Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Eric (Deacon)]

In a bold display of creativity, Martin Zwickel wrote:

If I understood Alfred correctly in a private email exchange, hlds
have a resend packet system included.


Hopefully!!! Or some kind of FEC ;)


Freakin Error Control? :P

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[kama]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, ScratchMonkey wrote:

> --On Tuesday, November 15, 2005 1:38 PM +0100 kama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel. If its to large it
> > will probably flood the modemuser and make him disconnect. So its probably
> > just a legacy today, since most of the gamers now have faster connections
> > than for 5 years ago. And since it hae been working fine before, why
> > change it?
>
> Ah, that makes much more sense. The restriction is one of hardware,
> specifically the Ethernet max packet size. Making the text longer would
> force IP fragmentation.
>
> OTOH, consider the bulk of the player sprays that get exchanged between
> client and server. They're huge in comparison. But you can refuse them at
> the client, and you can't refuse the motd.

I think its sent through another channel than the other trafic and only
utilize a small procentage of the bandwidth limit. If I recall correctly,
when I was trying to program plugins to hlds+mm, there are different
channels for different stuff.

Sprays are not game critical and if the spray will download in 1 sek or 1
min doesn't matter for the player, the normal player doesn't care how fast
the sprays are downloaded.

All this is probably specified somewhere in the SDK or on some developer
forum/wiki.

/Bjorn

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Tuesday, November 15, 2005 1:38 PM +0100 kama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel. If its to large it
will probably flood the modemuser and make him disconnect. So its probably
just a legacy today, since most of the gamers now have faster connections
than for 5 years ago. And since it hae been working fine before, why
change it?


Ah, that makes much more sense. The restriction is one of hardware,
specifically the Ethernet max packet size. Making the text longer would
force IP fragmentation.

OTOH, consider the bulk of the player sprays that get exchanged between
client and server. They're huge in comparison. But you can refuse them at
the client, and you can't refuse the motd.



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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Martin Zwickel]

--
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:23:11 +0100 (CET)
kama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:

>
> If I understood Alfred correctly in a private email exchange, hlds
> have a resend packet system included.

Hopefully!!! Or some kind of FEC ;)

--
MyExcuse:
Password is too complex to decrypt

Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Research & Development

TechnoTrend AG 
--
[ signature.asc of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
--

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[kama]

If I understood Alfred correctly in a private email exchange, hlds have a
resend packet system included.

/Bjorn

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Stan Bubrouski wrote:

> And what's wrong with using UDP for MOTD (assuming they do from
> previous mail), its not like its mission critical, the world wont end
> if the packet is lost :)
>
> -sb
>
> On 11/15/05, Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --
> > On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:56:24 +
> > Ben Kennish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:
> >
> > > kama wrote:
> > > > Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel.
> > >
> > > That would surprise me.  To send HTML through UDP seems a bit
> > > ridiculous to me.  The motd is hardly time sensitive ;)
> >
> > Does it matter if you send HTML through UDP? No!
> >
> > Why create another TCP connection just for the motd if you already
> > have an UDP one?
> >
> > --
> > MyExcuse:
> > the real ttys became pseudo ttys and vice-versa.
> >
> > Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Research & Development
> >
> > TechnoTrend AG 
> > --
> > [ signature.asc of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
> > --
> >
> > ___
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> > please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Stan Bubrouski]

And what's wrong with using UDP for MOTD (assuming they do from
previous mail), its not like its mission critical, the world wont end
if the packet is lost :)

-sb

On 11/15/05, Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:56:24 +
> Ben Kennish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:
>
> > kama wrote:
> > > Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel.
> >
> > That would surprise me.  To send HTML through UDP seems a bit
> > ridiculous to me.  The motd is hardly time sensitive ;)
>
> Does it matter if you send HTML through UDP? No!
>
> Why create another TCP connection just for the motd if you already
> have an UDP one?
>
> --
> MyExcuse:
> the real ttys became pseudo ttys and vice-versa.
>
> Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Research & Development
>
> TechnoTrend AG 
> --
> [ signature.asc of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
> --
>
> ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Martin Zwickel]

--
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:56:24 +
Ben Kennish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:

> kama wrote:
> > Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel.
>
> That would surprise me.  To send HTML through UDP seems a bit
> ridiculous to me.  The motd is hardly time sensitive ;)

Does it matter if you send HTML through UDP? No!

