Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Yeah, let's bend over and take, while still supporting them > From: mikesti...@gmail.com > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:50:56 -0600 > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > Thank you.. > > Really month after month it's the same complaints about Valve yet month > after month nothing changes.. We really don't need 15 people saying the same > thing over and over and over... > > I understand that this is a serious issue and it was brought up I just don't > see what complaining over and over about the same thing will do? > > I'm with you guys I'm just sick of the same emails just from a different > person day after day. I would like this list to get back to helping people > with the issues that was can address without valve... > > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rapp > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 PM > To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > Hi SakeFox, > > I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing list > is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if you > posted about your concern on a Valve forum. > > In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I > can't prevent thatI will say the following: > > Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy to > not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It > keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike, down > to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good company". > Let me assure of thisthey are listening. They take everything we say > here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their weekly > meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their > position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be > different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business, is > that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the > resources you have at the moment. > > That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the > entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there. > > Regards, > > Aaron Rapp > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or > really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one. > > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere, > but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and > help them, but now it's almost like what's the point. > > quoted from other post > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D. > > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not > reply to us about any other bug. just give up" > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I bet they dont even read this any more given all the threads like this. Even after we were all asked very nicely to desist. Can we please turn this into a moderated forum. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Blood Letter wrote: > > Yeah, let's bend over and take, while still supporting them > > > From: mikesti...@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:50:56 -0600 > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > Thank you.. > > > > Really month after month it's the same complaints about Valve yet month > > after month nothing changes.. We really don't need 15 people saying the > same > > thing over and over and over... > > > > I understand that this is a serious issue and it was brought up I just > don't > > see what complaining over and over about the same thing will do? > > > > I'm with you guys I'm just sick of the same emails just from a different > > person day after day. I would like this list to get back to helping > people > > with the issues that was can address without valve... > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rapp > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:51 PM > > To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > Hi SakeFox, > > > > I don't think that this is the place to post this. Again, this mailing > list > > is for information exchanging between server admins. It would be best if > you > > posted about your concern on a Valve forum. > > > > In light of that fact that others will post on this subject here, and I > > can't prevent thatI will say the following: > > > > Secondly, you should realize that it is just about every company's policy > to > > not admit fault. For a company the size of Valve, this is essential. It > > keeps the amount of negative feedback from reviewers and writers alike, > down > > to a minimum...which gives the rest of us the illusion of "a good > company". > > Let me assure of thisthey are listening. They take everything we say > > here or elsewhere and it gets put into an excel spreadsheet. In their > weekly > > meetings, they discuss each item and prioritize it. Unfortunately, their > > position on each item might be different from yours and yours may be > > different from mine. One thing you learn very quickly, in this business, > is > > that you will never make everyone happy. You have to make the most of the > > resources you have at the moment. > > > > That's all I can say on that. I hope you understand. It's hard to see the > > entire other side of the river until you're actually standing over there. > > > > Regards, > > > > Aaron Rapp > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox > > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:34 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or > > really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one. > > > > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere, > > but it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend > and > > help them, but now it's almost like what's the point. > > > > quoted from other post > > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there > > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell > > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I > > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch > > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve > > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly > > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D. > > > > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not > > reply to us about any other bug. just give up" > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _ > It's the same Hotmail(R). If by "same" you mean up to 70% faster. > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 > __
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about 1 year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res, how difficult? but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike Source can't, is it fair? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Yes it is fair if you have to ask. Do you know how much developers get paid? - It wouldn't be worth the money for them to pay one developer to work on this for an hour just so you can have something that was never in the release. You have paid for CS:S (hopefully) its provided 'as-is' anything extra that valve decides to add is a bonus. People have gone this long without extras in cs:s why should they change something now, just so you can bitch that there is something wrong with the new functionality. 2009/1/6 raydan > i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about 1 > year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res, > how > difficult? > > but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike Source > can't, is it fair? > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
ya, HUD display something wrong in CS:S, but not in TF2 and HL2:DM something wrong in old engine(HL2:DM,CS:S)? something wrong in famous game(CS:S)? if valve remove HUD display COMPLETELY from server side & client side forever, i want to see how many plugin will die and i never say HUD display again. i don't think valve will do that. 2009/1/6 Olly > Yes it is fair if you have to ask. > Do you know how much developers get paid? - It wouldn't be worth the money > for them to pay one developer to work on this for an hour just so you can > have something that was never in the release. > > You have paid for CS:S (hopefully) its provided 'as-is' anything extra that > valve decides to add is a bonus. People have gone this long without extras > in cs:s why should they change something now, just so you can bitch that > there is something wrong with the new functionality. > > 2009/1/6 raydan > > > i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about > 1 > > year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res, > > how > > difficult? > > > > but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike > Source > > can't, is it fair? > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to fix that. All they want is our money. You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? You know...so they could spend time with their families. Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at Valve. Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you." Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always j...@valvesoftware.com . Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few months. -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Well said Richard! I really wouldnt be suprised if we got an almighty mother of an update to l4d fairly soon! On 1/6/09, Richard Eid wrote: > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to > fix that. All they want is our money. > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at > Valve. > > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you." > > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always > j...@valvesoftware.com > . > > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring > you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would > understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few > months. > > > -Richard Eid > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
It's not that at all, at least not for me. Flagrant generalizations of the entire list? Hyperbole. Bugs have severity. In the software development industry, you have "Minor" bugs (cosmetic, no functionality broken), Serious bugs (Limited functionality) and Show Stoppers (like the kind of bugs that wipe out an entire server's population). I've already stated that Valve are visionaries in this field. And I assure you - I have a life outside of this list :) We don't need to stop to think about Christmas when our servers are crapping out left and right because of Valve's lack of QA. This should have been caught and fixed long before the christmas season. And I disagree with you on us not being the boss of Valve. We pay for their products. Without us to support them, Valve is doomed. *WE ARE THEIR BOSSES* as it is OUR money that powers their company. As such, I don't feel they are entitled to any such "break" when a huge problem like this exists. If it were MY code at MY job dropping client connections like this, I would be under immense pressure to fix it. And I would be very wise to acknowledge this and move forward if I want to KEEP my job. But what do I know. I'm just some kid who's got a wife, 3 kids and a $4400 mortgage. It's not like *I* matter! -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:13 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to fix that. All they want is our money. You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? You know...so they could spend time with their families. Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at Valve. Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you." Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always j...@valvesoftware.com . Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're ignoring you. But then, it would be stupid of me to assume that most of you would understand any of that, especially given your attitudes over the past few months. -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
some of the minor bugs i can deal with. i know they ignore stuff they think people will just ignore after time, look at CSS. but there are massive game killing bugs in L4D and TF2 that they are just completely ignoring. Map change timeout. this should have been fixed the 1 1/2-2months ago this was discovered and for L4D the hunter, melee & team balance bugs should have been fixed when they were discovered at launch. These bugs kill the game completely. Karl Weckstrom wrote: > It's not that at all, at least not for me. Flagrant generalizations of the > entire list? Hyperbole. > > Bugs have severity. In the software development industry, you have "Minor" > bugs (cosmetic, no functionality broken), Serious bugs (Limited > functionality) and Show Stoppers (like the kind of bugs that wipe out an > entire server's population). > > I've already stated that Valve are visionaries in this field. And I assure > you - I have a life outside of this list :) > > We don't need to stop to think about Christmas when our servers are crapping > out left and right because of Valve's lack of QA. This should have been > caught and fixed long before the christmas season. > > And I disagree with you on us not being the boss of Valve. We pay for their > products. Without us to support them, Valve is doomed. *WE ARE THEIR BOSSES* > as it is OUR money that powers their company. As such, I don't feel they are > entitled to any such "break" when a huge problem like this exists. > > If it were MY code at MY job dropping client connections like this, I would > be under immense pressure to fix it. And I would be very wise to acknowledge > this and move forward if I want to KEEP my job. > > But what do I know. I'm just some kid who's got a wife, 3 kids and a $4400 > mortgage. It's not like *I* matter! > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:13 AM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to > fix that. All they want is our money. > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at > Valve. > > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% won't be > happy no matter what. 4% will bring up another issue that Valve is > ignoring. And 1% will say, "Thank you." > > Yes, we paid money for the game. But $50 does not give you the right to > treat the people trying to help you like shit. Sometimes the problems that > you claim are easy fixes may not be so easy to fix. And since most of you > know for a fact that it's an easy fix, there's always j...@valvesoftware.com > . > > Grow up. They are aware of the problems. Like Aaron said, there are your > priorities and then there are business priorities. Just because the issues > high on your list may not be high on theirs doesn't mean they're
