Re: Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

[Bill Woodger]

The photo is a rare insight into IBM's early R on the concept which later 
became the Smartphone.

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Re: Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

[Charles Mills]

Photo with the article shows the first minicomputer.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Dave Jones
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 7:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

Sad news:

Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/technology/erich-bloch-who-helped-develop-ibm-mainframe-dies-at-91.html?smid=li-share&_r=0

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Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

[Dave Jones]

Sad news:

Erich Bloch, Who Helped Develop IBM Mainframe, Dies at 91

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/technology/erich-bloch-who-helped-develop-ibm-mainframe-dies-at-91.html?smid=li-share&_r=0

DJ

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Ted MacNEIL]

It was converted from PASCAL for OS/390 1.7 (1990's). So, any doc would be of 
that vintage


-
-teD
-
  Original Message  
From: Elardus Engelbrecht
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 06:21
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Reply To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

Tony Harminc wrote:

> Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>> No TCP/IP? Or is the old Pascal version still supported?

>No.

Hmmm, I know Pascal was used first [1] as source for TCP/IP and some modules 
were later rewritten in other languages.

Where is it documented that Pascal is not used as source for those [ IBM - z/OS 
] TCP/IP modules?

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

[1] - based on what I remember (hey, my last remaining brain cells don't like 
exercises... ;-D) on IBM-MAIN when Pascal and TCP/IP was discussed in the past.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Charles Mills]

Trying to be helpful rather than smart*ss here, if you mean "I would prefer
a JCL-/batch-based solution to a UNIX command line solution" -- and if so I
am sympathetic -- then you should be aware that you can run a UNIX utility
from JCL. Here is an example. You should be able to run UXIX tar this way in
a job if you prefer.

//BPXARCH  EXEC PGM=BPXBATCH,COND=(4,LT),   
//PARM='SH cd /Object;ar -rvc Object.a *.o'   
//STDINDD   DUMMY   
//STDOUT   DD   SYSOUT=*
//STDERR   DD   SYSOUT=*

Charles

-Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Leonard Sasso
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 9:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

Our management does allow the use of UNIX System Services, but I would
prefer not to.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Charles Mills]

I resemble that remark!

Different people are comfortable with different things. I happen to be 
comfortable with PDSs of JCL and not terribly comfortable with shell scripts. 
So shoot me. I plead guilty. I was suggesting that the OP might possibly be in 
the same boat.

> isn't this really just writing the dreaded shell script in the PARM?

Of course! OTOH it is embedded in an environment with which the OP may be more 
comfortable. If the remainder of the OP's process is JCL-based then this may be 
a better solution than running one job, getting over to a UNIX prompt and 
running one command, and then running a second batch job.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:43:33 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>Trying to be helpful rather than smart*ss here, if you mean "I would 
>prefer a JCL-/batch-based solution to a UNIX command line solution" -- 
>and if so I
>
Being a smartass here, this reminds me of trying to make a C library with JCL 
instead of OMVS make.

>am sympathetic -- then you should be aware that you can run a UNIX 
>utility from JCL. Here is an example. You should be able to run UXIX 
>tar this way in a job if you prefer.
>
Here's a tested example:
//*
//*  Symbolics to obfuscate DSNAMEs and meet JCL LRECL limit.
//*  Archive is in legacy data set;  "pax" prefixes like TSO.
//*
//*  pax extracts to UNIX directory hierarchy.
//*OGETX could copy to PDS(E).  I don't know whether
//*"Data21's ZIP/390 Product" might eliminate a step.
//*In either case a multilevel hierarchy makes it harder.
//*
//BPXARCH  EXEC PGM=BPXBATCH,COND=(4,LT), //  PARM='SH set -x; cd /tmp/ 
pax -rvf //'
//*
//STDINDD   DUMMY
//STDOUT   DD   SYSOUT=*
//STDERR   DD   SYSOUT=*
//
(But isn't this really just writing the dreaded shell script in the PARM?)

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:43:33 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>Trying to be helpful rather than smart*ss here, if you mean "I would prefer
>a JCL-/batch-based solution to a UNIX command line solution" -- and if so I
>
Being a smartass here, this reminds me of trying to make a C library with
JCL instead of OMVS make.

>am sympathetic -- then you should be aware that you can run a UNIX utility
>from JCL. Here is an example. You should be able to run UXIX tar this way in
>a job if you prefer.
>
Here's a tested example:
//*
//*  Symbolics to obfuscate DSNAMEs and meet JCL LRECL limit.
//*  Archive is in legacy data set;  "pax" prefixes like TSO.
//*
//*  pax extracts to UNIX directory hierarchy.
//*OGETX could copy to PDS(E).  I don't know whether
//*"Data21's ZIP/390 Product" might eliminate a step.
//*In either case a multilevel hierarchy makes it harder.
//*
//BPXARCH  EXEC PGM=BPXBATCH,COND=(4,LT),
//  PARM='SH set -x; cd /tmp/ pax -rvf //'
//*
//STDINDD   DUMMY
//STDOUT   DD   SYSOUT=*
//STDERR   DD   SYSOUT=*
//
(But isn't this really just writing the dreaded shell script in the PARM?)

-- gil

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<of1902fef9.d682bf4e-on85257f1e.0002c820-85257f1e.0002d...@csgov.com>,
on 12/16/2015
   at 07:31 PM, Leonard Sasso <lsa...@csgov.com> said:

>Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that 
>can "extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - 
>z/OS 2.1 ?

What's wrong with the tar command that comes with z/OS?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html> 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Leonard Sasso]

Our management does allow the use of UNIX System Services, but I would
prefer not to.

Thank You.

Len Sasso
RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
Backup QMR - Production Operations
CSC

Vacation Alert: ?

327 Columbia TPKE, Rensselaer NY 12144
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This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that
may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The
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error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure,
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prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to
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From:   Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   12/17/2015 12:20 PM
Subject:Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe
Sent by:    IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 05:48:00 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>
>What's wrong with the tar command that comes with z/OS?
>
What if his management doesn't allow the use of UNIX System Services?

