subject:"Re\: \[GRN\] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal"

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-13 Thread albert . ro


 Who said ,They indeed, need us Portuguese to go back there.

End of CPLP? Russia continues its policy of expanding influence in  
Africa and signed a military agreement with São Tomé and Príncipe.  
Soon, it will be able to strengthen ties with Guinea-Bissau.


This military cooperation agreement between Russia and São Tomé and  
Príncipe was signed on April 24th and came into force on May 5th.


 SUBJECT: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa,  
the president of Portugal



Hello Nuno,

 

I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was  
replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists  
for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese  
colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted  
equality between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion,  
in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese  
colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar  
Cabral affirmed that if an African could be President of the country  
most probably would have no reasons to want to become independent.  
For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of  
colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a  
complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I think  
it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the  
acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of  
hospitality and of social justice. 


 

Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of  
a certain body of principles by a state is important and itself  
carries a transformative potential with practical consequences. That  
is why I think that we need to give importance to the rupture  
regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced  
by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to  
solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the  
acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of  
man inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a  
pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused such  
inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such  
contradiction was actually fully addressed by the liberals and  
republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it was  
not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never  
closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change  
with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke  
such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among  
other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira  
da Silva's work, starting with /Constitucionalismo e Império. A  
cidadania no Ultramar português/ (2009) and /A Construção jurídica  
dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX/ (2017). Your  
argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a  
common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually  
working on that are the African postcolonial countries for a set of  
reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" would take us far...


 

best wishes,

 

Sandra

 

 

 

Sandra Ataíde Lobo  

         

Home (gieipc-ip.org)[1]                               
https://praticasdahistoria.pt/


tmn. ++351 930690459

 

 

-

DE: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net  


ENVIADO: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37
PARA: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com 
ASSUNTO: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa,  
the president of Portugal

 

Sandra,

 

You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the  
"Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas  
traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always  
referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to  
Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always  
called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the  
Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished  
in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with  
the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced  
labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our  
influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only  
of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the  
strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the  
benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much  
due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes,  
colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's  
rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I  
believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains  
as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid,  
prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the  
recognition of the evil

Re: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-10 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Dear Sandra,

I just wanted to let you know I have just received a copy of Constitucionalismo e Império which I had ordered. It seems most interesting and I am soon going to start reading it. I would like to thank you for the suggestion, which will enable me to learn a lot more about this most interesting subject.

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM
From: "sandra lobo"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Hello Nuno,

I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted equality between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion, in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral affirmed that if an African could be President of the country most probably would have no reasons to want to become independent. For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I think it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of hospitality and of social justice.

Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain body of principles by a state is important and itself carries a transformative potential with practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give importance to the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of man inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused such inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such contradiction was actually fully addressed by the liberals and republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it was not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting with Constitucionalismo e Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and A Construção jurídica dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX (2017). Your argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that are the African postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" would take us far...

best wishes,

Sandra

Sandra Ataíde Lobo

Home (gieipc-ip.org) https://praticasdahistoria.pt/

tmn. ++351 930690459

De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net
Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37
Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Sandra,

You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as "Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, only the recognition of the evil things we were responsible for, which we do. Marcelo should have kept his mouth shut...

Best wishes

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-07 Thread albert . ro

Pedro.

Both photos are shocking. A rarity and unique.

I will send it to my friends in Mozambique.

Thank you very much.

Alberto

Nuno

I never hated the Portuguese people. In this forum participants must
discuss ideas and not attack people. Beware of your extremism. I
replicated what the president of Portugal said regarding reparations
and that the whole world is discussing now. I understand your despair.

If colonization was a good thing, why did the oppressed take up arms
and fight until the racists were expelled?

In my last intervention I even wrote “We are not talking about the
Portuguese people who on April 25, 2024 took to the streets to
express the joy of democracy.….The big fish were the colonies and
the fisherman is Salazar. “

Don't try to manipulate historical truths. Here are two examples of
racism in the colonies.

A-The «civilized» people sitting and the slaves standing and barefoot.

B- Salaries depending on breeds.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to

goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

To view this discussion on the web, visit

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/264190978.480122.1714987495698%40mail.yahoo.com

- Fim da mensagem de 'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net
-

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to goa-research-net+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20240507122323.Horde.Lei2JaRkuNK2VIuAEK5oV0A%40mail.sapo.pt.

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-07 Thread Joana Filipa Passos

Hello everyone.
I think foruns are good to let people express themselves, but we still have
to learn how to communicate better.
As Portuguese, I think the discussion of some form of reparation is
complex, necessary, and I am not sure that (unwillingly) Marcelo did not
trivialize the subject instead of launching a serious debate. It is not
something to be started in a meeting with journalists. It is something to
be addressed by the  MPs at our National Assembly, where all the
sensitivities are represented, from extreme left to extreme right.
I believe in some symbolical gestures, formal apologies, the return of some
works of art, and improved diplomatic relations between the two countries.
In time, we will get there.
I also want to add that colonialism is wrong, but we are witnessing new
forms of colonialism (Ucraine, GAZA), which makes me think we, humankind,
do not learn from history.
Joana

Joao Paulo Cota  escreveu (segunda, 6/05/2024 à(s)
17:51):