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck. If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers. I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe. If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation. Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade. Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > From: richard@gmail.com > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to > fix that. All they want is our money. > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at > Valve. > > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit > around and hop on every little problem we have. What happens when updates > are released to address the current existing issues? Are you going to > apologize for acting like a bunch of assholes or are you going to feel > stupid for saying things like, "Valve doesn't care about their games > anymore"? Wait...I know. 90% of you will say, "Finally." 5% w
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
The problem is that they add more bugs than they fix, I don't think they test updates at all. It sad since TF2 was so polished in beta and then there has been a lot of half bad changes and a bunch of bugs. Some examples: Since the recent engi update: *Flame/backburn attack animation never stops unless you switch weapon so it looks like you are running around with a big vibrator. Very annoying and I don't understand how these problems can get in the game, shipped and then not even fixed. Same for the other pyro bug below. *Teleporters looks like they are still working when the exit is destroyed. *The killcam sound is often missing and the game does not go quiet while showing it anymore. Since big pyro update: *Pyro animation never starts at the class selection screen. He is just standing there. How could you guys not have seen this for so long? *All primary weapon unlocks (even in heavy and medic update) got really ugly models. No, I'm not talking about the design. I play the game at the highest settings and mat_picmip -3 and the game is BEAUTIFUL, except for the bb, kk and slowgun (in that order) that look HORRIBLE. While this is probably not technically a bug I consider it as one because it drags the game down. Since big heavy update: *Sandvich taunts do not play unless you spam voice commands while the animation plays. *When you are killed in the final cart explosion an (random?) enemy will often get an assist or kill on you (I don't know which) and you see a killcam up in the air that shows… nothing at all. Since somewhere on the road: *A real showstopper; fake crits. I get more fake crits than I get real crits. I think it only happen with hitscan weapons and it happens all the time for heavy's and I mean all the time. It looks and sounds just like crits, but there is no "critical hit" text above the enemies. It is so bad I actually get happily surprised when playing heavy and people actually die when I crit. It only applies to random crits, kk it not affected. *And another really bad problem: Ambient sounds play when it should not. Often happens when you die or spawn for the first time. Playing Well while listening to the BLIP BLIP BLIP from the computers above the flag/final point at full volume everywhere on the map will drive anyone mad. Only fix is to rejoin or use snd_restart, but how many players know that? Besides it has bad side effects, like removing the sounds completely or making them play at other places where they should not be. *And a third one: Problems caused by lag. Mostly invisible players and cart indication goes away. Actually, the cart indicator ALWAYS goes away, you are very lucky if you can play a whole game of goldrush without losing it because every time there is a new round there is a high risk it will disappear. Only workaround is to rejoin or start recording a demo (!) because it apparently sync the game again or something, something that TF2 should be doing by itself anyway. To name a few... On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 6:34 AM, SakeFox wrote: > I posted this in another thread, but it wouldn't be good to steal it or > really bring that thread down so i thought i would just make a new one. > > I don't know how many people will post in this or if it will go anywhere, but > it's time to make a post to tell valve how we feel. I used to defend and help > them, but now it's almost like what's the point. > > quoted from other post > "you guys haven't realized yet that valve has stopped caring about there > games? We have been waiting for over a month for a fix for tf2 hell > there are still some bugs from the beta that they still haven't fixed. I > used to monitor my little bug list in the forums, but patch after patch > maybe only 2-3 bugs would actually get fixed i started to realize valve > doesn't give a crap about how there games run and that became overly > noticed when they refuse to fix the map change error in TF2 and L4D. > > Valve will not reply to your issue nor do they care. they will not > reply to us about any other bug. just give up" > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck. If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers. I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe. If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation. Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade. Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > From: richard@gmail.com > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to > fix that. All they want is our money. > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be difficult > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a thing as priorities in > life. Gaming is not as high on that list once you have a family to take > care of and a boss to answer to. And you are not the boss of anyone at > Valve. > > Valve knows about the problems, obviously. You all keep saying the same > things over and over. Give them a break. Just because you didn't have > anything to do for the past couple of weeks doesn't mean they had to sit > around and hop on every little problem we
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I work at a very large corporation that I bet everyone here has heard of (and uses products of ours) as a software engineer.. and I have just come back from my 2 week Christmas vacation. Why should valve work over Christmas? What makes them different? Just because McDonalds and KFC are open over the holidays doesn't mean every other place should be. To have people in during holidays, you have to pay again for heating, wages, etc. You bought the game 'as-is' valve are not expected to fix anything. It would of course be nice if they did, but they are no-way legally bound to do Anything more to it. 2009/1/6 Blood Letter > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of > documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the > fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > > From: richard@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second > of > > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse > to > > fix that. All they want is our money. > > > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no > lives > > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead > out > > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that > maybe...just > > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the > holidays? > > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until > now, > > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of > Valve > > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > > > They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe > to > > HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion, Valve isn't > > ignoring this list, they just don't want to reply. I swear, this list = > > SPUF sometimes. Any two words they say are held against them forever. > > > > I know that a lot of kids subscribe to this list, so it would be > difficult > > for a lot of you to understand, but there is such a th
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting more frequent. Karl Weckstrom wrote: > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". > > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended > while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly > prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system > at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the > office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid > and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure > our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only > have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's > salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of > documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying > Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't > understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, > you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a > particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the > fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even > a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 >> From: richard@gmail.com >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >> >> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix >> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of >> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to >> fix that. All they want is our money. >> >> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives >> outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since >> they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead out >> the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that maybe...just >> maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the holidays? >> You know...so they could spend time with their families. >> >> Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of >> updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until now, >> the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of Valve >> employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? >> >> They're ignoring us? Really? You think so? Does anyone here subscribe to >> HLCoders? A little civility goes a long way. In my opinion,
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I do agree with you. It's just plain silly that they don't have a proper beta program to test their code or something like it. I know tons of people who'd be more then willing to participate AND give constructive feedback. Also it's just plain silly that we have to put up an advert every couple of minutes to attend people on the fact that if you get a timeout at map change, you should rejoin the server and that this issue is caused by badly working Steam servers. It's been weeks now we suffer these programs. Even for a 'Best effort SLA' this would be looking very, very poor. Saint K. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of SakeFox Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:04 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting more frequent. Karl Weckstrom wrote: > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". > > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 >> From: richard@gmail.com >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >> >> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix >> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second of >> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse to >> fix that. All they want is our money. >> >> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no lives >> outside of this t
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient. While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release, why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing. If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client, and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on time. 2009/1/6 SakeFox > it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with > any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without > testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times > after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. > Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and > L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going > to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test > something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting > more frequent. > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > safe. > > > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart > because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and > they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any > semblance of documentation. > > > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct > documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A > doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. > > > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > > > > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > >> From: richard@gmail.com > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > >> > >> If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > >> everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second > of > >> every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse > to > >> fix that. All they want is our money. > >> > >> You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no > lives > >> outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > >> they all busted their asses for who kn
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Comments about working over Christmas are hardly reasonable in this case. We're paying customers, who pay additional money to support other paying customers' ability to play the game. Since the game launched the Sourcemod team have ported their API to L4D's engine and I've written plugins to fix most of the bugs and exploits, all on the unpaid time of volunteers. Valve are being *paid* to code the game, and the support just isn't there. If I shipped a product to a customer in this kind of state, I'd probably be fired. Valve have been seriously dropping in quality of late with regards to timeliness of bugfixes, response to communication, etc. Left 4 Dead in particular strikes me as an extremely lazy, rushed title - there's a large number of exploits, half of the maps are unfinished (not available in Versus mode), and servers repeatedly revert to the wrong game mode. There's also crap like the L4D beta having no way to allow private servers (and the current system, Steam group servers, is seriously broken as provided, and doesn't work for half my users) which shows an increasing disinterest in anything beyond getting cash in the bank from game sales. -Dave ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