(Is that still going on?  It's been a while since I've seen the question,
once pervasive in these fora, "How can I prevent my staff's ... ?")

-- gil

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Jack J. Woehr]

Jack J. Woehr wrote:

 unless you are saying that the z/OS implementation of Unix leans on USS which 
I don't think is the case.


I meant "the z/OS implementation of TCP/IP leans on USS"

--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of
www.well.com/~jax # thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe
www.softwoehr.com # with a fine understanding of human fallibility. - Carl Sagan

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Charles Mills]

Oh my gosh! It almost certainly does. Hard to picture there are no UNIX 
services used.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Jack J. Woehr
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 10:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

Jack J. Woehr wrote:
>  unless you are saying that the z/OS implementation of Unix leans on USS 
> which I don't think is the case.
>
I meant "the z/OS implementation of TCP/IP leans on USS"

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <0904944842246174.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu>, on
12/17/2015
   at 11:21 AM, Paul Gilmartin
<000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> said:

>On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 05:48:00 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: >
>>What's wrong with the tar command that comes with z/OS?
>> 
>What if his management doesn't allow the use of UNIX System
>Services?

No TCP/IP? Or is the old Pascal version still supported?

Is there a pax or tar equivalent that doesn't require dubbing? I'm not
aware of one.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Jack J. Woehr]

Charles Mills wrote:

Oh my gosh! It almost certainly does. Hard to picture there are no UNIX 
services used.


I guess it's fair to say it's all of a cloth.

--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of
www.well.com/~jax # thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe
www.softwoehr.com # with a fine understanding of human fallibility. - Carl Sagan

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 05:48:00 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>
>What's wrong with the tar command that comes with z/OS?
> 
What if his management doesn't allow the use of UNIX System Services?

(Is that still going on?  It's been a while since I've seen the question,
once pervasive in these fora, "How can I prevent my staff's ... ?")

-- gil

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[John McKown]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Charles Mills  wrote:

> I hope you don't connect via TCP/IP.
>

​[grin] or TN3270 or ftp or ​ Likely the OP mean "I don't want to use
UNIX myself, directly". Too bad, it has some nice features.



>
> Charles
>
> --

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Jack J. Woehr]

John McKown wrote:

​Because you said you don't want to use UNIX. And TCPIP uses UNIX,


Well, TCP/IP comes from the Unix world and much IBM-provided TCP/IP software comes directly from open source Unix, e.g., 
OpenSSH


But TCP/IP doesn't "use" Unix, Unix uses TCP/IP ("the TCP/IP stack") ... unless you are saying that the z/OS 
implementation of Unix leans on USS which I don't think is the case.


--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of
www.well.com/~jax  # thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe
www.softwoehr.com  # with a fine understanding of human fallibility. - Carl 
Sagan

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Charles Mills]

I hope you don't connect via TCP/IP.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Leonard Sasso
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 9:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

Our management does allow the use of UNIX System Services, but I would
prefer not to.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Leonard Sasso]

We do, why?



Thank You.

Len Sasso
RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
Backup QMR - Production Operations
CSC

Vacation Alert: ?

327 Columbia TPKE, Rensselaer NY 12144
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This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that
may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The
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From:   Charles Mills <charl...@mcn.org>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   12/17/2015 01:02 PM
Subject:Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe
Sent by:    IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



I hope you don't connect via TCP/IP.

Charles

-Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Leonard Sasso
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 9:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

Our management does allow the use of UNIX System Services, but I would
prefer not to.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[John McKown]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Leonard Sasso  wrote:

> We do, why?
>

​Because you said you don't want to use UNIX. And TCPIP uses UNIX, and so
thus does all TCPIP related sub-systems such an 3270 emulation (TN3270),
and ftp. So you most likely do use UNIX, implicitly. I know, you meant
"directly, issuing commands".​

-- 

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Leonard Sasso]

We download the file using a Windows Application provided by the file
originator (USPS).


Thank You.

Len Sasso
RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
Backup QMR - Production Operations
CSC

Vacation Alert: ?

327 Columbia TPKE, Rensselaer NY 12144
NES  | t: 518.257-4209 | m: 518-894-0879 | f: 257-4300 | lsa...@csgov.com |
www.csc.com


This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that
may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The
information in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s)
to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in
error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure,
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prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to
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From:   John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   12/17/2015 01:16 PM
Subject:Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe
Sent by:    IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Leonard Sasso <lsa...@csgov.com> wrote:

> We do, why?
>

​Because you said you don't want to use UNIX. And TCPIP uses UNIX, and so
thus does all TCPIP related sub-systems such an 3270 emulation (TN3270),
and ftp. So you most likely do use UNIX, implicitly. I know, you meant
"directly, issuing commands".​

--

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Tony Harminc]

On 17 December 2015 at 13:39, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> No TCP/IP? Or is the old Pascal version still supported?

No.

> Is there a pax or tar equivalent that doesn't require dubbing? I'm not
> aware of one.

It's not impossible that tar might run without being dubbed. One might
be able to copy the tar executable from the UNIX file into a PDSE
member and run it from JCL, or more likely by invoking it from a
program with suitably UNIXy arguments. But I wouldn't want to bet on
it not using some UNIX service.

Tony H.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Tony Harminc wrote:

> Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>> No TCP/IP? Or is the old Pascal version still supported?

>No.

Hmmm, I know Pascal was used first [1] as source for TCP/IP and some modules 
were later rewritten in other languages.

Where is it documented that Pascal is not used as source for those [ IBM - z/OS 
] TCP/IP modules?

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

[1] - based on what I remember (hey, my last remaining brain cells don't like 
exercises... ;-D) on IBM-MAIN when Pascal and TCP/IP was discussed in the past.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Charles Mills]

No reason one could not write a TAR (upper case intentional) that used only 
1980's mainframe services. Nothing inherently "UNIX" about the tar format. It's 
1's and 0's in; 1's and 0's out.

