[Hornlist] From The Oriental Schmidt House...
Since there's not much going on here on the list, and since this is going on over at e-Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7317410797 ...I'd like to take this opportunity to inquire about the innate goodness of these horns. For those too jaded to follow the link, it's a YHR-863, Yamaha's version of a Schmidt piston-change valve double. I remember seeing these in a Yamaha brochure back in the early 90's but I've never actually seen a real one. This one on e-Bay has been listed at least three times (possibly more, I don't know) and has gone, not only unsold, but unbid-upon. I saw it was $3,500 USD with no bids, then $3,200 and no bids, and now it's listed at $3,000 and six days left to do business. The BUY-IT-NOW price has always been $3,500. Q: Considered on their own terms, how do these horns play? Q: Compared to a real Schmidt, how do these horns play? How's the high Bb? Did Yamaha's acoustic engineers succeed in replicating the "burr" (Dave Krehbiel's term) on this note? Q: Do these horns project? ...or do they just make pretty--but local--noise? And no, I'm not going to bid on it. It's just curiosity on my part. I won't be driving out to Bellevue, Washington to try it out, so I'm asking for a "virtual trial" on the list here. If you've owned or played one, I'm interested in hearing from you. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] How Did They Find My Tux?
My son plays tr*mbone (family list, no cursing) in the local high school band, and today he received a letter from his band director containing instructions for their upcoming spring concert. Well, his director also e-mailed these instructions to me. I haven't yet read the whole thing because the following sentence shook me to the foundations: *** "Members of the Symphonic Band should arrive at 6:45 p.m. in your formal outfit." *** My question is, "How-the-heck did the Symphonic Band members know where I kept my tuxedo?" ...and exactly *how many* of them does he expect will fit into it?" It's bad enough that, just this morning, I shot a bear in my pajamas... but now I have to put up with THIS? jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tone quality
> I'm going to indulge myself and repost Cabbage's last message > There's a lot of dross on the list. This is the real deal Yeah, I especially like the part where he said that some horn players are brighter than others. Y'know, I've noticed that myself. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Valve Bearing Slack
> I figure GO-90 will do a great job of quieting the valves Actually, 90-weight gear oil is not much heavier than 30-weight motor oil. They're measured on differing SAE scales. (this was not meant to chide or correct, just a point of interest) I use Singer sewing machine oil. It's heavy enough to do the job, but light enough not to clog. It's got anti-corrosive properties, and it mixes easily with (trumpet) valve oil should you need to lighten it a bit. K1 kerosene also works well as a thinner, but there is a smell associated with it that some people don't like, so I mention the valve oil for this reason. There are several other oils that might work as well, but the Singer oil was on the shelf at the fabric store where my son used to work on weekends, so I use it. I think regular old "machine oil" might be fine, but I KNOW the Singer oil works wonderfully. Very light, very clear, nice "dripper tip" bottle, and no stinky. ...though you may prefer a little stench now-and-then. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Haydn Concerto for Two Horns
>> I am searching for a piano reduction of the Haydn >> Concerto for two horns K100 > It's hard to believe that Mozart was only a teenager when he wrote this piece That's nothing. You should've seen how young ***I*** was! jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Dennis Brain's Stereo Recordings... (PING! Particularly Mr Hirsch)
> The Hindemith recording is in genuine stereo as far as I know Interesting... I'll have to dig out the CD version and listen again, but I must tell you what I went through to come to the (apparently faulty) "conclusion" that the Hindemith was in mono. I used to be a real audio buff, but only listened to other's equipment, my own being "listenable" but quite pedestrian. And since my records have been in storage for years, I only have access to a very few of them. About 10-years ago I got the chance to listen to a few of the tracks from the Dennis Brain/Japanese LP reissue box set (with beautiful reproductions of the old shaded orange Angel labels) on my friend's $10,000 "all-components-carefully-hand-picked" stereo system. When we got to the Hindemith, my ears perked up. My old 50's-issue Angel LP was mono, so-marked and so-witnessed. It had been a while since I'd heard it, but it was the only version with which I was familiar... and this Japanese LP version sounded different. Very different: like stereo to me! It wasn't what I'd characterize as "wide stereo," but there seemed to be some depth there; depth missing from what I'd remembered of the original. However, my buddy, a rabid audiophile (as his system will attest), didn't think so. "Very good mono," he proclaimed it, "and possibly electronically diddled-with, but not true stereo." His receiver didn't have a "MONO" switch, so I couldn't ask him to A/B it between MONO and STEREO, so I asked him to skew the balance from one side to the other. Skew he did, but he wasn't convinced, being convinced that I so badly wanted it to be "Dennis Brain in true stereo" that he could've unplugged one speaker and I still would've continued holding tight to my "IT'S STEREO!" side of the debate. And so it came to be that he, having the bigger stereo, took round 1. I took his word for it, but perhaps I shouldn't have? I can't wait to re-hear the Hindemith and I plan to see if I can dig through the hundreds of storage boxes and find it on CD... today. Thanks Graeme, this has made my day... particularly the part about there being some Brahms in stereo! jrc PS: Have you heard of the "unintended stereo" recordings of Glen Miller (early 40's), Duke Ellington (1929) and others? Ever in search of better, clearer sound, some record companies would record from more than one location in the studio, then master (and issue) the best-sounding one. Some of these "alternately-miked" performances still exist, and you know what you get when you simultaneously record a performance from two microphones, don't you? Yep, stereo! The Duke Ellington is light-years better than you'd think possible. The Glen Miller is simply stunning... at least to a sound buff. I don't know if I could've withstood playing in the Glen Miller group (surely they were rehearsed to death?), but they almost single-handedly raised the bar on what was possible in a musical ensemble... this coming from me, a "not-really a Glen Miller fan." ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Dennis Brain's Stereo Recordings... (PING! Particularly Mr Hirsch)
...seem to be hovering around the number "ZERO," with not much chance of that score improving. As far as I know, there are no stereo recordings of DB, but perhaps some of you know something I don't. The best-sounding recording he made (that I'm aware of) is the Hindemith Horn Concerto with Hindemith conducting. I have the Hindemith concerto on an old 1950's US release on the Angel label (B&W cover), as well as having it on a set of Japanese reissue LP's ***AND*** a Japanese CD set. Many of my old Philharmonia releases (likewise, on the Angel label here in the US) are in perfect condition, and appear unplayed, but most sound as if they were recorded on an 8-track tape through a microphone hung in the men's restroom somewhere in Basingstoke. (tip-of-the-hat to Gilbert & Sullivan for immortalizing that British town in the musical comedy, "Ruddigore." as you surely know, "Basingstoke" was the secret word spoken to Mad Margaret to stave off one of her frequent fits of maniacal laughter. It's been about 30-years, but I remember asking our orchestra director [Brian Daubney, whom we imported each year for the next play] to tell me about this town whose name was, (and I quote) "...teems with hidden meaning." Daubney told me that the script footnotes Basingstoke as being, "a small town on the English coast, which is of absolutely NO importance") So, considering the quality of the captured sound, which of DB's recordings sounds the best to your ears? So far, I vote for the Hindemith, but I've only heard what's here on my shelf. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] The Schilke 27 KGB Unit... (was: no subject)
> I have a horn teacher that basically insists that all of his horn students > play a shilke 27 in gold(preferable) when they are of a certain skill level I hope I never get that good! Also, what mouthpiece does he have them play when they get REALLY good? And let's not forget the wearing of proper underwear, remembering that, for maximum homogeneity, the entire section should wear the same size. (perhaps I made a point in there somewhere, unless I misjudged the list's Threshold Of Concept Awareness) *** > The guy knows what he is talking about Perhaps, but it can be said with certainty that he knows what he LIKES! *** >> I have seen Clevenger's mouthpiece, and don't >> recall the diameter as particularly small Does he (still) play a 27? If so, it's small alright. My wife played a Schilke 27 for over twenty-five years, then switched to a Lawson mouthpiece (all of which share a basic concept and similar dimensions, so the "which one?" questions don't matter) before taking delivery of a new Lawson horn. Before her new horn arrived, she started playing the Lawson mouthpiece on her Holton H179 (aka: "The Kenosha Commode," aka: "The Krome Kannon," aka: "The Midwest Megaphone," ad infinitum). From the first moment she plugged the Lawson piece into her Holton, the difference in her sound was astounding. All for the better, and the couple high-register notes that went into hiding after a few days came right back. Range? No change. Sound? Suddenly three-dimensional and "alive." All subjective terms, I know... but I couldn't find sufficient words to describe her dramatic improvement. Bear in mind that SHE is not really aware of anything being any different, and says, "What's the big deal? It feels the same to me." But she is not her audience. We are. All the rest of us who play with her can hear it, and this same "interesting sound" scenario continued anew--tenfold--when her Lawson horn finally arrived. Is the Lawson mouthpiece and/or horn "better," or does it just better suit her? I won't answer that because it would spoil all the fun of your quest. ...but I have my opinions. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Changing mpc when changing horn
> I'm curious to know how many of you change your mouthpiece, > and in what way, to accomodate the difference in the horn. When switching horns I use the same mouthpiece. However, I find that I have a much cleaner lower-register if I change diapers instead. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Good Horn Charma
> Ever show up and get surprised by whom else is there? "Who" else is there. Q: "Who is there?" A: "He is there" Q: "Whom is it for?" A" "It is for him." "Who" and "he" are two sides of the same equations that include "whom" and "him." Well, enough of that from someone who took 2 and 1/2 years to get through 12th grade English. I don't reckon I've had quite that kind of a "surprise" experience, but I have showed up for what appeared to be relatively low-key jobs only to find people of extraordinary musical abilities. There was a concert years ago with the Long Bay Symphony (in Myrtle Beach, SC) and the 1st trumpet player was hired as a fill-in for the regular principal. But from the moment I heard the first notes from this "pickup" player, I was stunned. All weekend was a brass and/or music lesson for me. "Pictures At An Exhibition" was on the bill, so I don't mean he simply sounded good on light, airy pop stuff: This Cat Had The Chops. Then, last year, there was a high school choir concert where my wife and I were hired to augment the school's student orchestra for Rutter's "Requiem." There was a young lady who stood directly behind us that was incredible. I hope music finds a place for her someday, and vice/versa. Then there was this one pick-up orchestra gig we played where the 1st horn player was AB-SO-LUTELY the loudest horn I've ever heard. The thing is, he played the whole stinkin' program that way, so his "brass mechanics" had to be in good order... if ill-applied! I reckon his sound couldn't have carried out front as well as a trombone's, but nevertheless, within the horn section it was incredibly uncomfortable. It was just about as painful sitting NEXT to him as sitting IN FRONT OF a bass trombone. Did I mention how loudly he could play? Huge horn (I won't name names), huge mouthpiece and no center to his sound. No "shimmer," no "glisten," no "velvet," and no "accompanying." Friends, it was all 120mm Howitzers, all the time. His sound was interesting for about the first 30-seconds or so. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Moss Side Story
> Ah this fair and pleasant land! You gave us Bax and Vaughn-Williams, we gave you aluminum foil. We kept Vaughn-Williams. jrc PS: Could you please re-send Bax? It's apparent to me that he never made it here. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Fingering question
> Sorry, sorry, your philosophy is not right
Now look what's happened. I try to remove pedagogical thorn from the
Professor's learned
foot by simply explaining his meaning, and the Teutonic ("supertonic?")