oh i know how many different configurations there are. I do comp tech support for a trauma level 1 hospital. It would be completely different if they worked some some versions of there corresponding OS version, but its always the whole OS line. not just this version or that version of whatever OS Olly wrote: > If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are > out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient. > While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones > liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release, > why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing. > If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly > like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client, > and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on > time. > > 2009/1/6 SakeFox > > >> it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with >> any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without >> testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times >> after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. >> Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and >> L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going >> to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test >> something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting >> more frequent. >> >> Karl Weckstrom wrote: >> >>> Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>> >> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >>> >>> >>> If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, >>> >> without which their games would be useless, they suck. >> >>> If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go >>> >> unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, >> they clearly prioritize sales over customers. >> >>> I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a >>> >> system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into >> the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power >> grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make >> sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are >> safe. >> >>> If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they >>> >> only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company >> worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. >> >>> Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart >>> >> because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and >> they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any >> semblance of documentation. >> >>> Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're >>> >> saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you >> don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make >> games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working >> in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. >> >>> If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct >>> >> documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A >> doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. >> >>> No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some >>> >> support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those >> things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level >> of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. >> >>> If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, >>> >> that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear >> here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm >> sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I >> can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I >> wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support >> gets a passing grade. >> >>> Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with >>> >> even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. >> >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 From: richard@gmail.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.c
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Doesn't really matter, it's just something that is easy to blame errors on. I don't remember it being such a big problem before consoles made their comeback, maybe game developers got lazier? Most bugs that have to do with different hardware and software combinations are performance problems. All the bugs I listed are bugs in the game that you will experience on everything between a 133MHz Pentium and a HAL 9000. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM, SakeFox wrote: > oh i know how many different configurations there are. I do comp tech > support for a trauma level 1 hospital. It would be completely different > if they worked some some versions of there corresponding OS version, but > its always the whole OS line. not just this version or that version of > whatever OS > > Olly wrote: >> If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are >> out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient. >> While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones >> liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release, >> why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing. >> If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly >> like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client, >> and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on >> time. >> >> 2009/1/6 SakeFox >> >> >>> it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with >>> any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without >>> testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times >>> after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. >>> Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and >>> L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going >>> to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test >>> something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting >>> more frequent. >>> >>> Karl Weckstrom wrote: >>> Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, >>> without which their games would be useless, they suck. >>> If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go >>> unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, >>> they clearly prioritize sales over customers. >>> I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a >>> system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into >>> the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power >>> grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make >>> sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are >>> safe. >>> If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they >>> only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company >>> worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. >>> Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart >>> because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and >>> they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any >>> semblance of documentation. >>> Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're >>> saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you >>> don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make >>> games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working >>> in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. >>> If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct >>> documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A >>> doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. >>> No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some >>> support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those >>> things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level >>> of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. >>> If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, >>> that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear >>> here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm >>> sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I >>> can't be programming for
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
When talking about server binaries, you've got your OS and your CPU. Any system configuration issues are understandable. (For example, if Norton broke the server.) Seems to me the x86 instruction set + listed-as-supported linux/windows kernel versions provide only a dozen or so combinations. If you didn't test on said hardware+os, don't list it as supported. But the fact is we know the issues with the server code, and the client code, are not due to configuration differences, as they are experienced by all, and are repeatable. > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:12:15 + > From: oli...@gmail.com > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there are > out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient. > While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones > liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before release, > why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing. > If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound exactly > like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email client, > and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on > time. > > 2009/1/6 SakeFox > > > it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with > > any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without > > testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times > > after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server update. > > Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and > > L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going > > to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to test > > something before you make it live. This happens all the time and getting > > more frequent. > > > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > > > > > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > > > > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > > > > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > > safe. > > > > > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > > > > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart > > because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and > > they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any > > semblance of documentation. > > > > > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > > > > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct > > documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A > > doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. > > > > > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > > > > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer sup
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch them all talk to themselves. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:01 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! I work at a very large corporation that I bet everyone here has heard of (and uses products of ours) as a software engineer.. and I have just come back from my 2 week Christmas vacation. Why should valve work over Christmas? What makes them different? Just because McDonalds and KFC are open over the holidays doesn't mean every other place should be. To have people in during holidays, you have to pay again for heating, wages, etc. You bought the game 'as-is' valve are not expected to fix anything. It would of course be nice if they did, but they are no-way legally bound to do Anything more to it. 2009/1/6 Blood Letter > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of > documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the > fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > > From: richard@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second > of > > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse > to > > fix that. All they want is our money. > > > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no > lives > > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead > out > > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that > maybe...just > > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the > holidays? > > You know...so they could spend time with their families. > > > > Honestly, since release of TOB, there have been a relentless amount of > > updates to their products. In the time that has passed from TOB until > now, > > the only people being neglected were probably most of the families of > Valve > > employees. Does anyone feel they deserve a little break? > > > >
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I wish everyone had that attitude at my company :) Life would be so much easier. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike Stiehm Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:40 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch them all talk to themselves. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:01 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! I work at a very large corporation that I bet everyone here has heard of (and uses products of ours) as a software engineer.. and I have just come back from my 2 week Christmas vacation. Why should valve work over Christmas? What makes them different? Just because McDonalds and KFC are open over the holidays doesn't mean every other place should be. To have people in during holidays, you have to pay again for heating, wages, etc. You bought the game 'as-is' valve are not expected to fix anything. It would of course be nice if they did, but they are no-way legally bound to do Anything more to it. 2009/1/6 Blood Letter > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of > documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the > fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > > From: richard@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second > of > > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse > to > > fix that. All they want is our money. > > > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no > lives > > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead > out > > the door, while providing updates to TF2 the whole time, that > maybe...just > > maybe, they'd want to take a break for a little while during the > holidays?
