Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup
so you can use authsmtp.com to send directly from CSSMTP? When you send the email, does it come from where you say it should or do you have to use a special email that they give you? That would be great. I assume they have an smtp server that you set up in the targetname field. Do you know if they use port 25, 26 or 587? I think if it works, it would be a great solution. I tried sending them a question, but there contact form fails. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: I have no knowledge
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 01:41:36 PM PDT, Tom Brennan > wrote: > The AIU (Integrated Artificial Intelligence Accelerator Unit) is a > portion of each chip in a z16, maybe about 1% of chip real estate, that > contains something they call the "Matrix Compute Array" containing 128 > "Processor Tiles" (whatever those are). To me, those PT's make it look > more like a GPU than FPU. Matrix Compute Array makes more sense than simple computations. With FPUs being multi-core, they could use a core to represent each entry in the matrix. This makes it a little easier to understand how they are using it represent selection criteria or concept correlation. GPT-4 had its definitions leaked and from what I understood (could be very wrong), the first selection is based on broad categories and filtered down from there. With enough horsepower, you can solve any problem. On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 01:41:36 PM PDT, Tom Brennan wrote: The AIU (Integrated Artificial Intelligence Accelerator Unit) is a portion of each chip in a z16, maybe about 1% of chip real estate, that contains something they call the "Matrix Compute Array" containing 128 "Processor Tiles" (whatever those are). To me, those PT's make it look more like a GPU than FPU. The AIU also contains controlling AI firmware and has direct access to the chip's cache, something a PC graphics card might have a bit of trouble doing. On 7/31/2023 12:31 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: > The current implementation of AI is based on mathematical calculations. > Rather than PCs using an FPU, they use graphics cards with GPU for these > calculations. I'm guessing that IBM uses FPUs which can reach speeds of 5 > exa-FLOPs. I have no clue how they are making the leap from computations to > decision processing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
Mostly the same CCW opcodes. ECKD added some and a few obsolete ones are gone. Of course, FBA and FCP are new. Physical volumes are another matter - he's dead, Jim. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 10:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica On 7/31/23 12:45 PM, Colin Paice wrote: > A volume is a convenient picture - they no longer exist on modern DASD. ACK My limited understanding is that the S/360 or S/370 would probably not recognize anything in use today as DASD. The S/390 /might/ see something that vaguely reminds it of DASD through ESCON / FICON. It seems as if things are significant numbers of layers of abstraction and emulation. > Data is spread across many different PC sized disks. Yep. It's amazing if not mind blowing what can be done with abstraction and virtualization of storage. > We have extended volumes which are bigger than traditional volumes. > It gives more space for the same number of volumes. :-) > A "track" is mapped to one PC sized disk, and block on disk.. > If you rewrite a track it will most probably go to a different > PC disk. In the storage controller there is a big array which has > VOLID.CYL.Track -> pcdisk.position. I'm not unpacking and scrutinizing that based on your "Some of the above is not true" comment. > I can "copy a dataset" on the same DASD subsystem just by copying > the relevant bits of this array. So if we have part of dataset1 > USER00.00.01 -> PCDISK1. 4000 the copy creates USER99.4002.12 -> > PCDISK1.4000. This copy takes a second or so. There is no data > transfer. If you update dataset1, then its VOLID.CYL.track will > point to a new block, and so the arrays diverge. This sounds like what I generally hear referred to as "copy on write" and is frequent enough that it's abbreviated as C.O.W. and multiple things support this, one even with COW in the file name. > If we copy the dataset to a different DASD subsystem - then every block > will be read - and written to the other subsystem. Yep. > Some of the above is not true - but it gives the picture. ;-) Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 7/31/23 12:45 PM, Colin Paice wrote: A volume is a convenient picture - they no longer exist on modern DASD. ACK My limited understanding is that the S/360 or S/370 would probably not recognize anything in use today as DASD. The S/390 /might/ see something that vaguely reminds it of DASD through ESCON / FICON. It seems as if things are significant numbers of layers of abstraction and emulation. Data is spread across many different PC sized disks. Yep. It's amazing if not mind blowing what can be done with abstraction and virtualization of storage. We have extended volumes which are bigger than traditional volumes. It gives more space for the same number of volumes. :-) A "track" is mapped to one PC sized disk, and block on disk.. If you rewrite a track it will most probably go to a different PC disk. In the storage controller there is a big array which has VOLID.CYL.Track -> pcdisk.position. I'm not unpacking and scrutinizing that based on your "Some of the above is not true" comment. I can "copy a dataset" on the same DASD subsystem just by copying the relevant bits of this array. So if we have part of dataset1 USER00.00.01 -> PCDISK1. 4000 the copy creates USER99.4002.12 -> PCDISK1.4000. This copy takes a second or so. There is no data transfer. If you update dataset1, then its VOLID.CYL.track will point to a new block, and so the arrays diverge. This sounds like what I generally hear referred to as "copy on write" and is frequent enough that it's abbreviated as C.O.W. and multiple things support this, one even with COW in the file name. If we copy the dataset to a different DASD subsystem - then every block will be read - and written to the other subsystem. Yep. Some of the above is not true - but it gives the picture. ;-) Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
My first job at Packard Electric, we had 2 mainframes, 1 for production, a NAS 9000, and 1 for development, a NAS 6650. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Monday, July 31, 2023, 7:40 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: Something that I read (in one post or another) indicated, to me, that Fujitsu was buying Amdahl machines. Wasn't pointing fingers. I know that Fujitsu owned 40% of Amdahl in the late 80s when I got hired. It was a sad day when they exercised their right to buy the rest of Amdahl. I lost money on that taking. I think I still have an Amdahl stock certificate somewhere. Steve Thompson On 7/31/2023 6:54 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: > Steve Thompson wrote, in part: >> Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines > If you were replying to me, note that I didn't say they bought Amdahl > machines; I said they bought Amdahl: > "Fujitsu agreed to acquire the 58 percent of Amdahl Corporation (including > the Canada-based DMR consulting group) that it did not already own for around > $850 million in July 1997." > https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/31/business/fujitsu-to-pay-850-million-to-acquire-rest-of-amdahl.html > > And thanks to those reminding me it was the z800 that Hitachi built for IBM. > I had about the right period in my wee brain but couldn't remember which > machine! > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Regards, Steve Thompson VS Strategies LLC Westfield IN 972-983-9430 cell -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] : Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
I actually traveled to Japan to work on an Amdahl machine installed there. We visited the factory where the base machines were built and then sent to Amdahl for their modifications. My time at Amdahl was fantastic. Best technology (PERIOD) and some of the best people I ever worked with. We pushed like crazy to have Fujitsu move from 31-bit to 64-bit and keep competing with the new CMOS machines. However, FJs fascination with high-end unix ended that dream. I left Amdahl/Fujitsu America after a small amount of time working on the unit stuff. Jon Nolting System Administrator Engineering IT jon.nolt...@oracle.com 425-295-1733 (Cell) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 4:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] : Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:29:22 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote: >Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines, Phil didn't say that Fujitsu bought Amdahl machines. He said that they bought Amdahl. This is true. >Fujitsu supplied Amdahl with their machines I worked for Amdahl too, from 1978 to 1984. I started as a field Systems Engineer, often finding and occasionally fixing bugs in MVS. When MVS abended on an Amdahl machine, IBM would take the position that it must be the hardware, unless the customer could reproduce it in an IBM machine.Then I cross-trained to hardware, then an SE Specialist. During that time frame, Fujitsu did not supply Amdahl with their machines. Amdahl designed and built their own machines. IIRC Amdahl designed the chips. I don't remember who fabricated the chips, but it might have been Fujitsu. Probably other components were supplied by Fujitsu as well. >with the MODs we (yeah, I worked for Amdahl >prior to 1990) asked for/needed, and then for instructions we >didn't have micro-store for, Micro-store? There was no micro-store on the 470 or 580 (5850,5860, 5870 and 5880) systems. All instructions were implemented entirely in hardware. On the 470 series, that caused Amdahl to be at a disadvantage when IBM added new instructions. Instead, Amdahl used software emulation for the new instructions. The first of these was MVS/SE Assist, an enhancement to the Program Interruption First-Level Interrupt Handler. It would detect the PIC 1 and emulate the instruction in software if it was something that it handled. The 580 had a radical new design. During a three month stint at headquarters, I worked with the 580 console project and I had my own, numbered and registered copy of the ALTA Principles of operation. Among other things, it defined a mechanism to permit another level of virtualization, allowing 4 Domains to be defined and mapping System storage to domain storage. Sometimes I wish I had "forgotten" to return it when I left... To manage it, there was a new state, System state, in addition to Problem and Supervisor state. System state registers registers for use only when in System state. Special System state instructions to do things like moving data between the normal registers and the system state registers. The design included 31 or 32 bit memory (I forget which) and a much improved channel subsystem. When 370/XA came out a year or two later, I looked in the XA POO for anything that didn't more or less fit in the ALTA design and didn't find anything. Macrocode ran in System state IIRC it was loaded into System storage by the console processor. The console on the 580 was a separate 370 processor on one MCC that ran the UTS flavor of Unix. That was my first exposure to Unix. Macrocode mapped System storage to domain storage and system channels to domain channels. All interruptions went through Macrocode. New instructions could be simulated by Macrocode >we used FAM (Fast Assist Mode) which >we then emulated instructions (part of MacroCode). > ... > >And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and >education in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short >time I was there. Same here. And the training was top notch. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Something that I read (in one post or another) indicated, to me, that Fujitsu was buying Amdahl machines. Wasn't pointing fingers. I know that Fujitsu owned 40% of Amdahl in the late 80s when I got hired. It was a sad day when they exercised their right to buy the rest of Amdahl. I lost money on that taking. I think I still have an Amdahl stock certificate somewhere. Steve Thompson On 7/31/2023 6:54 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: Steve Thompson wrote, in part: Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines If you were replying to me, note that I didn't say they bought Amdahl machines; I said they bought Amdahl: "Fujitsu agreed to acquire the 58 percent of Amdahl Corporation (including the Canada-based DMR consulting group) that it did not already own for around $850 million in July 1997." https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/31/business/fujitsu-to-pay-850-million-to-acquire-rest-of-amdahl.html And thanks to those reminding me it was the z800 that Hitachi built for IBM. I had about the right period in my wee brain but couldn't remember which machine! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Regards, Steve Thompson VS Strategies LLC Westfield IN 972-983-9430 cell -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Ignorant z/OS question
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 04:04:02 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > I see no reason to repeatedly give the same answer Again with non-answers. I've only asked you to identify the lie in this one Email so how did you repeat an answer you never gave. If you stay out of my way then I will stay out of your way. This must include dismissive statements as if they are fact. On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 04:04:02 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: I see no reason to repeatedly give the same answer to a rude and arrogant hypocrite with delusions of adequacy. And yes, I knew that you were a putz. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 6:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. You said I lied again in that Email. Your non-answer is not an answer. What specifically in that Email is "disagree about" that is a lie? I don't want your respect but I will not accept disrespect from See-more Putz. On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. When you launch gratuitous ad hominem attacks on me then you have forfeited any claim to respect. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 6:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > You are repeating the same old lie. What lie are you saying I'm repeating? z/VM console 3215 for screen scraping? Are you saying you asked a question in trying to understand my point? Are you saying as your message didn't imply, it's inconceivable my I point may have merit? Are you saying your last message was in any way an attempt to show any type of respect for my opinion? Are you saying that your response was not intended to deny all possibility that you could be wrong and I may have a valid point. What is the lie? See-more Putz proving you can't fix stupid. Is this really the direction you want to take this? On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. Can you honestly make the same claim? I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses > and device types matching. Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he. z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has it's uses. Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and that you can't possibly be wrong? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / s
