[Hornlist] F/Bb Reversal
Walter's solution to this problem was to build a whole new linkage system for the thumb valve. As I recall it had three pivot points. One was to make the reversal and the others were to reduce the amount of movement needed on the thumb. Hey, it's been thirty years and I only saw it once. Wish I could be of more help. Wilbert in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] f/u: embouchure change in student
I wrote earlier this year asking for help w/ my 11 year old student who was playing w/ an upside down embouchure. I chatted w/ her father, a music educator, about Wendell Rider's recommendations. He went to Wendell's website, downloaded the information about embouchures & casually dropped it on the seat next to his daughter when they were on a road trip. The next time he observed her playing, she was placing the mpc on the lower lip as Wendell Instructs. When she came for her lesson over a month later, her tone and range were markedly improved. I enjoyed seeing the look of satisfaction on her face as I commended her for making a good choice & taking responsibility for the results. Valerie___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
On Feb 8, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Mark Syslo wrote: Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Open, of course, as everyone else has pointed out. I was switched to horn from trumpet in middle school. I was essentially handed the horn and, I suppose, a fingering chart, and compliant kid that I was, I dutifully became a horn player. Anyway, I'm pretty sure my fingering chart must have showed the fingering as "1"; at least, that's how I played it for a number of years until I was in high school, when one of my section mates pointed out that it was better to play it open. It was obviously better, and I switched right away and with no trouble. The point is, it's unlikely that you've done any irreparable harm teaching them to finger it as "1". Carlisle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
At 5:08 PM -0600 2/9/08, Bill Gross wrote: Now for an example from Solfeggio from one of the classic groups of the early 1960s, visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uw03hS_EMY Interesting their first four words - do, mi, fa, do. Good for a baseball player - 750. I heard sol instead of fa. Cute, though. Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
Hans, as he usually does, hit the nail squarely on the head. Knowing what the note is supposed to sound like is the first step, fingering come second. "Solfeggio" is one way to get there. Now for an example from Solfeggio from one of the classic groups of the early 1960s, visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uw03hS_EMY ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F horn fingerings
Instead of dictating the absolutes, why not give the kids a choice & let them take responsibility for their own musical decisions? Have them listen to & feel the difference between 1st finger D and open D & see which sounds best on their own instrument? This could be a good opportunity to teach kids about alternate fingerings, listening to pitch & whether it's smoother to use the first finger or stay open to move from C to D or from E to D, etc. There may be able to discern a difference in he "speakability" of the notes played w/ alternate fingerings. Every horn is different. My amatuer one cent. Valerie _ Click now for a huge selection of name brand automotive tools! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigVwslpXfhw8skwxrhe8phzjrwxSlI9RuDpdd0CHKEShPEkk/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F horn fingerings
Agreeing with the reasons for the Open fingering for the F side of the horn for the 4th line D here is another way to look at it from a band instrument perspective. Your trombone students have to have their slide positions right and have to learn to hear their notes properly. You can't expect their trombones to all have the same position for their notes 100% exactly the same as each other. Even in the unlikely event they were all the exact same brand of trombone and the same brand and size of mouthpiece you have to take into consideration embouchure differences. Let alone the slight differences in each instrument that inevitably happens regardless of strict computer tolerances and the like. As the horn gets higher and higher, no matter what kind of horn it is, there are more and more notes that can be played with just one fingering of one sort or the other. All open, all 1st, all 2nd, etc. The harmonics make all the difference if those notes are in tune. Thus all the forever talk about proper hand positions on the list because they adjust those out of tune notes with hand position. Have your students learn the notes properly. Bad enough some students of band come off of trumpets and the like and use their trumpet fingerings for the horn. Those fingerings work but are not right and those fingerings are not proper unless being used in the lower octave of the horn. Let alone why make fast passages more difficult with a zillion unnecessary fingerings? Your students will get a more precise embouchure along with better ear training if you teach the regular fingerings that the charts call for. Let them learn how to use the alternate fingerings, so to say, later on in life when they will come in handy for rapid passages in different key signatures or for old fashioned slurred horn calls that are better off without key strokes muddying up the slurred passages. You could even take a few minutes and go to the extent of setting the students in front of an electronic tuner and having them watch the needles on the tuner as they play those open notes. That way they could actually see in their mind that it is possible to play each note open. >From one who has been called everything from a "kitchen horn player", because >I can't spend 24 hours a day practicing since I have family and grandchildren >to take care of, to a "swing player" because I pretty much have to play what >ever part is put in front of me, to an "on call" horn player for various >places, a local soloist and by some area people called a professional even >though I don't make a zillion dollars off of playing my horn and deny that >claim because I know the major horn world would trample me if I did claim that >title. Oh, I do teach music, some horn, but mostly piano and guitar. I >reserve my horn playing for church and the bands that I am (1st & swing >player in one, and 2nd in the other). I enjoy music and it is great to not >use the horn to be the bread winner of the family. DMM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
My 1 cent (Amateurs shouldn't get 2 cents). As I got older I realized the less I have to change fingering the less I had to worry about "lip to fingers co-ordination" Joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Syslo Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:10 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/joescarpelli%40earthlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
And, Mark, finally my addition: Using F-Horn C-D-E - open B-(natural)- C# - D# - with 2 AND not with 12 (C#) or 23 (D#). It does not matter, what fingering you teach your young band members, if they do not HEAR the right pitch, - if their ear training is inadequate. Pressing down the right key does not mean getting the right pitch. It is not a PC and it is not a piano. It is a wind instrument much depending from a small fraction of human lips & from human ear & from human brain (feeling, acoustical recognition, acoustical advance impression). Without proper ear training, all effort must fail. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Syslo Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 1:10 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
In addition to what has already been posted, you can also play the Bb with open fingerings (a slight bit flat) giving you 4 notes in a row open. Though I wouldn't offer that fingering in normal circumstances, many newer students will hit that Bb when trying for the C and think they have the right note. I always insist on the open D on the F horn with my students an exception would be a fingered trill where the first valve is necessary. David Laraway Mark Syslo wrote: I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/david%40dlaraway.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
It's really pretty simple. The D is better on 0. When using 1 you are playing a tenth harmonic which is flat. The E on 0 is also a tenth harmonic and tends to be flat but is a better in tune note than is the D with 1. It can be brought up with 1-2 on the F horn. This is where practice and spaced repetition is most helpful in learning where the 9 open notes in the top octave are learned so they'll groove in. Think Vienna horn. Paul Mansur On Feb 8, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Mark Syslo wrote: I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