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
At least my outlook rules get a workout ;) So many trash e-mails like this fill this mailing list up that I had to give this its own folder and rule. Pretty unbelievable that in about 1.5 months I have almost 2,000 messages from this list alone. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike Stiehm Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:40 AM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch them all talk to themselves. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:01 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! I work at a very large corporation that I bet everyone here has heard of (and uses products of ours) as a software engineer.. and I have just come back from my 2 week Christmas vacation. Why should valve work over Christmas? What makes them different? Just because McDonalds and KFC are open over the holidays doesn't mean every other place should be. To have people in during holidays, you have to pay again for heating, wages, etc. You bought the game 'as-is' valve are not expected to fix anything. It would of course be nice if they did, but they are no-way legally bound to do Anything more to it. 2009/1/6 Blood Letter > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free servers, > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free weekend, > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come into > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the power > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to make > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the servers are > safe. > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do they > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart because > they never respond to important issues, they're always late, and they never, > EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any semblance of > documentation. > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If you're > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then you > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to make > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. Working > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct documentation, > then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an A doesn't change the > fact that you still had an F. > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get some > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of those > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain level > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us expect, > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be clear > here - server admins are supporting Valve, not the other way around. I'm > sorry I can't apply for a job at Valve, I already have a job of my own. I > can't be programming for everyone in the world, can I? Regardless, I > wouldn't want to work in an office where a complete lack of customer support > gets a passing grade. > > Valve's lack of support and communication is indefensible to anyone with > even a remote knowledge of programming and software development. > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:12:41 -0500 > > From: richard@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > If Valve doesn't do everything we say, they suck. If Valve doesn't fix > > everything now, they suck. If Valve doesn't kiss our asses every second > of > > every day, they suck. They don't care, they won't fix this, they refuse > to > > fix that. All they want is our money. > > > > You all sound like a broken record. And worse than that, you have no > lives > > outside of this thing we have here. Did anyone stop to think that since > > they all busted their asses for who knows how long getting Left 4 Dead >
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
This is fairly obviously an unconstructive troll, but it also does a nice job of summing up why the situation is ridiculous - valve really couldn't care less about perfectly valid complaints about their game being broken as all hell. They don't even reply to the list with "we're looking at this" or "this will be fixed in build x", there's just endless complaints about bugs and no sign of any fixes that don't come from the parts of the community who actually care about the game being playable. As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any of their products. On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:40:15 -, Mike Stiehm wrote: > It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their > complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch > them > all talk to themselves. > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I discussed this with a Valve employee who said he would add it to the fixes in an upcoming release. I believe it was later squashed due to concerns about server plugins overusing it, but perhaps it will be in the OB update for CSS since it's been appearing in other mods as they move to the OB engine. I believe DODS was missing this also, but now has it. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, raydan wrote: > i ask valve add hud message display back into Counter-Strike Source about 1 > year, they haven't do anything, just add few line into ClientScheme.res, > how > difficult? > > but Team Fortress 2 include hud message display, why Counter-Strike Source > can't, is it fair? > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Kernel != Distribution Anyway I'm done with this. Have fun 2009/1/6 Blood Letter > > When talking about server binaries, you've got your OS and your CPU. > Any system configuration issues are understandable. (For example, if > Norton broke the server.) Seems to me the x86 instruction set + > listed-as-supported linux/windows kernel versions provide only a dozen or so > combinations. > If you didn't test on said hardware+os, don't list it as supported. > > But the fact is we know the issues with the server code, and the client > code, are not due to configuration differences, as they are experienced by > all, and are repeatable. > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:12:15 + > > From: oli...@gmail.com > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > If you had ANY remote idea of how many hardware/os configurations there > are > > out there that could cause problems, you would be a little more lenient. > > While some of valve's releases have been a little too buggy for anyones > > liking, i'm sure that they test things as much as they can before > release, > > why would they want to let them selves be known for this sort of thing. > > If valve took a day to fix a release for L4D for example, you sound > exactly > > like the type of person who would spend time, opening up his email > client, > > and writing another rant about how much valve fails for not releasing on > > time. > > > > 2009/1/6 SakeFox > > > > > it's been basically treated as the norm that it's russian roulette with > > > any update or game release. they keep pushing server files without > > > testing them and we suffer for it. i can't count the number of times > > > after a tf2 update that servers would work because of the server > update. > > > Look at the game launches TF2 linux binaries didn't work for hours and > > > L4D windows binaries didn't work for hours. Is the next game just going > > > to have broken binaries for both servers? Is it really that hard to > test > > > something before you make it live. This happens all the time and > getting > > > more frequent. > > > > > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > > Now THAT is what I consider "Well said". > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > > > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > > > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > > > > > > > > > If Valve completely ignores server operators who provide free > servers, > > > without which their games would be useless, they suck. > > > > > > > > If Valve lets long standing bugs, exploits, and security issues go > > > unattended while focusing only on the latest content update + free > weekend, > > > they clearly prioritize sales over customers. > > > > > > > > I don't know about Valve's office, but if something goes wrong with a > > > system at my office, even on Christmas day, we respond to it, and come > into > > > the office if necessary. If there are fires wreaking havoc with the > power > > > grid and people are being evacuated from their homes, we coordinate to > make > > > sure our servers are backed up, the backups are offsite, and the > servers are > > > safe. > > > > > > > > If someone at Valve wants a break, they can take vacation days. Do > they > > > only have 3 guys, and each only does 1 thing? I hope not. Any company > > > worth it's salt knows you need redundancy in your mind share. > > > > > > > > Valve IS ignoring this list, by not replying. They get torn apart > > > because they never respond to important issues, they're always late, > and > > > they never, EVER, provide clear and complete answers, let alone any > > > semblance of documentation. > > > > > > > > Even if I were a child, I would still be a paying customer. If > you're > > > saying Valve gets a pass because gaming is not a priority in life, then > you > > > don't understand a single thing about having a job. If your job is to > make > > > games, you do that. If your job is to deliver mail, you do that. > Working > > > in a particular job sector does not give you the right to slack off. > > > > > > > > If Valve fixes everything and provides complete and correct > > > documentation, then they get support and sales. Going from an F to an > A > > > doesn't change the fact that you still had an F. > > > > > > > > No one is treating Valve like shit. We are simply demanding we get > some > > > support, some documentation, and some communication. We get none of > those > > > things. Being a customer DOES give you the right to expect a certain > level > > > of quality and service from the business you are patronizing. > > > > > > > > If Valve's priorities continue to diverge from what so many of us > expect, > > > that's fine. They'll just lose our money and our support. Let's be > clear >
