[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
There are those of us who are betting real $s that GAE is a real platform for serving an app that needs to scale. I am grateful that GOOG lets me host my glassblowing web site for free (scalability not an issue). I expect to pay money to GOOG for this platform if/when things go well. Hopefully I will pay them a lot :-). My $.02 is that the email-based QA support has been very good. The GAE Marketing department seems to need major surgery: - you have to set meet a feature roadmap (with dates), - you have to be able to provide reference customers. These are business basics. Jeff On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 7:38 PM, GenghisOnemdkach...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Juguang Your words provide a nice counter-balance to those who are not so happy with App Engine. Yes, you are correct in reminding us all that we should be grateful for something free. And yes App Engine has likely provided a whole bunch of young, inquiring minds with an amazing opportunity to tinker and learn on a global scale. But for some strange reason, I'm also reminded of that old saying...you get what you pay for. On Jul 16, 7:26 pm, Juguang XIAO jugu...@gmail.com wrote: Dogfooding, as wikipedia names it, is ideological, may not be practical. People, as well as company, lives practically for surviving first then chasing dreams. I have seen the positive movement from Google, did so much for developers. People may take it for granted, thinking the leader should do more. I am content with GAE, as it offers some free and exciting stuffs. I cannot ask Google to give more, unless he decided so. People can be happy when they are grateful. Technically speaking, I do not think Google offers its best to developers. It will be too costy to do so. Their mainstream businesses need to be maintained, and I guess each business unit has its own authority and freedom to do thing in their own way. Core businesses and technologies need to be protected. If you are not happy, go for Microsoft. ;-) I do not believe, people can run their serious business without serious pay. 6.5 hour per day CUP time is enough for casual applications. If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
I am working on three toy projects using Google App Engine. I chose GAE because it was the cheapest and most practical solution (no time wasted in sys admin, installation, hardening, etc...). Working with GAE is a lot of fun, I'm learning new things every day and I get to interact with some of the coolest engineers at Google. It's unbelievable how much they are giving back to the community (tons of open source projects and libraries, Google IO sessions...) Amazon is garbage. a) I found their offering super expensive; b) virtualization is a security and performance nightmare c) their network infrastructure and international connectivity is really bad; you talk about eating your dog food, Amazon can't even serve its own ads and banners reliably, they take forever to load. Two weeks ago, our basecamp and highrise was lagging like crazy... can you guess what was the root cause? The static images are hosted on s3 and were taking 60 seconds to load. For their initial proof of concept, Serge and Larry used a disparate cluster of salvaged and borrowed computers. You can still take this very same approach using AppScale, an open-source GAE implementation (it's sponsored by Google) and it lets you run GAE on top of Amazon or whatever else you have. You can also rent cheap Quad core servers with 8GB of RAM and 2TB of bandwidth from Hetzner for 40 EUR per month (I use one of these as a staging server for bulk uploads) On Jul 15, 11:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
Dogfooding, as wikipedia names it, is ideological, may not be practical. People, as well as company, lives practically for surviving first then chasing dreams. I have seen the positive movement from Google, did so much for developers. People may take it for granted, thinking the leader should do more. I am content with GAE, as it offers some free and exciting stuffs. I cannot ask Google to give more, unless he decided so. People can be happy when they are grateful. Technically speaking, I do not think Google offers its best to developers. It will be too costy to do so. Their mainstream businesses need to be maintained, and I guess each business unit has its own authority and freedom to do thing in their own way. Core businesses and technologies need to be protected. If you are not happy, go for Microsoft. ;-) I do not believe, people can run their serious business without serious pay. 6.5 hour per day CUP time is enough for casual applications. If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- = Juguang XIAO Beijing, China
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
Hi Juguang Your words provide a nice counter-balance to those who are not so happy with App Engine. Yes, you are correct in reminding us all that we should be grateful for something free. And yes App Engine has likely provided a whole bunch of young, inquiring minds with an amazing opportunity to tinker and learn on a global scale. But for some strange reason, I'm also reminded of that old saying...you get what you pay for. On Jul 16, 7:26 pm, Juguang XIAO jugu...@gmail.com wrote: Dogfooding, as wikipedia names it, is ideological, may not be practical. People, as well as company, lives practically for surviving first then chasing dreams. I have seen the positive movement from Google, did so much for developers. People may take it for granted, thinking the leader should do more. I am content with GAE, as it offers some free and exciting stuffs. I cannot ask Google to give more, unless he decided so. People can be happy when they are grateful. Technically speaking, I do not think Google offers its best to developers. It will be too costy to do so. Their mainstream businesses need to be maintained, and I guess each business unit has its own authority and freedom to do thing in their own way. Core businesses and technologies need to be protected. If you are not happy, go for Microsoft. ;-) I do not believe, people can run their serious business without serious pay. 6.5 hour per day CUP time is enough for casual applications. If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
