Re: [Goanet] Lourdes miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jose wrote: >> In my clinical experience (of some years now) there have been some unexpected cures/recoveries. They have been amazing and wonderful occurrences inexplicable by our current knowledge. Until I find >scientific explanations for the cures, I will call them miracles. Josebab, please note that you say "until I find scientific explanations". --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What I would like to know is, are there any events, either positive or negative, that are known to have occurred for which there is no plausible scientific explanation. > There are many natural phenomena for which the complete scientific > explanation is yet to be discovered, for example the phenomenon of > consciousness or the phenomenon of sleep. I am thankful for the fact > that they are unexplained, because otherwise I would be out of a job. > When a scientist encounters an unexplained observation, he/she applies > the method of science, and conducts painstaking research to find a > natural explanation for it. ***You are speaking of phenomena in general, not of 'extraordinary' cases, which will defy scientific explanations. When one says "miracles", one can mean also healings that are unexplained now, but could be or not explained later on. These are not miracles in the strict sense. There are strict criteria for such miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes miracles
From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Using a selectively mutilated quote of what I (jc) had written i.e. ***Sorry, Dr.Jose Colaço, for keeping your quote shortened. This happened by mistake (not "selectively mutilated")--the first words were deleted by mistake and I added "check if:". Nothing was distorted. The logical meaning is the same. I understand it well. I gave you the answer not hastily, but according to the understanding that I have of the problem. For us who know so many languages, English is the easiest language... (Let me add here that Dr.JC cannot reply without insulting...) You want me to have all these requirements, namely to know medicine in all its branches, to review all the details of all the cases and to say that there is no other explanation for the cures? Dr.Santosh asked for a double-blind "control" (read below), admitting himself that this is difficult for such rare cases. The proposed method itself excludes all miracles. I think that these cases are rare and cannot have such a control, because they are too evident for the medical community. My answer is the same: The medical Bureau has verified all these criteria. I leaned on the expertise of the Medical Bureau and International Medical Panel, and our common sense and my own knowledge of medicine and data available. Even if an authority in medical field asserts it, Dr.Santosh will never accept that the incurable diseases were cured in those particular cases (which theologically means "miracles"). There will not be an authority in the world on all the branches of medicine, nor, as a consequence, such a person as to comprehend and judge all these cases. Dr.Santosh himself will not be able to do that. Nobody is bound to accept miracles--they are not magical feats, but signs of God's love--, nor am I bound to accept the "scientific explanations" given by Dr.Santosh. For me, these are miracles according to our prudential judgement. We can speak of them privately and in "public domain". We call them miracles, precisely because they do not have a scientific explanation, and satisfy the required criteria. The Church accepts them officially as "miracles". Dr.Santosh does not accept God, therefore he cannot accept miracles, nor can he explain reasonably these 'miraculous' phenomena... Regards. Fr.Ivo (*This is what Dr.JC had written:) ( In conclusion, I'd say this: The avenue open to anyone who wishes to counteract Santosh's position is the following: Advise us that he/she)(*this was deleted by mistake) (Chech if: (*This was added by me) a: has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occured b: has personally reviwed all the original details of the case. c: is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'. About the method Dr.Santosh wrote on August 10: "Simply put, any scientific procedure requires that properly blinded and objective researchers obtain quantitative data about the probability of occurrence of the phenomenon under observation in the special condition under study, and then compare this probability with that of its occurrence in a control (properly matched) group of people under appropriately controlled conditions.*(These are his words):Since the so-called miracles are by definition rare events, this is a monumental task. ...It should be obvious to those of you who have followed the logic here that if it turns out that two or more individuals from this latter group had also recovered spontaneously from the disease, then no particular benefit from the pilgrimage would be deemed to have occurred. Well, the actual situation is even more complicated than what I have just described, as those with some statistics background would realize. However, the impossibility of performing the above simplified, yet massive, project to scientifically demonstrate that anything extraordinary has occurred, should be fairly plain to most people".
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
Roland said: I then went on to explain what faith meant to those of us who have it. Reply: What are you ON about? We all have faith in something or another. I do have 'faith' that Obama will become the President of USA. But I do not have faith that I will go to hell of burning fire after death, I'm well passed that. I do not have to have faith that God exists. People like you fear God, God should not be feared is my policy, and this is precisely why I do not believe that God exists. IF God does exists, it is a female. So, Roland you should have faith in a Female God. A Female God that favours the wasp which lays its eggs in another insects' body which then becomes paralysed and becomes a meal for the wasps' young when hatched. Amen. ED. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Fr. Ivo C da Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe?
***1.Not being a scientist by profession, I would like to answer your
question as one can commonly understand "chaos" in the common language. I
think that you are using it in its common acceptance: There is constancy in
the physical laws and in the running of the Universe, not chaos and
disorder.
Why? The laws come from its Creator, from God. They are imprinted in the
nature. The scientist is trying to unravel them.
St.Augustine would call it a "miracle", in its common acceptance of
'wonderment', which is the origin of philosophical thought
(miracle from the Latin word 'miraculum', from the verb 'mirari', 'to
admire, to wonder, to be amazed at'). Bible speaks of original 'chaos'
(in hebrew, 'tohu-wa-bohu'), from which
we have a beautifully adorned world, 'cosmos' (cf.Gn 1:1-3),
with its interesting laws, investigated by the scientists.
***2.Science speaks of "Chaos Theory". Being a lover of Science,
I learn that "Chaos Theory" is defined as the study of complex, non-linear
dynamic systems. It is the study of forever changing complex systems based
on mathematical concepts of recursion. This theory finds 'chaotic',
apparently disordered systems, but discovers underlying patterns and order
in apparently random data. Edward Lorenz grappled with the problem of
weather unpredictability.
He spoke of the "butterfly effect", in his paper
given in 1972 to the American Association for the Advancement of Science in
Washington, D.C., entitled "Predictability: Does
the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas?"). The
amount of difference in the starting points of the two curves is so
small that it is comparable to a butterfly flapping its wings. It is also
called "sensitivity to small changes in their initial conditions". The
flapping wing represents a "small change in the initial condition of the
system", which
causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena. From this idea,
Lorenz stated that it is impossible to predict the weather accurately.
Mathematicians speak today of "fractal funtions" and "self-similarity", with
the new formulae, "Lorenz Attractor" (Edward Lorenz), "Mandelbrot set"
(Benoit Mandelbrot), "bifurcations ratio of convergence or Feigenbaum
constants" in turbulence of liquids (Mitchell Jay Feigenbaum), "dissipative
structures" (Ilya Prigogine), "Poincare conjecture" and "Three-body Problem"
(Jules Henri Poincare, who laid the foundation of the Chaos Theory).
Fractal functions are also found in blood vessels, heart beats, cells of the
human body, effects of turbulence in fluids, the branches of a tree, the
internal structure of the lungs, graphs of stock market data, and many other
real-world systems. Chaos even has applications "outside of science", in
"Computer art" and music. Using the "Lorenz attractor", "variations of
musical themes" have been created ("Bach to Chaos: Chaotic Variations on a
Classical Theme", Science News, Dec. 24, 1994).
It is an 'apparent lack of order in a system that nevertheless obeys
particular laws or rules'.
Together with Relativity and Quantum Physics, this is a revolution amidst
'Cartesian universe'
and Newtonian deterministic mechanics.
The 'two main components of chaos theory' are the ideas that "systems -no
matter how complex they may be - rely upon an underlying
order", and that "very simple or small systems and events can cause very
complex behaviours or events". The movie Jurassic Park shows that chaos
theory can profoundly affect our thinking about the world. It is useful as a
tool with which to interpret scientific data in new ways.