In addition to what everyone else has said, third-space C, which is concert F, can also be played as 1 on an F horn as it's the 9th partial. It might actually be easier to play C-D as 1-open so that you got a shorter tube for the higher note - I just tried it, though, and it feels weird. Open-open-open gets my vote, too. I also tried the E as open, 1-2, and 3 - open gets my vote there, too. All _that_ said, when I was first learning on a single F horn, I confess that I played C-D as open-1, as you suggest, just because it felt easier to press a valve during the note change. I couldn't tell you why, and I can tell you I don't do it that way any more, but I did it then. Ain't it grand that the fingers just don't matter that much? -S- > -Original Message- > From: Mark Syslo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:10 PM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings > > I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The > band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no > valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not > the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D > as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to > make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. > Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three > notes in a row with the same fingering? > > We don't have double horns for our students until they move > on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn > is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but > that's not possible in our situation. > > Open or 1 on 4th-line D? > > > Mark J. Syslo > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
-Original Message- From: Mark Syslo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 7:10 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ~~ I agree with the info posted so far - Open, without question. Our instrument is plagued with successive whole tones that are identically fingered, this should be no different. My reasoning is: 1 - why make the horn longer than it needs to be (adding that 1st valve adds a few inches that aren't needed) 2 - whether it's fingered open or 1, the lips still need to produce a 'D' so the fingering really doesn't matter. 3 - I personally find the Open fingering to be a little more in tune (where '1' is generally a tad sharp for me.) 4 - When the students learn to do C-to-D lip trills later in life, they'll likely be using Open on C and Open on D anyway - may as well learn it now. Cheers- Jeremy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1262 - Release Date: 2/6/2008 9:13 AM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
It doesn't matter if you teach that three notes in a row don't have the same fingering. The reality is that they do, and that putting down the first valve to go from C to D doesn't really help getting the note to come out right any more than not putting the first value down. Actually, since you're lengthening the horn, it makes it less likely the D will come out after playing a C first, but more likely if you're playing an E first. So perhaps if you need to use valves to go from C to D, you should finger the C first valve, unless you just played a Bb, which you could have fingered 23. So much simpler just to play C, D, and E open. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Syslo Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:10 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/john.baumgart%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn fingerings
In a message dated 09/02/2008 00:11:46 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Open lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F horn fingerings
I am a band director at two elementary schools in PA. The band method book we use teaches 4th-line D as open (no valves). (What band method it is isn't important as it's not the only one with my concern.) I always teach the 4th-line D as 1, as a 3rd-space C will always be open, and it seems to make sense to NOT have two notes in a row with the same fingering. Plus, the 4th-space E will always be open as well. Three notes in a row with the same fingering? We don't have double horns for our students until they move on to the middle school or high school. Using a double horn is certainly better than ANY fingering on the F horn, but that's not possible in our situation. Open or 1 on 4th-line D? Mark J. Syslo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F or Bb fingerings
Dear Hornlisters: Since I don't teach many beginners I can only go from my own experience. I played school horns--a single F in 6th and 7th grades and then a Conn 6D in 8th grade (only using F fingerings!) and at that point was playing from Pottag-Hovey Book 2 and Mozart 3rd Concerto. I didn't start using B flat fingerings until 9th grade and then only gradually. I wonder if using the double horn unduly complicates hornplaying for beginners? Wouldn't it be best to get the hand position, embouchre, and sound working on the single F? Also the instrument is lighter and easier for young students to carry than a full double--a big consideration for those of us like me who are uh, vertically challenged! When playing the double horn I practice all etudes using F fingerings in the low register and only use Bb fingerings as alternates in solo and orchestra passages. When playing the Bb or descant horn, I have the + valve tuned to make an F horn with the 2 and 3 valves--I find I need to blow through that length of tubing in order to keep the sound and feel of the horn physically. Hope this helps. Bill Klingelhoffer ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F
I say what I do, and I do what I say. Others may do what they like. At 7:41 PM +0100 3/6/06, Hans.Pizka wrote: You should not say that in front of a lot of students reading the list. It is most important to play as accurate as possible during practising sessions so to achieve an outmost accuracy & self confidence needed for the performance. If you can do delicate things tentimes in a row without mistake (say ninetimes, better for amateurs & students) while practising, well, then you can live with this quota of mistakes & feel much better before & during playing in a concert. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F
You should not say that in front of a lot of students reading the list. It is most important to play as accurate as possible during practising sessions so to achieve an outmost accuracy & self confidence needed for the performance. If you can do delicate things tentimes in a row without mistake (say ninetimes, better for amateurs & students) while practising, well, then you can live with this quota of mistakes & feel much better before & during playing in a concert. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carlberg Jones Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 6:42 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] F At 9:02 PM -0500 3/5/06, David Goldberg wrote: >Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard double on the F side? Actually, David, I am not sure what information you want. Is this is a rhetorical question in some way, or fodder for a discussion? How do you define "better?" For me, "better" is different when I am practicing from when I am playing. When I am practicing, it is not my goal to be totally accurate, but, rather, to work on the aspects of playing which will bring me closer to that accuracy. Which single horn? Mine, as in the single F horn I usually play, or, just any single horn? Same for the double horn. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F
At 9:02 PM -0500 3/5/06, David Goldberg wrote: Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard double on the F side? Actually, David, I am not sure what information you want. Is this is a rhetorical question in some way, or fodder for a discussion? How do you define "better?" For me, "better" is different when I am practicing from when I am playing. When I am practicing, it is not my goal to be totally accurate, but, rather, to work on the aspects of playing which will bring me closer to that accuracy. Which single horn? Mine, as in the single F horn I usually play, or, just any single horn? Same for the double horn. A single horn is usually lighter than a double horn, and lightness facilitates slight movements which make playing easier. It causes less fatigue from holding it, as well. The vibrations on a double horn have to pass through an extra valve, causing more potential disruption of the vibrating air column. So, in answer to your question, my single F horn plays better than the F side of my standard double horn. Or, did you mean to send me your question privately? Carlberg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F
David, I have not seen a horn playing better than another.
It is the player. My standard double has the Viennese bore
also, and the Viennese bell section (even the flare is
bigger). But the single F gives a better result (F-horn
wise) as it is free of the additional bends.
Greetings
Hans
=
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Goldberg
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:02 AM
To: horn@music.memphis.edu
Subject: [Hornlist] F
Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard
double on the F side?
