"Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
"Everyone wants to retire mainframes ..."
Folks, That article: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ -- has a nice historical photo at the top, but with no explanation whatsoever of the content of that picture. That is none other than (a then young) Grace Hopper, who was instrumental in the development of COBOL, and who worked for the U.S. Navy for most of her career. I had the privilege of meeting her, in person, early in my career, when she was then an "elder statesman" for COBOL and had been given the honorary rank of "Rear Admiral" in the US Navy ... (she was officially retired from the Navy by then); that was in the late 1970s, around 1976 or 1977, if I remember correctly. At that time, she always carried with her a small bundle of "bell wire" all cut to a lengh of just under 12 inches, or the distance an electrical signal would travel over copper wire in one nanosecond. As she met each new person, she would hand you one of these pieces of wire and say, "That's a nanosecond!" with some delight. :-) See also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper and https://news.yale.edu/2017/02/10/grace-murray-hopper-1906-1992-legacy-innovation-and-service Anyway, I just wanted to point that out, about that photo. These young so-called journalists today never do proper research or "vett" any of their stories they write, or "fact check" anything. It is really a shame. And, as for the numbers they quote, of what percentage of those "surveyed" responded this way or that, what percentage of how large a population? And who did they survey, exactly -- a bunch of young MBA types who are now typically in the role of "CIO" or VP, IS? Those are the same people who are largely responsible for ruining much of the industry, with "outsourcing" to the lowest bidder overseas, etc. :-o Just saying ... All the best, Mark S. Waterbury -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Interesting re 2): "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? Is it biased somehow? Cheers, Peter On 9/06/2020 10:02 pm, Bob Bridges wrote: A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Le 09/06/2020 à 14:24, Peter Bishop a écrit : > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? > What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample > size? Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter it does make sense if out of those 4 machines, they have older and newer boxes... Raphael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I suspect that "modernization" means using what is in style and that the 100% is because of a tailored audience. The "fear of change" survey seems to be more about perceptions than objective reality. Then there':s this: "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old." I don't find that plausible. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://secure-web.cisco.com/14-WFIR1qBZCPuzn3LqYDmZXYM30fIjsT2MnewE60Th_hg2gOvsS42TRp3CAdodmUvSgJD1oBg83FNFvZHHMQKwFU3OGy_6c0F8mcjbiPnV_WIXOEY91LV0fEy2WxY8iEa6lxD7Vvv0V4nEoaOJsYkk4hMUnnm2pe4Qm-_Y4qRk32esZBtNHCv9c4ZOCQspwZ1QTj9fvWTglYYj2jEl1v4iTFerOlmT2tMCbrMfC_ojW1YvFd-0XN4vzfFFwI2zb50IItjW4-vzfJroGRDGu8x43dFNqzn9onwZdAgRzHD3BJKs4CNY5LOSmS67YM22wAb2QRKB3nB9RIUAbuKOByzJatYZofnptjQxip-LBfe9ZwmeOyyKZzQj0-gARidYzdIM7iPWmZVve0e3COSbrAfDgHb8ONMMdQjCWtcPnnlzM22I8hMeFyJF18vJg_rVDC/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Bet many were 30 year old 4381s, 3081s or whatever running MVS prior to XA. Depends who you ask. Application base code may not have changed much. I'd hope front-ends are no longer subarea SNA! Many hardware and software upgrades later we have modernised the mainframe. Didn't MVS address spaces invent the 'Cloud'? For what mainframes do well, try doing it better AND cheaper in the 'Cloud'. Same as the 30-50 year old spade with 3 new blades and 10 new handles. Mike Wawiorko -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Bishop Sent: 09 June 2020 13:24 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" This mail originated from outside our organisation - p.bis...@computer.org Interesting re 2): "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? Is it biased somehow? Cheers, Peter This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the addressee and may also be privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately, delete it from your system and do not copy, disclose or otherwise act upon any part of this e-mail or its attachments. Internet communications are not guaranteed to be secure or virus-free. The Barclays Group does not accept responsibility for any loss arising from unauthorised access to, or interference with, any Internet communications by any third party, or from the transmission of any viruses. Replies to this e-mail may be monitored by the Barclays Group for operational or business reasons. Any opinion or other information in this e-mail or its attachments that does not relate to the business of the Barclays Group is personal to the sender and is not given or endorsed by the Barclays Group. Barclays Execution Services Limited provides support and administrative services across Barclays group. Barclays Execution Services Limited is an appointed representative of Barclays Bank UK plc, Barclays Bank plc and Clydesdale Financial Services Limited. Barclays Bank UK plc and Barclays Bank plc are authorised by the Prudential Regulation Authority and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority. Clydesdale Financial Services Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Everyone, I can tell you as a fact that there are a number of things are true. Many "modernization" projects do end up not being completed, no big mainframe shop is looking to get off the mainframe, there are a large number of projects underway where the client is "modernizing" on the mainframe (language, file conversion, DBMS conversion, etc) and lastly (not a lot, but some) there are mainframe shops that are going to the zCloud which is essentially moving from one data center to another, keeping the mainframe. Anyone who tells you most (100%?, really?) mainframe users are going to distributed or distributed platform cloud are exaggerating the truth. I know this because mainframe modernization is what I do for a living. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bob Bridges To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 7:02 am Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's computer... Regards – Grant. DTCC Public (White) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mitch Mccluhan Sent: 09 June 2020 13:51 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" ATTENTION: External Email – Be Suspicious of Attachments, Links and Requests for Login Information. Everyone, I can tell you as a fact that there are a number of things are true. Many "modernization" projects do end up not being completed, no big mainframe shop is looking to get off the mainframe, there are a large number of projects underway where the client is "modernizing" on the mainframe (language, file conversion, DBMS conversion, etc) and lastly (not a lot, but some) there are mainframe shops that are going to the zCloud which is essentially moving from one data center to another, keeping the mainframe. Anyone who tells you most (100%?, really?) mainframe users are going to distributed or distributed platform cloud are exaggerating the truth. I know this because mainframe modernization is what I do for a living. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bob Bridges To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 7:02 am Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgwardable%40DTCC.COM%7Cfe5df2a430cb4910820008d80c73d5bb%7C0465519d7f554d47998b55e2a86f04a8%7C0%7C1%7C637273038932904759&sdata=ZxLg5w7uOZfrziPaK5scu%2BrGvGtTSjxkIafKyfwlvfE%3D&reserved=0 I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN DTCC DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately and delete the email and any attachments from your system. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
BINGO -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ward Able, Grant Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 7:56 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION ** There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's computer... Regards – Grant. DTCC Public (White) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mitch Mccluhan Sent: 09 June 2020 13:51 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" ATTENTION: External Email – Be Suspicious of Attachments, Links and Requests for Login Information. Everyone, I can tell you as a fact that there are a number of things are true. Many "modernization" projects do end up not being completed, no big mainframe shop is looking to get off the mainframe, there are a large number of projects underway where the client is "modernizing" on the mainframe (language, file conversion, DBMS conversion, etc) and lastly (not a lot, but some) there are mainframe shops that are going to the zCloud which is essentially moving from one data center to another, keeping the mainframe. Anyone who tells you most (100%?, really?) mainframe users are going to distributed or distributed platform cloud are exaggerating the truth. I know this because mainframe modernization is what I do for a living. Mitch -Original Message- From: Bob Bridges To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 7:02 am Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C725a6e6bbfc7491e27da08d80c746d3d%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C0%7C637273041502068880&sdata=x%2BEGwGWvVL%2F8lxapfBsYAjOcUtxZ3xmlb2rTqMoMeAE%3D&reserved=0 I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN DTCC DISCLAIMER: This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately and delete the email and any attachments from your system. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to t
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
John McKown, you are not alone! ITschak Mugzach *|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM comming son * On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:08 PM Ron Wells < 02ebc63ff5ef-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > BINGO > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Ward Able, Grant > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 7:56 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION ** > > > There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's > computer... > > > Regards – Grant. > > > > > DTCC Public (White) > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Mitch Mccluhan > Sent: 09 June 2020 13:51 > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > ATTENTION: External Email – Be Suspicious of Attachments, Links and > Requests for Login Information. > > Everyone, > I can tell you as a fact that there are a number of things are true. Many > "modernization" projects do end up not being completed, no big mainframe > shop is looking to get off the mainframe, there are a large number of > projects underway where the client is "modernizing" on the mainframe > (language, file conversion, DBMS conversion, etc) and lastly (not a lot, > but some) there are mainframe shops that are going to the zCloud which is > essentially moving from one data center to another, keeping the mainframe. > Anyone who tells you most (100%?, really?) mainframe users are going to > distributed or distributed platform cloud are exaggerating the truth. I > know this because mainframe modernization is what I do for a living. > Mitch > > > -Original Message- > From: Bob Bridges > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 7:02 am > Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C725a6e6bbfc7491e27da08d80c746d3d%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C0%7C637273041502068880&sdata=x%2BEGwGWvVL%2F8lxapfBsYAjOcUtxZ3xmlb2rTqMoMeAE%3D&reserved=0 > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I > can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from > mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old > assumption we've talked about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to > the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail > to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed > it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the > author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business > operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, > including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us > that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications > to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not > be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN DT
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
this just upsets me in so many ways. The ignorance is amazing. I happen to be at a shop where aws is the current sexy flavor of the day. the mainframes at my shop have there days numbered for very invalid and naive reasons. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:49:53 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old." > >I don't find that plausible. > I also find this very hard to believe. *average* 17 years old? Current machines available in 2003 could be anything from CMOS G5 to z900 G2, not even considering what release of z/OS would be supported on them. Obviously none of these sites are financial institutions that have to be PCI and SOX compliant. Dana -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:56 AM Ward Able, Grant wrote: > There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's > computer... > And it's just a re-invention of "time sharing". Well, except that each client has its own set of virtual machines (maybe real machines, but I doubt it) with their data on one or more SAN disks (LUNs?). I remember that from the 1970s (not sure about the date). I do remember the college where I went (U.T. Arlington) had a few terminals (the IBM "selectric typewriter" ones) which connected, I think, to "Scientific Time Sharing" (STSC?). > > > Regards – Grant. > -- People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
This is funny and sad at the same time; my company went as far as creating a new group 'Virtualization technology' dedicated to 'CLOUD' computing, when I told my director that we, on the mainframe with some work can create a Zcloud instance or instances using z/osmf - he was surprised, but did not embrace the fact Z can participate in could computing. like anything else, the decisions on what technology, and what tools we use, even on the mainframe are being decided by folks that do not have a clue and do not engage my group at all. sad very sad Carmen Vitullo - Original Message - From: "Bill Giannelli" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:15:02 AM Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" this just upsets me in so many ways. The ignorance is amazing. I happen to be at a shop where aws is the current sexy flavor of the day. the mainframes at my shop have there days numbered for very invalid and naive reasons. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I think to most here the argument against mainframes from a technical point of view is wrong. But I wondering if another aspect has to be looked at. That is IBM's sales, licensing and promotion of their technology. I realize all this is old news. But lack of promotion (compared to other companies) and lack of development of new talent in younger generations.. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Hmmm, let me see if I remember. Oh yeah, what used to be called a remote data center! Mitch -Original Message- From: ITschak Mugzach To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 8:14 am Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" John McKown, you are not alone! ITschak Mugzach *|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM comming son * On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:08 PM Ron Wells < 02ebc63ff5ef-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > BINGO > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Ward Able, Grant > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 7:56 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION ** > > > There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's > computer... > > > Regards – Grant. > > > > > DTCC Public (White) > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Mitch Mccluhan > Sent: 09 June 2020 13:51 > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > ATTENTION: External Email – Be Suspicious of Attachments, Links and > Requests for Login Information. > > Everyone, > I can tell you as a fact that there are a number of things are true. Many > "modernization" projects do end up not being completed, no big mainframe > shop is looking to get off the mainframe, there are a large number of > projects underway where the client is "modernizing" on the mainframe > (language, file conversion, DBMS conversion, etc) and lastly (not a lot, > but some) there are mainframe shops that are going to the zCloud which is > essentially moving from one data center to another, keeping the mainframe. > Anyone who tells you most (100%?, really?) mainframe users are going to > distributed or distributed platform cloud are exaggerating the truth. I > know this because mainframe modernization is what I do for a living. > Mitch > > > -Original Message- > From: Bob Bridges > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Sent: Tue, Jun 9, 2020 7:02 am > Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRon.Wells%40OMF.COM%7C725a6e6bbfc7491e27da08d80c746d3d%7C57c0053cb5f84a1e8bb6e8afa09f3b82%7C0%7C0%7C637273041502068880&sdata=x%2BEGwGWvVL%2F8lxapfBsYAjOcUtxZ3xmlb2rTqMoMeAE%3D&reserved=0 > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I > can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from > mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old > assumption we've talked about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to > the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail > to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed > it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the > author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business > operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, > including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us > that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications > to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not > be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the messag
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Time sharing systems with each user having his own CMS virtual machine goes back a long way; at least to National CSS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:56 AM Ward Able, Grant wrote: > There's no such thing as The Cloud - it's just someone else's > computer... > And it's just a re-invention of "time sharing". Well, except that each client has its own set of virtual machines (maybe real machines, but I doubt it) with their data on one or more SAN disks (LUNs?). I remember that from the 1970s (not sure about the date). I do remember the college where I went (U.T. Arlington) had a few terminals (the IBM "selectric typewriter" ones) which connected, I think, to "Scientific Time Sharing" (STSC?). > > > Regards – Grant. > -- People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
W dniu 09.06.2020 o 14:24, Peter Bishop pisze: Interesting re 2): "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? Is it biased somehow? Cheers, Peter It can be understood as how long the company is using mainframe, not how old is the currently used CPC. Of course mainframe is old, obsolete, expensive... blah, blah, blah... -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
How long has your company been using electricity? Time to modernize. Yes, I know that you've replaced the wiring three times and have solar power on your roof, but it's still the same obsolete electricity. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 10:35 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" W dniu 09.06.2020 o 14:24, Peter Bishop pisze: > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 > years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the > sample size? Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter It can be understood as how long the company is using mainframe, not how old is the currently used CPC. Of course mainframe is old, obsolete, expensive... blah, blah, blah... -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1fweH3hW6JwpfA1BxzPSBmm-WkVTANCmc6rFRK7QRpvY86fnb3PXJgmZVxpaHo9aiOfxJH54mINVlA9th-bP8Eu-laZ_a1NfFSO_gQNmLx3xNiJhx9n_qoxpD1cCNZfNO920Tqxbqq-4GS3C30F_l0jx3yKLKN9g0EssIwtsjSRoKWa_9lYIpQdxkTwP8oCCgd2JPGa4Z-r4D89-_QriOKTzIeRPNAujA4UjybaKA771z-ad9BBlkDqr8N_V-_8qE2mpt-JFaxraHSX5CQ4yUSUPQ4OVQQb2BRSA6bOo_-YtEsMvtRUkLV193ZGgf47dV7t4J2rRT9vBN3m3eHEZr6mRN6p5V7QF3nftQ4hSZ0vhpHcCxxtYES-pvoDd452wqkIv5kVI0C5YmB5DJzW_n0GGhtIIis6yzHcSCFtCxD3GjjlEpe8Rys5sn1d5KFh_-/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1fweH3hW6JwpfA1BxzPSBmm-WkVTANCmc6rFRK7QRpvY86fnb3PXJgmZVxpaHo9aiOfxJH54mINVlA9th-bP8Eu-laZ_a1NfFSO_gQNmLx3xNiJhx9n_qoxpD1cCNZfNO920Tqxbqq-4GS3C30F_l0jx3yKLKN9g0EssIwtsjSRoKWa_9lYIpQdxkTwP8oCCgd2JPGa4Z-r4D89-_QriOKTzIeRPNAujA4UjybaKA771z-ad9BBlkDqr8N_V-_8qE2mpt-JFaxraHSX5CQ4yUSUPQ4OVQQb2BRSA6bOo_-YtEsMvtRUkLV193ZGgf47dV7t4J2rRT9vBN3m3eHEZr6mRN6p5V7QF3nftQ4hSZ0vhpHcCxxtYES-pvoDd452wqkIv5kVI0C5YmB5DJzW_n0GGhtIIis6yzHcSCFtCxD3GjjlEpe8Rys5sn1d5KFh_-/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