crossbow gets
vectored my way. Professor, this has GOT to be a language thing. In my post I
espoused no
philosophy, and you spent several paragraphs in what I call, "vehement
agreement." In
other words, your content was negative, but you agreed with me. But allow me to
say this:
*** I was merely repeating what YOU had said to begin with! ***
(and also agreeing, BTW)
And I also might add here, I agree with what you said concerning 1st-valve Vs.
open for
the D2 (4th line, F-horn). And not that it matters, but the "deficits" you
mention are not
among my many problems on the horn. This open "D" has an almost surreal
"softness" about
it and, as you can tell, I have the normal problems associated with trying to
use WORDS to
explain the nearly unexplainable feeling one gets from "kissing" a downy-soft
open-D
across the string section. Like explaining the concept of love to a Martian,
"You've felt
it, or you ain't." (proper Southern US grammar, I assure you)
***
> If you depress the 1st valve, the action & bad
> intonation is just transposed for one full step
Well, yes and no. You are correct here but, in defense of whoever should've
been on the
receiving end of your pointed prose (certainly not me... in this instance), you
may
continue adding valves to your "flat 5th harmonic" test and find that the more
valves you
depress, the sharper that 5th harmonic becomes. When fingered 1-2-3 on the
F-side, an A#
just below the staff is not very sharp, is it? This example is--of
course--purely
hypothetical as one would never play A#/Bb with "all three," but since your
translation
slurred my meaning, and you have prosaically painted me into the proverbial
corner, I have
used the logic of your own example to insure that it's Professor Pizka's
footprints in the
shiny, new paint, not mine!
All in good fun though, Professor. No blood, no casualties! Just another rainy
day in the
Southeastern USA. Must get to a "King And I" rehearsal now. The King
(originally played in
the movie by Yul Brenner) is bald, but I still have some left.
jrc
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Fingering question
> Hans, I don't see why you are answering a question from someone > playing a single F horn with Bb fingerings? Maybe I missed something, but it made sense to me to liken a 4th line "D" played on F-side's 1st valve to "G" above the staff played on the Bb-side's 1st valve. Think, "What's good for the goose..." I would belabor my point by lecturing on how those two notes--on those two sides of a horn--are equivalents, but I reckon everyone who cares about it already knows, and everyone who does not isn't paying attention anyway. Pressing 1st valve for fourth line "D" on an F horn gives one something to do while waiting for a good slur to emerge (betwixt the open C, D, & E) but it's good to know that one should get good at moving around those notes without using valve action. The comment about playing this fingering against a section of Bb-1st&2nd'ers was well taken. Moving around the harmonic series (either open F, or choose a key by depressing the valve(s) of choice) of the F-horn was something Dave Krehbiel used to push on me, and something I figured I could do 'til I heard him do it. He impressed upon me the fact that this is HOW THE HORN IS PLAYED, and one mustn't get too far away from that concept. Use the valves to ASSIST in re-creating this proper technique, and not allowing them to become the technique proper. Another cool morning in upstate South Carolina, but the Solar Welding Torch of summer is surely biding its time in the skies, waiting for the first time I blink so it can sneak in and broil my little corner of the world. Stay safe, play well, and do NOT pull the trigger unless you really mean it. (yes, horn-related, and not Fort Sumter. Although...) jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Foam On The Range...
1980, Travis AFB, California. I was in the band there and successfully talked my commander into ordering a Paxman Model 20 (as I recall) double horn. Forget the horn (for now), I want to talk about the case. Does anyone on the list own a screwbell Paxman made in the last few years? If so, could you tell me if the cases still have that nifty cloth-covered, molded form foam that the horn--essentially--"snaps" into? If someone can answer this, how about giving it a go. You see, I have an idea... jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horns - The Universal "Cor"rency (was: Schmid Stop Arms)
> Considering how nice some of those early 20th century horns are, and > how inexpensive they were as Geyers sold for about $200.00 in the > thirties Paul, while I'm not exactly ***disagreeing*** with you, we need to put that into context and, perhaps, shock you. A new Ford Model-T sold in the $300-range in the twenties. Let's assume the $200 Geyer price is correct and go with it. That would mean that the 1930 correction formula would be (roughly), NEW CAR x 0.7 = NEW HORN So, I think the average new car price in the US today is around $25,000. Applying our Official Correction Factor would tell us that a "new" Geyer should cost, (sound of gears turning...) $25,000 x 0.7 = (yikes!) $17,500 Which--of course--makes my new $9,000 Lawson the Steal/Deal of the century; both this one AND the last! jrc PS: My combination Cajun/American Indian blood makes me appreciate a good deal, so perhaps I'll get on the phone and order a couple more Lawsons as a hedge against inflation! As for investments: What else compares with a great horn for universal acceptability around the world? My advice? Don't leave home without it! ~r ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Private e-mail
> Someone mentioned to me the other day that Mark Almond > has left the Philharmonia > I know he had planned to go into medicine but was > waylaid by the playing bug There was recently (back around Christmas holidays) something to this effect on the delightfully-chatty Paxman "Horn Gossip Message Board." I have no details, but if you posted to that board you'd have 25 answers in the first 10-minutes. Of course, you might not wish to have had 24 of them, but the one would be the doozy. Haven't been to that site in a while as my aging parents' health has chosen 2005 to be The Official Year The Fudge Hits The Fan. But I'll bet it's linked off the Paxman site. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mozart vs JMHaydn
>> WABotte: "Have fun, drive fast and take chances." > I believe this would account, sadly, for why those of us around my age and > younger have only heard Denis Brain's playing on scratchy old recordings. Pretty sure DB went to sleep at the wheel. A husband and wife saw him run off the road that morning; he'd been driving all night. He was known to not waste time, but I'm not sure if I ever heard anyone say he drove recklessly. Of course, I wasn't there at the time. The morning he died, I was still a couple of weeks away from birthday #3. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Recycled Music...
> ...the motif that occurs in twice in the first movement of the 3rd > Mozart Horn concerto (la da da da, la da da da, la da da da dee)? > Well I heard that same motif several times in one of Mozart's Piano > concertos Would a simple check of Opus numbers tell us whether the piano got OUR stuff, or we got HIS? Inquiring minds, etc... jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Actions You've Had to Take During Performances (file under: "Disasters Narrowly Averted")
> So, anyone else out there with more stories? Here's good one, and though I was only a spectator, I was--as 1st horn--waiting to bring my section into battle, making me a most interested, as well as "involved," spectator. As you read this, give thanks that not everyone around you has perfect pitch while simultaneously offering double thanks that at least SOME do. There is a compendium of orchestra/choir pieces that were originally--and separately--written to honor fallen cancer victims. It's called, "Sing For The Cure," and it's often used as a fund-raiser concert for the Susan G Komen (pardon if my spelling of her name is wrong) Foundation. I've performed it twice, and it's likely that many of you have done likewise in your own region. Well, there is a somewhat-scary part where a trio of ladies must enter into a cascading downward pattern, preceded only by the last notes of the cellos (in a foreign key), and then a few seconds of silence. The soprano has to come in on (I'm going to guess here) a top-staff F# after last having heard only a low Bb from the cello section, and that note having been preceded by several seconds of silence. After the cascading trio entrance, the piano enters in the new key that was established (we hope) by the trio. As you may have guessed, in rehearsals the soprano nailed it EVERY TIME, and the two lower voices that followed her entrance based their pitch, of course, relative to hers. Then came the concert. I sat in the section, ready to follow the piano in after trio. The cellos died away, then silence, then the soprano entered... about a major 2nd low! The other two ladies, of course, entered in this "new" key established by our, to date, unsuspecting soprano. My wife (2nd horn) turned slowly toward me as a chill spread across the entire orchestra. Everything was okay for the moment, but within the next 6-bars or so the piano was going to come in and, when he did, it was going to a sobering moment of payback for the horrible aural train wreck that was unfolding--in achingly slow-motion--right before our collective ears. It was only my devotion to duty and my horn colleagues that I remained in my seat! Then the pianist's hands raised in preparation of the inevitable... But then something magic happened: The piano entered in IN THE SAME WRONG KEY AS THE SOPRANO STARTED, waited for their note to die, and then deftly modulated--extemporaneously--into the proper key so we horns could enter, shaken but not stirred. What a night! In case you should think I'm embellishing, I'm willing to name names. The brilliant pianist's name is E. Lane Moore, and he is a high-school chorus director near here. In addition to being one the finest musicians I've ever worked with (and there have been some), he also gets my personal lifetime achievement award in the category of, "Best Extemporaneous Victory Pulled Kicking And Screaming From The Jaws Of Certain Defeat And Abject Failure." Now if I can only find a large-enough trophy for the inscription! jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn and High Voice pieces
> It is quite simple, just kicking into very > hard, the high "d" will be available Do not wear the steel-toe boots or you may get an Eb, forcing the group to transpose on-sight. jrc in SC (who will NOT sing while the Professor plays) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn and High Voice pieces (as well as the not-so-high)
> By time that was recorded in 1987, Sutherland wasn't her > old self vocally and I'm sure that her tessitura dropped > sufficiently to sing a part for mezzo Which brings up an interesting thing I recently noticed. For years I've listened to the old Philharmonia recording of Strauss's "Four Last Songs," with soprano Elizabeth Swarzkopf and you-know-who (Dennis Brain) playing the beautiful horn solo near the close of the "September" movement. Pardon me, but I get a bit weak in the knees just typing about it. Anyway, I've never performed the "Four Last..." so I know the music only from listening to my old vinyl LP. I've memorized sections of the horn part and have played along with the record simply because that's as close as I've gotten to playing the piece. Then I heard the Philadelphia orchestra was doing a television broadcast of an all-Strauss concert, and that it would include, "Four Last Songs." I was happy as a puppy with a stinky old shoe. So, having only rabbit ears on my TV, I called a friend and arranged for him to tape it for me. He did this, and I picked up the tape and headed home, ready to play along with "September" again. And then; problems... I just always ASSUMED (my emphasis) that "September" was in the key of D-flat, putting the horns in A-flat. Not so, or at least not always. I don't have perfect pitch, no matter WHAT my wife claims, but when "September started it sounded awfully bright to my ears. So I picked up my horn and... ZOWIE! They're in D-major! Apparently Swarzkopf wasn't comfortable in the higher key. QUESTION #1: How common is it to move the key around on famous works to accommodate famous artists? QUESTION #2: Can one order parts in the different key, or is someone paid to transcribe the parts into the new, or (heaven forbid) does the music director just announce, "Okay orchestra, let's take "September," once more from the beginning, and down a half-step if you please! Okay, ready...???" Well, the horns and trumpets would be, but there might be some audible groaning. Just wondering aloud, jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
