Re: [Hornlist] Yamaha 668N (first model)
OK, you asked for it. 1. To add length to the levers if your fingers are short. 2. To add thickness to the levers if they have worn down to a sharp edge. 3. To provide a tactile reminder of the need to arch the fingers with the fingertips touching the widest parts of the levers. 4. To dress up the horn in a manner that's w-a-a-a-y cool. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 12:34 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: Clayton Whetmore, here: Alan Cole wrote: PS: E-Mail me back if you want a list of 4 practical reasons for having dimes soldered onto your 1-2-3 valve levers. -AC. Go for it! Share with all of us! ___ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Yamaha 668N (first model)
Clayton Whetmore, here: Alan Cole wrote: PS: E-Mail me back if you want a list of 4 practical reasons for having dimes soldered onto your 1-2-3 valve levers. -AC. Go for it! Share with all of us! ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Questions on Poulenc Elegie
Hi Simone I'm not a specialist on the Poulenc, but I'm trying to get a handle on stopping. This column says that cuivre doesn't necessarily mean stopped. http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr/tech2.html Maybe it will help? Rebecca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, In the 67-69th bars after the second Très calme, (i.e. rehersal number 10 of Chester's editon) there is a word cuivrè. Does it mean hand-stopping, stop with a mute or just simply play "copper-like" ? Cuivrè means "copper-like, brassy" in French but more specifically, it means muting in horn. What should I do? If I hand stop, as the notes are so low, it's nearly inaudible. But as far as I remember, I heard something like muting in the CD recording. I have to play this piece in exam soon, anybody can help? And do we use double tonguing in the "Agitato" parts of the piece? It enables me to play faster but the tonguing is not clean if I double tongue them. One last question, any tips on playing the glissando in the piece? I just randomly press the keys, but it seems odd sometimes if I play the notes unevenly. Regards, Simone ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rrwatters%40yahoo.com Rebecca Watters Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidsons.homestead.com 40 Woodlands St. 41 SINGAPORE 738547 H: [65] 6256-0214 W: [65] 6363-3406 M: [65] 9125-2614 - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Doppler effect
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> David,
>
> I don't understand why swing the funnel can alter the pitch by Doppler
> effect. Can you explain more?
People nearby will experience a Doppler effect because as the hose swings
around, the funnel end gets alternately closer and farther from their
ears. You won't hear the effect as much because the funnel stays close to
the same distance from your ears. Not entirely though, so you ought to
experience some wavering of pitch.
The effect on the audience is going to offend purists who insist that a
trill begin on the upper note or on the lower note. The folks on your
left will not agree with the folks on your right which note you started
with.
> Then what about a modern horn? Can we swing a modern horn to make a
> trill?
Yes, once.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] Doppler effect
David,
I don't understand why swing the funnel can alter the pitch by Doppler effect.
Can you explain more? Then what about a modern horn? Can we swing a modern horn
to make a trill?
Simone
Quoting David Goldberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Another practical use of the Doppler effect in the hornist's life occurs
> when giving a hose-concert. You can approximate a trill by swinging the
> funnel end of the hose around, lasso-style.