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:29:22 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote: >Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines, Phil didn't say that Fujitsu bought Amdahl machines. He said that they bought Amdahl. This is true. >Fujitsu supplied Amdahl with their machines I worked for Amdahl too, from 1978 to 1984. I started as a field Systems Engineer, often finding and occasionally fixing bugs in MVS. When MVS abended on an Amdahl machine, IBM would take the position that it must be the hardware, unless the customer could reproduce it in an IBM machine.Then I cross-trained to hardware, then an SE Specialist. During that time frame, Fujitsu did not supply Amdahl with their machines. Amdahl designed and built their own machines. IIRC Amdahl designed the chips. I don't remember who fabricated the chips, but it might have been Fujitsu. Probably other components were supplied by Fujitsu as well. >with the MODs we (yeah, I worked for Amdahl >prior to 1990) asked for/needed, and then for instructions we >didn't have micro-store for, Micro-store? There was no micro-store on the 470 or 580 (5850,5860, 5870 and 5880) systems. All instructions were implemented entirely in hardware. On the 470 series, that caused Amdahl to be at a disadvantage when IBM added new instructions. Instead, Amdahl used software emulation for the new instructions. The first of these was MVS/SE Assist, an enhancement to the Program Interruption First-Level Interrupt Handler. It would detect the PIC 1 and emulate the instruction in software if it was something that it handled. The 580 had a radical new design. During a three month stint at headquarters, I worked with the 580 console project and I had my own, numbered and registered copy of the ALTA Principles of operation. Among other things, it defined a mechanism to permit another level of virtualization, allowing 4 Domains to be defined and mapping System storage to domain storage. Sometimes I wish I had "forgotten" to return it when I left... To manage it, there was a new state, System state, in addition to Problem and Supervisor state. System state registers registers for use only when in System state. Special System state instructions to do things like moving data between the normal registers and the system state registers. The design included 31 or 32 bit memory (I forget which) and a much improved channel subsystem. When 370/XA came out a year or two later, I looked in the XA POO for anything that didn't more or less fit in the ALTA design and didn't find anything. Macrocode ran in System state IIRC it was loaded into System storage by the console processor. The console on the 580 was a separate 370 processor on one MCC that ran the UTS flavor of Unix. That was my first exposure to Unix. Macrocode mapped System storage to domain storage and system channels to domain channels. All interruptions went through Macrocode. New instructions could be simulated by Macrocode >we used FAM (Fast Assist Mode) which >we then emulated instructions (part of MacroCode). > ... > >And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and >education in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short >time I was there. Same here. And the training was top notch. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Preferred FTP Client for Windows
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 17:16:20 -0500, Kirk Wolf wrote: >Here's the direct URL to the User's Guide: >https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/index.html > >for FILEDATA=Record, here's an example: > >ls /+mode=binary,linerule=L4 > >(There are a number of different linerule options, including rdw, crlf, nl, >etc.) > And I suspect RDW is incompatible with FILE DATA=RECORD. It takes only two IBM designers, not communicating, to achieve that. I once did a GET to desktop with format RECORD. Even as promised it returned the RDWs as data. Than I did a PUT to a different MVS data set with the same option. It faithfully treated the RDW images as data. Now I have two RDWs on each record. There's no way to create an incident for that: It's behaving precisely as documented. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
The last Fujitsu mainframe is scheduled for 2030 and dropping all support by 2035. Honeywell Bull GCOS and Unisys OS 2200 and MCP are now x86 based. Are these mainframes or are they PCs? On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 08:40:25 AM PDT, Steve Thompson wrote: I just have to throw this in here. IBM is not the only maker of Mainframes. I understand that Fujitsu still makes mainframes. Does UNISYS still make mainframes? How about Honeywell Bull? Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't frequent the right web sites)? Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 1/08/2023 12:16 am, Rick Troth wrote: But, again, an automount per user does not necessarily mean a filesystem per user. Agree... but I was specifically talking about a filesystem per user as a bad thing. This seems to have become a common thing on z/OS. -- Andrew Rowley Black Hill Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Ignorant z/OS question
I see no reason to repeatedly give the same answer to a rude and arrogant hypocrite with delusions of adequacy. And yes, I knew that you were a putz. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 6:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. You said I lied again in that Email. Your non-answer is not an answer. What specifically in that Email is "disagree about" that is a lie? I don't want your respect but I will not accept disrespect from See-more Putz. On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. When you launch gratuitous ad hominem attacks on me then you have forfeited any claim to respect. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 6:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > You are repeating the same old lie. What lie are you saying I'm repeating? z/VM console 3215 for screen scraping? Are you saying you asked a question in trying to understand my point? Are you saying as your message didn't imply, it's inconceivable my I point may have merit? Are you saying your last message was in any way an attempt to show any type of respect for my opinion? Are you saying that your response was not intended to deny all possibility that you could be wrong and I may have a valid point. What is the lie? See-more Putz proving you can't fix stupid. Is this really the direction you want to take this? On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. Can you honestly make the same claim? I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses > and device types matching. Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he. z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has it's uses. Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and that you can't possibly be wrong? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup
Brian Westerman asked: >I think there are 3rd party sites that offer the use of SMTP for forwarding >that I might want to give a try. I've used authsmtp.com for ~20 years. Good folks and it Just Works. When I've had weird issues, they do the analysis and get right back to me, even though it's never been their fault. Another good ISP is EasyDNS out of Toronto. I switched to them for domain hosting when SPF started to matter and my previous provider didn't support SRS rewrites, causing replies to me to fail. Also good folks, same comment about jumping in on problems and proving cheerfully and clearly that it's not them. HTH -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Steve Thompson wrote, in part: >Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines If you were replying to me, note that I didn't say they bought Amdahl machines; I said they bought Amdahl: "Fujitsu agreed to acquire the 58 percent of Amdahl Corporation (including the Canada-based DMR consulting group) that it did not already own for around $850 million in July 1997." https://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/31/business/fujitsu-to-pay-850-million-to-acquire-rest-of-amdahl.html And thanks to those reminding me it was the z800 that Hitachi built for IBM. I had about the right period in my wee brain but couldn't remember which machine! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Ignorant z/OS question
> On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. You said I lied again in that Email. Your non-answer is not an answer. What specifically in that Email is "disagree about" that is a lie? I don't want your respect but I will not accept disrespect from See-more Putz. On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 03:39:46 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: I'm saying that you are lying about what we disagree about. When you launch gratuitous ad hominem attacks on me then you have forfeited any claim to respect. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 6:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > You are repeating the same old lie. What lie are you saying I'm repeating? z/VM console 3215 for screen scraping? Are you saying you asked a question in trying to understand my point? Are you saying as your message didn't imply, it's inconceivable my I point may have merit? Are you saying your last message was in any way an attempt to show any type of respect for my opinion? Are you saying that your response was not intended to deny all possibility that you could be wrong and I may have a valid point. What is the lie? See-more Putz proving you can't fix stupid. Is this really the direction you want to take this? On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 01:11:05 PM PDT, Seymour J Metz wrote: You are repeating the same old lie. In fact, I am aware that I sumetimes err and I have thanked people one this list for correcting errors that I have made. Can you honestly make the same claim? I will consistently respect opinions for others when they have a basis in fact. I, however, do not suffer fools gladly and do not respect the opinions of those who deliberately misrepresent what is in contention. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jon Perryman [jperr...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 4:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Ignorant z/OS question > On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 09:04:58 AM PDT, Seymour J Metz > wrote: > WTF? It has nothing to do with screen scraping. It has to do with addresses > and device types matching. Once again Seymour fails to ask even one basic question to determine if there is any merit. Seymour's incompetence once again demands I must be wrong because it's inconceivable that anyone can be more knowledgeable than he. z/OS 3270 to z/VM 3215 CONSOLE to a SECUSER running z/VM PROP to capture the 3270 data stream. Only a couple more pieces of the puzzle to figure out and you can quickly prototype a screen scraper. If someone wants to see 3270 data stream, they have easy access through z/VM 3215 console. Device mismatching has it's uses. Seymour, in the future, do you plan on respecting opinions from others or will you continue to insist that your opinion is the only one with true merit and that you can't possibly be wrong? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Preferred FTP Client for Windows
Here's the direct URL to the User's Guide: https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/index.html for FILEDATA=Record, here's an example: ls /+mode=binary,linerule=L4 (There are a number of different linerule options, including rdw, crlf, nl, etc.) Also, if you have Co:Z on both sides, you can use the enhanced "dsput" and "dsget" commands to simplify dataset transfer with like allocations, sending entire PDS(E)s, etc. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies https://coztoolkit.com On Fri, Jul 28, 2023, at 10:43 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 09:58:04 -0500, John S. Giltner, Jr wrote: > >... > >ls /+mode=text > > > It's a pity that sftp provides no analogue of QUOTE SITE to do such things > cleanly. > > Is there "ls /+mode=record" to deal with FILEDATA=RECORD. One might want to > "get" a traditional data set, supplying RDWs for the client. > > Is there support for CCSID tagging? > > Is the reference manual available? > > -- > gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
I remember that class. Not from Amdahl though. I took it from IBM. Lots of good information which stayed with you. Another one like that was MVS Performance. We went to 909 3rd Avenue, NYC for that one. Took the train from New Haven. Bill Hitefield Dino-Software Corporation 800.480.DINO www.dino-software.com > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Steve Thompson > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:50 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How > it runs and why it survives > > I had to take the MVS Structure and Flow class as part of my job. > It was 2 weeks long and I felt numb after that drink from a fire hose. But > what I > learned there I have been using ever since anytime I was doing low level > programming as a developer. > > Steve Thompson > > > > On 7/31/2023 5:02 PM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > Me too. I learned more in the MVS Internals course I took from Amdahl > > than any other mainframe class. Really sharp folks. > > > > On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 16:50 Tom Brennan > wrote: > > > >> I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The > >> instructors were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so relaxed > >> having fun teaching. I had a great couple of weeks and learned tons. > >> > >> On 7/31/2023 1:29 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: > >>> And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and education > >>> in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short time I was there. > >> - > >> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > >> IBM-MAIN > >> > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Just the z800! Regards Parwez Hamid From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Tom Marchant <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: 31 July 2023 22:33 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:33:26 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: >I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean >anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. IIRC it was Hitachi that built the z800 and z890 using IBM chips. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Tom Marchant <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: 31 July 2023 22:33 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Makers WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:33:26 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: >I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean >anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. IIRC it was Hitachi that built the z800 and z890 using IBM chips. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