> If you would like an affordable "Schmidt" style horn, > then it seems to me to be priced about right Ahh, the "Italian" connection again. One lister wrote that he didn't know much about this particular horn, but that all the little hardware pieces looked like what he'd seen in the past on Italian "stencil" type horns. *** > It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt Thanks Jim, that's what I was after. I've seen a half-dozen or so over the years, but don't know enough about Schmidts to *positively* I.D. them across all decades they were made. I think I'll just let this one stay right where it is. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
If you know anything about Schmidt horns (the old piston thumb-valve models from Germany), then I would ask that you go here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16215&item=7302616771&rd=1 ...and take a look at this "Schmidt model" horn listed on E-bay. The seller has good feedback (meaning people have been happy with his auctions), but there are a few red flags that pop up with this horn. The seller just MIGHT BE playing things a bit coy on ID'ing this horn. I used to have a Schmidt, and have played and/or seen a total of about FIVE of them, NONE of which looked like this horn. The tubing and layout is VERY close, but, for me, none of the detail bits and pieces ring true. I'm aware that many "Schmidt-like" horns have been made over the years; Conn had one and so did, I'm told, many other manufacturers. However, I'm not enough of an old horn expert to tell if this E-bay horn is simply a later model genuine Schmidt, or a pattern copy. For me, several red flags pop up on this horn. They are, MECHANICAL ROTARY VALVE LINKAGE: Perhaps they came this way, but none I've seen were so-equipped. LEADPIPE SHAPE: Starting at the mouthpiece, the leadpipe on the E-bay horn follows the curve of the bell-section (normal), but then, after only a short distance, it suddenly makes a turn across the middle of the horn, like a Holton or Conn leadpipe does. This is UNLIKE any of the 4-or-5 Schmidts I've seen before. On all the others, the leadpipe continues to follow the curve of the bell-section until THE VERY BOTTOM of the horn (as the player holds it), then turns upward and heads toward the main tuning slide. Or at least that's the way I remember things. LEADPIPE LENGTH: This Schmidt has a SHORTER leadpipe than the others I've seen, prompting the question, "Is this a Schmidt at all?" 3rd VALVE SLIDE ON F-SIDE: All the Schmidts I've seen used the common "3rd-valve-swan's-neck-swoop," on the F-side, and ONLY THE Bb slide was a simple 6-piece patchwork of 2-curves and 4-straight pieces. The E-bay horn has both 3rd valve slides of the 6-piece construction. VALVE LEVERS, BRACES, VALVE CAPS, ETC: All unfamiliar to me. I have my father-in-law's Schmidt single-F, which is a later model; born after WWII. Even so, most all the little widgets and details are very much like my old "between-the-wars" Schmidt double. But this horn has none of these familiar pieces. Also, if it's NOT a genuine Schmidt, then what-the-howdy is it? The "Carl Fischer" inscription on the bell appears on many true Schmidts and, as I understand it, ID's them as post WWII models, imported by Fischer. Perhaps Fischer also had his own "Schmidts" made? If not a true Schmidt, how good a horn would this one be? What say ye? jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Karl Hill Contact Info...
Good afternoon all, Does anyone have either a snail-mail or E-mail address for Karl Hill? I've heard that he makes a Schmidt-style double horn and can't find a thing on the Internet about either the horns or him. Someone please tell me all you know about the horns, the man, and the contact info. Playing impressions would be nice to hear. Anyone played one enough to form an opinion? I remember Yamaha had a Schmidt-style horn in their US brochures back around 12-15 years ago, but I've never seen one nor heard from anyone who's played one. Thanks for any info and/or impressions you might have, jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] It Couldn't Be... (Szelling To The Highest Bidder)
I don't spend much time on E-bay, but this caught my eye: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14278&item=6149931076&rd=1 Confound it if that doesn't look like George Szell! The picture shown is backwards, but perhaps the slide is just loaded the wrong way. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Singing and Playing at the Same Time
> You will hear these other two notes even if the primary tones are out of > tune, but the secondary tones will be *very* out of tune I'll "amen" that. It seems to me that, if your intonation on the PLAYED and SUNG notes is off 2%, then the RESULTANT will be off by 50%. Feels like balancing a running chainsaw on one's nose. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tippet now Wigglesworth
> What is being said about Tippett has been said by > critics & others about many composers :-) I don't know Tippett, but I was just about to type a paragraph-or-two about how some things generally considered bad really are... ummm, "bad." Then I followed this link to the book mentioned: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/039332009X/102-7205639-7607322 And read the review by, "Reviewer: P.M. Reilich "12x88" (Los Angeles)" If you search the page for the text string, "Reilich" you will find that he (or she, though he writes like the "he" that I'll wager he is) has more eloquently stated the flawed logic that I've heard applied to substantiate academia's claim of occupying high-ground in the "much new music is simply before its time and audiences just have unsophisticated ears" debate. I've played a lot of stuff where the horn part just lays on the page like yesterday's cow pie. The composer had NO idea what he wanted the horn (and other instruments) to say. All he (or she) knew is that he needed an Eb at the bottom of the staff, and that the horns weren't busy so let 'em handle it. Brahms (for example) seemed to not simply write "good horn parts," but also wrote in such a way that one can scarcely imagine any other instrument playing the horn's notes. He wrote for us. Not a superfluous note on the page. In 19th-century Europe, the best and brightest did well to be interested in music. Live music must surely have been the "happening thing" then. Nowadays our best and brightest go, not into music, but the technologies, leaving the less-than best and brightest to compose grand atonal operas starring people dressed up as cats. No names mentioned, but have you ever noticed that the beautiful song, "I Don't Know How To Love Him," (from "Jesus Christ Superstar") sounds familiar? It does because it's "pinched" (check your British dictionary). It is, very simply put, the second movement of the Mendelssohn violin concerto. I noticed this upon first hearing it 30-years ago, so you can quote me on that. I hereby officially lay claim to the much-cherished (by me) label of "old fogey," and promise to wear it like a war medal for the rest of my days. jrc in SC PS: This discussion really does come at a bad time for me as I just started writing music last week. Perhaps I'll hire space in the local paper and verbally cut off my own legs, reducing critics to anti-climacticity. (don't bother thanking me; we *needed* a word like that) ~r ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] BERP
> What do folk think about the BERP? Quieter and less malodorous than its evil flatulance twin! jrc in SC PS: I've tried one just to see how it worked. Interesting, but I just buzz on the mouthpiece now and again for a quick "check-up." Though it well might go without saying, in this case, it won't: A good "euphonious" mouthpiece buzz (actually rather treble and "spitty") sound is just as important as a good sound on the horn. One needn't explain the hand-in-hand nature of these two. The BERP allows one to remove the horn from the equation, which gives one less thing to fuss over, and it can really drive home the Garbage In-Garbage Out theory. But it seems to me that, if the BERP were to be used to fix a problem, like any piece of technology meant to remove the need for a human teacher, it does not. You'd *still* need a REALLY good player to guide you towards The Quality Buzz... which is all a BERP is good for in the first place. In fact, it may be even MORE important to have a Jedi guide when using a BERP since most players have at least SOME concept of horn sound, but wouldn't automatically know a good buzz from a faulty one. It's possibly worth a try, but combine its use with much thought and consideration. And Lawrence, since I know you ARE that teacher, I'd say go for it, study it and, if it passes muster, *integrate* into your teaching. You can, of course, just buzz the mouthpiece alone to see what you'll think about the BERP. For those who don't know, the big difference with the BERP is that one should put the BERP in place and be compelled to hold the horn regularly and play "normally," but just making the buzzing sound while moving the fingers and "playing." Most students are amazed at, for instance, missing a drop to "A" below the staff, then immediately buzzing the mouthpiece on that note and finding they're not even close to "making" the note with the buzz. Garbage In, etc... ~r ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Lessons being taught on the Memphis list
> I'm dying to meet the first horn player > who learns to play completely online Yeah, what a hoot! I learned to play by listening to records, so the next generation of "me" will probably learn from the Internet. No musical knowledge needed, just a broadband-connected laptop sitting next to him in the orchestra: *** Dearest Professor, Entshuldigen sie, bitte; was ist gemeint "Schmettern?" (please answer quickly as I've only 12 more bars to count before 'Ich muss speil') Signed, Ihre Dickkopf Student auf der Internet, Unsichtbar Brain Prn. Horn, Opera Of The Air *** ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
> Perhaps your mistake stems from the fact that you > do not play with professional trumpet players > I am surprised that someone on this list does not > know the harmonic series Scott, I'm not sure where you're coming from with the above, but I'm going to assume that there's a much better person connected to your keyboard than the above makes you out to be. You are okay, and you are among friends. So, please read on... I think it comes down to, "What is a pedal tone?" Bringing in the players is a red herring. I'm not so much interested in what "some trumpet players" can do (btw: I, myself, can do it on a trumpet), therefore I never mentioned the players. I'm interested in what the trumpet can, and cannot, do; and most important to me, "Why" or "Why not?" Of course the instrument requires a player, but the instrument itself also has some characteristics. I can easily play nice, big, fat, usable pedal tones on the tuba, trombone, baritone horn, euphonium, Eb Smellophone, Horn, Flugelhorn, and Posthorn (both valved and natural). But a regular Bb trumpet just kinda drops off the cliff down there, and the pitch and "feel" you get makes it a pretty useless area to dwell in. There's no real "slot" for the notes, just a nebulous black hole you could throw a cat through. Yes, I can play this fundamental low C (concert Bb) on the trumpet. And yes, I used to play trumpet, and I got paid for it. I was not, however, a "professional" trumpet player. And I can also make a tuner smile upon my flatulent, low-key trumpet machinations, but I've never consider them pedal tones. Just for something to do, I decided to (with no foreknowledge of what I was up to) consult two the professional trumpet players that I obviously "do not play with" (chortle) to get their opinions on the matter. Not that this is the final word on the matter, but their thinking is certainly valid as they make a living with their trumpets. Their thoughts? Though both of them practice the trumpet's lower register, when confronted with my original question of, "Does a Bb trumpet have pedal tones?" both answered, "no." I think Strauss (others?) actually called for the trumpet to play notes in this out-of-range area of the trumpet. So, I'd like to not argue about what a trumpet does, and talk about what characterizes a "pedal tone." Also, I don't mind being wrong. If consensus is reached that what a Bb trumpet does on and around its fundamental can be called a pedal tone, then it means I've picked up a wrong definition of the phrase "pedal tone." jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