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "edward desilva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So, you have not heard of unexplained miracles happening to people of other religion, including atheists? ***Miracle is a theological term used to "extraordinary, unexplained events" which we attribute to God's providential Love. Only God can work miracles. If there are hapenning to people of other faiths, what is the problem? There are special events and healings, which may not all be "miraculous", but are signs of God's love. I have not heard so far about miracles among the atheists. Do they accept that something may come as a sign of God's power? They do not accept God (even though there are several shades of atheism). But I have heard and read that the atheists said: "Thank God!" or "Now I know there is really a God!" ...Jesus even advised his disciples NOT to go to India, saying they have their own belief, (refer to King James version of the bible - new testament). ***This is a novelty for me, a veritable 'gem'. Where do you find it? Are you sure that you are not mis-interpreting the biblical text? According to Hinduism there is a power that helps us all the time...this source is called 'Ishta Devta' ...with this power behind us we do not need miracles, if one believes in this source and asks for help from their personal Ishta Devta, catastrophes are avoided - thus getting rid of our need for miracles. ***We do believe in God's power. But unfortunately not always catastrophes are avoided... It is a 'miracle' to face them. This Ishta Devta does not have the power to give you an extra limb, or give you all the gold in the world, but to help and to make our life bearable - IF ONLY WE WOULD REALISE. ***I also do not believe in miracles of "extra limb", as Anatole France would say, nor in having "all the gold in the world", but in quality of life and love. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Cip Fernandes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Rev. Fr. Ivo C. da Souza, How can you convince a colour blind person that colours exist? ***I do agree with you. I had a lot of discussions with people of other faiths ( or no-faith) and denominations. Sometimes it is quite enriching, when there is openness. When it is already closed mind to the "supernatural", even scientific evidence will not convince. Intellectual probity is necessary. Scientific myopia will close the eyes and not allow to see the colours because the person is totally blind... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes miracles
Using a selectively mutilated quote of what I (jc) had written i.e. [Check a: If s/he has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occurred. b: S/he has personally reviewed all the original details of the case. c: S/he is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'.] Fr Ivo said: JC has not paid attention to all these three points presented in the postings. All these three conditions have been fulfilled by the Medical Bureau of Lourdes. Dear Fr. Ivo, Please do not miraculously or otherwise, change my wine into water or my words into 'almost my words'. I had suggested that the "criteria" be fulfilled by anyone who wishes to counteract Santosh's position. The Medical Bureau of Lourdes has not counteracted Santosh's position. You have. It is therefore YOUR responsibility to fulfill those conditions. I understand that English is indeed a difficult language. Please take your time before responding. And IF you plan to respond, please do not respond to a point which has not been made. Only politicians are 'allowed' to do that. sincerely jc For Information: This is what jc had written: In conclusion, I'd say this: The avenue open to anyone who wishes to counteract Santosh's position is the following: Advise us that he/she a: has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occured b: has personally reviwed all the original details of the case. c: is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'.
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Vidyadhar Gadgil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Fr. Ivo C da Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Why all this heated debate about 'miracles'? What are they worth anyway? ***People are running for healings and miracles precisely because they touch their daily lives. They are in need, "they are worth anyway"... There's this famous story about the Buddha. He watched a saintly chappie walk across the river and then commented, "I can cross that river by paying a penny for the ferry." ***Life is not so easy. We have to pay for it. Suffering has its redemptive value. That's about the value of most 'miracles', they don't help anybody in particular, ***People are going for healings and miracles, when they are in despair... are believed in only by those predisposed to belief ***Belief system is a part and parcel of our human existence, we cannot do without belief. Even the rationalists and scientists do need a belief system. We cannot survive without belief. We who believe in miracles are not gullible, credulous people... Faith in God gives us certainty... and distract attention from more important matters in both spiritual and temporal realms. ***Precisely, extraordinary events (inner healing and miracles) are sought for the problems "in both spiritual and temporal realms"... They do not come always to our rescue. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, > has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of >the > Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano. > Any objective lay person who has watched a TV show or a movie involving a simple Forensic investigation would realize that the above conclusion is bogus. Even if one believes that some human flesh and blood were detected, the investigator would have to prove: a) that they are from the 8th century, b) that they indeed miraculously emerged from inanimate material, and c) that they belonged to the right person. If you read the original 1971 paper, as I have done, you will find out that none of these things were ever done. In fact, the tests used to detect blood would today be deemed unreliable. Even so, the so-called blood samples failed two of those tests, and the amount of calcium measured in those samples was found to be 28 times higher than its concentration in normal human blood under similar conditions. I have already explained the fallacy regarding type AB blood, and the well-known repeated scientific demonstrations that the Shroud of Turin is a 13th century artifact. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Roland Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For a scientist Santosh, you have written a particularly unscientific reply. In what was a Faith thread, all I said was that faith was worn as a badge of learning in your case and as a social statement badge by Kevin. I then went on to explain what faith meant to those of us who have it. Why should we let you atheists go unchallenged in debate? We have the right to express our viewpoint also. ***You are right, Roland. While deepening the issues, I am also learning from the so-called atheists and agnostics. Let them know also why we believe without being gullible... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "ralph rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Last time I heard Goanet was a forum for discussing social issues of concern to Goans and not debating matters of faith. ***Which are social issues of concern to Goans? We are hearing a lot about them. We can hear them being debated in the Legislative Assembly in these days by our political benefactors. Some of them are already out of our reach. They have already been decided by Delhi authorities, whether they are beneficial to us or not. "Matters of faith": are they not social issues? It's rightly said - to those who believe no proof is necessary. To those who cannot, will not, or do not (the doubting Thomases) no proof is sufficient. ***Are "doubting Thomases" examining the evidence? What is "proof" for them, when science itself cannot explain the miraculous phenomena? Should "doubting Thomases" manipulate and deny the facts? The doubting Thomas accepted the apparition of the Risen Lord and exclaimed: "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Should scientific jargon be imposed on those who accept miracles and state that there is no contradiction between Science and Religion? Should we follow "dogmatism of science"? >>Fr. Ivo should stop trying to defend his faith. It merely attracts the >>ire of the detractors. ***Is this the freedom of expression in our democratic country and Forum, when 'those without faith' (or rather agnostics) can "detract" those who have Faith with reasons for it? Are not the agnostics "attracting the ire" of the believers? Is it not their right to defend their Faith? People with Faith (some of them 'in cloth') are working for the solution of problems of India with their social commitment and heroic dedication. These are "miracles" of Faith and Love... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I do understand that there is a "scientific committee" and a process for these miracles - BUT if any process is going to be accepted, the process has to be open and transparent. I suggest that IF we really want to investigate ANY matter - we should invite inspection from the 'skeptical' side. ***The Medical Bureau examines the evidence scientifically and consults also the International Medical Panel, which consists of scientists of all beliefs and 'no-beliefs' and 'skeptics'. I must say that I am amazed by the writings of Fr. Ivo. Is that sort of stuff helping or not-helping the faith I have that the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Christ - the serious failings of the human faces of the Church notwithstanding? ***Are not miracles a part and parcel of the teaching of the Church and of the Gospels? Jesus worked miracles, as the Gospels attest. The Church has defined the possibility of miracles. Our Faith is not based on miracles, but it is confirmed by them. It is historical and rooted in the Incarnation of the Word. My contention is that miracles do not contradict Science. They go beyond the natural phenomena, they cannot be explained scientifically. They are explained as intervention of God's power. We Christians have no problem to accept them. Should we not explain it to the agnostics when opportunity is given to us? If so, why bombard me and the rest of us with junk? ***We are used to be bombarded with "junk" by most Goanetters in this Forum, including Dr.J.Colaço (with mutual insults). We bear up with them, let him and others