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
>{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
> http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/simonehk%40hkusua.hku.hk
>
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Re: [Hornlist] Stop Mute Innovations
How's the intonation?-AC. ~~~ After the rehearsal, the section leader said there was no need to spend the eighty bucks - "just use an empty mineral water bottle" she said. Sure enough, if you shove it up your bell, the horn sounds stopped with a lovely buzzing tone. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stop Mute Innovations
I've recently moved to Singapore and the ensemble that I now play with expects the section to use stop mutes for stopped parts. When I was a student in the US, we were always encouraged to use our hand to play stopped parts. This week in a rehearsal, the director demanded that we all go buy stop mutes. After the rehearsal, the section leader said there was no need to spend the eighty bucks - "just use an empty mineral water bottle" she said. Sure enough, if you shove it up your bell, the horn sounds stopped with a lovely buzzing tone. I feel like a *complete* cheater doing this, but it actually sounds OK; or at least better than my attempt at hand stopping. I would never want to admit that a water bottle sounds better than my own ability to stop my horn - however, this just might be the case for the moment. Thoughts? Rebecca Watters Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidsons.homestead.com 40 Woodlands St. 41 SINGAPORE 738547 H: [65] 6256-0214 W: [65] 6363-3406 M: [65] 9125-2614 - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Sore Throat
Hello, All: I've returned to playing Horn after a 3 year break. I can't remember if this used to happen to me or not, but lately after playing a demanding rehearsal I end up with a sore throat after playing. Is anybody else experiencing this? Any guesses as to what the cause might be? Thanks, Rebecca Rebecca Watters Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidsons.homestead.com No. 79 Lane 261 Jiangsu Lu, Shanghai 200050 CHINA Phone: [011-86-21] 6213- x 1488 - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: natural horns and horn/flute
Natural horns: In my earlier years, I had the pleasure of making 3 natural horns. Two turned out well and one was a great learning experience now enlightening others as a lamp. My 2 cents worth on this is you can't successfully make an all around hand horn that will respond as well in all keys. For mine, F,D and G worked all right together and then descant D with the Bb horn. I used existing bells with pitch filled tubing from Allied or Ferrees. The horn that was unacceptable was the one I tried to use existing tubing from parts horns. Horn/flute: I play in a flute choir and at times switch to horn. There are many books written for any instrumentation. They vary in difficulty. Transposing off bass clef parts for baritone, trombone or cello is quite easy. Then there are alto sax/flute books by the dozen also very easy to transpose while you read. It's fun, on a day I have more than 3 gray cell firing, to switch around for a couple of hours and really get a mental workout. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] "Singing"
Hi. Again, I mention Earl Saxton's emphasis upon "hornsinging." It is a good concept and likely easier to grasp with legato and slurring. However; may I remind you that staccato occurs also in singing. Think of Figaro in "Largo al factotum" and the Gilbert and Sullivan patter songs. Some of those things are real tongue twisters! The real challenge in hornsinging is to learn to make beautiful sounds rapidly when necessary in staccato passages. Listen to what great soloists achieve! You must make Mozart's rondo movements of his concerti sing! Cheers, most CORdially, Paul Mansur On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 04:06 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Vibrato discussion brought to mind a question I've had for quite some time We often refer to our playing as "singing with the horn" and during my few lessons with Morris Secon he really stressed the "singing" aspect. Then I made a point of listening to singers,especially Frank Sinatra for his phrasing, and realised that singers slur EVERYTHING..hardly ever a true separation between notes. Guess the question is how can we "sing" without the slurring? Sorry if this is stupid question #142 but I really am curious about this.. I want to sing with my horn! Anne ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pmansur%40bellsouth.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Doppler effect
Another practical use of the Doppler effect in the hornist's life occurs
when giving a hose-concert. You can approximate a trill by swinging the
funnel end of the hose around, lasso-style.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] "Singing"
Anne, You think that is a stupid question? Not at all! I think that the best reference for you would be Marvin C. Howe's The Advancing Hornist. I don't know how accessible it is, (I only ever have seen it at Interlochen) but it is a great book to learn how to be more lyrical in your playing. The first volume is very appropriately titled The Singing Hornist. There is a very lengthy introduction explaining everything and well worth the read. The exercises range from very mild to "meh" in terms of technique, but it's a wonderful reference for becoming more of a musician than a robot playing fingerings. Hope that helps! On that note, I just was wondering if anyone else has heard of this book because when my teacher this summer told me to get it, it was a great tool. I still use things from it every day in practice. Michael Scheimer, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 2003 Interlochen Arts Camp Concert Band, 2002, 2003 PMEA Honors Band and 2003 District Orchestra, 2004 District Band Founding co-member of Fünf Brass Quintet ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] "Singing"
Vibrato discussion brought to mind a question I've had for quite some time We often refer to our playing as "singing with the horn" and during my few lessons with Morris Secon he really stressed the "singing" aspect. Then I made a point of listening to singers,especially Frank Sinatra for his phrasing, and realised that singers slur EVERYTHING..hardly ever a true separation between notes. Guess the question is how can we "sing" without the slurring? Sorry if this is stupid question #142 but I really am curious about this.. I want to sing with my horn! Anne ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Goedicke (Gedike) Horn Concerto recording
