RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Wrong list...You just posted linux tips the hlds_rant list. Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian mu Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:39 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem HD doesn't typically play too important a role (does run better as scsi though), but it is deffo worth just double checking your hd is ok, as I've seen some where its lost dma etc and lags out when writing to the drive. Worthwhile doing an hdparm -tT /dev/hd(a or whatever drive) to get some rough tests, and hdparm /dev/hda to show what flags are enabled on the drive, if not sure just post the responses here and can double check they seem ok ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
HD doesn't typically play too important a role (does run better as scsi though), but it is deffo worth just double checking your hd is ok, as I've seen some where its lost dma etc and lags out when writing to the drive. Worthwhile doing an hdparm -tT /dev/hd(a or whatever drive) to get some rough tests, and hdparm /dev/hda to show what flags are enabled on the drive, if not sure just post the responses here and can double check they seem ok ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
The fact that have multiple threads are running doesn't make an app strictly "multi threaded" in that those threads may execute menial tasks such as the odd DNS lookup as I know is the case for UT. For an app to take real benefit of multi threads it would need for two or more threads to be doing a real quantity of "work" for the majority of the time. e.g. a processing thread per player or connection like a threaded webserver. I believe the SRC server primary processing loop to be done in a single thread hence it gains little. You can get an impression of the work a thread is doing by using Process Explorer available from: www.sysinternals.com Steve / K - Original Message - From: "StealthMode" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In reply to the threads and multithreaded games... I just checked the process manager on our win2k3 std (OT: sounds like some kinda sex virus). Srcds has 3 threads for each instance. Dunno if they are idle threads or not. I find that odd though. Didn't someone state that hlds and srcds were not made for hyperthreading/multithreading? I think the process manager contradicts that statement. But anyway. Good to hear that the reinstall helped snagu. I am curious what the other installs issue was that caused the lag. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
In reply to the threads and multithreaded games... I just checked the process manager on our win2k3 std (OT: sounds like some kinda sex virus). Srcds has 3 threads for each instance. Dunno if they are idle threads or not. I find that odd though. Didn't someone state that hlds and srcds were not made for hyperthreading/multithreading? I think the process manager contradicts that statement. But anyway. Good to hear that the reinstall helped snagu. I am curious what the other installs issue was that caused the lag. StealthMode #LoTgaming www.teamlothosting.com (it is .com .net was a typo) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
maxtor 80 GB 7200 RPM - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem HD speed is the question here. P4 3.0 Ghz 1024MB DDR 400 win2k3. Servers run wc3x. But it should not form a problem as we've done it before. We also tested without plugins, same effect. - Original Message - From: "Whisper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Default HLDS installs? Hardware Config? What is it? On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:09:36 +0100, Saint K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Right, We've changed all servers to win2k3 and everything seems to work quite allright now. No more that weird vnc/lag thingy. Only one more thing. We run 2 32max servers per box. CPU load _never_ go's over 75%, but still its lag spyking on heavy maps such as aztec and inferno. The inet line is 100mbit, so there aint the problem either. Any suggestions ? Saint K. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
HD speed is the question here. > P4 3.0 Ghz 1024MB DDR 400 win2k3. > > Servers run wc3x. But it should not form a problem as we've done it > before. > We also tested without plugins, same effect. > - Original Message - > From: "Whisper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > >> Default HLDS installs? >> >> Hardware Config? What is it? >> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:09:36 +0100, Saint K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> Right, >>> We've changed all servers to win2k3 and everything seems to work quite >>> allright now. >>> No more that weird vnc/lag thingy. >>> >>> Only one more thing. We run 2 32max servers per box. CPU load _never_ >>> go's >>> over 75%, but still its lag spyking on heavy maps such as aztec and >>> inferno. >>> The inet line is 100mbit, so there aint the problem either. >>> >>> Any suggestions ? >>> >>> Saint K. >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this outgoing message. >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 >> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
P4 3.0 Ghz 1024MB DDR 400 win2k3. Servers run wc3x. But it should not form a problem as we've done it before. We also tested without plugins, same effect. - Original Message - From: "Whisper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Default HLDS installs? Hardware Config? What is it? On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:09:36 +0100, Saint K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Right, We've changed all servers to win2k3 and everything seems to work quite allright now. No more that weird vnc/lag thingy. Only one more thing. We run 2 32max servers per box. CPU load _never_ go's over 75%, but still its lag spyking on heavy maps such as aztec and inferno. The inet line is 100mbit, so there aint the problem either. Any suggestions ? Saint K. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Default HLDS installs? Hardware Config? What is it? On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:09:36 +0100, Saint K. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Right, > We've changed all servers to win2k3 and everything seems to work quite > allright now. > No more that weird vnc/lag thingy. > > Only one more thing. We run 2 32max servers per box. CPU load _never_ go's > over 75%, but still its lag spyking on heavy maps such as aztec and inferno. > The inet line is 100mbit, so there aint the problem either. > > Any suggestions ? > > Saint K. > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Right, We've changed all servers to win2k3 and everything seems to work quite allright now. No more that weird vnc/lag thingy. Only one more thing. We run 2 32max servers per box. CPU load _never_ go's over 75%, but still its lag spyking on heavy maps such as aztec and inferno. The inet line is 100mbit, so there aint the problem either. Any suggestions ? Saint K. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
My final words are that changing OS back to w2k server solved my lag problem. Snagu - Original Message - From: "Steven Hartland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Some final words as this is obviously leading no where: - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > A white paper would be a good idea, Also a nice white paper on why > XP is better than 2003 for running game servers would be good as well. No one is saying XP is better it is so a mute point. >> I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have >> versions? I think we are all aware of that :P > Versions would be the version of the programs and libraries you mentioned > above. Thats perfectly obvious, if they where the same they wouldnt be different :P > I mistated this, I was thinking one thing and saying another. If it's > running as a service, then it's not using the Graphics hardware and PCI bus > for any of the graphics, IE the HAL is not used as well, leaving the > resources free for running processes. So why not just minimise them this would produce the same effect according to your logic. >> Actually there are few or no factors which influence an >> application being able to run as a service, ever heard or >> svrany / instsrv? > Being more precise I was referring to applications that require user > interaction to run, using srvany/instsrv will not solve that problem without > adding additional overhead. Some Applications run well sith srvany/instsrv > and some do not. Fortunately most games work well with it enough for us to > use them to a point. However using either of those is not a very good way to > do so as it doesn't close the application properly and can leave system > memory allocation fragments/unclosed filehandles and such. There are other > methods to get game servers running as a service. As far as "using either of those" goes you clearly don't know what they are as instsrv is used to create service's and srvany to run any application as a service ( created by instsvr ) so you could never use instsrv to run a game server as a service as you state. Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. >> You can even run an application that requires user >> interaction as a service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? >> Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves >> about 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only >> two that spring to mind which required user interaction to >> start. But from what your saying all the others can perform >> better simply by running as a service? I think NOT! > I think so, and the reason is because it's assigned to the Service Control > Manager as the parent process that controls them. I think you are under the total missunderstanding that the SCM does anything other than monitor the processes it started, to ensure they are running. It has now effect on sheduling and hence performance what so ever. > I am thinking in the realm of 2-4GB, so we are close there. So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice but waistful :P >> Now back to the real stuff. The question was if it does NOT use it? >> Why that specific question? Because if it did use it you >> would need either a seperate binary per OS or runtime checks >> to make use of it. >> Since we are primarily talking about Fiber's here and given >> the fact that game servers dont even use threads to any great >> extent chances of them making use of and hence gaining >> benefit from them is so small its untrue. Hence the answer >> your looking for was NO plain and simple. > The answer is that even if they do not use it, they benefit from the OS > using it to prioritize the processes it runs which in turn is game servers > in this topic, if it's handed over to SCM in windows or the appropriate > process, or processes in Unix. They would only benifit if they OS ( kernel ) was using significantly less machine resources to do they job it did previously without them. I'd put it to you thats not the case as otherwise MS would be shouting from the houses that 2k3 10% or more quicker at running all your apps. > They don't use it directly, but indirectly, gaining indirect benefits. Also > as was said before, the benefit is not there unless your running more than a > few(2-3 roughly) instances, Also, saying that an application can't benefit > from new features that it doesn't use, but the OS uses on the application, > is not a very sane statement, as the OS controls the application in the > instances we
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
No apologies needed. If you have problems with any of our servers please please come see us #mpukhosting on Quakenet IRC or email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yeah fair point actually, apologies not tactfully put and offtopic, and something am familiar with too.Very hard to judge some sometimes without knowing exactly what else is on the machine. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Yeah fair point actually, apologies not tactfully put and offtopic, and something am familiar with too.Very hard to judge some sometimes without knowing exactly what else is on the machine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So why are multiplay windows servers so intermittently yet frequently laggy as well known by all (linux servers are nice btw..so whats the difference) ? No ones reported an issue, if there is one please let us know. We dont run windows by preference but a number of our dedicated machine customers do and they frequently overload the machine :( That said please let u know any details and we'll look at them for sure. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
> Sorry to continue but there are two many issues left unanswered: > - Original Message - > From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> So why not just minimise them this would produce the same effect > >> according to your logic. > > It would not because doing it that way, your still using > the GDI and > > User resources where as if your running it as a service and > not using > > the Interact With Desktop option your not using them. > > Thats just a pile of rubbish. Start your server under a > service and query its resource handles with a debugger there > is no difference from using that run method to starting it > from the desktop you just cant see the output. If the server > was specificly written to run as a service yes this would be > the case but simple running it as one does not change is > resource requirements on single bit. I did query them, and the GDI and User Resources are at 0, otherwise I wouldn't have stated that they were. > >> Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed > >> filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. > > That is incorrect as your not taking into consideration > applications > > that don't respond well to the Logon/Logoff events when > being ran as a service. > > Wrong! If a app doesnt ignore the WM_ENDSESSION message ( > which is what prompts them to close on logoff ) your app will > just close. > This won't leave any memory / filehandles lying around. Even > if an app crashes windows reclaims those. Not all of the time it doesn't as not all applications follow the proper procedures, or listen to the proper events, in a perfect world they would. Windows can and does have zombie processes occur like *NIX does whether it be from a foreground app, or a service, and using srvany has caused that to happen. > >> So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice > but waistful > >> :P > > 2GB usually, sometimes 3 or 4 depends on the system setup and cpu's. > > Might be waistful to you, but If you a person that wants a memory > > buffer of about 256 to 500mb to account for spikes in > usage, sometimes > > more than 2GB is needed. > > Hmm 100Mb average per you said, 8 servers thats 800Mb you > still got 1.2Gb free on a 2Gb machine. Didn't u say u ran Web > Server edition, as that only supports 2Gb where XP supports > 4Gb, or was that someone else? It was someone else because STD or ENT are the platforms I am reffering to. > >> They would only benifit if they OS ( kernel ) was using > significantly > >> less machine resources to do they job it did previously > without them. > >> I'd put it to you thats not the case as otherwise MS would be > >> shouting from the houses that 2k3 10% or more quicker at > running all > >> your apps. > > If your talking about applications that are basicly > > single/multi-threaded daemons that require little user > interaction and > > running multipe instances of those daemons, then it's a > different story. > > Why? You should be able to answer that. > >> Again so why isn't MS shouting about this nice performance > increase? > > MS seems to be saying that we should all upgrade to windows XP for > > workstations and 2003 for servers, seems like what one > would do with a > > product that's better than and older version. > > Of course they are they want u to spend money but there's no > big advertising campain touting huge performance increases > that I've seen. > > >> They do? Which? ( I'm talking real work threads here not basically > >> idle threads )? UT for example uses a seperatethread to do DNS > >> lookups but since they are so infrequent event doubling the > >> performance ( which your not doing to see ) would have no > persevable > >> effect on the servers performance. > > Doom3 for one. > > Looks like only one of the 3 threads does any work from the > trace I just did ( like in the case of UT ) could be wrong though. 6 threads there actually then after it finishes initialization, it's 4. > >> Yes you are, no one's saying your not but when you take those > >> opinions and give others advice based on them; when they are > >> unsubstansicated its like chinese whispers. People start > to believe > >> its true just because it was said, even though its not actually so. > > I give you the same advice. > > So what wisper did I start? I thought all my conclusions > where backed up by quantifiable sources. Correct me if I'm wong. Most of mine were as well. So we have different sources obviosly. > > I have agreed with your opinion as long as your not running > more than > > 2-3 game servers, when it gets between 4-16 is where you see the > > benefits. So if you're a GSP(they usually run more than 6 > servers per > > box) or just want every bit of performance you can get(Kid with the > > best stuff on the block) server 2003 will give you what you > want, otherwise XP pro will do fine. > > 16 game servers on one machine either thats pong or I'd hate > to have a server on a machine with that many talk