What do you think about paved roads? Theyre something else, huh? Nice and smooth... Joe On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:41 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > How long has your company been using electricity? Time to modernize. > > Yes, I know that you've replaced the wiring three times and have solar > power on your roof, but it's still the same obsolete electricity. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl] > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 10:35 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > W dniu 09.06.2020 o 14:24, Peter Bishop pisze: > > Interesting re 2): > > > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 > > years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the > > sample size? Is it biased somehow? > > > > Cheers, > > Peter > > It can be understood as how long the company is using mainframe, not how > old is the currently used CPC. > Of course mainframe is old, obsolete, expensive... blah, blah, blah... > > > -- > Radoslaw Skorupka > Lodz, Poland > > > > > > == > > Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: > > - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), > - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub > zapisałeś na dysku). > Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może > wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia > (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, > narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. > > mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1fweH3hW6JwpfA1BxzPSBmm-WkVTANCmc6rFRK7QRpvY86fnb3PXJgmZVxpaHo9aiOfxJH54mINVlA9th-bP8Eu-laZ_a1NfFSO_gQNmLx3xNiJhx9n_qoxpD1cCNZfNO920Tqxbqq-4GS3C30F_l0jx3yKLKN9g0EssIwtsjSRoKWa_9lYIpQdxkTwP8oCCgd2JPGa4Z-r4D89-_QriOKTzIeRPNAujA4UjybaKA771z-ad9BBlkDqr8N_V-_8qE2mpt-JFaxraHSX5CQ4yUSUPQ4OVQQb2BRSA6bOo_-YtEsMvtRUkLV193ZGgf47dV7t4J2rRT9vBN3m3eHEZr6mRN6p5V7QF3nftQ4hSZ0vhpHcCxxtYES-pvoDd452wqkIv5kVI0C5YmB5DJzW_n0GGhtIIis6yzHcSCFtCxD3GjjlEpe8Rys5sn1d5KFh_-/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, > e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział > Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: > 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na > 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. > > If you are not the addressee of this message: > > - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), > - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have > printed out or saved). > This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used > exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who > disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar > action, violates the law and may be penalised. > > mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 > Warszawa, > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1fweH3hW6JwpfA1BxzPSBmm-WkVTANCmc6rFRK7QRpvY86fnb3PXJgmZVxpaHo9aiOfxJH54mINVlA9th-bP8Eu-laZ_a1NfFSO_gQNmLx3xNiJhx9n_qoxpD1cCNZfNO920Tqxbqq-4GS3C30F_l0jx3yKLKN9g0EssIwtsjSRoKWa_9lYIpQdxkTwP8oCCgd2JPGa4Z-r4D89-_QriOKTzIeRPNAujA4UjybaKA771z-ad9BBlkDqr8N_V-_8qE2mpt-JFaxraHSX5CQ4yUSUPQ4OVQQb2BRSA6bOo_-YtEsMvtRUkLV193ZGgf47dV7t4J2rRT9vBN3m3eHEZr6mRN6p5V7QF3nftQ4hSZ0vhpHcCxxtYES-pvoDd452wqkIv5kVI0C5YmB5DJzW_n0GGhtIIis6yzHcSCFtCxD3GjjlEpe8Rys5sn1d5KFh_-/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl, > e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, > 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, > NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN > 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Regarding 100% customers: - Did you think about replatforming? - Yes. (OK, another one on the list) - And what? - And concluded it would be very stupid idea. We did the analysis and we know that. Another explanation: Mainframe shops are sometimes big companies. It is very likely to find an idiot in large group. Ask the idiot, note his responses. Is the idiot the person who decide? Well... It is also somehow likely to find out a person who think Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin were soccer players. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 09.06.2020 o 14:02, Bob Bridges pisze: A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN . == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:54 AM Tom Brennan
wrote:
> When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had
> been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than
> them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the
> school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision
> maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that
> was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that
> IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And
> that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc.
>
>
I want an _affordable_ version of zPDT for _myself_ as a _hobbiest_. The
current zPDT seems to be for "home workers" of an ISV or maybe office
workers for a 2-3 person operation (IDK). I just looked and it is $900/yr
U.S. . I can afford that. But I'm not an ISV. And I don't want to "bother"
with whatever it takes to convince IBM that I am an ISV. Mainly because I'd
be lying through my teeth. And I'm not a scum politician, so I'm adverse to
doing that. {yeah, I'm being tacky}
--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
The first really dumb thing that IBM did was to STOP providing heavily discounted mainframe hardware and software to universities and colleges. The NYC public colleges (CUNY, City University of New York) used to offer courses in COBOL and VSAM and many other mainframe technologies in the 1970's and into the 1980's, as did prestigious universities like NYU, but by the time my son attended CUNY post-2000 there were none of these courses available any more. Everything in the CS area was x86 hardware and Linux OS based. The second really dumb thing that IBM did was to stop caring and feeding smaller commercial businesses running various combinations of DOS / VSE / VM software on (then) less-expensive hardware, at least in the US. I think Europe still has a thriving or at least surviving VM/VSE community. Successful small businesses, while less profitable in the present can easily over time become larger businesses needing the IBM flagship OS and corresponding hardware. No small ecosystem growing into a larger ecosystem means the potentially profitable pipeline dries up. Just my personal opinions of course. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainfram > es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can > tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to > more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked > about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the > cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they > fail to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it > to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author > ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the > world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of > those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just > can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. > --- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
That's just the price of the current ADCD offering. To license
zPDT itself is roughly $4,000/emulated CPU.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 12:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:54 AM Tom Brennan
wrote:
> When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had
> been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more
> than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day
> on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the
> decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always
> thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was
> rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of
> all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal,
> delivery, tuning, etc.
>
>
I want an _affordable_ version of zPDT for _myself_ as a _hobbiest_. The
current zPDT seems to be for "home workers" of an ISV or maybe office workers
for a 2-3 person operation (IDK). I just looked and it is $900/yr U.S. . I can
afford that. But I'm not an ISV. And I don't want to "bother"
with whatever it takes to convince IBM that I am an ISV. Mainly because I'd be
lying through my teeth. And I'm not a scum politician, so I'm adverse to doing
that. {yeah, I'm being tacky}
--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Confidentiality notice:
This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally privileged
and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or
the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended
recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or
copying of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited. If you have received
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Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
John,
It isn't just the $900 per year for the ADCD OS license. You can’t legally get
ADCD without the ~$5K yearly cost of the zPDT dongle and Linux hardware
emulation layer to run the OS's. That's the real kicker.
OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if bad-actor state security organizations (or US
security skunkworks organizations for that matter) haven't already
reverse-engineered the zPDT dongle for their own nefarious uses. Paranoid?
Maybe, maybe not.
Peter
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of
John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 12:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:54 AM Tom Brennan
wrote:
> When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had
> been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more
> than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day
> on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the
> decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always
> thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was
> rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of
> all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal,
> delivery, tuning, etc.
>
>
I want an _affordable_ version of zPDT for _myself_ as a _hobbiest_. The
current zPDT seems to be for "home workers" of an ISV or maybe office workers
for a 2-3 person operation (IDK). I just looked and it is $900/yr U.S. . I can
afford that. But I'm not an ISV. And I don't want to "bother"
with whatever it takes to convince IBM that I am an ISV. Mainly because I'd be
lying through my teeth. And I'm not a scum politician, so I'm adverse to doing
that. {yeah, I'm being tacky}
--
This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any
attachments from your system.
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Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 11:28 AM PINION, RICHARD W.
wrote:
> That's just the price of the current ADCD offering. To license
> zPDT itself is roughly $4,000/emulated CPU.
>
In the words of Emily Latilla: "Never mind."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5Vg
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf
> Of John McKown
> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 12:24 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
>
> [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening
> attachments.]
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 10:54 AM Tom Brennan
> wrote:
>
> > When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had
> > been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more
> > than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day
> > on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the
> > decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always
> > thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was
> > rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of
> > all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal,
> delivery, tuning, etc.
> >
> >
> I want an _affordable_ version of zPDT for _myself_ as a _hobbiest_. The
> current zPDT seems to be for "home workers" of an ISV or maybe office
> workers for a 2-3 person operation (IDK). I just looked and it is $900/yr
> U.S. . I can afford that. But I'm not an ISV. And I don't want to "bother"
> with whatever it takes to convince IBM that I am an ISV. Mainly because
> I'd be lying through my teeth. And I'm not a scum politician, so I'm
> adverse to doing that. {yeah, I'm being tacky}
>
>
> --
> People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> Confidentiality notice:
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally
> privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this
> message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail message is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
> notify the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
>
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 11:38 AM Farley, Peter x23353 < peter.far...@broadridge.com> wrote: > John, > > It isn't just the $900 per year for the ADCD OS license. You can’t > legally get ADCD without the ~$5K yearly cost of the zPDT dongle and Linux > hardware emulation layer to run the OS's. That's the real kicker. > > OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if bad-actor state security organizations (or > US security skunkworks organizations for that matter) haven't already > reverse-engineered the zPDT dongle for their own nefarious uses. > Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not. > I have read "elsewhere" that some people got at least some earlier versions of z/OS to run on a PC using Hercules/390. So the "bad actor" states likely can run z/OS. > > Peter > > > -- People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
True, but not entirely satisfactorily. Many of the "newer" (FSVO "new") complex instructions have yet to be added to any of the Hercules emulator systems, so "full" emulation as available in zPDT isn't truly available (yet, until/unless more people contribute and make it so). IMHO IBM could easily make the zPDT system with its developer-level CPU / I/O governors to prevent "production" level performance at a realistic hobbyist cost level. But it seems as if zPDT is just another profit opportunity in their minds, rather than a community-builder. In the long run, community-building will wind up far more profitable, but that view seems not to have penetrated the IBM decision-makers' minds. What would really blow my mind would be regularly released copies of the (in?)famous "Redbook" copy of PoOPS with all the micro- and milli-code documentation which could provide a way to (perhaps) quickly be able to emulate many of the "new" more complex instructions with micro- and milli-code emulation in addition to software emulation of the silicon-implemented instructions. *Never* going to happen of course, because then (heaven forfend!) there could well be a re-incarnation of the "clone wars", but one can dream. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John McKown Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 12:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 11:38 AM Farley, Peter x23353 < peter.far...@broadridge.com> wrote: > John, > > It isn't just the $900 per year for the ADCD OS license. You can’t > legally get ADCD without the ~$5K yearly cost of the zPDT dongle and > Linux hardware emulation layer to run the OS's. That's the real kicker. > > OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if bad-actor state security organizations > (or US security skunkworks organizations for that matter) haven't > already reverse-engineered the zPDT dongle for their own nefarious uses. > Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not. > I have read "elsewhere" that some people got at least some earlier versions of z/OS to run on a PC using Hercules/390. So the "bad actor" states likely can run z/OS. > > Peter -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
And maybe the third dumb thing they did was give DOS to Gates and trash OS/2 Doug Fuerst d...@bkassociates.net -- Original Message -- From: "Farley, Peter x23353" To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu Sent: 09-Jun-20 12:25:16 Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" The first really dumb thing that IBM did was to STOP providing heavily discounted mainframe hardware and software to universities and colleges. The NYC public colleges (CUNY, City University of New York) used to offer courses in COBOL and VSAM and many other mainframe technologies in the 1970's and into the 1980's, as did prestigious universities like NYU, but by the time my son attended CUNY post-2000 there were none of these courses available any more. Everything in the CS area was x86 hardware and Linux OS based. The second really dumb thing that IBM did was to stop caring and feeding smaller commercial businesses running various combinations of DOS / VSE / VM software on (then) less-expensive hardware, at least in the US. I think Europe still has a thriving or at least surviving VM/VSE community. Successful small businesses, while less profitable in the present can easily over time become larger businesses needing the IBM flagship OS and corresponding hardware. No small ecosystem growing into a larger ecosystem means the potentially profitable pipeline dries up. Just my personal opinions of course. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainfram es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 17:23:48 +, Doug wrote: >And maybe the third dumb thing they did was give DOS to Gates and trash >OS/2 > And way before that, not making PL/S a product. It left a void that's belatedly being filled by Metal C. >-- Original Message -- >From: "Farley, Peter x23353" >Sent: 09-Jun-20 12:25:16 > >>The first really dumb thing that IBM did was to STOP providing heavily >>discounted mainframe hardware and software to universities and colleges. The >>NYC public colleges (CUNY, City University of New York) used to offer courses >>in COBOL and VSAM and many other mainframe technologies in the 1970's and >>into the 1980's, as did prestigious universities like NYU, but by the time my >>son attended CUNY post-2000 there were none of these courses available any >>more. Everything in the CS area was x86 hardware and Linux OS based. >> >>The second really dumb thing that IBM did was to stop caring and feeding >>smaller commercial businesses running various combinations of DOS / VSE / VM >>software on (then) less-expensive hardware, at least in the US. I think >>Europe still has a thriving or at least surviving VM/VSE community. >>Successful small businesses, while less profitable in the present can easily >>over time become larger businesses needing the IBM flagship OS and >>corresponding hardware. No small ecosystem growing into a larger ecosystem >>means the potentially profitable pipeline dries up. >> >>Just my personal opinions of course. >> >>-Original Message- >>From: Tom Brennan >>Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 AM >> >>When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been >>supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just >>being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand >>piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an >>orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of >>them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar >>with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... >>no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. >> Was the (1959?) Consent Decree an obstacle to that? Did IBM partly persist under the umbrella of R&D partnerships? >>On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: >>> A coworker just sent me this brief article. >>> >>> >>> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Probably a combination of legal issues and lack of vision. Didn't the consent decree kill the 80% discount? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1h8_Z1HJHyWR1DS49jM-fQ5QyC79B4AjQ5BJAf2QNfWMe6S3QU5rquqDgOE7nbyVmlJOtpB29Od29EHvWRGu0oEaJeM54xC24QLMdQqxASXpXu3z7T6o8Wkw7U1s-WuyDkka_vYd3P4kLQJbPc0aO0RVrTEMg3eMLhMPLlwLbd1pYgapP45w3yusjNB_mTTALGW1I1S9C1E1FuKVX94TL8i6WJN_g28L_Us1Slg3oPqA__zxdzx6qo3K8zfRXhtw9i3EeL22VLdlFiMMhopyxBW4w3PQ3H3GvVFwHduh4SVhvng0XPXP5Fgy3XUueIy9eH0D3BVpAN7yHlLa1kHdEokIUN6gEN4CNVhKswKjwD3xO9gc0OosCbs3CoAM6TNm7EiPQwapZy5FIyKlh58OAsQm_62cVKJm2UA78hL-1jK4hrbwdt-54F8rv2GujDrZ4/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can > tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to > more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked > about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the > cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to > modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market > changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it > to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author > ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the > world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of > those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just > can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Apple Did the high school thing. That's where they got their devotees. On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:54 PM Tom Brennan wrote: > > When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had > been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than > them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the > school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision > maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that > was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that > IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And > that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. > > On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > > > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I > > can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from > > mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old > > assumption we've talked about recently. > > > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to > > the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to > > modernize > > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market > > changes > > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > > projects > > > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > > program but failed to complete it" > > > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed > > it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the > > author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of > > the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost > > ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? > > I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning > > such a move. > > > > --- > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I don't pay much attention to IBM's marketing practices so I can't opine knowledgeably, but I offer this counter, a story I'm sure I've told here before: Some years ago my oldest son got interested in learning mainframes. (I think he must have heard me rant too often about my increasing job security, due to colleges ignoring mainframes and thus making old fogies like me less and less replaceable even as our salaries keep rising.) So I started asking around: Where might I rent a couple of mainframe IDs on a commercial data center, and how much might I pay for it? I figured I'd start coaching him in the basics, and see how far his interest went. I didn't make a big campaign of it, but I called here and there for a few weeks. My questions must have gotten around, because one evening I got a call from someone at IBM with a very direct offer: If I would contact my local university and get them to run a few classes in mainframes - almost any relevant class - the university would rent space at a data center and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts that I could use to teach my son. Heck, I could teach a class or two myself. I called NC A&T State U, where I'd worked a couple years. Couldn't arouse any interest. Could be IBM isn't marketing themselves very strenuously. Could be they're not losing market share and don't need to. I don't know. But it sounds to me like they're doing ~something~ at any rate. But as far as I can tell, the colleges have this notion that mainframes are out of date, and can't get out of that mindset or notice the facts. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth — only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair. -CS Lewis in _The Case for Christianity_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
You're probably correct about the academic mindset and IBM's failure to successfully market to them that the mainframe CAN do all the "cool" things they perceive as the latest-and-greatest-idea(s), and is actively "keeping up" with the best of those ideas. Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. The 20th century "80% discount" that IBM offered to academic institutions pre-consent-decree would today probably be laughed right out of the Bursar's or Treasurer's office. 20% of too-much-already is a lot more than they pay for the little hardware beasts and the nothing they pay for the software that runs on them. It's a tough sell now. Would have been worlds easier if addressed intelligently back then and continued into this century. It was an IBM chairman who declared to investors that "IBM will never be in a low-margin business". They are getting what they asked for. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" I don't pay much attention to IBM's marketing practices so I can't opine knowledgeably, but I offer this counter, a story I'm sure I've told here before: Some years ago my oldest son got interested in learning mainframes. (I think he must have heard me rant too often about my increasing job security, due to colleges ignoring mainframes and thus making old fogies like me less and less replaceable even as our salaries keep rising.) So I started asking around: Where might I rent a couple of mainframe IDs on a commercial data center, and how much might I pay for it? I figured I'd start coaching him in the basics, and see how far his interest went. I didn't make a big campaign of it, but I called here and there for a few weeks. My questions must have gotten around, because one evening I got a call from someone at IBM with a very direct offer: If I would contact my local university and get them to run a few classes in mainframes - almost any relevant class - the university would rent space at a data center and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts that I could use to teach my son. Heck, I could teach a class or two myself. I called NC A&T State U, where I'd worked a couple years. Couldn't arouse any interest. Could be IBM isn't marketing themselves very strenuously. Could be they're not losing market share and don't need to. I don't know. But it sounds to me like they're doing ~something~ at any rate. But as far as I can tell, the colleges have this notion that mainframes are out of date, and can't get out of that mindset or notice the facts. --- -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Unfortunate IBM does not offer systems or training for schools. The flood of kids knowing what it is vs the teachings that go on today, I would say you would see a swing back...over night.. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 4:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" ** EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION ** I don't pay much attention to IBM's marketing practices so I can't opine knowledgeably, but I offer this counter, a story I'm sure I've told here before: Some years ago my oldest son got interested in learning mainframes. (I think he must have heard me rant too often about my increasing job security, due to colleges ignoring mainframes and thus making old fogies like me less and less replaceable even as our salaries keep rising.) So I started asking around: Where might I rent a couple of mainframe IDs on a commercial data center, and how much might I pay for it? I figured I'd start coaching him in the basics, and see how far his interest went. I didn't make a big campaign of it, but I called here and there for a few weeks. My questions must have gotten around, because one evening I got a call from someone at IBM with a very direct offer: If I would contact my local university and get them to run a few classes in mainframes - almost any relevant class - the university would rent space at a data center and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts that I could use to teach my son. Heck, I could teach a class or two myself. I called NC A&T State U, where I'd worked a couple years. Couldn't arouse any interest. Could be IBM isn't marketing themselves very strenuously. Could be they're not losing market share and don't need to. I don't know. But it sounds to me like they're doing ~something~ at any rate. But as far as I can tell, the colleges have this notion that mainframes are out of date, and can't get out of that mindset or notice the facts. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth — only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair. -CS Lewis in _The Case for Christianity_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:53:51 +, Farley, Peter wrote: >You're probably correct about the academic mindset and IBM's failure to >successfully market to them that the mainframe CAN do all the "cool" things >they perceive as the latest-and-greatest-idea(s), and is actively "keeping up" >with the best of those ideas. > Yes, but JCL. JCL is to programming as Roman numerals are to arithmetic. And EBCDIC. "Doesn't play well with others." >Add to that the opensoource mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" >and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company >perspective. > >The 20th century "80% discount" that IBM offered to academic institutions >pre-consent-decree would today probably be laughed right out of the Bursar's >or Treasurer's office. 20% of too-much-already is a lot more than they pay >for the little hardware beasts and the nothing they pay for the software that >runs on them. > >It's a tough sell now. Would have been worlds easier if addressed >intelligently back then and continued into this century. > >It was an IBM chairman who declared o investors that "IBM will never be in a >low-margin business". They are getting what they asked for. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
> Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" I wish. GMU is using proprietary e-mail software and no longer allows access via POP3 or IMAP4. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:53 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" You're probably correct about the academic mindset and IBM's failure to successfully market to them that the mainframe CAN do all the "cool" things they perceive as the latest-and-greatest-idea(s), and is actively "keeping up" with the best of those ideas. Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. The 20th century "80% discount" that IBM offered to academic institutions pre-consent-decree would today probably be laughed right out of the Bursar's or Treasurer's office. 20% of too-much-already is a lot more than they pay for the little hardware beasts and the nothing they pay for the software that runs on them. It's a tough sell now. Would have been worlds easier if addressed intelligently back then and continued into this century. It was an IBM chairman who declared to investors that "IBM will never be in a low-margin business". They are getting what they asked for. Peter -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" I don't pay much attention to IBM's marketing practices so I can't opine knowledgeably, but I offer this counter, a story I'm sure I've told here before: Some years ago my oldest son got interested in learning mainframes. (I think he must have heard me rant too often about my increasing job security, due to colleges ignoring mainframes and thus making old fogies like me less and less replaceable even as our salaries keep rising.) So I started asking around: Where might I rent a couple of mainframe IDs on a commercial data center, and how much might I pay for it? I figured I'd start coaching him in the basics, and see how far his interest went. I didn't make a big campaign of it, but I called here and there for a few weeks. My questions must have gotten around, because one evening I got a call from someone at IBM with a very direct offer: If I would contact my local university and get them to run a few classes in mainframes - almost any relevant class - the university would rent space at a data center and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts that I could use to teach my son. Heck, I could teach a class or two myself. I called NC A&T State U, where I'd worked a couple years. Couldn't arouse any interest. Could be IBM isn't marketing themselves very strenuously. Could be they're not losing market share and don't need to. I don't know. But it sounds to me like they're doing ~something~ at any rate. But as far as I can tell, the colleges have this notion that mainframes are out of date, and can't get out of that mindset or notice the facts. --- -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:54 When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message:
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the material. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, June 9, 2020, 7:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:53:51 +, Farley, Peter wrote: >You're probably correct about the academic mindset and IBM's failure to >successfully market to them that the mainframe CAN do all the "cool" things >they perceive as the latest-and-greatest-idea(s), and is actively "keeping up" >with the best of those ideas. > Yes, but JCL. JCL is to programming as Roman numerals are to arithmetic. And EBCDIC. "Doesn't play well with others." >Add to that the opensoource mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" >and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company >perspective. > >The 20th century "80% discount" that IBM offered to academic institutions >pre-consent-decree would today probably be laughed right out of the Bursar's >or Treasurer's office. 20% of too-much-already is a lot more than they pay >for the little hardware beasts and the nothing they pay for the software that >runs on them. > >It's a tough sell now. Would have been worlds easier if addressed >intelligently back then and continued into this century. > >It was an IBM chairman who declared o investors that "IBM will never be in a >low-margin business". They are getting what they asked for. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
JCL: I used to complain about JCL's arcane and in some cases backward syntax. I mean, "COND=(0,LT,step.procstep)" - who made that up? But somehow over the years I've made my peace with JCL. It is what it is. And I would have done no better, back then. EBCDIC: A couple of years ago, when I was employed by a small mainframe security consulting company, a client came to them asking for help with a project to create a security product that would reside on a distributed platform but handle security on the mainframe. They were going to develop it for a client that was using Top Secret, but it could have been any of the three. These folks didn't know mainframes, which is why they hired my employers, who assigned me to the project. I said they "didn't know mainframes"; let's start with the fact that they didn't know about EBCDIC. But that's no problem, right? There are lots of things one can do to translate between EBCDIC and ASCII. In the process of working on this project I wrote, my very own self, a socket server that would handle both ASCII and EBCDIC clients. (I mention this because I'd never done any such thing before, and I was inordinately pleased with the fact that I could do anything so cool. Those of you who've done hundreds of those and take it for granted, please don't burst my bubble.) Then they discovered the whole issue of 3270 emulation. And I probably wasn't helping by trying to explain the complexities of mainframe security at about the same time. The client went away to think about the communications issue, and somehow they never came back; the project never went anywhere after that. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Always look a gift horse in the mouth. It may have hoof-and-mouth disease. -Bob Bridges, 1977 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 19:18 > Yes, but JCL. JCL is to programming as Roman numerals are to arithmetic. And EBCDIC. "Doesn't play well with others." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
My pet peeve is the default for SPACE; "Absolute track not available" is not a user friendly error message for forgetting to specify SPACE. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" JCL: I used to complain about JCL's arcane and in some cases backward syntax. I mean, "COND=(0,LT,step.procstep)" - who made that up? But somehow over the years I've made my peace with JCL. It is what it is. And I would have done no better, back then. EBCDIC: A couple of years ago, when I was employed by a small mainframe security consulting company, a client came to them asking for help with a project to create a security product that would reside on a distributed platform but handle security on the mainframe. They were going to develop it for a client that was using Top Secret, but it could have been any of the three. These folks didn't know mainframes, which is why they hired my employers, who assigned me to the project. I said they "didn't know mainframes"; let's start with the fact that they didn't know about EBCDIC. But that's no problem, right? There are lots of things one can do to translate between EBCDIC and ASCII. In the process of working on this project I wrote, my very own self, a socket server that would handle both ASCII and EBCDIC clients. (I mention this because I'd never done any such thing before, and I was inordinately pleased with the fact that I could do anything so cool. Those of you who've done hundreds of those and take it for granted, please don't burst my bubble.) Then they discovered the whole issue of 3270 emulation. And I probably wasn't helping by trying to explain the complexities of mainframe security at about the same time. The client went away to think about the communications issue, and somehow they never came back; the project never went anywhere after that. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Always look a gift horse in the mouth. It may have hoof-and-mouth disease. -Bob Bridges, 1977 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 19:18 > Yes, but JCL. JCL is to programming as Roman numerals are to arithmetic. And EBCDIC. "Doesn't play well with others." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