> I wonder if you meant this (use of word "facetious") seriously? Good morning, Benno, Have you the audacity to doubt my veracity, and to insinuate that I am engaged insidiously with wanton prevarication? Nah, I reckon not. The trumpet "pedal tones" referred to are not supported by the trumpet's acoustics, and are not true notes, but rather, just the flatulent bleatings of the player; sounds in which the trumpet is a most reluctant partner... but you already knew that. My tongue was firmly out-of-cheek when I described such sounds as "facetious," which means: *** Facetious [adj] - cleverly amusing in tone; "a bantering tone"; "facetious remarks"; "tongue-in-cheek advice" *** I don't know this word "faecetious" but have to wonder if it's a non-American English spelling of the same word I employed. Now mind you, this "fictitious" word I know well, and it directly applies to my daring exploits on the horn! Back to your regularly-scheduled programming. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
> ...but believe me, trumpets will play the pedal tones!! Sorry Scott, Looks like you'd better pour yourself a bowl of cornflakes and sit back. Trumpets will NOT play pedal tones. The only way a trumpet can play a pedal tone is if we were to change the definition of the term "pedal tone." Let's not. You see, if you have three bean burritos and a large Coke for lunch you can simply wait for the right "moment," stick a piccolo down the back of your shorts and demonstrate how the piccolo can play 6-ledger lines below the bass clef staff. But Scott, it wouldn't be a pedal tone. In the parlance of this (and any other) brass instrument list, words have meaning. "Pedal tone" has a meaning, and it is the fundamental of the instrument's employed length. This length can (of course) be changed by the use of valves. So here's one for you... CAUTION - THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT WILL USE "AS-WRITTEN" PITCHES. IF YOU CAN'T REFER TO "AS-WRITTEN" PITCHES ON A LIST OF NOTHING BUT HORN PLAYERS, THEN YOU NEED A NEW HOBBY: I CAN play the basement "C" that's been talked-up here recently. However, I cannot play the F-horn's "fundamental "C" I can play the pedal F on the Bb horn, then go chromatically downward 'til I'm resting on the C (trigger, 1 + 3), but I cannot play that same pitch as an open note on the F-horn. Oh, once in a blue moon I can, but only about 3-times in 35 years. Trumpets do not play pedal tones, they play facetious notes, as outlined both in my burrito story and Professor Pizka's "special word" which I haven't looked up, but probably translates roughly to the English word "f*rt." So, here's what I've noticed; feel free to disagree, but be sure to have your cornflakes on standby: Bb Trumpet - cylindrical, but can't play PT's (also, C, D, Eb and both A & Bb Pic trumpets... NO PT's) Cornet - conical, but still no PT's Vienna rotary trumpet - MORE conical, but no PT's Flugelhorn - even more conical with tiny leadpipe, mouthpiece bore and smaller tubing, PLAYS PT's Eb Alto horn (and all its evil kin) - pedal tones out the wazoo... and sounds like it! Horn - conical to (ahem!) beat the band, Bb side does very usable PT's. F-side can, but it's tough to make a living at it Trombone - cylindrical, but plays PT's like a duck on a Junebug Bass trombone - James Bond of Pedal Tone Land. Players carry a special "green card" that reads, "007; license to f*rt!" Tuba & Euphonium - "'Pedal Tone' is our middle name!" Have a nice breakfast! (kidding) jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Right-Hand "Backwards" Single Bb on E-bay (actually a mallowfoon)
>> Looks like a 3-valve single Bb in a backwards, right-handed wrap on e-bay. > It's just another sample of the countless German variations on the Eb > mellotrone theme. Ouch, Klaus! Shame on me... and I even OWN one of these Konzerthorns. Mine's an Alexander, and seems to have been made with the same care as a top-of-the-line full-double. However, one blow and there's no mistaking it for anything higher-born. I reckon I just haven't seen one in a while and it slipped by me. jrc (head hung in shame, cereal bowl in need of flushing) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
> That is the reason the fundamental on the F Horn doesn't speak > as well as the fundamental on the Bb. The bore in relation to > the length Maybe, but consider this: The trumpet has a cylindrical and trombone-like Bore Vs. Length, but will NOT play pedal tones. However, the Flugelhorn has a horn-like small leadpipe and Bore Vs. Length, and DOES play pedal tones. Not disagreeing, just p**ing in your cornflakes! JUST AS A MATTER OF INTEREST: When a brass instrument plays a pedal tone, only 1/2 the wave is formed within the horn, the other half occurs outside. The preceding may have nothing to do with the argument at hand, but I staunchly defend my right to... hey, wait a minute! Wrong whine! jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Right-Hand "Backwards" Single Bb on E-bay
Looks like a 3-valve single Bb in a backwards, right-handed wrap on e-bay. Go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=37977&item=3774446038&rd=1 Or, e-bay item#: 3774446038 No bids with one day left to run on the auction. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] guns and horns
> It's funny how many horn players like to shoot Uhhh, funny thing. I've been following this thread for a couple of days and it just now hit me: I was a horn player in the air force, and before they'd let me out of basic training, I had to qualify with an M-16. Feeling compelled to carry the banner for Stereotypical Gun-Loving Southerners everywhere, I got 100 out of 100 into the sweet spot of the silhouette target. Still got my uniform medal... somewhere. Of course the drill sergeant came over and said to me, "All you country boys spend half your life huntin'; no wonder you can shoot!" Well, I've never been huntin', and I never owned a gun. I think playing horn must train the mind to stand on greased ice and hit a tiny target. Just a theory, mindya, jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Guns and Horns (no Roses)
> Nobody has mentioned the strange thing about the horn in this photo. Hiya Scotty (note that I did NOT say "beam me up" for which you are, no doubt, grateful) The "strange" thing about this horn is, in actuality, what OUGHT to be strange on every horn. That being, the sides of the horn are stacked so as to put the shorter, hard-to-reach slides on top so that they're not... uhhh, "hard to reach." Bb on top, F on the bottom. The only reason I can see that horns aren't made this way is that it doesn't appear QUITE as pretty as hiding the shorties underneath. Other than that, I can't see why they're not all that way. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Baumann repertoire question (and Gustav Heim w-Waldhorn Quartette)
> I have a tape, made from an off the air broadcast, of Hermann Baumann > ...I would be willing to send a file made from this tape to anyone > acquainted with Herr Baumann's recital repertoire in hopes of making an ID Good afternoon Peter, If you send the file out, how about sticking my name on the list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] While I can't claim a knowledge of Baumann's rep, I am known locally as (and I quote), "Walking Encyclopedia of Useless Information." Further self-deprecation would reveal my once-photographic aural knowledge of weird tunes. So, perhaps there's a shot. The real reason I wrote to you (and the list) is to find whatever is known concerning an old cylinder record I have in my collection. It's an Edison Amberol 4-minute cylinder, label# 478, and is said to be by "Gustav Heim and Waldhorn Quartette" It is unfortunate that it is now cracked; split down the entire length. Years ago I played it on a cylinder machine to see what it sounded like, but I can't remember much about it. Anyone know? I Googled it and came up short... at least so far. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] My name...
> ...do not know if I really have any future with this > great instrument due to the lack of genius... ...then you should fit right in! jrc in SC (Southeastern USA) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Alexander wins German award
> I assume that the result is really a serious proof for Alexanders quality > What do you think? I think you forgot to put your real name at the bottom of your letter. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Mouthpiece Survey
> I'm sure this is obvious to many, but would you please describe > the difference in playing a mouthpiece you like that's inserted > too far I talked with Walter Lawson about this a while back but don't recall exactly what he told me, (locked in ongoing memory battle due to closed-head injury), but I have some anecdotal "evidence" of just the opposite situation. I had a mouthpiece that, due to the size of its shank (remember, the SIZE of the shank is not the same thing as the TAPER) only barely went into the receiver of a certain horn (the one I play!). While I can't really tell you what might GENERALLY happen in such a case, I do feel uniquely qualified to comment on my experience, seeing as how I was there at the time. With my mouthpiece only dropping into the receiver about 1/4-inch, I *felt* as if the slots of the in-the-staff notes were funny, and that the notes had no pitch center. I could play low and high without much trouble, but that easy, centered middle-register stuff felt suddenly nebulous. I don't know if these observations are viable, but while playing the Rutter "Requiem," I did wonder where my red cape had gotten to. Not really suspecting the mouthpiece, and thinking it was just me not playing well, I continued through the concert (as we must) to rapturous applause, but I wasn't happy. I later tried another "identical" mouthpiece in the horn and, "Wumba-wumba!" ...there was the pitch center, suddenly back again. Renold Schilke espoused that there should be NEAR ZERO clearance between the mouthpiece shank and the leadpipe venturi: That is, the end of the mouthpiece should KISS the bottom of the receiver. I think Dave Monette likes a little gap there, perhaps a millimeter or two, but I don't have a real measurement for you. By the way, if you're not sure which end of the mouthpiece should kiss the receiver bottom, perhaps you might consider some other hobby. I know I have. jrc in SC PS: Most of the horns I'm familiar with use a "Morse #0" taper. Many horns do not, particular older ones, so don't bother telling me yours doesn't; some of mine don't either. Anyway, the taper doesn't refer to size at all, and you can have a Morse #0 taper on a 9-inch diameter piece of steel. What I mean is, the "#0" taper refers, not to any particular diameter, but rather, to the RATE OF TAPER on whatever diameter you are working with. Not that anyone is making this mistake in judgment, but I thought it might be helpful. If you like graphics, here you go: http://www.morsecuttingtools.com/reference/taper.html And at the top of the following chart: http://www.morsecuttingtools.com/reference/taperchart.html ...you'll find our beloved (and occasionally accursed) Morse #0 taper. You'll note that it specifies a taper of 0.052050 inches for every inch of length. Arcane? You bet! I have a fairly modern horn leadpipe that seems NOT to be a strict #0 taper. It's rather large, but the real issue is the mouthpiece only touches at the bottom. The receiver opens rather drastically after that, causing all my mouthpieces (which are "identical," but not really) to wobble around. Could be wear, but the leadpipe is little-used and the receiver is nice and round. I suspect it was just made that way. ~r ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mouthpiece Bore Size