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
So why are multiplay windows servers so intermittently yet frequently laggy as well known by all (linux servers are nice btw..so whats the difference) ? Just interested whya different problem, or a wrong o.s (you may evnen use not xp, but somethings are starting to ring true) when busy (and yes do extensive tests on all as comparisons to how mine should compare)? Comes to the crunch, proof of the pudding.I never used to know why (it was obvious with Barrysworld years back before the later options), but interesting there is a correlation now that appears, as I seriously never assumed you would use anything like XP (still disturbed) so never even factored that into it with comparisons, just assumed it was down to other problems with multiple game hosting. So yes definitely XP may not be a factor if you use it, but wondering what angle you are looking at to improve? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
TAKE THIS SHIT OFFLIST FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!! This is why I didn't respond to this guy's bait. If you want to share dick sizes do it privately and maybe someone here will be interested in the outcome. Talk about HLDS or GTFO! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 9:16 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Sorry to continue but there are two many issues left unanswered: - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> So why not just minimise them this would produce the same >> effect according to your logic. > It would not because doing it that way, your still using the GDI and User > resources where as if your running it as a service and not using the > Interact With Desktop option your not using them. Thats just a pile of rubbish. Start your server under a service and query its resource handles with a debugger there is no difference from using that run method to starting it from the desktop you just cant see the output. If the server was specificly written to run as a service yes this would be the case but simple running it as one does not change is resource requirements on single bit. >> Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed >> filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. > That is incorrect as your not taking into consideration applications that > don't respond well to the Logon/Logoff events when being ran as a service. Wrong! If a app doesnt ignore the WM_ENDSESSION message ( which is what prompts them to close on logoff ) your app will just close. This won't leave any memory / filehandles lying around. Even if an app crashes windows reclaims those. >> So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice but >> waistful :P > 2GB usually, sometimes 3 or 4 depends on the system setup and cpu's. > Might be waistful to you, but If you a person that wants a memory buffer of > about 256 to 500mb to account for spikes in usage, sometimes more than 2GB > is needed. Hmm 100Mb average per you said, 8 servers thats 800Mb you still got 1.2Gb free on a 2Gb machine. Didn't u say u ran Web Server edition, as that only supports 2Gb where XP supports 4Gb, or was that someone else? >> They would only benifit if they OS ( kernel ) was using >> significantly less machine resources to do they job it did >> previously without them. I'd put it to you thats not the case >> as otherwise MS would be shouting from the houses that 2k3 >> 10% or more quicker at running all your apps. > If your talking about applications that are basicly single/multi-threaded > daemons that require little user interaction and running multipe instances > of those daemons, then it's a different story. Why? >> Again so why isn't MS shouting about this nice performance increase? > MS seems to be saying that we should all upgrade to windows XP for > workstations and 2003 for servers, seems like what one would do with a > product that's better than and older version. Of course they are they want u to spend money but there's no big advertising campain touting huge performance increases that I've seen. >> They do? Which? ( I'm talking real work threads here not >> basically idle threads )? UT for example uses a >> seperatethread to do DNS lookups but since they are so >> infrequent event doubling the performance ( which your not >> doing to see ) would have no persevable effect on the servers >> performance. > Doom3 for one. Looks like only one of the 3 threads does any work from the trace I just did ( like in the case of UT ) could be wrong though. >> Yes you are, no one's saying your not but when you take those >> opinions and give others advice based on them; when they are >> unsubstansicated its like chinese whispers. People start to >> believe its true just because it was said, even though its >> not actually so. > I give you the same advice. So what wisper did I start? I thought all my conclusions where backed up by quantifiable sources. Correct me if I'm wong. > I have agreed with your opinion as long as your not running more than 2-3 > game servers, when it gets between 4-16 is where you see the benefits. So if > you're a GSP(they usually run more than 6 servers per box) or just want > every bit of performance you can get(Kid with the best stuff on the block) > server 2003 will give you what you want, otherwise XP pro will do fine. 16 game servers on one machine either thats pong or I'd hate to have a server on a machine with that many talk about lag city. Yes we are a GSP one of the biggest in the UK along with running by far the l
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Sorry to continue but there are two many issues left unanswered: - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So why not just minimise them this would produce the same effect according to your logic. It would not because doing it that way, your still using the GDI and User resources where as if your running it as a service and not using the Interact With Desktop option your not using them. Thats just a pile of rubbish. Start your server under a service and query its resource handles with a debugger there is no difference from using that run method to starting it from the desktop you just cant see the output. If the server was specificly written to run as a service yes this would be the case but simple running it as one does not change is resource requirements on single bit. Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. That is incorrect as your not taking into consideration applications that don't respond well to the Logon/Logoff events when being ran as a service. Wrong! If a app doesnt ignore the WM_ENDSESSION message ( which is what prompts them to close on logoff ) your app will just close. This won't leave any memory / filehandles lying around. Even if an app crashes windows reclaims those. So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice but waistful :P 2GB usually, sometimes 3 or 4 depends on the system setup and cpu's. Might be waistful to you, but If you a person that wants a memory buffer of about 256 to 500mb to account for spikes in usage, sometimes more than 2GB is needed. Hmm 100Mb average per you said, 8 servers thats 800Mb you still got 1.2Gb free on a 2Gb machine. Didn't u say u ran Web Server edition, as that only supports 2Gb where XP supports 4Gb, or was that someone else? They would only benifit if they OS ( kernel ) was using significantly less machine resources to do they job it did previously without them. I'd put it to you thats not the case as otherwise MS would be shouting from the houses that 2k3 10% or more quicker at running all your apps. If your talking about applications that are basicly single/multi-threaded daemons that require little user interaction and running multipe instances of those daemons, then it's a different story. Why? Again so why isn't MS shouting about this nice performance increase? MS seems to be saying that we should all upgrade to windows XP for workstations and 2003 for servers, seems like what one would do with a product that's better than and older version. Of course they are they want u to spend money but there's no big advertising campain touting huge performance increases that I've seen. They do? Which? ( I'm talking real work threads here not basically idle threads )? UT for example uses a seperatethread to do DNS lookups but since they are so infrequent event doubling the performance ( which your not doing to see ) would have no persevable effect on the servers performance. Doom3 for one. Looks like only one of the 3 threads does any work from the trace I just did ( like in the case of UT ) could be wrong though. Yes you are, no one's saying your not but when you take those opinions and give others advice based on them; when they are unsubstansicated its like chinese whispers. People start to believe its true just because it was said, even though its not actually so. I give you the same advice. So what wisper did I start? I thought all my conclusions where backed up by quantifiable sources. Correct me if I'm wong. I have agreed with your opinion as long as your not running more than 2-3 game servers, when it gets between 4-16 is where you see the benefits. So if you're a GSP(they usually run more than 6 servers per box) or just want every bit of performance you can get(Kid with the best stuff on the block) server 2003 will give you what you want, otherwise XP pro will do fine. 16 game servers on one machine either thats pong or I'd hate to have a server on a machine with that many talk about lag city. Yes we are a GSP one of the biggest in the UK along with running by far the largest LAN's in the country. We have tested and continue to test servers across many different platforms ( one of the very few who have conducted controlled tests on game server performance across multiple OS's ). I've seen 0 evidence so far that leads to the conclusion that 2k3 server is significantly better ( as originally claimed ) than XP. There is no doubting that there a large amount of improvements in 2003 over 2000 and also a number of improvements of XP but I've yet to see or experience anything that justifies spending £500 on an OS compared with £90. I'd much rather spend the same money buying another machine which would have very real performance benefits. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirecti
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Some Final words from me as well. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Steven Hartland > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:11 AM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > Some final words as this is obviously leading no where: > > - Original Message - > From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > A white paper would be a good idea, Also a nice white paper > on why XP > > is better than 2003 for running game servers would be good as well. > > No one is saying XP is better it is so a mute point. > > >> I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have versions? I > >> think we are all aware of that :P > > Versions would be the version of the programs and libraries you > > mentioned above. > > Thats perfectly obvious, if they where the same they wouldnt > be different :P > > > I mistated this, I was thinking one thing and saying > another. If it's > > running as a service, then it's not using the Graphics hardware and > > PCI bus for any of the graphics, IE the HAL is not used as well, > > leaving the resources free for running processes. > > So why not just minimise them this would produce the same > effect according to your logic. It would not because doing it that way, your still using the GDI and User resources where as if your running it as a service and not using the Interact With Desktop option your not using them. > >> Actually there are few or no factors which influence an > application > >> being able to run as a service, ever heard or svrany / instsrv? > > Being more precise I was referring to applications that > require user > > interaction to run, using srvany/instsrv will not solve > that problem > > without adding additional overhead. Some Applications run well sith > > srvany/instsrv and some do not. Fortunately most games work > well with > > it enough for us to use them to a point. However using > either of those > > is not a very good way to do so as it doesn't close the application > > properly and can leave system memory allocation fragments/unclosed > > filehandles and such. There are other methods to get game > servers running as a service. > > As far as "using either of those" goes you clearly don't know > what they are as instsrv is used to create service's and > srvany to run any application as a service ( created by > instsvr ) so you could never use instsrv to run a game server > as a service as you state. Actually you can use instsrv to run a game server. I have done so myself. > > Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed > filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. That is incorrect as your not taking into consideration applications that don't respond well to the Logon/Logoff events when being ran as a service. > >> You can even run an application that requires user > interaction as a > >> service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? > >> Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves about > >> 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only two > that spring > >> to mind which required user interaction to start. But from > what your > >> saying all the others can perform better simply by running as a > >> service? I think NOT! > > I think so, and the reason is because it's assigned to the Service > > Control Manager as the parent process that controls them. > > I think you are under the total missunderstanding that the > SCM does anything other than monitor the processes it > started, to ensure they are running. It has now effect on > sheduling and hence performance what so ever. > > > > I am thinking in the realm of 2-4GB, so we are close there. > > So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice but > waistful :P 2GB usually, sometimes 3 or 4 depends on the system setup and cpu's. Might be waistful to you, but If you a person that wants a memory buffer of about 256 to 500mb to account for spikes in usage, sometimes more than 2GB is needed. > >> Now back to the real stuff. The question was if it does NOT use it? > >> Why that specific question? Because if it did use it you > would need > >> either a seperate binary per OS or runtime checks to make > use of it. > >> Since we are primarily talking about Fiber's here and > given the fact > >> that game servers dont even use threads to any great > extent chances > >> of them making use of and hence gaining benefit from them > is so small