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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unsubscribe or set options at
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de
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Re: [Hornlist] F
At 9:02 PM -0500 3/5/06, David Goldberg wrote: Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard double on the F side? Oh, my God. I just sent private e-mail to the entire list. Please accept my apology, and I'm sorry to have wasted your time. Carlberg -- My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F
At 9:02 PM -0500 3/5/06, David Goldberg wrote: Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard double on the F side? There you go, David, joking around again. Are you asking about two specific horns? If so, which ones? The single that Steve left a pencil in the bore of? Your Geyer? One of my junk 4D's or my new primo one and my 8D or my old Wunderlich compensating double that I sold for $25 USD? For me, my old-new 4D plays much, much better than my great 60-year-old 8D on the F side. I figure there's a 5% accuracy difference between the two horns; I get 5% more notes on the 8D than on the 4D. However, I do my practicing on the 4D, so I figure if I'm hitting the notes on the single F horn, I'm doing much better on the double 8D than if I were doing my practicing on it. How was your trip? It obviously affected your sense of humor. Carlberg -- My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F
Which plays better, your single F horn or your standard double on the F
side?
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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[Hornlist] F. Gumbert Set of Horn Excerpts
What is a set of all ten in mint condition worth these day? I'm downsizing again and have no room for them. Does anybody need a full set? These are Southern Music Co. reprints. I don't know if they are still available from them. CORdially, Paul Mansur ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn and Vince DeRosa
Orlando, I made the original posting about VD using a VH in ET. Honestly, I don't remember where I heard the story. It seems he doesn't remember himself or it never happened! But, it sure soudns like it to me. Aleks Ozolins ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F horn and Vince DeRosa
I'm afraid as I was cleaning out my emailbox, I deleted the comment about Vince DeRosa playing the Vienna horn on a film score, so I apologize for not writing to the person in question directly. Not more than one hour after deleting the message, Vince happened to call me, so I asked him about it. He told me he owned such a horn, which was modified by Roland Berger, but didn't recall ever using it on a studio gig. He told me he usually didn't carry two horns (other than the extreme cases when he used a Paxman model 40), as he was able to do just about everything on his 8D. He did however mention that with all the work he did, it is possible that he might have used his Vienna horn but simply didn't remember. It seems to me that if it was in fact a special request, Vince would have remembered. I hope this helps. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:57 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Teaching on Natural Horn Kev24612 said: "Its all very well saying that, being accomplished players with a great ability and knowledge, but how many new players, with little knowledge, will want to go through all that when they start playing. They will be put off tremendously by the thought of going through it. Nice idea but quite unfeasable." If it's off-putting and discouraging, then so be it. Rather horn players develop their musicianship than to be a mere technician. As many others have said, that is a problem in music today-many technicians, not so many musicians. A technically perfect performance is nothing if it has no musical soul and that's what is being alluded to here, the musical soul. Certainly it is possible to develop a singing horn sound without studying on the F horn or the hand horn, but that is more the exception than the rule. If the student is serious about the horn, then he/she will take the time and "pay the dues" to develop that level of musicianship. Dana Twiss Litchfield, Maine ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F or Bb single??
An Benno Heinemann: Also, ein Hornlehrer, der seinen Schüler schon nach Beherrschen der C-Dur Tonleiter auf auf dem F-Horn zum B-Horn verführt, ist kein verantwortungsvoller Lehrer. Wie Sie gut sagen, ist jetzt das F-Horn eine große Hilfe zu guter Tonqualität und zur Entwicklung der Bläsertechnik (spielen mit einem gewissen Handicap; Schwimmen mit Gewichten, usw.). Es ist unbestritten, daß auf dem F-Horn durch das Mitschwingen von 5 Nebenmaxima (Obertöne) ein weit besser tragender Ton entsteht, der selbst im pianissimo weit trägt. Das Forte wird weniger schreiend und bleibt rund und doch metallisch, heldisch, kraftvoll. Was die amerikanischen Hornisten und deren Gebrauch des F-Horns oder der F-Seite des Doppelhorns angeht, bin ich nicht Ihrer Ansicht. Aus meinen vielen Besuchen in den USA weiss ich, daß auch dort eigentlich kaum F-Horn gespielt wird, und wenn doch, dann nur bis zu einer bestimmten (Bruch) Stelle im Umfang. Hier in Deutschland wird jedoch fast ausschliesslich (scheußliches altposaunegleiches) B-Horn geblasen (wir hatten gestern ein Probespiel mit 19 Kandidaten - erfolglos). Es wird nach Klang B eingestimmt, einem Ton (unser eingestrichenes f = f1), einem Ton, der auf dem B-Horn schon nicht gut stimmt. Das ganze Horn ist dann zu tief. Das hohe f2 als leerer Ton auf dem B-Horn eignet sich auch nicht, da es meist zu tief ist. Dann wird das ganze Horn zu hoch. Ein Einstimmen zum angegebenen a1 auf dem Klavier mit unserem a2 auf dem 2.Ventil des B-Horns ist unmöglich. Auch dann wird das Horn zu hoch sein. Ich habe sogar beobachtet, daß Kandidaten beim Einstimmen dieser Art das gespielte Klang a mit der rechten Hand korrigieren und wahrscheinlich gar nicht wissen, daß damit das Horn nicht gestimmt ist. Es gibt nur eine Möglichkeit: A vom Klavier angeben lassen und dazu Klang f2 (unser c2) sowohl auf dem B-Horn als auch auf dem F-Horn einzuregulieren. Unser c2 ist ein auf beiden Hörnern ziemlich gut stimmender Ton. Und, lieber Benno Heinemann, haben Sie vielleicht davon gehört, daß ich immer noch den Grossteil meiner Orchesterarbeit am Solohorn des Staatsorchesters auf der F-Seite und manchmal auch auf dem reinen F-Horn bewältige. Und jetzt habe ich bereits 46 Dienstjahre als Solohornist hinter mir. Ich komme am Ende der Arabella noch mühelost zum cis3 und d3 und dem c3 als Abschlusston, - dank F-Horngebrauch, wo ich es verantworten kann und wo es einfach besser klingt und viel Technik erleichtert. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benno Heinemann Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] F or Bb single?? Joe Duke wrote: > I do not concur with the views of the seller that a single Bb > instrument wo= > uld be more difficult for a beginner to use, and learn on, than would > be an= > F single. Certainly it would be easier to learn on a B-horn than on an F-Horn, but I am certain that the F-Horn is far better for the Beginner not just for Tone quality, but also for the Facility of technique, Attacks, getting about the Break and other problems. I myself learned on the F-Horn until I could play a C-Major scale, then I changed to the B-Horn and never used the f-Horn after that except for certain Notes. My Teacher had heard that starting a Student on the F-Horn gave them a better Sound. There is more to this though, in my opinion as I should have been made to stay on the F-Horn more. Only recently I started working intensively on the F-Horn and find it aids greatly attacks in the middle range, production, sound and fast technique. Helping with problems I think I wouldn't have if I had played more F-Horn earlier. Is it true that one of the greatest alive hornplayers Radovan Vlatkovic used a simple F-Horn for a long time even in college. I believe if we all played more F-Horn we had better sounds, better Technique and Accurateness and Intonation. Just listen to many of our american Players, how they whizz around like nothing on the F-side! It would be shame to disadvantage a young Beginner as to not let him play on the F-Horn. Perhaps he would be all Right on the Bb, perhaps not. A foolish Risk I suspect. My young son, when he is old enough, will be learning the F-Horn. That is certain. > > Any student who wants to learn the horn will find his way, from > whichever b= > eginning point he is shown, in my opinion. True perhaps, but not good necesarily. > > And if he listens to any music recordings of artists he will also soon > be t= > rying to sound like the recordings he hears. Let us hope then, he has a good Teacher who encourages him to listen the best Soloists, and that our Student has some way of access to a Variety of Recordings. I spent my Student Years listening to Baumann's Recordings which I found in a Secondhand Shop. Then attempted to em
Re: [Hornlist] F or Bb single??