Why create another TCP connection just for the motd if you already
have an UDP one?

--
MyExcuse:
the real ttys became pseudo ttys and vice-versa.

Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Research & Development

TechnoTrend AG 
--
[ signature.asc of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
--

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Martin Zwickel]

--
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:38:10 +0100 (CET)
kama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:

>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel. If its to large
> it will probably flood the modemuser and make him disconnect. So its
> probably just a legacy today, since most of the gamers now have
> faster connections than for 5 years ago. And since it hae been
> working fine before, why change it?

???

Then don't create big motd pages if only 9k modem user connect to
your server... but why limit it?!
And a normal motd isn't that big, a few kb's, that wouldn't "flood" a
modem user in any way!!!


The map files should also be just ~1.4k in size, else it would be
too large for the modem users!?

That's not a real argument you stated...

--
MyExcuse:
sticktion

Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Research & Development

TechnoTrend AG 
--
[ signature.asc of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
--

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[kama]

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Ben Kennish wrote:

> kama wrote:
> > Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel.
>
> That would surprise me.  To send HTML through UDP seems a bit ridiculous
> to me.  The motd is hardly time sensitive ;)

AFAIK hlsd don't open up a TCP channel. Ofcourse it could have changed as
time goes by.

The thing I wanted to point out was the history of the small motd.txt.

/Bjorn

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

kama wrote:

Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel.


That would surprise me.  To send HTML through UDP seems a bit ridiculous
to me.  The motd is hardly time sensitive ;)

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[kama]

My 2 cents.

Usually motd.txt is sent through the UDP-gamechannel. If its to large it
will probably flood the modemuser and make him disconnect. So its probably
just a legacy today, since most of the gamers now have faster connections
than for 5 years ago. And since it hae been working fine before, why
change it?

/Bjorn

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005, HoundDawg wrote:

> These questions aren't really for me personally, as I host my own
> servers for my needs.  But, I am gathering info to add to ServerWiki.org
> for other admins to reference.  Thanks.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Shannon
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:40 AM
> > To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> > Probably the cause could be either:
> >
> > a) His ISP doesn't offer personal web space
> >
> > or
> >
> > b) it would hit its bandwidth limit and be taken offline
> >
> > I've got a few webspace customers who got sick and tired of their
> websites
> > going down due to stupid ISP rules, so they are hosted on my servers
> > instead. No fancy domain name or anything, just a small personal site.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "ScratchMonkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:27 AM
> > Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> >
> > > --On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:10 AM -0800 HoundDawg
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.
> Anyone
> > >> offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for those not
> renting
> > >> servers from them?  For example, those that run cable servers
> locally.
> > >
> > > Most ISP's offer personal web space as part of the package. Why not
> host
> > > your motd.txt there?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> >
> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Erik Hollensbe]

Yep, source uses both TCP and UDP.
On Nov 14, 2005, at 5:20 PM, James Tucker wrote:


TCP eh?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Erik Hollensbe
Sent: 14 November 2005 19:31
To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working


On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, James Tucker wrote:


How big is a game command packet, the network object container for
this data?


I stated this earlier, it's 1600 bytes on the TCP side (for
source, at least), which is likely the culprit.

--
Erik Hollensbe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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--
Erik Hollensbe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[James Tucker]

TCP eh?