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Some final words as this is obviously leading no where: - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A white paper would be a good idea, Also a nice white paper on why XP is better than 2003 for running game servers would be good as well. No one is saying XP is better it is so a mute point. I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have versions? I think we are all aware of that :P Versions would be the version of the programs and libraries you mentioned above. Thats perfectly obvious, if they where the same they wouldnt be different :P I mistated this, I was thinking one thing and saying another. If it's running as a service, then it's not using the Graphics hardware and PCI bus for any of the graphics, IE the HAL is not used as well, leaving the resources free for running processes. So why not just minimise them this would produce the same effect according to your logic. Actually there are few or no factors which influence an application being able to run as a service, ever heard or svrany / instsrv? Being more precise I was referring to applications that require user interaction to run, using srvany/instsrv will not solve that problem without adding additional overhead. Some Applications run well sith srvany/instsrv and some do not. Fortunately most games work well with it enough for us to use them to a point. However using either of those is not a very good way to do so as it doesn't close the application properly and can leave system memory allocation fragments/unclosed filehandles and such. There are other methods to get game servers running as a service. As far as "using either of those" goes you clearly don't know what they are as instsrv is used to create service's and srvany to run any application as a service ( created by instsvr ) so you could never use instsrv to run a game server as a service as you state. Using svrany will never leave memory allocated or unclosed filehandles, dont know where u got this impression. You can even run an application that requires user interaction as a service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves about 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only two that spring to mind which required user interaction to start. But from what your saying all the others can perform better simply by running as a service? I think NOT! I think so, and the reason is because it's assigned to the Service Control Manager as the parent process that controls them. I think you are under the total missunderstanding that the SCM does anything other than monitor the processes it started, to ensure they are running. It has now effect on sheduling and hence performance what so ever. I am thinking in the realm of 2-4GB, so we are close there. So you put 4Gb of ram in your game server machines, nice but waistful :P Now back to the real stuff. The question was if it does NOT use it? Why that specific question? Because if it did use it you would need either a seperate binary per OS or runtime checks to make use of it. Since we are primarily talking about Fiber's here and given the fact that game servers dont even use threads to any great extent chances of them making use of and hence gaining benefit from them is so small its untrue. Hence the answer your looking for was NO plain and simple. The answer is that even if they do not use it, they benefit from the OS using it to prioritize the processes it runs which in turn is game servers in this topic, if it's handed over to SCM in windows or the appropriate process, or processes in Unix. They would only benifit if they OS ( kernel ) was using significantly less machine resources to do they job it did previously without them. I'd put it to you thats not the case as otherwise MS would be shouting from the houses that 2k3 10% or more quicker at running all your apps. They don't use it directly, but indirectly, gaining indirect benefits. Also as was said before, the benefit is not there unless your running more than a few(2-3 roughly) instances, Also, saying that an application can't benefit from new features that it doesn't use, but the OS uses on the application, is not a very sane statement, as the OS controls the application in the instances we are talking about. As far as my ability to use analagies, I don't think there is a problem with it at all. Again so why isn't MS shouting about this nice performance increase? Also, not all game servers are single threaded, some use between 2-6 threads. They do? Which? ( I'm talking real work threads here not basically idle threads )? UT for example uses a seperatethread to do DNS lookups but since they are so infrequent event doubling the performance ( which your not doing to see ) would have no persevable effect on the servers performance. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it and your welcome to think what you like as I am. Yes you are, no one's saying your not but when you take those opini
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
> >>> I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's > >>> kernel, > >>> 2003 was optimized with a different set of parameters. > >> The source for this information? Or just speculation? > > Microsoft and device driver engineers as well. > And the link to white paper on this subject is? Sorry, none that I know of. I was under the understanding that it is basic knowledge. As for the engineers, I can't show you a link for obvious reasons, I apologize for bringing them into the discussion since I can't produce qoutes from them. > > Right regular redhat vs enterprise. Windows XP vs 2003. > > If you tweek it, you can give more priority to userland or > kernel mode > > as well as network or file. > You can tweak things to do a lot of things, what tweaks do > you know have been made that are relavent to running game > servers? Again a nice white paper would be good. A white paper would be a good idea, Also a nice white paper on why XP is better than 2003 for running game servers would be good as well. > >> You still havent give a reason why a game server run as > service runs > >> "better"? > >> Does it run under a different part of the OS? > >> Nar! > > True, if your generalizing it. > > Each OS has it's own version. > >> Does it have a different sheduler? > >> Nar! > > True, if your generalizing it. > > Each OS has it's own version. > I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have > versions? I think we are all aware of that :P Versions would be the version of the programs and libraries you mentioned above. > >> Does it run as a different priority? > >> Quite possibly but there's nothing to stop you doing this with a > >> foreground app. > > Yes it can. Why would you want it to use your Gui resources > instead of > > running in the background not using any at all. > So you think running an app as a service automatically > removes any gui calls it makes hence uses less resources and > CPU? Hmm let me just go laugh in the corner for a while! I mistated this, I was thinking one thing and saying another. If it's running as a service, then it's not using the Graphics hardware and PCI bus for any of the graphics, IE the HAL is not used as well, leaving the resources free for running processes. > >> You cant magiclly make an application perform better simplely by > >> running it as a service. If this where true we would run > everything > >> as services wouldnt we? > > No one said you could make it magically happen. Running > something as a > > service depends many factors such as can it be ran without > loading a > > gui and requiring no user interaction. > Actually there are few or no factors which influence an > application being able to run as a service, ever heard or > svrany / instsrv? Being more precise I was referring to applications that require user interaction to run, using srvany/instsrv will not solve that problem without adding additional overhead. Some Applications run well sith srvany/instsrv and some do not. Fortunately most games work well with it enough for us to use them to a point. However using either of those is not a very good way to do so as it doesn't close the application properly and can leave system memory allocation fragments/unclosed filehandles and such. There are other methods to get game servers running as a service. > You can even run an application that requires user > interaction as a service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? > Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves > about 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only > two that spring to mind which required user interaction to > start. But from what your saying all the others can perform > better simply by running as a service? I think NOT! I think so, and the reason is because it's assigned to the Service Control Manager as the parent process that controls them. > >>> SQL server does need huge memory support, and running > multiple game > >>> servers you need it as well. > >> If your game servers need multi GB's of memory I suggest there's > >> something wrong somewhere. > > Thanks for the suggestion, but nothing is wrong when your running > > multiple processes that each require and avg of 100MB of memory. > I think we have a very different idea about huge amounts of > memory a dual CPU machine with 2GB ( small amount of ram ) > will happily run all the servers the CPU can handle and still > have loads left for disk cache etc. So large amounts of RAM > such as that used on a good size DB machine e.g. 4+GB is just > not required on a game server. I am thinking in the realm of 2-4GB, so we are close there. > >>> Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself > will use > >>> that model to optimize the processes it is running, including > >>> multiple gameservers. > >> So an application can benifit from the existence of an API > it doesnt > >> use directly or indirectly hmm perhaps not :P > > It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank GOD All of you guys need to trim your mails. I remember earlier when I myself was criticized about the trimming. Just passing on the wisdom. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Thank GOD -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:10 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's kernel, >>> 2003 was optimized with a different set of parameters. >> The source for this information? Or just speculation? > Microsoft and device driver engineers as well. And the link to white paper on this subject is? > Right regular redhat vs enterprise. Windows XP vs 2003. > If you tweek it, you can give more priority to userland or kernel mode > as well as network or file. You can tweak things to do a lot of things, what tweaks do you know have been made that are relavent to running game servers? Again a nice white paper would be good. >> You still havent give a reason why a game server run as service >> runs "better"? >> Does it run under a different part of the OS? >> Nar! > > True, if your generalizing it. > Each OS has it's own version. > >> Does it have a different sheduler? >> Nar! > > True, if your generalizing it. > Each OS has it's own version. I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have versions? I think we are all aware of that :P >> Does it run as a different priority? >> Quite possibly but there's nothing to stop you doing this with >> a foreground app. > > Yes it can. Why would you want it to use your Gui resources instead of > running in the background not using any at all. So you think running an app as a service automatically removes any gui calls it makes hence uses less resources and CPU? Hmm let me just go laugh in the corner for a while! >> You cant magiclly make an application perform better simplely >> by running it as a service. If this where true we would run >> everything as services wouldnt we? > > No one said you could make it magically happen. Running something as a > service depends many factors such as can it be ran without loading a gui > and requiring no user interaction. Actually there are few or no factors which influence an application being able to run as a service, ever heard or svrany / instsrv? You can even run an application that requires user interaction as a service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves about 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only two that spring to mind which required user interaction to start. But from what your saying all the others can perform better simply by running as a service? I think NOT! >>> SQL server does need huge memory support, and running multiple >>> game servers you need it as well. >> If your game servers need multi GB's of memory I suggest >> there's something wrong somewhere. > Thanks for the suggestion, but nothing is wrong when your running multiple > processes that each require and avg of 100MB of memory. I think we have a very different idea about huge amounts of memory a dual CPU machine with 2GB ( small amount of ram ) will happily run all the servers the CPU can handle and still have loads left for disk cache etc. So large amounts of RAM such as that used on a good size DB machine e.g. 4+GB is just not required on a game server. >>> Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself will use >>> that model to optimize the processes it is running, including multiple >>> gameservers. >> So an application can benifit from the existence of an API it >> doesnt use directly or indirectly hmm perhaps not :P > It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that > prioritizes the child process does. It can if it does use it directly as > well. First I'll hilight a few things: >> doesnt use DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY > It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that > prioritizes the child process does. 1. Go look up indirectly in the dictionary. 2. The sheduler ( I assume thats what your talking about even though you dont seem to know the correct term for it ) is not a parent process in the real sence of the term otherwise you would see it in the process tree. Now back to the real stuff. The question was if it does NOT use it? Why that specific question? Because if it did use it you would need either a seperate binary per OS or runtime checks to make use of it. Since we are primarily talking about Fiber's here and given the fact that game servers dont even use threads to any great extent chances of them making use of and hence gaining benefit from them is so small its untrue. Hence the answer your looking for w