Charles

-Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

On 17 December 2015 at 13:39, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
<shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:
> No TCP/IP? Or is the old Pascal version still supported?

No.

> Is there a pax or tar equivalent that doesn't require dubbing? I'm not 
> aware of one.

It's not impossible that tar might run without being dubbed. One might be able 
to copy the tar executable from the UNIX file into a PDSE member and run it 
from JCL, or more likely by invoking it from a program with suitably UNIXy 
arguments. But I wouldn't want to bet on it not using some UNIX service.

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:41:03 -0500, Tony Harminc wrote:
>
>It's not impossible that tar might run without being dubbed. One might
>be able to copy the tar executable from the UNIX file into a PDSE
>member and run it from JCL, or more likely by invoking it from a
>program with suitably UNIXy arguments. But I wouldn't want to bet on
>it not using some UNIX service.
>
I'd bet it does.  While tar/pax can archive to/extract from a legacy data
set, they only archive from/extract to UNIX directories or files.  ∎

-- gil

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <5672ffa8.6010...@well.com>, on 12/17/2015
   at 11:32 AM, "Jack J. Woehr"  said:

>But TCP/IP doesn't "use" Unix,

The TCP/IP protocol suite doesn't use any OS, but the implementation
of TCP/IP in z/OS certainly does.

>Unix uses TCP/IP

ITYM that a lot of Unix applications use TCP/IP.

>unless you are saying that the z/OS  implementation of Unix leans 
>on USS

What are you trying to say? The z/OS implementation of Unix *is* Unix
System Services.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Pinnacle]

On 12/16/2015 7:41 PM, Leonard Sasso wrote:

Hello !
Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that can
"extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - z/OS 2.1 ?



Thank You In Advance for your Help, it is appreciated.




Len Sasso
RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
Backup QMR - Production Operations
CSC


Len,

You don't need one, you can unspin the tarball in Unix System Services, 
either via OMVS, ISPF 3.17, or BPXBATCH.


Regards,
Tom Conley

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Tony Harminc]

On 16 December 2015 at 19:31, Leonard Sasso <lsa...@csgov.com> wrote:
> Hello !
> Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that can
> "extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - z/OS 2.1 ?

Um, I would start with the z/OS tar command. While it may not be the
most complete and up to date implementation, it works fine for most
ordinary things. Doubtless Paul Gilmartin will be pleased to explain
its failings in detail... :-)

$ tar
FSUM7206 Must specify one of 'c', 'r', 't', 'u', or 'x'
Usage: tar -{crtux}[ElpmoOSUvwXz[0-7[lmh]]] [-b blocks] [-L [ET]]
   [-f tarfile] [-V volpattern] [file [-C pathname] ...]


Tony H.

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TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Leonard Sasso]

Hello !
Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that can
"extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - z/OS 2.1 ?



Thank You In Advance for your Help, it is appreciated.




Len Sasso
RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
Backup QMR - Production Operations
CSC

Vacation Alert: ?

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Paul Gilmartin]

On 2015-12-16 17:54, Pinnacle wrote:
> On 12/16/2015 7:41 PM, Leonard Sasso wrote:
>> Hello !
>> Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that can
>> "extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - z/OS 2.1 ?
> 
> Len,
> 
> You don't need one, you can unspin the tarball in Unix System Services, 
> either via OMVS, ISPF 3.17, or BPXBATCH.
> 
No, you *do* need one, but tar is that one.  I don't know of "unspin".
(Is 3.17 savvy to filename extensions, like some desktop systems?)

Or pax.  If you're afflicted by the EBCDIC curse, pax has options to
translate ASCII to EBCDIC.  (Doesn't that feel like swimming upstream?)

Be sure to transfer the .tar file in BINARY.

-- gil

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Re: TAR Files:" Extracting" on a IBM Mainframe

[Bigendian Smalls]

check on pax command. think there's some overlap there. 

> On Dec 16, 2015, at 18:54, Pinnacle <pinnc...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/16/2015 7:41 PM, Leonard Sasso wrote:
>> Hello !
>> Anyone know of a product (besides Data21's ZIP/390 Product), that can
>> "extract" a file(s) from a TAR file on a IBM Mainframe - z/OS 2.1 ?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thank You In Advance for your Help, it is appreciated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Len Sasso
>> RDC Applications Management - Professional: System Administrator
>> Backup QMR - Production Operations
>> CSC
> 
> Len,
> 
> You don't need one, you can unspin the tarball in Unix System Services, 
> either via OMVS, ISPF 3.17, or BPXBATCH.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Conley
> 
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Re: IBM Mainframe

[R.S.]

W dniu 2015-11-27 o 16:16, Bobbie Justice pisze:

There's not really a shortage of IBM mainframe talent.

There is a shortage of talent that is willing to work for peanuts.
The problem is there is a lot of non-mainframe talents willing to work 
for peanuts.

Of course there is no single (common) definition of "peanuts" or "talent".

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Cannaerts, Jan]

>The problem is there is a lot of non-mainframe talents willing to work for 
>peanuts.
>Of course there is no single (common) definition of "peanuts" or "talent".

New mainframe talent requires training before they can be somewhat productive 
in a
decently set up shop[1]. This too costs money. So you work for peanuts because 
you
can't be productive (yet), and because you cost your company a lot of money in
training. Companies are used to this not so new development in IT, that you can
learn to use the newest fad in under a week, which will then be irrelevant 5 
years
later. Our sector is too mature for someone to be able to learn everything by 
him-
or herself in any reasonable amount of time. To the point where management can't
wrap their heads around the concept of investing in their employees anymore.

[1] In a non-perfectly set up shop you can work on improving very basic things 
that
don't require deep understanding of the systems you're working on. So you 
can 
be productive earlier. I believe this is the best place for new people to 
learn.
With many things to improve, you have many chances to learn. And by working
somewhere that follows every best practice, you often don't get to 
understand
why something is set up in a certain way.