bear up with me... These matters are of concern for us all. Check a: If s/he has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occurred. b: S/he has personally reviewed all the original details of the case. c: S/he is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'. ***Dr.JC has not paid attention to all these three points presented in the postings. All these three conditions have been fulfilled by the Medical Bureau of Lourdes. Some of the Points made by Santosh Helekar > 1. The claims that any of these "miracles" were investigated by following proper scientific procedures are false. ***These procedures have been used. 2. I want to demonstrate that those who claim scientific legitimacy for their belief in the authenticity of these "miracles" are being misled by bogus pronouncements in propaganda publications and on the internet because they refuse to or are not able to critically evaluate these pronouncements. ***If definite criteria to judge them are fulfilled, then they are authentic. We do not accept "bogus" anecdotal tales. Historical criterion is important--what has happened and how. 3. In the case of the Korean "miracle", the Church authorities themselves have rejected it as fraudulent, and warned against its propagation among their followers. ***There is a cocktail of "phenomena" there in Naju, South Korea. Discipline had to be maintained. The Archbishop has given his verdict. His verdict does not rule out Eucharistic miracles, as attested by the witnesses, including Bishops and priests who saw it. My point is that there are Eucharistic miracles. About his assertion that it is against the teaching of the Church, I agree to disagree: the Church approves of Eucharistic miracles. I have given two examples: one at Naju and one at Lanciano. At Lanciano scientific investigation by Dr.Odoardo Linoli has confirmed it: the white Host was turned into Flesh and Blood. Consulted by ZENIT, Dr.Linoli explained that "as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue." In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that "the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions." It is not "fraudulent", it is preserved at Lanciano till today. My contention that it is a miracle stands. This should not be "junk" for you. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think that Fr.Ivo and others would do well to heed the following excerpts from the authoritative 1998 decree of the concerned Archbishop regarding the fraudulent miracles of this mystic called Julia Kim: ***I have quoted Roman Danylak, titular bishop of Nyssa, Apostolic Administrator, Eparchy of Toronto, Canada, who witnessed the Eucharistic miracle. Should we not give credit to him? The Archbishop of Kwangju has given his version: "1.2. The phenomenon alleged as a miracle of the Eucharist fallen from heaven is contradictory to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that only through the priest's consecration does the sacrament of the Eucharist begin to exist (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1411: DS. 902) even though the priest is in grave sin, because when all the sacraments are justly celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church(ex opere operato), Christ and His holy Spirit operate in them (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1128: DS. 793-794). ***I did not refer to "hosts" or "Eucharist fallen from heaven". The phenomenon itself is doubtful. It is to be further investigated. That is the task of the Archbishop of Kwangju, his scientists and theologians. Furthermore, the alleged phenomenon that as soon as Mrs. Julia Youn received the Eucharist, it was changed into a lump of bloody flesh in her mouth is also contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that even after the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ with the formula of priests' consecration, the species of bread and wine remain (cf. Pope Paul Ⅵ's Mysterium Fidei: DS. 782, 802, 1321, 1640-1642, 1652)..." ***The Archbishop of Kwangju has authority in his Archdiocese and is to be respected there. But I would disagree with him when he says that the consecrated bread and wine cannot miraculously be transformed into the body and blood of Christ as a "lump of bloody flesh". The species of bread and wine remain on the altar. Faith discovers for us the body and blood of Christ through transubstantiation. Cannot there be Eucharistic miracle? There have been several Eucharistic miracles. They confirm our faith in the Eucharist as attested by the New Testament. Is this "contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church"? Certainly not! At Lanciano, Southern Italy, in the 8th century CE. in the little church of St.Legontian, there was a Eucharistic miracle in response to a Basilian monk's doubt about the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. At the altar the host was changed into "live Flesh" and the wine into "live Blood". It was investigated by various commissions. In November 1970 the illustrious scientist Dr.Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy at the Hospital of Arezzo, assisted by Prof.Ruggero Bertelli, Professor of Human Anatomy at the University of Siena, analysed this phenomenon with scientific precision and documented with a series of microscopic photographs. They concluded: 1.The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood. 2.The Flesh and Blood belong to the human species. 3.The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart. 4.In the Flesh we see present in sections the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium. 5.The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure. 6.The Flesh and the Blood have the same bloodtype AB. 7.In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of fresh normal blood. 8.In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium. 9.The preservation of the Flesh and the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon. 10.In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano. There are books on Eucharistic miracles. If Dr.Santosh is interested in explaining them away, he could read them. I do not want piecemeal and biased amateur answers... ***I am not an agent of Julia Youn Kim. I only defend the Eucharistic miracles as signs of God's power against those who treat them as "bogus" or as "superstitions" in this Forum... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "raju gonsalves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There seems to be quite a hue and cry about the miracles. ***Precisely because they happen, but are being denied by some scientists. SEEK N YOU SHALL FIND... I am seeing that the revelations by our lady of fatima, are happening, may be I sought - so why dont you all seek. ***Therefore, you accept miracles. You seek miracles. Visions and apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima have been tested and approved by the Church authorities. They belong to the phenomenon of Incarnation which is the kernel of Christianity. You do not need any "hue and cry about the miracles". You only need discernment. What I am writing is not for you. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Sun, 8/24/08, edward desilva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Does Santosh aspect the Devil to work miracles? Again as the saying goes: >if >your god is good my devil is not bad, is that what you are saying >Santosh? > I am saying that I do not care why people believe in miracles. They are free to do so in their own personal lives. Just as there are theists who believe in miracles, there are many New Age non-theists who believe in all kinds of miraculous paranormal powers and cures. I have nothing to say in favor and against their faiths. My concern is limited to explaining why those who claim in the public domain that their supernatural beliefs have been validated by science, are spreading bogus information. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Roland Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Unless you are a Saldanha apologist, there was no need to > drag Lisette Saldanha, the Goan Convention, and settling of scores into > this thread at all. > I would like to remind Roland that it is he who injected the Saldanhas in this discussion, and his belief that he is like the ordinary folks while I wear a badge of learning just as a Saldanha wears a badge of social status. Please see his earlier post in this thread to verify the truth of what I am saying. I reiterate that Roland knows nothing about me, the types of badges I wear or do not wear, and my motivation for writing in this forum. I would therefore kindly request him not to mischaracterize what I am and what I do in this public forum. However, I have neither denied him nor objected to his right to comment on the substance of my posts. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Roland Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In what was a Faith thread, all I said was that faith was > worn as a > badge of learning in your case and as a social statement > badge by > Kevin. I then went on to explain what faith meant to those > of us who > have it. Why should we let you atheists go unchallenged in > debate? We > have the right to express our viewpoint also. >
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
For a scientist Santosh, you have written a particularly unscientific reply. Unless you are a Saldanha apologist, there was no need to drag Lisette Saldanha, the Goan Convention, and settling of scores into this thread at all. In what was a Faith thread, all I said was that faith was worn as a badge of learning in your case and as a social statement badge by Kevin. I then went on to explain what faith meant to those of us who have it. Why should we let you atheists go unchallenged in debate? We have the right to express our viewpoint also. You should have just answered for yourself. Not inserted global economics or your commonality (or lack thereof) with Kevin into this as it had no relevance at all. Oh by the way, you do have something in common with Kevin which is why I mentioned him. You two are the most often professed non-believers on this forum. Cheers to you too mate, Roland. On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't know why Saldanhas are brought up in this thread when no Saldanha has > participated in it. If Roland is using this thread as another excuse to > settle scores with Kevin and Lisette Saldanha because of his personal issues > with them then I would kindly request him not involve me in his petty > squabbles. I have nothing to do with the recent Toronto Goan convention, and > I have very little in common with Kevin.