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Erik Hollensbe
> Sent: 14 November 2005 19:31
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, James Tucker wrote:
>
> > How big is a game command packet, the network object container for
> > this data?
>
> I stated this earlier, it's 1600 bytes on the TCP side (for
> source, at least), which is likely the culprit.
>
> --
> Erik Hollensbe
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

Well I would never have thought that this tiny little post would have
got so many responses!

Personally I've just put a URL into motd.txt and that's fine for me.  OK
so it's probably lazy programming on Valve's part.  A bit of a shame but
redirection works fine so I'm not too fussed.

--
Ben
www.benkennish.co.uk

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ray]

At what 20MBs at most (counting an image or two)I'd think it'd be pretty
hard for any of us to say no to a simple request like that. Most, as I would
anyway, would provide a subdomain for it and complete cpanel control. Any
busy server might enjoy a $5/yr charge tops just to cover any crazy hits to
the bandwidth.

Rayne

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Tucker
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 2:21 PM
To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

I can offer you hosting for free if you want. It's only text.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> HoundDawg
> Sent: 14 November 2005 18:11
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
>
> Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.
>  Anyone offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for
> those not renting servers from them?  For example, those that
> run cable servers locally.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Shannon
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:06 AM
> > To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> > Good point. I've been hosting centralized maps/models/etc download
> > locations (set up by default in the server.cfg file customers start
> > with) to
> keep
> > downloads quick, and every game server comes with a
> webserver if for
> > nothing else to host their motd.html file so they can
> modify it/link
> > to their site/advertise recruitment and what have you.
> >
> > I would think the bigger guys were already doing this;
> apparently I'd
> be
> > wrong.
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "HoundDawg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:45 AM
> > Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> >
> > > First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as
> long as it
> > > has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm
> sure
> > > we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't
> have to
> > > drag this out in the future again.
> > >
> > > Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to
> offer
> > > MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a
> free
> > > added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up
> with a
> > > server, but not everyone with a web server too.
> > >
> > > Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common
> map server
> > > that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as
> well.
> > >
> > > Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.
> > >
> > >
> > > HoundDawg
> > > UnitedAdmins.com Chairman
> > >
> > >
> > >> motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any
> regular web
> > >> servers that artificially limit the size of served
> pages. (Embedded
> > >> web
> > > servers,
> > >> yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory
> luxury of
> a
> > > box
> > >> running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily
> > > related to
> > >> the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be
> as malicious
> as
> > >> game
> > >> server operators. ;)
> > >>
> > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Erik Hollensbe]

On Nov 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, James Tucker wrote:


How big is a game command packet, the network object container for
this data?


I stated this earlier, it's 1600 bytes on the TCP side (for source,
at least), which is likely the culprit.

--
Erik Hollensbe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[James Tucker]

I can offer you hosting for free if you want. It's only text.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> HoundDawg
> Sent: 14 November 2005 18:11
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
>
> Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.
>  Anyone offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for
> those not renting servers from them?  For example, those that
> run cable servers locally.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Shannon
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:06 AM
> > To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> > Good point. I've been hosting centralized maps/models/etc download
> > locations (set up by default in the server.cfg file customers start
> > with) to
> keep
> > downloads quick, and every game server comes with a
> webserver if for
> > nothing else to host their motd.html file so they can
> modify it/link
> > to their site/advertise recruitment and what have you.
> >
> > I would think the bigger guys were already doing this;
> apparently I'd
> be
> > wrong.
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "HoundDawg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:45 AM
> > Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
> >
> >
> > > First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as
> long as it
> > > has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm
> sure
> > > we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't
> have to
> > > drag this out in the future again.
> > >
> > > Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to
> offer
> > > MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a
> free
> > > added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up
> with a
> > > server, but not everyone with a web server too.
> > >
> > > Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common
> map server
> > > that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as
> well.
> > >
> > > Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.
> > >
> > >
> > > HoundDawg
> > > UnitedAdmins.com Chairman
> > >
> > >
> > >> motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any
> regular web
> > >> servers that artificially limit the size of served
> pages. (Embedded
> > >> web
> > > servers,
> > >> yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory
> luxury of
> a
> > > box
> > >> running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily
> > > related to
> > >> the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be
> as malicious
> as
> > >> game
> > >> server operators. ;)
> > >>
> > >
> > > ___
> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives,
> > > please visit:
> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the
> list archives,
> > please visit:
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>
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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[James Tucker]

How big is a game command packet, the network object container for this data?