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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Ed Gould]

On Nov 30, 2015, at 5:55 AM, Cannaerts, Jan wrote:

Agreed. Training companies are dying out like flies because of  
costs and
companies are to cheap. Catch 22 - You want / need training, but  
companies

need solid proven experience.


As a 22 year old (two years ago) I found that the "shotgun  
approach" worked.
Ask around until you find a company that is desperate and/or brave  
enough to
train someone with proven interest. Proving interest, however, is  
not always
easy. And not many young bloods have an interest in mainframes to  
begin with.


I work together with my college to "recruit" people in the  
mainframe optional
that is offered for senior year students. Out of ~100 students we  
get 5-10 to
enroll in that optional every year. So even without IBM-created  
incentive,

there is interest.


Interesting this item. From previous email on the list here and a lot  
of opinions I would not agree that IBM is doing a whole lot of  
incentivizing (Word?). They have been slowly yet steadily (IMO)  
killing off higher learning opportunities by not giving breaks on  
costs (MF) and other opportunities that come with higher learning.


They might not say so publicly but their actions speak volumes.

Ed

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on
11/30/2015
   at 10:20 AM, "Cannaerts, Jan"  said:

>[1] In a non-perfectly set up shop you can work on improving very
>basic things that don't require deep understanding of the systems 
>you're working on.

Technically, yes. Politically, YMMV.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Cannaerts, Jan]

> Agreed. Training companies are dying out like flies because of costs and
>companies are to cheap. Catch 22 - You want / need training, but companies
>need solid proven experience.

As a 22 year old (two years ago) I found that the "shotgun approach" worked.
Ask around until you find a company that is desperate and/or brave enough to
train someone with proven interest. Proving interest, however, is not always
easy. And not many young bloods have an interest in mainframes to begin with.

I work together with my college to "recruit" people in the mainframe optional
that is offered for senior year students. Out of ~100 students we get 5-10 to
enroll in that optional every year. So even without IBM-created incentive,
there is interest.

But it will always remain a gamble for the company, since often times it is a 
gamble for the hire. Young folk these days have the tendency to not stay in
one place for extended periods of time.

>Agreed. This is another reason why there is a thing called 'sandbox'. ;-)

This is also the reason why I don't feel bad for using Hercules as a teaching 
aid.
I broke more "installations"  than I can count,  but I learned something new 
every
time. So as long as IBM  won't provide people with a straightforward way to 
learn,
or even an incentive, I'm not going to start feeling bad for emulating their
machines. I might not be able to learn all there is to learn in 5 minutes, but I
should be able to learn how to work on a platform for free, at least.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Cannaerts, Jan wrote:

>>The problem is there is a lot of non-mainframe talents willing to work for 
>>peanuts.  Of course there is no single (common) definition of "peanuts" or 
>>"talent". 
 
>New mainframe talent requires training before they can be somewhat productive 
>in a decently set up shop[1]. This too costs money. So you work for peanuts 
>because you can't be productive (yet), and because you cost your company a lot 
>of money in 
training. 

Agreed. Training companies are dying out like flies because of costs and 
companies are to cheap. Catch 22 - You want / need training, but companies need 
solid proven experience.

Ok, above is a generalisation, but you get the general picture. You're lucky if 
you can get a good mentor/supervisor.

And there are no, AFAIK, self paced training software like those Phoenix system 
[1] where I learned a lot of things. You could try out commands during the 
training. Of course those commands are not executed 'in the wild', but analysed 
to guide the trainee.

>Companies are used to this not so new development in IT, that you can learn to 
>use the newest fad in under a week, which will then be irrelevant 5 years 
>later. 

If you can stay at the front and teach yourself all those fads, headhunters 
will love you.

 
>In a non-perfectly set up shop you can work on improving very basic things 
>that don't require deep understanding of the systems you're working on. So you 
>can be productive earlier. I believe this is the best place for new people to 
>learn. 

Agreed. This is another reason why there is a thing called 'sandbox'. ;-)

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

[1] - I was also an administrator of that system in those years. Lots of people 
got useful training and could be productive in a month or so.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Ricardo Gomez Ramirez]

2015-11-26 5:51 GMT-06:00 John McKown :​

That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the
> company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
> have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
> understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage
> company or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a
> problem. Too bad, for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and you
> can't just unplug a programmer from one job and plug him into another,
> unlike a light bulb or a lamp.


Definitely I can not be more agree with you, I'm 39 with 21 years of
experience in mainframe and I'm worried about the future because employers
want people with all the experience but they wanna to pay like newbies.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Scott Ford]

Guys,
Exactly, a z/OS system isnt a PC ...and not JAVA

Scott

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Ricardo Gomez Ramirez 
wrote:

> 2015-11-26 5:51 GMT-06:00 John McKown :​
>
> That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the
> > company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
> > have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
> > understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage
> > company or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a
> > problem. Too bad, for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and
> you
> > can't just unplug a programmer from one job and plug him into another,
> > unlike a light bulb or a lamp.
>
>
> Definitely I can not be more agree with you, I'm 39 with 21 years of
> experience in mainframe and I'm worried about the future because employers
> want people with all the experience but they wanna to pay like newbies.
>
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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Thomas Kern]

Unfortunately, where I work if it isn't a Windows PC it just isn't a 
real computer.


/Tom Kern

On 11/29/2015 13:09, Scott Ford wrote:

Guys,
Exactly, a z/OS system isnt a PC ...and not JAVA

Scott

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Ricardo Gomez Ramirez 
wrote:


2015-11-26 5:51 GMT-06:00 John McKown :​

That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the

company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage
company or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a
problem. Too bad, for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and

you

can't just unplug a programmer from one job and plug him into another,
unlike a light bulb or a lamp.


Definitely I can not be more agree with you, I'm 39 with 21 years of
experience in mainframe and I'm worried about the future because employers
want people with all the experience but they wanna to pay like newbies.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[John Clifford]

Bingo !!


John Clifford
Sr z/OS Systems programmer

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Bobbie Justice <
0013e2d84072-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> There's not really a shortage of IBM mainframe talent.
>
> There is a shortage of talent that is willing to work for peanuts.
>
> Bobbie Justice
> Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
>
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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Bobbie Justice]

There's not really a shortage of IBM mainframe talent. 