[Goanet] Lourdes miracles
(a) In response to this from me: As a practising Roman Catholic and a believer in the occurence of un-explained cures /recovery from what was previously believed to be incurable ilnesses (i.e. miracles), (b) edward desilva responded thus: So, you have not heard of unexplained miracles happening to people of other religion, including atheists? == jc's response: 1. It must be that Engish is a difficult language to comprehend or that 2: (as Nehru put it) Goans are ageeb or else 3: On what basis Edward jump to the above conclusion? No other explanation for edward's inexplicable and totally bizzare response to what I wrote except that it (edward's response) may be a miracle sincerely jc
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
"J. Colaco said: Dear all,As a practising Roman Catholic and a believer in the occurence of un-explained cures /recovery from what was previously believed to be incurable ilnesses (i.e. miracles), - Reply: So, you have not heard of unexplained miracles happening to people of other religion, including atheists? So, if that happens to a Hindu, do they call it miracle via Christian God? (considering only Catholics believe in miracles created by God and no other source). I believe in Hinduism (not as a religion but as s system) it existed long before Jesus Christ, Jesus even advised his disciples NOT to go to India, saying they have their own belief, (refer to King James version of the bible - new testament). According to Hinduism there is a power that helps us all the time (other than the planetary Gods the Vedas talks about) this powerful help is unique to each individual, this source is called 'Ishta Devta', Hindus have not publicised this source of power that helps us, because Hinduisms is a religion that is transferred from word of mouth, (very few people read Sanskrit to get the exact picture - I know it through translated books). With this power behind us we do not need miracles, if one believes in this source and asks for help from their personal Ishta Devta, catastrophes are avoided - thus getting rid of our need for miracles. This Ishta Devta does not have the power to give you an extra limb, or give you all the gold in the world, but to help and to make our life bearable - IF ONLY WE WOULD REALISE. ED. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
--- On Sun, 8/24/08, Roland Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To the Helekars and the Saldanhas of this world, faithlessness either > >becomes a badge of learning (Helekar) or a badge of social statement >(Saldanha). > I don't know why Saldanhas are brought up in this thread when no Saldanha has participated in it. If Roland is using this thread as another excuse to settle scores with Kevin and Lisette Saldanha because of his personal issues with them then I would kindly request him not involve me in his petty squabbles. I have nothing to do with the recent Toronto Goan convention, and I have very little in common with Kevin. Roland's accusation that I am wearing some kind of badge of learning is gratuitous and baseless. He does not know me, nor do I know him. The only thing that I have now come to realize from the above post and other recent ones is that he is no ordinary man. He is certainly more privileged than I am. For example, he knows more about global economics than the experts at Goldman Sachs. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 8/24/08, Roland Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But to us ordinary folks, even those without the compulsion > of fear of the unknown or the fear of deprivation, physical or mental > affliction, faith is just something we have acquired, live with, > attempt to understand and choose to believe. >
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
(1) edward desilva wrote: [Same way Santosh is hiting a brick wall, no amount of evidence will convince these brainwashed people (from birth) that 'God' does not exist.] (2) Santosh Helekar wrote: [My responses in this thread has nothing to do with convincing people about the existence or non-existence of God. I only want to present accurate information about observations in the natural world ] Dear all, As a practising Roman Catholic and a believer in the occurence of un-explained cures /recovery from what was previously believed to be incurable ilnesses (i.e. miracles), I agree with the points expressed by Dr. Santosh Helekar. (vide foot of this msg). I do understand that there is a "scientific committee" and a process for these miracles - BUT if any process is going to be accepted, the process has to be open and transparent. I suggest that IF we really want to investigate ANY matter - we should invite inspection from the 'skeptical' side. One of the recent examples of the alleged facts in the 'Da Vinci Code' which were used by Rt. Wing Hindus as "Gospel" - is that it cleverly tried to hide under the cover of 'artistic work' while pretending to be 'based on facts'. Just like the note on the boxes which says: Contains 100% juice". Nota Bene: It is quite different from "Contents are 100% Juice". I must say that I am amazed by the writings of Fr. Ivo. Is that sort of stuff helping or not-helping the faith I have that the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Christ - the serious failings of the human faces of the Church notwithstanding? Is so, why bombard me and the rest of us with junk? In conclusion, I'd say this: The avenue open to anyone who wishes to counteract Santosh's position is the following: Advise us that he/she a: has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occured b: has personally reviwed all the original details of the case. c: is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'. sincerely jc == Some of the Points made by Santosh Helekar 1. The claims that any of these "miracles" were investigated by following proper scientific procedures are false 2. I want to demonstrate that those who claim scientific legitimacy for their belief in the authenticity of these "miracles" are being misled by bogus pronouncements in propaganda publications and on the internet because they refuse to or are not able to critically evaluate these pronouncements. 3. In the case of the Korean "miracle", ... the Church authorities themselves have rejected it as fraudulent, and warned against its propagation among their followers
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
--- On Sun, 8/24/08, ralph rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Last time I heard Goanet was a forum for discussing social issues of >concern > to Goans and not debating matters of faith. > Matters of faith and reason are social issues that are of concern to many Goans, as they are to the rest of the world. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
Ralph Rau said: Fr. Ivo should stop trying to defend his faith. It merely attracts the ire of the detractors.Footnote: Faith can also be seen working its miracles in Tirupati and elsewhere Reply: Although I agree with you. I do not agree with your footnote. Darwin asked: Why does God create life so that it can be eaten by another? I don't mean man eating cows etc. Darwin meant wasps laying their eggs in another insect which paralyses that insect so that it can be eaten by the wasps' young after they are hatched. A miserable and painful death for the insect, at the same time the insect knowing that it is being eaten can do nothing because it is paralysed. ED. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Santosh said: My responses in this thread has nothing to do with convincing people about the existence or non-existence of God. I only want to present accurate information about observations in the natural world. Reply: It has every thing to do with the existence of God. No God, no miracles, simple as that. Does Santosh aspect the Devil to work miracles? Again as the saying goes: if your god is good my devil is not bad, is that what you are saying Santosh? If People did not believe in God this conversation would not have taken place. ED. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
Well said Ralph. To the Helekars and the Saldanhas of this world, faithlessness either becomes a badge of learning (Helekar) or a badge of social statement (Saldanha). But to us ordinary folks, even those without the compulsion of fear of the unknown or the fear of deprivation, physical or mental affliction, faith is just something we have acquired, live with, attempt to understand and choose to believe. To us no proof is necessary except that with which we are favored and blessed in our personal lives whether deserved or not. Regards, Roland Francis Toronto +1 (416) 453.3371 On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:56 PM, ralph rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Last time I heard Goanet was a forum for discussing social issues of concern > to Goans and not debating matters of faith. > > Its rightly said - to those who believe (the man of the cloth, Fr. Ivo) no > proof is necessary. To those who cannot, will not, or do not (the doubting > Thomases - all of them) no proof is sufficient. --
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles - Faith or God in action
Last time I heard Goanet was a forum for discussing social issues of concern to Goans and not debating matters of faith. Its rightly said - to those who believe (the man of the cloth, Fr. Ivo) no proof is necessary. To those who cannot, will not, or do not (the doubting Thomases - all of them) no proof is sufficient. Fr. Ivo should stop trying to defend his faith. It merely attracts the ire of the detractors. Footnote: Faith can also be seen working its miracles in Tirupati and elsewhere
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
edward desilva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Same way Santosh is hiting a brick wall, no amount of evidence will >convince >these brainwashed people (from birth) that 'God' does not exist. > My responses in this thread has nothing to do with convincing people about the existence or non-existence of God. I only want to present accurate information about observations in the natural world. This means the following: 1. I want to tell you that the claims that any of these "miracles" were investigated by following proper scientific procedures are false. I have given you reasons and provided you with evidence for this contention. 2. I want to demonstrate that those who claim scientific legitimacy for their belief in the authenticity of these "miracles" are being misled by bogus pronouncements in propaganda publications and on the internet because they refuse to or are not able to critically evaluate these pronouncements. For example, lack of understanding of biology leads them not to realize that a human being with type AB blood cannot be haploid (possess only 22 autosomes instead of 44). Ignorance about what is meant by the method of science leads to them to believe that the simple use of any chemical test is enough to claim that an intense scientific procedure was followed. 3. I want to let you know that an absolute faith in the goodness and virtuousness of a pious person belonging to their religion leads many people not to be skeptical of his/her claims, not to accept that he/she is capable of deception. The reality is that all cases that have been properly investigated scientifically, have turned out to be instances of outright deception or self-deception. 4. In the case of the Korean "miracle", I want to point out that the Church authorities themselves have rejected it as fraudulent, and warned against its propagation among their followers. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