Our site had 3,000 mostly M9s totaling 30 TB. 4 Ess f20 consolidated to two Ess 800 then 1 EMC Max when I retired. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 10:46 Grant Taylor < 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On 7/31/23 6:37 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > It's not just CPU power or number of cores, but the ability to connect > > thousands of volumes of data and access them simultaneously, and move > > that data from point A to point B efficiently. > > Please elaborate, are those volumes separate DASD devices or are they > possibly some logical component thereon? > > I also wonder how common it is to have four digits of volumes (physical > or logical) varied on at the same time. > > I wonder this about both mainframes and some of the largest Open Systems > that I've been exposed to. > > Hundreds absolutely happens. I don't know about a thousand or more. > > Also, what constitutes a volume? How different are FCP and FC LUNs? > How different are they when the same back end storage system is > exporting LUNs to both mainframe and Open Systems, with the primary > difference being FCP vs traditional FC? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
I had to take the MVS Structure and Flow class as part of my job. It was 2 weeks long and I felt numb after that drink from a fire hose. But what I learned there I have been using ever since anytime I was doing low level programming as a developer. Steve Thompson On 7/31/2023 5:02 PM, Jay Maynard wrote: Me too. I learned more in the MVS Internals course I took from Amdahl than any other mainframe class. Really sharp folks. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 16:50 Tom Brennan wrote: I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The instructors were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so relaxed having fun teaching. I had a great couple of weeks and learned tons. On 7/31/2023 1:29 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and education in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short time I was there. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
+1000 Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 > On Jul 31, 2023, at 17:08, Tom Brennan wrote: > > Yes, a z16 is actually a mainframe. Why? Because I know it when I see it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 14:33:26 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: >I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean >anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. IIRC it was Hitachi that built the z800 and z890 using IBM chips. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
I don't think you'll ever get a definitive answer, and comparing parts won't help much. My only answer is the same as what Justice Stewart wrote in 1964. Yes, a z16 is actually a mainframe. Why? Because I know it when I see it. On 7/31/2023 12:03 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:26:15 AM PDT, Tom Brennan wrote: Maybe if you told us why you're asking, people could give better answers. In my opinion the only difference between a z16 running z/OS and a Google server is design philosophy and nothing more. z16 running z/OS is vastly superior but the ARS Technica article made it clear that people think the z16 is a mainframe. I want to understand the substantive real difference between a z16 and a Google server. I want to know the difference between any server and mainframe / z16. Is z16 actually a mainframe? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Me too. I learned more in the MVS Internals course I took from Amdahl than any other mainframe class. Really sharp folks. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 16:50 Tom Brennan wrote: > I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The instructors > were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so relaxed having fun > teaching. I had a great couple of weeks and learned tons. > > On 7/31/2023 1:29 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: > > And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and education in > > machine hardware I could have ever had for the short time I was there. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: They are *all* dinosaurs
Seems very fair to me. I remember Dylan Beattie quoted something similar in one of his talks, and I think he was quoting Douglas Adams. Yes, here it is:- 1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. 2. Anything that’s invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. 3. Anything invented after you’re thirty-five is against the natural order of things. — Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, 15:40 Grant Taylor, < 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On 7/31/23 9:28 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > But look at the dates and explain to me, e.g., how z is legacy but > > x86 is not, how z/OS is legacy but Unix is not, how COBOL and PL/I > > are legacy but C is not. > > Oh! That's simple. "legacy" is what existed before the "new and hot > thing" when someone was learning. > > Translation, if it existed before you entered the field, it's "old". > > I'm not saying that's correct. I'm just saying that simple liptmus test > seems to cover most old / current / new both in computers and outside of > computers. > > old - before you > current - is you > new - after you > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
I went to some Amdahl MVS internal classes around 1990. The instructors were probably previous IBMers, and just seemed so relaxed having fun teaching. I had a great couple of weeks and learned tons. On 7/31/2023 1:29 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and education in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short time I was there. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
wish I knew your email address
On 7/31/23 15:32, Grant Taylor wrote:
On 7/31/23 11:28 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
I trust that you know alternatives. Will you describe one?
As for how I'm using X11,
I'm currently typing this reply in Thunderbird (X11 client
application) running on a different Linux system than the one that I'm
using as the (X11 display) server.
I have Firefox and Lotus Notes do similar.
Though I suspect that these aren't the type of applications that would
be commonly executed in USS / OMVS.
As for the environments,
I routinely configure an interactive shell the way that I want it and
then spawn many different things from it, be it different window, or
foreground / background / suspended processes, or even things like
terminal multiplexers that allow me to completely {dis,re}connect from
things that are running.
Another thing I find useful is to pipe stdout from a command into
"less" running in a fresh xterm window, leaving my parent session
available for interactive commands. I have a script for this.
That is an interesting use case. I like it.
Though I suspect that while the new XTerm is open, the first XTerm is
busy running the command generating the output and less.
But *nix makes this easy to background things to release the terminal
for interactive use while the new terminal is showing data.
Grant. . . .
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Re: I have no knowledge
The AIU (Integrated Artificial Intelligence Accelerator Unit) is a portion of each chip in a z16, maybe about 1% of chip real estate, that contains something they call the "Matrix Compute Array" containing 128 "Processor Tiles" (whatever those are). To me, those PT's make it look more like a GPU than FPU. The AIU also contains controlling AI firmware and has direct access to the chip's cache, something a PC graphics card might have a bit of trouble doing. On 7/31/2023 12:31 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: The current implementation of AI is based on mathematical calculations. Rather than PCs using an FPU, they use graphics cards with GPU for these calculations. I'm guessing that IBM uses FPUs which can reach speeds of 5 exa-FLOPs. I have no clue how they are making the leap from computations to decision processing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Fujitsu did not "buy" Amdahl machines, Fujitsu supplied Amdahl with their machines with the MODs we (yeah, I worked for Amdahl prior to 1990) asked for/needed, and then for instructions we didn't have micro-store for, we used FAM (Fast Assist Mode) which we then emulated instructions (part of MacroCode). It was interesting, IBM had no idea that Amdahl had a new processor and was caught flat footed when we announced the 5990 machines and breaking the 100 MIP barrier. So they added another frame to the 3990s for 2 more processors to get over 100MIPS. And then they announced ESA. Some of those who were allowed to have the direct doc from IBM said they got the idea ESA really stood for Eat dung Amdahl. Bob Rogers really had a laugh at that when I told him about that discussion. At any rate, we had enough micro store we could free up that the 5995A boxes could run ESA faster than the 3090 machines. And I can't remember for sure, but I think the 5890s were able to run at the same speed as the 3090s when doing ESA. The 5890s had to emulate ESA instructions. If Amdahl management had pushed forward into CMOS earlier and stopped trying to dance with being a super UNIX system, or being a software company, or a communications company, etc. and didn't go through silly lay offs, things might have been very different today. We knew that we were going to need more RAM so 31bit wasn't going to work much longer if we wanted to run with more than 4 Domains (LPARs in IBM speak) with each of them having 1GB of RAM. To be honest I didn't see that at the time, but I came to understand later the issues for varying RAM on and off for an LPAR while working at ACS on WYLBUR. And I still think my time at Amdahl was the best job and education in machine hardware I could have ever had for the short time I was there. Steve Thompson On 7/31/2023 2:33 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl_Corporation#Fujitsu_GS21 - Fujitsu machines are 31-bit, based on the technology they got when they bought Amdahl. I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. If you google "fujitsu osiv" you'll find a lot more than you likely want to know. ObAnecdote: back in the day (mid-80s) we had a plug-compatible mainframe, a Formation 4000, on which we ran our small (~30-person) software company, VM Systems Group, including sales support systems, development, and, well, just about everything; I think when I started there was maybe one PC in the office. Our Formation was the high-end, an (approximately) 0.25MIPS attached processor machine with a whopping 4MB! It was.not fast. And had occasional fun problems, like the time that a previously unnoticed poor solder on a board somehow decided to matter after an IML (perhaps because the IML was most likely caused after the room was shut down because the A/C failed and it had gotten very hot-so maybe the solder joint flowed a bit?) and the 64K memory chips were misdetected as 16K chips. The machine was kind of unhappy that it couldn't find the other 3MB. We replaced that box with one of the first 9370s, upgrading to 0.5MIPS (though uniprocessor) and 16MB. Now that was livin' large! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Regards, Steve Thompson VS Strategies LLC Westfield IN 972-983-9430 cell -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
W dniu 31.07.2023 o 20:33, Phil Smith III pisze: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl_Corporation#Fujitsu_GS21 - Fujitsu machines are 31-bit, based on the technology they got when they bought Amdahl. I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. If you google "fujitsu osiv" you'll find a lot more than you likely want to know. Several years ago I had an opportunity to implement StorageTek tapes in mainframe (and distributed) environment. BTW, at the time it was the largest tape installation in Poland. I was hired by Sun (they bought STK), because they had no skills here. However they delivered me manuals. Project Manager with no mainframe background. So I'd got a lot of junk, including implementation manuals for Fujitsu MSP. Due to some communication issues I started reading it - regular JCL, started tasks, PARMLIB, PROCLIB, etc. There were differences in TCPIP. Finally I got proper manuals and stopped learning MSP system. ;-) BTW: There is also Hitachi MVS clone as well. AFAIK it is VOS3. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
In conversations with customers today, it’s generally z/OS running on IBM Z hardware. We could start adding in z/VM, TPF, … but z/OS, in my experience, is what industry folks mean when they say mainframe. Good luck trying to find a legal definition, too much nuance. Sometimes analysts will lump SPARC and Power hardware architectures in with AIX and Solaris and call them mainframes but those uses tend to be niche. “To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough time.” - Leonard Bernstein > On Jul 31, 2023, at 3:03 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: > > In my opinion the only difference between a z16 running z/OS and a Google > server is design philosophy and nothing more. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On 7/31/23 11:28 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
I trust that you know alternatives. Will you describe one?