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's kernel, 2003 was optimized with a different set of parameters. The source for this information? Or just speculation? Microsoft and device driver engineers as well. And the link to white paper on this subject is? Right regular redhat vs enterprise. Windows XP vs 2003. If you tweek it, you can give more priority to userland or kernel mode as well as network or file. You can tweak things to do a lot of things, what tweaks do you know have been made that are relavent to running game servers? Again a nice white paper would be good. You still havent give a reason why a game server run as service runs "better"? Does it run under a different part of the OS? Nar! True, if your generalizing it. Each OS has it's own version. Does it have a different sheduler? Nar! True, if your generalizing it. Each OS has it's own version. I cant see what you are trying to say here; OS's have versions? I think we are all aware of that :P Does it run as a different priority? Quite possibly but there's nothing to stop you doing this with a foreground app. Yes it can. Why would you want it to use your Gui resources instead of running in the background not using any at all. So you think running an app as a service automatically removes any gui calls it makes hence uses less resources and CPU? Hmm let me just go laugh in the corner for a while! You cant magiclly make an application perform better simplely by running it as a service. If this where true we would run everything as services wouldnt we? No one said you could make it magically happen. Running something as a service depends many factors such as can it be ran without loading a gui and requiring no user interaction. Actually there are few or no factors which influence an application being able to run as a service, ever heard or svrany / instsrv? You can even run an application that requires user interaction as a service, "Allow interaction with desktop" anyone? Even if this where a restriction ( which it isnt ) it leaves about 99.99% of servers out there; BHD and JO are the only two that spring to mind which required user interaction to start. But from what your saying all the others can perform better simply by running as a service? I think NOT! SQL server does need huge memory support, and running multiple game servers you need it as well. If your game servers need multi GB's of memory I suggest there's something wrong somewhere. Thanks for the suggestion, but nothing is wrong when your running multiple processes that each require and avg of 100MB of memory. I think we have a very different idea about huge amounts of memory a dual CPU machine with 2GB ( small amount of ram ) will happily run all the servers the CPU can handle and still have loads left for disk cache etc. So large amounts of RAM such as that used on a good size DB machine e.g. 4+GB is just not required on a game server. Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself will use that model to optimize the processes it is running, including multiple gameservers. So an application can benifit from the existence of an API it doesnt use directly or indirectly hmm perhaps not :P It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that prioritizes the child process does. It can if it does use it directly as well. First I'll hilight a few things: doesnt use DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that prioritizes the child process does. 1. Go look up indirectly in the dictionary. 2. The sheduler ( I assume thats what your talking about even though you dont seem to know the correct term for it ) is not a parent process in the real sence of the term otherwise you would see it in the process tree. Now back to the real stuff. The question was if it does NOT use it? Why that specific question? Because if it did use it you would need either a seperate binary per OS or runtime checks to make use of it. Since we are primarily talking about Fiber's here and given the fact that game servers dont even use threads to any great extent chances of them making use of and hence gaining benefit from them is so small its untrue. Hence the answer your looking for was NO plain and simple. That is exactly my point, there is a benefit, but it is like comparing a good Nvidia card that costs 150 to the newest one that costs 400-500, what fits your need and how much will you benefit from it in the long run. Which is also why if your running 1 or 2 game servers, you really will not see a benefit, but if your running more, you will. No its like running a vi or a command prompt on your new $500 GFX card thats got loads of bells and whistles for doing 3D work but your text editor could well run better on your old $150 card e.g. compare a Matrox Millenium with a Geforce 6800 you may well find the old "simple" millenium runs it quicker or as near as dam it the same speed as none o
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
> > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's kernel, >> 2003 >> was optimized with a different set of parameters. > > The source for this information? Or just speculation? > Microsoft and device driver engineers as well. >> I didn't say process priority although it does pertain to it. I stated >> Optimization, ergo memory support/threading support/network support. It >> is >> a know fact that you can recompile the *BSD/Linux Kernels to change the >> way the system prioritizes certain operations, ergo a customized Kernel. > > It is? Yes you an tweek a unix kernel to do purely a network IO role > or purely a user application role but that doesnt give one process more > priority over another and these are very specific cases. In general > if you look at an out the box install of Redhat for workstation and for > server they will be running the same kernel until enterprise edition stuff > that is. > Right regular redhat vs enterprise. Windows XP vs 2003. If you tweek it, you can give more priority to userland or kernel mode as well as network or file. >> As far as no benefit to a game server machine, if your running multiple >> gameservers on one box, you do benefit from the differences if your >> running them as a system service and having the server optimized for >> running background services, and using the system cache. And by your >> stating you don't run anything else, your missing the fact that your >> running a lot more than a gameserver, such as the Disk I/O >> Subsystem/Network I/O Subsystem among other things. > > You still havent give a reason why a game server run as service > runs "better"? > Does it run under a different part of the OS? > Nar! True, if your generalizing it. Each OS has it's own version. > Does it have a different sheduler? > Nar! True, if your generalizing it. Each OS has it's own version. > Does it run as a different priority? > Quite possibly but there's nothing to stop you doing this with > a foreground app. Yes it can. Why would you want it to use your Gui resources instead of running in the background not using any at all. > You cant magiclly make an application perform better simplely > by running it as a service. If this where true we would run > everything as services wouldnt we? No one said you could make it magically happen. Running something as a service depends many factors such as can it be ran without loading a gui and requiring no user interaction. >> SQL server does need huge memory support, and running multiple game >> servers you need it as well. > > If your game servers need multi GB's of memory I suggest > there's something wrong somewhere. > Thanks for the suggestion, but nothing is wrong when your running multiple processes that each require and avg of 100MB of memory. >> Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself will use that >> model to optimize the processes it is running, including multiple >> gameservers. > > So an application can benifit from the existence of an API it > doesnt use directly or indirectly hmm perhaps not :P > It can, if it doesn't use it directly and a parent process that prioritizes the child process does. It can if it does use it directly as well. >> That is exactly my point, there is a benefit, but it is like comparing a >> good Nvidia card that costs 150 to the newest one that costs 400-500, >> what >> fits your need and how much will you benefit from it in the long run. >> Which is also why if your running 1 or 2 game servers, you really will >> not >> see a benefit, but if your running more, you will. > > No its like running a vi or a command prompt on your new > $500 GFX card thats got loads of bells and whistles for > doing 3D work but your text editor could well run better > on your old $150 card >e.g. compare a Matrox Millenium with a Geforce 6800 > you may well find the old "simple" millenium runs it quicker > or as near as dam it the same speed as none of your fancy > 3D features are ever used. > > Steve / K Does VI use 100+ mb of memory per instance and are you running 3 or 4 Vi's. at the same time that are reading and writing to the disk and over the network while doing geometrical 3D calculations and supporting multiple network connectios. If so, thats one hell of a VI version, I want that one. > > ===This e.mail is private and > confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom > it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited > from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any > information contained in it. > > In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please > telephone (023) 8024 3137 > or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please vi
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's kernel, 2003 was optimized with a different set of parameters. The source for this information? Or just speculation? No it's 2K->XP->XP 2K->XP->2003 We both say 2k3 was derived from xp which was derived from 2k so no problems there :) I didn't say process priority although it does pertain to it. I stated Optimization, ergo memory support/threading support/network support. It is a know fact that you can recompile the *BSD/Linux Kernels to change the way the system prioritizes certain operations, ergo a customized Kernel. It is? Yes you an tweek a unix kernel to do purely a network IO role or purely a user application role but that doesnt give one process more priority over another and these are very specific cases. In general if you look at an out the box install of Redhat for workstation and for server they will be running the same kernel until enterprise edition stuff that is. As far as no benefit to a game server machine, if your running multiple gameservers on one box, you do benefit from the differences if your running them as a system service and having the server optimized for running background services, and using the system cache. And by your stating you don't run anything else, your missing the fact that your running a lot more than a gameserver, such as the Disk I/O Subsystem/Network I/O Subsystem among other things. You still havent give a reason why a game server run as service runs "better"? Does it run under a different part of the OS? Nar! Does it have a different sheduler? Nar! Does it run as a different priority? Quite possibly but there's nothing to stop you doing this with a foreground app. You cant magiclly make an application perform better simplely by running it as a service. If this where true we would run everything as services wouldnt we? SQL server does need huge memory support, and running multiple game servers you need it as well. If your game servers need multi GB's of memory I suggest there's something wrong somewhere. Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself will use that model to optimize the processes it is running, including multiple gameservers. So an application can benifit from the existence of an API it doesnt use directly or indirectly hmm perhaps not :P That is exactly my point, there is a benefit, but it is like comparing a good Nvidia card that costs 150 to the newest one that costs 400-500, what fits your need and how much will you benefit from it in the long run. Which is also why if your running 1 or 2 game servers, you really will not see a benefit, but if your running more, you will. No its like running a vi or a command prompt on your new $500 GFX card thats got loads of bells and whistles for doing 3D work but your text editor could well run better on your old $150 card e.g. compare a Matrox Millenium with a Geforce 6800 you may well find the old "simple" millenium runs it quicker or as near as dam it the same speed as none of your fancy 3D features are ever used. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
> - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> If your running 1 server, windows XP would be the way to go, if your >> running more than one, Windows 2003 would be the way to go because it's >> kernel is built for running multiple services with the threading, it can >> handle it much better than XP because the kernel is optimized for that >> kind of use where as XP Pro is more for Graphics and code compiling. > > Although its has been tweeked, they where both designed from the ground > up to deal with multiple services with threading. XP was not altered to > give > better GFX I'm afraid thats just rubbish. It has good driver support yes, > but as servers dont run GFX that doesnt even come into the equation. > I didn't say XP was altered. XP is optmized that way via It's kernel, 2003 was optimized with a different set of parameters. >> Keep in mind, while they did start out from the windows 2000 codebase, >> they >> diverged when Windows XP was released in order to make the Windows 2003 >> platform more stable and Enterprise ready to compete against Unix which >> it >> is actually doing very well from the benchmarks posted around the net. > > Its more like 2k -> XP -> 2k3 not: > 2k -> XP > 2k -> 2k3 > No it's 2K->XP->XP 2K->XP->2003 >> Also, while the forground and background has been around, it's the >> Kernel >> that determines the Optimization, unfortunately, you can't rebuild your >> kernel in windows like you can for *bsd/linux which means, your limited >> to >> the features the kernel your running can support. > > Since when have you had to recompile a kernel to set process priority? > The option is even there in the gui just like in 2k3 ( although it has > finer > grained support ). The only reason for the setting in the first place was > to > prevent admins running applications / utilities on the glass from > degrading > service performance. For game server machine you dont run anything > else hence there is no contention hence there is no real need for the > setting. > I didn't say process priority although it does pertain to it. I stated Optimization, ergo memory support/threading support/network support. It is a know fact that you can recompile the *BSD/Linux Kernels to change the way the system prioritizes certain operations, ergo a customized Kernel. As far as no benefit to a game server machine, if your running multiple gameservers on one box, you do benefit from the differences if your running them as a system service and having the server optimized for running background services, and using the system cache. And by your stating you don't run anything else, your missing the fact that your running a lot more than a gameserver, such as the Disk I/O Subsystem/Network I/O Subsystem among other things. >> If you do a Diff of the kernel files, you will see that the 2003 >> Standard >> Versions are bigger than XP Pro versions. > > Yes 2k3 is newer it has more features but none that help it be a > significantly > better game server platform ( or none that anyones come up with yet ). > >> The reasons are fairly obvious. It comes down to preference, costs and >> how >> much robustness you want in your system. I know why I use windows 2003 >> instead of Windows XP for a MS SQL server, it's fairly obvious. YOu can >> use it or not, thats your perogative, but they are not the same by far. > > SQL server is not really the same; it needs huge memory support, more CPU > power read > 2 CPU's etc so will definitely benefit from Server. None of > these factors affect a simple game server. If you think they do your > kidding > yourself I'm afraid. SQL server does need huge memory support, and running multiple game servers you need it as well. > When it all boils down to it people, game servers as stated by a number > of folks now are simple. They primarily single threaded apps, they don't > use huge amounts of ram. They just require good network / disk IO and > a clean scheduler. XP has all of these! Granted so does 2k3 but your key > differences in UMA, advanced fibre's, optimised services, large memory > support, 2 > CPU support in 2k3 over XP you game server just doesn't > use. > > If it doesn't use them it cant benefit from them. I think we all > acknowledge > that 2k3 is newer and will have some optimisation under the hood which > MAY slightly benefit all processes but conversely it also has extra > security checks etc so of those benefits what your are likely to see is > next to nothing I would hypothesize. Actually, wether it uses the API's or not, Windows itself will use that model to optimize the processes it is running, including multiple gameservers. > Again if someone can come up with a real feature that 2k3 has which > will enable it to run GAME servers better, great but the question is > does that extra performance justify the extra cost? > > Steve / K > That is exactly my point, there is a benefit, but it is like comparing a good Nvidia card that costs 150 to the n