Joe Duke wrote: I do not concur with the views of the seller that a single Bb instrument wo= uld be more difficult for a beginner to use, and learn on, than would be an= F single. Certainly it would be easier to learn on a B-horn than on an F-Horn, but I am certain that the F-Horn is far better for the Beginner not just for Tone quality, but also for the Facility of technique, Attacks, getting about the Break and other problems. I myself learned on the F-Horn until I could play a C-Major scale, then I changed to the B-Horn and never used the f-Horn after that except for certain Notes. My Teacher had heard that starting a Student on the F-Horn gave them a better Sound. There is more to this though, in my opinion as I should have been made to stay on the F-Horn more. Only recently I started working intensively on the F-Horn and find it aids greatly attacks in the middle range, production, sound and fast technique. Helping with problems I think I wouldn't have if I had played more F-Horn earlier. Is it true that one of the greatest alive hornplayers Radovan Vlatkovic used a simple F-Horn for a long time even in college. I believe if we all played more F-Horn we had better sounds, better Technique and Accurateness and Intonation. Just listen to many of our american Players, how they whizz around like nothing on the F-side! It would be shame to disadvantage a young Beginner as to not let him play on the F-Horn. Perhaps he would be all Right on the Bb, perhaps not. A foolish Risk I suspect. My young son, when he is old enough, will be learning the F-Horn. That is certain. Any student who wants to learn the horn will find his way, from whichever b= eginning point he is shown, in my opinion. True perhaps, but not good necesarily. And if he listens to any music recordings of artists he will also soon be t= rying to sound like the recordings he hears. Let us hope then, he has a good Teacher who encourages him to listen the best Soloists, and that our Student has some way of access to a Variety of Recordings. I spent my Student Years listening to Baumann's Recordings which I found in a Secondhand Shop. Then attempted to emulate his sound and Vibrato. What Fun! I would not presume to tell some teacher or parent who wants a horn for a y= oung student which would be 'best'!! Yes, much better for them to get advise from someone who knows. That is like telling Arturo Toscannini (or any other known conductor of tod= ay's reknown) how to hold his baton!! Not really, since Toscanini is not a beginning horn Student, he is a dead great Conductor. This is a big difference, and quite obvious. Got 3 cents for me?? No, unless you have got 3 from Finnland for me. They are hard to get here. many Greetings, Benno Heinemann. (Sworn enemy of the double Punctuation Marks) Germany ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F or Bb single??
Hi, friends. The 'comments' made in a description of an instrument which is offered for sale is surely subjective. I do not concur with the views of the seller that a single Bb instrument would be more difficult for a beginner to use, and learn on, than would be an F single. Any student who wants to learn the horn will find his way, from whichever beginning point he is shown, in my opinion. And if he listens to any music recordings of artists he will also soon be trying to sound like the recordings he hears. For many middle school starting players, the lighter-weight single Bb may be a help for them, until they grow in size and strength. I would not presume to tell some teacher or parent who wants a horn for a young student which would be 'best'!! That is like telling Arturo Toscannini (or any other known conductor of today's reknown) how to hold his baton!! Got 3 cents for me?? Joe Duke ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F. Wotruba of Wien F Wagner tuba 3RV
I buy a double wagner tuba from Ricco Kuehn (january 2003) you can see it at this site http://www.ricco-kuehn.de/ the picture of the wagner tuba is from my tuben when i recieved it. It is a double in F and Sib. I go to Montréal Metropolitain Orchestre and the horn players preferd this one to Alex in Sib (those have 4 keys) Ricco Tuben is on the pitch, on the double side. The sound is like a cello, round and warm, very easy to play (more easy than my Hans Hoyer Horn) and i go under the low range with ... and can do a hi F to (over the hi UT) when i buy the tuben, Ricco made 4 for a symphonic orchestra of Berlin. You can add this one to your collection (the photo) François Lefebvre From: Klaus Bjerre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Hornlist] F. Wotruba of Wien F Wagner tuba 3RV Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 01:35:48 +0100 Found some photos of a Wagner tuba supposedly made around 1920. I wondered a bit, why it was made with only 3 valves, as I have understood, that the F tubas sometimes are called upon to play in their low range. Thumbnails of a F. Wotruba of Wien F Wagner tuba 3RV: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotos29/lst?.dir=/F.+W otruba+-+Wien+F+Wagner+tuba+3RV For comparison I add the other Wagner tubas from my galleries: Alexander - Wagner Tuben: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosXIV/files/Alexander%20ho rns-1976%20catalogue/ Thumbnails of two Alexander double Bb/F Wagner tubas 4RV: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotosxix/lst?.dir=/2+A lexander+Wagner+double+tubas Hoyer (B&S) Wagner Tuben from a 1985 catalogue. (1815KB) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosIV/files/Hoyer%20%28B%26 S%29%20WagnerTuben1985.pdf Thumbnails: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotosiv/lst?.dir=/Hoye r+(B%26S)+Wagner+Tuben1985 Knopf Wagner tubas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotos22/files/Knopf%20pre-WWI I%20catalogue%20scans/Wagner%20tubas/ Klaus Bjerre of Denmark Retired teacher Free music files in .pdf format: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterBBb/ (Approved membership required) Index over brass instruments gallery and catalogue scans: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosIII/files/ (Membership is open for all) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/frlefebvre%40hotmail.com _ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F. Wotruba of Wien F Wagner tuba 3RV
Found some photos of a Wagner tuba supposedly made around 1920. I wondered a bit, why it was made with only 3 valves, as I have understood, that the F tubas sometimes are called upon to play in their low range. Thumbnails of a F. Wotruba of Wien F Wagner tuba 3RV: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotos29/lst?.dir=/F.+W otruba+-+Wien+F+Wagner+tuba+3RV For comparison I add the other Wagner tubas from my galleries: Alexander - Wagner Tuben: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosXIV/files/Alexander%20ho rns-1976%20catalogue/ Thumbnails of two Alexander double Bb/F Wagner tubas 4RV: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotosxix/lst?.dir=/2+A lexander+Wagner+double+tubas Hoyer (B&S) Wagner Tuben from a 1985 catalogue. (1815KB) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosIV/files/Hoyer%20%28B%26 S%29%20WagnerTuben1985.pdf Thumbnails: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yorkmasterpublicphotosiv/lst?.dir=/Hoye r+(B%26S)+Wagner+Tuben1985 Knopf Wagner tubas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotos22/files/Knopf%20pre-WWI I%20catalogue%20scans/Wagner%20tubas/ Klaus Bjerre of Denmark Retired teacher Free music files in .pdf format: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterBBb/ (Approved membership required) Index over brass instruments gallery and catalogue scans: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosIII/files/ (Membership is open for all) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Um...my point was (in the section that I mentioned from Mozart 1) that the Bb horn entails many cross-fingerings, whereas the F horn doesn't. Maybe I was unclear about the section to which I was refering. Scott --- Chris Tedesco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well.. I use pretty much only Bb on Mozart 1 to > eliminate most cross > fingerings. Having small hands and a Schmidt wrap, > I have little choice. I > think there is nothing more tedious than practicing > licks just for fingerings. > Having saved myself from that, I can spend the time > on other areas, i.e. sound, > were it an issue. > > I like to think that I use whatever makes a lick > easier and sound better. And > it often is on the F side. I played the New World > Symphony recently, and I > always use F horn on the duet at the