As for how I'm using X11,
I'm currently typing this reply in Thunderbird (X11 client application)
running on a different Linux system than the one that I'm using as the
(X11 display) server.
I have Firefox and Lotus Notes do similar.
Though I suspect that these aren't the type of applications that would
be commonly executed in USS / OMVS.
As for the environments,
I routinely configure an interactive shell the way that I want it and
then spawn many different things from it, be it different window, or
foreground / background / suspended processes, or even things like
terminal multiplexers that allow me to completely {dis,re}connect from
things that are running.
Another thing I find useful is to pipe stdout from a command into
"less" running in a fresh xterm window, leaving my parent session
available for interactive commands. I have a script for this.
That is an interesting use case. I like it.
Though I suspect that while the new XTerm is open, the first XTerm is
busy running the command generating the output and less.
But *nix makes this easy to background things to release the terminal
for interactive use while the new terminal is showing data.
Grant. . . .
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Re: I have no knowledge
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:32:59 AM PDT, Steve Beaver > wrote: > I have absolutely no knowledge about AI other that what AI stands for. The current implementation of AI is based on mathematical calculations. Rather than PCs using an FPU, they use graphics cards with GPU for these calculations. I'm guessing that IBM uses FPUs which can reach speeds of 5 exa-FLOPs. I have no clue how they are making the leap from computations to decision processing. On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:32:59 AM PDT, Steve Beaver wrote: I have absolutely no knowledge about AI other that what AI stands for. I know there must be a hardware component like a z16 loaded with a Ton of CP's and something like python to do the work and drive the servos, I have no idea what the hardware would look like meaning the backplane And lots of CP boards. Steve -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: I have no knowledge
W dniu 31.07.2023 o 20:32, Steve Beaver pisze: I have absolutely no knowledge about AI other that what AI stands for. I know there must be a hardware component like a z16 loaded with a Ton of CP's and something like python to do the work and drive the servos, I have no idea what the hardware would look like meaning the backplane And lots of CP boards. The simplest explanation I can imagine: AI is very complex set of algorithms operating on very large sets of data. AI can be offloaded to GPU engines - this is what IBM did with POWER9. However IBM decided not to pay NVIDIA for GPUs but create their own engines and integrate it with CPU (z16 or POWER10). The advantage is it is very close to the code, so can be called with no I/O, just few cycles away. How to use it? YOU DON'T HAVE TO. BTW: How do we use ICF processors or zIIP or CPACF or sort engine or zEDC? BTW: there are three popular acronyms: AI, ML and DL. DL is subset of ML, which is subset of AI. DL - Deep Learning ML - Machine Learning AI - Artificial Intelligence. HTH -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup
fastmail? From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Brian Westerman Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 3:20 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup Hi, Peters directions for setting up the trace were very simple and easy to follow. It was discovered that I was missing a CA cert that was not called out by the host site. (which he sent me). Now I'm at a stopping place because the webhost site is requiring authentication on each email (as if it's a client), instead of using the "POP before SMTP" setting which merely requires that the email address have authenticated within 60 minutes of the attempt to send via SMTP. That setting was the default previously and when they upgraded the smtp server on their end it was changed to not use that option. They are currently "thinking" on the request to turn it back on. In the meantime, I think there are 3rd party sites that offer the use of SMTP for forwarding that I might want to give a try. Does anyone on this list use one that they can recommend? Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup
Hi, Peters directions for setting up the trace were very simple and easy to follow. It was discovered that I was missing a CA cert that was not called out by the host site. (which he sent me). Now I'm at a stopping place because the webhost site is requiring authentication on each email (as if it's a client), instead of using the "POP before SMTP" setting which merely requires that the email address have authenticated within 60 minutes of the attempt to send via SMTP. That setting was the default previously and when they upgraded the smtp server on their end it was changed to not use that option. They are currently "thinking" on the request to turn it back on. In the meantime, I think there are 3rd party sites that offer the use of SMTP for forwarding that I might want to give a try. Does anyone on this list use one that they can recommend? Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
Since you can't pick up a Linux cluster and carry it out, is it a mainframe? Each drawer in a z16 can easily be carried so it's not a mainframe? On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:29:21 AM PDT, Steve Thompson wrote: Because you *can* pick it up and carry it? On 7/31/2023 2:12 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: > Why isn't a Google server a mainframe? Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 11:26:15 AM PDT, Tom Brennan > wrote: > Maybe if you told us why you're asking, people could give better answers. In my opinion the only difference between a z16 running z/OS and a Google server is design philosophy and nothing more. z16 running z/OS is vastly superior but the ARS Technica article made it clear that people think the z16 is a mainframe. I want to understand the substantive real difference between a z16 and a Google server. I want to know the difference between any server and mainframe / z16. Is z16 actually a mainframe? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
Robert Crawford asked: >Was the 2260 keyboard the one with two, count 'em, two PF keys? .which reminds me of my favorite bit of IBM trivia: What IBM device had exactly *13* PF keys? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl_Corporation#Fujitsu_GS21 - Fujitsu machines are 31-bit, based on the technology they got when they bought Amdahl. I also STR that Fujitsu builds some of IBM's stuff, which doesn't mean anything much but is sorta interesting, maybe. If you google "fujitsu osiv" you'll find a lot more than you likely want to know. ObAnecdote: back in the day (mid-80s) we had a plug-compatible mainframe, a Formation 4000, on which we ran our small (~30-person) software company, VM Systems Group, including sales support systems, development, and, well, just about everything; I think when I started there was maybe one PC in the office. Our Formation was the high-end, an (approximately) 0.25MIPS attached processor machine with a whopping 4MB! It was.not fast. And had occasional fun problems, like the time that a previously unnoticed poor solder on a board somehow decided to matter after an IML (perhaps because the IML was most likely caused after the room was shut down because the A/C failed and it had gotten very hot-so maybe the solder joint flowed a bit?) and the 64K memory chips were misdetected as 16K chips. The machine was kind of unhappy that it couldn't find the other 3MB. We replaced that box with one of the first 9370s, upgrading to 0.5MIPS (though uniprocessor) and 16MB. Now that was livin' large! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
I have no knowledge
I have absolutely no knowledge about AI other that what AI stands for. I know there must be a hardware component like a z16 loaded with a Ton of CP's and something like python to do the work and drive the servos, I have no idea what the hardware would look like meaning the backplane And lots of CP boards. Steve -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
Because you *can* pick it up and carry it? On 7/31/2023 2:12 PM, Jon Perryman wrote: Why isn't a Google server a mainframe? Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
Maybe if you told us why you're asking, people could give better answers. On 7/31/2023 11:12 AM, Jon Perryman wrote: > On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 03:41:35 AM PDT, P H <04843e86df79-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: IBM's definition of mainframe (Source: DICTIONARY OF IBM & COMPUTING TERMINOLOGY) mainframe n. A computer, usually in a computer center, with extensive capabilities and resources to which other computers may be connected so that they can share facilities. Originally referred to the central processing unit of a large computer, which occupied the largest or central frame (rack). Using IBM's definition, every server computer at every company is a mainframe. The all have the same capabilities as a z16. Other computers connect to these servers to share facilities. All modern servers have extensive capabilities. A z16 has 16 CPUs (Central Processing Units) versus the same sized AMD Ryzen with 4 CPUs. A z16 has 4 frames that is mostly occupied by the 1,536 PCIe+ slots. Why are Googles 5,500,000 In case of IBM z, a single component doesn't make it a mainframe. What makes a z16 a mainframe but a Google server is not a mainframe? It's the whole system i.e. microprocessor, cache, memory, I/O Subsystem, PR/SM, microcode/firmware, instruction set , RAS, Security etc etc etc. Everything you mention is design philosophy. As a whole, a Google server has everything you mention. Granted that IBM is 21st century design but you can't name 1 missing feature. Even PR/SM is available thru products like VMWare. I suggest, comparison of individual components of IBM z with individual components of other technologies is not valid. I agree that an individual component will identify a mainframe. My point is that a mainframe must have at least 1 thing (hardware or software) that is different from Google's servers. The difference between IBM and Google is design philosophy. For instance, you mention RAS but ignore that Google's RAS (data replication, clustering, ...) is a philosophical difference to IBM (hardware & software). Why isn't a Google server a mainframe? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Google has 5,500,000 mainframes WAS: Definition of mainframe?