DEar friends, Thre seems to be quite a hue and cry about the miracles. SEEK N YOU SHALL FIND ; is a commonly known phrase, those who have sought excellence in a particular sphere has found itis'nt it ? be it excellence in sports, education, public life religion, holiness etc. to be able to experience a mialce or get a mirale By th Hand of God, you need to be holy, prepered for it, seeking it - thus pls do not wish that miracles happen to everyone. I am seeing that the revealations by our lady of fatima, are happening, may be I sought - so why dont you all seek. wishes. RG. --- On Sat, 8/23/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Saturday, August 23, 2008, 8:32 PM > From: "Albert Desouza" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ***I am reproducing the witness of those who have seen the > white host being > transformed into "flesh and blood", thus > confirming the words of Jesus of > his real presence in the Eucharist through > transubstantiation. I hope that > the readers will see that there are "Eucharistic > miracles" in our times. > Albert writes: >>>...Many times Miracles are man > made. If God wanted to show > these miracles He would show it to everyone and not only to > few. > ***Miracles are a part and parcel of the Christian > Revelation. Miracles can > be worked only by God. Man-made miracles are not miracles. > The Church > defined the possibility of miracles. Miracles are signs of > God's power. God > works according to his Will and Plan. Signs from heaven > should not be > demanded, as Jesus himself warned us. They should be humbly > recognized. > >>>There has been instances of bogus miracles too > which I do not like to > >>>discus on this net not out of fear but out of > disgust. > ***I am speaking of Lourdes miracles and Eucharistic > miracles, recognized by > the Church. I am not referring to "bogus" > miracles which are not miracles at > all... > >>>The person who has seen God is Jesus Christ. He > has clearly mentioned > >>>every inch of his knowledge into the Bible and > there lies the > >>>authenticity of God. Many times the clergy take > undue respect of calling > >>>human beings as scholars of the church or > scholars of the scriptures. > >>>There are no scholars of the scriptures unless > God reveals the matter to > >>>them. > ***God spoke through the prophets and through Jesus his Son > to humanity. > Scriptures mediate this "God-talk" to us. > Theologians and scriptural > scholars have their important role in the Church. God > speaks to us today > also through the theologians and the Church. Instead of > writing against the > teaching of the Church, I hope you will learn from the > theologians and the > priests. > > >>>Hope I am clear. > ***Yes, I hope that I am also clear. > Regards. > Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Albert Desouza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ***I am reproducing the witness of those who have seen the white host being transformed into "flesh and blood", thus confirming the words of Jesus of his real presence in the Eucharist through transubstantiation. I hope that the readers will see that there are "Eucharistic miracles" in our times. Albert writes: >>>...Many times Miracles are man made. If God wanted to show these miracles He would show it to everyone and not only to few. ***Miracles are a part and parcel of the Christian Revelation. Miracles can be worked only by God. Man-made miracles are not miracles. The Church defined the possibility of miracles. Miracles are signs of God's power. God works according to his Will and Plan. Signs from heaven should not be demanded, as Jesus himself warned us. They should be humbly recognized. There has been instances of bogus miracles too which I do not like to discus on this net not out of fear but out of disgust. ***I am speaking of Lourdes miracles and Eucharistic miracles, recognized by the Church. I am not referring to "bogus" miracles which are not miracles at all... The person who has seen God is Jesus Christ. He has clearly mentioned every inch of his knowledge into the Bible and there lies the authenticity of God. Many times the clergy take undue respect of calling human beings as scholars of the church or scholars of the scriptures. There are no scholars of the scriptures unless God reveals the matter to them. ***God spoke through the prophets and through Jesus his Son to humanity. Scriptures mediate this "God-talk" to us. Theologians and scriptural scholars have their important role in the Church. God speaks to us today also through the theologians and the Church. Instead of writing against the teaching of the Church, I hope you will learn from the theologians and the priests. Hope I am clear. ***Yes, I hope that I am also clear. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Santosh Helekar said:- I think Fr. Ivo and others would do well to heed the following excerpts from the authoritative 1998 decree of the concerned Archbishop regarding the fraudulent miracles of this mystic called Julia Kim: --- Hi, Richard Dawkins (British author/scientist who does not believe god exists, said to an African Bishop, "I'm an African Ape are you a Bishop" (he did not say are you an African Ape in case he would insult him). Bishop said "I'm a human". fruitless discussion followed, which ended without result. Same way Santosh is hiting a brick wall, no amount of evidence will convince these brainwashed people (from birth) that 'God' does not exist. If there is no Christian God there will be a Muslim God if not, a Hindu God. There ARE people who WANT God in their life, its a psychosomatic drug. To prove that there is God, Catholics believe in miracles, ie. we got evidence in miracles (poor understanding of science?). ED. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Fri, 8/22/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ***I am reproducing the witness of those who have seen > the white host being transformed into "flesh and blood", > thus confirming the words of Jesus of his real presence in the Eucharist > >through transubstantiation. I hope that the readers will see that there >are > "Eucharistic miracles" in our times. > I think Fr. Ivo and others would do well to heed the following excerpts from the authoritative 1998 decree of the concerned Archbishop regarding the fraudulent miracles of this mystic called Julia Kim: EXCERPTS FROM ARCHBISHOP'S SOLEMN DECREE AGAINST JULIA KIM'S "MIRACLES" "1.2. The phenomenon alleged as a miracle of the Eucharist fallen from heaven is contradictory to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that only through the priest's consecration does the sacrament of the Eucharist begin to exist (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1411: DS. 902) even though the priest is in grave sin, because when all the sacraments are justly celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church(ex opere operato), Christ and His holy Spirit operate in them (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1128: DS. 793-794). Furthermore, the alleged phenomenon that as soon as Mrs. Julia Youn received the Eucharist, it was changed into a lump of bloody flesh in her mouth is also contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that even after the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ with the formula of priests' consecration, the species of bread and wine remain (cf. Pope Paul Ⅵ's mysterium Fidei: DS. 782, 802, 1321, 1640-1642, 1652). Such phenomena do not function as signs enhancing the faithful's belief in the Eucharist existing under the species of bread and wine. On the contrary, they seem to act as an element which, causes a great confusion, and embarrasses the believers faith in the Eucharist." "2. I, the Archbishop of Kwangju Archdiocese, as an authentic teacher of the faith and the legitimate shepherd sincerely ask all the priests, the religious and the faithful in the diocese and those who are involved in "the events arising in Naju" to receive these pastoral instructions in the spirit of obedience to the authentic teaching authority. 2.1.For the sake of one's personal interest in the alleged disturbing phenomena like "the events arising in Naju" to consider and insist on them as supernatural is regarded as an act breaking the unity of the Church's faith. So publication or dissemination of all materials for propaganda relating to "the events arising in Naju" (like printed or published literature, audio/video tapes, photos, etc.) is officially forbidden (cf. Canon Law 823, 1), and it is also my request to refrain from reading and seeing the relevant documentation." "on the 1th January 1998, Solemnity of Mary the holy Mother of God Signed Archbishop of Kwangju Victorinus K. Youn" Please see http://www.kjcatholic.or.kr/naju/gong1998e.html Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: **In the case of Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, how can you perform this "scientific procedure"? So after all this talk about using a scientific procedure to certify miracles, we have a concession that such a procedure cannot be performed in this case. ***This procedure is not the only one. Physicians have used another scientific method, as I have mentioned by quoting their news. This method is valid in this case. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ***I would be for a natural effect of placebo. But is it a "placebo >effect" in those cases which have been documented after long and intense >research by the International Medical Panel? As far as science is concerned, the panel has clearly never done anything to rule out simple explanations such as the placebo effect and spontaneous remissions. ***Do those scientists agree with you? An embarrassing example from the 60's makes this amply clear. On the recommendation of the people voting for the majority in the international medical panel meeting, a woman with a condition called Budd-Chiari syndrome was certified to have been miraculously cured from that disease in 1963. A few years later, as expected, the miracle ended like all other such hoaxes. The "miraculously cured" woman died from the same disease. ***This case is not found in the dossier of 68 miracles. Where did you find it? Are all miracles "such hoaxes"? Or do you accept exceptions? As one Vatican official now concedes: "What seems like a miracle now may not be one in a hundred years. Such are the advances of science. Declarations of miracles are not infallible teachings". ***Who has said this? Advances of science have a limit. Miracles are signs of God's love. They confirm our faith.They are based on prudence and human faith. Can all the miracles from hundred years ago be declared as feasible today through modern medicine? Do you accept that there are infallible teachings of the Church? What is the foundation of these teachings? The Church teaches the possibility of miracles. Christianity is a historical religion, and therefore accepts God's action in history. If there is any doubt about the futility of this miracle-mongering nonsense, the above candid admission should dispel it. ***Does it do away with the faith of the Church in miracles? Most of us do not experience such miracles. Yet we believe because of the evidence that is offered to us. Are all those who believe in miracles credulous and ignorant? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Kabira khada bazaar mein, maange sabki khair, Na kehu se dosti, na kehu se bair -- Kabir Miracles are to be ignored for betterment of our life. I totally agree with V.Gadgil. I am also surprised and happy ...not to read "Question everthing" at the end. Shrikant Vinayak Barve Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > **In the case of Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, how can > you perform this "scientific procedure"? > So after all this talk about using a scientific procedure to certify miracles, we have a concession that such a procedure cannot be performed in this case. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >***I would be for a natural effect of placebo. But is it a "placebo >effect" >in those cases which have been documented after long and intense >research by >the International Medical Panel? > It is quite natural that Fr. Ivo has not been able to understand my arguments as to why what the so-called international medical panel does, is not even cursory scientific research, let alone an intense one. As far as science is concerned, the panel has clearly never done anything to rule out simple explanations such as the placebo effect and spontaneous remissions. A long follow-up is useless in this regard. An embarrassing example from the 60's makes this amply clear. On the recommendation of the people voting for the majority in the international medical panel meeting, a woman with a condition called Budd-Chiari syndrome was certified to have been miraculously cured from that disease in 1963. A few years later, as expected, the miracle ended like all other such hoaxes. The "miraculously cured" woman died from the same disease. As one Vatican official now concedes: "What seems like a miracle now may not be one in a hundred years. Such are the advances of science. Declarations of miracles are not infallible teachings". If there is any doubt about the futility of this miracle-mongering nonsense, the above candid admission should dispel it. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...any scientific procedure requires that properly blinded and objective researchers obtain quantitative data about the probability of occurrence of the phenomenon under observation in the special condition under study, and then compare this probability with that of its occurrence in a control (properly matched) group of people under appropriately controlled conditions. Since the so-called miracles are by definition rare events, this is a monumental task. ***Precisely, they are rare and extraordinary events. They cannot be compared with others, because all the hypotheses of placebo effect and spontaneous remissions are excluded. There is a long follow-up. In a real scientific procedure one would have to track down at least a large random sample of people suffering from the specific type of disease in question, who have ever made a pilgrimage to Lourdes, and investigate what happened to them. This is obviously extremely difficult to do. But if one could do this, and it turned out that all these other 167,323 individuals were dead or dying from the disease, in spite of undergoing an intensive regimen of prayer or immersion in holy water, then one would have to find out if the tiny probability (let us say 2 out of 167,323) of "miraculous" recovery from the dreaded disease was significantly higher than the probability of this recovery occurring in a comparable sample of control (properly age-matched, gender-matched, etc) people who had the same disease but did not go to Lourdes for treatment. ***Physicians there can control only those cases coming to Lourdes, not of the whole world, as you only admit. We cannot exclude that there can be miracles in other parts of the world. Some of them may not be documented. There will not be cures for all the cases. We do not expect divine feats in every disease and every case. But we only verify some extraordinary cases, which are well documented, and conclude that they are "extraordinary, miraculous" cases. It should be obvious to those of you who have followed the logic here that if it turns out that two or more individuals from this latter group had also recovered spontaneously from the disease, then no particular benefit from the pilgrimage would be deemed to have occurred. ***Physicians will exclude that this is a case of spontaneous remission. Care is taken, for example, with cancer, which is usually not admitted for the canonization of Saints. The descriptions provided by Fr. Ivo in his last two posts, and all other published information on this miracle business, show that nothing of this nature has ever been done. **In the case of Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, how can you perform this "scientific procedure"? This "miracle business" is more complex and requires a different methodolgy, which has been used by scientists and theologians. But suppose you undertake such a genuine scientific project, and it turns out that there are 50 other cases of spontaneous cures in the Lourdes group and only 10 in the control, and the difference is statistically significant. Would we then conclude that we have witnessed extraordinary events or miracles? Would it entail any kind of supernatural explanation at all? ***Are there so many and such "spontaneous cures" in the hospitals? How to explain these phenomena in situations of intense faith and prayer? Can just a warm concern (or psychological and social factors) for the dying person bring him/her back to a normal situation? This does not happen always, but if it happens even rarely can we speak of "spontaneous remissions" or of "placebo effect"? Absolutely not! There is a much more parsimonious explanation for this observation. This explanation has been codified in several decades of clinical trial literature as the Placebo effect. ***I would be for a natural effect of placebo. But is it a "placebo effect" in those cases which have been documented after long and intense research by the International Medical Panel? These rhetorical questions have a self-evident answer: This cannot be "placebo effect". It requires a different explanation. Can Science explain it? A biased answer against the existence of God and against miracles does not solve the problem. ...and this indeed turns out to be their last impenetrable bastion of complacency - of being content with living in a state of blissful ignorance. ***Science will never be able to answer all these problems, or rather mysteries, and do away with our "blissful ignorance"... I thank Dr.Santosh for trying to give his answers for our "eternal" questions, though they may not be convincing... Let us continue our research and formulate our statements with more precision... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think as of January 21, 2008 Julia Kim and her followers have been excommunicated by the Archbishop because of the possibility of fraud, and the embarrassment these unruly "miraculous" events that she is staging, might be causing the Church. ***Yes, you are right. The Archbishop of Kwangju Andreas Choi Chang-mou issued the decree of excommunication latae sententiae on Jan. 21, 2008, on Julia Youn Kim and her followers for the sake of healthy faith life, unity and communion of the church. The Archbishop has been directing them since 1998. The Archbishop has not denied the Eucharistic phenomena, he has ruled the chaotic situation created by the propanda in the diocese and other places: building a shrine in Naju, South Korea, going from diocese to diocese for healing ministry, clashing with the bishops through newspapers and Internet. It requires Archbishop's permission. The problem is with the discipline, not with the charisms, provided that there is right discernment in handling visions and miracles. **When Dr.Santosh is demanding a scientific proof of the "Eucharistic miracles", we should demand from him a scientific handling of the data offered to us by the case. He cannot handle them in an un-scientific way. Half knowledge is dangerous. Dr.Santosh can produce more "miracles" by attributing atheistic and agnostic affirmations to the Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor of Westminster. Nobody is forbidden to speak of miracles. Jesus of Nazareth has worked them as it is well attested in the Gospels. The Church has witnessed to them from the beginning of her history. The Church teaches us about miracles in the Council Vatican I and The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Our faith is not based on miracles alone. They confirm our faith. He has also forbidden his subordinates and co-religionists from propagating these fake miracles on the internet and through the print media. I guess that would apply to Fr. Ivo as well. ***I am not propagating false "miracles", which would not be miracles at all. I am not an agent of Julia Youn Kim. I am defending the teaching of the Church herself in the light of biblical Revelation and investigating it in the light of modern science, which is open to miracles through its concepts of relativity and uncertainty of quantum physics. There are criteria given by the Church to discern miracles. There are Eucharistic miracles in different parts of the world. Physicians have investigated them. They are real miracles. There are books on Eucharistic miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ***Studies on the blood of Christ have revealed that Jesus > had only 23 chromosomes plus one for a male or the additional Y >determinant > making a total of 24. > It would be interesting to find out what it would take to strain the credulity of most people in this forum. It is impossible for a man with 22 autosomes and 2 sex chromosomes to have type AB blood, because the gene (alleles) for A and B antigens are on the 9th pair of chromosomes, each chromosome in the pair being inherited from each parent. So who is lying here? The man who claims Christ had type AB blood or the man who claims he was haploid? BTW, it is not possible to detect chromosomes in old dried blood, and the Shroud of Turin has been repeatedly shown to be a fake. To keep a count of tales that fail the laugh test, we have three so far in this thread, one of whose failure has been certified by Church authorities, namely the Julia Kim fiasco mentioned earlier. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > d. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, > which is also > the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all > other Eucharistic > Miracles. >
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "edward desilva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Byron the English poet once asked: I can see crutches, and wheelchairs, on display hanging all around, but I do not see any artificial limbs. Why is that? ***They are too costly. Some people have left crutches and wheelchairs when they received miracles from above, whether they are in their own place or went to Lourdes... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...more importantly, modern science teaches us that it is foolish to draw premature conclusions from lack of knowledge about something at any given time. ***Right. Science has its limitations. These conclusions do not belong to its competence. Science certainly does not think it is very wise to resort to supernatural or miraculous explanations for the natural universe. ***Right. This task is beyond the scope of Science. Instead, it demands that we continue our honest and dispassionate quest for natural explanations. ***Right. Scientists should continue their work, without denying what is beyond their realm. Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe?