> The return of looted items is morally right in this day and age.
> One cannot change the past with a Cntrl+Z  buttons kind of action, but at
> least the physical remains of this wrong side of history can be made right.
> Macron can do better by cancelling Haiti's illegal debt and return all the
> moneys collected so far, with interest.
> 'Compensation' to ex-colonies could be in the form of programs/projects
> aimed to develop and help these suffering nations, who had been deprived to
> progress independently. Sending used tech, etc. to help those in need to
> stand on their two own feet.
> On the other side of the argument, most nations in Africa are now
> independent for decades and super rich in resources.
> Where is all the money going and how have they progressed?
> African people must stop moaning against the colonialists and instead
> ensure they elect the right people to govern them, those who have an agenda
> to bring prosperity.
> I think Santos and his witch daughter Isabel have looted Angola far much
> more than the Portuguese ever did for centuries, whist he was in power.
> Of course, local Angolans lack grey matter to complain on real issues
> affecting them, like joblessness to youth, and Jose Lourenco alone cannot
> eradiate corruption.
> The entire continent is an almighty mess and now experiencing a second
> colonial phase, an economic one, disguised as Chinese and Russian help.
> They are just looting the place up and nobody seems to care...
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com <
> goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> on behalf of albert...@sapo.pt <
> albert...@sapo.pt>
> *Sent:* 06 May 2024 10:30
> *To:* goa-research-net@googlegroups.com  >
> *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
> president of Portugal
>
> Nuno
> You exaggerated by attributing the term “hate Portugal” to Pedro, since
> nowhere in his texts did I find this proof. The Forum is for discussing
> opinions and not for attacking others. Whoever has no arguments offends
> others. I know some old people feel insignificant since the loss of the
> empire.
> The payment of compensation to former colonies is a source of disagreement
> among historians and activists — despite some having already been carried
> out by Portugal. But the return of works of art is less controversial. The
> return of cultural works and objects looted by colonizing countries has
> been repeated over the years in countries such as France, Germany,
> Switzerland or the Netherlands (even the United Kingdom has already begun
> to return looted objects, after removing the idea).
> These are the most developed societies, especially France led by Macron.
> Regards
> Alberto.
> - Mensagem de 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net <
> goa-research-net@googlegroups.com> -
> Data: Sun, 5 May 2024 19:10:08 +0200
> De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net <
> goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>
> Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the
> president of Portugal
> Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
>
> Pedro,
>
> You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable source of
> information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions. We did enough bad
> things throughout our history not to need your fairytales to pass judgement
> on us. When I was teaching at the university, in Lisbon, one of my
> colleague professors was a black Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA
> and had been sent to the São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his
> experience there and he told me he had never been tortured or mistreated,
> although conditions were rough. I have no doubt torture was used under
> certain circumstances, but people who were already convicted of deeds
> against the security of the state, and were already in prison, had no
> reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The idea was to keep them
> away and prevent them from continuing fighting against Portuguese rule. As
>

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread Joao Paulo Cota

The return of looted items is morally right in this day and age.
One cannot change the past with a Cntrl+Z  buttons kind of action, but at least 
the physical remains of this wrong side of history can be made right.
Macron can do better by cancelling Haiti's illegal debt and return all the 
moneys collected so far, with interest.
'Compensation' to ex-colonies could be in the form of programs/projects aimed 
to develop and help these suffering nations, who had been deprived to progress 
independently. Sending used tech, etc. to help those in need to stand on their 
two own feet.
On the other side of the argument, most nations in Africa are now independent 
for decades and super rich in resources.
Where is all the money going and how have they progressed?
African people must stop moaning against the colonialists and instead ensure 
they elect the right people to govern them, those who have an agenda to bring 
prosperity.
I think Santos and his witch daughter Isabel have looted Angola far much more 
than the Portuguese ever did for centuries, whist he was in power.
Of course, local Angolans lack grey matter to complain on real issues affecting 
them, like joblessness to youth, and Jose Lourenco alone cannot eradiate 
corruption.
The entire continent is an almighty mess and now experiencing a second colonial 
phase, an economic one, disguised as Chinese and Russian help.
They are just looting the place up and nobody seems to care...





From: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of albert...@sapo.pt 
Sent: 06 May 2024 10:30
To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of 
Portugal

Nuno
You exaggerated by attributing the term “hate Portugal” to Pedro, since nowhere 
in his texts did I find this proof. The Forum is for discussing opinions and 
not for attacking others. Whoever has no arguments offends others. I know some 
old people feel insignificant since the loss of the empire.
The payment of compensation to former colonies is a source of disagreement 
among historians and activists — despite some having already been carried out 
by Portugal. But the return of works of art is less controversial. The return 
of cultural works and objects looted by colonizing countries has been repeated 
over the years in countries such as France, Germany, Switzerland or the 
Netherlands (even the United Kingdom has already begun to return looted 
objects, after removing the idea).
These are the most developed societies, especially France led by Macron.
Regards
Alberto.
- Mensagem de 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net 
mailto:goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>> 
-
Data: Sun, 5 May 2024 19:10:08 +0200
De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net 
mailto:goa-research-net@googlegroups.com>>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of 
Portugal
Para: 
goa-research-net@googlegroups.com