There is a shortage of talent that is willing to work for peanuts. 

Bobbie Justice
Senior z/OS Systems Engineer

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[John McKown]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:37 PM, esst...@juno.com  wrote:

> From my personal observation I don't see a shortage of Mainframe Skills.
> I do see companies not willing to pay for an experience skill set. In to
> days economic climate business are very reluctant to hire staff positions,
> they would rather invest in contractors.
>

​That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the
company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage
company or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a
problem. Too bad, for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and you
can't just unplug a programmer from one job and plug him into another,
unlike a light bulb or a lamp.

The company wants to only be an insurance company. They are outsourcing
I.T. infrastructure. They have already outsourced the DBA function, new
business data entry, and claims data entry. I'm not sure about the
applications themselves. I do know that the software for the agents is
actually written by programmers in the agency company, as opposed to the
insurance / underwriting company (us).

 .

> .
> Just my observation.
>
>
-- 

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[John McKown]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:17 PM, John Mattson 
wrote:

> My personal experience.  I'm 67, laid off after 18 years May 2014,
> consultant with raise Sept 2014, Hired away with raise Aug 2015.  Yes,
> there is work to be had.  More so if you are able to travel and/or
> re-locate, but I am seeing more notices for work-from-home.  PS, once you
> are on Medicare, most company"benefits" are worth very little to you, so
> you might as well consult.
>
>
​Unfortunately for me, I'm "in the hole". I'll be 63 when the company gets
rid of me. Likely too old to get hired somewhere else, too young for
Medicare. Oh well, maybe a massive heart attack is the answer. Too bad I
passed my nuclear stress test with flying colors. ​


-- 

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

John McKown wrote:

>​Unfortunately for me, I'm "in the hole". I'll be 63 when the company gets rid 
>of me. Likely too old to get hired somewhere else, too young for Medicare. 

Same here in Sunny South Africa. Generally retirement age is about 60 years, 
but you can retire at 55 - 65 years depending on approval from employer and 
employee and your health and productivity/performance status.

Oldies just can't get jobs, you'll have to be creative (moonlighting, extra 
classes, private services, contracting, etc.) to earn some money.


About that "hole". You get two such "holes" in your life - First one, after you 
get out of school and trying to get work somehow - but the catch 22 thing is - 
"they" want experienced guys/gals, but how do you get experience in the first 
place?

One way to solve is to try to do some charity or free work, apparently 
employers like that, but I see no proof that it can work.

Then your "hole", which is the second one, but that one is more frustrating 
because you need to plan for at least 10-20 years, while your money is being 
vacuumed up by all those hungry vultures...

Ok, let us go back about 'shortage of Mainframe Skills'. 

Here "they" want experienced skilled professionals, but "they" are too cheap to 
pay properly. Hence the 'virtual' shortage of skills. And the skilled persons 
just go overseas for a better future.

It is a Cruel Crazy Beautiful world... (apologies to the singer Johnny Clegg...)

Part of that song ...

"You have to wash with the crocodile in the river
You have to swim with the sharks in the sea
You have to live with the crooked politician
Trust those things that you can never see"

(From: http://www.johnnyclegg.com/lyrics/ccbw.html )

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht (48 years young...)

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[esst...@juno.com]

john McKown wrote



​That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the
company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage company 
or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a problem. Too bad, 
for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and you can't just unplug a 
programmer from one job and plug him into another, unlike a light bulb or a 
lamp.


In the New York & New Jersey area this attitude is prevalant.
Many institutions have been burned on this "plug and Play: mentality. They do 
not look at inhoues I.T. personal as ASSESETS.
I suspect its due to the younger management.  
.


The company wants to only be an insurance company. They are outsourcing I.T. 
infrastructure. They have already outsourced the DBA function, new business 
data entry, and claims data entry. I'm not sure about the applications 
themselves. I do know that the software for the agents is actually written by 
programmers in the agency company, as opposed to the insurance / underwriting 
company (us).



I can understand this methodology and to some degree makes sense. However in my 
experience It has never been a proven long term strategy.
.
.


-- Original Message --
From: John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 05:51:36 -0600

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 5:37 PM, esst...@juno.com <esst...@juno.com> wrote:

> From my personal observation I don't see a shortage of Mainframe Skills.
> I do see companies not willing to pay for an experience skill set. In to
> days economic climate business are very reluctant to hire staff positions,
> they would rather invest in contractors.
>

​That's definitely true at the company I'm working for. Basically, the
company wants "ad hoc" workers for some project. But they don't seem to
have any concern about "maintenance" or having people on staff who
understand how things work. They want I.T. to be like the water/sewage
company or electricity. Or maybe like plumbers. Call when you have a
problem. Too bad, for them, that I.T. tends to be more "customized" and you
can't just unplug a programmer from one job and plug him into another,
unlike a light bulb or a lamp.

The company wants to only be an insurance company. They are outsourcing
I.T. infrastructure. They have already outsourced the DBA function, new
business data entry, and claims data entry. I'm not sure about the
applications themselves. I do know that the software for the agents is
actually written by programmers in the agency company, as opposed to the
insurance / underwriting company (us).

 .

> .
> Just my observation.
>
>
-- 

Schrodinger's backup: The condition of any backup is unknown until a
restore is attempted.

Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.

He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market

[esst...@juno.com]

Steve Beaver wrote
"And I cover all zOS Systems, ACF2, RACF, TSS, CICS, DB2, IMS/DB-DC, Cobol, 
PL/I and Assembler."


I HATE THIS !
This is not a software specialist - it is a software Inventory
I have been known to respond to recruiters like this. And Yes the recruiters 
take too much, it partially due to out sources from other counteries bidding 
too low on contracts. They do not play by the same rules as the US contracters 
- so how can one compete ?
.
.
  