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If your running 1 server, windows XP would be the way to go, if your running more than one, Windows 2003 would be the way to go because it's kernel is built for running multiple services with the threading, it can handle it much better than XP because the kernel is optimized for that kind of use where as XP Pro is more for Graphics and code compiling. Although its has been tweeked, they where both designed from the ground up to deal with multiple services with threading. XP was not altered to give better GFX I'm afraid thats just rubbish. It has good driver support yes, but as servers dont run GFX that doesnt even come into the equation. Keep in mind, while they did start out from the windows 2000 codebase, they diverged when Windows XP was released in order to make the Windows 2003 platform more stable and Enterprise ready to compete against Unix which it is actually doing very well from the benchmarks posted around the net. Its more like 2k -> XP -> 2k3 not: 2k -> XP 2k -> 2k3 Also, while the forground and background has been around, it's the Kernel that determines the Optimization, unfortunately, you can't rebuild your kernel in windows like you can for *bsd/linux which means, your limited to the features the kernel your running can support. Since when have you had to recompile a kernel to set process priority? The option is even there in the gui just like in 2k3 ( although it has finer grained support ). The only reason for the setting in the first place was to prevent admins running applications / utilities on the glass from degrading service performance. For game server machine you dont run anything else hence there is no contention hence there is no real need for the setting. If you do a Diff of the kernel files, you will see that the 2003 Standard Versions are bigger than XP Pro versions. Yes 2k3 is newer it has more features but none that help it be a significantly better game server platform ( or none that anyones come up with yet ). The reasons are fairly obvious. It comes down to preference, costs and how much robustness you want in your system. I know why I use windows 2003 instead of Windows XP for a MS SQL server, it's fairly obvious. YOu can use it or not, thats your perogative, but they are not the same by far. SQL server is not really the same; it needs huge memory support, more CPU power read > 2 CPU's etc so will definitely benefit from Server. None of these factors affect a simple game server. If you think they do your kidding yourself I'm afraid. When it all boils down to it people, game servers as stated by a number of folks now are simple. They primarily single threaded apps, they don't use huge amounts of ram. They just require good network / disk IO and a clean scheduler. XP has all of these! Granted so does 2k3 but your key differences in UMA, advanced fibre's, optimised services, large memory support, 2 > CPU support in 2k3 over XP you game server just doesn't use. If it doesn't use them it cant benefit from them. I think we all acknowledge that 2k3 is newer and will have some optimisation under the hood which MAY slightly benefit all processes but conversely it also has extra security checks etc so of those benefits what your are likely to see is next to nothing I would hypothesize. Again if someone can come up with a real feature that 2k3 has which will enable it to run GAME servers better, great but the question is does that extra performance justify the extra cost? Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
If your running 1 server, windows XP would be the way to go, if your running more than one, Windows 2003 would be the way to go because it's kernel is built for running multiple services with the threading, it can handle it much better than XP because the kernel is optimized for that kind of use where as XP Pro is more for Graphics and code compiling. Keep in mind, while they did start out from the windows 2000 codebase, they diverged when Windows XP was released in order to make the Windows 2003 platform more stable and Enterprise ready to compete against Unix which it is actually doing very well from the benchmarks posted around the net. Also, while the forground and background has been around, it's the Kernel that determines the Optimization, unfortunately, you can't rebuild your kernel in windows like you can for *bsd/linux which means, your limited to the features the kernel your running can support. If you do a Diff of the kernel files, you will see that the 2003 Standard Versions are bigger than XP Pro versions. The reasons are fairly obvious. It comes down to preference, costs and how much robustness you want in your system. I know why I use windows 2003 instead of Windows XP for a MS SQL server, it's fairly obvious. YOu can use it or not, thats your perogative, but they are not the same by far. > Thanks for the links there Chance appreciated. Unfortunately unless I > missed > something while reading them I still see nothing that 2k3 server has over > XP > that can help in running a game server. Did I miss something? > > The background and foreground thing has been in NT kernel since way way > back and hence also available in XP. > > Steve / K > - Original Message - > From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:32 PM > Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > >> Here are 2 to start with. And yes the Numa is only available with >> Enterprise >> or higher. With STD you don't get the Numa part, but you do get most of >> the >> improvements >> >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/03/06/WindowsServer2003/default.asp >> x >> >> Base feature comparison. >> http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winserver2003_editions.asp >> >> This is about the background and foreground applications. >> Basicly it tells you that the server is either optimized to give >> services >> the higher priority, or to give everything the same priority within it's >> class. >> http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/nt5.shtml >> >> I personaly prefer OpenBSD for everything, but I also have to know >> windows >> very well for my day job, so I spend time digging up these tidbits about >> differences. > > > > ===This e.mail is private and > confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom > it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited > from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any > information contained in it. > > In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please > telephone (023) 8024 3137 > or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Thanks for ur replies every one! Ive just had contact with our host and we're gonna try a couple of things. They will replace the NIC of one box and do a fresh XP install. On the second box will be same config as now with win2k3 installed. This way we can see if anything makes some differance in fixing our problem. We just got 3 more servers showing exact same problem (same configs all). So i hope tonight we will finally find some solution. Oh, and keep the discussion going about XP vs 2k3, i find it a intresting read :) Cheers! Saint K. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Thanks for the links there Chance appreciated. Unfortunately unless I missed something while reading them I still see nothing that 2k3 server has over XP that can help in running a game server. Did I miss something? The background and foreground thing has been in NT kernel since way way back and hence also available in XP. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:32 PM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem Here are 2 to start with. And yes the Numa is only available with Enterprise or higher. With STD you don't get the Numa part, but you do get most of the improvements http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/03/06/WindowsServer2003/default.asp x Base feature comparison. http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winserver2003_editions.asp This is about the background and foreground applications. Basicly it tells you that the server is either optimized to give services the higher priority, or to give everything the same priority within it's class. http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/nt5.shtml I personaly prefer OpenBSD for everything, but I also have to know windows very well for my day job, so I spend time digging up these tidbits about differences. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Here are 2 to start with. And yes the Numa is only available with Enterprise or higher. With STD you don't get the Numa part, but you do get most of the improvements http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/03/06/WindowsServer2003/default.asp x Base feature comparison. http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winserver2003_editions.asp This is about the background and foreground applications. Basicly it tells you that the server is either optimized to give services the higher priority, or to give everything the same priority within it's class. http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/nt5.shtml I personaly prefer OpenBSD for everything, but I also have to know windows very well for my day job, so I spend time digging up these tidbits about differences. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:49 AM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Curious there Chance why would running it as a service have any effect on its resource allocation / scheduling apart from the effect that the good old background / foreground setting in windows does. I cant see any logic in MS coding in something like that and then only letting "services" benefit just doesn't seem to make sense to me, not that MS make sense most the time :P If you have the tech article references I'd really love to read up. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The NUMA helps it a lot as well as the per cpu thread pooling and > scheduling that's tied into it. 2000 does't have NUMA, not even the > Datacenter version which I have. Keep in mind as as server OS, the > servers must be ran as a service to get the benefit from the resource > allocation and scheduling from either windows 2000 or 2003. > A lot of people run them in cmd boxes not realizing that it takes away > from the priority and memory/resource management, unless you have > boost foreground application enabled, then they get almost the same priority. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Curious there Chance why would running it as a service have any effect on its resource allocation / scheduling apart from the effect that the good old background / foreground setting in windows does. I cant see any logic in MS coding in something like that and then only letting "services" benefit just doesn't seem to make sense to me, not that MS make sense most the time :P If you have the tech article references I'd really love to read up. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The NUMA helps it a lot as well as the per cpu thread pooling and scheduling that's tied into it. 2000 does't have NUMA, not even the Datacenter version which I have. Keep in mind as as server OS, the servers must be ran as a service to get the benefit from the resource allocation and scheduling from either windows 2000 or 2003. A lot of people run them in cmd boxes not realizing that it takes away from the priority and memory/resource management, unless you have boost foreground application enabled, then they get almost the same priority. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
There's nothing friction about it. It all information about running servers. If you don't want to be educated then don't read its quite simple. I for one like to find out new things and there are definitely people on this list which can teach me that. Conversely there are things I know that others can learn from. I don't like to see people being given bad information ( its worse than no information at all ) so when I see this happening I will try to impart what knowledge I have on the subject. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Lackatee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Boy! Your on a self righteous extravaganza today Steve. Way to Go! Quit spamming our inbox's with this crap.. What do you gain from all this friction? This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Curious to read up on the details on the scheduler optimisations, Chance do you have a link to the relevant tech articles. I know NUMA has no effect for 9%% of machines read its only commonly available on Multi processor Opterons and other high end configurations that I'm aware of. This is due to the Opterons use of Multiple Memory interconnects so they have the concept of "local" CPU memory. Its my understanding this is actually only available in 2k3 Enterprise amd Data Center editions but I might be wrong. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/evaluation/overview/enterprise.mspx Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steven, the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
The NUMA helps it a lot as well as the per cpu thread pooling and scheduling that's tied into it. 2000 does't have NUMA, not even the Datacenter version which I have. Keep in mind as as server OS, the servers must be ran as a service to get the benefit from the resource allocation and scheduling from either windows 2000 or 2003. A lot of people run them in cmd boxes not realizing that it takes away from the priority and memory/resource management, unless you have boost foreground application enabled, then they get almost the same priority. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Fencik Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:04 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem Good info. How is server 2k3 superior to server 2000 for running hl servers? Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chance Sullivan Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:35 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem Steven, the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process > priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Any plugins? Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Snagu Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:51 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem "Nice" to see that here is nothing changed, somebody asking about lag problem and you start arguing about xp / w2k3 server. That's why this mailinglist is from ass. I have still lag problem with DoD / w2k3 server and I will step backwards to w2k server, because I haven't found any solutions to cut the lag. Problems is that 28/28 DoD server runs smoothly about halfday and then it starts to lag. Latency start to run between 11 -250 ms, after rebooting HLDS process, everything works again about halfday. Yes, there is plenty of recources free in server, CPU load never over 85%, even in peaks and more than 2Gb RAM free. I tried to bind processes for different CPU's and network cards, reinstalled (clean install) HLDS / DoD, nothing helps. I run exactly same configuration earlier in w2k server without any problems. So I'm going to change OS back to w2k and hope that helps. Snagu - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem > Steven, > the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and > multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded > smp > more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to > mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > - Original Message - > From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process >> priorities > > Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional > priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. > >Steve / K > > > > > This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and > the > person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, > the > recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise > disseminating it or any information contained in it. > > In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please > telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Windows server 2k3 has an option to give higher priority to applications or to system services. I think this option is mainly to distinguish between the role of terminal servers and "traditional" servers. Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process > priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Good info. How is server 2k3 superior to server 2000 for running hl servers? Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chance Sullivan Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:35 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem Steven, the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process > priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