Pedro,

You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable source of 
information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions. We did enough bad 
things throughout our history not to need your fairytales to pass judgement on 
us. When I was teaching at the university, in Lisbon, one of my colleague 
professors was a black Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA and had been 
sent to the São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his experience there and 
he told me he had never been tortured or mistreated, although conditions were 
rough. I have no doubt torture was used under certain circumstances, but people 
who were already convicted of deeds against the security of the state, and were 
already in prison, had no reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The 
idea was to keep them away and prevent them from continuing fighting against 
Portuguese rule. As to PIDE, they organized counter terrorism units made up of 
former guerrilleros in Angola and Mozambique, the so called Flechas. I doubt 
they would have been able to recruit as many guerrillas as they did if they had 
systematically tortured their prisoners. Yes, torture was used but not as 
indiscriminately as you suggest. Which doesn't make PIDE a better organization. 
They were the violent tools of repression and must be condemned by all of us. 
But we have nothing to gain by trying to make them more brutal and murderous 
than they already were. Violence, torture and repression have been the tools of 
many states, some of them supposedly democratic. Like the actions of the UK on 
Northern Ireland against IRA. Or US actions in Iraq. Or French actions in 
Algeria. We are unfortunately a murderous species...

Best regards

Nuno


Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 3:10 PM
From: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net" 

To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" 
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of 
Portugal


Quoting

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Thank you, Selma!

At least you understood what I was saying. I will say it again: colonization was a vile violation of human rights. But not all colonization was equally vile, and at least some Portuguese rulers tried to establish a true relationship between us and the colonized peoples, hoping to build a mixed society with equal rights for all. We apparently were not too successful although I think we came closest in Goa. I spent two years in Angola, as reserve officer, in 1966-1968, and I truly hoped my participation in that war would contribute to Africans being treated as equal with us. Which was helped by the fact that my soldiers were Angolan, almost all of them Black, and that I was fortunate enough not to have killed anyone, in spite of having done my share of operational activity in a war zone. I know I always treated Africans as equals, and most White people in Angola, at that time, did the same. I truly have nothing to be ashamed of.

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 11:52 AM
From: "'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net"
To: "'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net"
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Dear Nuno et al,

By no means do I have the breadth of reading required to comment on Portugal's colonial policy but from the depth of my research involving their governance of Goans in British administered Africa, I can say there was a genuine desire for a collaborative relationship between the subjects and the colonial government and quite profoundly the Goans perceived themselves to be citizens of Portugal rather than subjects by the mid-nineteenth century. So discussing colonialism is a very layered exercise.

I also feel, it is time for us to stop this nonsense of reparations. Not because there has not been grave historical wrong-doing--of course, there has-- but because European countries are no longer a monolithic, hegemonous identity. There is no 'white Europe' that needs to suffer indefinitely from 'white guilt'. The demographic composition of these countries has changed drastically. For instance, if Britain was to pay reparations, whose tax money is going to go towards this payment? Mine? Of course, it will be mine and the millions who had nothing to do with slavery or colonialism, and who exactly will be the beneficiary of this reparation? It is time for all of us to grow up including Marcelo, stop virtue signalling and move on. What we can talk about in a targeted investment plan in Africa which is what is needed, a 21st century Marshall plan.

All best,

Selma

On Monday, 6 May 2024 at 09:57:59 BST, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net wrote:

Dear Sandra,

Thank you so much for your well thought reply to my message. I will definitely try to find and read the two works you mentioned.

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM
From: "sandra lobo"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Hello Nuno,

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread albert . ro


Nuno

You exaggerated by attributing the term “hate Portugal” to Pedro,  
since nowhere in his texts did I find this proof. The Forum is for  
discussing opinions and not for attacking others. Whoever has no  
arguments offends others. I know some old people feel insignificant  
since the loss of the empire.


The payment of compensation to former colonies is a source of  
disagreement among historians and activists — despite some having  
already been carried out by Portugal. But the return of works of art  
is less controversial. The return of cultural works and objects looted  
by colonizing countries has been repeated over the years in countries  
such as France, Germany, Switzerland or the Netherlands (even the  
United Kingdom has already begun to return looted objects, after  
removing the idea).


These are the most developed societies, especially France led by Macron.

Regards

Alberto.

- Mensagem de 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net  
 -


 Data: Sun, 5 May 2024 19:10:08 +0200

 De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net  



 Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the  
president of Portugal


 Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com


Pedro,

 

You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable  
source of information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions.  
We did enough bad things throughout our history not to need your  
fairytales to pass judgement on us. When I was teaching at the  
university, in Lisbon, one of my colleague professors was a black  
Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA and had been sent to the  
São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his experience there and he  
told me he had never been tortured or mistreated, although  
conditions were rough. I have no doubt torture was used under  
certain circumstances, but people who were already convicted of  
deeds against the security of the state, and were already in prison,  
had no reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The idea was  
to keep them away and prevent them from continuing fighting against  
Portuguese rule. As to PIDE, they organized counter terrorism units  
made up of former guerrilleros in Angola and Mozambique, the so  
called Flechas. I doubt they would have been able to recruit as many  
guerrillas as they did if they had systematically tortured their  
prisoners. Yes, torture was used but not as indiscriminately as you  
suggest. Which doesn't make PIDE a better organization. They were  
the violent tools of repression and must be condemned by all of us.  
But we have nothing to gain by trying to make them more brutal and  
murderous than they already were. Violence, torture and repression  
have been the tools of many states, some of them supposedly  
democratic. Like the actions of the UK on Northern Ireland against  
IRA. Or US actions in Iraq. Or French actions in Algeria. We are  
unfortunately a murderous species...