You might write a lot of code, but as you should know, the design is also 
important.

I really don't see why there can't be a cvar for this to present it from a 
proper webserver in the first instance.

A string splitter could have easily been implemented if the above is true and 
there is no denying that fact.

Motd.txt is not "essentially a webpage" as it's "essentially a file containing 
(maybe) some HTML" - think ScratchMonkey.

Dynamic sized buffers, whilst useful for irregular flow and non-bounce limits, 
are not useful for high bounce limits,
fixed length communications, latency or many other factors pertaining to game 
and telecommunications performance.
Moreover they are easier to DoS.

On optimisations in code:
YOU NEVER OPTIMISE A DESIGN BEFORE IT'S COMPLETE! I know most development 
houses do, but then you should know as well as
I do, most development houses miss their targets.

The rest is down to you.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> ScratchMonkey
> Sent: 14 November 2005 16:54
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
> --On Monday, November 14, 2005 8:23 AM -0800 m0gely
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I think it's funny that you talk about this like you know what's
> > really going on here.  We have no idea what the reason for
> this limitation is.
>
> I write enough code (and read tons more) that I can make an
> educated guess.
>
> >   And since they provided an easy enough way around it rather than
> > remove the limitation itself, there must be a good reason
> it's still
> > there.
>
> Sure: Programmer time is expensive. Game server admin time is
> cheap. They don't have to pay *us*. (I'd probably make the
> same choice in their shoes.
> Hopefully they fix it in the next engine.)
>
> It's also an effect of closed source. I use another company's
> engine that's licensed very cheaply, so lots of people get to
> see it (and submit patches). If you know outsiders will be
> looking at your code, you tend to work a bit harder to make
> it clean. Closed source is rewarded by money.
> Open source is rewarded by ego.
>
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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[HoundDawg]

These questions aren't really for me personally, as I host my own
servers for my needs.  But, I am gathering info to add to ServerWiki.org
for other admins to reference.  Thanks.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Shannon
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:40 AM
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
> Probably the cause could be either:
>
> a) His ISP doesn't offer personal web space
>
> or
>
> b) it would hit its bandwidth limit and be taken offline
>
> I've got a few webspace customers who got sick and tired of their
websites
> going down due to stupid ISP rules, so they are hosted on my servers
> instead. No fancy domain name or anything, just a small personal site.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "ScratchMonkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:27 AM
> Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
>
> > --On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:10 AM -0800 HoundDawg
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.
Anyone
> >> offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for those not
renting
> >> servers from them?  For example, those that run cable servers
locally.
> >
> > Most ISP's offer personal web space as part of the package. Why not
host
> > your motd.txt there?
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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archives,
> > please visit:
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> >
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Glenn Shannon]

Probably the cause could be either:

a) His ISP doesn't offer personal web space

or

b) it would hit its bandwidth limit and be taken offline

I've got a few webspace customers who got sick and tired of their websites
going down due to stupid ISP rules, so they are hosted on my servers
instead. No fancy domain name or anything, just a small personal site.

- Original Message -
From: "ScratchMonkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working



--On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:10 AM -0800 HoundDawg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.  Anyone
offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for those not renting
servers from them?  For example, those that run cable servers locally.


Most ISP's offer personal web space as part of the package. Why not host
your motd.txt there?



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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:10 AM -0800 HoundDawg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.  Anyone
offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for those not renting
servers from them?  For example, those that run cable servers locally.