> On Monday, July 31, 2023 at 03:41:35 AM PDT, P H > <04843e86df79-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > IBM's definition of mainframe (Source: DICTIONARY OF IBM & COMPUTING > TERMINOLOGY) > mainframe n. A computer, usually in a computer center, with extensive > capabilities and > resources to which other computers may be connected so that they can share > facilities. > Originally referred to the central processing unit of a large computer, which > occupied the largest or central frame (rack). Using IBM's definition, every server computer at every company is a mainframe. The all have the same capabilities as a z16. Other computers connect to these servers to share facilities. All modern servers have extensive capabilities. A z16 has 16 CPUs (Central Processing Units) versus the same sized AMD Ryzen with 4 CPUs. A z16 has 4 frames that is mostly occupied by the 1,536 PCIe+ slots. Why are Googles 5,500,000 > In case of IBM z, a single component doesn't make it a mainframe. What makes a z16 a mainframe but a Google server is not a mainframe? > It's the whole system i.e. microprocessor, cache, memory, I/O Subsystem, > PR/SM, > microcode/firmware, instruction set , RAS, Security etc etc etc. Everything you mention is design philosophy. As a whole, a Google server has everything you mention. Granted that IBM is 21st century design but you can't name 1 missing feature. Even PR/SM is available thru products like VMWare. > I suggest, comparison of individual components of IBM z > with individual components of other technologies is not valid. I agree that an individual component will identify a mainframe. My point is that a mainframe must have at least 1 thing (hardware or software) that is different from Google's servers. The difference between IBM and Google is design philosophy. For instance, you mention RAS but ignore that Google's RAS (data replication, clustering, ...) is a philosophical difference to IBM (hardware & software). Why isn't a Google server a mainframe? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
A volume is a convenient picture - they no longer exist on modern DASD. Data is spread across many different PC sized disks. We have extended volumes which are bigger than traditional volumes. It gives more space for the same number of volumes. A "track" is mapped to one PC sized disk, and block on disk.. If you rewrite a track it will most probably go to a different PC disk. In the storage controller there is a big array which has VOLID.CYL.Track -> pcdisk.position. I can "copy a dataset" on the same DASD subsystem just by copying the relevant bits of this array. So if we have part of dataset1 USER00.00.01 -> PCDISK1. 4000 the copy creates USER99.4002.12 -> PCDISK1.4000. This copy takes a second or so. There is no data transfer. If you update dataset1, then its VOLID.CYL.track will point to a new block, and so the arrays diverge. If we copy the dataset to a different DASD subsystem - then every block will be read - and written to the other subsystem. Some of the above is not true - but it gives the picture. Colin On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 at 16:46, Grant Taylor < 023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On 7/31/23 6:37 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: > > It's not just CPU power or number of cores, but the ability to connect > > thousands of volumes of data and access them simultaneously, and move > > that data from point A to point B efficiently. > > Please elaborate, are those volumes separate DASD devices or are they > possibly some logical component thereon? > > I also wonder how common it is to have four digits of volumes (physical > or logical) varied on at the same time. > > I wonder this about both mainframes and some of the largest Open Systems > that I've been exposed to. > > Hundreds absolutely happens. I don't know about a thousand or more. > > Also, what constitutes a volume? How different are FCP and FC LUNs? > How different are they when the same back end storage system is > exporting LUNs to both mainframe and Open Systems, with the primary > difference being FCP vs traditional FC? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On 7/31/23 10:54, Paul Gilmartin wrote: On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:08:34 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: ... On MVS (USS), I remember using 'xterm', which is the X11 app I use most. Lately, I'm more likely to run 'xterm' on some other platform and then SSH-in to USS. Works. A benefit of xterm on MVS (any system, in fact) is the ability to launch a child job with the same environment tediously built by the parent. BINGO -- R; <>< -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
IEC070I XXXXXXX,...
I searched the doc and this list, but can't find any explanation. Does anyone know why the rc(sfi) section would be 'XXX'ed out in these msgs? IEC070I XXX,PRDXXWS5,TS56PRDXXWS5,XMLOG,7499,RPXM10, IEC070I PCRES.PRODV.PXW5.XMLOG,PCRES.PRODV.PXW5.XMLOG.DATA, IEC070I CATALOG.USER7 We have QuickRef and it knows the rc is 209, but why doesn't it display in JESMSGLG for my CICS region? I'm sure I am missing something obvious, but I can't find it. Thx for any reply. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:08:34 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: >... >On MVS (USS), I remember using 'xterm', which is the X11 app I use most. >Lately, I'm more likely to run 'xterm' on some other platform and then >SSH-in to USS. Works. On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:39:37 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote: >On 7/31/23 9:54 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote: >> A benefit of xterm on MVS (any system, in fact) is the ability to >> launch a child job with the same environment tediously built by >> the parent. >... >I don't see how this is limited to XTerm nor MVS. I'd expect this to >apply to many things. > I trust that you know alternatives. Will you describe one? Another thing I find useful is to pipe stdout from a command into "less" running in a fresh xterm window, leaving my parent session available for interactive commands. I have a script for this. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:54:28 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote: >> Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't >> frequent the right web sites)? >I suspect it's /where/ we are talking. This list, IBM territory reddit.com/r/mainframe/ does occasionally get some Unisys discussion. Only mention of Fujitsu I found was just about a storage device, though. ¬R -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
On 7/31/23 10:40 AM, Steve Thompson wrote: I just have to throw this in here. IBM is not the only maker of Mainframes. Nicely done. :-) I understand that Fujitsu still makes mainframes. That's my understanding too. Does UNISYS still make mainframes? My understanding is that UNISYS is now primarily service on very large x86(_64) based systems. I think they were one of the companies that made x86 systems in the late '90s / early '00s that were massively multi-CPU systems. as in they (and the likes) are the reason Windows NT / 2000 support up to 32 CPUs. How about Honeywell Bull? I don't remember seeing anything about Honeywell computers in a LONG time. Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't frequent the right web sites)? I suspect it's /where/ we are talking. This list, IBM territory (if I can use such a loose comparison), geographic region, business region, etc. Aren't Fujitsu much bigger in the Asia Pacific market? Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 7/31/23 9:28 AM, Schmitt, Michael wrote: MAINFRAME: a computer that is larger than a midrange minicomputer and smaller than a supercomputer. Chuckle. pc < workstation < minicomputer < mainframe < supercomputer I posit that we should word smith to be "single computer" to rule out large Google sized clusters of thousands of computers. But if we rule out "single computer" how does that effect sysplex / CF? If we say that sysplex / CF is a single computer, does that mean that we also include NUMA servers from the '90s which appeared to run a single system image? Definitions get tricky and require discussion back and forth to arrive at a common definition accepted for the conversation at hand. More seriously, http://catb.org/jargon/html/M/mainframe.html refers to http://catb.org/jargon/html/D/dinosaur.html, which is defined as "Any hardware requiring raised flooring and special power." LOL That tends to put mains and supers in the same category. At least most of them. It might have included some mini's in the days of yore. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 7/31/23 6:37 AM, Jay Maynard wrote: It's not just CPU power or number of cores, but the ability to connect thousands of volumes of data and access them simultaneously, and move that data from point A to point B efficiently. Please elaborate, are those volumes separate DASD devices or are they possibly some logical component thereon? I also wonder how common it is to have four digits of volumes (physical or logical) varied on at the same time. I wonder this about both mainframes and some of the largest Open Systems that I've been exposed to. Hundreds absolutely happens. I don't know about a thousand or more. Also, what constitutes a volume? How different are FCP and FC LUNs? How different are they when the same back end storage system is exporting LUNs to both mainframe and Open Systems, with the primary difference being FCP vs traditional FC? -- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Mainframe Makers.... WAS: Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
I just have to throw this in here. IBM is not the only maker of Mainframes. I understand that Fujitsu still makes mainframes. Does UNISYS still make mainframes? How about Honeywell Bull? Why don't we see these systems being discussed (or maybe I just don't frequent the right web sites)? Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On 7/31/23 9:54 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote: A benefit of xterm on MVS (any system, in fact) is the ability to launch a child job with the same environment tediously built by the parent. I wouldn't think that would be limited to XTerm nor MVS. My understanding is that once the current / active / running environment is configured, then anything started therefrom should inherit said environment. Sort of like a tree wherein anything after the current point inherits the current point's configuration. Going backwards to the thing that started the current environment may very well yield a different configuration. I don't see how this is limited to XTerm nor MVS. I'd expect this to apply to many things. -- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PCOMM alternate screen size
W dniu 31.07.2023 o 17:13, Dana Mitchell pisze: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:17:13 -0400, Thomas Conley wrote: On 6/28/2012 7:55 PM, Bob Rutledge wrote: Thomas Conley wrote: I'm being forced to use PCOMM, and I can't figure out how to set the alternate screen size. any help you can give would be appreciated. Hie thee to the archives and search for TD102151 in the subject line. Bob I now find myself needing to use PCOMM 14.0 instead of VIsta. I'd like to set a custom screen size other than the larger value available in the communicaitons properties of 62x160. I'd prefer to have something more like 50x135. But my session.ws file doesn't contain the screensize= parameter and it doesn't work if I add the updates as mentioned in techdoc TD102151. Is there a newer version of this techdoc available or instructions somewhere to set custom screensizes in newer versions of PCOMM? AFAIK PCOMM does not record default values in the WS file. Worse: *there is no documentation available*. Yes, there is no documentation explaining all (at least most) .WS file keywords. Hint: in case of screensize or any other setting simply try to create test file with non-standard settings. You will find the difference. Fortunately most of the keyword names are self-explanatory. HTH -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PCOMM alternate screen size
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 15:18:50 +, Sri h Kolusu wrote: >>>. I'd prefer to have something more like 50x135. But my session.ws file >>>doesn't contain the screensize= parameter > >Dana, > >You need to code the screensize parameter under 3270. So, edit the .WS file >with any text editing software and add the following. > >[3270] >QueryReplyMode=Auto >HostCodePage=1047-U >Screensize=50x135 > > >Save it and then launch the pcomm session. > >Thanks, >Kolusu > Thanks Sri, that worked. I thought I tried that, but I may have not had the order of statements exactly like this, in case order matters... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Automount (was USS Features)