 

Best regards

 

Nuno

 

 

SENT: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 3:10 PM

 FROM: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net"  



 TO: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" 

 SUBJECT: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the  
president of Portugal


 

 

Quoting Hemingway's story about the fisherman and the huge fish that  
were nothing more than bones when they were brought ashore. The big  
fish were the colonies and the fisherman is Salazar. It's not worth  
whitewashing the true story. 


 

The most important thing is that Africa expelled the racists. 

 

We are not talking about the Portuguese people who on April 25, 2024  
took to the streets to express the joy of democracy.


See the video : https://ensina.rtp.pt/artigo/os-carceres-do-imperio/

Although little documented, the history of the activities of the  
Portuguese Portuguese police (PIDE) in the colonies, during the  
Estado Novo, takes us to a world of atrocities committed before, but  
especially after the start of the colonial war. A vast network of  
jails and work camps were merciless prisons for thousands who  
opposed the regime and their representatives were never punished.


In 1961, with the start of the war in Angola, the PIDE  
(International and State Defense Police) created its own  
delegations, sub-delegations, posts, mobile brigades and militias  
overseas. Contrary to what was happening in Portugal, in Africa the  
agents were well regarded and considered as allies by the racist.  
The objective was to persecute the nationalists and, to this end,  
they had a vast system of prisons and work camps, which were nothing  
more than concentration camps.


Tarrafal, on the Cape Verdean island of Santiago, is perhaps the  
best-known prison in the colonies. From 1962 onwards, it opened its  
doors again to house mainly prisoners linked to the struggles for  
self-determination, such as Luandino Vieira or Justino Pinto de  
Andrade.


But the great atrocities of political jailers extended to other  
colonies.

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net

 Dear Nuno et al,
By no means do I have the breadth of reading required to comment on Portugal's 
colonial policy but from the depth of my research involving their governance of 
Goans in British administered Africa, I can say there was a genuine desire for 
a collaborative relationship between the subjects and the colonial government 
and quite profoundly the Goans perceived themselves to be citizens of Portugal 
rather than subjects by the mid-nineteenth century. So discussing colonialism 
is a very layered exercise.
I also feel, it is time for us to stop this nonsense of reparations. Not 
because there has not been grave historical wrong-doing--of course, there has-- 
but because European countries are no longer a monolithic, hegemonous identity. 
There is no 'white Europe' that needs to suffer indefinitely from 'white 
guilt'. The demographic composition of these countries has changed drastically. 
For instance, if Britain was to pay reparations, whose tax money is going to go 
towards this payment? Mine? Of course, it will be mine and the millions who had 
nothing to do with slavery or colonialism, and who exactly will be the 
beneficiary of this reparation? It is time for all of us to grow up including 
Marcelo, stop virtue signalling and move on. What we can talk about in a 
targeted investment plan in Africa which is what is needed, a 21st century 
Marshall plan.
All best,Selma


On Monday, 6 May 2024 at 09:57:59 BST, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via 
Goa-Research-Net  wrote:  
 
 Dear Sandra, Thank you so much for your well thought reply to my message. I 
will definitely try to find and read the two works you mentioned. Best wishes 
Nuno  Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM
From: "sandra lobo" 
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" 
Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president 
of PortugalHello Nuno, I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation 
movement. I was replying to João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the 
colonialists for being uncapable of governing itself and that Portuguese 
colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was not racist and promoted equality 
between peoples. I believe that you share the last opinion, in your evaluation 
of the historical profile of Portuguese colonialism, regarding which you see 
Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral affirmed that if an African could be 
President of the country most probably would have no reasons to want to become 
independent. For me that impossibility translates the basic nature of 
colonialism. Does this mean that we should abdicate from a complexified look at 
colonialism? I believe it should not. I think it is our duty as historians, as 
I believe it is to help the acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help 
the promotion of hospitality and of social justice.  Now, regarding your 
arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain body of principles by 
a state is important and itself carries a transformative potential with 
practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give importance to 
the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political tradition introduced 
by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts tried to solve, the 
tensions between colonial domination and the acknowledgement of universal of 
individual and collective rights of man inherited from the eighteenth century 
by conceptualizing a pluricontinental nation-state, the lasts basically refused 
such inheritance. The question lays on understanding if such contradiction was 
actually fully addressed by the liberals and republicans both constitutionally 
and in practice. I believe it was not - even at the level of principles the 
discussion was never closed and since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered 
a change with structural impact - although it helped local elites to convoke 
such principles and to develop a political consciousness. Among other studies, 
I do vividly counsel the reading of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting 
with Constitucionalismo e Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and 
A Construção jurídica dos territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX 
(2017). Your argument regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as 
a common language is interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that 
are the African postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of 
"tribalism" would take us far... best wishes, Sandra 
 

 

Sandra Ataíde Lobo  

          
Home (gieipc-ip.org)                               
https://praticasdahistoria.pt/
tmn. ++351 930690459
  De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net 

Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37
Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com 
Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president 
of Portugal Sandra, You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do 
Indigenato" and the "Ato Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese

Re: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Dear Sandra,

Thank you so much for your well thought reply to my message. I will definitely try to find and read the two works you mentioned.