Most ISP's offer personal web space as part of the package. Why not host
your motd.txt there?



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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[HoundDawg]

Well, that's good to hear that some are doing this out there.  Anyone
offering a very low cost MOTD hosting web space for those not renting
servers from them?  For example, those that run cable servers locally.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Shannon
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:06 AM
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
> Good point. I've been hosting centralized maps/models/etc download
> locations
> (set up by default in the server.cfg file customers start with) to
keep
> downloads quick, and every game server comes with a webserver if for
> nothing
> else to host their motd.html file so they can modify it/link to their
> site/advertise recruitment and what have you.
>
> I would think the bigger guys were already doing this; apparently I'd
be
> wrong.
> - Original Message -
> From: "HoundDawg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:45 AM
> Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
>
> > First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as long as it
> > has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm
sure
> > we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't
have to
> > drag this out in the future again.
> >
> > Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to
offer
> > MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a
free
> > added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up
with a
> > server, but not everyone with a web server too.
> >
> > Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common map server
> > that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as
well.
> >
> > Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.
> >
> >
> > HoundDawg
> > UnitedAdmins.com Chairman
> >
> >
> >> motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any regular web
> >> servers
> >> that artificially limit the size of served pages. (Embedded web
> > servers,
> >> yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory luxury of
a
> > box
> >> running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily
> > related to
> >> the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be as malicious
as
> >> game
> >> server operators. ;)
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
archives,
> > please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Eric (Deacon)]

In a bold display of creativity, ScratchMonkey wrote:

Closed source is rewarded by money.
Open source is rewarded by ego.


If ego could pay my bills, I'd be rich.

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Glenn Shannon]

Good point. I've been hosting centralized maps/models/etc download locations
(set up by default in the server.cfg file customers start with) to keep
downloads quick, and every game server comes with a webserver if for nothing
else to host their motd.html file so they can modify it/link to their
site/advertise recruitment and what have you.

I would think the bigger guys were already doing this; apparently I'd be
wrong.
- Original Message -
From: "HoundDawg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working



First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as long as it
has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm sure
we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't have to
drag this out in the future again.

Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to offer
MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a free
added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up with a
server, but not everyone with a web server too.

Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common map server
that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as well.

Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.


HoundDawg
UnitedAdmins.com Chairman



motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any regular web
servers
that artificially limit the size of served pages. (Embedded web

servers,

yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory luxury of a

box

running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily

related to

the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be as malicious as
game
server operators. ;)



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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ray]

Some of us do just thatwe hide/lock down the game's motd so they clients
don't know where the files are coming from unless they go sniffing packets
which is beyond the average gaming player's realm of knowledge. Some enjoy
the service while others never bother. Ce la vie`

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of HoundDawg
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 12:45 PM
To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as long as it
has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm sure
we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't have to
drag this out in the future again.

Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to offer
MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a free
added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up with a
server, but not everyone with a web server too.

Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common map server
that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as well.

Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.


HoundDawg
UnitedAdmins.com Chairman


> motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any regular web
> servers
> that artificially limit the size of served pages. (Embedded web
servers,
> yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory luxury of a
box
> running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily
related to
> the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be as malicious as
> game
> server operators. ;)
>

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[HoundDawg]

First, I'm a bit surprised that this topic has gone on as long as it
has.  It's an old one too that I remember seeing years ago.  I'm sure
we'll see a page or 2 get put on ServerWiki.org soon so we don't have to
drag this out in the future again.

Secondly, I'm surprised that no GSP has come up with an idea to offer
MOTD hosting on one of their web servers.  If nothing else, as a free
added value to their server rental customers.  Many admins end up with a
server, but not everyone with a web server too.

Also, it wouldn't be hard for a GSP to establish a common map server
that their customers can point to for custom map file downloads as well.

Anyway, my 2 cents on the issue.