Regarding automount feature: IMHO it is less than useless. - It require some effort to establish and manage (including storage adm.) - It wastes space, because even smallest empty home directory occupies first extent of the ZFS/HFS. - Space (extents) taken by some large files and then deleted is still occupied by the user. - Tools like find may omit currently unmounted directories, sometimes making the search ineffective. - I vaguely remember the z/OS Unix does not like excessive filesystems being mounted. - Automount/demount consume some resources. - Last, but not least: I observed the are more active TSO users than USS users. The same apply to CICS, etc. Sometimes one may enter TSO OMVS just out of curiosity. In case of automount yet another filesystem is created. From the other hand one can create common filesystems for all home directories. When needed it can be divided among multiple filesystems. Users with large needs may have dedicated filesystems. Empty user directory does not consume resources. Even "touched". My €0.02 -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 31.07.2023 o 17:08, Paul Gilmartin pisze: On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 09:43:38 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/31/23 8:06 AM, Rick Troth wrote: per-user automount does not necessarily waste space IMHO automount is completely independent of shared / separate per user disk space. The thing which is mounted might be a sub-directory of a shared space. Agreed. Wasn't true in the Bad Old Days, when the only thing that could be mounted was an entire HFS content (or an NFS [sub]directory.) And I was dismayed that the MVS mount maps needed to differ between MVS NFS server and client. Solaris was smarter: mount on the server would look at the map, say, "Oh! That's me!" and mount the directory as local. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PCOMM alternate screen size
Check what gets updated when you change the screen size to one of the other listed values. It must be saving it somewhere, either in a config file or in the registry. And there's only so many places that PCOMM stores configuration files. When you find what's updated, note how it stores this setting. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Dana Mitchell Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 10:13 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: PCOMM alternate screen size On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:17:13 -0400, Thomas Conley wrote: >On 6/28/2012 7:55 PM, Bob Rutledge wrote: >> Thomas Conley wrote: >>> I'm being forced to use PCOMM, and I can't figure out how to set the >>> alternate screen size. any help you can give would be appreciated. >> >> Hie thee to the archives and search for TD102151 in the subject line. >> >> Bob >> I now find myself needing to use PCOMM 14.0 instead of VIsta. I'd like to set a custom screen size other than the larger value available in the communicaitons properties of 62x160. I'd prefer to have something more like 50x135. But my session.ws file doesn't contain the screensize= parameter and it doesn't work if I add the updates as mentioned in techdoc TD102151. Is there a newer version of this techdoc available or instructions somewhere to set custom screensizes in newer versions of PCOMM? Dana -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PCOMM alternate screen size
>>. I'd prefer to have something more like 50x135. But my session.ws file >>doesn't contain the screensize= parameter Dana, You need to code the screensize parameter under 3270. So, edit the .WS file with any text editing software and add the following. [3270] QueryReplyMode=Auto HostCodePage=1047-U Screensize=50x135 Save it and then launch the pcomm session. Thanks, Kolusu -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
PCOMM alternate screen size
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:17:13 -0400, Thomas Conley wrote: >On 6/28/2012 7:55 PM, Bob Rutledge wrote: >> Thomas Conley wrote: >>> I'm being forced to use PCOMM, and I can't figure out how to set the >>> alternate screen size. any help you can give would be appreciated. >> >> Hie thee to the archives and search for TD102151 in the subject line. >> >> Bob >> I now find myself needing to use PCOMM 14.0 instead of VIsta. I'd like to set a custom screen size other than the larger value available in the communicaitons properties of 62x160. I'd prefer to have something more like 50x135. But my session.ws file doesn't contain the screensize= parameter and it doesn't work if I add the updates as mentioned in techdoc TD102151. Is there a newer version of this techdoc available or instructions somewhere to set custom screensizes in newer versions of PCOMM? Dana -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: USS Features
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 09:43:38 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote: >On 7/31/23 8:06 AM, Rick Troth wrote: >> per-user automount does not necessarily waste space > >IMHO automount is completely independent of shared / separate per user >disk space. > >> The thing which is mounted might be a sub-directory of a shared space. > >Agreed. > Wasn't true in the Bad Old Days, when the only thing that could be mounted was an entire HFS content (or an NFS [sub]directory.) And I was dismayed that the MVS mount maps needed to differ between MVS NFS server and client. Solaris was smarter: mount on the server would look at the map, say, "Oh! That's me!" and mount the directory as local. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 10:08:34 -0400, Rick Troth wrote: >... >On MVS (USS), I remember using 'xterm', which is the X11 app I use most. >Lately, I'm more likely to run 'xterm' on some other platform and then >SSH-in to USS. Works. > A benefit of xterm on MVS (any system, in fact) is the ability to launch a child job with the same environment tediously built by the parent. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: USS Features
On 7/31/23 8:06 AM, Rick Troth wrote: per-user automount does not necessarily waste space IMHO automount is completely independent of shared / separate per user disk space. The thing which is mounted might be a sub-directory of a shared space. Agreed. Also, automount is not exclusively for user home directories. It's great for selected program products. ABSOLUTELY agreed. I've got nearly half a dozen auto-mounts on a number of systems, only one of which is the home directory. I've even got automount managing /boot on Linux. It doesn't need to be mounted all the time. If it's not mounted, it's a lot more difficult to get corrupted. N.B. automount doesn't protect against file access / deletion / modification as automounts design goal is to mount the necessary file system to enable said A/D/M. Much like RAID is not a backup. --- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: They are *all* dinosaurs
On 7/31/23 9:28 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: But look at the dates and explain to me, e.g., how z is legacy but x86 is not, how z/OS is legacy but Unix is not, how COBOL and PL/I are legacy but C is not. Oh! That's simple. "legacy" is what existed before the "new and hot thing" when someone was learning. Translation, if it existed before you entered the field, it's "old". I'm not saying that's correct. I'm just saying that simple liptmus test seems to cover most old / current / new both in computers and outside of computers. old - before you current - is you new - after you -- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
The 2260 had no function keys. The 3270 was available with half a dozen keyboard arrangements, with no, five or 12 function keys. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Crawford Robert C (Contractor) [04e08f385650-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 9:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives 480 characters? Sounds like Twitter. Was the 2260 keyboard the one with two, count 'em, two PF keys? Robert Crawford Abstract Evolutions LLC (210) 913-3822 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of billogden Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 11:16 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives >From:Seymour J Metz >Yep, "Model 1 displays 480 characters (12 rows of 40 characters)." >Did you have keyboard issues? My memory of those ancient history days (early 70s) simply fails too much. I seem to remember "something" simple we did with the keyboard, but the details have vanished. (And I am probably confusing it with the 2260 keyboards from a few years earlier!) Bill Ogden -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
They are *all* dinosaurs
The media sling around terms like dinosaur and legacy for mainframes and mainframe software, and tout "new" languages and platforms like C, Unix and windows. But look at the dates and explain to me, e.g., how z is legacy but x86 is not, how z/OS is legacy but Unix is not, how COBOL and PL/I are legacy but C is not. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
MAINFRAME: a computer that is larger than a midrange minicomputer and smaller than a supercomputer. More seriously, http://catb.org/jargon/html/M/mainframe.html refers to http://catb.org/jargon/html/D/dinosaur.html, which is defined as "Any hardware requiring raised flooring and special power." -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Jon Perryman Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 11:28 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/. The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition of MAINFRAME? 1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 64 cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). The largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD Ryzen CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC CPU (AMD uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) has a slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% extra user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD Ryzen would need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU. 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more. Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was enough customer demand. 3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux. 4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS. ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software. ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the philosophy that makes a mainframe. Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in the Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the lack of design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are the same product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and large databases but it requires knowledge of big data solutions, Linux clustering solutions and more. Add a computer to the cluster and you must replicate the master disk. Take a computer offline from the cluster, then it must re-sync or replicate the master disk. DB2 on z/OS does not experience these problems because of z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g. databases, SQL, HTML, Cloud and more). Brilliant feature design exposes very little. For instance, does anyone know the problems solved by z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. Linux people on the other hand can easily name those problems solved if you mention clustering solutions and big data solutions. I've personally seen one sysplex split between 2 sites 40 KM apart using line of site satellite dishes for communication, yet z/OS app programmers were informed. In other words, IBM designs for the 21st century. ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant unnoticed Linux feature. Name several brilliant unnoticed z/OS features. The story claims Linux feature design is similar to z/OS feature design. For example, the story claims Unix filesystems provide the same functionality as z/OS datasets. A filesystem is the equivalent of one PDS/e (even in Linux). In fact, z/OS Unix filesystems were built from PDS/e functionality. A filesystem is a container file containing the files in a Unix filesystem. You may have a filesystem using 10 disks but that's not any different than a single z/OS PDS/e file with 10 full disk extents. Like PDS/e membe
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 7/31/23 09:09, Dave Jones wrote: Opps.I was wrong. According to this site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN_httpd), the first web server at CERN was indeed written and hosted on a NeXT Computer running NeXTSTEP. I must have dreamed the part about VM, then. Thanks for clarifying. I also recall CERN running a web server on VM at that time. I know that they had a major VM installation. (And mainframes counted as supercomputers in those days, which would have been very relevant to CERN.) DJ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- R; <>< -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
On 7/30/23 18:50, Andrew Rowley wrote: On 30/07/2023 2:28 am, Jon Perryman wrote: ASK YOURSELF: Name the z/OS Unix feature that sort of fixes the fundamental design flaw with Unix filesystems just described? I suspect most people won't think about each user having a unique filesystem using automount to make their filesystem available. Typical Unix uses one file system with all users having directories in the /user directory. An automounted filesystem per user has always been a terrible idea. I think it was given as an example of how you could use automount and somehow morphed into a recommendation. (Other OSes can e.g. use automount to mount a remote user filesystem via NFS). I responded to this in a thread fork. The points Andrew makes are sound, but there's context where per-user automount is a GOOD idea. Reasons it's a bad idea: 1) Freespace in the filesystem is not shared between users. This means that you need much more space than if there was one pool of freespace shared between all. (repeating) if the thing mounted is a sub-dir of a shared space, this argument is void. 2) It makes simple questions like e.g. "Which users have a .ssh/authorized_keys file?" much harder to answer. Certainly. But it also means that ~.ssh/authorized_keys follows the user, which is beneficial. A filesystem per user is basically equivalent to a SMS storage group and catalog per user. You get isolation between users, but at the expense of much more difficult management. But, again, an automount per user does not necessarily mean a filesystem per user. -- R; <>< -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: bitmapped displays [was: Definition of mainframe?]