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2024 at 9:02 AM
From: "sandra lobo"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Hello Nuno,

best wishes,

Sandra

Sandra Ataíde Lobo

Home (gieipc-ip.org) https://praticasdahistoria.pt/

tmn. ++351 930690459

Sandra,

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM
From: "sandra lobo"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de

RE: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-06 Thread sandra lobo

Hello Nuno,

I was not expressing any opinion on the reparation movement. I was replying to 
João Paulo's opinions that Angola needs the colonialists for being uncapable of 
governing itself and that Portuguese colonialism, even during Estado Novo, was 
not racist and promoted equality between peoples. I believe that you share the 
last opinion, in your evaluation of the historical profile of Portuguese 
colonialism, regarding which you see Estado Novo as a break. Amilcar Cabral 
affirmed that if an African could be President of the country most probably 
would have no reasons to want to become independent. For me that impossibility 
translates the basic nature of colonialism. Does this mean that we should 
abdicate from a complexified look at colonialism? I believe it should not. I 
think it is our duty as historians, as I believe it is to help the 
acknowledgement of the "others" in us and to help the promotion of hospitality 
and of social justice.

Now, regarding your arguments. I do believe that the enunciation of a certain 
body of principles by a state is important and itself carries a transformative 
potential with practical consequences. That is why I think that we need to give 
importance to the rupture regarding the liberal and republican political 
tradition introduced by Estado Novo and the Acto Colonial, as while the firsts 
tried to solve, the tensions between colonial domination and the 
acknowledgement of universal of individual and collective rights of man 
inherited from the eighteenth century by conceptualizing a pluricontinental 
nation-state, the lasts basically refused such inheritance. The question lays 
on understanding if such contradiction was actually fully addressed by the 
liberals and republicans both constitutionally and in practice. I believe it 
was not - even at the level of principles the discussion was never closed and 
since the Berlin Conference its terms suffered a change with structural impact 
- although it helped local elites to convoke such principles and to develop a 
political consciousness. Among other studies, I do vividly counsel the reading 
of Cristina Nogueira da Silva's work, starting with Constitucionalismo e 
Império. A cidadania no Ultramar português (2009) and A Construção jurídica dos 
territórios ultramarinos portugueses no século XIX (2017). Your argument 
regarding the identitarian tool offered by Portuguese as a common language is 
interesting. As you know, who are actually working on that are the African 
postcolonial countries for a set of reasons. The discussion of "tribalism" 
would take us far...

best wishes,

Sandra




Sandra Ataíde Lobo

[cid:0089eddc-5c50-420d-be47-6a6eadf3fb30][cid:4ccdb18f-b890-41d8-9639-1aea6ff7d885]

[cid:62b3a0ae-7084-4514-8349-10fd25e35285]  
[cid:f50ac323-91ec-4ac0-bb23-efab539fda50]

Home (gieipc-ip.org)  
https://praticasdahistoria.pt/

tmn. ++351 930690459



De: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net 

Enviado: 5 de maio de 2024 09:37
Para: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com 
Assunto: Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president 
of Portugal

Sandra,

You make some valid points, but the "Estatuto do Indigenato" and the "Ato 
Colonial" were completely at odds with the Portuguese overseas traditions. In 
the 19th century the so called "colonies" were always referred to as 
"Províncias Ultramarinas", which elected members to Parliament in Lisbon, and 
the minister in charge of them was always called "Secretário da Marinha e 
Ultramar", not "colonies". And the Ato Colonial, as well as the Estatuto do 
Indigenato, were abolished in 1961 because they did not fit our traditional 
relationship with the overseas. Yes, we colaborated with the slave trade and 
forced labour was not uncommon in the African territories, but our influence in 
those territories was not all negative. Speaking only of Angola - where I lived 
for three years - I have no doubt that the strong feeling of national identity, 
the lack of tribal strife, the benefits of a common language, the strong 
economy, were very much due to the way we ruled Angola for over 400 years. Yes, 
colonization, any colonization, is a vile violation of people's rights, and we 
should not try to ever justify it. But, in the end, I believe we did more good 
than evil. And while the evil part remains as part of history, the good things 
are helping to build solid, prosperous countries. No reparations are needed, 
only the recognition of the evil things we were responsible for, which we do. 
Marcelo should have kept his mouth shut...

Best wishes

Nuno


Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM
From: "sandra lobo" 
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com" 
Subject: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of 
Portugal
Hello João Paulo,

I totally agree with you. In 1975, 85% of the population in Angola did not face 
the

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-05 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Pedro,

You hate too much Portugal and the Portuguese to be a reliable source of information or a fair analyst of the Portuguese actions. We did enough bad things throughout our history not to need your fairytales to pass judgement on us. When I was teaching at the university, in Lisbon, one of my colleague professors was a black Angolan who had been a top cadre of UNITA and had been sent to the São Nicolau camp. I once asked him about his experience there and he told me he had never been tortured or mistreated, although conditions were rough. I have no doubt torture was used under certain circumstances, but people who were already convicted of deeds against the security of the state, and were already in prison, had no reason to be further interrogated and tortured. The idea was to keep them away and prevent them from continuing fighting against Portuguese rule. As to PIDE, they organized counter terrorism units made up of former guerrilleros in Angola and Mozambique, the so called Flechas. I doubt they would have been able to recruit as many guerrillas as they did if they had systematically tortured their prisoners. Yes, torture was used but not as indiscriminately as you suggest. Which doesn't make PIDE a better organization. They were the violent tools of repression and must be condemned by all of us. But we have nothing to gain by trying to make them more brutal and murderous than they already were. Violence, torture and repression have been the tools of many states, some of them supposedly democratic. Like the actions of the UK on Northern Ireland against IRA. Or US actions in Iraq. Or French actions in Algeria. We are unfortunately a murderous species...