IBM used to offer HESC for VM .edus. There were different tiers but it was very cheap. We used it until they quit offering it. Well it's a long story IBM just stuck it's head in the ground and let the *nix assimilate. In a message dated 6/9/2020 2:22:17 PM Central Standard Time, t...@tombrennansoftware.com writes: I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on one volume, then proceed through the rest, and run out volumes despite lots of space in the storage group. They didn't want to reallocate, so I suggested they migrate and recall the dataset. Then the existing space would be in 1 extent on 1 volume and plenty of extents and volumes to extend onto. The problem started going away after that. Would the new 1st extent on the first volume from the recall become the default 1st allocation on subsequent volumes? On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > My pet peeve is the default for SPACE; "Absolute track not available" is not > a user friendly error message for forgetting to specify SPACE. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:33 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > JCL: I used to complain about JCL's arcane and in some cases backward syntax. > I mean, "COND=(0,LT,step.procstep)" - who made that up? But somehow over > the years I've made my peace with JCL. It is what it is. And I would have > done no better, back then. > > EBCDIC: A couple of years ago, when I was employed by a small mainframe > security consulting company, a client came to them asking for help with a > project to create a security product that would reside on a distributed > platform but handle security on the mainframe. They were going to develop it > for a client that was using Top Secret, but it could have been any of the > three. These folks didn't know mainframes, which is why they hired my > employers, who assigned me to the project. > > I said they "didn't know mainframes"; let's start with the fact that they > didn't know about EBCDIC. But that's no problem, right? There are lots of > things one can do to translate between EBCDIC and ASCII. In the process of > working on this project I wrote, my very own self, a socket server that would > handle both ASCII and EBCDIC clients. (I mention this because I'd never done > any such thing before, and I was inordinately pleased with the fact that I > could do anything so cool. Those of you who've done hundreds of those and > take it for granted, please don't burst my bubble.) > > Then they discovered the whole issue of 3270 emulation. And I probably > wasn't helping by trying to explain the complexities of mainframe security at > about the same time. The client went away to think about the communications > issue, and somehow they never came back; the project never went anywhere > after that. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* Always look a gift horse in the mouth. It may have hoof-and-mouth > disease. -Bob Bridges, 1977 */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 19:18 > > > Yes, but JCL. JCL is to programming as Roman numerals are to arithmetic. > > And EBCDIC. "Doesn't play well with others." > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Appropriate tagline: --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Most people thought [in 2000] that Web content should somehow be free, a hopelessly naïve ideology known today as dot-communism....Dot-communism has been discarded along with its political counterpart, as users find that the adjective free means, as it always does, paid for by someone else, who insists on getting it back one way or another. -David S Platt, "Introducing Microsoft .NET, Third Edition", 2003 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:16 I wish. GMU is using proprietary e-mail software and no longer allows access via POP3 or IMAP4. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:53 PM Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one -Bill Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Johnson Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the material. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
IBM are supporting university training in Mainframe in a hands-off manner. A friend of mine has just run a COBOL course at a North Queensland university. The mainframe used for classes was the Marist system. The customers were a large Australian Bank and a territory government employer. It seems that some big organisations here in Australia are not exiting the mainframe as quickly as they envisaged and having pensioned off the older mainframes, they are in a pickle. I also ran courses a few years ago at Canberra University. We offered a Degree and Masters level units. COBOL, DB2, CICS were the predominant items with some z/VM. The mainframe environment was supplied by IBM on the Dallas RDP setup. All my students on the Masters class were from overseas, China and India. One Chinese student was very good, I would have employed him On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bob Bridges wrote: > LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I > still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one > -Bill Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 > > I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which > contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more > research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe > piece. The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, > and sites like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to > monetize the material. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Wayne V. Bickerdike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Software development is not a zero sum game. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Appropriate tagline: --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Most people thought [in 2000] that Web content should somehow be “free,” a hopelessly naïve ideology known today as “dot-communism.”...Dot-communism has been discarded along with its political counterpart, as users find that the adjective “free” means, as it always does, “paid for by someone else,” who insists on getting it back one way or another. -David S Platt, "Introducing Microsoft .NET, Third Edition", 2003 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:16 I wish. GMU is using proprietary e-mail software and no longer allows access via POP3 or IMAP4. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:53 PM Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I’d be honored. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 3:22 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one -Bill Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Johnson Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the material. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Would be more clearly stated with either "journalism" -> "journalists" , or alternatively with "one" -> "a journalist" -- unless the whole intent is to use poetic license to cause initial puzzlement followed by "oh, that's what was meant". JC Ewing On 6/9/20 11:55 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I > still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one -Bill > Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 > > I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which > contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more > research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites > like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the > material. > > ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
My Fortune 500 employer got off their mainframes by using SaaS vendors for most of the big BICARSA applications that ran on their mainframes. What back end those SaaS vendors use is anybody's guess. They also decided in the case of some applications that they would move to Intel hardware based solutions running Windows or Linux. They eventually had to state "we don't care about data integrity". Sure enough it was not long after that I got a marketing letter that said "Thanks for being a loyal customer since 1900." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
:) this reminds me of another Fortune 500 aerospace company i worked for, the new engineering director didn't want to spend the funds to upgrade the CADCAM 3090-400 to a 3090-600 . he decided to move the application to a pool of RS/6000's for the application and data, a new ATM network definition and an RS/6000 on every desktop for the engineers, that solution performed so badly we found most engineers would attempt to login to the RS/6000 wait a couple minutes then log back on to the mainframe system. another issue was software updates, at the time very time consuming, by the time the last desktop RS/6000 was upgraded it as time to start over again, kinda like the guys who paint the golden gate bridge, once you're done, time to start at the beginning ") Carmen Vitullo - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Quay" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 9:08:41 AM Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" My Fortune 500 employer got off their mainframes by using SaaS vendors for most of the big BICARSA applications that ran on their mainframes. What back end those SaaS vendors use is anybody's guess. They also decided in the case of some applications that they would move to Intel hardware based solutions running Windows or Linux. They eventually had to state "we don't care about data integrity". Sure enough it was not long after that I got a marketing letter that said "Thanks for being a loyal customer since 1900." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Or, you could just know that journalism is made up of journalists. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:22 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: Would be more clearly stated with either "journalism" -> "journalists" , or alternatively with "one" -> "a journalist" -- unless the whole intent is to use poetic license to cause initial puzzlement followed by "oh, that's what was meant". JC Ewing On 6/9/20 11:55 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I > still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one -Bill > Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 > > I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which > contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more > research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites > like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the > material. > > ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I wish. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 10:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Or, you could just know that journalism is made up of journalists. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:22 AM, Joel C. Ewing wrote: Would be more clearly stated with either "journalism" -> "journalists" , or alternatively with "one" -> "a journalist" -- unless the whole intent is to use poetic license to cause initial puzzlement followed by "oh, that's what was meant". JC Ewing On 6/9/20 11:55 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I > still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one -Bill > Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 > > I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which > contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more > research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites > like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the > material. > > ... -- Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Is no-one aware of Master the Mainframe competition for students? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_the_Mainframe_Contest And the Academic Initiative, under which the classes mentioned by Wayne are run (Wayne and I worked on these together back in the day): https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education These have been running for more than a decade now and provide a completely cost free access for students to mainframes. In the case of the MtM contest, you don't even really need to be enrolled in an IT related course at a fee paying institute - my 18 year old son can now write COBOL, JCL and REXX after completing last years contest. And in respect of the OP, the 'modernisation' moniker - disclaimer, I also currently work for one of those mainframe modernisation companies. Yes, they do mean replacing your mainframe with x86, and generally they also focus on the C word - Cloud and in many cases some kind of language transposition, i.e. COBOL to Java. Interestingly my employer also sponsored a survey, and while we didn't get the hyped 100% 'want off the platform' result, it does seem there are significant pressures within many companies to see the mainframe replaced or at the very least drastically reduced in cost. The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. While a single vendor owns the hardware and software stack (think Apple), they can charge whatever they want regardless of the value. There are several technological approaches to the replacement push, some are smarter than others. Like most things in IT, it comes down to factors such as time and money more than technology. Cheers - Mike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Not sure what you mean. I ~think~ I agree (unless I misunderstood you) - but software development still costs time and effort, and no matter who the developer is he has to eat. If he chooses to give away some of his work, that's fine and I accept gratefully; but it means he's earning enough elsewhere that he can afford to give away part of his time. So even in this case, "free" means "paid for by someone else". But yeah, there are some people who don't insist on getting it back one way or another, at least part of the time. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Nothing is as bad as it seems; nothing is as good as it seems. -a farmer's saying */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 07:27 Software development is not a zero sum game. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:53 AM /* Most people thought [in 2000] that Web content should somehow be free, a hopelessly naïve ideology known today as dot-communism....Dot-communism has been discarded along with its political counterpart, as users find that the adjective free means, as it always does, paid for by someone else, who insists on getting it back one way or another. -David S Platt, "Introducing Microsoft .NET, Third Edition", 2003 */ -Original Message- From: Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:16 I wish. GMU is using proprietary e-mail software and no longer allows access via POP3 or IMAP4. From: Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:53 PM Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I thought about that. But for some reason I kind of like it in its present form; it has a certain slapdash irreverence. We'll see whether I still feel that way in a few months. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* A child's greatest source of security today is not only knowing 'my mom loves me' and 'my dad loves me,' but also that Mom and Dad love each other. If we are serious about renewing fatherhood, we must be serious about renewing marriage. -George W Bush, 2001 */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 08:47 Would be more clearly stated with either "journalism" -> "journalists" , or alternatively with "one" -> "a journalist" -- unless the whole intent is to use poetic license to cause initial puzzlement followed by "oh, that's what was meant". --- On 6/9/20 11:55 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > LOL - you may just have made my tagline file, Bill. We'll see whether I > still like it well enough tomorrow. Like this: > > /* The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one > -Bill Johnson in the listserv IBM-MAIN */ > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Bill Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:20 > > I sent the author of this hit piece a few real journalistic pieces which > contradicted her claims. She responded kindly and stated she would do more > research (or any research in my opinion) if she did another mainframe piece. > The problem with journalism today is everyone thinks they are one, and sites > like tech republic are only interested in clicks & eyeballs to monetize the > material. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
> The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. The actual cost, the creative accounting cost or the cost promised by the salesman? How often is there an honest evaluation of the costs for various options, including downstream costs and benefits? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Mike Cairns [m...@mikecairns.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Is no-one aware of Master the Mainframe competition for students? https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xW1S4133tFblLxTT6mEtsV0KVTiWfQUsHsD2J-AueeybtB5mAkg7WOhMuaUpkBTmOVfAV4rsloDvt8Fwvm5nIWqUrzWy26pX9SXCWZfOPHOoP5KpYMAfDjGEZLaej658t9DxHBrDNFxHQogsanzKiVC7f5Vqh4buo5fGQsWH-0rsRJ_QVRoUGtjsQiKY-qPYRNjh_fyoinGN45S0FsYw9IFR1FUSSd6r_GHE-d53AWdOuuLYI4gRxGIWDgKxATnUCM6mpl1LHBRBVIVLhWs6AXbyKLSTUnchjPUCETzdXoXjdUhtawbzJ34e9OyXlD_u3w9W5AYYxm_IU4oTMxIRMShS_aNp1-HdnIvFWIc3iwsbwp2SZVqO9jZnwpmnxTiJCVZ0ksiM6spAOJ6D5Vdtk_5y_3QMYlxOc3EZeQ1xIh2W6UM4HjWpbkERcvkfhrTm/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaster_the_Mainframe_Contest And the Academic Initiative, under which the classes mentioned by Wayne are run (Wayne and I worked on these together back in the day): https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education These have been running for more than a decade now and provide a completely cost free access for students to mainframes. In the case of the MtM contest, you don't even really need to be enrolled in an IT related course at a fee paying institute - my 18 year old son can now write COBOL, JCL and REXX after completing last years contest. And in respect of the OP, the 'modernisation' moniker - disclaimer, I also currently work for one of those mainframe modernisation companies. Yes, they do mean replacing your mainframe with x86, and generally they also focus on the C word - Cloud and in many cases some kind of language transposition, i.e. COBOL to Java. Interestingly my employer also sponsored a survey, and while we didn't get the hyped 100% 'want off the platform' result, it does seem there are significant pressures within many companies to see the mainframe replaced or at the very least drastically reduced in cost. The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. While a single vendor owns the hardware and software stack (think Apple), they can charge whatever they want regardless of the value. There are several technological approaches to the replacement push, some are smarter than others. Like most things in IT, it comes down to factors such as time and money more than technology. Cheers - Mike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Essentially, a zero sum gave is one in which there is a fixed amount of money, so any gain must be at the other players' expense and there are no "win-win" strategies. Open software development is not like that. The big players are large corporations that support it becaause doing so increases their downstream profitability. As an example, whenever I got a program from, e.g., the CBT tape, and enhanced it, I didn't keep the enhancement as the private version of my installation, but sent it back to the author. In those cases where the author chose to include it in his version, I had less of a support burden, e.g., refitting my changes into newer versions. There is also the issue of support. When a company has staff familiar with the open source code, they are in a better position to sell support services. They win, the open source community wins and their customers win. If IBM invests billions in open source software, I have no issue with them earning it back selling services; in fact, I am glad of it. Whom does that harm? "I won't bail; the hole is in your end of the boat." -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Not sure what you mean. I ~think~ I agree (unless I misunderstood you) - but software development still costs time and effort, and no matter who the developer is he has to eat. If he chooses to give away some of his work, that's fine and I accept gratefully; but it means he's earning enough elsewhere that he can afford to give away part of his time. So even in this case, "free" means "paid for by someone else". But yeah, there are some people who don't insist on getting it back one way or another, at least part of the time. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Nothing is as bad as it seems; nothing is as good as it seems. -a farmer's saying */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 07:27 Software development is not a zero sum game. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 12:53 AM /* Most people thought [in 2000] that Web content should somehow be “free,” a hopelessly naïve ideology known today as “dot-communism.”...Dot-communism has been discarded along with its political counterpart, as users find that the adjective “free” means, as it always does, “paid for by someone else,” who insists on getting it back one way or another. -David S Platt, "Introducing Microsoft .NET, Third Edition", 2003 */ -Original Message- From: Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 20:16 I wish. GMU is using proprietary e-mail software and no longer allows access via POP3 or IMAP4. From: Farley, Peter x23353 [peter.far...@broadridge.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 5:53 PM Add to that the open-source mindset that software SHOULD BY RIGHT be "free" and you have a tough market to break into (again) from a for-profit company perspective. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: "I have a very basic one to complain about: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? Of course IMS has some that are even worse. Sometimes I just get something like: USER COMPLETION CODE= without any message at all. The first time I ran in to it it took me a heck of a time to figure out I need to look in the IMS manual to find out what the error was. For all I could tell it was a user application error, but I couldn't see what. Now all of the other developers on our VSE to z/OS conversion team just ask me what the errors are, because trying to find them in the manuals is too often too painful. Hopefully I'll get them trained some day! I've got to say, coming from VSE their error messages are, in general, much better. Of course as a developer I hate dealing with creating error messages for my own apps, so I can understand why IBM has such issues... :-)" Things have not improved much, if it all, in this regard in the last ten years. 🙁 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on one volume, then proceed through the rest, and run out volumes despite lots of space in the storage group. They didn't want to reallocate, so I suggested they migrate and recall the dataset. Then the existing space would be in 1 extent on 1 volume and plenty of extents and volumes to extend onto. The problem started going away after that. Would the new 1st extent on the first volume from the recall become the default 1st allocation on subsequent volumes? On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > My pet peeve is the default for SPACE; "Absolute track not available" is not > a user friendly error message for forgetting to specify SPACE. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:33 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > JCL: I used to complain about JCL's arcane and in some cases backward syntax. > I mean, "COND=(0,LT,step.procstep)" - who made that up? But somehow over > the years I've made my peace with JCL. It is what it is. And I would have > done no better, back then. > > EBCDIC: A couple of years ago, when I was employed by a small mainframe > security consulting company, a client came to them asking for help with a > project to create a security product that would reside on a distributed > platform but handle security on the mainframe. They were going to develop it > for a client that was using Top Secret, but it could have been any of the > three. These folks didn't know mainframes, which is why they hired my > employers, who assigned me to the project. > > I said they "didn't know mainframes"; let's start with the fact that they > didn't know about EBCDIC. But that's no problem, right? There are lots of > things one can do to translate between EBCDIC and ASCII. In the process of > working on this project I wrote, my very own self, a socket server that would > handle both ASCII and EBCDIC clients. (I mention this because I'd never done > any such thing before, and I was inordinately pleased with the fact that I > could do anything so cool. Those of you who've done hundreds of those and > take it for granted, please don't burst my bubble.) > > Then they discovered the whole issue of 3270 emulation. And I probably > wasn't helping by trying to explain the complexities of mainframe security at > about the same time. The client went away to think about the communications > issue, and somehow they never came back; the project never went anywhere > after that. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* Always look a gift horse in the mouth. It may have hoof-and-mouth > disease. -Bob Bridges, 1977 */ >