HoundDawg
UnitedAdmins.com Chairman


> motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any regular web
> servers
> that artificially limit the size of served pages. (Embedded web
servers,
> yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory luxury of a
box
> running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily
related to
> the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be as malicious as
> game
> server operators. ;)
>

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Monday, November 14, 2005 11:55 AM -0500 Stan Bubrouski
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Yeah but limits are important.  Allowing motd.txt to be infinite
(limited to available memory) has no advantages really.  And if your
motd is more than a few thousand characters I seriouly doubt anyone is
reading it anyways.  If there were no motd.txt limit I'd link it to
/dev/urandom and let all players that connected hang indefinately ;-)


motd.txt is essentially a web page. I don't know of any regular web servers
that artificially limit the size of served pages. (Embedded web servers,
yes, but they don't have the kind of non-volatile memory luxury of a box
running HLDS.) Note that the size of the file isn't necessarily related to
the extent of the rendered page. And webmasters can be as malicious as game
server operators. ;)

BTW, an important disadvantage of fixed-size buffers is that they tend to
attract buffer overflow bugs and exploits. Only an assembly language
programmer should use a fixed buffer, where performance absolutely demands
it. (It might make sense when interacting with a hardware device with a
fixed-size hardware buffer.) Using dynamically-sized buffers makes your
code much more resistant to buffer-size-related bugs. One should also use
smart pointers to avoid resource leaks. (String classes are really a
special case of a smart pointer and a dynamically-assigned buffer.)

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Stan Bubrouski]

On 11/14/05, ScratchMonkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:28 AM + Ben Kennish
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Some will say bad design.  Some will say optimisation.
>
> And the latter would be wrong, as you should never optimize until you know
> where the bottlenecks are. Otherwise you're wasting programmer time.
> Especially when you consider that the workaround is to pull a file *from
> another server* via URL, which is grossly more pessimal.
>
> This looks like some junior programmer was using an array on the stack
> instead of a string class (which would grow to accomodate any size). Very
> bad style for production code. And generally not needed even in a quick
> test hack, given the availability of good string classes in almost any
> framework.

Yeah but limits are important.  Allowing motd.txt to be infinite
(limited to available memory) has no advantages really.  And if your
motd is more than a few thousand characters I seriouly doubt anyone is
reading it anyways.  If there were no motd.txt limit I'd link it to
/dev/urandom and let all players that connected hang indefinately ;-)

-sb

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Erik Hollensbe]

On Nov 14, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Martin Zwickel wrote:

Why is there any limit? Bad design...


Just taking a guess here. I recently wrote a set of modules for Ruby
that work with Source's TCP side of the protocol, and IIRC the limit
on the size of a packet is 1600 bytes (including headers). This might
explain a few things.

--
Erik Hollensbe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Monday, November 14, 2005 8:23 AM -0800 m0gely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


I think it's funny that you talk about this like you know what's really
going on here.  We have no idea what the reason for this limitation is.


I write enough code (and read tons more) that I can make an educated guess.


  And since they provided an easy enough way around it rather than
remove the limitation itself, there must be a good reason it's still
there.


Sure: Programmer time is expensive. Game server admin time is cheap. They
don't have to pay *us*. (I'd probably make the same choice in their shoes.
Hopefully they fix it in the next engine.)

It's also an effect of closed source. I use another company's engine that's
licensed very cheaply, so lots of people get to see it (and submit
patches). If you know outsiders will be looking at your code, you tend to
work a bit harder to make it clean. Closed source is rewarded by money.
Open source is rewarded by ego.

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[m0gely]

ScratchMonkey wrote:


This looks like some junior programmer  ...




I think it's funny that you talk about this like you know what's really
going on here.  We have no idea what the reason for this limitation is.
 And since they provided an easy enough way around it rather than
remove the limitation itself, there must be a good reason it's still there.