Best regards

Nuno

Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 3:10 PM
From: "'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Quoting Hemingway's story about the fisherman and the huge fish that were nothing more than bones when they were brought ashore. The big fish were the colonies and the fisherman is Salazar. It's not worth whitewashing the true story.

The most important thing is that Africa expelled the racists.

We are not talking about the Portuguese people who on April 25, 2024 took to the streets to express the joy of democracy.

See the video : https://ensina.rtp.pt/artigo/os-carceres-do-imperio/

Although little documented, the history of the activities of the Portuguese Portuguese police (PIDE) in the colonies, during the Estado Novo, takes us to a world of atrocities committed before, but especially after the start of the colonial war. A vast network of jails and work camps were merciless prisons for thousands who opposed the regime and their representatives were never punished.

In 1961, with the start of the war in Angola, the PIDE (International and State Defense Police) created its own delegations, sub-delegations, posts, mobile brigades and militias overseas. Contrary to what was happening in Portugal, in Africa the agents were well regarded and considered as allies by the racist. The objective was to persecute the nationalists and, to this end, they had a vast system of prisons and work camps, which were nothing more than concentration camps.

Tarrafal, on the Cape Verdean island of Santiago, is perhaps the best-known prison in the colonies. From 1962 onwards, it opened its doors again to house mainly prisoners linked to the struggles for self-determination, such as Luandino Vieira or Justino Pinto de Andrade.

But the great atrocities of political jailers extended to other colonies. Cases such as the Machava prison, in the Mozambican capital, which became known as the most sinister of overseas prisons, where in the PIDE section, torture was everyday life. 12 men were kept in an individual cell. He died from asphyxiation. The barbarity in prisons was rampant and the killing would go unnoticed, in Portugal, in the pages of post-revolution justice.

In addition to the jails, the political police created recovery centers. Case of São Nicolau, in Angola, where nationalist guerrillas were taken, mixed with populations displaced by the conflict. In these camps there were prisons, work zones and even satellite villages. The conditions were inhumane: cells measuring 20 by 40 meters, with 200 people, sexual rape, various types of torture, burial of people alive, crucifixions, shootings.

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:39:02 AM GMT+1, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net wrote:

Alberto,

I suppose we all agree that colonization is a vile violation of the rights of the colonized peoples. But it weren't "the heavy losses inflicted by FRELIMO and the MPLA on Portuguese colonial troops in Mozambique and the North and East of Angola, which precipitated the events that led to the uprising and military coup of April 25, 1974 in Portugal." In 1973 the independence forces in

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-05 Thread 'Pedro Mascarenhas' via Goa-Research-Net

 
Quoting Hemingway's story about the fisherman and the hugefish that were 
nothing more than bones when they were brought ashore. The bigfish were the 
colonies and the fisherman is Salazar. It's not worth whitewashingthe true 
story. 
The mostimportant thing is that Africa expelled the racists. 
We are not talking about the Portuguesepeople who on April 25, 2024 took to the 
streets to express the joy ofdemocracy.
See the video : https://ensina.rtp.pt/artigo/os-carceres-do-imperio/

Although little documented, the history of the activities ofthe Portuguese 
Portuguese police (PIDE) in the colonies, during the EstadoNovo, takes us to a 
world of atrocities committed before, but especially afterthe start of the 
colonial war. A vast network of jails and work camps weremerciless prisons for 
thousands who opposed the regime and theirrepresentatives were never punished.

In 1961, with the start of the war in Angola, the PIDE(International and State 
Defense Police) created its own delegations,sub-delegations, posts, mobile 
brigades and militias overseas. Contrary to whatwas happening in Portugal, in 
Africa the agents were well regarded andconsidered as allies by the racist. The 
objective was to persecutethe nationalists and, to this end, they had a vast 
system of prisons and workcamps, which were nothing more than concentration 
camps.

Tarrafal, on the Cape Verdean island of Santiago, is perhapsthe best-known 
prison in the colonies. From 1962 onwards, it opened its doorsagain to house 
mainly prisoners linked to the struggles for self-determination,such as 
Luandino Vieira or Justino Pinto de Andrade. 

But the great atrocities of political jailers extended toother colonies. Cases 
such as the Machava prison, in the Mozambican capital,which became known as the 
most sinister of overseas prisons, where in the PIDEsection, torture was 
everyday life. 12 men were kept in an individual cell. Hedied from 
asphyxiation. The barbarity in prisons was rampant and the killingwould go 
unnoticed, in Portugal, in the pages of post-revolution justice. 

In addition to the jails, the political police createdrecovery centers. Case of 
São Nicolau, in Angola, where nationalist guerrillaswere taken, mixed with 
populations displaced by the conflict. In these campsthere were prisons, work 
zones and even satellite villages. The conditions wereinhumane: cells measuring 
20 by 40 meters, with 200 people, sexual rape,various types of torture, burial 
of people alive, crucifixions, shootings.