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
David Kellaway wrote: > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug > reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any > of their products. This is hardly a bug report. The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, exact error message. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
They already have this from some 500 messages back. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Leonard L. Church wrote: > > > > Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, > exact error message. > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Jason Ruymen posted this reguarding the timeout on map change on the 16/12/2008 "While I have no ETA for when this bug will be fixed, I do know we are currently working on it" maybe its a bigger problem which is taking them longer to sort out ? it would be nice for the guys at valve to post a update on it on how progress is going with it. Jason posted that like 2/3 weeks ago and as olly said they have probs been on a 2 week break over the christmas period. you dont know whats causing the problem so what makes you think valve will have it patched in a week ? give it time it might be a bigger problem then just timing out on map change but it will get fixed eventually ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
You mean like: Join a server. Wait for the map to change. Machine/Configuration: ANY Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. Join a server. Be moved to a CircleX server. Machine/Configuration: ANY Error message: NONE > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 > From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > David Kellaway wrote: > > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug > > reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy > > any of their products. > > This is hardly a bug report. > > The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! > > Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, > exact error message. > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Yes.. Like that.. But I can't get it to reproduce. I've actually haven't been dropped at all on servers that I play on (Mostly vanilla, but some with a few mods). So it's something else apparently. Actually, that leads me to believe it's the fault of some mod the person has installed on their server, but I may be wrong. So no. It's not as simple as you suspect. Blood Letter wrote: > You mean like: > > Join a server. > Wait for the map to change. > Machine/Configuration: ANY > > Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. > > Join a server. > Be moved to a CircleX server. > Machine/Configuration: ANY > > Error message: NONE > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 >> From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >> >> >> >> David Kellaway wrote: >>> As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug >>> reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy >>> any of their products. >> This is hardly a bug report. >> >> The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! >> >> Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, >> exact error message. >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _ > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. > http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
It happens on my TF2 servers which have sourcemod. People have reported it on TF2 servers that do NOT run sourcemod and are vanilla It happens on my L4D servers which are 100% vanilla. It happens on Server 2008 under VMWare ESXI. It happens on Server 2008 Native It happens on Ubuntu64 Linux (vanilla TF2, tested it myself) It happens on Slackware Linux (32 bit) It happens pretty much everywhere. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:54 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! Yes.. Like that.. But I can't get it to reproduce. I've actually haven't been dropped at all on servers that I play on (Mostly vanilla, but some with a few mods). So it's something else apparently. Actually, that leads me to believe it's the fault of some mod the person has installed on their server, but I may be wrong. So no. It's not as simple as you suspect. Blood Letter wrote: > You mean like: > > Join a server. > Wait for the map to change. > Machine/Configuration: ANY > > Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. > > Join a server. > Be moved to a CircleX server. > Machine/Configuration: ANY > > Error message: NONE > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 >> From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >> >> >> >> David Kellaway wrote: >>> As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug >>> reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy >>> any of their products. >> This is hardly a bug report. >> >> The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! >> >> Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, >> exact error message. >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _ > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. > http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in Protest? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
We don't need anything that drastic - just some kind of timeframe from Valve as to when this showstopper bug will be fixed, or perhaps some kind of workaround. I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Clyde cide Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in Protest? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
This happens on TF2 and L4D with no mod/addons (and has been confirmed). I have gotten this to happen windows XP, Vista, server 03 & 08. With L4D I would say it's about 1-3 VS games will end due to this bug before they make it to the 5th map. With TF2 we get this bug on average 3 times a day. With TF2 the more players you have the more chance you will get this bug. A somewhat empty server will occasionally get this bug to where a full TF2 (24) all the time will get this more frequently. and as stated in a email earlier it was stated someone was seeing this on there DODS server too, but that is only one complaint i have seen from the DODS part of the community. I know you like to think that we are just complaining to complain about this issues and we don't know how to test to see what is causing it, but before you jump to your assumptions read the archives since over a month ago this was already tested and confirmed to death. Karl Weckstrom wrote: > It happens on my TF2 servers which have sourcemod. > People have reported it on TF2 servers that do NOT run sourcemod and are > vanilla > It happens on my L4D servers which are 100% vanilla. > It happens on Server 2008 under VMWare ESXI. > It happens on Server 2008 Native > It happens on Ubuntu64 Linux (vanilla TF2, tested it myself) > It happens on Slackware Linux (32 bit) > > It happens pretty much everywhere. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:54 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > Yes.. Like that.. > > But I can't get it to reproduce. > > I've actually haven't been dropped at all on servers that I play on > (Mostly vanilla, but some with a few mods). So it's something else > apparently. Actually, that leads me to believe it's the fault of some > mod the person has installed on their server, but I may be wrong. > > So no. It's not as simple as you suspect. > > Blood Letter wrote: > >> You mean like: >> >> Join a server. >> Wait for the map to change. >> Machine/Configuration: ANY >> >> Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. >> >> Join a server. >> Be moved to a CircleX server. >> Machine/Configuration: ANY >> >> Error message: NONE >> >> >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 >>> From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellaway wrote: >>> As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any of their products. >>> This is hardly a bug report. >>> >>> The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! >>> >>> Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, >>> exact error message. >>> >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >> _ >> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. >> http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
"I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant." Kind of like this current thread yeah? On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > We don't need anything that drastic - just some kind of timeframe > from Valve as to when this showstopper bug will be fixed, or perhaps > some kind of workaround. > > I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > ] On Behalf Of Clyde cide > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in > Protest? > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