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Yep! And I remember dynamic allocation errors where the user basically just gets the SVC99 return/reason code, and the only way to figure out what happened is to look it up in the programming manual - not even a message manual. So here's an example for you: If the BLDL gets a non-zero return code, should the program show "MEMBER NOT FOUND", which would probably be correct 99% of the time, or should we worry about the 1% where the message coded by the programmer was a good guess but still throws you off track? These cases actually show off the beauty of z/OS abends, in my opinion. If a macro/svc abends when it gets such a failure, the SVC99 or BLDL programmer doesn't have to code anything and we let IBM handle the error message, reason codes, and documentation. On 6/10/2020 10:02 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Are you talking about messages from dynamic allocation, or about messages from the caller. The DAIRFAIL routine is avilable for formatting error codes from DAIR and DYNALLOC, and DYNALLOC has an option to generate a message; if an application doesn't use those facilities, but instead displays a raw error and reason code, blame the application, not dynamic allocation. Oh, well, those facilities have only been around for a few decades, so maybe they're too new. :-( -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:29 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep! And I remember dynamic allocation errors where the user basically just gets the SVC99 return/reason code, and the only way to figure out what happened is to look it up in the programming manual - not even a message manual. So here's an example for you: If the BLDL gets a non-zero return code, should the program show "MEMBER NOT FOUND", which would probably be correct 99% of the time, or should we worry about the 1% where the message coded by the programmer was a good guess but still throws you off track? These cases actually show off the beauty of z/OS abends, in my opinion. If a macro/svc abends when it gets such a failure, the SVC99 or BLDL programmer doesn't have to code anything and we let IBM handle the error message, reason codes, and documentation. On 6/10/2020 10:02 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote: > DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ > > This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS > library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I > really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I worked for a company whose management only knew initial cost. So they would always buy the less expensive product. Eventually they’d wind up spending more after additional costs to implement the less expensive software or hardware. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:11 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. The actual cost, the creative accounting cost or the cost promised by the salesman? How often is there an honest evaluation of the costs for various options, including downstream costs and benefits? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Mike Cairns [m...@mikecairns.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Is no-one aware of Master the Mainframe competition for students? https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xW1S4133tFblLxTT6mEtsV0KVTiWfQUsHsD2J-AueeybtB5mAkg7WOhMuaUpkBTmOVfAV4rsloDvt8Fwvm5nIWqUrzWy26pX9SXCWZfOPHOoP5KpYMAfDjGEZLaej658t9DxHBrDNFxHQogsanzKiVC7f5Vqh4buo5fGQsWH-0rsRJ_QVRoUGtjsQiKY-qPYRNjh_fyoinGN45S0FsYw9IFR1FUSSd6r_GHE-d53AWdOuuLYI4gRxGIWDgKxATnUCM6mpl1LHBRBVIVLhWs6AXbyKLSTUnchjPUCETzdXoXjdUhtawbzJ34e9OyXlD_u3w9W5AYYxm_IU4oTMxIRMShS_aNp1-HdnIvFWIc3iwsbwp2SZVqO9jZnwpmnxTiJCVZ0ksiM6spAOJ6D5Vdtk_5y_3QMYlxOc3EZeQ1xIh2W6UM4HjWpbkERcvkfhrTm/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaster_the_Mainframe_Contest And the Academic Initiative, under which the classes mentioned by Wayne are run (Wayne and I worked on these together back in the day): https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education These have been running for more than a decade now and provide a completely cost free access for students to mainframes. In the case of the MtM contest, you don't even really need to be enrolled in an IT related course at a fee paying institute - my 18 year old son can now write COBOL, JCL and REXX after completing last years contest. And in respect of the OP, the 'modernisation' moniker - disclaimer, I also currently work for one of those mainframe modernisation companies. Yes, they do mean replacing your mainframe with x86, and generally they also focus on the C word - Cloud and in many cases some kind of language transposition, i.e. COBOL to Java. Interestingly my employer also sponsored a survey, and while we didn't get the hyped 100% 'want off the platform' result, it does seem there are significant pressures within many companies to see the mainframe replaced or at the very least drastically reduced in cost. The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. While a single vendor owns the hardware and software stack (think Apple), they can charge whatever they want regardless of the value. There are several technological approaches to the replacement push, some are smarter than others. Like most things in IT, it comes down to factors such as time and money more than technology. Cheers - Mike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
The problem with that message is not that it mentions BLDL, but that it fails to mention other relevant data. At a minimum, what was the ddname and what was the return code. Ideally I'd like secondary messages listing the libraries in the concatenation. A user ABEND without a message is hard to justify. Are you sure that it wasn't in the joblog? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: "I have a very basic one to complain about: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? Of course IMS has some that are even worse. Sometimes I just get something like: USER COMPLETION CODE= without any message at all. The first time I ran in to it it took me a heck of a time to figure out I need to look in the IMS manual to find out what the error was. For all I could tell it was a user application error, but I couldn't see what. Now all of the other developers on our VSE to z/OS conversion team just ask me what the errors are, because trying to find them in the manuals is too often too painful. Hopefully I'll get them trained some day! I've got to say, coming from VSE their error messages are, in general, much better. Of course as a developer I hate dealing with creating error messages for my own apps, so I can understand why IBM has such issues... :-)" Things have not improved much, if it all, in this regard in the last ten years. 🙁 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on one volume, then proceed through the rest, and run out volumes despite lots of space in the storage group. They didn't want to reallocate, so I suggested they migrate and recall the dataset. Then the existing space would be in 1 extent on 1 volume and plenty of extents and volumes to extend onto. The problem started going away after that. Would the new 1st extent on the first volume from the recall become the default 1st allocation on subsequent volumes? On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > My pet peeve is the default for SPACE; "Absolute track not available" is not > a user friendly error message for forgetting to specify SPACE. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:33 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > JCL: I used to complain about JCL's arcane and in some cases backward syntax. > I mean, "COND=(0,LT,step.procstep)" - who made that up? But somehow over > the years I've made my peace with JCL. It is what it is. And I would have > done no better, back then. > > EBCDIC: A couple of years ago, when I was employed by a small mainframe > security consulting company, a client came to them asking for help with a > project to create a security product that would reside on a distributed > platform but handle security on the mainframe. They were going to develop it > for a client that was using Top Secret, but it could have been any of the > three. These folks didn't know mainframes, which is why they hired my > employers, who assigned me to the project. > > I said they "didn't know mainframes"; let's start with the fact that they > didn't know about EBCDIC. But that's no problem, right? There are lots of > things one can do to translate between EBCDIC and ASCII. In the process of > working on this project I wrote, my very own self, a socket server that would > handle both ASCII and EBCDIC clients. (I mention this because I'd never done > any such thing before, and I was inordinately pleased with the fact that I > could do anything so cool.
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
"Après moi le déluge." -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bill Johnson [0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:45 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" I worked for a company whose management only knew initial cost. So they would always buy the less expensive product. Eventually they’d wind up spending more after additional costs to implement the less expensive software or hardware. Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:11 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. The actual cost, the creative accounting cost or the cost promised by the salesman? How often is there an honest evaluation of the costs for various options, including downstream costs and benefits? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Mike Cairns [m...@mikecairns.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 10:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Is no-one aware of Master the Mainframe competition for students? https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xW1S4133tFblLxTT6mEtsV0KVTiWfQUsHsD2J-AueeybtB5mAkg7WOhMuaUpkBTmOVfAV4rsloDvt8Fwvm5nIWqUrzWy26pX9SXCWZfOPHOoP5KpYMAfDjGEZLaej658t9DxHBrDNFxHQogsanzKiVC7f5Vqh4buo5fGQsWH-0rsRJ_QVRoUGtjsQiKY-qPYRNjh_fyoinGN45S0FsYw9IFR1FUSSd6r_GHE-d53AWdOuuLYI4gRxGIWDgKxATnUCM6mpl1LHBRBVIVLhWs6AXbyKLSTUnchjPUCETzdXoXjdUhtawbzJ34e9OyXlD_u3w9W5AYYxm_IU4oTMxIRMShS_aNp1-HdnIvFWIc3iwsbwp2SZVqO9jZnwpmnxTiJCVZ0ksiM6spAOJ6D5Vdtk_5y_3QMYlxOc3EZeQ1xIh2W6UM4HjWpbkERcvkfhrTm/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaster_the_Mainframe_Contest And the Academic Initiative, under which the classes mentioned by Wayne are run (Wayne and I worked on these together back in the day): https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education These have been running for more than a decade now and provide a completely cost free access for students to mainframes. In the case of the MtM contest, you don't even really need to be enrolled in an IT related course at a fee paying institute - my 18 year old son can now write COBOL, JCL and REXX after completing last years contest. And in respect of the OP, the 'modernisation' moniker - disclaimer, I also currently work for one of those mainframe modernisation companies. Yes, they do mean replacing your mainframe with x86, and generally they also focus on the C word - Cloud and in many cases some kind of language transposition, i.e. COBOL to Java. Interestingly my employer also sponsored a survey, and while we didn't get the hyped 100% 'want off the platform' result, it does seem there are significant pressures within many companies to see the mainframe replaced or at the very least drastically reduced in cost. The real problem is nothing to do with technology, and all to do with cost. While a single vendor owns the hardware and software stack (think Apple), they can charge whatever they want regardless of the value. There are several technological approaches to the replacement push, some are smarter than others. Like most things in IT, it comes down to factors such as time and money more than technology. Cheers - Mike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:02:40 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote: >Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: > >"I have a very basic one to complain about: > >DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ > >This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS >library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I >really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? > The practice was established over a half century ago when every programmer could be presumed to have at least a superficial knowledge of the entire OS/360 reference library. And storage was too precious to support elaborate messages. That time has passed. The practice persists. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I can't really remember, but I think it was when R15 was not zero maybe S99ERROR/S99INFO were displayed in hex. Seems like that was pretty common at the time (1990's?) because I remember multiple times having to go to the programming manual to find the SVC99 codes. There were a few (1708?) that I knew without having to look them up. On 6/10/2020 10:39 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Are you talking about messages from dynamic allocation, or about messages from the caller. The DAIRFAIL routine is avilable for formatting error codes from DAIR and DYNALLOC, and DYNALLOC has an option to generate a message; if an application doesn't use those facilities, but instead displays a raw error and reason code, blame the application, not dynamic allocation. Oh, well, those facilities have only been around for a few decades, so maybe they're too new. :-( -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:29 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep! And I remember dynamic allocation errors where the user basically just gets the SVC99 return/reason code, and the only way to figure out what happened is to look it up in the programming manual - not even a message manual. So here's an example for you: If the BLDL gets a non-zero return code, should the program show "MEMBER NOT FOUND", which would probably be correct 99% of the time, or should we worry about the 1% where the message coded by the programmer was a good guess but still throws you off track? These cases actually show off the beauty of z/OS abends, in my opinion. If a macro/svc abends when it gets such a failure, the SVC99 or BLDL programmer doesn't have to code anything and we let IBM handle the error message, reason codes, and documentation. On 6/10/2020 10:02 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
DAIRFAIL was available in the 1980s; I don't recall whether it was available in the late 1970s, and bitsavers doesn't have the manuals I would need to check. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 3:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" I can't really remember, but I think it was when R15 was not zero maybe S99ERROR/S99INFO were displayed in hex. Seems like that was pretty common at the time (1990's?) because I remember multiple times having to go to the programming manual to find the SVC99 codes. There were a few (1708?) that I knew without having to look them up. On 6/10/2020 10:39 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Are you talking about messages from dynamic allocation, or about messages > from the caller. The DAIRFAIL routine is avilable for formatting error codes > from DAIR and DYNALLOC, and DYNALLOC has an option to generate a message; if > an application doesn't use those facilities, but instead displays a raw error > and reason code, blame the application, not dynamic allocation. > > Oh, well, those facilities have only been around for a few decades, so maybe > they're too new. :-( > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:29 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > Yep! And I remember dynamic allocation errors where the user basically > just gets the SVC99 return/reason code, and the only way to figure out > what happened is to look it up in the programming manual - not even a > message manual. > > So here's an example for you: If the BLDL gets a non-zero return code, > should the program show "MEMBER NOT FOUND", which would > probably be correct 99% of the time, or should we worry about the 1% > where the message coded by the programmer was a good guess but still > throws you off track? > > These cases actually show off the beauty of z/OS abends, in my opinion. > If a macro/svc abends when it gets such a failure, the SVC99 or BLDL > programmer doesn't have to code anything and we let IBM handle the error > message, reason codes, and documentation. > > On 6/10/2020 10:02 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote: >> DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ >> >> This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS >> library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I >> really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Here are all of the possibly relevant parts from the JESMSGLG for a similar occurrence that I just caused. +*DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --ABCDEFG IEA995I SYMPTOM DUMP OUTPUT 830 USER COMPLETION CODE=0929 TIME=10.52.44 SEQ=18497 CPU= ASID=0038 PSW AT TIME OF ERROR 078D1000 9012762C ILC 2 INTC 0D ACTIVE MODULE ADDRESS=_1011A000 OFFSET=D62C NAME=DFSDLBL0 DATA AT PSW 10127626 - D234181F 0A0DD71C D200D200 GR 0: 1: 83A1 2: 7660 3: 84B0 4: 0005D060 5: 7658 6: 10126358 7: 0005D060 8: 00019928 9: 00019F68 A: B: 0001 C: 1011C048 D: 101260B0 E: 90127E9E F: 83A1 END OF SYMPTOM DUMP DFS627I IMS RTM CLEANUP ( EOT ) COMPLETE FOR JS DDADMP .PROC01 .STEP01 ,RC=00 IEF450I DDADMP STEP01 PROC01 - ABEND=S000 U0929 REASON= 832 There are no additional DDs beyond this and the standard JESJCL and JESYSMSG which have no additional relevant data. Of course if you look up the error in the manual it does provide slightly more useful information. DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER -- member name Explanation ~~~ A BLDL was issued for the named member. The member was not found in the DBD or PSB library. System action ~ Abend 0929 is issued if batch DL/I was running. ACBGEN processing continues if the ACBGEN utility was being run. Programmer response ~~~ Correct the error in the appropriate library, and rerun the program. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" The problem with that message is not that it mentions BLDL, but that it fails to mention other relevant data. At a minimum, what was the ddname and what was the return code. Ideally I'd like secondary messages listing the libraries in the concatenation. A user ABEND without a message is hard to justify. Are you sure that it wasn't in the joblog? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: "I have a very basic one to complain about: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? Of course IMS has some that are even worse. Sometimes I just get something like: USER COMPLETION CODE= without any message at all. The first time I ran in to it it took me a heck of a time to figure out I need to look in the IMS manual to find out what the error was. For all I could tell it was a user application error, but I couldn't see what. Now all of the other developers on our VSE to z/OS conversion team just ask me what the errors are, because trying to find them in the manuals is too often too painful. Hopefully I'll get them trained some day! I've got to say, coming from VSE their error messages are, in general, much better. Of course as a developer I hate dealing with creating error messages for my own apps, so I can understand why IBM has such issues... :-)" Things have not improved much, if it all, in this regard in the last ten years. 🙁 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on one volume, then proceed through the rest, and run out volumes despite lots of space in the storage group. They didn't want to reallocate, so I suggested they migrate and recall the dataset. Then the existing space would be in 1 extent on 1 volume and plenty of extents and volumes to extend onto. The problem started going away after that. Would the new 1st extent on the first volume from the recall become the default 1st allocation on subsequent volumes? On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:48 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > > My pet peeve is the default for SPACE; "Absolute track not available" is not > a user friendly error message for forgetting to specify SPACE. > > > -- > S