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:39:02 AM GMT+1, 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via 
Goa-Research-Net  wrote:  
 
 Alberto, I suppose we all agree that colonization is a vile violation of the 
rights of the colonized peoples. But it weren't "the heavy losses inflicted by 
FRELIMO and the MPLA on Portuguese colonial troops in Mozambique and the North 
and East of Angola, which precipitated the events that led to the uprising and 
military coup of April 25, 1974 in Portugal." In 1973 the independence forces 
in Angola were completely defeated and in Mozambique they were on the way to be 
neutralized. Only the situation in Guinea Bissau was problematic, and the 1974 
uprising was exclusively due to Spinola and the officers in Guinea Bissau 
wanting to force the Lisbon goverment to accept talking to PAIGC. And, by the 
way, I was in June 1973 in Bissau talking to those officers, and while they 
openly threatened to take action in Lisbon, once back in Portugal, not one of 
them ever mentioned "liberdade" and "democracia" as justifications for the 
promised uprising. Those two concepts were quite foreign to professional 
officers educated and trained at the Estado Novo military academies. Regards 
Nuno  Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2024 at 2:42 PM
From: albert...@sapo.pt
To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of 
Portugal
 
Paulo. Please do not distort the true history of colonization.
 
Read, here, some excerpts from the president of Angola in Lisbon. Jornal de 
Angola.
 
He said - Allow me to begin by thanking President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa for 
the kind invitation extended to us to participate in the celebrations of the 
Fiftieth Anniversary of April 25, 1974.
 
While the Portuguese people fought against fascism and the Salazar dictatorship 
since 1932, we, the African people colonized by Portugal, HAD BEEN FIGHTING 
SINCE THE 15TH CENTURY AGAINST PORTUGUESE COLONIZATION AND ITS CONSEQUENCES 
SUCH AS SLAVERY AND THE PLUNDERING OF OUR WEALTH.  WE FOUGHT FOR AN END TO THE 
ABUSES, CRIMES AND VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTED BY THE COLONIALIST 
REGIME AGAINST OUR PEOPLE FOR CENTURIES. WE FOUGHT FOR OUR DIGNITY AS HUMAN 
BEINGS, WHO MUST HAVE THE SAME RIGHT TO FREEDOM, THE RIGHT TO BE THE MASTERS OF 
OUR OWN DESTINY.
 
 
 
The armed struggles for our Independence in Guinea Bissau, Angola and 
Mozambique have reached such an advanced stage, especially after the failure of

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-05 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Alberto,

 

I suppose we all agree that colonization is a vile violation of the rights of the colonized peoples. But it weren't "the heavy losses inflicted by FRELIMO and the MPLA on Portuguese colonial troops in Mozambique and the North and East of Angola, which precipitated the events that led to the uprising and military coup of April 25, 1974 in Portugal." In 1973 the independence forces in Angola were completely defeated and in Mozambique they were on the way to be neutralized. Only the situation in Guinea Bissau was problematic, and the 1974 uprising was exclusively due to Spinola and the officers in Guinea Bissau wanting to force the Lisbon goverment to accept talking to PAIGC. And, by the way, I was in June 1973 in Bissau talking to those officers, and while they openly threatened to take action in Lisbon, once back in Portugal, not one of them ever mentioned "liberdade" and "democracia" as justifications for the promised uprising. Those two concepts were quite foreign to professional officers educated and trained at the Estado Novo military academies.

 

Regards

 

Nuno

 
 

Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2024 at 2:42 PM
From: albert...@sapo.pt
To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal



 

Paulo. Please do not distort the true history of colonization.

 

Read, here, some excerpts from the president of Angola in Lisbon. Jornal de Angola.

 

He said - Allow me to begin by thanking President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa for the kind invitation extended to us to participate in the celebrations of the Fiftieth Anniversary of April 25, 1974.

 

While the Portuguese people fought against fascism and the Salazar dictatorship since 1932, we, the African people colonized by Portugal, HAD BEEN FIGHTING SINCE THE 15TH CENTURY AGAINST PORTUGUESE COLONIZATION AND ITS CONSEQUENCES SUCH AS SLAVERY AND THE PLUNDERING OF OUR WEALTH.  

WE FOUGHT FOR AN END TO THE ABUSES, CRIMES AND VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTED BY THE COLONIALIST REGIME AGAINST OUR PEOPLE FOR CENTURIES. WE FOUGHT FOR OUR DIGNITY AS HUMAN BEINGS, WHO MUST HAVE THE SAME RIGHT TO FREEDOM, THE RIGHT TO BE THE MASTERS OF OUR OWN DESTINY.

 

 

 

The armed struggles for our Independence in Guinea Bissau, Angola and Mozambique have reached such an advanced stage, especially after the failure of the Mar Verde operation, the assassination of Amílcar Cabral and the proclamation of Independence by the PAIGC in the hills of Madina de Boé in 1973 in Guinea Bissau, the fiasco of the Nó Górdio operation and  

Regards

Alberto 

 

 

 







I think I will agree with Nuno.

Portugal enriched itself with spices early in time more than it did in more recent times. It benefited mostly due to trade. It did not rob Goa and its people of anything like others did. And it developed the place quite well then.

The British pillaged more stuff from India like gold, diamonds and other precious stones, tea, etc.

The Spanish were terrible, it was mostly gold and silver from their South American possessions that impoverished these nations.

The French were worse, besides all the above, they have signed contracts with places like Haiti to have the colonies pay for damages to the slave owning colonisers! They are still paying a 1825 debt today, no wonder they are bankrupt.

Being born in Angola and grown up in Goa too, life in Portuguese colonies was different from those of other European powers then. In Angola were we lived it was paradise and the black people had also equal rights and quality of life. No discrimination like the British did in India and the French and Spanish did elsewhere.

One of the major contributions to Goa, the amazing drainage system, was destroyed by these BJP corrupt politicians who invent new ways to swindle the population.