On 7/31/23 00:33, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/29/23 5:47 PM, Rick Troth wrote: Xwindows is used by Linux because it had been developed widely and was common on Unix when Linux came into popular view. Xwindows itself is an excellent development. Sadly, Xwindows is way to "chatty" and has other issues. I'm curious to know what you're thinking if you'd be willing to elaborate. The whole Athena project at MIT "back in the day" was rigorously planned out with cross-platform requirements in mind. It's old, but if we're going to diss things because they're old then we'll devolve into a flame war about COBOL. Kerberos was born there too. (Less of a fan, but it has its place, and notice that Microsoft has fully bought in there.) X11 not only ran on VMS workstations but could even use DECNET for transport as an alternative to TCP. (I'd be surprised to encounter DECNET support in contemporary X11.) Stuff like that indicates that the X11 developers took pains to build a generalized API which in turn allowed it to run on more systems. (But the reactions against it from the security community are WAY out of line, MUCH to aggressive. Xwindows is not and evil back door for the hackers. But I digress.) X11 is not good. I don't know how /bad/ it is. I think the biggest thing is that most people don't think about it at all. As such it has a way of biting many people. I hear a great number of people complaining. But in my experience X is #1 complicated (likely because of the Stone Age when it was developed) and #2 "heavy" or as I like to say "chatty". Saying "X11 is not good" out of hand is a weak argument (but is sadly effective in public forums like this one). If most people don't think about it, that's a GOOD thing. "It's just there", so make use of it. X11 has a couple of authentication methods, per IP and MIT Magic Cookie. Per IP is problematic when you have multiple users on either IP. MIT Magic Cookie tends to help this and make t hings more per user. But I don't think as many people use MIT Magic Cookie as should. Almost all of the tutorials I've seen online still do things per IP or simply open up X11 to the any IP that can connect to it. Despite the authentication issue, X11 makes it too easy for a client that can access the X11 display server to copy the screen to a file, manipulate the clipboard, capture keys, read / mess with the mouse, and various other surprising things. Wearing my CISSP hat: then don't let untrustworthy clients access the X11 display. There is value in minimal rules. Ultimately *all* controls boil down to binary go/no-go. Always. But too many "what ifs" often make it harder for legitimate people (and programs) to do what they need to do. Now if Wayland can address the all-or-nothing access, great! But I'm seriously worried that Wayland will throw out some babies with the nasty old dirty bath water. (And that water really is gross, I agree.) But *something* must have access/control over the whole raster. The design of X11 leaves much of it open to all comers. I see this, I recognize the risks, but I don't damn it outright. (And I admit to being contrarian in the security world.) We protect the wrong things. One great thing about X11 is the ability to launch a single application *without* a window manager or session manager. You can, for example, bring up Xvnc as the one and only client. The local screen/display then appears to be the remote canvas. I did this regularly using VMware back when I ran VMware on my Linux PC. Worked a charm. I use X11 heavily and I *only* use it over trusted channels and with trusted clients. Forgive me for ignorance about the details of the built-in authentication methods: I don't use them. I do my best to tie-off the ends and then tell X auth to get out of the way. He doesn't always listen. Oh well. You're right: z/OS already does Xwindows. Mac doesn't use Xwindows, but its fore-runner NeXT did X just fine. (personal experience) macOS doesn't use X11 /by/ /default/. But my understanding is that there are many ways to add X11 on top of -- what I think is called - Coco (?) -- thereby making it behave similar to Linux (et al.) and Windows with an X11 display server. Yes. There are may ways to add X11 on top of MacOS, also on top of MS Windows. I use CYGWIN/X on MS Windows. That's a basic requirement in my MO. (Though it's true, that exposes me to untrustworthy clients by nature of MS Windows itself. Let's not get started.) MS Windows doesn't do X, but there are numerous utilities bridging the gap. (Personally I go for CYGWIN/X when corp IT doesn't get in the way. Works great!) I rarely use X based apps on MVS, but I've used them occasionally for more than two decades. (Even used X from CMS. Tell the ARS Technica guy *that*, will ya?) I'm curious what X11 based applications you ran as clients on MVS / CMS. Several X11 apps were re-compiled for CMS "b
Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives
480 characters? Sounds like Twitter. Was the 2260 keyboard the one with two, count 'em, two PF keys? Robert Crawford Abstract Evolutions LLC (210) 913-3822 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of billogden Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 11:16 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXT] Ars Technica: The IBM mainframe: How it runs and why it survives >From:Seymour J Metz >Yep, "Model 1 displays 480 characters (12 rows of 40 characters)." >Did you have keyboard issues? My memory of those ancient history days (early 70s) simply fails too much. I seem to remember "something" simple we did with the keyboard, but the details have vanished. (And I am probably confusing it with the 2260 keyboards from a few years earlier!) Bill Ogden -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Additional IBM Physical Tape Option: TS7700+TS4300
And this is first IBM-branded use of "non-mainframe" tape drives.
I mean LTO.
Yes, it is on back-end, not native (native - we discussed it many times).
However VTS is present for 20+ years, as well as LTO. And for the years
the only supported tape at backend was Jaguar or previously MAGSTAR family.
During the years there were few vendors who supplied kind of VTS with
"non-mainframe" tape drives. Even "any drives".
Nowadays we have at least two.
Why I'm writing this? Because LTO is *cheaper* than Jaguar. At least
smaller shops would want cheaper solution.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
W dniu 28.07.2023 o 08:32, Timothy Sipples pisze:
Given past discussions I should've mentioned this information a while ago, when
it was announced in September, 2022. Better now than never! :-)
IBM offers an additional physical tape storage option for z/OS (and other
operating systems). It's available with this combination of equipment:
1. IBM TS7700 with Feature Code 5995 ("zTape Air-Gap"), available with Release
5.3 or higher, plus a couple other ordering/configuration details. The 3948-CSB and
3948-CFC models support this configuration.
2. IBM TS4300 with your choice of 1, 2, or 3 LTO tape drives. (Currently LTO8.)
This equipment is rack mountable and requires a total of 21U of rack space, or
exactly 50% of a standard size rack. You would still have plenty of rack space
available in the same frame for an IBM DS8910F (16U) flash storage system. Or
even a rack mount IBM z16 or LinuxONE Rockhopper 4 server (in its 18U
configuration).
The IBM TS7700 with IBM TS4500 Tape Attach configuration is still available (of
course!) if you'd like a much larger, much more capacious physical tape
configuration.