> You commit a big error: Yes, it would appear that I am positively pungent with blatant inaccuracy as of late. *** > I play all kind of horns with the same mouthpiece: Good. Then your answer to my question would have been, "No." That's what I wanted to know, and you are one of the people I wanted to know it from. It was hard enough getting it out of you, but when grandma's wedding ring gets flushed, one must be willing to dig through the doo-doo to find the gem! *** > We do not adapt the equipment Well, I see your point, but it seems to me that we have *already* adapted the equipment. Vienna horns have a higher impedance, (or "resistance") than most other horns (on this side of the ocean) and, as far as I can tell, by way of compensation, the proper mouthpiece for a Vienna-style horn has a much larger throat. When I had the Ganter double here for trial, everyone in world (including two known mouthpiece makers) was telling me, "You must play this horn with the correct Vienna mouthpiece," which possessed--most notably--a large throat. In fact, it was a H-U-G-E throat. This is, of course, in comparison to all the other horn mouthpieces I've ever seen. >From this, I can only assume that there is a RANGE OF IMPEDANCE at which both >humans and Principals are comfortable (imagine such a blasphemous blend!), and one wanders outside these boundaries at his own risk. It matters not "who adapted" or "who was first." What matters (to me) is this: It appears that this certain level of "comfortable & workable" impedance must come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is the cumulative synergy of impedance between the horn and the mouthpiece. If the horn has less, then the mouthpiece has more, and vice-versa. If anyone feels the spirit move him to disagree, then have at it. If this idea is wrong-headed, then how serendipitous an occasion this is, for this list is exactly the (we hope) scholarly place to air it out and bury it. If it's right, just send money. As far as "adapting one's self to the equipment," as opposed to the other way 'round: Well, again, you preach to the choir. I started playing horn in 1971 and have performed on the same mouthpiece since 1972... no matter the horn. I could be poster boy for the "Never Change Nothin'" school of horn playing. Among mere traditionalists, I am a Pharisee! *** > And it is another error, to take a (technically) measured higher > impedance as a rather obstacle against free blow, which turns out > hollow mostly. Again, as long as we're not talking about me. Herb Foster (thankya very much) has shown me the light when it comes to impedance. I know the value of impedance, and it is a two-edged sword; just as is its lack. While we're blathering-on about impedance, a bit of looking will turn up Ch*cago Symphony recordings with Charlie V*rnon (name cleverly obscured) playing a bass trombone with no leadpipe. Talk about low-impedance, this is *it*! It is the most crass, inelegant elephant f*rt (more clever obfuscation) of a sound that you've ever heard or imagined... that is, unless you have a 900-pound friend who subsists on bean burritos and beer. Otherwise, no contest. Such a great orchestra, reduced to a sonic freak show by the lack of a 4-inch brass tube and some good taste. On these recordings, the bass bone does a marvelous job of obscuring any orchestral tone below 400 Hertz, as well as most above that level. It appears to me that, in the future, should cellos prove unwilling to hammer their instruments with bass drum mallets, then they might as well go home. I'm told (by those who profess to know) that these recordings were made with the guilty party playing a bass 'bone with its leadpipe removed (it's just an inserted "tube" in a trombone, unlike the horn variety), and that it was done for volume. If volume was the hoped-for outcome, then allow me to single-handedly declare the experiment a *complete* and unmitigated success. That volume was attained at the expense of all else appears to matter not to whoever captains the ship up that way. Don't get me started on Phil My*rs, whom I like, respect and admire very much, sometimes in spite of "That Bothersome Sound Situation." May he turn his back on the lurid present and return once more to The Force and the way of the Jedi. "I am Lord Triple. Come with me to the Dark Side!" *** > It may count in all these popular wumba-wumba... Sounds like Rap, except minus all the tender, heartfelt, melodic sentiment! And Professor, your "wumba-wumba" gets my vote in the category of, "Best Descriptive Onomatopoeiaic Adjective in a Continuing Daytime Drama." *** > You still do not believe ??? O.k. it does > not matter for me. But for you ! Again Professor, you delight in fashioning a concept foreign to my nature, assigning it to me with all worst possible motives, then shooting down the straw man you've built. The practice borders on tedium, but allow me to say why I really don't
[Hornlist] conical horn
>> Didn't Barry Tuckwell say that the trombone was a better >> or more efficient brass instrument than the horn? > More efficient at doing what? Pulling a man from a horse? Yes, and a newly-neutered horse at that. BTW: Being in the vicinity of my playing has just the opposite effect and can make even a cripple man beg for a horse! jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mouthpiece Bore Size
> Why then using different mouthpieces to balance ??? This is > paradox, absolutely. This is like scanning colour images to > get an output in grey shades only. Insane. Professor, it is interesting that you would protest so loudly, especially when one considers the fact that you speak one way, but then do the opposite. The horn you play has more impedance (or "resistance") than almost any horn represented here. To balance this impedance, the mouthpiece you use (whose measurement parameters you have given here) has a larger--and I mean much larger--throat than almost any represented here on this list. Tuning a horn's resistance to a comfortable level may, or may not be, "insane," but you practice it, whether wittingly or not. I don't know if this is an "English as second language" translation issue or not. I have an idea about that, but am willing to give the benefit of the doubt. By the way, the question still stands, as of this moment, unanswered. I get the digest version of this list so I will have to wait to see how it comes out. Perhaps a few will comment if the water is not muddied. That question is, Q: When switching between horns of differing "resistance," is it common to use a slightly larger or smaller throat in order to tune this perceived resistance to a level you are comfortable with? jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn Article
> Ray, you committed a severe error Wouldn't be the first time. I remember the last big one was back in the summer of '59... *** > even the 17th & 18th century hunting horns have > the bell garland My mistake, but only partially; I read it here: http://www.andrewpelletier.com/vienna.htm ...a page that I understand to have passed scholarly critique, especially when one considers the identity of the main interviewee. *** > It is a common error by many scientists, who played the horn long > ago & resumed playing the horn after long absence - still thinking > they were much better than the professional principals As long as we're not talking about me. *** > Yes, there is vibration even in a dead bell, but this vibration is so > minimal, that it does not interfere with the horns sound itself. May be, but Professor, my point was this: The dead bell theory, while it may be absolutely unequivocally RIGHT, is available to every maker, yet utilized only on an infinitesimally small number of horns. I make no claims based on this situation, but the observation is unimpeachable. You needn't defend the kranz to me as I've already chosen which side of the field I want to play on. My wife's Lawson Fourier has the liveliest bell I've ever encountered on a horn. I've played it in a medium-sized recital hall for a trusted friend with near-impeccable ears (rare in music, though it shouldn't be) because it was so "comfortable," yet so different-sounding than anything I'd ever played that I didn't consider myself able to judge it immediately. It turns out that what the Lawson sounded like to me was NOT what it sounded like to the audience. You see, to me, the Lawson played INCREDIBLY well, but it sounded... different. I think there are several things at play here, but the bell's resonance was probably what was throwing my sensors out of whack. I was NOT acclimated to the Lawson; I just picked it up and started playing it. I switched out-and-back between three different double horns (one had a kranz!) as I ran through some excerpts, and I thought the Lawson sounded rather bright and "lively" to me. But then my trusted friend said, "Oh no. It's NOT bright at all out here in the hall. In fact, it has--by far--the most interesting sound of the three horns you played." Walter Lawson is on to something. There are probably other makers who have uncovered some secrets, but I mention the Lawson because of its lively-yet-wonderful bell, and I have personally experienced it. This is all anecdotal on my part, no acoustical measurements were involved, but I stand by my observations. *** > Remember: It is not important what YOU think about your playing > qualities today & in the past. Important is only, what the > listeners think or thought about your playing qualities My listeners were happy when I was in my prime. They were occasionally stunned, but "occasionally" is a two-edged sword, and I quit before making a name for myself, deciding to marry instead, and give up the music chase. Recently, health issues forced me out of work just ahead of looming unemployment, and in that long, despairing stare into the dark eyes of mortality, I turned again to something I once knew. I am back to playing for my own reasons, and for my own edification. That there have been moments recalling past victories is but thin icing on a sometimes bitter cake. But I'm still here and Jon Hawkins is not (Google the name if it's unfamiliar). Since he cannot carry on, I will. Not "for" him, but because he'd tell me to if he could. There are more battles worth fighting than the public ones. I've been stuck here at home for a while now, and I thought I might best use my time to suit myself... for a change. The chance of my peaceful existence being interrupted by rowdy autograph seekers is, at best, remote. Therefore, it is most fortunate for me that I am free from courting their favor. When the yard workers hit you in the face with that last shovel full of dirt, the best question might not be, "How high did he fly?" ...but rather, "How well did he use that with which he was entrusted?" The bulk of my victories were in a performance art not related to music and, big though they were, they are of no interest to this list so you won't hear of them. There's room for me here because I don't require any more room than my words take up. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn Article
> Next: it is a real false assumption to get the sound penetrating I never said that because I've never thought that. And because I've never thought that, I've never had the false assumption, but if I had, I'd expect to have heard this from someone. Still, I reckon someone here may benefit from hearing it, turning them from a life of crime, perpetrated by playing a large-bore instrument with a bell-on-the-leg posture. And after all, a pre-emptive strike is better than no strike at all. *** > The bell should NOT vibrate itself, but carry the sound Now professor, you know the original hunting and orchestral horns had no garland, and you know which maker in which country ADDED the garland. And you must also know that, as I stated, some bells vibrate more than others, and that even the bell on your horn vibrates some (as I also stated). It would be possible to make a horn with a bell that vibrated MUCH less than the Ganter I recently spent some time with but, to my knowledge, no one does it. If "the deader the better" is the credo, where are the dogmatic practitioners who build such a thing? Let me say this; I just started back playing following a 20-year vacation. If I had the playing ability now that I had then, I would walk out on stage with an F-horn and sit in the principal's chair. (no matter how mad it made him) For me, the F-horn is THE F-horn. But for now, the trigger is my crutch; a seven-percent solution in a noisy world not of my making. By the way, the Ganter's bell seemed "dead" when the edge was thumped with a small rawhide hammer, but closer inspection proved that it was not as dead as it seemed. It vibrated at a VERY low frequency when compared to my regular old American horn, which shall remain nameless but is a large-throated, nickel-silver Kenosha, Wisconsin-built double horn with a "179" in its nomenclature, was named after a famous former Chicago Symphony principal horn player, built by a company started by a trombone player named Frank, and the last name was Holton; the man, not the trombone, though come to think of it... I didn't check the pitch of the Ganter bell's vibration, but I think it was safely at (or below) the horn's lower register. And while this may make it essentially "dead," and merely a "carrier of the sound," I'd need more convincing on the matter. Safe to say it doesn't vibrate much. I know of a trumpet (specifically, the bell) that was constructed specifically so the bell would not, COULD NOT, vibrate. The results were reported to have been very poor; unpleasantly strident tone, etcetera. I didn't hear it being played and can only relay what I've read about it. Again, very interesting to me, but it's a little late in the game for me to call up Renold Schilke and chat about it. At least part of the bell section was made of thickly cross-sectioned lead, and didn't vibrate to any real degree. *** > It seems, that most players forget to distinguish between > loud & carrying sound Professor, you're preaching to the choir (an American saying, I suppose. The Brits say, "Carrying coal to Newcastle), but I LOVE to hear the message. My quest is to one day own (and play) a small-bore double for the exact reasons you state. Since I have not sold myself into slavery to any specific orchestra, I can play any horn I wish. Given some time (and money), the wish will become reality. Good night and happy new year from the USA's south Atlantic coast, jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mouthpiece Bore Size