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
At least in that case you can hopefully reproduce the error :) It's the one-time lost error messages that as a support person, you sometimes have to say, "Oh well" My favorite is when someone is repeatedly getting an error, but when they call me over and without doing anything differently, the error magically goes away. I always said this was because the computer knows that I simply won't stand for such insubordination and it knows that I know where the off switch is. On 6/11/2020 9:42 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: My favorite is a marketing guy I was supporting. He called for my help with some problem that had occurred - I don't remember what exactly, probably with a DYL-280II program that he'd written with my help - and, as always, I asked him what the error message had said. "Oh, it said some damn thing" he retorted. I think he was laughing at himself as he said it, but he said it. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I call that the "GTF effect"; the problem never manifests when I have diagnostic measures in place to capture failure data. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 1:29 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" At least in that case you can hopefully reproduce the error :) It's the one-time lost error messages that as a support person, you sometimes have to say, "Oh well" My favorite is when someone is repeatedly getting an error, but when they call me over and without doing anything differently, the error magically goes away. I always said this was because the computer knows that I simply won't stand for such insubordination and it knows that I know where the off switch is. On 6/11/2020 9:42 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > My favorite is a marketing guy I was supporting. He called for my help with > some problem that had occurred - I don't remember what exactly, probably with > a DYL-280II program that he'd written with my help - and, as always, I asked > him what the error message had said. "Oh, it said some damn thing" he > retorted. > > I think he was laughing at himself as he said it, but he said it. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
> DBD or PSB library. In a kinder, more gentle world, the message would tell you which. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 1:01 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here are all of the possibly relevant parts from the JESMSGLG for a similar occurrence that I just caused. +*DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --ABCDEFG IEA995I SYMPTOM DUMP OUTPUT 830 USER COMPLETION CODE=0929 TIME=10.52.44 SEQ=18497 CPU= ASID=0038 PSW AT TIME OF ERROR 078D1000 9012762C ILC 2 INTC 0D ACTIVE MODULE ADDRESS=_1011A000 OFFSET=D62C NAME=DFSDLBL0 DATA AT PSW 10127626 - D234181F 0A0DD71C D200D200 GR 0: 1: 83A1 2: 7660 3: 84B0 4: 0005D060 5: 7658 6: 10126358 7: 0005D060 8: 00019928 9: 00019F68 A: B: 0001 C: 1011C048 D: 101260B0 E: 90127E9E F: 83A1 END OF SYMPTOM DUMP DFS627I IMS RTM CLEANUP ( EOT ) COMPLETE FOR JS DDADMP .PROC01 .STEP01 ,RC=00 IEF450I DDADMP STEP01 PROC01 - ABEND=S000 U0929 REASON= 832 There are no additional DDs beyond this and the standard JESJCL and JESYSMSG which have no additional relevant data. Of course if you look up the error in the manual it does provide slightly more useful information. DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER -- member name Explanation ~~~ A BLDL was issued for the named member. The member was not found in the DBD or PSB library. System action ~ Abend 0929 is issued if batch DL/I was running. ACBGEN processing continues if the ACBGEN utility was being run. Programmer response ~~~ Correct the error in the appropriate library, and rerun the program. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" The problem with that message is not that it mentions BLDL, but that it fails to mention other relevant data. At a minimum, what was the ddname and what was the return code. Ideally I'd like secondary messages listing the libraries in the concatenation. A user ABEND without a message is hard to justify. Are you sure that it wasn't in the joblog? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: "I have a very basic one to complain about: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? Of course IMS has some that are even worse. Sometimes I just get something like: USER COMPLETION CODE= without any message at all. The first time I ran in to it it took me a heck of a time to figure out I need to look in the IMS manual to find out what the error was. For all I could tell it was a user application error, but I couldn't see what. Now all of the other developers on our VSE to z/OS conversion team just ask me what the errors are, because trying to find them in the manuals is too often too painful. Hopefully I'll get them trained some day! I've got to say, coming from VSE their error messages are, in general, much better. Of course as a developer I hate dealing with creating error messages for my own apps, so I can understand why IBM has such issues... :-)" Things have not improved much, if it all, in this regard in the last ten years. 🙁 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on one volume, then proceed through the rest, and run out volumes despite lots of space in the storage group. They didn't want to reallocate, so I suggested they migrate and recall the dataset. Then the existing space would be in 1 extent on 1 volume and plenty of exten
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
There's another factor in the Betamax vs. VHS struggle. I went into a department store to buy my first camcorder in the early 80s. I chose a Beta model. The sales guy said, "Most folks these days are buying VHS. You can only exchange tapes with the same technology. Pick out a VHS model. Take it home but don't open the box. Check with some friends and relatives to see what *they* have. If it's mostly Beta, then bring back the VHS and exchange it." I never went back. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of John McKown Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:14 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:21 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Y'all stop using logic and reason - this is an emotional issue that > the author and others are invested in and has nothing to do with IBM > effectively telling the world that the mainframe is dead based on all > the layoffs that have occurred over the last 20-25 years, or that IBM > continues to offload software development or outright sells IBM > software to other companies, or that IBM has bought into the Cloud and > has reduced their investment in developing z/OS, or . . . . > > And then there is the vast amounts of money to be made by replacing a > mainframe - I'm sure that those vendors offering those services only > have the best interests of the current mainframe users at heart. > > It's Beta vs VHS all over again > Beta lost due to marketing idiocy. It was superior to VHS, technically, but "overpriced" compared to VHS. So the consumer went with the inferior but more affordable VHS. You're right -- exactly like z/OS vs. Windows and zSeries vs. AMD/Intel. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
The telephone folks used to close tickets with CWT -- "cleared while testing." In other words, they could not reproduce. Another support favorite: Customer: You've got to help us. It's happening all the time. It's really killing us. We're dead in the water without a fix. Tech: Add a SYSUDUMP DD statement, reproduce the problem and send us the dump. Customer: Oh, well, we'll have to see. It's really hard to reproduce. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:30 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" At least in that case you can hopefully reproduce the error :) It's the one-time lost error messages that as a support person, you sometimes have to say, "Oh well" My favorite is when someone is repeatedly getting an error, but when they call me over and without doing anything differently, the error magically goes away. I always said this was because the computer knows that I simply won't stand for such insubordination and it knows that I know where the off switch is. On 6/11/2020 9:42 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > My favorite is a marketing guy I was supporting. He called for my help with > some problem that had occurred - I don't remember what exactly, probably with > a DYL-280II program that he'd written with my help - and, as always, I asked > him what the error message had said. "Oh, it said some damn thing" he > retorted. > > I think he was laughing at himself as he said it, but he said it. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:47:46 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I call that the "GTF effect"; the problem never manifests when I have >diagnostic measures in place to capture failure data. > GTF? Generalized Trace Facility? A colleague once used the term "Heisenberg effect" for a performance monitor that reported that most of the CPU time was being spent in the performance monitor. And I struggled with a vendor compiler when my program arithmetic checked in optimized mode but produced the result I intended in debug mode. Vendor support told me (correctly) that the construct I (tried to) use was documented as "unpredictable". WAD? On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:51:13 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> DBD or PSB library. > >In a kinder, more gentle world, the message would tell you which. > I consider "either-or" messages irresponsible. Even in the case where a single test and BC instruction may detect significantly different errors. More likely, middleware fails to distinguish or preserve distinct reason codes supplied by the base level. The M&C Reason explanations are rife with "either or". -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Apparently that world is not this world. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 11:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > DBD or PSB library. In a kinder, more gentle world, the message would tell you which. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 1:01 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here are all of the possibly relevant parts from the JESMSGLG for a similar occurrence that I just caused. +*DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --ABCDEFG IEA995I SYMPTOM DUMP OUTPUT 830 USER COMPLETION CODE=0929 TIME=10.52.44 SEQ=18497 CPU= ASID=0038 PSW AT TIME OF ERROR 078D1000 9012762C ILC 2 INTC 0D ACTIVE MODULE ADDRESS=_1011A000 OFFSET=D62C NAME=DFSDLBL0 DATA AT PSW 10127626 - D234181F 0A0DD71C D200D200 GR 0: 1: 83A1 2: 7660 3: 84B0 4: 0005D060 5: 7658 6: 10126358 7: 0005D060 8: 00019928 9: 00019F68 A: B: 0001 C: 1011C048 D: 101260B0 E: 90127E9E F: 83A1 END OF SYMPTOM DUMP DFS627I IMS RTM CLEANUP ( EOT ) COMPLETE FOR JS DDADMP .PROC01 .STEP01 ,RC=00 IEF450I DDADMP STEP01 PROC01 - ABEND=S000 U0929 REASON= 832 There are no additional DDs beyond this and the standard JESJCL and JESYSMSG which have no additional relevant data. Of course if you look up the error in the manual it does provide slightly more useful information. DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER -- member name Explanation ~~~ A BLDL was issued for the named member. The member was not found in the DBD or PSB library. System action ~ Abend 0929 is issued if batch DL/I was running. ACBGEN processing continues if the ACBGEN utility was being run. Programmer response ~~~ Correct the error in the appropriate library, and rerun the program. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 11:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" The problem with that message is not that it mentions BLDL, but that it fails to mention other relevant data. At a minimum, what was the ddname and what was the return code. Ideally I'd like secondary messages listing the libraries in the concatenation. A user ABEND without a message is hard to justify. Are you sure that it wasn't in the joblog? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 1:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: "I have a very basic one to complain about: DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? Of course IMS has some that are even worse. Sometimes I just get something like: USER COMPLETION CODE= without any message at all. The first time I ran in to it it took me a heck of a time to figure out I need to look in the IMS manual to find out what the error was. For all I could tell it was a user application error, but I couldn't see what. Now all of the other developers on our VSE to z/OS conversion team just ask me what the errors are, because trying to find them in the manuals is too often too painful. Hopefully I'll get them trained some day! I've got to say, coming from VSE their error messages are, in general, much better. Of course as a developer I hate dealing with creating error messages for my own apps, so I can understand why IBM has such issues... :-)" Things have not improved much, if it all, in this regard in the last ten years. 🙁 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Yep. We used to get a lot of errors for out of volumes in a storage groups, and the users would want us to add more volumes. For several calls I would point out that the data set had a very small primary and secondary space value. I would go through all the extents on o
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
? GTF? Generalized Trace Facility? Is there another GTF in z/OS? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 2:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:47:46 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I call that the "GTF effect"; the problem never manifests when I have >diagnostic measures in place to capture failure data. > GTF? Generalized Trace Facility? A colleague once used the term "Heisenberg effect" for a performance monitor that reported that most of the CPU time was being spent in the performance monitor. And I struggled with a vendor compiler when my program arithmetic checked in optimized mode but produced the result I intended in debug mode. Vendor support told me (correctly) that the construct I (tried to) use was documented as "unpredictable". WAD? On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:51:13 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> DBD or PSB library. > >In a kinder, more gentle world, the message would tell you which. > I consider "either-or" messages irresponsible. Even in the case where a single test and BC instruction may detect significantly different errors. More likely, middleware fails to distinguish or preserve distinct reason codes supplied by the base level. The M&C Reason explanations are rife with "either or". -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I used to imagine the poor mechanics listening skeptically to a young clueless driver saying "I swear, mister, it was making this awful noise just a minute ago...!" I wouldn't have believed her either. Then I started in end-user support. I have implicitly believed those stories ever since. I tell some hapless users that their machines saw me coming and immediately cleaned up their act. I'm mostly kidding, but how else to explain it when it happens so often? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place, but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. -Dorothy Nevill */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 13:30 My favorite is when someone is repeatedly getting an error, but when they call me over and without doing anything differently, the error magically goes away. I always said this was because the computer knows that I simply won't stand for such insubordination and it knows that I know where the off switch is. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Long ago in a galaxy far away, there was a telephone company called Gong, Owned by Andromeda Telepath and Teleport. When a customer called in with an outage, they would go to the appropriate equipment, clean and reseat all of the contacts, and then test. They would then report back to the customer that they saw no sign of a problem. In some cases the answer is timing. Certainly running GTF is going to introduce some delays, and there are equivalent effects in other areas. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 12:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" I used to imagine the poor mechanics listening skeptically to a young clueless driver saying "I swear, mister, it was making this awful noise just a minute ago...!" I wouldn't have believed her either. Then I started in end-user support. I have implicitly believed those stories ever since. I tell some hapless users that their machines saw me coming and immediately cleaned up their act. I'm mostly kidding, but how else to explain it when it happens so often? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place, but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. -Dorothy Nevill */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 13:30 My favorite is when someone is repeatedly getting an error, but when they call me over and without doing anything differently, the error magically goes away. I always said this was because the computer knows that I simply won't stand for such insubordination and it knows that I know where the off switch is. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Tom Brennan wrote: >At least in that case you can hopefully reproduce the error :) >It's the one-time lost error messages that as a support person, you >sometimes have to say, "Oh well" I call this an "anecdotal error": worth opening a ticket with as much (little) detail as possible and then closing immediately, so it's recorded. Get a few of these with the same symptom and eventually you get enough breadcrumbs to connect the dots. I remember a problem I tracked this way for three years, finally nailed it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes ..."