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
> From: "Fr. Ivo C da Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles Why all this heated debate about 'miracles'? What are they worth anyway? There's this famous story about the Buddha. He watched a saintly chappie walk across the river and then commented, "I can cross that river by paying a penny for the ferry." That's about the value of most 'miracles', they don't help anybody in particular, are believed in only by those predisposed to belief and distract attention from more important matters in both spiritual and temporal realms. -- Kabira khada bazaar mein, maange sabki khair, Na kehu se dosti, na kehu se bair -- Kabir
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The level of gullibility displayed in the quoted post indicates that the people involved in propagating such "miracles" do not want their claims to be subjected to real scientific tests, and face the prospect of disillusionment. ***This is wrong. The Church does not accept easily the phenomena as "miracles" without proper investigation. The Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano has been investigated and physicians have accepted it. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "edward desilva" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ...similar miracles were performed by a portuguese lady. ***Thank you, Edward, for the news and precaution. If this is the case, the alleged "miracle" will be revealed. My contention is that there are Eucharistic miracles. I happened to give this example, since my memory took me to what I read in 1995 about Julia Youn Kim, in Naju, Korea, and now I found it again. The Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano has been investigated. You can read about other Eucharistic miracles. Yet, I repeat: our faith in the Eucharist is not based on the miracles. They only confirm our faith in the words of Jesus. There is no conflict with Science, it goes beyond the natural, phenomenal realm. It is, therefore, called "supernatural". Christian religion is historical revelation of God. Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How can it be "pious fraud"? Has Julia Kim done it in the presence of so many people? Has she put hen's meat in her mouth? Is this the scientific explanation?
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> btw, what would the bloodtype of the offspring be, if a virgin with bloodgroup AB was with a child? Dear Orlando, Thanks for your question. I hope that Dr.Santosh will try to answer you, if he accepts that Mary conceived Jesus without sexual-genital intercourse... My answer would be that the Virgin Mary could belong to AB blood group, as many people in the Near East. From the investigation of the Eucharistic blood in Lanciano, it is found that the blood belongs to AB group, as also the blood stains found on the Shroud of Turin. Jesus belonged to AB group. My acceptance of the virginal conception of Jesus is based on the documentary, historical and theological grounds (cf.Mt 1:18; Lk 1:34-35; see the Catechism of the Catholic Church). The Catholic Church teaches it. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human
origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of
>type AB.
The type AB blood means that the owner of the blood was born out of the
normal biological union of a man and a woman. The possibilities of pairing
of blood types of the father and mother, respectively, were as follows: A
and B, A and AB, B and A, B and AB or AB and AB.
There are type AB blood groups among different people, especially in the
Near East. From investigations upon the miracle since 1574, there is
evidence of the
Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano to this day. In 1970-1971, Professor Odoardo
Linoli, eminent
Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and
Clinical Microscopy, and
Professor Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena, conducted a
scientific investigation into the miracle. The report was published in
Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori in 1971, and
reaffirmed by a scientific commission appointed by the Higher Council of the
World Health Organization in 1973. The following conclusions were
drawn: a. The Flesh of the miracle is real Flesh and the Blood is real
Blood.
b. The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
c. In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the
endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for
the large thickness of the myocardium. The Flesh is a heart complete in its
essential structure.
d. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also
the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic
Miracles.
e. In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions
(percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh
normal blood.
f. In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides,
phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
g. There is no trace whatsoever of any materials or agents used to
preserve the Flesh or Blood.
The Flesh and Blood of the miracle can still be seen today. The Host-Flesh,
which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is
fibrous and light brown in colour, and becomes rose-coloured when lighted
from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an
earthly colour resembling the yellow of ochre.
***Studies on the blood of Christ have revealed that Jesus had only 23
chromosomes plus one for a male
or the additional Y determinant making a total of 24. There is no human
being today in the
world who has 24 chromosomes in their blood, only Christ has this to
indicate that He is the Son of God ('the true God') and the Son of
Mary, the human mother, who donated His Body. I still need more research on
this point.
Virginal conception of Jesus in based on documentary, historical,
theological evidence. It is better if it can be confirmed scientifically.
Gospels speak of the
historical tradition, namely that Mary conceived before she went to live
together with her legal husband,
Joseph (Mt 1:18; Lk 1:34-35).
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Mervyn Lobo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have not being opening any of the posts on this subject simply because it is beyond common sense that it is in Lourdes that God concentrates on answering requests and providing miracles. If God cannot find you in your living room, s/he is not going to find you in Lourdes. In fact, it would be a terrible God that would give you a disease in your home and then demand you go to Lourdes to be cured. ***Nobody is bound to read all the postings appearing in Goanet. But the reason given not to read "any of the posts on this subject" seems to be silly. I have never said that there are miracles only in Lourdes. God can work miracles anywhere. My contention was that there are "extraordinary phenomena" in Lourdes, which have been scientifically documented. They challenge medical science. Science finds them beyond its reach. They are "miracles" out of several healings that take place there. They go beyond the placebo effect or spontaneous remissions. Even when there are not healings, there can be "inner healing" and acceptance of redemptive suffering. The conclusion is that there is no conflict between Science and Bible. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Hi, I do not know who this JK is. Is she Portuguese? WELL, similar miracles were performed by a portuguese lady. Example: The person who does painless surgery in Philippines without cutting the skin has been declared as fake, all the blood and gore that he produces are hidden in a condome, which he bursts while doing his tirckery. ED. - --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How can it be "pious fraud"? Has Julia Kim done it in the presence of so many people? Has she put hen's meat in her mouth? Is >this the scientific explanation? Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles/Livingroom miracles
Folks, I have not being opening any of the posts on this subject simply because it is beyond common sense that it is in Lourdes that God concentrates on answering requests and providing miracles. If God cannot find you in your living room, s/he is not going to find you in Lourdes. In fact, it would be a terrible God that would give you a disease in your home and then demand you go to Lourdes to be cured. Mervyn3.0 __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
btw, what would the bloodtype of the offspring be, if a virgin with bloodgroup AB was with a child? Just curious... Orlando - Original Message - --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of >type AB. The type AB blood means that the owner of the blood was born out of the normal biological union of a man and a woman. The possibilities of pairing of blood types of the father and mother, respectively, were as follows: A and B, A and AB, B and A, B and AB or AB and AB. Cheers, Santosh E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10440e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
--- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human > origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of > >type AB. > The type AB blood means that the owner of the blood was born out of the normal biological union of a man and a woman. The possibilities of pairing of blood types of the father and mother, respectively, were as follows: A and B, A and AB, B and A, B and AB or AB and AB. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Hi, Byron the English poet once asked. I can see crutches, and wheelchairs, on display hanging all around, but I do not see any artificial limbs. Why is that? ED. -- Fr.Ivo wrote: "Miracles are assessed by scientific procedures as being "extraordinary events", beyond the reach of the physical laws". I am giving more information about Lourdes Miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo __ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe.? It is also said : A fool may easily find more faults than a wise man can easily mend. ***I do agree with you, Dr.Ferdinando, that there is a lot of uncertainty in the scientific-medical field. People who never smoke nor drank alcohol die of cancer. Of course, due to other factors. But what a complexity of factors! Since Medicine is one of my areas of interest, I am giving the news about one physician who has investigated the Eucharistic miracle. You will not have any difficulty to accept it. Dr.Santosh Helekar, to whom I am offering these postings, should strike a better balance between what he knows and much that he does not know... Regards. Fr.Ivo "Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano Edoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy. The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano. When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood. Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral. Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world. At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically. Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena. Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of "miraculous flesh and blood." He presented his findings on March 4, 1971. His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB. Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that "as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue." In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that "the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions." "The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%," Linoli said. Linoli's analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered. Linoli's report was published in "Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori" in 1971. In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor's conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy. The extract of the scientific research of WHO's medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science's inability to explain the phenomenon. Today, Linoli participated in a congress on Eucharistic miracles organized by the Science and Faith master's program of Rome's Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, in cooperation with the St. Clement I Pope and Martyr Institute, on the occasion of the Year of the Eucharist under way. "Eucharistic miracles are extraordinary phenomena of a different type," Legionary Father Rafael Pascual, director of the congress, told Vatican Radio. "For example, there is the transformation of the species of bread and wi