> The last I heard, he will not drill anything larger But I will. I've got a BungReamster 3000 (3-horsepower with 1/2" chuck) and bits up to 3/4". I can make modify a horn mouthpiece 'til there's nothing left but shavings and the outer edge of the rim. Can you imagine how loud THAT could be? Can't you hear the voice saying, "Come over to the dark side, young Skywalker!" *** > Different makes, at times, but always small bore I'm glad this came up because I have a question about this. If one switches back & forth between two horns of differing "resistance" (actually "impedance"), would one ideally wish to use different sized mouthpiece throats in order to balance the feel between the two differing horns? This assumes, of course, that one stays within the general parameters of good mouthpiece design. Wilbert's statement of, "the theory was use a small bore mouthpiece with a large bore horn" is one I've heard before. And while a size 4 throat might be a bit over the top (and he thought so too), I've wondered about using the backbore to minimize the difference between, say, a Conn 8D and an old Schmidt double. Or, perhaps using a smaller throat on a descant horn, assuming it's freer blowing by nature. (I've never played on of any make) So what have you heard and/or experienced concerning this? jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn Article
> The palm up position is not much written about but widely > taught, accepted, and used by players who rest the bell > on the knee I'm 6'3", so I play off-the-knee when I can, and I sometimes turn my palm downward. I'm not saying anyone else should, but I do it when I have a nice reflecting surface below me, like a wooden floor. *** > Dogmatism seems to be available on all sides Dogma: 1: [n] a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative 2: [n] a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof I believe your statement refers to definition #2. Interestingly (and as a side point) Professor Pizka's dogma of the correct horn sound is based on #1, the "good" dogma. That is, it is accepted as authoritative. "Authoritative" is not a synonym for "popular" but is often an antonym for it... as well as the ANTIDOTE for "popularity." His "true sound" statement does NOT adhere to #2 in that it is well-documented and can be proven. It's based on a tradition whose instruments are still available for study. This means we don't have to guess, we can know a lot about what the masters heard when they thought "horn." I think this is a pretty neat thing, and is possibly our only ammunition against "dogma #2." I'm reminded of what a theory teacher said when I approached her with a recording of Beethoven (I think it was) piece containing parallel-5ths. "To break the rules, one must first KNOW the rules. Beethoven knew the rules." I thought the world of this teacher, and still do, but remember that she also didn't care for the chord progression, V-IV (often found in the Blues). I never had the heart to show her that big moment in the 3rd movement of the Strauss Horn Concerto #2! *** > ...and be more concerned with musical results > than theory or blatant imitation Good for you. I hope your message finds open ears and engaged minds. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn Article
> There are some statements with which some of you will disagree Here's one that set off my BullFeathers detector: *** Players with the bell held free (off the leg) tend to play horns with smaller bell throats and get a brighter sound *** As Perry Mason would say after objecting, "Assumes facts not in evidence." If you have seen, heard, or read anything to support this, please fill us in. Logically, the horn bell is there to vibrate; some more, some less (those with bell garland or "kranz"). The best use of sound energy from the horn will be produced with the bell off the leg/knee, but there are several other considerations that will, occasionally, take preference. Also, the part about "bell-up" needing a different hand position from "on-the-knee" is hooey. Allow me to Pontificate briefly but euphoniously: >>> If you don't sound good with your hand OUT of the bell, you won't sound good with it IN either. >>> Across the decades I've heard players who seemed to think that the hand-in-the-bell was where the characteristic "velvet" came from in the horn's sound. Hand position is that little cherry that finishes off the top of a good, rich Austrian dessert pastry; it is NOT the source of that pastry's goodness. Please don't fall into the trap of adjusting hand and/or bell position so that the horn sounds good to the player; that is, yourself. In a perfect world, all bells would be off-the-knee and not pointed into the player's (or anyone else's) body. But if that world were truly perfect, horns would weigh less than a clarinet and project like a Howitzer. So, holding a Paxman triple off-the-knee for a 6-hour Wagner opera might be a bit much, and that's where those "other considerations" come in. Body size and strength would also fall squarely in the "other" category. For continuity of sound, on-the-knee hornplayers should endeavor to convince the other brass to do likewise. (chortle!) jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Differences between Ganter and Pizka classic
> On another note... Good one! *** > ...what is the reason for having a cylindrical > tubing section on the horn? Paul, you're asking, "Why the straight tubing?" but let's turn your question around and ask, instead, "Why the tapers?" Not that I know a lot about this but, from what I've read, the tapers of the leadpipe and bell-branch (follow the bell backwards 'til you get to the valve section; that's the bell taper) are what allow the "in-tune" overtones to be blown... as opposed to the unsavory overtones of a straight tube. A garden hose is straight tubing, no tapers. When you play the hose (cut the it about 12.5 feet long, stick your mouthpiece in and play... I do) you'll notice that the overtones are not true. There are short octaves and all sorts of wretched intonation problems between the intervals. I'm currently reading a book on how a French horn plays the way it does. That is, "in tune" (for the most part). The book is a physics/acoustics tome, and it explains this (partially) by using the laws of physics, and it says these beginning and ending tapers "trick" these otherwise funky overtones into thinking they're being blown in a tube designed especially for them. On the "Vienna Horn" page of Andrew Pelletier's website, his article states that, "the cylindrical tubing (in the middle part of the horn) gives stability to the pitch," or something like that. Look up the page and read it and you'll find some interesting tidbits to whet the appetite. It says elsewhere on Andrew's site that he studied hornbuilding at length with Richard Seraphinoff, so perhaps this is where he got the information. *** > ...would it not be feasible to build a horn with the > taper continuing throughout the entire F/Bb side? Logically, the valve section would have to be cylindrical. If you extended the taper through, for instance, the 1st valve slide, what would you do when you got to the 2nd valve? But if, indeed, the cylindrical tubing in the middle of the horn adds pitch stability, then you might not want a continually tapered horn. Never having seen or played a natural horn, it occurs to me to ask if any of them are continually tapered from beginning to end. And if so, how well does such an arrangement play? I am intensely interested in all this stuff, but the only people who will talk to me are the ones with the same questions I have. I reckon it's a closed shop. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Had my first lesson today
> The bad news is that my tongueing is lousy and > I have lots of work to do on that Perhaps not. Laying the horn aside, if you can pronounce the consonant "T" with reasonable alacrity, then you can tongue a brass instrument. Now, picking up the horn, if your tonguing is slower than was your "T" without the horn, then you have an issue with, 1) undue tension in your embouchure, or 2) you're "muscle tonguing." Dave Krehbiel says the tongue is "air-powered." That ain't really correct, but it's better than any other way of thinking about it. Just like depending on "muscles" to play in the high register will shoot you down, trying to muscle the tongue into working fast won't work. You might try making your horn tonguing sound and feel like the most rapid, efficient and focused "T" you can get WITHOUT the horn. All the vowel stuff suggested is good too, mostly as a way of doing LESS with the tongue. Advice that's cheap at 1/2 the price! jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RIP Ifor James
> Just to let you know that Ifor James passed away The best Ifor James story I know concerns his attendance at a large brass symposium as part of the Phillip Jones Brass quartet. After the PJBQ had played, one of the other attending brass quartets gave a series of master classes, the grandest of all being a lecture given by the tuba player concerning the proper choice of instruments as determined by dental patterns. The tuba guy talked at length about the different dental "types," and had a rather large table covered with plaster molds of every conceivable type of overbite, underbite, and any other dental anomaly you could imagine. Of course, based on one's "pattern," this tuba player could predict--with unerring success--the proper instrument to play, and could also soothsay as to whether you would ever achieve any resemblance of success on the one you'd already chosen. Following the big lecture, Ifor James was seen at the table, looking over all the molds, charts, statistics and handouts of scholarly discourse concerning proper instrument choice. After a long, perplexing perusal of the "facts," Ifor turned to the person beside him, reached into his mouth, pulled out his false teeth and asked, "Do you fink I should giff it up?" I'm glad to have known him, if only through his recordings... and this story. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
>> At best, I do not expect them >> ever to exceed student grade > Precisely the sort of thing that, as a kid in the > early '60s, I heard my father's friends say about > Japanese cars, cameras, electronics, etc. Well, there are some parallels to be drawn, but there are also other considerations. In the overall scheme of things, I expect Korea to emerge as "the next Japan" before China does. Japan has already turned to Korea and China to produce certain components of "quality Japanese-made" goods to keep the costs down, thereby protecting their market share by closing the back door. For instance, in the motorcycle world, several of the Japanese bikes have components and systems made in China. Often the Chinese parts are of the cast variety (molten metal poured into a mold) as the rough Chinese finish can be cleaned-up by cheap (for now) Chinese labor. However, the Koreans (of the Southern persuasion) are on the move, and have apparently done so well producing some of the more precision parts that a few ENTIRE Japanese motorcycles are COMPLETELY made there in South Korea. So, based on the above, I would expect Yamaha, having emerged as a "quality brand," to protect its market share by having raw parts made all over the world, each country contributing what it does best and cheapest. One might think that rough valve sets and certain formed tubing might be made in China, finished in Korea, and assembled in major market areas... such as (in my case) the USA. Then you have the cheapness of foreign labor allied with the "perceived precision" of Japanese-manufactured consumer goods, all gathered-up behind the banner of a major brand "Made In The USA" (again, in my case). If history is a good teacher (and it is), no Yamaha assembly line horn will ever knock off the best craftsman-built horns; Yamaha will either 1) endeavor to keep the small maker "small," or 2) buy him out. And you may fill-in your favorite niche-maker here. What science and industry can do is to, eventually, help an assembly line horn APPROACH the best custom horns at around 1/2 the price. And is this not what's happening now? If we were to stick the Lawsons, Dan Rauch, Patterson, etc., on a time clock, how long do you think they could stay interested in giving their best? "Alright Walter, you've been fitting that 1st valve slide for 5-minutes now! Just stick the thing together and MOVE ON!" "Hey Rauch, you'se only got deese heah five bells made? You'se is s'posed to have TEN. Get 'em done by day's end or GO FIND YUHSELF ANUDDAH JOB, CHUMP!" Private experimentation drives the state-of-the-art, and mass production institutionalizes it. We need both. Pretty soon, all of China will be Wal-Mart's shill, but only until the lion grows teeth big enough to eat the guy with the whip & chair. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Holton Farkas MC mouthpiece - OK for adult beginner?