It happened to me for the first time on DODS last night. And happens on TF2 and L4D since first mentioned here. Windows Server 2003... I understand how long it can take developers to fix bugs, and am happy to wait for a well tested and verified working fix. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:24 PM, SakeFox wrote: > This happens on TF2 and L4D with no mod/addons (and has been confirmed). > I have gotten this to happen windows XP, Vista, server 03 & 08. With L4D > I would say it's about 1-3 VS games will end due to this bug before they > make it to the 5th map. With TF2 we get this bug on average 3 times a > day. With TF2 the more players you have the more chance you will get > this bug. A somewhat empty server will occasionally get this bug to > where a full TF2 (24) all the time will get this more frequently. > > and as stated in a email earlier it was stated someone was seeing this > on there DODS server too, but that is only one complaint i have seen > from the DODS part of the community. > > I know you like to think that we are just complaining to complain about > this issues and we don't know how to test to see what is causing it, but > before you jump to your assumptions read the archives since over a month > ago this was already tested and confirmed to death. > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > It happens on my TF2 servers which have sourcemod. > > People have reported it on TF2 servers that do NOT run sourcemod and are > vanilla > > It happens on my L4D servers which are 100% vanilla. > > It happens on Server 2008 under VMWare ESXI. > > It happens on Server 2008 Native > > It happens on Ubuntu64 Linux (vanilla TF2, tested it myself) > > It happens on Slackware Linux (32 bit) > > > > It happens pretty much everywhere. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:54 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > Yes.. Like that.. > > > > But I can't get it to reproduce. > > > > I've actually haven't been dropped at all on servers that I play on > > (Mostly vanilla, but some with a few mods). So it's something else > > apparently. Actually, that leads me to believe it's the fault of some > > mod the person has installed on their server, but I may be wrong. > > > > So no. It's not as simple as you suspect. > > > > Blood Letter wrote: > > > >> You mean like: > >> > >> Join a server. > >> Wait for the map to change. > >> Machine/Configuration: ANY > >> > >> Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. > >> > >> Join a server. > >> Be moved to a CircleX server. > >> Machine/Configuration: ANY > >> > >> Error message: NONE > >> > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 > >>> From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com > >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> David Kellaway wrote: > >>> > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers > bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy > any of their products. > > >>> This is hardly a bug report. > >>> > >>> The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! > >>> > >>> Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, > >>> exact error message. > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >> _ > >> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. > >> > http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 > >> ___ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > >> > >> > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I'm happy to wait too -- I just wish valve was more vocal to us to let us know the progress on all this. All we want is an answer that they are actively working on it and not let these threads constantly disappear and come backup only to be repeated over and over because its taking them so long to do (or not doing at all). Valve! Tell us what you are doing please. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com on behalf of Chris Sent: Tue 1/6/2009 3:32 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! It happened to me for the first time on DODS last night. And happens on TF2 and L4D since first mentioned here. Windows Server 2003... I understand how long it can take developers to fix bugs, and am happy to wait for a well tested and verified working fix. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:24 PM, SakeFox wrote: > This happens on TF2 and L4D with no mod/addons (and has been confirmed). > I have gotten this to happen windows XP, Vista, server 03 & 08. With L4D > I would say it's about 1-3 VS games will end due to this bug before they > make it to the 5th map. With TF2 we get this bug on average 3 times a > day. With TF2 the more players you have the more chance you will get > this bug. A somewhat empty server will occasionally get this bug to > where a full TF2 (24) all the time will get this more frequently. > > and as stated in a email earlier it was stated someone was seeing this > on there DODS server too, but that is only one complaint i have seen > from the DODS part of the community. > > I know you like to think that we are just complaining to complain about > this issues and we don't know how to test to see what is causing it, but > before you jump to your assumptions read the archives since over a month > ago this was already tested and confirmed to death. > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > It happens on my TF2 servers which have sourcemod. > > People have reported it on TF2 servers that do NOT run sourcemod and are > vanilla > > It happens on my L4D servers which are 100% vanilla. > > It happens on Server 2008 under VMWare ESXI. > > It happens on Server 2008 Native > > It happens on Ubuntu64 Linux (vanilla TF2, tested it myself) > > It happens on Slackware Linux (32 bit) > > > > It happens pretty much everywhere. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Leonard L. Church > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:54 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > > > Yes.. Like that.. > > > > But I can't get it to reproduce. > > > > I've actually haven't been dropped at all on servers that I play on > > (Mostly vanilla, but some with a few mods). So it's something else > > apparently. Actually, that leads me to believe it's the fault of some > > mod the person has installed on their server, but I may be wrong. > > > > So no. It's not as simple as you suspect. > > > > Blood Letter wrote: > > > >> You mean like: > >> > >> Join a server. > >> Wait for the map to change. > >> Machine/Configuration: ANY > >> > >> Error message: Standard connection problem counter til timeout. > >> > >> Join a server. > >> Be moved to a CircleX server. > >> Machine/Configuration: ANY > >> > >> Error message: NONE > >> > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:13:43 -0800 > >>> From: t...@mostdeadlygame.com > >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> David Kellaway wrote: > >>> > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers > bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy > any of their products. > > >>> This is hardly a bug report. > >>> > >>> The List: OMG! THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!11!!! VALVE IS THE SUXXORS!!! > >>> > >>> Bug Report: Steps to Reproduce, Detailed Machine stats, dxdiag report, > >>> exact error message. > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >> _ > >> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. > >> > http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 > >> ___ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > >> > >> > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, ed
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
there is a big difference from a boycott and a complaint Darren Gordon wrote: > "I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant." > > Kind of like this current thread yeah? > > > On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > >> We don't need anything that drastic - just some kind of timeframe >> from Valve as to when this showstopper bug will be fixed, or perhaps >> some kind of workaround. >> >> I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> ] On Behalf Of Clyde cide >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM >> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! >> >> So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in >> Protest? >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Maybe - That depends if Valve is reading these messages. I sincerely hope that they are. I agree with a previous poster that they need to be careful with their responses. If I were Valve, I would be very selective with my words. I *DON'T* agree with another poster that Valve "Doesn't Care" about their games or what we say about them. That's just silly reverse psychology. I certainly HOPE these emails from server operators aren't pointless. That would mean those who support valve are effectively neutered, and the only thing we can do to "retaliate" is to "not buy valve products", which would be a crappy final outcome for EVERYONE involved, don't you think? I am personally of the opinion that Valve WANTS us to be involved in their products and to support them as server operators. However I also believe that Valve is NOT prioritizing these issues as highly as what is warranted. I think we can **ALL** agree that this bug is grievous and should have been fixed long ago. I love everything about TF2's gameplay. What I don't like are the glaring exploits and bugs that ruin the experience for OUR players (Mine *AND* Valve's - we're in this together). Since I am involved in Valve's product to a large degree, I feel I have earned the right to voice my opinion given my current investment in Valve's products. I've given Time, Hardware and purchased bandwidth to their products, and would like to continue doing so - but I DO expect things in return from Valve. Sorry, I don't feel this thread is useless, nor do I think anyone that complains is even REMOTELY out of line. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Darren Gordon Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:27 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! "I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant." Kind of like this current thread yeah? On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > We don't need anything that drastic - just some kind of timeframe > from Valve as to when this showstopper bug will be fixed, or perhaps > some kind of workaround. > > I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > ] On Behalf Of Clyde cide > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in > Protest? > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
I disagree. If you have numerous server shut down then you also ignite a player base who will complain as well. The more who complain, the more likely you are to be heard. On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > We don't need anything that drastic - just some kind of timeframe from > Valve as to when this showstopper bug will be fixed, or perhaps some kind of > workaround. > > I doubt a boycott/shutdown would do anything significant. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Clyde cide > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > So how many of you are willing to shut down your servers for a week in > Protest? > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
