Re: Incentive for Graduation
I just posted the answer comments to the reports wiki (trinidad) -M On 3/26/07, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Justin Erenkrantz wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > > what's the incentive for a project [to] push for diversity/graduation? > > That's an appropriate and important question. > They can release without the Incubator PMC looking over their > shoulder? Less bureaucracy is probably appreciated. Well, I note that Jukka has been asking the standard question on the reports (What needs to be done to graduate?), and few projects have replied. Do they not know? Do they not care? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Matthias Wessendorf http://tinyurl.com/fmywh further stuff: blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Incentive for Graduation
Justin Erenkrantz wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > > what's the incentive for a project [to] push for diversity/graduation? > > That's an appropriate and important question. > They can release without the Incubator PMC looking over their > shoulder? Less bureaucracy is probably appreciated. Well, I note that Jukka has been asking the standard question on the reports (What needs to be done to graduate?), and few projects have replied. Do they not know? Do they not care? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Incentive for Graduation
Niclas Hedhman wrote: > No community -> no releases ?? Minimal community != none. Lack of diversity != none. Lack of releases may be viewed as blocking community development. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On 3/18/07, Guillaume Nodet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So the problem is when a single company provides resources for a given project. In such a case, other committers usually come from the user community and this takes time. I think that one of the goal of the podling should be to build a user community, so that users can become developers. So not allowing podlings to release anything will certainly not help building / growing the user community, hence the dev community. +1. This is the situation for the UIMA podling. UIMA has had many pre-apache releases and already has a significant user base. We want to get that user base moved over to using Apache UIMA and we think that will help with building our community of developers. To that end we just put out our first incubating release. If we couldn't put out a release I think we would have serious difficulties getting our users to switch to the latest version of the code, and this in turn would make it hard for them to become contributors. -Adam - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
"Davanum Srinivas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Niclas, > > Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer > and regular releases. Then they shouldn't have regular releases. I think Niclas's suggestions on community requirements for releases are fine, particularly for podlings that have been incubating for some time. The incubator, as it stands, is a big stick. Getting out (as Bill points out) is a carrot all of its own. If the mentors think a project has lost it's incentive, then they need to discuss the issue with the committers and put together a solution or look at termination. It's not that hard of a problem. -- jaaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
And zero incentive to ever graduate. The point is that we've taken
this position because an incubating project ISN'T permitted to operate
or publicize as an ASF Project.
It's accepted, but the podling is accepted provisionally. Abuse of the
Apache name results in ejection of the podling.
We seek to avoid two things; 1) that the project isn't a code dump, and
will have a community at Apache and 2) the project isn't a branding move,
and the community will act as an Apache community/meritocracy and follow
the open development process that we've build the foundation upon.
It takes time to prove both of these points. Several folks have asked
that we move releases to www.apache.org/dist/incubator/{podling}/ which
would be fine (/dist/{podling} would not). Folks have asked if Maven
should be hosting them in a separate incubating space (or not separate,
or not at all) and that's really a Maven decision as long as they have
the -incbuating designation.
But I'm only concerned that we don't relax the promotion/branding
constraints, and that is one of the biggest incentives to an project.
Nobody wants to say that their "Foo project is a probationary project
at the ASF which will become a full project some day." We hope the
devs would rather stand out as an "Apache Foo project". And that still
seems to be the biggest incentive to graduate.
Bill
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Niclas,
>
> Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer
> and regular releases.
>
> -- dims
>
> On 3/17/07, Niclas Hedhman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Friday 16 March 2007 19:46, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> > What are we going to do
>> > about projects that will show signs of life but will remain in
>> > incubator for a very long time. when do we kick them out? 3 years? 5
>> > years?
>>
>> No community -> no releases ??