>> what mouthpiece comes with the conn 8d? for Paul. > Seems it was a 7something with a couple of letters in there someplace. I played on a new one in high school, owned by the local college. The horn is long gone, and so am I. The school bought Holtons thereafter, and it was the only Conn they've ever had. Last week, standing in the office of the new assistant professor of music there, I noticed he had a shelf with a large collection of mouthpieces. I asked about this, and he replied: "They came with the office. The guy I replaced said they went with the college's instruments." The reason I asked? There on the shelf was something I hadn't seen in 31 years... a gold-plated Conn 7BW mouthpiece. It was the very one I'd played on back then. Still had the scratch I put on the rim when I fumble-fingered it into the receiver. I must say, it's weathered the years better than I. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mouthpieces - what does a narrower bore do?
> (trying Lawson mouthpiece on Lawson horn) ...felt better, I thought it > sounded better, & I noticed that the horn responded better, immediately. This was also my experience. I've always played a Schilke 30 (same as regular Holton Farkas mouthpiece) and, a couple of years ago I got the chance to play a Lawson Fourier during orchestra rehearsal. So, I stuck in my Schilke 30 and went to town. Everything about the Lawson was better than my Holton, especially the Lawson's ability to sound good from pp to FFF. However, it sounded funny to me. By funny, I mean, something seemed to be missing. The sound was good, but thinner than I'd expected. It's difficult for a player to PERSONALLY judge the sound of a new horn while he's playing it, so I'm not sure what it sounded like to anyone else. I mentioned to the Lawson's owner and he said, "Try this Lawson mouthpiece on it. Walter says these horns REALLY like them." Skeptical, I tried it anyway. Holy Hereford! Flying-Nocturnal-Mammal-Man! What a difference. All the good qualities were as before, but now the sound was fuller. Even though I was playing on an unfamiliar rim, I continued throughout he rehearsal with the Lawson/Lawson setup and felt as if I were wearing a red cape. Remember, the above is in comparison with my (admittedly, extremely nice) Holton Farkas H-179 with Osmun valve job [sweet!] and Pilzchuk leadpipe. Perhaps you may try the same setup and not feel the urgent necessity to trashcan your new Rauch Geyer-wrap double, but if you've been playing a mainstream horn, you might be amazed at the feel and possibilities. Also, the above is purely anecdotal "evidence," and I wouldn't have mentioned it if the poster hadn't brought it up first. \\ Anyway, a few years later I got to spend an entire day with Walter Lawson and he told me that, when a horn maker went to the trouble of making a branded mouthpiece for a particular horn, he'd always tended to pay heed to that maker's mouthpiece suggestions. He also said that, while other horns may benefit from his line of mouthpieces, his own horns are ESPECIALLY designed to work well with his mouthpieces. What sounded, at first, like a mouthpiece salesman giving a sales pitch was, in fact, exactly what I'd found when I played his horn with (and without) his mouthpiece in a hall familiar to me. As a side note, I got interested in a new mouthpiece and Lawson sent his "mouthpiece kit" to my house with one of everything they make. I was able to play several and pick the cup/bottompiece I wanted. If I hadn't read the literature (and spent an afternoon measuring throat size and rim widths to the thousandths of an inch) I might've thought the task of choosing one combo from that big ol' wooden caddy would be a daunting one. Not so, as, excepting rim contour, the choices are not dizzying, and never lead far from a good, reasonable path. My advice to anyone who is somewhat happy with his current "mainstream" maker mouthpiece but would like an opportunity to put a little more "character" into his sound, give Lawson a call. You may or may not end up on a Lawson mouthpiece, but after playing 30-years on the Schilke, I was pleasantly surprised by the ease of the changeover. I devoured the accompanying literature over the weekend, then took the whole kit to the concert hall and tried them all day for two days. One thing you'll notice is that all his mouthpiece types encompass a rather narrow--though meaningful--range of dimensions. There are no "tanks" in his kit, nor are there any "peashooters." Compared to the well-known Farkas/Schilke 30-sized mouthpieces (which come with Holtons, Yamahas, and MANY mainstream makers horns) all Walter's rims are *slightly* thinner, all cups have a funnel-shape to them, and all have slightly larger throats (don't panic, this size is well-supported by the mouthpiece's other dimensions). The main choice to be made is not in the esoteric dimensions, but in the rim contour. There are several contours in the kit, and you simply find the contour that feels like "home" to your chops, then match it to the proper bottompiece and play. On the slightly technical side, the Lawson bottompiece I played was more funnel-shaped (like a simple triangle) and had a larger throat than what I was used to. If I had to guess here, the Lawson horn has slightly more "resistance" (or, impedance) overall than a lot of modern, front-line orchestral horns. Not a lot, but maybe a bit more. I'm thinking the larger throat offsets this to some degree as, though the horn felt great with my tight-throat Schilke mouthpiece, it felt out-of-this-world with Walter's own mouthpiece bottom. I think Walter & company have PLENTY of general knowledge about "what makes a horn play the way it plays," but I also think they know TONS about why their own horns play as they do. Walter and I talked incessantly for an entire day, and my wife finally had to drag me out of his shop at sundown so we could begin our 900-mile journey home. I wa
[Hornlist] Shameless Christmas Wishing... (Tuning-in a neurotic letter to a Sanity Clause)
Okay boys and girls, Santa is coming to this 50-year old's house, and I need to tell Ms. Klaus what little Rayman wants for Christmas. Everyone but me seems to have a small, electronic metronome. (insert sound of lips pouting) Perhaps we can fix that with your heartfelt recommendation, but wait... Everyone but me ALSO seems to have a small, electronic tuner. (remember the previous lip sound? Well double it) Now, before you all start writing to tell me your favorite brand and model of each--and why it's tops and really keen--let me ask this: Q: Does anyone make one of these gizmos that is BOTH these gizmos in ONE GIZMO? (if you don't understand the American word "Gizmo," then please insert "Widget" ...along with 50-cents, and try again) I've seen a few tuners that use on/off colored lights to notify me of a sharp or flat situation, but whose lights don't actually display HOW MUCH off I am... as if I could ever actually be out of tune. All I got was a go/no-go situation. I think Ms. Klaus would want Santa to do MUCH better than this for me. (pout subsides, but only a little) So, fill me in on these gadgets (METRONOME & TUNER) and I shall scour the web from sea-to-shining sea so that I may give Ms. Klaus (also a horn player) some idea of what to buy and where to get it. You guys are all just SO boss and groovy, as well as many other swimmingly anachronistic adjectives that have become lost to time. Thanks, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] newbie intro: (& Auction Rules)
> which I find quite coincidental, since my wife found me > 23 years ago at an auction, in the form of a bidder So Dave, If you don't mind saying; how much did you have to pay for her? Hope you got all the options you wanted, and assume you didn't spend a lot on unnecessary extras. Those frivolous extras can really drive up the price with little-or-no real benefit. After all, who really cares about resale? Just find a good, dependable model with sensible shoes and stay with it. Financial incentives at purchase, while helpful, are rarely a good reason to sign on the dotted line. And don't get suckered into a bidding war. If the newness wears off while the payments are still high it can quickly turn into a never-ending source domestic friction. In such cases, E-Bay is always a possible solution. Beware of convertible models though. Buyer's remorse can set in if, after the purchase, you find the top's been down too many times. Happy motoring! jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
>> ...See Spot Run, newly orchestrated for soprano, garden hose (in D) > I found that a standard 25-foot hose is just about in D What? How so? When I was deciding how to cut my hose (say, shouldn't this be done by a Rabbi?), I'd heard that a trombone is about 9-feet long, making a BBb tuba about 18-feet long... so I figured a horn in F must be a little longer than halfway between those two. If I was right (and since my hose plays a pretty mean key of F, I was... wasn't I???), how in the world can 25-feet be right for horn in D? Unless...at 25-feet, the partials are so close together that it plays in all keys at once! Puzzled, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Speaking of LPs For the Audiophiles (NHR)
> I've got a McIntosh 225 and a pair of Bozak speakers > that'll take you right back to the early sixties Ahh, greetings fellow MC225 owner! I've heard that these things are collectible, or at least once were. I'm just using my Advent tuner for an amp, so I haven't had the MacIntosh on in years. Taking a chance, I assume it still works. For all the aural foibles I KNOW old tube amps are guilty of, I can never forget that I was raised on the sound of tubes, and they will always sound "right" to me, no matter what a spectral analysis says. After all, what's the first word in analysis? I rest my case. I still have the same stereo (including the Mac, bought used) that I bought in 1976. Post Cold War Time-Warp Survivor or stubborn curmudgeon? Take yer pick. jrc in SC PS: While I'm in NHR mode (aka "non horn-related), and the topic of LP's comes up on the list, you might wanna nab a copy of the "Casino Royale" soundtrack. "Casino Royale" was a James Bond spoof that, rightfully, went next-to-nowhere. However, often overlooked is the SUPREME soundtrack. The reason said soundtrack was easy to overlook was that the movie flopped, and thus did the LP disappear from sales racks. Thing is, the soundtrack was done by the (pardon me) Beethoven of Pop, one Burt Bacharach. Burt assembled a stunningly good studio orchestra and, just to sweeten the pot, wrangled permission for the session to be recorded (at Herb Alpert's A&M studios soundstage, I believe) on a new type of sooper-dooper high-quality reel-to-reel tape. It shows. This has to be the best sounding LP that you can't buy. So, why do I mention it? 'Cause, several years ago, it was FINALLY remastered and re-released on CD. Get thyselves to Amazon or your local music emporium, and reserve theyself a copy. I've got mine, and am very glad it can't be worn through by playing. You'll thank me. ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Son Of "Led Zeppelin Meets Mahler In Detroit" (Metamorphosis & Krehbiel)
Regarding the recent talk of the "Metamorphosis" LP and Dave Krehbiel's contribution, A listmember who can read the list but is having trouble posting to it, sent me the following, along with his blessings to post it if I wished. Just in case someone's reading, here goes... jrc *** Ray, First of all, good to see you back after what feels like a considerable time off list. Regarding your posting: I am pretty sure that there are at least 2 (Symphonic) Metamorphosis LPs, since Tom Bacon lists that many in his discography on his amazing web site. At a DSO concert on tour somewhere on Long Island, I met Art (Dave) Krehbiel when I was in HS ca. 1965 (I recall summoning up my adolescent nerve to ask him if that was an 8D that he was playing...I don't remember his response, but he was definitely very friendly and we talked for quite a while) and I can't say that I would be able to pick him out in a lineup at this point, based on my memory. The picture on the album cover shows 8 to 10 guys who all look like they could be the "horn player" and could have grown (aged is less kind but more accurate, I guess) into more recent pictures that I have seen of Krehbiel and Bacon. There is no reason that they wouldn't have both been on the same album, but I guess I am not the one to say conclusively who actually did the gig. If I can manage to scan the picture, I will send it to you and maybe you can sort this out. The whole package of the album, including the music and the jacket are so much tied to the era, I can totally understand his guilty plea. All of it is done well, but the effort to be "relevant" or at least not square strains the limits and it feels like that classical heads (a term I recall flourishing in the late 60s or so) and pop fans both being less than fulfilled by it. Anyhow, I appreciated your tales of your personal contact with Dave K. Maybe someone else will give me the discographic final word. I'm sure I could go to the actual players in question if I find time to do the legwork. I'll let you know if I come up with anything. Thanks again, Peter Hirsch *** ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] All Mellowed Out - Part II
> Marching with a French horn is something to be avoided
Aye, but much more to be feared is marching close to a mellophone!