unconstructive troll? Ya I'm sure you know me right? Just shows what type of person you are my friend to resort to name calling.. Sounds like you are the troll. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kellaway Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! This is fairly obviously an unconstructive troll, but it also does a nice job of summing up why the situation is ridiculous - valve really couldn't care less about perfectly valid complaints about their game being broken as all hell. They don't even reply to the list with "we're looking at this" or "this will be fixed in build x", there's just endless complaints about bugs and no sign of any fixes that don't come from the parts of the community who actually care about the game being playable. As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any of their products. On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:40:15 -, Mike Stiehm wrote: > It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their > complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch > them > all talk to themselves. > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
You must be new to this list... LOL I'm done with this also.. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kellaway Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! This is fairly obviously an unconstructive troll, but it also does a nice job of summing up why the situation is ridiculous - valve really couldn't care less about perfectly valid complaints about their game being broken as all hell. They don't even reply to the list with "we're looking at this" or "this will be fixed in build x", there's just endless complaints about bugs and no sign of any fixes that don't come from the parts of the community who actually care about the game being playable. As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any of their products. On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:40:15 -, Mike Stiehm wrote: > It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their > complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch > them > all talk to themselves. > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a different map? -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know some > kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, and > I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed > that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of > replies. > If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem > is being worked on and move on. > > *DUCKS* > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Internet fight. On 1/6/09, Mike Stiehm wrote: > unconstructive troll? Ya I'm sure you know me right? Just shows what type of > person you are my friend to resort to name calling.. Sounds like you are the > troll. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David Kellaway > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > This is fairly obviously an unconstructive troll, but it also does a nice > job of summing up why the situation is ridiculous - valve really couldn't > care less about perfectly valid complaints about their game being broken as > all hell. They don't even reply to the list with "we're looking at this" or > "this will be fixed in build x", there's just endless complaints about bugs > and no sign of any fixes that don't come from the parts of the community who > actually care about the game being playable. > > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers bug > reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never buy any > of their products. > > On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:40:15 -, Mike Stiehm > wrote: > >> It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their >> complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch >> them >> all talk to themselves. >> > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
This happens mostly on Payload maps. This has been stated probably 100 times already. On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 23:19 +, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > different map? > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't > go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or > should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know > some > > kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, > and > > I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen > > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > > > Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed > > that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of > > replies. > > If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem > > is being worked on and move on. > > > > *DUCKS* > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
Seriously, what's the point in being sarcastic like that? My point was it doesn't seem to happen on Goldrush that I have seen. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: 06 January 2009 23:45 To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change This happens mostly on Payload maps. This has been stated probably 100 times already. On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 23:19 +, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > different map? > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't > go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or > should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know > some > > kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, > and > > I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen > > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > > > Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed > > that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of > > replies. > > If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem > > is being worked on and move on. > > > > *DUCKS* > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
It's happened on goldrush on my server multiple times. This of course is all very well tread territory. On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > Seriously, what's the point in being sarcastic like that? > > My point was it doesn't seem to happen on Goldrush that I have seen. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper > Sent: 06 January 2009 23:45 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > This happens mostly on Payload maps. This has been stated probably 100 > times already. > > On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 23:19 +, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: >> I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a >> different map? >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger >> Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 >> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >> >> Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem > doesn't >> go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it >> is or >> should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. >> >> On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom >> wrote: >> >>> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to >>> know >> some >>> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with >>> priorities, >> and >>> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen >>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >>> >>> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve >>> confirmed >>> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another >>> month > of >>> replies. >>> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the > problem >>> is being worked on and move on. >>> >>> *DUCKS* >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, > please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
It happens on random maps. We've had it on many different types. It's a universal issue. On 1/6/09, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > different map? > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't > go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or > should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > >> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know > some >> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, > and >> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen >> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >> >> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed >> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of >> replies. >> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem >> is being worked on and move on. >> >> *DUCKS* >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
Agree. It's universal, but I have seen it most when transitioning to Badwater and Dustbowl. I've also seen it happen with 6 people on the server with a forced mapchange to forts. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cc2iscooL Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:59 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change It happens on random maps. We've had it on many different types. It's a universal issue. On 1/6/09, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > different map? > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't > go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or > should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > >> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know > some >> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, > and >> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen >> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >> >> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed >> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of >> replies. >> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem >> is being worked on and move on. >> >> *DUCKS* >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer!