end, rising to > the high B's on the f-side. > For me, it's much easier. > > > Chris > > > > --- Scott Pappal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is fascinating advice, Professor. May I > > (respectfully) ask why Strauss 1 as a test piece? > In > > my studio, I've been using Mozart 1 & 3, "concert > > rondo" and Beethoven Sonata as my "test pieces" > before > > allowing a student to study Bb horn. I can't think > of > > any other "plan of study" as complete or thorough > as > > the plan outlined in the "Vienna study plan" on > your > > website. I've done my best to create something > similar > > to it with my own studio. > > > > I was judging horn auditions for a local > university > > "honors band" today. The repertoire was Mozart 1. > > Terrible to see how nearly ALL the young players > held > > the thumb valve down the whole time. Where is the > F > > horn sound - the horn's going to turn into a > trombone > > soon? F horn makes some passages in sharps so much > > easier in my experience. All you B-flatters: Try > the > > last B-A#-B-C#-B-C#-D-C# (in sixteenths in the > Mozart > > 1) on Bb horn, and on F horn. Its so much easier > on > > the longer horn, with no finger contortions. > > > > I was really lucky. I had a horn teacher who > insisted > > that I know every alternate fingering on both > sides of > > the horn, and the reasons for using various > > fingerings. I never use an "arbitrary swith point" > > when playing, and neither do my students! > > > > Scott > > > > --- Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I dont think this a good idea, as all horn > players > > > should be firm in > > > using both sides of the horn in all ranges to > take > > > advantage of better > > > tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier > > > arpeggios, easier & > > > precise attack, etc. > > > > > > Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the > > > Bb-side would result in > > > less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it > > > will be terrible > > > difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right > tone > > > quality later by > > > using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be > then > > > for sure. And > > > Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty > > > fingering #-tonalities, > > > life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. > > > > > > So there is just one solution to reach the top > > > target: > > > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can > play > > > Strauss no.1 (nearly) > > > perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities > are > > > on the F-side. Switch > > > to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but > cultivate > > > the "combined" horn > > > (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both > sides > > > without no > > > limitation to range) after a four to six weeks > > > introduction to the > > > Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. > > > > > > >From then, start cultivating the "right use of > the > > > double horn" - see > > > many examples on my Web Site. But this requires > that > > > the teacher does > > > the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers > are > > > stubbornly staying > > > with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) > exclusive > > > Bb (Germany, GB, > > > Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., > > > Japan, etc.) or > > > breaking at a certain poi
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
And this is he wrong technique, dear Chris, regarding New World Symphony, as we have the Bb-trigger exactly fort hat purpose. Playing the triplet section on the E-horn (F plus 2nd valve), but using the advantage of the A-horn´s 12th harmonic step (Bb-horn plus 2nd valve, so just a nearly invisible action on the trigger) for the high B-natural. So the whole thing comes out in the right way like a rapid call on a natural horn. - == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tedesco Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:23 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn Well.. I use pretty much only Bb on Mozart 1 to eliminate most cross fingerings. Having small hands and a Schmidt wrap, I have little choice. I think there is nothing more tedious than practicing licks just for fingerings. Having saved myself from that, I can spend the time on other areas, i.e. sound, were it an issue. I like to think that I use whatever makes a lick easier and sound better. And it often is on the F side. I played the New World Symphony recently, and I always use F horn on the duet at the end, rising to the high B's on the f-side. For me, it's much easier. Chris --- Scott Pappal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is fascinating advice, Professor. May I > (respectfully) ask why Strauss 1 as a test piece? In > my studio, I've been using Mozart 1 & 3, "concert > rondo" and Beethoven Sonata as my "test pieces" before > allowing a student to study Bb horn. I can't think of > any other "plan of study" as complete or thorough as > the plan outlined in the "Vienna study plan" on your > website. I've done my best to create something similar > to it with my own studio. > > I was judging horn auditions for a local university > "honors band" today. The repertoire was Mozart 1. > Terrible to see how nearly ALL the young players held > the thumb valve down the whole time. Where is the F > horn sound - the horn's going to turn into a trombone > soon? F horn makes some passages in sharps so much > easier in my experience. All you B-flatters: Try the > last B-A#-B-C#-B-C#-D-C# (in sixteenths in the Mozart > 1) on Bb horn, and on F horn. Its so much easier on > the longer horn, with no finger contortions. > > I was really lucky. I had a horn teacher who insisted > that I know every alternate fingering on both sides of > the horn, and the reasons for using various > fingerings. I never use an "arbitrary swith point" > when playing, and neither do my students! > > Scott > > --- Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I dont think this a good idea, as all horn players > > should be firm in > > using both sides of the horn in all ranges to take > > advantage of better > > tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier > > arpeggios, easier & > > precise attack, etc. > > > > Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the > > Bb-side would result in > > less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it > > will be terrible > > difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right tone > > quality later by > > using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be then > > for sure. And > > Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty > > fingering #-tonalities, > > life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. > > > > So there is just one solution to reach the top > > target: > > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play > > Strauss no.1 (nearly) > > perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities are > > on the F-side. Switch > > to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but cultivate > > the "combined" horn > > (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both sides > > without no > > limitation to range) after a four to six weeks > > introduction to the > > Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. > > > > >From then, start cultivating the "right use of the > > double horn" - see > > many examples on my Web Site. But this requires that > > the teacher does > > the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers are > > stubbornly staying > > with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) exclusive > > Bb (Germany, GB, > > Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., > > Japan, etc.) or > > breaking at a certain point e.g. c2 (USA & related). > > > > Reason for the (Most) use of the Bb: recordings, > > safety, clarity - > > sound doesn´t seem to matter any more. But this > > should be o