I wrote this years back and may have even posted once here. Anyway, all this
talk about marching with a French horn reminds me of why, when I was
supposed to, I didn't
jrc in SC
***
The San Francisco Sign-People
(Marching To Victory)
When the Travis Air Force Base band, of which I was a last-century member
('80-'83), would march parades in San Francisco, California, I would always
carry my Alexander Concert Horn for a day of sport. The Concert Horn is an
evil, alto horn-like relative of the French Horn (itself rather maleficent)
and has been found to be most useful for encouraging young band students to
play percussion instruments.
I employed the Alexander for marching band gigs and would play, by ear, a
combination of the 1st trumpet and euphonium parts, putting the euphie part
up an octave and thereby offering up what I considered to be a subtle
garnish that rode magnificently atop the usually drab and pedestrian sound
of an otherwise uninspired military band. "Alex" was a little German beauty
that, when used in anger (how else!) could completely drown the entire row
of healthy trumpet players behind me, engulfing them with mellifluously
mutating sonorities. The fact that they were also neutered during this
process only served to endear me to music lovers the world over. Trumpet
players deserved, but did not get, hazard pay when they marched behind Alex
and me.
I am 6'3" tall and, as many of you know, big people march to the left and
rear of a military formation. Alex's left-side facing bell (opposite of the
French Horn) was a stroke of pure "Parade-Animal" genius; hats off to some
mischievous brass-instrument designer in Germany who must have known that
with one of these half-breeds in his possession, a big military band-member
on a critical mission of cultural cleansing could accomplish marvelous
things in the area of crowd-control.
Near the end of the 1982 San Francisco Memorial Day parade we rounded a
left-hand turn where I saw a group of anti-military protesters just ahead
and on my left. I was positioned on the left side of the unit, marching
slowly on the inside while we made the turn. Now I don't dislike people just
because they don't like me... but in this case I was willing to make an
exception. As we passed the tightly packed group they stuck their signs in
right in the faces of my fellow bandmates at the front our ranks. Aha! They
had drawn first blood! Instantly my course - yea, my duty -- became clear.
I raised the Alex's mighty bell to face straight out to the left, inches
from their jeering faces... "Wait till you see the whites of their eyes," I
repeated to myself. "Only five more steps to go!" I summoned my
adrenaline-soaked respiratory system for a full "bombs away!" as the
leadpipe became suddenly hot. I blew till the little Alex almost split open;
my vision blurred, their vision was eradicated. I had swooped out of the sun
and caught them completely unawares. I closed rapidly for the kill,
"Bravura" blaring wildly, incoherently from coiled, tortured Teutonic brass.
My chops tingled as the sickening stench of flaming, unwashed hair rapidly
filled the crisp, bayside air. Mountains of twisted, white-hot sound
wretched from my melting bell while generations of future noxious and
unkempt protesters were stricken from the womb in that searing moment of
Brobdingnagian hippie-Hades Horn hootenanny howl-up.
A few of their number had managed to stand their ground, but only a few. And
this was to be their last act of defiance. They stood fast, facial muscles
contorted and frozen by a sonic reality never imagined, yet somehow present.
The rest scattered in a fog of stale incense, like rotting chaff in the face
of my cleansing wind. The weak tramped on one-another's faces to escape
their comrade's awful fate, at once abandoning their "we-are-one"-ness and
replacing it with the horror of this thunderously unfathomable reality. Vain
was their attempt to escape the swift and sure annihilation of their
sub-species by the menacing, medieval mellophone from the annals of Japanese
horror filmdom. I was "Alto-Zilla, the Alto Killah"... and I was loose in
their city-by-the-sea!
Wherever candles are lit, wherever World-Peace rallies are held, and
wherever the suffering of the fold and the horrors of nuclear skirmish are
remembered with reverence and silent mourning, those few who stood their
ground and bravely relinquished their reproductive futures are held dear in
the hearts of the remaining loyally-unwashed. Those brave souls who
selflessly stood firm while clinched in the cold jaws of deaf, forsaking
common sense and subjecting themselves to swift and certain sterilization of
Alex, The Grim Reaper. They were the few, the proud, the barren, they
were...
The San Francisco Sign-People!
Peace brethren;
jrc in SC
***
___
post
[Hornlist] Detroit horn question - sort of
> Anyone on the list familiar with who might have been playing > horn (and the rest of the personnel) on the LP album > "Metamorphosis: Dynamic arena" > Mystery solved. BTW - there isn't a ton of horn audible on this album but > the first cut on side one, "Earth mover" has some licks that sure DO sound > like the Tom Bacon Peter, I have the "Metamorphosis" album (unless there's more than one). Look closely and you'll see that Dave Krehbiel is indeed there on the cover. Dave was a friend (and teacher, as I also took a few lessons) of mine (and my wife) about 20-years ago when we were in the Travis AFB military band. At the time I was a rabid record collector, and I happened upon the "Metamorphosis" LP. Knowing we were going to Dave's house within a few weeks from then, I decided to take the LP with me and to ask him about it. Fast-Forward to Dave's house: As I pulled LP from a plastic shopping bag, I pointed to the cover photo in an inquisitive manner... he smiled, rolled his eyes, and said something to the effect of, "Guilty!" If I recall correctly, Dave told me that the "brains" in the "Metamorphosis" group was the flute player pictured on the cover. Dave characterized him as an intense musical genius whose mind was always at work, and he went in many musical directions... all at once. Not content to simply twiddle on his flute for the Detroit Symphony, he fomented the wild mix of rock/classical/Jazz fusion heard on the Metamorphosis LP. To the best of my recollection, the whole concept sprang from the mind of this flute-dood, though his name is now lost to me. As a matter of fact, this coming October will be 20-years since my wife and I stood in Dave's living room in Mill Valley (outside SanFran) discussing this LP with Dave and his wife Carol. While he was naming off the "Metamorphosis" players and giving me a bio on each one, the phone rang. It was someone in "the city" (again, San Francisco) offering him half-a-G-note ($500.00(US) ...and those were 1984 bux!) to show up for a commercial "jingle" gig. He looked like he was trying to find a way to apologize, and I told him he needn't. So, carrying my blessings (which he didn't need), Dave took off for the small studio... a place to which, as a former "rock star" (choke!), he was no stranger. It was the last time we ever saw him. When Dave left the San Francisco Symphony behind, he retired to somewhere around (I think) Big Sur in California. And though we've corresponded occasionally over the years, I try not to bother him too much. From what little I know of the professional music biz, he's earned his rest. jrc in SC PS: Are you familiar with the Neon Philharmonic's "Morning Girl" hit from that same late-60's time period? Not the same style, "Morning Girl" was a genuine hit, and was the work of one Tupper Saussy... about whom I know nothing. "Morning Girl" didn't just "use" an orchestra (nothing new there) but rather, "incorporated" the orchestra, players from the Memphis area, I think. The "Morning Girl" song was, essentially, a little 4-minute opera in a pop-rock style. Although it was a rather unique tune, I consider Puccini's reputation to be still-intact. ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Microphone Placement
REGARDING: microphone set-up
> ...or if an instrument mike with some direct sound from
> either the piano or the horn needs to be mixed in
If by "direct sound from the horn" you refer to placing the mike behind the
player ("in front" of the bell opening), then I'd vote for not doing that.
In the case of horn alone, you'd probably want the mike in front of the
player, and above his head. How far "in front" and how far "above" could be
suitably worked out in a few minutes. Should be able to place horn and piano
around the mike and nail it with stereo miking from one mike location.
I have several Jazz/pop recordings that are high-tech and high-end, but
suffer greatly from the horns being miked from behind. DeRosa plays on one
of them, and he deserved better. I reckon they didn't ask him though, eh?
jrc in SC
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] wraps
>> but the kruspe will give a big sound, > If you are inferring that the Yamaha 667 Greg, It would be you who inferred; he would have "implied." He implies and, in guessing his meaning, you infer. This message brought to you by someone who failed 12th grade English twice. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Denis Wick vs Cartouche vs Megamoose
>> ...Annealing. Does it affect the performance of mouthpiece much? > I tried the same model of mouthpiece non-annealed and annealed (and) I noticed > a subtle difference in the resultant tone quality Before or after you knew which was annealed? Ever seen a Ferrari driver who was dissatisfied with his purchase? No, nor will you. The subjective nudge is a powerful thing indeed. Just ask 'em down on Wall Street. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Denis Wick vs Cartouche vs Megamoose
> Cabbage gave a very good explanation of 'pop tone' > It is a tone with a frequency related to the volume of the mouthpiece cup Wrong turn at Albequerque, Kemosabe! (my native American heritage surely allows me to say that) I figured the "pitch of the pop" (say, is this a new language we're starting here?) should be related to length, not cup volume. Time for a lab test... Sure 'nuff, my Schilke 30's "pitch pop" is slightly higher than the Lawson mouthpiece I play. It's a very close thing indeed, but the Lawson is SLIGHTLY shorter overall than the Schilke (perhaps more familiar as the standard Farkas Model mouthpiece that comes with a new Holton), and therefore, pops higher. Now for the killer. I popped a "6 & 1/2-AL" trombone mouthpiece I had laying around. The 6 & 1/2-AL is a very standard t-bone mouthpiece, but its cup volume is about 3-to-3.5 times that of any horn mouthpiece I've ever seen. Results? For all its volume, the 6 & 1/2-AL pops a mere minor 3rd below my horn mouthpieces. Sitting together, the 6 & 1/2-AL is SLIGHTLY longer than a horn mouthpiece, hence the slightly lower pop pitch, though its volume is much greater than the horn mp's. Now the timbre of that pop is another thing entirely. Point of interest #1: Popping from the shank end (as opposed to popping from the cup side) yields the same pitch an octave higher. This works on both the horn and trombone mouthpieces I have sitting here. Tell me why. Point of interest #2: The way I see it, every mouthpiece has the following characteristics, which may (or may not) be completely separate from its playing characteristics; 1) A "pop tone" (overall length-related) 2) A "pop timbre" (volume related, but I assume the volume of both shank AND cup...?) 3) A resonant frequency (the pitch when "rung" like a bell, related to density, mass and overall-length... maybe. help me Cabbage, I'm way over my acoustical head here) I'm about ready to wager that what little is really known about ADVANCED mouthpiece design is tied to how the above areas inter-relate. I open the bid with 20% of a dime... ...and that would be my $.02 cents on the subject. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
