore any number of options. So give it your best effort, and good luck. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I do suggest that we start out with the PPMC of you and the other Mentors, have you bring Dan and other appropriate people onto the PMC [...] sigh Typo. Hopefully that was obvious. Meant to say PPMC. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: Craig L Russell wrote: But are you also saying that we expect him to: no longer post insults regarding any topic on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache project on bileblog, or no longer post insults regarding any Apache committer on bileblog, or something else? What part of Noel's post is not clear to you? On list, on their blog, in the trade rags, wherever... none of that bears any distinction. Please look again at Craig's questions. He was asking about what, not where. And the reply is that personal attacks are what we are discussing. I was not surprised to read that the pushback over personal attacks on bileblog was shocking and unexpected. Consider how people learn social skills. It is the responsibility of the community to provide corrective feedback on one's behavior.The sheer scale of the Internet population, combined with a human tendency to self-organize into cliques, almost ensures that anyone can attract followers to provide inappropriate positive feedback, leading the antagonist to a false sense of justification and entitlement. You can observe the same behavior on any playground. It is a bit harsh to blame someone who has never been taught any better by the community. To date, the issue has been remote enough that many would ignore the diatribes, or write them off as vaguely amusing tantrums. Some would be highly offended, and a few would bother to look for the signal embedded in the noise. But when one tries to become an active participant in a community, the dynamic changes, and so must one's interactions with others. My point to Mladen, and I believe the point that Jim and others have made, too, is that this is a normal social process that can benefit both the community and the individual. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? Just want to move on to the next phase of the process if that is permissible at this point. Here are the votes that have been cast thus far: Jason van Zyl Matthias Wessendorf (non-binding) James Strachan Peter Royal Alex Karasulu Brett Porter Rob Davies (non-binding) Martin van den Bemt Robert Burrell Donkin Sanjiva Weerawarana Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 7/17/06, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? AFAICT there is no official position or consensus on this. see this thread: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200607.mbox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] seems best left to a the judgement of the champion. note that Sanjiva's vote was posted only a few hours ago so it's possible that there may be a few more stragglers... - robert
Re: [VOTE] [UPDATE] CeltiXfire Project Proposal
On 17 Jul 06, at 7:47 AM 17 Jul 06, robert burrell donkin wrote: On 7/17/06, Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, So far we have 8 binding votes and I was wondering what the official time period was for the voting window? Is it 72 hours as it is for everything else? AFAICT there is no official position or consensus on this. see this thread: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/ 200607.mbox/% [EMAIL PROTECTED] seems best left to a the judgement of the champion. note that Sanjiva's vote was posted only a few hours ago so it's possible that there may be a few more stragglers... Yah, no particular rush. I'll probably let it bake for a couple more days to see what shakes out but I'll prepare for the next step as everything is positive thus far. jason. - robert Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