-- Original Message --
From: Steve Beaver <st...@stevebeaver.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:15:02 -0800

It's not the business doesn't want to pay.  The middle men/head hunters want
to keep a 2.5 to 1 ratio

If they pay you $60 they charge the customer $150.  I've also told these
middle men/head hunters, unless you
Personally can to the job you can have $30 per hour and I will take the $120
and they get more that a little
Upset.

And I cover all zOS Systems, ACF2, RACF, TSS, CICS, DB2, IMS/DB-DC, Cobol,
PL/I and Assembler.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of esst...@juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market

We had a 71 Year old z/OS System Programmer take an early retirement
package. After 6 Months he was bored, so he took a contracting position with
an IBM customer. He lives in New Jersey and the data center is in Florida.
There is plenty of work around its just that Business don't want to PAY
$$.


-- Original Message --
From: David Speake <david.spe...@bcbssc.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM Mainframe JOB market
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:38:31 -0600

Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM mainframe
talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  Suspect that, if
true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any comment on  this
rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very recently
hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, also 71,
retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  still
have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   
less fortunate. 
   

Sorry, got distracted just before sending previous post.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Tony Harminc]

On 26 November 2015 at 06:51, John McKown  wrote:
>
> The company wants to only be an insurance company. They are outsourcing
> I.T. infrastructure. They have already outsourced the DBA function, new
> business data entry, and claims data entry. I'm not sure about the
> applications themselves. I do know that the software for the agents is
> actually written by programmers in the agency company, as opposed to the
> insurance / underwriting company (us).

So, um, what's left of an insurance company once it's outsourced all
the data related functions?  It's not like a company that bangs out
widgets on a production line; the data is everything. Insurance is
about pooling risk, and an insurance *company* exists to make a profit
on pooling risk. Why would such a company need more than a CEO and a
couple of actuaries on the payroll? Probably those could be outsourced
too, saving even more money.

Tony H.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[Jack J. Woehr]

esst...@juno.com wrote:

Many institutions have been burned on this "plug and Play: mentality. They do 
not look at inhoues I.T. personal as ASSESETS.
It's true in IT all over. A company I consult to has gotten rather large being the plug-in for big biz companies in the 
Linux/Windows hosted cloud application space

that really can't afford a full IT department any more.

Sounds like an entrepreneurial opportunity. Go thee oldster to it and form the 
plug-and-play company.

I'm sort of drifting that way myself with my java-coded language that unifies Linux-based operations for i Series OS and 
z/VM.


--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of
www.well.com/~jax # thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe
www.softwoehr.com # with a fine understanding of human fallibility. - Carl Sagan

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Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market

[esst...@juno.com]

We had a 71 Year old z/OS System Programmer take an early retirement package. 
After 6 Months he was bored, so he took a contracting position with an IBM 
customer. He lives in New Jersey and the data center is in Florida. There is 
plenty of work around its just that Business don't want to PAY $$.


-- Original Message --
From: David Speake <david.spe...@bcbssc.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM Mainframe JOB market
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:38:31 -0600

Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM    
mainframe talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  
Suspect that, if true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any   
comment on  this rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very  
recently hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, 
also 71, retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  
still have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   
less fortunate. 
   

Sorry, got distracted just before sending previous post.

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[william janulin]

I heard that...
 


On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 6:22 PM, David Speake 
<david.spe...@bcbssc.com> wrote:
 

 Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM        
mainframe talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have      
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.                  
Suspect that, if true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned      
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any              
comment on  this rumor. I am 71 years old and the same                  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very          
recently hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on              
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend,    
also 71, retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that      
still have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others          
less fortunate.                                                        


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Re: IBM Mainframe

[John Mattson]

My personal experience.  I'm 67, laid off after 18 years May 2014,
consultant with raise Sept 2014, Hired away with raise Aug 2015.  Yes,
there is work to be had.  More so if you are able to travel and/or
re-locate, but I am seeing more notices for work-from-home.  PS, once you
are on Medicare, most company"benefits" are worth very little to you, so
you might as well consult.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:37 PM, esst...@juno.com <esst...@juno.com> wrote:

> From my personal observation I don't see a shortage of Mainframe Skills.=
>
> I do see companies not willing to pay for an experience skill set. In to=
>  days economic climate business are very reluctant to hire staff positio=
> ns, they would rather invest in contractors.
> =2E
> =2E
> Just my observation.
>
>   =
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: David Speake <david.spe...@bcbssc.com>
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: IBM Mainframe
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:22:11 -0600
>
> Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM=
> =
>
> mainframe talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   =
> =
>
> not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  =
> =
>
> Suspect that, if true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   =
> =
>
> rather quickly through October and November archives. Any   =
> =
>
> comment on  this rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  =
> =
>
> source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very  =
> =
>
> recently hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  =
> =
>
> his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, =
> =
>
> also 71, retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business =
> =
>
> venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  =
> =
>
> still have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   =
> =
>
> less fortunate. =
> =
>
> =
> =
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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>

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Re: IBM Mainframe

[esst...@juno.com]

>From my personal observation I don't see a shortage of Mainframe Skills.
I do see companies not willing to pay for an experience skill set. In to days 
economic climate business are very reluctant to hire staff positions, they 
would rather invest in contractors.
.
.
Just my observation.

  

-- Original Message --
From: David Speake <david.spe...@bcbssc.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM Mainframe
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:22:11 -0600

Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM
mainframe talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  
Suspect that, if true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any   
comment on  this rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very  
recently hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, 
also 71, retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  
still have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   
less fortunate. 


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IBM Mainframe JOB market

[David Speake]

Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM
mainframe talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  
Suspect that, if true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any   
comment on  this rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very  
recently hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, 
also 71, retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  
still have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   
less fortunate. 
   

Sorry, got distracted just before sending previous post.

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Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market

[Steve Beaver]

It's not the business doesn't want to pay.  The middle men/head hunters want
to keep a 2.5 to 1 ratio

If they pay you $60 they charge the customer $150.  I've also told these
middle men/head hunters, unless you
Personally can to the job you can have $30 per hour and I will take the $120
and they get more that a little
Upset.