another source is www.crotchet.co.uk worth a try! - Original Message - From: phirsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:56 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Goedicke (Gedike) Horn Concerto recording > In the previous digest, I see that someone is seeking a recording of the > Goedicke (as it is usually, but not always, transliterated) and was > referred to amazon.uk. The CD may or may not be out of print, or at least > this appears to be the case from the amazon info and was further confirmed > when I was not able to find it on www.arkivmusic.com, one of the more > reliable US sources of classical CDs. I do see it at www.jpc.de but my > experience with jpc is that it lists everything without much regard for > actually being able to deliver the goods. Still, it might be worth a try. > There are plenty of places to track down OOP and used CDs, but it is > probably best to do and exhaustive search of the sources dealing with in > print material. Be aware that the title of the 2 CD set that the concerto > is "Russian Futurism, vol. 2" and so be sure to search by album title since > there may be some disagreement the spelling for the composers name and also > some sites may not choose to list the full contents individually. Don't let > the fact that there is nothing at all "futuristic" (whatever that may mean) > about the Goedicke concerto throw you off either, the title is just a > meaningless catch-all. > > Hope this helps more that it confuses and discourages, > > Peter Hirsch > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/amegenity%40comcast.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Doppler shift
On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 02:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By the way, Doppler's experiments verifying the effect involved listening to trumpet players on passing railroad cars. Since he studied rising pitch before he studied falling pitch, one important side benefit of his research was that there were no trumpet players left in town when it was over. So, I guess he finished the job with Shawm players. Cheers, Paul ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Why does a cold horn take so long to warm up? Simple. The air at the end
> of it by the time it gets there matches the temperature of the Horn
> itself.
The air that emanates from your embouchure loses a lot of heat on
expansion, so your mouthpiece heats up, leaving much cooler air to travel
through the horn. To transfer heat through the horn, it is most efficient
to remove the mouthpiece and blow directly into the leadpipe. You can get
your mouthpiece warm by holding it in your hand, until you reach age 60 or
so. :(
> 40 below is also why I suggest to try it out on an old horn.
Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius? (tech-joke)
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 01:46 PM, Shane McLaughlin wrote: Sound (vibration) will travel slower through denser materials. That's my guess. It's been a few years. I think it's the other way 'round. Otherwise we would use cast iron for sound insulation material. Cheers, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Doppler shift
Paul It is my understanding that the Doppler effect is heard only when there is motion by the sound source (toward or away from) the point of perception, or vice versa, when the point of perception moves in relation to the sound source. ** True. If you run while playing your horn, you won't detect a Doppler shift in your notes. But if you run toward a brick wall which reflects the sound, you will have trouble playing in tune with yourself owing to the Doppler shift in the echo. Unfortunately, brick walls seldom appear in the middle of football fields, so we must attribute poor intonation in marching bands to a difference source. By the way, Doppler's experiments verifying the effect involved listening to trumpet players on passing railroad cars. Since he studied rising pitch before he studied falling pitch, one important side benefit of his research was that there were no trumpet players left in town when it was over. Gotta go, Cabbage ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
Air density varies inversely proportional to temperature? Sound (vibration) will travel slower through denser materials. That's my guess. It's been a few years. > Ah. So why is there such a change in pitch with changes in air temperature > inside the Horn? Shane McLaughlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 2nd, Knoxville ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
This change is not the Doppler effect, but a change of the basic frequency. There is no frequency change with Doppler; it is perception only that changes. Cheers, Paul Mansur On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 12:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah. So why is there such a change in pitch with changes in air temperature inside the Horn? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Goedicke (Gedike) Horn Concerto recording
In the previous digest, I see that someone is seeking a recording of the Goedicke (as it is usually, but not always, transliterated) and was referred to amazon.uk. The CD may or may not be out of print, or at least this appears to be the case from the amazon info and was further confirmed when I was not able to find it on www.arkivmusic.com, one of the more reliable US sources of classical CDs. I do see it at www.jpc.de but my experience with jpc is that it lists everything without much regard for actually being able to deliver the goods. Still, it might be worth a try. There are plenty of places to track down OOP and used CDs, but it is probably best to do and exhaustive search of the sources dealing with in print material. Be aware that the title of the 2 CD set that the concerto is "Russian Futurism, vol. 2" and so be sure to search by album title since there may be some disagreement the spelling for the composers name and also some sites may not choose to list the full contents individually. Don't let the fact that there is nothing at all "futuristic" (whatever that may mean) about the Goedicke concerto throw you off either, the title is just a meaningless catch-all. Hope this helps more that it confuses and discourages, Peter Hirsch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Speed of Sound [correction]