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
I was taught that wisdom lies in not saying or making claims about what one does not know. For example, contrary to what the post quoted below says, physicists and cosmologists know that there indeed is chaos in the universe. But more importantly, modern science teaches us that it is foolish to draw premature conclusions from lack of knowledge about something at any given time. Science certainly does not think it is very wise to resort to supernatural or miraculous explanations for the natural universe. Instead, it demands that we continue our honest and dispassionate quest for natural explanations. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool > says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we > know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. > But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes > cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many > others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the > heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of > heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know > why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe.? It > is also said : A fool may easily find more faults than a > wise man can easily mend. >
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe.? It is also said : A fool may easily find more faults than a wise man can easily mend. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão. _ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://msn.coxandkings.co.in/cnk/cnk.do
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Many years ago I had written why the bureaucratic procedure of certification of a miracle described in the post below is not a scientific procedure at all. A modified and updated version of my write up is give below: Simply put, any scientific procedure requires that properly blinded and objective researchers obtain quantitative data about the probability of occurrence of the phenomenon under observation in the special condition under study, and then compare this probability with that of its occurrence in a control (properly matched) group of people under appropriately controlled conditions. Since the so-called miracles are by definition rare events, this is a monumental task. In a real scientific procedure one would have to track down at least a large random sample of people suffering from the specific type of disease in question, who have ever made a pilgrimage to Lourdes, and investigate what happened to them. This is obviously extremely difficult to do. But if one could do this, and it turned out that all these other 167,323 individuals were dead or dying from the disease, in spite of undergoing an intensive regimen of prayer or immersion in holy water, then one would have to find out if the tiny probability (let us say 2 out of 167,323) of "miraculous" recovery from the dreaded disease was significantly higher than the probability of this recovery occurring in a comparable sample of control (properly age-matched, gender-matched, etc) people who had the same disease but did not go to Lourdes for treatment. It should be obvious to those of you who have followed the logic here that if it turns out that two or more individuals from this latter group had also recovered spontaneously from the disease, then no particular benefit from the pilgrimage would be deemed to have occurred. Well, the actual situation is even more complicated than what I have just described, as those with some statistics background would realize. However, the impossibility of performing the above simplified, yet massive, project to scientifically demonstrate that anything extraordinary has occurred, should be fairly plain to most people. The descriptions provided by Fr. Ivo in his last two posts, and all other published information on this miracle business, show that nothing of this nature has ever been done. But suppose you undertake such a genuine scientific project, and it turns out that there are 50 other cases of spontaneous cures in the Lourdes group and only 10 in the control, and the difference is statistically significant. Would we then conclude that we have witnessed extraordinary events or miracles? Would it entail any kind of supernatural explanation at all? Absolutely not! There is a much more parsimonious explanation for this observation. This explanation has been codified in several decades of clinical trial literature as the Placebo effect. It is an umbrella term that groups together all possible psychological and social factors that might emanate from the self-knowledge that something is being done to cure your disease, and from the personal self-confidence that this ritual will cure it. The biological basis of this phenomenon is being currently unraveled, and it won't be long before we know how this occurs exactly, unless the guardians of the unsupported belief in the constricted potential of the human intellect attain their vindication, and this indeed turns out to be their last impenetrable bastion of complacency - of being content with living in a state of blissful ignorance. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Fr.Ivo wrote: "Miracles are assessed by scientific > procedures as being > "extraordinary events", > beyond the reach of the physical laws". > I am giving more information about Lourdes Miracles. > Regards. > Fr.Ivo > > Cures and Miracles > Near the busy medical bureau is a fascinating photographic > display of > pilgrims who have been cured, with notes about their > conditions.
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As you can see, the procedure described below is clearly not a scientific procedure of any kind. ***After all kinds of tests and monitoring, after all research by physicians of different nations and faiths (or no-faith), after long follow-up, it is un-scientific to say that it is not scientific procedure. A committee meeting chaired by a Bishop deciding by a 2/3 majority vote whether something is unexplained or inexplicable based on current knowledge, is possibly the farthest one can get from a scientific procedure. ***Dr.Santosh is again confusing the issues and not handling scientifically what has been presented to him by the Committee itself. The Bishop may or may not accept as a "miracle" what the majority of physicians, dealing with the case and consulted for the cases, deems to be medically not feasible. After a strict medical procedure, the case is defying medical science. An incurable case has been cured in that specific manner, as it is given by the criteria for miraculous cases. Out of 7,000 healings, only 68 are considered to be "miracles". To deny is as un-scientific as to call any case a miracle. What's more, the fact that the committee members are presumed to be pious Christians, as stated below, with a strong ideological conflict of interest, and a vested desire to continue their hallowed traditions, makes this exercise not even a nominally objective one. ***By the fact of being Christians, they do not cease to be scientists. "Pious Christians" do not call any case a "miraculous cure", but discover that Science could not do what has happened in the present case. We Christians do accept miracles, worked out by the power of God, as signs of his love, precisely because our reason tells us. Science tells us that it is objectively so. It is a long process. If we had just to find out miracles, one could easily find. In spite of medical progress, we know how difficult it is to cure diseases. The Christian does not invent miracles, nor expect that every suffering will be healed by medicine or by miracle, but accepts also suffering, for s/he knows the redemptive value of suffering. The deck is undoubtedly loaded and stacked in favor of affirming their preconceived beliefs. ***This is another un-scientific, gratuitous affirmation coming as it comes from a scientist. It is coming from his "preconceived belief" that there is no God, no miracles. It is his biased ideology... The claim that this is a scientific procedure is therefore laughable by any standard. ***The conclusion is clear: One cannot deny miracles by laughing at a scientific procedure. The procedure itself leads us to accept that it is beyond the scientific realm, to faith in miracles. It is laughable to find such a statement among scientists. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Fr.Ivo wrote: "Miracles are assessed by scientific procedures as being "extraordinary events", beyond the reach of the physical laws". I am giving more information about Lourdes Miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo Cures and Miracles Near the busy medical bureau is a fascinating photographic display of pilgrims who have been cured, with notes about their conditions. This is open to the public. A lot of faith lies behind a cure but how do you demystify the beliefs surrounding Lourdes? Current medical opinion is hugely important in helping to define a miraculous cure, requiring an alliance between science and the church. A miracle is "an extraordinary event, believed to be due to a benevolent divine intervention, to which is attributed a spiritual significance." Today, after intense medical and ecclesiastical refinement, the recognition of a cure or miracle requires four stages. Submission to an examination by the medical bureau of Lourdes When a pilgrim claims a cure he or she is examined by the pilgrimage doctor before being referred to the doctors at the medical bureau, which was established in 1947. This body is responsible for the first level of assessment when validating a cure. The pilgrim, along with their case notes, is examined by the presiding doctors, all witnessed by the rector of the sanctuary and the pilgrim's priest. The medical criteria for a cure must be satisfied. a.. The illness has been authenticated and the diagnosis is correct. b.. The prognosis of the disease must be clear cut, including those regarded as permanent or terminal in the near future. c.. The cure is immediate, without convalescence, complete, definitive, and lasting. d.. The prescribed treatment could not be contributed to the cause of the cure or an aid to it. When a cure is confirmed, collegial assessment requires the pilgrim to meet with the medical bureau over a further three years. If the majority of doctors wish, the file of the cured pilgrim will be sent to the Lourdes International Medical Committee (CMIL), which was established in 1954. Submission to an examination by the international committee The international medical committee assesses the cures over 10 to 15 years and observes the patient's development. It certifies medically any proposed file, so constituting the final judicial process. After a positive decision, the file of the cure is sent to the church authorities. Convening of the Diocesan Canonical Commission The duty of pronouncing a cure as a miracle rests with the bishop of the diocese of the person who has been cured. The Diocesan Canonical Commission of priests, canons, theologians, and doctors is called together and when its conclusions are positive the bishop asks the diocese to recognise the cure as a "sign of God," a miracle.