And I cover all zOS Systems, ACF2, RACF, TSS, CICS, DB2, IMS/DB-DC, Cobol,
PL/I and Assembler.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of esst...@juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe JOB market

We had a 71 Year old z/OS System Programmer take an early retirement
package. After 6 Months he was bored, so he took a contracting position with
an IBM customer. He lives in New Jersey and the data center is in Florida.
There is plenty of work around its just that Business don't want to PAY
$$.


-- Original Message --
From: David Speake <david.spe...@bcbssc.com>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM Mainframe JOB market
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:38:31 -0600

Last Friday I was told that there is a desperate shortage of IBM mainframe
talent at most all skill levels and specialties. I have   
not done my homework, say on Monster.com or otherwise.  Suspect that, if
true, it would be a hot topic here. So I scanned   
rather quickly through October and November archives. Any comment on  this
rumor. I am 71 years old and the same  
source cheered me a bit by noting that a local outfit had very recently
hired an 81 year old COBOL programmer. No info on  
his experience nor more importantly his skill level. A Good friend, also 71,
retired and then lost his entire retirement in failed business 
venture. Hope the rumor is true. Job security for those of us that  still
have them and maybe hope for him and some of the others   
less fortunate. 
   

Sorry, got distracted just before sending previous post.

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Re: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to Closed

[william janulin]

I did not know there was a mainframe professionals facebook group.I use 
linkedin for all my professional contacts. 
 


 On Thursday, November 5, 2015 12:34 PM, Steve Beaver 
<st...@stevebeaver.com> wrote:
   

 First time I've seen it

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of David Cole
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 6:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to
Closed

Just now, I received this message:

><https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php=661409294=144673177284
>1597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2
>e=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>Satish
>Kumar changed the privacy of the group 
><https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F15888095404%2F=1446731772841
>597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2
>=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>IBM
>mainframe Professionals from Public to Closed

I'm curious... Does anyone know why this was done?




Dave Cole
ColeSoft Marketing
414 Third Street, NE
Charlottesville, VA 22902
EADDRESS:    <mailto:dbc...@colesoft.com>dbc...@colesoft.com

Home page:  www.colesoft.com
LinkedIn:    www.xdc.com
Facebook:    www.facebook.com/colesoftware
YouTube:    www.youtube.com/user/colesoftware  

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Re: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to Closed

[Steve Beaver]

First time I've seen it

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of David Cole
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 6:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to
Closed

Just now, I received this message:

><https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php=661409294=144673177284
>1597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2
>e=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>Satish
>Kumar changed the privacy of the group 
><https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F15888095404%2F=1446731772841
>597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2
>=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>IBM
>mainframe Professionals from Public to Closed

I'm curious... Does anyone know why this was done?




Dave Cole
ColeSoft Marketing
414 Third Street, NE
Charlottesville, VA 22902
EADDRESS:<mailto:dbc...@colesoft.com>dbc...@colesoft.com

Home page:   www.colesoft.com
LinkedIn:www.xdc.com
Facebook:www.facebook.com/colesoftware
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/colesoftware  

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Re: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to Closed

[Charles Mills]

Yeah. Mainframe professionals Facebook is kind of an oxymoron. 

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of william janulin
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 9:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public 
to Closed

I did not know there was a mainframe professionals facebook group.I use 
linkedin for all my professional contacts. 
 

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IBM mainframe Professionals (Facebook Group) changed from Public to Closed

[David Cole]

Just now, I received this message:

<https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php=661409294=1446731772841597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>Satish 
Kumar changed the privacy of the group 
<https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F15888095404%2F=1446731772841597=email=523cb33d1cbabG2cb215c6G523cb7d67ce7dG90G8ae2=1.1446731778.AbnvS19rm2Lgf0B-_m=dbcole%40gmail.com>IBM 
mainframe Professionals from Public to Closed


I'm curious... Does anyone know why this was done?




Dave Cole
ColeSoft Marketing
414 Third Street, NE
Charlottesville, VA 22902
EADDRESS:<mailto:dbc...@colesoft.com>dbc...@colesoft.com

Home page:   www.colesoft.com
LinkedIn:www.xdc.com
Facebook:www.facebook.com/colesoftware
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/colesoftware  


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Norbert Friemel]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015 12:43:23 +0200, R.S. wrote:

 Has anyone a photo of 3088?

https://ia902603.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/29/items/bitsavers_ibm370feGCEquipmentInstallationPhysicalPlanningMar_20235151/GC22-7064-13_Input_Output_Equipment_Installation_Physical_Planning_Mar93_jp2.zipfile=GC22-7064-13_Input_Output_Equipment_Installation_Physical_Planning_Mar93_jp2/GC22-7064-13_Input_Output_Equipment_Installation_Physical_Planning_Mar93_0023.jp2scale=4rotate=0

or
page 24 (3088-1) 
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/fe/GC22-7064-13_Input_Output_Equipment_Installation_Physical_Planning_Mar93.pdf

Norbert Friemel
 

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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[R.S.]

Has anyone a photo of 3088?

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






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GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

David Crayford wrote:

This is a nice bit of nostalgia as I started my career as an Op back in the 
80's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps

I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 3380, 
3090, 3420 and such animals.

But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all [useless] info 
about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details about that device.

Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the XCF and 
such things?

TIA!

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Ted MacNEIL]

Now I remember!
In 1981, I had to go in when I was on nights (mornings) and switch all the 
printers over.

-
-teD
-
  Original Message  
From: Norman.Hollander
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:17
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Reply To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

3088 Multi-System Channel-to-Channel I/O Control Unit. Bus and Tag, connecting 
4 CPUs (IIRC).
We used these (had to have 2 for redundancy) for JES2, VTAM, and CA-MIM 
connectivity. Also
used to connect to VM systems (PVM, RSCS, and CA-MIM). Obsoleted by ESCON and 
Directors.
May have a picture somewhere with a 3088 and 9032 (ESCON director). Without the 
3088, you
needed many dedicated channels on each processor.

zNorman

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 7:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

Yep. That's it. Thanks for remembering. We were still using one when I left my 
previous position in 1995 with a 3090 400E processor.