At 11:29 AM 11/17/03 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Yet we know there is a Doppler effect. Relatively speaking. John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
Ah... thanks... I was confusing the Doppler effect with something else then. *doh* Now you can see why I only lasted one semester as a Physics major -William In a message dated 11/17/2003 9:37:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound > Date: 11/17/2003 9:37:26 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > Sorry, I was not complete in my explanation. The frequency is directly > proportional to the speed of sound in the horn. That is, a 5% increase in > speed > of sound will give a 5% increase in frequency. As Cabbage has pointed out, > this > is 84 cents, nearly a 1/2 step. > > More technical: as the speed of sound in the horn increases, it takes less > time > for the sound to go from the mouthpiece to the bell. More accurately, at a > given overtone, it takes less time for the pressure pulse to traverse the > distance between nodes. Note that this has NOTHING to do with the Doppler > effect, which is the pitch change as the sound source moves with respect to > your ears. > > Any further explanation will have to come from Cabbage, but he may know > better > than to open this can of worms any further. Go see his show; it's > informative > AND entertaining. > > Herb Foster > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster > >writes: > > > > > >>I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > >>emouchure. > >>Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg > C) > >>increases the speed of sound by 5%. > > > >Hi Herb, > > How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an > >attack, just curious!) > > > >-Steve Mumford > >___ > >post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Out of Print Punto
Barb, Try Hans Pizka; it is listed as one of the publications he carries. I think, though I am not sure it is one of the KaWe items he took over from Klaas Weelink. I'm sure you would have heard directly from him by now, except for the fact that I believe he is traveling in the far east at the moment and may be suffering "temporal dislocation" as a result of being so many time zones away. So, go to www.pizke.de/chamber.htm and scroll down until you come to the Horn & 1 Instrument section where it is item K. 076. I believe that I have an old copy direct from KaWe about 30 years ago and I don't recall there being any sort of keyboard accompaniment, though anyone reasonable capable at realizing figured bass ought to be able to improvise one if desired. Peter Hirsch http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
Paul - if I remember my high school physics, I believe you are correct. To state is anothe way, the Doppler effect is only heard by the stationary listener as the sound source moves towards him/her, then past him/her. The source of the sound will only perceive a steady tone. Incidentally, this can help one understand the theory of general relativity as it describes the time discrepancies experienced by a space traveler and an observer on the ground. (I've been reading my Isaac Asimov essays once again - it can make you a little overwhelmed to think that you may actually be able to somewhat understand the universe.) paxmaha Paul Mansur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 11:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Yet we know there is a Doppler effect. It is my understanding that the Doppler effect is heard only when there is motion by the sound source (toward or away from) the point of perception, or vice versa, when the point of perception moves in relation to the sound source. CORdially, Paul Mansur - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Doppler effect
In a message dated 17/11/2003 17:25:28 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > However, if an orchestra member plays very sharp, the overall sound will > improve if that person were to move very fast away from the orchestra. > In a wonderful little book I possess there is a passage on the doppler method of transposition. It involves a revolving stage which operates at different speeds to effect the necessary transpostion (clockwise for upwards transpositions, anti-clockwise for downwards, or maybe vice versa). This same book also makes mention of the innoculation principle in which a small amount of that which in larger quantities would kill, is administered to effect a protection. It is in this way, the book explains, that split notes in the horn section should be viewed and horn players be lauded as saviours of the evening. All the best, Lawrence AOL is having problems at the moment - if you do not receive an acknowledgement within 24 hours (I usually reply within a couple of hours), please re-send your e-mail - I probably haven't received it. http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
Sorry, I was not complete in my explanation. The frequency is directly proportional to the speed of sound in the horn. That is, a 5% increase in speed of sound will give a 5% increase in frequency. As Cabbage has pointed out, this is 84 cents, nearly a 1/2 step. More technical: as the speed of sound in the horn increases, it takes less time for the sound to go from the mouthpiece to the bell. More accurately, at a given overtone, it takes less time for the pressure pulse to traverse the distance between nodes. Note that this has NOTHING to do with the Doppler effect, which is the pitch change as the sound source moves with respect to your ears. Any further explanation will have to come from Cabbage, but he may know better than to open this can of worms any further. Go see his show; it's informative AND entertaining. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster > writes: > > > > I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > > emouchure. > > Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > > increases the speed of sound by 5%. > > Hi Herb, > How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an > attack, just curious!) > > -Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
The Doppler effect isn't involved with the relation between temperature,
speed and frequency.