--
- m0gely
http://quake2.telestream.com/
Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

ScratchMonkey wrote:

And the latter would be wrong, as you should never optimize until you know
where the bottlenecks are. Otherwise you're wasting programmer time.
Especially when you consider that the workaround is to pull a file *from
another server* via URL, which is grossly more pessimal.

This looks like some junior programmer was using an array on the stack
instead of a string class (which would grow to accomodate any size). Very
bad style for production code. And generally not needed even in a quick
test hack, given the availability of good string classes in almost any
framework.


I agree.

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Monday, November 14, 2005 10:28 AM + Ben Kennish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Some will say bad design.  Some will say optimisation.


And the latter would be wrong, as you should never optimize until you know
where the bottlenecks are. Otherwise you're wasting programmer time.
Especially when you consider that the workaround is to pull a file *from
another server* via URL, which is grossly more pessimal.

This looks like some junior programmer was using an array on the stack
instead of a string class (which would grow to accomodate any size). Very
bad style for production code. And generally not needed even in a quick
test hack, given the availability of good string classes in almost any
framework.

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

Martin Zwickel wrote:

Why is there any limit? Bad design...


Some will say bad design.  Some will say optimisation.

Ben

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Martin Zwickel]

--
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 16:38:53 +
Ben Kennish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> bubbled:

> m0gely wrote:
> > 1536 Character limit.  If you want that exact page to work, just
> > put the url to your motd in the motd.txt file and nothing else, or
> > trim down the code.
> >
> > http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html
>
> m0gely ur a sanity saver - thank you!
>
> Of course in an ideal world, if motd.txt was > 1536 characters, the
> actual motd would become something like:
>
> "motd.txt is greater than 1536 and so could not be displayed.  Use
> redirection by placing just a URL in motd.txt"

Why is there any limit? Bad design...

--
MyExcuse:
le0: no carrier: transceiver cable problem?

Martin Zwickel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Research & Development

TechnoTrend AG 
--
[ Content of type application/pgp-signature deleted ]
--

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Kyle Lutze]

m0gely wrote:

Ben Kennish wrote:


Well in my case it was the character limit causing problems but
this is very interesting anyway.  I wonder why Valve aren't using a
pre-existing rendering engine such as Gecko / IE to save these kinds of
problems?



AFAIK, the game uses IE.  I believe Alfred has stated this on the list.


well, there's your problem! IE... come on, as developers they should
know better :/

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[ScratchMonkey]

--On Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:22 PM -0800 m0gely
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Ben Kennish wrote:


Well in my case it was the character limit causing problems but
this is very interesting anyway.  I wonder why Valve aren't using a
pre-existing rendering engine such as Gecko / IE to save these kinds of
problems?


AFAIK, the game uses IE.  I believe Alfred has stated this on the list.


The latest Mozilla builds use the Cairo back-end for the Gecko engine.
Cairo has a more modular structure allowing it be used with other than the
conventional 2D video card interfaces. In particular, it can be used with
the 3D part of the card (eg. via OpenGL), which is where all the speed is,
and it can render to a chunk of memory in 3D texture memory. What's
interesting about the latter is that you could render a web browser to an
in-game texture and map it onto an in-game object, like, say, a terminal.
Imagine all the UI things that fall out once you're able to to do that. And
because Mozilla is platform-independent, you can have this in Linux and
console games based on the same code.



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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[m0gely]

Ben Kennish wrote:


Well in my case it was the character limit causing problems but
this is very interesting anyway.  I wonder why Valve aren't using a
pre-existing rendering engine such as Gecko / IE to save these kinds of
problems?


AFAIK, the game uses IE.  I believe Alfred has stated this on the list.

--
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http://quake2.telestream.com/
Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

James Tucker wrote:

The parser which parses the page coming from the gameserver does not parse HTML 
correctly. I am able to make many valid
HTML 2.0, 3.2, 4.0, XML pages that WILL NOT render in game.