My question to you is are you running it in the foreground in a dos box, or as a windows 2003 service. If you run it as a service, it gets the priority it needs as they changed how windows manages processes a bit in windows 2003 to say the least. Oh and I wouldn't bind it to cpu's because that will actually degrade performance during disk reads and writes from the tests I have done. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Snagu Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:51 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem "Nice" to see that here is nothing changed, somebody asking about lag problem and you start arguing about xp / w2k3 server. That's why this mailinglist is from ass. I have still lag problem with DoD / w2k3 server and I will step backwards to w2k server, because I haven't found any solutions to cut the lag. Problems is that 28/28 DoD server runs smoothly about halfday and then it starts to lag. Latency start to run between 11 -250 ms, after rebooting HLDS process, everything works again about halfday. Yes, there is plenty of recources free in server, CPU load never over 85%, even in peaks and more than 2Gb RAM free. I tried to bind processes for different CPU's and network cards, reinstalled (clean install) HLDS / DoD, nothing helps. I run exactly same configuration earlier in w2k server without any problems. So I'm going to change OS back to w2k and hope that helps. Snagu - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem > Steven, > the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and > multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's > multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA > design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed > for high load. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven > Hartland > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > - Original Message - > From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process >> priorities > > Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any > additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. > >Steve / K > > > > > This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. > and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of > misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, > printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in > it. > > In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission > please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
"Nice" to see that here is nothing changed, somebody asking about lag problem and you start arguing about xp / w2k3 server. That's why this mailinglist is from ass. I have still lag problem with DoD / w2k3 server and I will step backwards to w2k server, because I haven't found any solutions to cut the lag. Problems is that 28/28 DoD server runs smoothly about halfday and then it starts to lag. Latency start to run between 11 -250 ms, after rebooting HLDS process, everything works again about halfday. Yes, there is plenty of recources free in server, CPU load never over 85%, even in peaks and more than 2Gb RAM free. I tried to bind processes for different CPU's and network cards, reinstalled (clean install) HLDS / DoD, nothing helps. I run exactly same configuration earlier in w2k server without any problems. So I'm going to change OS back to w2k and hope that helps. Snagu - Original Message - From: "Chance Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem Steven, the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Steven, the Kernel is more optimized to deal with background services and multiple connections/disconnections as well as having it's multithreaded smp more optimized for running services with it's NUMA design for SMP, not to mention a more robust network stack designed for high load. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:41 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process > priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Lackatee wrote: Boy! Your on a self righteous extravaganza today Steve. Way to Go! Quit spamming our inbox's with this crap. Whats you're problem? Ian knows some things none of the rest of us know about optimizing Win2K3 for HL(2) servers. I want to know this mojo also. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Boy! Your on a self righteous extravaganza today Steve. Way to Go! Quit spamming our inbox's with this crap.. What do you gain from all this friction? I dont get it. Lets all run servers and be happy! Lackatee - Original Message - From: "Steven Hartland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process priorities Interesting Ian can u elaberate on that I was not aware of any additional priority handling in 2k3 that XP doesnt have. Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Next topic PLEASE! ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
On my home machine (this one) I run IPSEC to block all the stupid ports Microsoft thinks I require to be open even though just about every single one of them has been compromised at one stage or another. Most people I know aren't even aware of the feature let alone how to use it. I've even tried to share it, much to no avail. I don't even run the Windows Firewall, as I feel a hell of a lot more secure doing things manually than I do by letting another "feature" from Microsoft do it for me. The explantion on how to do it is in the server section of Technet if you're interested. On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:03:40 +, Ian mu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process > priorities etc, but nothing that essentially can't be undone in xp to > make it pretty much equivalent (more of the box so to speak > differences). On that I agree. > > Problem is I personally fall back to the fundamental that a server > runs pretty much as secure and optimised as the admin knows how to. > Oddly enough in some ways I think you can argue you are actually > paying more for less in win2k3 (more stuff disabled as default to make > it more secure, process priorities are better on win2k3 etc is a bit > more signifcant though). The main question I would ask a person when > running their server though is "how well do you know the o.s to > optimise it/secure it/change it to be as good". Typically the answer > in 95% of the cases is not that well tbh, most people (in my > experience) aren't actually that experienced as server admins to any > real expert level. Some people are and do yes (but typically not in > the game server world..but again yes there are some). > > Question is do "you" (not referring to anyone in this thread) really > know how to. If most people are confident they can tie everthing down > need, alter process priorities etc as needed, and everything else then > np, run whichever you want, but I'd be interested in anyone who is > running xp to elaborate on what they've tied down, what processes > they've changed etc. You can also argue if people don't know they > shouldn't be running servers, but I would guess we would have about 5% > of the servers out there we currently do (not referring to games). > (I'd also suggest cynically those who did know, wouldn't get these > problems). > > In other words, bottom line is people pay more for ignorance in life > (include myself in that being relatively ignorant), and it actually > works, they end up with a more stable, better performing setup, > because fundamentally people don't know enough. That goes for linux > and anything else tbh, not specifically win2k3. 2k3 is no miracle or > even that good tbh, but given a choice of 2k3 or xp to get hosting > from given all other things being equal I certainly know where my > money would be going. > > Sorry btw for dragging too much offtopic, but I wonder how much these > XP Servers have been secured and optimised, especially when getting > loads of weird errors you hear about and then suddenly find its on XP > (ppl even thought it was linux they were dealing with at first), hence > the comment. If that can be specified then fair enough, if it can't > then I would still be concerned, but its a bit of a catch-22 all > round. So many servers people have just shoved XP on though without > doing much to it, its hard to be cynical though. > > Hopefully will get back to some constructive suggestions, but > everyones egos always keeps em posting on this stuff ;). > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
There are some advantages of 2k3 over xp, things like process priorities etc, but nothing that essentially can't be undone in xp to make it pretty much equivalent (more of the box so to speak differences). On that I agree. Problem is I personally fall back to the fundamental that a server runs pretty much as secure and optimised as the admin knows how to. Oddly enough in some ways I think you can argue you are actually paying more for less in win2k3 (more stuff disabled as default to make it more secure, process priorities are better on win2k3 etc is a bit more signifcant though). The main question I would ask a person when running their server though is "how well do you know the o.s to optimise it/secure it/change it to be as good". Typically the answer in 95% of the cases is not that well tbh, most people (in my experience) aren't actually that experienced as server admins to any real expert level. Some people are and do yes (but typically not in the game server world..but again yes there are some). Question is do "you" (not referring to anyone in this thread) really know how to. If most people are confident they can tie everthing down need, alter process priorities etc as needed, and everything else then np, run whichever you want, but I'd be interested in anyone who is running xp to elaborate on what they've tied down, what processes they've changed etc. You can also argue if people don't know they shouldn't be running servers, but I would guess we would have about 5% of the servers out there we currently do (not referring to games). (I'd also suggest cynically those who did know, wouldn't get these problems). In other words, bottom line is people pay more for ignorance in life (include myself in that being relatively ignorant), and it actually works, they end up with a more stable, better performing setup, because fundamentally people don't know enough. That goes for linux and anything else tbh, not specifically win2k3. 2k3 is no miracle or even that good tbh, but given a choice of 2k3 or xp to get hosting from given all other things being equal I certainly know where my money would be going. Sorry btw for dragging too much offtopic, but I wonder how much these XP Servers have been secured and optimised, especially when getting loads of weird errors you hear about and then suddenly find its on XP (ppl even thought it was linux they were dealing with at first), hence the comment. If that can be specified then fair enough, if it can't then I would still be concerned, but its a bit of a catch-22 all round. So many servers people have just shoved XP on though without doing much to it, its hard to be cynical though. Hopefully will get back to some constructive suggestions, but everyones egos always keeps em posting on this stuff ;). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Exactly my guess :) RDP / RDC / WTS what ever you want to call it in its different forms is great. Im totally with u with the h8 VNC, yes it works and I will use it if nothing else is available but thats about it. Real reason through and through :D Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Hexis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I just hate VNC, so the WTS stuff that's avaliable (admin only mode = free too) is a good thing for me. I shutdown all un necessary services on any of my boxen, so other than that Win2k Pro and Win2k Server are not all that different. I have no need for the other Server features. I run Win2k because I like the greater avaliability of software (game servers) I can run on it vs Linux. If everything came out for FreeBSD I would be a much happier geek. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
So your one reason so far is RDC which if you hadn't noticed is a component of XP. So the question remains why is 2k3 server better for game servers. I'm not usually harsh but if you cant provide any real answers I suggest you keep a bit quieter and let those who actually know answer. Steve / K - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Obviously, my point stands. You don't charge a client to host his services on a desktop operating system. ESPECIALLY, when it directly affects the performance of the machine in question. RDC is a secure connection to the server that will provide reliable services to a paying client and insures the best option of running a Microsoft platform at it's highest possible performance/reliability. "Personal preference" when it comes to charging a client for services needs to be pushed aside and use the platform that is specifically designed to provide this type of service. In following with the relativity to the HLDS list I am suggesting from first hand knowledge that the gentleman needs to run his services under the Win2K3 operating system to insure performance of the services running on it. I will not get into a "who's dick is bigger" conversation over my knowledge of the OS. It's been plainly stated the advantages of the OS over others in both this list and multiple venues on the internet. If he chooses to stay with a desktop operating system then he should "take what you get" and learn from his mistakes or seek the knowledge of others that use it instead of relying on a hosting salesman's impression of an OS's performance. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:27:37PM -, Steven Hartland wrote: > > Sounds like a man with a real reason, I could take a guess but care to let > people know :P I just hate VNC, so the WTS stuff that's avaliable (admin only mode = free too) is a good thing for me. I shutdown all un necessary services on any of my boxen, so other than that Win2k Pro and Win2k Server are not all that different. I have no need for the other Server features. I run Win2k because I like the greater avaliability of software (game servers) I can run on it vs Linux. If everything came out for FreeBSD I would be a much happier geek. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:46:03PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Obviously, my point stands. You don't charge a client to host his services > on a desktop operating system. ESPECIALLY, when it directly affects the > performance of the machine in question. RDC is a secure connection to the > server that will provide reliable services to a paying client and insures > the best option of running a Microsoft platform at it's highest possible > performance/reliability. "Personal preference" when it comes to charging a > client for services needs to be pushed aside and use the platform that is > specifically designed to provide this type of service. > In following with the relativity to the HLDS list I am suggesting from first > hand knowledge that the gentleman needs to run his services under the Win2K3 > operating system to insure performance of the services running on it. I will > not get into a "who's dick is bigger" conversation over my knowledge of the > OS. It's been plainly stated the advantages of the OS over others in both > this list and multiple venues on the internet. If he chooses to stay with a > desktop operating system then he should "take what you get" and learn from > his mistakes or seek the knowledge of others that use it instead of relying > on a hosting salesman's impression of an OS's performance. Well, my servers are just that, mine. They are purly for whatever games servers I want to run. I don't rent/lease/lend/whatever then to anyone. So for me the question is easy, I run whatever I want to. I think I'm in the same situation as many game admins. All I'm asking is _why_ is Win2k3 Server "better". Is is only because he's having trouble with XP? Is it because "Server" is in the name? Is it because it from Microsoft, so it's gotta be good? _Why_? If you want to posture that Server is better because it says Server, I'm not impressed. If you want to provide real technicial reason then cool, I get to learn something today, and I enjoy learning. If you tell me it s your preferance to run 2k3 Server because you like it, great. That's a reason too. I'm just looking for a clear reason. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Obviously, my point stands. You don't charge a client to host his services on a desktop operating system. ESPECIALLY, when it directly affects the performance of the machine in question. RDC is a secure connection to the server that will provide reliable services to a paying client and insures the best option of running a Microsoft platform at it's highest possible performance/reliability. "Personal preference" when it comes to charging a client for services needs to be pushed aside and use the platform that is specifically designed to provide this type of service. In following with the relativity to the HLDS list I am suggesting from first hand knowledge that the gentleman needs to run his services under the Win2K3 operating system to insure performance of the services running on it. I will not get into a "who's dick is bigger" conversation over my knowledge of the OS. It's been plainly stated the advantages of the OS over others in both this list and multiple venues on the internet. If he chooses to stay with a desktop operating system then he should "take what you get" and learn from his mistakes or seek the knowledge of others that use it instead of relying on a hosting salesman's impression of an OS's performance. Ray S. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hexis Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:43 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 03:18:30PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > And his OS choice is shitting all over this simple process program. So maybe > you have a better suggestion? So you are saying you don't know what makes Win2k3 "Server" better? I use Win2k Server on my Game servers. There is a reason I don't use Win2k Pro. My reasoning is not that "Server" is in the product name. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