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Well.. I use pretty much only Bb on Mozart 1 to eliminate most cross fingerings. Having small hands and a Schmidt wrap, I have little choice. I think there is nothing more tedious than practicing licks just for fingerings. Having saved myself from that, I can spend the time on other areas, i.e. sound, were it an issue. I like to think that I use whatever makes a lick easier and sound better. And it often is on the F side. I played the New World Symphony recently, and I always use F horn on the duet at the end, rising to the high B's on the f-side. For me, it's much easier. Chris --- Scott Pappal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is fascinating advice, Professor. May I > (respectfully) ask why Strauss 1 as a test piece? In > my studio, I've been using Mozart 1 & 3, "concert > rondo" and Beethoven Sonata as my "test pieces" before > allowing a student to study Bb horn. I can't think of > any other "plan of study" as complete or thorough as > the plan outlined in the "Vienna study plan" on your > website. I've done my best to create something similar > to it with my own studio. > > I was judging horn auditions for a local university > "honors band" today. The repertoire was Mozart 1. > Terrible to see how nearly ALL the young players held > the thumb valve down the whole time. Where is the F > horn sound - the horn's going to turn into a trombone > soon? F horn makes some passages in sharps so much > easier in my experience. All you B-flatters: Try the > last B-A#-B-C#-B-C#-D-C# (in sixteenths in the Mozart > 1) on Bb horn, and on F horn. Its so much easier on > the longer horn, with no finger contortions. > > I was really lucky. I had a horn teacher who insisted > that I know every alternate fingering on both sides of > the horn, and the reasons for using various > fingerings. I never use an "arbitrary swith point" > when playing, and neither do my students! > > Scott > > --- Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I dont think this a good idea, as all horn players > > should be firm in > > using both sides of the horn in all ranges to take > > advantage of better > > tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier > > arpeggios, easier & > > precise attack, etc. > > > > Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the > > Bb-side would result in > > less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it > > will be terrible > > difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right tone > > quality later by > > using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be then > > for sure. And > > Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty > > fingering #-tonalities, > > life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. > > > > So there is just one solution to reach the top > > target: > > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play > > Strauss no.1 (nearly) > > perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities are > > on the F-side. Switch > > to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but cultivate > > the "combined" horn > > (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both sides > > without no > > limitation to range) after a four to six weeks > > introduction to the > > Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. > > > > >From then, start cultivating the "right use of the > > double horn" - see > > many examples on my Web Site. But this requires that > > the teacher does > > the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers are > > stubbornly staying > > with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) exclusive > > Bb (Germany, GB, > > Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., > > Japan, etc.) or > > breaking at a certain point e.g. c2 (USA & related). > > > > Reason for the (Most) use of the Bb: recordings, > > safety, clarity - > > sound doesn´t seem to matter any more. But this > > should be our great > > chance with the sound. > > > > > === > > > > -Original Message- > > From: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf > > Of Scott Pappal > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 8:13 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn > > > > Someone, I don't recall who, remarked earlier today > > that they start beginning hornists on the Bb horn, > > citing easier pitch-targeting as the reason. While > > I'm > > firmly in the F ho
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Strauss 1 for the future first horns & off course, as you mentioned, Beethovens op.17 & Mozart no.1 & 3 for the others. Thank you very much for your friendly letter. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Pappal Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 6:22 AM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn This is fascinating advice, Professor. May I (respectfully) ask why Strauss 1 as a test piece? In my studio, I've been using Mozart 1 & 3, "concert rondo" and Beethoven Sonata as my "test pieces" before allowing a student to study Bb horn. I can't think of any other "plan of study" as complete or thorough as the plan outlined in the "Vienna study plan" on your website. I've done my best to create something similar to it with my own studio. I was judging horn auditions for a local university "honors band" today. The repertoire was Mozart 1. Terrible to see how nearly ALL the young players held the thumb valve down the whole time. Where is the F horn sound - the horn's going to turn into a trombone soon? F horn makes some passages in sharps so much easier in my experience. All you B-flatters: Try the last B-A#-B-C#-B-C#-D-C# (in sixteenths in the Mozart 1) on Bb horn, and on F horn. Its so much easier on the longer horn, with no finger contortions. I was really lucky. I had a horn teacher who insisted that I know every alternate fingering on both sides of the horn, and the reasons for using various fingerings. I never use an "arbitrary swith point" when playing, and neither do my students! Scott --- Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I dont think this a good idea, as all horn players > should be firm in > using both sides of the horn in all ranges to take > advantage of better > tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier > arpeggios, easier & > precise attack, etc. > > Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the > Bb-side would result in > less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it > will be terrible > difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right tone > quality later by > using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be then > for sure. And > Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty > fingering #-tonalities, > life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. > > So there is just one solution to reach the top > target: > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play > Strauss no.1 (nearly) > perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities are > on the F-side. Switch > to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but cultivate > the "combined" horn > (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both sides > without no > limitation to range) after a four to six weeks > introduction to the > Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. > > >From then, start cultivating the "right use of the > double horn" - see > many examples on my Web Site. But this requires that > the teacher does > the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers are > stubbornly staying > with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) exclusive > Bb (Germany, GB, > Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., > Japan, etc.) or > breaking at a certain point e.g. c2 (USA & related). > > Reason for the (Most) use of the Bb: recordings, > safety, clarity - > sound doesn´t seem to matter any more. But this > should be our great > chance with the sound. > > === > > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf > Of Scott Pappal > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 8:13 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn > > Someone, I don't recall who, remarked earlier today > that they start beginning hornists on the Bb horn, > citing easier pitch-targeting as the reason. While > I'm > firmly in the F horn camp, I'm not going to argue or > open up another discussion about something which has > already been kicked around the list before. Rather, > I'd like to ask if there has been any serious > research > into the F vs Bb horn question. (I do recall one > Instrumentalist article from the '50s in which some > rather well-known American principal horns, > including > Phil Farkas, debate this very question.) While this > is > rather academic, it would be quite fascinating...we > could start two classes of beginning horn players of > approximately the same age, with similar physical > and > mental characteristics. One class would use F horn, > one would use Bb horn. After
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