Hi there. I did not pay anything for any services, inc. gmail, google docs, gmaps, to Google.:-) She got big pays by someone else. For GAE as hosting provider, i agreed that for exceeding quota it may be more expensive than other providers. However, different people have different ways to calcuate the cost. As for me as an individual, I am not thinking to pay for it at this moment. :-p Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:38 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Juguang Your words provide a nice counter-balance to those who are not so happy with App Engine. Yes, you are correct in reminding us all that we should be grateful for something free. And yes App Engine has likely provided a whole bunch of young, inquiring minds with an amazing opportunity to tinker and learn on a global scale. But for some strange reason, I'm also reminded of that old saying...you get what you pay for. On Jul 16, 7:26 pm, Juguang XIAO jugu...@gmail.com wrote: Dogfooding, as wikipedia names it, is ideological, may not be practical. People, as well as company, lives practically for surviving first then chasing dreams. I have seen the positive movement from Google, did so much for developers. People may take it for granted, thinking the leader should do more. I am content with GAE, as it offers some free and exciting stuffs. I cannot ask Google to give more, unless he decided so. People can be happy when they are grateful. Technically speaking, I do not think Google offers its best to developers. It will be too costy to do so. Their mainstream businesses need to be maintained, and I guess each business unit has its own authority and freedom to do thing in their own way. Core businesses and technologies need to be protected. If you are not happy, go for Microsoft. ;-) I do not believe, people can run their serious business without serious pay. 6.5 hour per day CUP time is enough for casual applications. If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? No, but that has nothing to do with quotas. GAE is pretty far from a reasonable platform for a search engine. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. If GAE's free quota is not sufficient to evaluate your idea, perhaps you should evaluate it using a service that provides sufficent free quota. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. I'm pretty sure that the GAE TOS forbid that solution. On Jul 16, 7:26 pm, Juguang XIAO jugu...@gmail.com wrote: Dogfooding, as wikipedia names it, is ideological, may not be practical. People, as well as company, lives practically for surviving first then chasing dreams. I have seen the positive movement from Google, did so much for developers. People may take it for granted, thinking the leader should do more. I am content with GAE, as it offers some free and exciting stuffs. I cannot ask Google to give more, unless he decided so. People can be happy when they are grateful. Technically speaking, I do not think Google offers its best to developers. It will be too costy to do so. Their mainstream businesses need to be maintained, and I guess each business unit has its own authority and freedom to do thing in their own way. Core businesses and technologies need to be protected. If you are not happy, go for Microsoft. ;-) I do not believe, people can run their serious business without serious pay. 6.5 hour per day CUP time is enough for casual applications. If you need more, try to create multiple account, schedule roster among them, sync your data among them. This is the solutions. If terms and conditions of use of GAE allows, there will be open souce projects for GAE clustering. Juguang On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM, GenghisOne mdkach...@gmail.com wrote: So it looks like there's an updated Google App Engine roadmap and guess what...no mention of full-text search. Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit odd? How can an emerging cloud computing platform not effectively address full-text search? And what's really odd is the absolute silence from Google...quite frankly, I don't get it. On Jul 16, 12:28 pm, Bryan bj97...@gmail.com wrote: This is a very interesting discussion. I would like to see some input from Google. On Jul 15, 10:20 am, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[google-appengine] Re: Eating one's own dog food
I understand that BigTable is behind GAE, but my concern is more with GAE performance and quotas. If GAE had existed when Larry and Sergey were developing their pagerack algorithm, would they have used GEA for evaluation? I have my doubts. They would quickly reach quota limits, way before they knew if they had a viable idea. Richard Tony wrote: Though I realize this is not exactly what you're asking, the concept of GAE is that it exposes some of the infrastructure that all Google applications rely on (i.e. Datastore) for others to use. So, in a sense, Google's various applications were using App Engine before App Engine existed. As far as I know, every Google service runs on the same homogeneous infrastructure, which is part of what makes it so reliable (and why the only available languages are Python and Java, languages used internally at Google). But I don't work there, so maybe I'm completely off-base. On Jul 15, 12:53 pm, richard emberson richard.ember...@gmail.com wrote: Eating one's own dog foodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_one's_own_dog_food or in this case: Using one's own cloud. Amazon' cloud is based upon the IT technology they use within Amazon. Salesforce.com's Force.com offering is what they used to build their CRM system. These cloud vendors Eat their own dog food. If a cloud vendor does not use their cloud offering for their other products and/or internal systems, one would have to assume that the cloud is viewed as a technology ghetto within their own corporation - good enough for others but not for ourselves. So, concerning the Google App Engine, are other groups within Google clamoring to port or build their offerings on top of the App Engine? If so, please be specific, what Google products and infrastructure and what are the schedules for their hosting on GAE? Is the GAE group supporting the Google Docs group as they move to use GAE? How about gmail, will the Google Gmail group be relying on GAE support? I have not seen emails from either of those internal Google groups on the GAE mailing list. Lastly, when will Google search be supported by the GAE group; Will those groups have to live under the same quota restrictions while they evaluate using GAE? If not, why not? If they are unreasonable for an internal evaluation, what makes them reasonable for an external evaluation? Evaluating whether or not GAE should be used for a particular application is not FREE even if one gets a very small slice of GAE resources with which to do the evaluation. Tens or hundreds of hours go into determine if GAE has the right characteristics and quotas that limit how fast one can work makes it worse. (Yes one can $$ for higher quotas, but during the evaluation phase $$ is out of the question.) Richard Emberson -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google App Engine group. To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