An analogy:
Imagine a dripping faucet: drip..drip..drip..
Now raise the faucet while it drips. As it rises, the drops are spread
out more because drop#2 begins farther up from where drop#1 began; i.e.,
drip.drip.drip.
The number of drops per second is the analogy to the pitch of a note, the
number of cycles per second. Fewer cycles/sec = lower pitch.
However, if an orchestra member plays very sharp, the overall sound will
improve if that person were to move very fast away from the orchestra.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
Ah. So why is there such a change in pitch with changes in air temperature inside the Horn? It cannot be because of the metal expanding or contracting since it doesn't do it enough to cause that much of a difference, plus that would change the pitch oppositely to how it normally behaves with temperature. I think this is what Herb was getting at, and my Physics knowledge is limited, so any explanation to why this is so would be great :P -William In a message dated 11/17/2003 9:02:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction] > Date: 11/17/2003 9:02:57 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > > On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 11:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >Yet we know there is a Doppler effect. > > It is my understanding that the Doppler effect is heard only when there > is motion by the sound source (toward or away from) the point of > perception, or vice versa, when the point of perception moves in > relation to the sound source. > > CORdially, Paul Mansur > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 11:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yet we know there is a Doppler effect. It is my understanding that the Doppler effect is heard only when there is motion by the sound source (toward or away from) the point of perception, or vice versa, when the point of perception moves in relation to the sound source. CORdially, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [correction]
According to my physics textbooks I just read that the frequency itself does not change with a change in air temperature although the speed of the air changes. Yet we know there is a Doppler effect. I'm not really sure why that is so if anyone wants to explain it, feel free. -William Of course these are also my own musings, and I could be very wrong... so who knows? -William In a message dated 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound > Date: 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster > writes: > > > >I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > >emouchure. > >Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > >increases the speed of sound by 5%. > > Hi Herb, > How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an > attack, just curious!) > > -Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
Oh yes, and it's surprising how many students out there actually think that colder instruments are sharper because they are a little shorter. Once again, the contraction of the metal is TRIVIAL compared to the temperature of the air inside it. It is the air column which is carrying the sound, not the metal. Why does a cold horn take so long to warm up? Simple. The air at the end of it by the time it gets there matches the temperature of the Horn itself. So if your leadpipe is warm but the rest is cold - flat flat flat flat flat. That's why those compressed air cans work so well to prove my point. If you bring your air column up from 60 degrees F to 98.6F you won't hear much of a difference. However when you bring it up from -40F (the temperature those compressed air cans can get to, especially if you hold them upside down) you notice one hell of a pitch increase. 40 below is also why I suggest to try it out on an old horn. -William Maybe this is why I've seen so many pull out when they should have pushed in -William In a message dated 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound > Date: 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster > writes: > > > >I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > >emouchure. > >Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > >increases the speed of sound by 5%. > > Hi Herb, > How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an > attack, just curious!) > > -Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound [Proof]
That's a very good question. The relative speed of sound I know can change the pitch of something - it's called the Doppler effect. A good example is someone driving down the highway honking their horn as you are standing on the side of the road. Notice the pitch starts higher than the sound of the Horn, and then decreases to one that is lower. Of course our horns aren't travelling towards our ears at 20m/s (unless someone is just careless in emptying their water and you get broadsided by the second hornists bell) so how else could the pitch change? I don't remember much of sound in my Physics class days but the speed of sound does change according to temperature and air pressure and humidity and the like and it's even different in pure air compared to polluted air I think. If that said car horn though