This is fascinating advice, Professor. May I (respectfully) ask why Strauss 1 as a test piece? In my studio, I've been using Mozart 1 & 3, "concert rondo" and Beethoven Sonata as my "test pieces" before allowing a student to study Bb horn. I can't think of any other "plan of study" as complete or thorough as the plan outlined in the "Vienna study plan" on your website. I've done my best to create something similar to it with my own studio. I was judging horn auditions for a local university "honors band" today. The repertoire was Mozart 1. Terrible to see how nearly ALL the young players held the thumb valve down the whole time. Where is the F horn sound - the horn's going to turn into a trombone soon? F horn makes some passages in sharps so much easier in my experience. All you B-flatters: Try the last B-A#-B-C#-B-C#-D-C# (in sixteenths in the Mozart 1) on Bb horn, and on F horn. Its so much easier on the longer horn, with no finger contortions. I was really lucky. I had a horn teacher who insisted that I know every alternate fingering on both sides of the horn, and the reasons for using various fingerings. I never use an "arbitrary swith point" when playing, and neither do my students! Scott --- Hans Pizka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I dont think this a good idea, as all horn players > should be firm in > using both sides of the horn in all ranges to take > advantage of better > tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier > arpeggios, easier & > precise attack, etc. > > Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the > Bb-side would result in > less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it > will be terrible > difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right tone > quality later by > using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be then > for sure. And > Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty > fingering #-tonalities, > life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. > > So there is just one solution to reach the top > target: > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play > Strauss no.1 (nearly) > perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities are > on the F-side. Switch > to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but cultivate > the "combined" horn > (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both sides > without no > limitation to range) after a four to six weeks > introduction to the > Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. > > >From then, start cultivating the "right use of the > double horn" - see > many examples on my Web Site. But this requires that > the teacher does > the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers are > stubbornly staying > with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) exclusive > Bb (Germany, GB, > Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., > Japan, etc.) or > breaking at a certain point e.g. c2 (USA & related). > > Reason for the (Most) use of the Bb: recordings, > safety, clarity - > sound doesn´t seem to matter any more. But this > should be our great > chance with the sound. > > === > > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf > Of Scott Pappal > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 8:13 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn > > Someone, I don't recall who, remarked earlier today > that they start beginning hornists on the Bb horn, > citing easier pitch-targeting as the reason. While > I'm > firmly in the F horn camp, I'm not going to argue or > open up another discussion about something which has > already been kicked around the list before. Rather, > I'd like to ask if there has been any serious > research > into the F vs Bb horn question. (I do recall one > Instrumentalist article from the '50s in which some > rather well-known American principal horns, > including > Phil Farkas, debate this very question.) While this > is > rather academic, it would be quite fascinating...we > could start two classes of beginning horn players of > approximately the same age, with similar physical > and > mental characteristics. One class would use F horn, > one would use Bb horn. After five years of > instruction, we could have them play for a panel of > ten professional horn players and teachers for an > adjudication, and see who comes out ahead. Or, we > could wait and see which group has more students > reach > the professional level. Any researchers want to try > this project? I would, but I'm too busy teaching my > F > horn players:) > > Cordially Yours, Scott Pap
Re: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Lawrence: This is exactly the type of anecdote I was looking for. Thank you for sharing! Any others out there have similar experiences? P.S. Occasionally, in my studio horn choir, my students and I have "F Horn Day" where every player, no matter what the speed or range, must not press the trigger! Its interesting to see who can go the longest without a catastrophic miss or clam! My students love it though. Scott --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 02/11/2003 22:47:47 GMT Standard > Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > To be honest, I almost consider it irresponsible > to start a student on a Bb > > > > horn. The player is going to live and die by the > sound of his horn, not how > > > > easy it is to play > > A colleague of mine and I both taught horn - I > insisted on starting pupils on > the F side, my colleague started them on the Bb side > "because it was easier > to get them to play a tune". > > My colleagues pupils were ready to play in the > junior brass group long before > mine were. Eventually mine caught up. When it came > to playing in the senior > groups however, although both could rattle off great > numbers of notes and > could basically do much the same thing, my > colleague's pupils were all but > unusable because of the awful noise they made - > something rather like a cross > between a trumpet and a tenor horn. > > As for my beginnings, I started on the F side > (mainly because I didn't have a > horn teacher and didn't really know what the thumb > valve was for) > > I changed on to the Bb side when I started college > and after many years > playing almost exclusively on the Bb side, now play > a mixture of the two, but not > sticking to any rigid pattern. > > All the best, > > Lawrence > > AOL is having problems at the moment - if you do not > receive an > acknowledgement within 24 hours (I usually reply > within a couple of hours), please re-send > your e-mail - I probably haven't received it. > > http://lawrenceyates.co.uk > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hornhog%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
I started on a full double. For a while I didn't know all the Bb fingerings on where I used the F side, or the F fingerings where I normally used the Bb side. A few years ago I decided to learn them all, and I can tell you it sure does help. Yes it does sound differently on the Bb side but if you have some fast arpeggios or runs through partials from a low F below middle C to around the C in the treble staff and if they occur fast enough I always employ the Bb side because it's cleaner. You'd be amazed at the difference the Bb side can make in regions you don't normally use it. Of course this isn't to say one should neglect the F side. In fact I only employ the Bb side in regions I normally don't use it in times that it is more advantageous. I mean if one plays on a double (or triple) horn, one should know every bit of the range and fingerings for both (or all three) horns. One should also be familiar with each partial, where they are, and even alternate fingerings and their pitch tendencies. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
In a message dated 02/11/2003 22:47:47 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > To be honest, I almost consider it irresponsible to start a student on a Bb > > horn. The player is going to live and die by the sound of his horn, not how > > easy it is to play A colleague of mine and I both taught horn - I insisted on starting pupils on the F side, my colleague started them on the Bb side "because it was easier to get them to play a tune". My colleagues pupils were ready to play in the junior brass group long before mine were. Eventually mine caught up. When it came to playing in the senior groups however, although both could rattle off great numbers of notes and could basically do much the same thing, my colleague's pupils were all but unusable because of the awful noise they made - something rather like a cross between a trumpet and a tenor horn. As for my beginnings, I started on the F side (mainly because I didn't have a horn teacher and didn't really know what the thumb valve was for) I changed on to the Bb side when I started college and after many years playing almost exclusively on the Bb side, now play a mixture of the two, but not sticking to any rigid pattern. All the best, Lawrence AOL is having problems at the moment - if you do not receive an acknowledgement within 24 hours (I usually reply within a couple of hours), please re-send your e-mail - I probably haven't received it. http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