—
Timothy Sipples
Senior Architect
Digital Assets, Industry Solutions, and Cybersecurity
IBM zSystems/LinuxONE, Asia-Pacific
sipp...@sg.ibm.com
--
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Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
Opps.I was wrong. According to this site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN_httpd), the first web server at CERN was indeed written and hosted on a NeXT Computer running NeXTSTEP. I must have dreamed the part about VM, then. DJ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: USS Features
per-user automount does not necessarily waste space The thing which is mounted might be a sub-directory of a shared space. Also, automount is not exclusively for user home directories. It's great for selected program products. -- R; <>< On 7/30/23 23:46, Grant Taylor wrote: On 7/30/23 10:23 PM, Andrew Rowley wrote: A low end laptop has 250GB available. How much space should a z/OS user be able to use (to do their job) before they have to make a special request to the storage management group? 10GB? 100GB? Please forgive the ignorant question, but does z/OS support quota in any way other than a hard file system limit? Some of my testing runs to (temporarily) 100GB+ for input and output files. I run it on the PC because the space isn't available on the mainframe, but It would be nice to be able to run it on z/OS. If you get a few users with usage spikes to 100GB the space might not be so trivial. I've seen a few quota systems capable of allowing users to go above a soft limit for an amount of time while still being bounded by an absolute hard limit. This soft limit allows users to burst for temporary things, usually for single digit number of hours or days. Once the user exceeds the time, their soft quota kicks in and behaves as if it's the hard limit. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup
Classification: Confidential Have you updated the TCP/IP policy agent accordingly? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Brian Westerman Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 9:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: AT-TLS and CSSMTP setup [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] I get BPXF024I (TCPIP) Jul 30 01:12:45 TTLS[16777256]: 18:12:45 TCPIP 639 EZD1286I TTLS Error GRPID: 0007 ENVID: 0009 CONNID: 009B LOCAL: 192.168.1.66..1122 REMOTE: 99.198.97.250..587 JOBNAME: CSSMTP USERID: CSSMTP RULE: CSSMTP RC:8 Initial Handshake 00 00 005187621CF0 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Chaining format 9 and format 3 DSCBs in EAV VTOC
Been there done that, got the t-shirt. Me to ops manager "we need to IPL ASAP due to CA-ACF2 CSA storage creep, CSA will run out very soon". Ops manager to me "no way we are going to IPL in the middle of the day". I told him do not call me when the system goes down tonight in the middle of batch!. About 23:00 that night I get called from operations, the system just went down. The shop ran IDMS, and an UPDATE batch job that ran CV, had been running for 3+ hours. I told them to call the ops manager. He told operations to IPL, and it took 3+ hours for IDMS to back out the updates from the batch job. Plus, they had to run the job again. Online IDMS was several hours late coming up the next day. What did the ops manager save... time, face, his rear-end??? Sent with Proton Mail secure email. --- Original Message --- On Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 7:33 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka <0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Fortunately nowadays the reorg is possible without maintenance window. > BTW: I had similar situations and I learnt to reply "You may not allow > me to stop production, but it WILL stop, despite on you decision, and > your manager decision... However it likely will happen during peak > hours, not at night.". > > > -- > Radoslaw Skorupka > Lodz, Poland > > > > > > W dniu 28.07.2023 o 22:48, Mike Schwab pisze: > > > YEP. management did not want to reorg a DB2 dataset with 100 extents. Did > > a batch update that failed when the 123rd extent filled. No more updates > > until reorg was completed, about 1995. > > > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 12:08 Wendell Lovewell < > > 01e9c0ee0673-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > > > Thank you for the confirmation Radoslaw. Whatever I tried with either > > > VSAM or PDSe, I could not get more than 123 extents on a volume. But I > > > also never found the right document to describe the 123-extent limit. > > > > > > SO, I guess there wouldn't be a reason for multiple format-9 records for > > > the same file. 10 DS9F3 slots can point to 130 extents. > > > > > > Thanks to you and Bill for your help! > > > > > > Wendell > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
To me, mainframe denotes one large computer that is expandable to handle volumes of tasks and data that require hundreds if not thousands of PC-class systems to handle, with an emphasis on reliability, availability, and serviceability. It's not just CPU power or number of cores, but the ability to connect thousands of volumes of data and access them simultaneously, and move that data from point A to point B efficiently. It's also a mindset: instead of "just reboot it", RAS demands an effort be made to find the cause of every problem and fix it. Yes, it needs specialized skills and tools, but then so does that datacenter that PC types say "oh, just slide another rack row of blade servers in" about. There are jobs mainframes do well, and that's why there are still so many in service. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:41 AM P H < 04843e86df79-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > IBM's definition of mainframe (Source: DICTIONARY OF IBM & COMPUTING > TERMINOLOGY) > > mainframe n. A computer, usually in a computer center, with extensive > capabilities and > resources to which other computers may be connected so that they can share > facilities. > Originally referred to the central processing unit of a large computer, > which occupied the largest or central frame (rack). > > In case of IBM z, a single component doesn't doesn't make it a mainframe. > It's the whole system i.e. microprocessor, cache, memory, I/O Subsystem, > PR/SM, microcode/firmware, instruction set , RAS, Security etc etc etc. > > I suggest, comparison of individual components of IBM z with individual > components of other technologies is not valid. > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf > of Jon Perryman > Sent: 29 July 2023 17:28 > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica > > Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article > is complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing > to do with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong? > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/ > . > > The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. > Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I > suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but > I suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the > definition of MAINFRAME? > > 1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of > the 64 cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 > cores). The largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same > as 4 AMD Ryzen CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both > are CISC CPU (AMD uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM > Telum (5.2Ghz) has a slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is > offset by the 25% extra user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU > and the same AMD Ryzen would need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU. > > 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are > also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other > hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have > 1,600 PCIe slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and > more. Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if > there was enough customer demand. > > 3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it > mainframe Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of > every z16 hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to > build the Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in > Linux. > > 4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for > z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can > still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS. > > ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference > between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software. > > ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the > philosophy that makes a mainframe. > > Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in > the Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the > lack of design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are > the same product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people > tell you they provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic > capabilities of z/OS design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and > large databases but it requires knowledge of big data solutions, Linux > clustering solutions and more. Add a computer to the cluster and you must > replicate the master disk. Take a computer offline from the cluster, then > it must re-sync or replicate the ma
Re: Chaining format 9 and format 3 DSCBs in EAV VTOC
Fortunately nowadays the reorg is possible without maintenance window. BTW: I had similar situations and I learnt to reply "You may not allow me to stop production, but it WILL stop, despite on you decision, and your manager decision... However it likely will happen during peak hours, not at night.". -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 28.07.2023 o 22:48, Mike Schwab pisze: YEP. management did not want to reorg a DB2 dataset with 100 extents. Did a batch update that failed when the 123rd extent filled. No more updates until reorg was completed, about 1995. On Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 12:08 Wendell Lovewell < 01e9c0ee0673-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Thank you for the confirmation Radoslaw. Whatever I tried with either VSAM or PDSe, I could not get more than 123 extents on a volume. But I also never found the right document to describe the 123-extent limit. SO, I guess there wouldn't be a reason for multiple format-9 records for the same file. 10 DS9F3 slots can point to 130 extents. Thanks to you and Bill for your help! Wendell -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica
IBM's definition of mainframe (Source: DICTIONARY OF IBM & COMPUTING TERMINOLOGY) mainframe n. A computer, usually in a computer center, with extensive capabilities and resources to which other computers may be connected so that they can share facilities. Originally referred to the central processing unit of a large computer, which occupied the largest or central frame (rack). In case of IBM z, a single component doesn't doesn't make it a mainframe. It's the whole system i.e. microprocessor, cache, memory, I/O Subsystem, PR/SM, microcode/firmware, instruction set , RAS, Security etc etc etc. I suggest, comparison of individual components of IBM z with individual components of other technologies is not valid. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jon Perryman Sent: 29 July 2023 17:28 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Definition of mainframe? Was: Ars Technica Can anyone provide the definition of MAINFRAME? The ARS Technica article is complete nonsense because the mainframe is a state of mind and nothing to do with reality. Can anyone prove me wrong? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/the-ibm-mainframe-how-it-runs-and-why-it-survives/. The IBM z16 is just 4 motherboards containing 16 CPU and many PCIe slots. Linux will run on an IBM z16. Is a PC also mainframe? Forget zPDT because I suspect it still uses a PCIe zCPU card. I can't say with any certainty, but I suspect that z/OS will run on a PC by using Hercules. What is the definition of MAINFRAME? 1. CPU does not make a mainframe: The smallest IBM z16 (39 user cores of the 64 cores) is the same as an AMD Ryzen 4.2Ghz CPU (64 user cores of 64 cores). The largest IBM z16 (200 user cores of the 256 cores) is the same as 4 AMD Ryzen CPU on 1 motherboard (256 user cores of the 256 cores). Both are CISC CPU (AMD uses X86 instructions versus IBM z instructions). IBM Telum (5.2Ghz) has a slightly faster clock than AMD Ryzen (4.2Ghz) but is offset by the 25% extra user cores. IBM z16 has 4 motherboards for 16 CPU and the same AMD Ryzen would need 1 motherboard for 4 CPU. 2. Hardware does not make a mainframe. IBM z16 has PCIe and ram which are also on every modern motherboard. IBM z16 chooses not to include other hardware (e.g. SATA, IDE, WIFI and more). Motherboards choose not to have 1,600 PCIe slots. IBM could allow PCIe graphics cards, mice, keyboards and more. Essentially, IBM z16 and AMD Ryzen can implement the same hardware if there was enough customer demand. 3. OS does not make a mainframe. Linux running on z16 doesn't make it mainframe Linux. There's nothing stopping Linux from taking advantage of every z16 hardware feature (e.g. 1,600 PCIe slots) but no one is willing to build the Linux software. IBM hasn't duplicated z/OS software features in Linux. 4. Software does not make a mainframe. IBM sells DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS. DB2 for Linux runs on all hardware including z16. With Linux, you can still run DB2 on z16 but large customers choose DB2 for z/OS. ASK YOURSELF: Other than design philosophy, name 1 fundamental difference between IBM z16, AMD Ryzen and the software. ASK YOURSELF: Since design philosophy is the only difference, name the philosophy that makes a mainframe. Despite the story's false claims for z/OS relevance, it is ignorance in the Linux community that makes IBM z/OS relevant. Specifically, it's the lack of design in Linux. Consider DB2 for Linux and DB2 for z/OS which are the same product both from IBM and available on an IBM z16. Linux people tell you they provide the same results, but they ignore the intrinsic capabilities of z/OS design. DB2 for Linux supports high availability and large databases but it requires knowledge of big data solutions, Linux clustering solutions and more. Add a computer to the cluster and you must replicate the master disk. Take a computer offline from the cluster, then it must re-sync or replicate the master disk. DB2 on z/OS does not experience these problems because of z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant feature design that originated directly from Linux or Unix. Please don't use features that originated from IBM (e.g. databases, SQL, HTML, Cloud and more). Brilliant feature design exposes very little. For instance, does anyone know the problems solved by z/OS shared dasd and dasd mirroring. Linux people on the other hand can easily name those problems solved if you mention clustering solutions and big data solutions. I've personally seen one sysplex split between 2 sites 40 KM apart using line of site satellite dishes for communication, yet z/OS app programmers were informed. In other words, IBM designs for the 21st century. ASK YOURSELF: Name 1 brilliant unnoticed Linux feature. Name several brilliant unnoticed z/OS features. The story claims Linux feature design is similar to z/OS feature design. For example, the story claims