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Niclas
>>
>> -
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>>
>>
>
>
-
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Re: Incentive for Graduation
On Mar 18, 2007, at 4:08 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: Irregardless of that, the IPMC could stipulate that releases are "final stepping stones" towards graduation, and require an active and diverse community to allow for releases. After all, it is the Incubator that does the release (legally) and not the podling. Personally, I think it makes sense. I could also see good argument to allow for one or two 'early releases' which don't require this. SO the setup is a huge deterrent to "get cozy in the Incubator", not too different from the human incubator, where the baby will try to stay on, and the mother's body will starve it of the resources to force a birth ;o) Those 'early' releases could perhaps be source-only with some latitude for existing open source projects. That's a deterrent for commercial entities but supports the goal of building the podling's developer community. -- Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On Sunday 18 March 2007 21:16, Guillaume Nodet wrote: > I don't think this would be a good idea to not allow one podling > to release anything. See my disclaimer, that I think it is reasonable to allow 'limited' releases. Point is to deter the 'coziness' and force graduation. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
I don't think this would be a good idea to not allow one podling to release anything. Let me state my thoughts: the goal of a podling is to build a lively and heterogeneous community to be able to graduate. Usually, there is one or more company behind a project. If there are more than one company, the community will not be completely homogeneous, so things will be eased. So the problem is when a single company provides resources for a given project. In such a case, other committers usually come from the user community and this takes time. I think that one of the goal of the podling should be to build a user community, so that users can become developers. So not allowing podlings to release anything will certainly not help building / growing the user community, hence the dev community. Cheers, Guillaume Nodet Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Niclas, > > Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer > and regular releases. > > -- dims > > On 3/17/07, Niclas Hedhman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Friday 16 March 2007 19:46, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> > What are we going to do >> > about projects that will show signs of life but will remain in >> > incubator for a very long time. when do we kick them out? 3 years? 5 >> > years? >> >> No community -> no releases ?? >> >> >> Cheers >> Niclas >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On Saturday 17 March 2007 21:54, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > On 3/17/07, Niclas Hedhman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No community -> no releases ?? > Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer > and regular releases. Sorry, I don't fully follow. I thought you were speaking "in general", and your comment to Ant Elder seems to still suggest that, so what do you mean "scenario"? Irregardless of that, the IPMC could stipulate that releases are "final stepping stones" towards graduation, and require an active and diverse community to allow for releases. After all, it is the Incubator that does the release (legally) and not the podling. Personally, I think it makes sense. I could also see good argument to allow for one or two 'early releases' which don't require this. SO the setup is a huge deterrent to "get cozy in the Incubator", not too different from the human incubator, where the baby will try to stay on, and the mother's body will starve it of the resources to force a birth ;o) Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
Ant, No, question is not about tuscancy. It's a general question as the situation can arise in the future where someone is trying to game the system. thanks, dims On 3/17/07, ant elder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 3/17/07, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Niclas, > > Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer > and regular releases. Are you talking about Tuscany still? Not all the Tuscany committers are from the one employer. There's 25 committers now, only 16 of those from the main employer which makes it 64%. ...ant -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 3/17/07, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Niclas, Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer and regular releases. Are you talking about Tuscany still? Not all the Tuscany committers are from the one employer. There's 25 committers now, only 16 of those from the main employer which makes it 64%. ...ant
Re: Incentive for Graduation
Niclas, Here the scenario is a project with all committers from one employer and regular releases. -- dims On 3/17/07, Niclas Hedhman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Friday 16 March 2007 19:46, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > What are we going to do > about projects that will show signs of life but will remain in > incubator for a very long time. when do we kick them out? 3 years? 5 > years? No community -> no releases ?? Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On Friday 16 March 2007 19:46, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > What are we going to do > about projects that will show signs of life but will remain in > incubator for a very long time. when do we kick them out? 3 years? 5 > years? No community -> no releases ?? Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
Justin, From previous experience as mentor, i can safely say that it is very easy to push out releases by getting a few incubator pmc votes than it is to attract new committers and more importantly keep them engaged. Am afraid we are removing that incentive. What are we going to do about projects that will show signs of life but will remain in incubator for a very long time. when do we kick them out? 3 years? 5 years? thanks, dims On 3/16/07, Justin Erenkrantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/15/07, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > what's the incentive for a project [to] push for diversity/graduation? > > That's an appropriate and important question. They can release without the Incubator PMC looking over their shoulder? Less bureaucracy is probably appreciated. -- justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On 3/15/07, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > what's the incentive for a project [to] push for diversity/graduation? That's an appropriate and important question. They can release without the Incubator PMC looking over their shoulder? Less bureaucracy is probably appreciated. -- justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Incentive for Graduation
Dims, Let's focus this on the general part of your question: > what's the incentive for a project [to] push for diversity/graduation? That's an appropriate and important question. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Incentive for Graduation
On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:59 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Frank Question, Would your vote be the same if you thought Tuscany would graduate very soon? Yes, my vote has nothing to do with Tuscany. I'm actually pretty ambivalent about the result and was voting more for consistency across TLPs than any other reason. My opinion is that the dist/ incubator location, the file name, and the disclaimer everywhere give users more than adequate notice that a project is incubating and that more is just a bit of overkill but short of being asked to VOTE on it I'll go with the flow. The primary issue for me in Craig's reply was whether stuff generated by podlings gets any legal protection from the ASF. If it doesn't, then there's no difference between my uploading stuff to dist/ incubator or the incubating repo or to some random server. If the Release is not an action by the Foundation then I personally (and potentially my employer if I had one) would be liable and that's rather unnerving. In other words, what's the incentive for a project (full of committers from one employer) to push for diversity/graduation? I think in that situation (e.g. Tuscany) the employer has its own motivations for graduation and generally wants that to happen as quickly as possible - no additional incentive is required. The challenge is in getting them to understand what is required, especially the necessity of losing control through diversity - i.e. "no single company or entity that is vital to the success of the project." The ultimate incentive I think though should be more stick than carrot. If a project doesn't start acting like an Apache one, and exhausts its Mentors' energy to mentor, then it should simply be Terminated. -- Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