was approaching you at 30m/s (autobahn speeds?) then the same emitted frequency would be hitting your ears at 300m/s instead of the usual 330m/s. So, the pitch CAN change according to the speed of sound apparently. But does the speed of sound vary that much with air temperature? http://www.measure.demon.co.uk/Acoustics_Software/speed.html";>http://www.measure.demon.co.uk/Acoustics_Software/speed.html There is a handy calculator. Assuming our breath is 100% humidity, at 30 degrees C the speed of sound is 351m/s. If it's a cold instrument (say 10 degrees C) it shifts down to a whopping 338m/s - a difference of 13m/s, or almost 40mph. The temperature of the metal has very little to do with the pitch of the horn since changes in temperature on brass or nickel silver are only typically large enough to shift the metal an extra millimeter or two in length. It is indeed the temperature of the air INSIDE the horn which makes all the difference. Of course a cold instrument makes the air cold, so it's natural to want a warm instrument. Metal does contract at colder temperatures and expand at higher temperatures. However the pitch does not go sharp on a cold instrument, it goes FLAT. Likewise, a hot instrument is very sharp. Obviously the speed of sound does change the pitch. On a side note, a great way to prove this (although I wouldn't do it on an expensive horn) is to take a very cold compressed air can, blow it through your instrument, then play. You'll hear the pitch start very low then immediately slide back up to normal. -William In a message dated 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Subj: [Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound > Date: 11/17/2003 7:55:06 AM Pacific Standard Time > From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent from the Internet > > > > In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster > writes: > > > >I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > >emouchure. > >Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > >increases the speed of sound by 5%. > > Hi Herb, > How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an > attack, just curious!) > > -Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/valkhorn%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Goedike recording
Here's a link to amazon.com cd of the concerto...it's actually quite good. I own it and teach the concerto to some of my students. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B07RSV/026-5685530-1192445 "Matthew Lovelace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Does anybody know where I can find a recording of the Goedike horn Concerto? >I need to play it for a competition next year and would like to hear it >first. > > >___ >post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/dkmolendyk%40cs.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Speed of Sound
In a message dated 11/15/03 1:00:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,Herb Foster writes: > I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > emouchure. > Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > increases the speed of sound by 5%. Hi Herb, How does the speed of sound affect the frequency of the pitch? (not an attack, just curious!) -Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Questions on Poulenc Elegie
Dear all, In the 67-69th bars after the second Très calme, (i.e. rehersal number 10 of Chester's editon) there is a word cuivrè. Does it mean hand-stopping, stop with a mute or just simply play "copper-like" ? Cuivrè means "copper-like, brassy" in French but more specifically, it means muting in horn. What should I do? If I hand stop, as the notes are so low, it's nearly inaudible. But as far as I remember, I heard something like muting in the CD recording. I have to play this piece in exam soon, anybody can help? And do we use double tonguing in the "Agitato" parts of the piece? It enables me to play faster but the tonguing is not clean if I double tongue them. One last question, any tips on playing the glissando in the piece? I just randomly press the keys, but it seems odd sometimes if I play the notes unevenly. Regards, Simone ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] various thoughts
This is a general post to both lists, so please excuse the double posting; I have just a couple of thoughts on some threads that just popped up on the list. Firstly, when discussing vibrato, if one wants to dive into this issue in depth, just as in most other aspects of performance, you have to consider areas of performance other than horn playing. There is still a great degree of disagreement as to the proper use of vibrato both in strings and voice for the renaissance and baroque periods. You can hear examples of both, but I personally feel that as music is really a medium of contrasts that the use of vibrato in particular phrases and styles is an enhancement when the majority of the piece is played without. When one moves into the classical and romantic periods the prevailing sentiment is for more sustained use of vibrato, and the composers wrote with that in their subconscious mind. To hear the music of Heinrich Schutz, for example played and sung with a modern heavy