- Original Message - From: "Hexis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I use Win2k Server on my Game servers. There is a reason I don't use Win2k Pro. My reasoning is not that "Server" is in the product name. Sounds like a man with a real reason, I could take a guess but care to let people know :P Steve / K This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
I'd be interested to know what *server* features you believe your game servers benefit from? Do you think just because your running game *servers* that you need a OS with *server* in the name? Is there any real difference between a windows or linux server and a workstation configured OS when it all comes down to it? Game servers are simple things they just need a good scheduler and efficient IO both disk and network. Due to the very nature both these are very similar in XP vs 2k3 the only real difference being there are some tweaks in 2k3 as its "newer" but we all know that tweaks don't necessarily produce better performance. If in fact you pitched an out of the box XP install vs a 2k3 Server install I wouldn't be surprised to see XP perform better purely due to the fewer number of services it runs by default, hence my previous statement that they should be very close if setup correctly. Yes the original claim doesn't seem to make have an credence but then again neither does any of your unsubstantiated claims. Steve / K - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I question anyone who says to not take Win2K3 as it *should* be shitty for CS servers. First of all, *should* suggests someone with no idea what they're talking about. Second, when does a hosting provider become knowledgeable in running a CS server. And thirdly, I run several Win2K3 servers both with Web Edition and Standard Edition and every client I host in both CS, FarCry, and other games revel in the high performances we offer them. Take note that you want to run a *server* for clients. The name alone should be taken as something reliably hosted. Using a *desktop* operating system to run a *server* is just plain ignorant. Furthermore, Win2K3 and XP are very much alike except for the main distinction of Win2K3 being a *SERVER* OS. I don't care how many *shitloads* of servers they claim to run. You are being fed information by an idiot. Use Win2K3 and log in to your servers with RDC. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
For crying out loud, either tell the guy its a HLDS problem or tell him to get a clue, do we have to keep debating the relative merits of this or that OS forever? On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:42:41 -0600, Hexis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 03:18:30PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > And his OS choice is shitting all over this simple process program. So maybe > > you have a better suggestion? > > So you are saying you don't know what makes Win2k3 "Server" better? > > I use Win2k Server on my Game servers. There is a reason I don't use > Win2k Pro. My reasoning is not that "Server" is in the product name. > > -- > Hexis > www.hxxl.com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 03:18:30PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > And his OS choice is shitting all over this simple process program. So maybe > you have a better suggestion? So you are saying you don't know what makes Win2k3 "Server" better? I use Win2k Server on my Game servers. There is a reason I don't use Win2k Pro. My reasoning is not that "Server" is in the product name. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
And his OS choice is shitting all over this simple process program. So maybe you have a better suggestion? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hexis Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 2:46 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:23:44PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I question anyone who says to not take Win2K3 as it *should* be shitty for > CS servers. First of all, *should* suggests someone with no idea what > they're talking about. Second, when does a hosting provider become > knowledgeable in running a CS server. And thirdly, I run several Win2K3 > servers both with Web Edition and Standard Edition and every client I host > in both CS, FarCry, and other games revel in the high performances we offer > them. Take note that you want to run a *server* for clients. The name alone > should be taken as something reliably hosted. Using a *desktop* operating > system to run a *server* is just plain ignorant. Furthermore, Win2K3 and XP > are very much alike except for the main distinction of Win2K3 being a > *SERVER* OS. I don't care how many *shitloads* of servers they claim to run. > You are being fed information by an idiot. Use Win2K3 and log in to your > servers with RDC. I'm wondering what, other than the string "Server" in the name, makes Win2k3 Server better than a Win XP install on the same hardware, if each OS is configured correctly for the application? Is the IP stack different? Is the IO different? Does the kernel handle single threaded apps better (like srcds/hlds is). Is remote access (administrative wise) easier/better? Are the other services (unrelated to srcds/hlds) important? I honestly don't know the answer to most of these questions. My point is simply that what's in a name? Just because Microsoft calls a product "Server" does not make it better. SRCDS/HLDS is a simple beast. It's just a simgle process running on whatever platform. There is no database required, no high IO requirements, no real IP stack issues, no encryption problems. It's really an easy program/service to support on today's gear. It takes a handful of UDP connections and spits a small amount of data out to them. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 02:23:44PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I question anyone who says to not take Win2K3 as it *should* be shitty for > CS servers. First of all, *should* suggests someone with no idea what > they're talking about. Second, when does a hosting provider become > knowledgeable in running a CS server. And thirdly, I run several Win2K3 > servers both with Web Edition and Standard Edition and every client I host > in both CS, FarCry, and other games revel in the high performances we offer > them. Take note that you want to run a *server* for clients. The name alone > should be taken as something reliably hosted. Using a *desktop* operating > system to run a *server* is just plain ignorant. Furthermore, Win2K3 and XP > are very much alike except for the main distinction of Win2K3 being a > *SERVER* OS. I don't care how many *shitloads* of servers they claim to run. > You are being fed information by an idiot. Use Win2K3 and log in to your > servers with RDC. I'm wondering what, other than the string "Server" in the name, makes Win2k3 Server better than a Win XP install on the same hardware, if each OS is configured correctly for the application? Is the IP stack different? Is the IO different? Does the kernel handle single threaded apps better (like srcds/hlds is). Is remote access (administrative wise) easier/better? Are the other services (unrelated to srcds/hlds) important? I honestly don't know the answer to most of these questions. My point is simply that what's in a name? Just because Microsoft calls a product "Server" does not make it better. SRCDS/HLDS is a simple beast. It's just a simgle process running on whatever platform. There is no database required, no high IO requirements, no real IP stack issues, no encryption problems. It's really an easy program/service to support on today's gear. It takes a handful of UDP connections and spits a small amount of data out to them. -- Hexis www.hxxl.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
I question anyone who says to not take Win2K3 as it *should* be shitty for CS servers. First of all, *should* suggests someone with no idea what they're talking about. Second, when does a hosting provider become knowledgeable in running a CS server. And thirdly, I run several Win2K3 servers both with Web Edition and Standard Edition and every client I host in both CS, FarCry, and other games revel in the high performances we offer them. Take note that you want to run a *server* for clients. The name alone should be taken as something reliably hosted. Using a *desktop* operating system to run a *server* is just plain ignorant. Furthermore, Win2K3 and XP are very much alike except for the main distinction of Win2K3 being a *SERVER* OS. I don't care how many *shitloads* of servers they claim to run. You are being fed information by an idiot. Use Win2K3 and log in to your servers with RDC. Ray S. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:05 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Well we were adviced by them NOT to take win2k3 as it should be shitty for cs servers. I trusted em in that advice cause they host shitloads of servers. Can any 1 share their experiances with win2k3 ? - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > Tbh I wouldnt run WinXP for servers, stick to Win2k3 Server. > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
"There should be little difference between the two if setup correctly" Bingo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steven Hartland Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:27 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem There should be little difference between the two if setup correctly, and cost is an obvious consideration that will make most go for XP. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Saint K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Well we were adviced by them NOT to take win2k3 as it should be shitty for > cs servers. I trusted em in that advice cause they host shitloads of > servers. > Can any 1 share their experiances with win2k3 ? This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
There should be little difference between the two if setup correctly, and cost is an obvious consideration that will make most go for XP. Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Saint K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well we were adviced by them NOT to take win2k3 as it should be shitty for cs servers. I trusted em in that advice cause they host shitloads of servers. Can any 1 share their experiances with win2k3 ? This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
If you have money to burn or don't mind a bit if illegal software here and there that is :P Steve / K - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tbh I wouldnt run WinXP for servers, stick to Win2k3 Server. This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Well we were adviced by them NOT to take win2k3 as it should be shitty for cs servers. I trusted em in that advice cause they host shitloads of servers. Can any 1 share their experiances with win2k3 ? - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Tbh I wouldnt run WinXP for servers, stick to Win2k3 Server. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Tbh I wouldnt run WinXP for servers, stick to Win2k3 Server. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Well we've just switched from host. We were located at 22host, and moved to 4u servers now cause they offerd us much better machines for much less money. This boxes are completely new, and its the first time they get used. The harddisks (dont ask me why) got replaced already. So also a clean install was done for the second time, still not solving the issues. I dont think the problem actually lies in VNC itself, cause it also happends with radmin etc. My believe is that there is something in windows XP screwing it. Allthought i cannot find out were :/ Our sister community 69er, has also machines running WinXP @ 4u servers. None of there machines are showing this problem. - Original Message - From: "Napier, Kevin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem btw, did this start all of a sudden, or has it reacted like this from the get go? (almost sounds like vnc..etc is triggering the system mmtimer things that other apps trigger) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:47 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Ill try explain the situation better. Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real low again. - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Another stupid question (just related to problems I've had)if you remote in from a different PC than normal, does it not cause the lag? There seems to be something really freaky with how win2k3 (I know you say XP, but might be similar), deals with connections it already knows. Be interesting if it doesn't cause it from a totally different PC remoting in (which is exactly what we had, I always had to remote in from a 2nd machine, couldn't if I used my normal one as it would cause lag and various other anomolies). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
btw, did this start all of a sudden, or has it reacted like this from the get go? (almost sounds like vnc..etc is triggering the system mmtimer things that other apps trigger) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:47 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Ill try explain the situation better. Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real low again. - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > Another stupid question (just related to problems I've had)if you > remote in from a different PC than normal, does it not cause the lag? > There seems to be something really freaky with how win2k3 (I know you > say XP, but might be similar), deals with connections it already > knows. Be interesting if it doesn't cause it from a totally different > PC remoting in (which is exactly what we had, I always had to remote > in from a 2nd machine, couldn't if I used my normal one as it would > cause lag and various other anomolies). > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Running mplayer2 with an avi loaded helps. Also increase fps_max, or sv_maxfps I think it might have been. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [AoL]Renshai Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:42 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem I seem to remember a way to speed up your FPS on the server was to open a seperate application affecting video (i.e. a flash animation). I dunno, trying to search my internal memory, but old age is getting in the way and clouding it up. Anyone else remember something about that, or is it just me getting old? :) I guess my point is, could it be related to that same video issue? especially if the pings go down, WHEN you connect? Also, have you checked out the performance on the box when the pings go up/down? Once again, old age getting in the way here, and I don't remember if you said you were or not. ;) Thanks, -Ren > Ill try explain the situation better. > > Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my > pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs > server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the > VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts > lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs > etc. > On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real > low again. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