> honorary rank of "Rear Admiral" She was honorable, but her rank of rear admiral (lower half) was official. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Mark S Waterbury [01c3f560aac1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 7:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes ..." Folks, That article: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1YkEVaaW2NQE4zZBon0wFeQH_9FImqlkDJH_tSfBHTiif1UZH2T0TpoDYgHhSqGOnYl1s9d2NVN5DPvl8moTX-EPigQTD5mVaMB_3s7NR4JJ1v5BwT8ZINTh5mddLHfNbyhtSVIP1lZiWxbv25j1hjIRAl61lEeBjB_DhTDI_oyYH_sqfel8XvIiivDjg802kUZwAl3CXB8XOQpaxeZ3e7uJx43WIzJd3zqDUf-FgSsBRDRKxWQM1AJn-8ynHQ6cGYPHl6GrgkIMD7efEBbPeImO0Fqb7nGdQCyqBgiLRMuhm_Fd3ExMTaSsDf0iXaGec65ATtV24xRs9pKxp-ChOjYnhq-7FV63AvHEMgsotUS6yPrdmQulsn_IouR8iNO_Y9GrZgsqrF81I_VnhYARXd-LV1je2gYMBaNF80bRrxnvLSZ3aGiOyIcKX7b7qHBxm/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail%2F -- has a nice historical photo at the top, but with no explanation whatsoever of the content of that picture. That is none other than (a then young) Grace Hopper, who was instrumental in the development of COBOL, and who worked for the U.S. Navy for most of her career. I had the privilege of meeting her, in person, early in my career, when she was then an "elder statesman" for COBOL and had been given the honorary rank of "Rear Admiral" in the US Navy ... (she was officially retired from the Navy by then); that was in the late 1970s, around 1976 or 1977, if I remember correctly. At that time, she always carried with her a small bundle of "bell wire" all cut to a lengh of just under 12 inches, or the distance an electrical signal would travel over copper wire in one nanosecond. As she met each new person, she would hand you one of these pieces of wire and say, "That's a nanosecond!" with some delight. :-) See also : https://secure-web.cisco.com/1tTfT5z0IKCIGHz4FCtv3aDkaCb_yNwpvzpXBsb5fT2-IzvsAMMFGf_kNHp2aOd30MhQ4lJ4hQ1cSSM1YTiI1WaJpeLJtRNbqn4d9fy01ubm8BWcCPpRiYtOGfufOGs6ivF8E-qQN8YgUpA48kJDa6Erd05oHgVjBJupkBDLEBHCg7kPg9tTrEdAs9NOiIRx0hIgZcNliJNNxyr6ET5sbhby_QifV52aX0_pjPHP56Lohdr-o-YZrwssmEicaOH29n4Oqt--d4XaYYnhArtL6k_Ft78LY7t3BdctgNdc5WO8zJwHVlaN-2QVFLiSQuutdqNS-s45Nvt1ZMkNHYHfhiLoB0Bwe4GzNigkO4qV44zuuYhvWoWBmF1avSUOU9PBuzl77HTeIOVbf90-eFM677m2-LjaI0Uzx364nWA0ldfVyC06Xs-Rp5Q9awXt7EVNI/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGrace_Hopper and https://secure-web.cisco.com/15LkVx0q_ddEgNVr4Whc9x13iSpYwn06NS4MIqJGMsOES5f4Jj3rEshewnWCsYE61-QEc7Ox0qDtlyMREu6yVfPbLZHSbk6NO8IgErWjIhCEd77bK22fTY5ObVlOGdLyMuAnE9tWTcUz1GZ5ZO8T4YVbcaEcmE3BYUo8gQPp2bgSZDqSPJgeZQdrRsIOm-PcxA0hrXm1RM4h2cxpeHhaIzLs3PUjOIzn0eS7ZK37xfV7qU3u8FhVoCyv98NgEOoNuqYEpPQzeEb2LpOPcGeROW6WbUxrdsegsHwujMsYxn4T0VYFGUWhdATc1JzBFvM9-eNVi2Fpe1mRJmxcGsjOcb8m-geibN1tSe1wZFtkTnCi_ohVm6ohVell5wJFC82BLIw9eXN19yPFb2Nto4UeaJxf6eWxCajNAKfbKsCXozsa2lOk64BSWoMLCtgnmKL6ChYobJPFw08FDU_q6SVAjmQ/https%3A%2F%2Fnews.yale.edu%2F2017%2F02%2F10%2Fgrace-murray-hopper-1906-1992-legacy-innovation-and-service Anyway, I just wanted to point that out, about that photo. These young so-called journalists today never do proper research or "vett" any of their stories they write, or "fact check" anything. It is really a shame. And, as for the numbers they quote, of what percentage of those "surveyed" responded this way or that, what percentage of how large a population? And who did they survey, exactly -- a bunch of young MBA types who are now typically in the role of "CIO" or VP, IS? Those are the same people who are largely responsible for ruining much of the industry, with "outsourcing" to the lowest bidder overseas, etc. :-o Just saying ... All the best, Mark S. Waterbury -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes ..."
She came to speak at A&T University in NC where I worked a couple years, back in the late '70s. I didn't go to hear it - didn't sound all that interesting to me - but my boss came back from it with one of her nanoseconds and from his description I've regretted it ever since. Oh, well, I had my chance. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark S Waterbury Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 19:35 That article: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainframes-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ -- has a nice historical photo at the top, but with no explanation whatsoever of the content of that picture. That is none other than (a then young) Grace Hopper, who was instrumental in the development of COBOL, and who worked for the U.S. Navy for most of her career. I had the privilege of meeting her, in person, early in my career, when she was then an "elder statesman" for COBOL and had been given the honorary rank of "Rear Admiral" in the US Navy ... (she was officially retired from the Navy by then); that was in the late 1970s, around 1976 or 1977, if I remember correctly. At that time, she always carried with her a small bundle of "bell wire" all cut to a lengh of just under 12 inches, or the distance an electrical signal would travel over copper wire in one nanosecond. As she met each new person, she would hand you one of these pieces of wire and say, "That's a nanosecond!" with some delight. :-) See also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper and https://news.yale.edu/2017/02/10/grace-murray-hopper-1906-1992-legacy-innovation-and-service -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes ..."
Reminds me of a box of nanoseconds that the company I work for bought, containing long spools of fiber to test (or more likely prove that it won't work?) various km distances between sysplexed mainframes. http://www.mildredbrennan.com/mvs/fiber_spools.png On 6/13/2020 4:34 PM, Mark S Waterbury wrote: At that time, she always carried with her a small bundle of "bell wire" all cut to a lengh of just under 12 inches, or the distance an electrical signal would travel over copper wire in one nanosecond. As she met each new person, she would hand you one of these pieces of wire and say, "That's a nanosecond!" with some delight. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
So does this mean that 2/3 of companies out there are running unsupported hardware and software? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Raphaël Jacquot Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:48 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Le 09/06/2020 à 14:24, Peter Bishop a écrit : > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 > years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the > sample size? Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter it does make sense if out of those 4 machines, they have older and newer boxes... Raphael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Maybe based on their "logic", my z14 is 30 years old because we're running an application on it that was written in the late 80s. Never mind that it has been maintained for the past 30+ years, since we can find 30 year old code in the application, the entire thing must be 30+ years old. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Bishop Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Interesting re 2): "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? Is it biased somehow? Cheers, Peter On 9/06/2020 10:02 pm, Bob Bridges wrote: > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainfram > es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can > tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to > more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked > about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the > cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they > fail to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it > to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author > ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the > world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of > those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just > can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Is that like the eternal ax (that handle has been changed 20 times and the blade 30 times, but it's still the same ax)? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:59 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Maybe based on their "logic", my z14 is 30 years old because we're running an application on it that was written in the late 80s. Never mind that it has been maintained for the past 30+ years, since we can find 30 year old code in the application, the entire thing must be 30+ years old. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Peter Bishop Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Interesting re 2): "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? Is it biased somehow? Cheers, Peter On 9/06/2020 10:02 pm, Bob Bridges wrote: > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1JN9E1bGCX8mpl6qPkrSEev2O0fNt81naiQJbFUhhlGtqM9bJimsEWYFVu_WWDFv8b1LEShSbIYjTypvbccq0QTe8fSSnqtPTlIl5WSobiXufZ6TbWYqAd2zB6QnAJclJP_rAf4DgxXIypS7ymmvlkSe5TWlyy0y-0iLJVkpBun7o0cLqD4cYGunrKLpI9mR7jXtQTEW5mFdkn4ebl587wTx_Mz8k7HoG9dO1TptQ9A5akIhDp4Cvmz46L8Nvm7qca8D7I2KGd5alIDSNBefZDXYOIDnU14SegaPCQ5ON9WE8lD77ARJjrfke6SFteYf1D9CilsWGSdey--UR8R4B30tUGtIG2gflxGCGCckkwQdiMhCYFTxxVKpuXNl8glorWalBxAVso0bIdzEn7xAtz-0iemamNd1GxIAswPave4LokMoaE1c8NYBjr-kWaGaB/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainfram > es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can > tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to > more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked > about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the > cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they > fail to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it > to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author > ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the > world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of > those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just > can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received thi
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Y'all stop using logic and reason - this is an emotional issue that the author and others are invested in and has nothing to do with IBM effectively telling the world that the mainframe is dead based on all the layoffs that have occurred over the last 20-25 years, or that IBM continues to offload software development or outright sells IBM software to other companies, or that IBM has bought into the Cloud and has reduced their investment in developing z/OS, or . . . . And then there is the vast amounts of money to be made by replacing a mainframe - I'm sure that those vendors offering those services only have the best interests of the current mainframe users at heart. It's Beta vs VHS all over again Lionel B. Dyck < Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" So does this mean that 2/3 of companies out there are running unsupported hardware and software? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Raphaël Jacquot Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:48 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Le 09/06/2020 à 14:24, Peter Bishop a écrit : > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 > years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the > sample size? Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter it does make sense if out of those 4 machines, they have older and newer boxes... Raphael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
" It's Beta vs VHS all over again" GREAT analogy, like DVD vs Laser DISC and who won out, the better of the two ? nope Carmen Vitullo - Original Message - From: "Lionel B Dyck" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:20:47 AM Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Y'all stop using logic and reason - this is an emotional issue that the author and others are invested in and has nothing to do with IBM effectively telling the world that the mainframe is dead based on all the layoffs that have occurred over the last 20-25 years, or that IBM continues to offload software development or outright sells IBM software to other companies, or that IBM has bought into the Cloud and has reduced their investment in developing z/OS, or . . . . And then there is the vast amounts of money to be made by replacing a mainframe - I'm sure that those vendors offering those services only have the best interests of the current mainframe users at heart. It's Beta vs VHS all over again Lionel B. Dyck < Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com "Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are." - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 8:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" So does this mean that 2/3 of companies out there are running unsupported hardware and software? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Raphaël Jacquot Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:48 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Le 09/06/2020 à 14:24, Peter Bishop a écrit : > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are > running mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running > machines that are 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 > years? What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the > sample size? Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter it does make sense if out of those 4 machines, they have older and newer boxes... Raphael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:19 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: > Is that like the eternal ax (that handle has been changed 20 times and the > blade 30 times, but it's still the same ax)? > Or like I read in one book: "I've only had one drink. It's been topped off 20 times. But it's only one drink." Or more like a military organization. The U.K Coldstream Guards has been in existence since 1650. Lots of different commanders and soldiers. But the same regiment. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf > of Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 9:59 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > Maybe based on their "logic", my z14 is 30 years old because we're running > an application on it that was written in the late 80s. Never mind that it > has been maintained for the past 30+ years, since we can find 30 year old > code in the application, the entire thing must be 30+ years old. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Peter Bishop > Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 7:24 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" > > Interesting re 2): > > "The survey found that organizations are running an average of four > mainframes with an average age of 17 years. Sixty-four percent are running > mainframes between 10 and 20 years old, with 28% running machines that are > 20 to 30 years old. " > > So 2/7 are running machines over 20+ years old? And 2/3 over 10 years? > What does that even mean? Smells fishy to me. What is the sample size? > Is it biased somehow? > > Cheers, > Peter > > On 9/06/2020 10:02 pm, Bob Bridges wrote: > > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > > > > https://secure-web.cisco.com/1JN9E1bGCX8mpl6qPkrSEev2O0fNt81naiQJbFUhhlGtqM9bJimsEWYFVu_WWDFv8b1LEShSbIYjTypvbccq0QTe8fSSnqtPTlIl5WSobiXufZ6TbWYqAd2zB6QnAJclJP_rAf4DgxXIypS7ymmvlkSe5TWlyy0y-0iLJVkpBun7o0cLqD4cYGunrKLpI9mR7jXtQTEW5mFdkn4ebl587wTx_Mz8k7HoG9dO1TptQ9A5akIhDp4Cvmz46L8Nvm7qca8D7I2KGd5alIDSNBefZDXYOIDnU14SegaPCQ5ON9WE8lD77ARJjrfke6SFteYf1D9CilsWGSdey--UR8R4B30tUGtIG2gflxGCGCckkwQdiMhCYFTxxVKpuXNl8glorWalBxAVso0bIdzEn7xAtz-0iemamNd1GxIAswPave4LokMoaE1c8NYBjr-kWaGaB/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.techrepublic.com%2Farticle%2Feveryone-wants-to-retire-mainfram > > es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I > can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from > mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old > assumption we've talked about recently. > > > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications > to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they > > fail to modernize > > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > > market changes > > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > > projects > > > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my > last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I > supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" > and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business > operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, > including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us > that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications > to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not > be planning such a move. > > > > --- > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > > email to lists...