Well in my case it was the character limit causing problems but
this is very interesting anyway.  I wonder why Valve aren't using a
pre-existing rendering engine such as Gecko / IE to save these kinds of
problems?

--
Ben
www.benkennish.co.uk

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

m0gely wrote:

1536 Character limit.  If you want that exact page to work, just put the
url to your motd in the motd.txt file and nothing else, or trim down the
code.

http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html


m0gely ur a sanity saver - thank you!

Of course in an ideal world, if motd.txt was > 1536 characters, the
actual motd would become something like:

"motd.txt is greater than 1536 and so could not be displayed.  Use
redirection by placing just a URL in motd.txt"

:)

--
Ben
www.benkennish.co.uk

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RE: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[James Tucker]

I was supposed to be sending example test cases to Alfred regarding this issue.

The parser which parses the page coming from the gameserver does not parse HTML 
correctly. I am able to make many valid
HTML 2.0, 3.2, 4.0, XML pages that WILL NOT render in game.

Interestingly, if you click a link from a working motd.txt, a copy of an 
internet explorer object gets loaded and a
seemingly different parser is run. I do not know what the difference is between 
the two HTML renderers used, but it is
clear that the one which renders the motd.txt file is significantly lighter 
than the normal IE renderer, and does not
support all standard HTML trees. This is NOT related to the character limit, 
character encoding or any other similar
issue.

One perfect example, is try and use a standard html 3.2 page with a background 
and text inside of standard  tags.
Generally many options will break the renderer, attributes can do it alone. One 
thing we noticed of particular
importance is that the renderer becomes significantly more consistent if you 
wrap everyhting inside  in 
tags. N.B. PRE tags are not handled in a way consistent with W3C's definition.


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Ben Kennish
> Sent: 12 November 2005 15:24
> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
>
> Ben Kennish wrote:
> > http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html
>
> BTW, it validates as valid HTML and CSS...
>
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.benke
> nnish.co.uk/motd.html
> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warn
> ing=2&uri=http%3A//www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html
>
> I've also tried using unix2dos to convert it to DOS style
> line endings but that doesn't seem to make any difference.
>
> This is driving me insane - someone please help!  :S
>
> --
> Ben
> www.benkennish.co.uk
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives, please visit:
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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

Ben Kennish wrote:

http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html


BTW, it validates as valid HTML and CSS...

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warning=2&uri=http%3A//www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html

I've also tried using unix2dos to convert it to DOS style line endings
but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

This is driving me insane - someone please help!  :S

--
Ben
www.benkennish.co.uk

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[m0gely]

Ben Kennish wrote:


I'm almost 100% sure that this used to work and now all of a sudden it
doesn't.


1536 Character limit.  If you want that exact page to work, just put the
url to your motd in the motd.txt file and nothing else, or trim down the
code.

http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html

--
- m0gely
http://quake2.telestream.com/
Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike

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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Nic Strix]

I seem to remember from this list that it was disabled - might be mistaken

N



From: Ben Kennish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 14:48:08 +

Ben Kennish wrote:

I have attached the motd.txt in question (renamed to .html)


OK - obviously this mailing list software doesn't understand the
difference between an html attachment and an html e-mail.  Ahh well,
I've uploaded it to my website instead...

http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html

I'm almost 100% sure that this used to work and now all of a sudden it
doesn't.

Anyone got any ideas?

Cheers,

Ben


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Re: [hlds_linux] motd.txt not working

[Ben Kennish]

Ben Kennish wrote:

I have attached the motd.txt in question (renamed to .html)


OK - obviously this mailing list software doesn't understand the
difference between an html attachment and an html e-mail.  Ahh well,
I've uploaded it to my website instead...

http://www.benkennish.co.uk/motd.html

I'm almost 100% sure that this used to work and now all of a sudden it
doesn't.

Anyone got any ideas?

Cheers,

Ben


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