vibrato muddies it up tremendously, whereas if I were to hear the Brahms vi olin concerto without a much greater use, that would sound irregular and perhaps even improper to my ears. specifically regarding horn vibrato, I enjoy the tasteful use of vibrato, especially the Hungarian and Czech players. Listen to Ferenc Tarjanis' Haydn concerto recordings to hear what I am talking about. If, however, every phrase was played with a constant quaver, then I would more than likely get a little queasy long before it was through. When one is learning the horn, Vibrato should be one of those items that is a taught as an additional technique, after one has established a solid, consistent, desirable tone quality. If only every horn player would sing in a choir too, then more of this would become an inherent understanding of our physical natures. Vibrato is natural, but definitely controllable, and should be thought of in that way when applied to horn. On the Home Depot issue - as an ex Home Depot employee, one can certainly find nearly every tool and materials needed to build a horn. A poor quality, copper or steel horn, and not one I would use on stage. One can, however equip themselves very nicely in regards to instrument repair and construction - and if one wants the tools to take apart a horn, then the Depot is your place to be! I understand that Joss was not making any statements about the quality of the end product, but one could certainly do worse. One last opinion is regarding those times when a lister makes the type of personal statements that border on pure boasting, bragging, or outright arrogance. Usually I immediately feel the urge to slam that person, but often after letting things fall into context, I can be benevolent and let them go their merry way, as I realize that no matter what they may say, unless I am in personal contact with them, it really has no effect upon how I live daily. I do think that a polite, strong, caring reply to put them straight is necessary, and thankfully those on this list who are universally considered to be in a position to do so, do so. Let us not quash anyones self-confidence, but remember that true self-confidence is one that can withstand trials and tribulations, even the occassional abuse, and remain true. I daily enjoy this list, I always learn something from the many wonderful people on it, and only hope that when I contribute I am benefitting even on person who reads it. Carpe cornu!!! Paxmaha - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Out of Print
Does anyone know where I can get the Stich-Punto Sonata for Horn and Bassoon? Actually, there is a piano part, too. It is out of print--have called all the major sheet music companies. Thanks! Barb Benson Executive Director Colorado Plateau Field Institute www.cpfieldinstitute.org ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Auditions
Hi Jan, There are some great articles in the Horn Call. You should also search the archives of the horn lists as this topic comes up on occasion. Regards, Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Goedike recording
Does anybody know where I can find a recording of the Goedike horn Concerto? I need to play it for a competition next year and would like to hear it first. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Auditions
Hello everybody! I am studying in Academy of Music and one part of my graduation is going to be short writing task ( like so-called research etc ). I want to write about horn auditions. Main idea of the task can be just to give information, what is happening? How musicains usually get the job in the orchestra? What kind of requirements ( repertoire, number of round and so one )? What is the difference between Europe and USA... Perhaps its good to talk about auditions anxiety, how to prepare ... Can anyone give me some hints, what kind of sources could i use ( books, good links in the net ). Of course i am writing this work mostly based on my own experiences, but could be really nice to hear some suggestions, thoughts. Thank you! Jan Pentshuk ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] The Rite of Spring
It's ok, we all knew you meant Heldenleben! the other Chris --- Christopher Bonner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please disregard previous post of CSO/Fritz ReinerI have had too much to > drink tonight, and misread what piece we were discussing. > Chris > - Original Message - > From: "Fred Baucom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] The Rite of Spring > > > > I like the old (1970's?) Cleveland recording with Boulez. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 7:03 PM > > Subject: [Hornlist] The Rite of Spring > > > > > > > I'm interested in gathering a list consensus on Stravinski's Rite of > > > Springnamely, favorite recording, best performance/interpretation, > or > > > combination of both. All opinions are welcome! > > > > > > Thanks, Charles > > > ___ > > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > set your options at > > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net > > > > ___ > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/cbonner%40swfla.rr.com > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