Mike. You only look like a troll. LOL <3 Neil Voutt http://www.neilvoutt.com Sent from my iPhone On 6-Jan-09, at 6:16 PM, "Mike Stiehm" wrote: > You must be new to this list... LOL > > I'm done with this also.. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of David > Kellaway > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:50 AM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Valve It's Time To Listen And Answer! > > This is fairly obviously an unconstructive troll, but it also does a > nice > job of summing up why the situation is ridiculous - valve really > couldn't > care less about perfectly valid complaints about their game being > broken as > all hell. They don't even reply to the list with "we're looking at > this" or > "this will be fixed in build x", there's just endless complaints > about bugs > and no sign of any fixes that don't come from the parts of the > community who > actually care about the game being playable. > > As an aside, if you're a developer and you or your company considers > bug > reports to be 'spam', I'd love to know where you work so I can never > buy any > of their products. > > On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:40:15 -, Mike Stiehm > wrote: > >> It's like talking to a brick wall.. Let them spam the list with their >> complaints and hate mail for valve. Just sit back like I do and watch >> them >> all talk to themselves. >> > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
I've seen it going to 3rd party maps. It's all random, right when you think you have a lockdown on what's causing it, it will happen on that. I don't think it matters what game type or map it is, it happens... randomly. Sometimes many times in a day, and other days never. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Karl Weckstrom Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:36 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change Agree. It's universal, but I have seen it most when transitioning to Badwater and Dustbowl. I've also seen it happen with 6 people on the server with a forced mapchange to forts. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cc2iscooL Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:59 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change It happens on random maps. We've had it on many different types. It's a universal issue. On 1/6/09, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > different map? > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem doesn't > go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is or > should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom wrote: > >> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to know > some >> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with priorities, > and >> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen >> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >> >> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve confirmed >> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another month of >> replies. >> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the problem >> is being worked on and move on. >> >> *DUCKS* >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] hldsuptatetool hates me
OS: Win2k3 Server Command: HldsUpdateTool.exe -command update -game tf -dir d:\tf2 Result: Checking bootstrapper version ... Updating Installation Failed to create directory d:\tf2/orangebox\tf\materials\logo, Win32 Error 2 "Th e system cannot find the file specified." Steps tried to resolve problem: Completely wiped the d:\tf2 and did a fresh install. The update process stops working with an error message at around 70%. Each time I try this it stops working, and then when I try to run hldsupdatetool again it always gives me the same error message about not bing able to create the "logo" directory. Help! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] hldsuptatetool hates me
It could be a Content Server problem. Maybe try deleting the blob and pick up a different Content Server. That's just off the top of my head and probably not likely to fix the issue. :p Or just keep retrying, but in between, don't delete the directory entirely. Just press the up arrow or F3 to run the exact same command line. Sometimes I run into issues where it fails in the middle of the download and I just have to 'restart' it to continue the download. -Richard Eid On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Dustin Wyatt wrote: > OS: Win2k3 Server > > Command: HldsUpdateTool.exe -command update -game tf -dir d:\tf2 > > Result: > Checking bootstrapper version ... > Updating Installation > Failed to create directory d:\tf2/orangebox\tf\materials\logo, Win32 Error > 2 "Th > e system cannot find the file specified." > > Steps tried to resolve problem: > Completely wiped the d:\tf2 and did a fresh install. The update > process stops working with an error message at around 70%. > > Each time I try this it stops working, and then when I try to run > hldsupdatetool again it always gives me the same error message about > not bing able to create the "logo" directory. > > Help! > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] hldsuptatetool hates me
Sorry for two e-mails...make sure to add -verify_all to the end of the command line to account for any inconsistencies that may happen during the failed download. -Richard Eid On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:05 PM, Richard Eid wrote: > It could be a Content Server problem. Maybe try deleting the blob and pick > up a different Content Server. That's just off the top of my head and > probably not likely to fix the issue. :p Or just keep retrying, but in > between, don't delete the directory entirely. Just press the up arrow or F3 > to run the exact same command line. Sometimes I run into issues where it > fails in the middle of the download and I just have to 'restart' it to > continue the download. > > -Richard Eid > > > > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Dustin Wyatt wrote: > >> OS: Win2k3 Server >> >> Command: HldsUpdateTool.exe -command update -game tf -dir d:\tf2 >> >> Result: >> Checking bootstrapper version ... >> Updating Installation >> Failed to create directory d:\tf2/orangebox\tf\materials\logo, Win32 Error >> 2 "Th >> e system cannot find the file specified." >> >> Steps tried to resolve problem: >> Completely wiped the d:\tf2 and did a fresh install. The update >> process stops working with an error message at around 70%. >> >> Each time I try this it stops working, and then when I try to run >> hldsupdatetool again it always gives me the same error message about >> not bing able to create the "logo" directory. >> >> Help! >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
as stated several times over the last 1.5-2months on this issues it happens on Windows or Linux servers, any map, stock and modded servers, TF2 and L4D (with reports of it happening on DODS) Chris Oryschak wrote: > I've seen it going to 3rd party maps. > > It's all random, right when you think you have a lockdown on what's > causing it, it will happen on that. I don't think it matters what game > type or map it is, it happens... randomly. > > Sometimes many times in a day, and other days never. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Karl Weckstrom > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:36 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > Agree. It's universal, but I have seen it most when transitioning to > Badwater and Dustbowl. I've also seen it happen with 6 people on the > server with a forced mapchange to forts. > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cc2iscooL > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:59 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > It happens on random maps. We've had it on many different types. It's > a universal issue. > > On 1/6/09, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > >> I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a >> different map? >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger >> Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 >> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >> >> Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem >> > doesn't > >> go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is >> > or > >> should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. >> >> On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom >> > wrote: > >>> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to >>> > know > >> some >> >>> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with >>> > priorities, > >> and >> >>> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen >>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change >>> >>> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve >>> > confirmed > >>> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another >>> > month of > >>> replies. >>> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the >>> > problem > >>> is being worked on and move on. >>> >>> *DUCKS* >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> > archives, > >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> > archives, > >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change
While it is important for people to voice their concerns about the significance of this but I think valve can relate to this ( http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp292/blissend/Ha.jpg) On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:42 PM, SakeFox wrote: > as stated several times over the last 1.5-2months on this issues it > happens on Windows or Linux servers, any map, stock and modded servers, > TF2 and L4D (with reports of it happening on DODS) > > Chris Oryschak wrote: > > I've seen it going to 3rd party maps. > > > > It's all random, right when you think you have a lockdown on what's > > causing it, it will happen on that. I don't think it matters what game > > type or map it is, it happens... randomly. > > > > Sometimes many times in a day, and other days never. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Karl Weckstrom > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 7:36 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > > > Agree. It's universal, but I have seen it most when transitioning to > > Badwater and Dustbowl. I've also seen it happen with 6 people on the > > server with a forced mapchange to forts. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cc2iscooL > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:59 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > > > > It happens on random maps. We've had it on many different types. It's > > a universal issue. > > > > On 1/6/09, Wolfie - Cybernetic wrote: > > > >> I seem to be noticing this mainly on badwater, anyone seeing it on a > >> different map? > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dinger > >> Sent: 04 January 2009 04:18 > >> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > >> > >> Yes it is necessary to discuss this,if we forget it then the problem > >> > > doesn't > > > >> go away,don't like it? Don't read it.And I myself believe that it is > >> > > or > > > >> should be a top priority.This needs to be fixed. > >> > >> On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Karl Weckstrom > >> > > wrote: > > > >>> I'm not one to just accept a bug this serious. I'd really like to > >>> > > know > > > >> some > >> > >>> kind of timeframe for a fix. Valve has never been good with > >>> > > priorities, > > > >> and > >> > >>> I truly think this bug needs to be made a priority. > >>> > >>> -Original Message- > >>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > >>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Laughlen > >>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:29 PM > >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] [TF2] Timeout on Map Change > >>> > >>> Is it really necessary to continue discussing this bug? Valve > >>> > > confirmed > > > >>> that they are working on it. I don't think it needs yet another > >>> > > month of > > > >>> replies. > >>> If you're new to the list, then take this as confirmation that the > >>> > > problem > > > >>> is being worked on and move on. > >>> > >>> *DUCKS* > >>> ___ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>> > > archives, > > > >>> please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>> > > archives, > > > >>> please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >>> > >> ___ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > >> > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, o