India needs to do reparations to Goa for the damage it is doing to the state and for the money it is robbing its people.

Modern colonisers.

JP







From: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net 
Sent: 26 April 2024 07:56
To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

 




Yes, throughout the centuries Portugal comitted crimes. Just like every other country on Earth. But we also helped to build. Without Portugal there would be no Goan State in India, and Goans would be a lot different, not necessarily better. Without Portugal there wouldn't be a great nation such as Brazil. There wouldn't be a great Angolan state, with a strong sense of identity, with a prosperous economy built on much of what Portugal built over four and a half centuries. There wouldn't have been a tolerant Timorese nation, so different from Indonesia. There wouldn't have been a marvellously mixed nation such a Cape Verde, where the colour of skin is completely irrelevant. We took a lot away from those countries, but I believe we gave back a lot more than we took. No reparations are

Re: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-05 Thread 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net

Sandra,

Best wishes

Nuno

Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2024 at 8:44 AM
From: "sandra lobo"
To: "goa-research-net@googlegroups.com"
Subject: RE: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Hello João Paulo,

I totally agree with you. In 1975, 85% of the population in Angola did not face the burden of knowing to read and write and enjoyed the benefit of until 1974 of being protected from the of terrorists at the service of unsound ambitions of those who are now colonizing them. Until 1961, the Estado Novo cared so much for their development that even offered them a special statute, that Angolans still lament to have fallen, the famous "Estatuto do Indigenato" applicable to the black population that was still not able to understand the benefits of Portuguese civilizational mission due to its backwardness. The protection they enjoyed, according to the 1954 statute, forced by the international devious pressure, still included the salvation of the mission to educating the natives to the value of work, the protection of their unpreparenees to take decisions on their own life like have the State regulating the right to change residency, the right to have prison sentences transformed in forced labor, to compulsory serve at the army to take deviant fellows back to the right track, all that viewing the ultimate aim in the mind of any Angolan, that of becoming a citizen with the privilege of having a special ID citizens card where his/her conditions to hold it where especified. They indeed, need us Portuguese to go back there.

Best wishes,

Sandra

De: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com em nome de Joao Paulo Cota
Enviado: 4 de maio de 2024 23:55
Para: albert...@sapo.pt ; goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Dear Alberto,

I am aware of the struggles of the locals with the Portuguese colonial government.

However I was a kid then and I stand by my words as that was what I had experienced.

There was equality in school where I studied (two of my best mates was a white and a black) and we were three always inseparable.

At work, my father did have friends of both colours and noticed nothing wrong with race.

My mother had house staff, but we had treated them as family.

The sad thing about Angola was not about Portuguese rule but about the 30 year civil war that commenced soon after the Portuguese left the place.

That showed how pathetic and stupid Angolan natives are, they have independence and then they go all out to kill each other - instead of enjoying freedom.

And then elect rulers who loot the country in every conceivable way, father and daughter.

Fast forward 2024, Angolans are leaving and going to Portugal.

Why, missing the colonialists?

Or perhaps being incompetent and unable to govern themselves?

I am not trying to change any history. Angola's story is very sad and hurts me deeply as Angolan/Portuguese/Goan.

It should had been a great nation today, but people there do not have the capability to govern themselves.

They are now under economic colonialists China rule and nobody seems to be making noise about it.

Sorry to say but you need the colonialists back to take care of the country, it has gone to the dogs, it was much better pre-1975

Regards,

Joao Paulo

From: albert...@sapo.pt
Sent: 04 May 2024 13:42
To: goa-research-net@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

Re: [GRN] Antonio Costa and Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, the president of Portugal

2024-05-05 Thread John de Figueiredo

Have been accompanying this conversation with interest. It is often recalled how some Goans participated in the African struggle against Portuguese colonialism. But for well over a century, many Goans fought with the Portuguese against African rebellions. This was particularly true with physicians who belonged to the Portuguese Overseas Public Health Service, such as Albino Pascoal da Rocha and many others. This happened to such an extent that the great Portuguese historian Antônio da Silva Rego stated in 1956: “Se Moçambique ainda é Português, a Goa Portuguesa o deve” (“If Mozambique is still Portuguese, it owes it to Portuguese Goa”).Reference: A. da Silva Rego, Raízes de Goa, Lisboa: Paulino Ferreira e Filhos, 1956.John M. de Figueiredo Sent from my iPhoneOn May 5, 2024, at 3:44 AM, sandra lobo wrote:

Hello João Paulo,

I totally agree with you. In 1975, 85% of the population in Angola did not face the burden of knowing to read and write and enjoyed the benefit of until 1974 of being protected from the of terrorists at the service of unsound ambitions of those who are now
colonizing them. Until 1961, the Estado Novo cared so much for their development that even offered them a special statute, that Angolans still lament to have fallen, the famous "Estatuto do Indigenato" applicable to the black population that was still not
able to understand the benefits of Portuguese civilizational mission due to its backwardness. The protection they enjoyed, according to the 1954 statute, forced by the international devious pressure, still included the salvation of the mission to educating
the natives to the value of work, the protection of their unpreparenees to take decisions on their own life like have the State regulating the right to change residency, the right to have prison sentences transformed in forced labor, to compulsory serve at
the army to take deviant fellows back to the right track, all that viewing the ultimate aim in the mind of any Angolan, that of becoming a citizen with the privilege of having a special ID citizens card where his/her conditions to hold it where especified.
They indeed, need us Portuguese to go back there.