We;ve been running performance logs etc, no unusual things to be seen in there :( - Original Message - From: "Ook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Has anyone watched the box when this happens to see if there are any processes using CPU or bandwidth? I would think that whatever the cause of the lag, it would be visible in the form of excessive cpu consumption (which can be associated with some process), excessive bandwidth consumption, or maybe just hlds sitting there and lagging for no obvious reason. - Original Message - From: "Saint K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Ill try explain the situation better. Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real low again. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Yea we've also tried running the file, it brings down the server to a constant 100 ping when ur logged out of vnc. So that aint an option either :( - Original Message - From: "[AoL]Renshai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem I seem to remember a way to speed up your FPS on the server was to open a seperate application affecting video (i.e. a flash animation). I dunno, trying to search my internal memory, but old age is getting in the way and clouding it up. Anyone else remember something about that, or is it just me getting old? :) I guess my point is, could it be related to that same video issue? especially if the pings go down, WHEN you connect? Also, have you checked out the performance on the box when the pings go up/down? Once again, old age getting in the way here, and I don't remember if you said you were or not. ;) Thanks, -Ren Ill try explain the situation better. Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real low again. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
I seem to remember a way to speed up your FPS on the server was to open a seperate application affecting video (i.e. a flash animation). I dunno, trying to search my internal memory, but old age is getting in the way and clouding it up. Anyone else remember something about that, or is it just me getting old? :) I guess my point is, could it be related to that same video issue? especially if the pings go down, WHEN you connect? Also, have you checked out the performance on the box when the pings go up/down? Once again, old age getting in the way here, and I don't remember if you said you were or not. ;) Thanks, -Ren > Ill try explain the situation better. > > Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my > pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs > server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the > VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts > lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs > etc. > On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real > low again. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Has anyone watched the box when this happens to see if there are any processes using CPU or bandwidth? I would think that whatever the cause of the lag, it would be visible in the form of excessive cpu consumption (which can be associated with some process), excessive bandwidth consumption, or maybe just hlds sitting there and lagging for no obvious reason. - Original Message - From: "Saint K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > Ill try explain the situation better. > > Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my > pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs > server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the > VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts > lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. > On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real > low again. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Ill try explain the situation better. Server runs a hlds procces in the background. When i log in from either my pc, or any other server with vnc/radmin/remote desktop the pings in the cs server are absolutely wonder full. But as soon as i close the VNC/radmin/remote (what ever u logon with) connection the server starts lagging 1500 pings, then timeouts, then runs fine, then lag, time outs etc. On the EXACT moment i log in with one of the apps again, the pings go real low again. - Original Message - From: "Ian mu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Another stupid question (just related to problems I've had)if you remote in from a different PC than normal, does it not cause the lag? There seems to be something really freaky with how win2k3 (I know you say XP, but might be similar), deals with connections it already knows. Be interesting if it doesn't cause it from a totally different PC remoting in (which is exactly what we had, I always had to remote in from a 2nd machine, couldn't if I used my normal one as it would cause lag and various other anomolies). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Another stupid question (just related to problems I've had)if you remote in from a different PC than normal, does it not cause the lag? There seems to be something really freaky with how win2k3 (I know you say XP, but might be similar), deals with connections it already knows. Be interesting if it doesn't cause it from a totally different PC remoting in (which is exactly what we had, I always had to remote in from a 2nd machine, couldn't if I used my normal one as it would cause lag and various other anomolies). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Thanks, i didnt knew this one, it kicks ass! But unfortunatly it doesnt fix my problems :( - Original Message - From: "[AoL]Renshai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem We had similar issues also. You could try ultravnc. ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/ultravnc/ ) The files on the homepage are older than what is under the files link at the top of this page. They have some custom video drivers that also speed up your vnc connection itself. Ultravnc also allows file transfers. Since it is using custom video drivers for the vnc connection and normal vnc doesn't, perhaps the issue you are running into is related to your remote sessions releasing the video? Just a thought. -Ren [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] We have a very strange problem, we have 2 identical server boxes with identical problem. When ever we are logged in with either VNC, radmin, or remote desktop connection the cs servers on it run fine, no problems what so ever. But as soon as we close our vnc connection, the server starts laggin like an idiot, 1500+ pings, freezes sometimes, connection errors etc. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
We had similar issues also. You could try ultravnc. ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/ultravnc/ ) The files on the homepage are older than what is under the files link at the top of this page. They have some custom video drivers that also speed up your vnc connection itself. Ultravnc also allows file transfers. Since it is using custom video drivers for the vnc connection and normal vnc doesn't, perhaps the issue you are running into is related to your remote sessions releasing the video? Just a thought. -Ren > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > We have a very strange problem, we have 2 identical server boxes with > identical problem. > > When ever we are logged in with either VNC, radmin, or remote desktop > connection the cs servers on it run fine, no problems what so ever. > But as soon as we close our vnc connection, the server starts laggin like > an idiot, 1500+ pings, freezes sometimes, connection errors etc. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Tried both, running as service and consoled mode, both same effect :( - Original Message - From: "Wyrecompute Test" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hello, From past experience with vnc / remote administrator, are you running these programs manually? (i.e. double clicking the icon) if so this is probably what's causing your programs, try running the servers with a program like firedaemon or another way of running them as a service, this way the program is always running as a system service and unaffected by what's going on with the sessions. Also id suggest using remote desktops rather than vnc / radmin as its built into windows anyway and so without vnc / radmin running will free up more resources. -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Hello, >From past experience with vnc / remote administrator, are you running these >programs manually? (i.e. double clicking the icon) if so this is probably >what's causing your programs, try running the servers with a program like >firedaemon or another way of running them as a service, this way the program >is always running as a system service and unaffected by what's going on with >the sessions. Also id suggest using remote desktops rather than vnc / radmin >as its built into windows anyway and so without vnc / radmin running will free >up more resources. -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Tried that, no spiking in cpu useages etc. CPU is nicely around 40% Also it issnt VNC what is causing the problem, cause when ever we use radmin or remote desktop connection as alternative it does the exact same thing :( - Original Message - From: "Reza A. Ambler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem You should try to get the system monitor to monitor the cpu/ram usages, etc... over a period of time and look to see if your vnc app hogs the cpu while you're logged out. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:21 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem yea sorry forgot to mention it was WinXP pro running on it. Also tried running with the console flag, makes no differsance :( As soon as we logout the server go's totally insane) - Original Message - From: "Reza A. Ambler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- If this is a windows server, have you tried running the daemon from the command line w/the -console flag? If so are you expieriecing the same issues? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ian mu Sent: Mon 2/7/2005 3:10 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Sounds like a stupid question, it sounds a bit from the various references you're actually talking about a window server, but then throw in the linux references? Just wanted to check what linux distro you are using etc. Just I've seen similar problems on windows before, but not on linux (hence I actually thought you were talking about win2k3 server or something). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
You should try to get the system monitor to monitor the cpu/ram usages, etc... over a period of time and look to see if your vnc app hogs the cpu while you're logged out. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:21 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem yea sorry forgot to mention it was WinXP pro running on it. Also tried running with the console flag, makes no differsance :( As soon as we logout the server go's totally insane) - Original Message - From: "Reza A. Ambler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > If this is a windows server, have you tried running the daemon from the > command line w/the -console flag? If so are you expieriecing the same > issues? > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ian mu > Sent: Mon 2/7/2005 3:10 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem > > > > Sounds like a stupid question, it sounds a bit from the various > references you're actually talking about a window server, but then > throw in the linux references? Just wanted to check what linux distro > you are using etc. Just I've seen similar problems on windows before, > but not on linux (hence I actually thought you were talking about > win2k3 server or something). > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] > -- > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
yea sorry forgot to mention it was WinXP pro running on it. Also tried running with the console flag, makes no differsance :( As soon as we logout the server go's totally insane) - Original Message - From: "Reza A. Ambler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:35 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- If this is a windows server, have you tried running the daemon from the command line w/the -console flag? If so are you expieriecing the same issues? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ian mu Sent: Mon 2/7/2005 3:10 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Sounds like a stupid question, it sounds a bit from the various references you're actually talking about a window server, but then throw in the linux references? Just wanted to check what linux distro you are using etc. Just I've seen similar problems on windows before, but not on linux (hence I actually thought you were talking about win2k3 server or something). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- If this is a windows server, have you tried running the daemon from the command line w/the -console flag? If so are you expieriecing the same issues? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ian mu Sent: Mon 2/7/2005 3:10 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem Sounds like a stupid question, it sounds a bit from the various references you're actually talking about a window server, but then throw in the linux references? Just wanted to check what linux distro you are using etc. Just I've seen similar problems on windows before, but not on linux (hence I actually thought you were talking about win2k3 server or something). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Odd lag problem
Sounds like a stupid question, it sounds a bit from the various references you're actually talking about a window server, but then throw in the linux references? Just wanted to check what linux distro you are using etc. Just I've seen similar problems on windows before, but not on linux (hence I actually thought you were talking about win2k3 server or something). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Odd lag problem
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- If you're running the daemons on Linux why even use a VNC/radmin to start the daemon? why not do it through ssh? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Saint K. Sent: Mon 2/7/2005 2:21 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] Odd lag problem -- -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] We have a very strange problem, we have 2 identical server boxes with identical problem. When ever we are logged in with either VNC, radmin, or remote desktop connection the cs servers on it run fine, no problems what so ever. But as soon as we close our vnc connection, the server starts laggin like an idiot, 1500+ pings, freezes sometimes, connection errors etc. As soon as we log back in problems are all over We are sure it has nothing to do with the hardware or the connection, as we have 2 more exact the same machines running linux without a problem. We've also tested running just a clean install of cs, same thing :( We've tried disable not needed service etc, also no effect. Our config: P4 3.0GHz 1024 MB @ 533 MHz Maxtor 7200 rpm hdd 100mbit line on the backbone. Saint K. -- Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- [ winmail.dat of type application/ms-tnef deleted ] -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