In a message dated 11/01/2003 11:13:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Cordially Yours, Scott Papal PS I wonder what all the professional horn players/teachers on this list started on? Of course, we all know professor Pizka started on the F and natural horns, but what of the others of you who play and teach professionally? As a matter of fact, what did you amateurs all start on, F or Bb? >> I started on an F horn, but now find that I use the Bb horn for much more of my playing. Still, I'm glad I started on an F horn. The F horn is the most agreed upon tonality of the instrument. That tonality has to be imprinted on the brain from the very start. Once the tonality is well established, the double horn should be introduced, with the changeover being no lower than C. This is the range where the Bb horn arguably produces an equal, or better, tonality than the F horn. This Bb tonality must be integrated with the already established F tonality to extend the upper range with a tonality based on the F tonality, but better than the F tonality alone. By this point, a student should have developed his individual concept of tonality to strive for. He will then pick the mouthpiece and (type of) instrument he believes gives him the best combination of playing security and tonality. To be honest, I almost consider it irresponsible to start a student on a Bb horn. The player is going to live and die by the sound of his horn, not how easy it is to play. If he doesn't have it in him to strive for magnificent tone, and learn how to trade off reasonable risk to attain it, start him on a Bb trumpet. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Hans Pizka wrote: > So there is just one solution to reach the top target: > Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play Strauss no.1 (nearly) > perfect. When I was doing auditions to get a place at Music College, I only played on the F side of the horn. I came to the horn from a background of Eb "Tenor" horn (orEb Alto horn depending on where you come from). Being a naturally lazy person, I couldn't be bothered learning the fingering for the Bb horn! Consequently I played Strauss 1 and Villanelle at my auditions on the F horn. Only one person commented on this to me and that was Ifor James, who asked me to wait until he had a break. He came out to me and handed me a piece of paper with the different fingering for Bb and F, and persuaded me, that I only had to learn a few new fingerings! Well, I don't advocate anyone only using the F horn for the reason I did as a very green 17 year old, but I certainly insist on any of my students using the F horn first. BTW I play on a Paxman model 40, Bb/High F most of the time, which I am sure some will not approve of, but without my basic knowledge of how an F horn functions, I would be only a quarter the player I am. and I always use an F horn to warm up with nowadays, just in case that Bb horn Alex 103 sound is catching ;-) Francis o Francis Pressland _ -' Principal Horn ,'###`. Niederrheinische Sinfoniker // F P \ _Krefeld/MÃnchengladbach || (_| | ,' `. \\ __ ,'. . Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] `.___ | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `-.` ' Tel : +49 2166 47986 `._.' ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
I dont think this a good idea, as all horn players should be firm in using both sides of the horn in all ranges to take advantage of better tuned notes of both sides, better sound, easier arpeggios, easier & precise attack, etc. Yes, I agree, that starting the students on the Bb-side would result in less cracked notes, but just for a while. But it will be terrible difficult to teach the BB-beginners the right tone quality later by using the F-side then. The "malaise" will be then for sure. And Bb-beginners will complain about the difficulty fingering #-tonalities, life long complain, life long squeezed fingers. So there is just one solution to reach the top target: Start on the F-side & stay with it until can play Strauss no.1 (nearly) perfect. Find out how much easier #-tonalities are on the F-side. Switch to the Bb-horn use in the 5th year, but cultivate the "combined" horn (fingering in a way, taking advantage of both sides without no limitation to range) after a four to six weeks introduction to the Bb-horn, by playing every note on the Bb-side. >From then, start cultivating the "right use of the double horn" - see many examples on my Web Site. But this requires that the teacher does the same, but I doubt this, as too many teachers are stubbornly staying with the exclusive F (Vienna) or (nearly) exclusive Bb (Germany, GB, Scandinavia except Finland, Russia, Czech Rep., Japan, etc.) or breaking at a certain point e.g. c2 (USA & related). Reason for the (Most) use of the Bb: recordings, safety, clarity - sound doesn´t seem to matter any more. But this should be our great chance with the sound. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Pappal Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 8:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn Someone, I don't recall who, remarked earlier today that they start beginning hornists on the Bb horn, citing easier pitch-targeting as the reason. While I'm firmly in the F horn camp, I'm not going to argue or open up another discussion about something which has already been kicked around the list before. Rather, I'd like to ask if there has been any serious research into the F vs Bb horn question. (I do recall one Instrumentalist article from the '50s in which some rather well-known American principal horns, including Phil Farkas, debate this very question.) While this is rather academic, it would be quite fascinating...we could start two classes of beginning horn players of approximately the same age, with similar physical and mental characteristics. One class would use F horn, one would use Bb horn. After five years of instruction, we could have them play for a panel of ten professional horn players and teachers for an adjudication, and see who comes out ahead. Or, we could wait and see which group has more students reach the professional level. Any researchers want to try this project? I would, but I'm too busy teaching my F horn players:) Cordially Yours, Scott Pappal P.S. I wonder what all the professional horn players/teachers on this list started on? Of course, we all know professor Pizka started on the F and natural horns, but what of the others of you who play and teach professionally? As a matter of fact, what did you amateurs all start on, F or Bb? __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] F horn/Bb horn
Someone, I don't recall who, remarked earlier today that they start beginning hornists on the Bb horn, citing easier pitch-targeting as the reason. While I'm firmly in the F horn camp, I'm not going to argue or open up another discussion about something which has already been kicked around the list before. Rather, I'd like to ask if there has been any serious research into the F vs Bb horn question. (I do recall one Instrumentalist article from the '50s in which some rather well-known American principal horns, including Phil Farkas, debate this very question.) While this is rather academic, it would be quite fascinating...we could start two classes of beginning horn players of approximately the same age, with similar physical and mental characteristics. One class would use F horn, one would use Bb horn. After five years of instruction, we could have them play for a panel of ten professional horn players and teachers for an adjudication, and see who comes out ahead. Or, we could wait and see which group has more students reach the professional level. Any researchers want to try this project? I would, but I'm too busy teaching my F horn players:) Cordially Yours, Scott Pappal P.S. I wonder what all the professional horn players/teachers on this list started on? Of course, we all know professor Pizka started on the F and natural horns, but what of the others of you who play and teach professionally? As a matter of fact, what did you amateurs all start on, F or Bb? __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