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:21 AM Lionel B Dyck wrote: > Y'all stop using logic and reason - this is an emotional issue that the > author and others are invested in and has nothing to do with IBM > effectively telling the world that the mainframe is dead based on all the > layoffs that have occurred over the last 20-25 years, or that IBM continues > to offload software development or outright sells IBM software to other > companies, or that IBM has bought into the Cloud and has reduced their > investment in developing z/OS, or . . . . > > And then there is the vast amounts of money to be made by replacing a > mainframe - I'm sure that those vendors offering those services only have > the best interests of the current mainframe users at heart. > > It's Beta vs VHS all over again > Beta lost due to marketing idiocy. It was superior to VHS, technically, but "overpriced" compared to VHS. So the consumer went with the inferior but more affordable VHS. You're right -- exactly like z/OS vs. Windows and zSeries vs. AMD/Intel. > > Lionel B. Dyck < > Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com -- People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Years ago, IBM did sell hardware/software to universities at deeply discounted prices to attract young people to them. Why they stopped is anybody's guess. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 10:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > A coworker just sent me this brief article. > > https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainfram > es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ > > I'm interested in two aspects of this: > > 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can > tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to > more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked > about recently. > > 2) There's a really surprising number in there: > > "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the > cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: > > - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they > fail to modernize > - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to > market changes > - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation > projects > > About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization > program but failed to complete it" > > Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last > three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it > to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author > ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. > > The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations > with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the > world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of > those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just > can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
AFAIK IBM sometimes give some software to universities for free. It can be operating system, access to remote system or just IBM course (also include access to mainframe in Poughkeepsie). To complement: several years ago they sold BC class machine to some polish university at very good price. The HDS decided to sell DASD array for 1 PLN (approx 0.25 USD). -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 09.06.2020 o 18:12, Pommier, Rex pisze: Years ago, IBM did sell hardware/software to universities at deeply discounted prices to attract young people to them. Why they stopped is anybody's guess. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 10:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" When I bought my Yamaha piano in 1989, I heard a story that Yamaha had been supplying free pianos to universities for years. It was more than them just being nice, they knew that someone practicing every day on the school grand piano would likely go on to buy one, or be the decision maker for an orchestra, night club, or whatever. I always thought that was super smart of them. What I always thought was rather dumb, is that IBM doesn't do similar with educational use of all their software. And that's just copied bits ... no wood, metal, delivery, tuning, etc. On 6/9/2020 5:02 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: A coworker just sent me this brief article. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/everyone-wants-to-retire-mainfram es-but-74-of-modernization-efforts-fail/ I'm interested in two aspects of this: 1) The writer uses the word "modernization" quite a bit, and as far as I can tell she uses it, without explanation, to mean "switching from mainframes to more recently invented platforms". This is the old assumption we've talked about recently. 2) There's a really surprising number in there: "...almost 100% of survey respondents plan to move legacy applications to the cloud this year and the motivation to move is clear: - 60% strongly agree they will be left behind competitively if they fail to modernize - 33% say modernizing has allowed the company to be more reactive to market changes - 34% say legacy modernization has accelerated digital transformation projects About three-quarters of leaders said they have started a modernization program but failed to complete it" Can that "almost 100%" claim be true? I confess that three out of my last three clients are talking about eliminating the mainframe, but I supposed it to be an anomaly. Maybe the survey used the word "modernize" and the author ~assumed~ this must mean dropping the mainframe. The article also says "Mainframes are still critical to business operations with 71% of the Fortune 500 depending on these machines, including 92 of the world's 100 largest banks". Come on - she's telling us that almost ~all~ of those companies intend to switch legacy applications to the cloud? I just can't buy that. ~My~ bank had certainly better not be planning such a move. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If a problem has a single neck, it has a simple solution. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District C
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 2:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:02:40 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote: >Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: > >"I have a very basic one to complain about: > >DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ > >This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS >library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I >really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? > The practice was established over a half century ago when every programmer could be presumed to have at least a superficial knowledge of the entire OS/360 reference library. And storage was too precious to support elaborate messages. That time has passed. The practice persists. -- gil Not saying I wouldn't like to see the messages updated/cleaned up/friendly-ized ( ? ) , but my guess is that the few people IBM has left working on z/OS and the related software have more important things to do. Rex The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
I was here and that sort of message was not acceptable then. They could at least have written somethng like DFS0929I BLDL ON DDNAME foo FAILED with RC=bar FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Pommier, Rex [rpomm...@sfgmembers.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:04 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 2:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:02:40 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote: >Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: > >"I have a very basic one to complain about: > >DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ > >This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified IMS >library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do I >really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? > The practice was established over a half century ago when every programmer could be presumed to have at least a superficial knowledge of the entire OS/360 reference library. And storage was too precious to support elaborate messages. That time has passed. The practice persists. -- gil Not saying I wouldn't like to see the messages updated/cleaned up/friendly-ized ( ? ) , but my guess is that the few people IBM has left working on z/OS and the related software have more important things to do. Rex The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Things like numeric conversion and scooting text around are difficult in assembler, so I would tend to put that off until later [1]. Then one day I coded a macro and underlying subroutine so I could do something like this: #PRINTF SYSPRINT,'DFS0929I BLDL ON DDNAME %s FAILED with RC=%d FOR MEMBER %s',(DDNAME,(R15),MEMBER) ... and suddenly I was far more likely to include the extra details with the initial coding. I just looked at some doc for that old code and found this section, so I guess I was having some fun with various options to help display what I assume is correct English: .* PLURALIZER EXAMPLE (options P and A): .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'You have %pd dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: You have 1 dog .* You have 2 dogs .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'There %ad dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: There is 1 dog .* There are 2 dogs [1] I was once known for the simple message "BAD RETURN CODE FROM COPY UTILITY", which I kept saying was temporary but somehow made it to a prod application. Oops. On 6/10/2020 1:25 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: I was here and that sort of message was not acceptable then. They could at least have written somethng like DFS0929I BLDL ON DDNAME foo FAILED with RC=bar FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
That's cool, the is/are and pluralization. I never bothered -- I have always gone with (s) as in "You have %d dog(s)" Yes, I really upped my error message game when I went from assembler to C++. Yes, you can do anything in assembler, but unless you have or devote time to developing macros such as you describe, you tend to end up with less user-friendly messages. With C/C++ there is no excuse. On the other hand, as a guy who has been responsible for product management and a support desk, I used to run around the office yelling that our next product was only going to have one error message "AN ERROR OCCURRED" after yet another exchange like this: Tech: XYZ support, may I help you? Customer: Yes, XYZ blew up yesterday. Tech: Our apologies. What was the error message? Customer: Something about an error occurred. Tech: What was the exact message number? We could use that to troubleshoot the issue. Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Things like numeric conversion and scooting text around are difficult in assembler, so I would tend to put that off until later [1]. Then one day I coded a macro and underlying subroutine so I could do something like this: #PRINTF SYSPRINT,'DFS0929I BLDL ON DDNAME %s FAILED with RC=%d FOR MEMBER %s',(DDNAME,(R15),MEMBER) ... and suddenly I was far more likely to include the extra details with the initial coding. I just looked at some doc for that old code and found this section, so I guess I was having some fun with various options to help display what I assume is correct English: .* PLURALIZER EXAMPLE (options P and A): .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'You have %pd dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: You have 1 dog .* You have 2 dogs .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'There %ad dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: There is 1 dog .* There are 2 dogs -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Well, in the TSO environment there's a service to build messages from templates, plugging in variables. ISPF has similar services. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 11:26 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" That's cool, the is/are and pluralization. I never bothered -- I have always gone with (s) as in "You have %d dog(s)" Yes, I really upped my error message game when I went from assembler to C++. Yes, you can do anything in assembler, but unless you have or devote time to developing macros such as you describe, you tend to end up with less user-friendly messages. With C/C++ there is no excuse. On the other hand, as a guy who has been responsible for product management and a support desk, I used to run around the office yelling that our next product was only going to have one error message "AN ERROR OCCURRED" after yet another exchange like this: Tech: XYZ support, may I help you? Customer: Yes, XYZ blew up yesterday. Tech: Our apologies. What was the error message? Customer: Something about an error occurred. Tech: What was the exact message number? We could use that to troubleshoot the issue. Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" Things like numeric conversion and scooting text around are difficult in assembler, so I would tend to put that off until later [1]. Then one day I coded a macro and underlying subroutine so I could do something like this: #PRINTF SYSPRINT,'DFS0929I BLDL ON DDNAME %s FAILED with RC=%d FOR MEMBER %s',(DDNAME,(R15),MEMBER) ... and suddenly I was far more likely to include the extra details with the initial coding. I just looked at some doc for that old code and found this section, so I guess I was having some fun with various options to help display what I assume is correct English: .* PLURALIZER EXAMPLE (options P and A): .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'You have %pd dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: You have 1 dog .* You have 2 dogs .* .* #SPRINTF OUTBUF,'There %ad dogs',NUMDOGS .* .* produces: There is 1 dog .* There are 2 dogs -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
My favorite is a marketing guy I was supporting. He called for my help with some problem that had occurred - I don't remember what exactly, probably with a DYL-280II program that he'd written with my help - and, as always, I asked him what the error message had said. "Oh, it said some damn thing" he retorted. I think he was laughing at himself as he said it, but he said it. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* My aunt has rather selfishly suspended her production of chocolate cake because of the whole "broken hip" thing, leaving me to try to find a worthwhile substituteI purchased a box with a picture of a cake on it, but inside were all these so-called "ingredients" that, once I'd mixed them and baked them and put out the flames, tasted suspiciously like one of my mother's chocolate hockey pucks. -Bruce Cameron */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 11:26 ...as a guy who has been responsible for product management and a support desk, I used to run around the office yelling that our next product was only going to have one error message "AN ERROR OCCURRED" after yet another exchange like this: Tech: XYZ support, may I help you? Customer: Yes, XYZ blew up yesterday. Tech: Our apologies. What was the error message? Customer: Something about an error occurred. Tech: What was the exact message number? We could use that to troubleshoot the issue. Customer: I don't know. We already deleted the SYSOUT. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
My other favorite. We had someone call about an installation problem. The solution was rather involved so our support tech said "it is covered in detail in the Installation Manual" whereupon the customer guy said "oh, I don't have the manuals. Bob has the manuals. He's in charge of documentation. I'm just in charge of installation." Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 9:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes" My favorite is a marketing guy I was supporting. He called for my help with some problem that had occurred - I don't remember what exactly, probably with a DYL-280II program that he'd written with my help - and, as always, I asked him what the error message had said. "Oh, it said some damn thing" he retorted. I think he was laughing at himself as he said it, but he said it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes"
Charles Mills wrote, in part: >I never bothered -- I have always gone with (s) as in "You have %d dog(s)" You could substitute "an integer value greater 0 and less than 2" when it's "1", and then "dogs" would always be correct :) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Messages & Codes (was Re: "Everyone wants to retire mainframes")
I take this example as merely an example. IBM & the software industry are notoriously bad at getting these right. At one end, you have "Oops, something went wrong." -- Windows 10 (and yeah, the day I started using Windows 10). At the other, IDC3009I. Sheesh. Counter to those, the IMS message doesn't seem quite so bad... it's (presumably) accurate, and fairly precise. You could argue it could be worded more simply, or that it should provide the detailed codes. In my experience, messages get very little attention or quality review. I'm sure it varies a lot. sas On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 3:50 PM Paul Gilmartin < 000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:02:40 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote: > > >Here's a quote from a message I posted to this list in 2009: > > > >"I have a very basic one to complain about: > > > >DFS0929I BLDL FAILED FOR MEMBER --DDMPPSZ > > > >This really means that the specified PSB DDMPPSZ is not in the specified > IMS library. Why can't it just say that? As an application programmer do > I really need to know that BLDL means, well, whatever it means? > > > The practice was established over a half century ago when every programmer > could be presumed to have at least a superficial knowledge of the entire > OS/360 > reference library. And storage was too precious to support elaborate > messages. > > That time has passed. > > The practice persists. > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