Mark Jacobs

 Gross, Randall [PRI-1PP] mailto:randy.gr...@primerica.com
 June 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM
 IBM 3088 CTC

 Global Resource Serialization

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
 On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
 Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:02 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 
 80s)

 I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Mark Jacobs - Listserv mailto:mark.jac...@custserv.com June 12, 2015 
 at 10:02 AM I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

 I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
 3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.

 But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

 Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
 [useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
 about that device.

 Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
 XCF and such things?

 TIA!

 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
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Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Norman.Hollander]

3088 Multi-System Channel-to-Channel I/O Control Unit.  Bus and Tag, connecting 
4 CPUs (IIRC).
We used these (had to have 2 for redundancy) for JES2, VTAM, and CA-MIM 
connectivity. Also
used to connect to VM systems (PVM, RSCS, and CA-MIM). Obsoleted by ESCON and 
Directors.
May have a picture somewhere with a 3088 and 9032 (ESCON director).  Without 
the 3088, you
needed many dedicated channels on each processor.

zNorman

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 7:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

Yep. That's it. Thanks for remembering.  We were still using one when I left my 
previous position in 1995 with a 3090 400E processor.

Mark Jacobs

 Gross, Randall [PRI-1PP] mailto:randy.gr...@primerica.com
 June 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM
 IBM 3088 CTC

 Global Resource Serialization

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
 On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
 Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:02 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 
 80s)

 I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Mark Jacobs - Listserv mailto:mark.jac...@custserv.com June 12, 2015 
 at 10:02 AM I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

 I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
 3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.

 But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

 Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
 [useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
 about that device.

 Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
 XCF and such things?

 TIA!

 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
 email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


 Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information 
 or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a 
 phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
 the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.


-- 

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Gross, Randall [PRI-1PP]]

IBM 3088 CTC

Global Resource Serialization

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC communications using 
bus and tag cables.

Mark Jacobs

 Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

 I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
 3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.

 But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

 Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
 [useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
 about that device.

 Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
 XCF and such things?

 TIA!

 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
 email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


 Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information 
 or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a 
 phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
 the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.


-- 

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Richard Pinion wrote:
The IBM mainframe emulator Hercules has CTC 3088 functionality.  I think that 
is used for TCP/IP.

Mark Jacobs wrote:
Yep. That's it. Thanks for remembering.  We were still using one when I left 
my previous position in 1995 with a 3090 400E processor.

Gross, Randall wrote:
 IBM 3088 CTC

That is it! Thanks to all.

Now to return to you. There is a 11 MB, 256 pages, PDF with this name: 

'GC22-7064-10_IO_Equipment_Installation_Physical_Planning_Jul86.pdf'

Just Google it and you will get many copies of that PDF in various sites 
including the one bitsavers for example.

example: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/fe/

That PDF describes this thing on page 18 and other equipment too. Photos 
(somewhat bad but Ok) are also included.

The top of the 3088 described in the doc matches the one in the YouTube video.

Oh, z/VM and many other IBM products currently available still support that 
device for backward compatibility purposes.

Thanks again!

Groete / Greeting
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Richard Pinion]

The IBM mainframe emulator Hercules has CTC 3088 functionality.  I think
that is used for TCP/IP.



--- mark.jac...@custserv.com wrote:

From: Mark Jacobs - Listserv mark.jac...@custserv.com
To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:09:45 -0400

Yep. That's it. Thanks for remembering.  We were still using one when I 
left my previous position in 1995 with a 3090 400E processor.

Mark Jacobs

 Gross, Randall [PRI-1PP] mailto:randy.gr...@primerica.com
 June 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM
 IBM 3088 CTC

 Global Resource Serialization

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
 On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
 Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:02 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

 I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Mark Jacobs - Listserv mailto:mark.jac...@custserv.com
 June 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM
 I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
 communications using bus and tag cables.

 Mark Jacobs


 Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

 I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
 3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.

 But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

 Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
 [useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
 about that device.

 Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
 XCF and such things?

 TIA!

 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


 Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information 
 or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a 
 phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
 the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.


-- 

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.

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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Tom Marchant]

On Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:17:31 -0700, Norman.Hollander wrote:

3088 Multi-System Channel-to-Channel I/O Control Unit. 
Bus and Tag, connecting 4 CPUs (IIRC).

I thought I remembered 8 channel connections. I found this in the 
OS/390 2.10 GRS Planning manual:

Model A1 can connect two systems through up to 63 data links.
Model 1 can connect up to four systems through up to 126 data links.
Model 2 can connect up to eight systems through up to 252 data links.

ISTR it was sometimes referred to as an octopus.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Mark Jacobs - Listserv]

I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
communications using bus and tag cables.


Mark Jacobs


Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.


But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
[useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
about that device.


Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
XCF and such things?


TIA!

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

--
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phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.




--

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[Mark Jacobs - Listserv]

Yep. That's it. Thanks for remembering.  We were still using one when I 
left my previous position in 1995 with a 3090 400E processor.


Mark Jacobs


Gross, Randall [PRI-1PP] mailto:randy.gr...@primerica.com
June 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM
IBM 3088 CTC

Global Resource Serialization

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
On Behalf Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
communications using bus and tag cables.


Mark Jacobs


Mark Jacobs - Listserv mailto:mark.jac...@custserv.com
June 12, 2015 at 10:02 AM
I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC 
communications using bus and tag cables.


Mark Jacobs


Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.


But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
[useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
about that device.


Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
XCF and such things?


TIA!

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

--
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phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.




--

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

[J. Pohlmann]

I think it was a 3088

Regards,

Joerg Pohlmann

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
Sent: June 12, 2015 07:02
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: GRS Control Unit ( Was IBM mainframe operations in the 80s)

I don't remember the device number but it was used for CTC communications using 
bus and tag cables.

Mark Jacobs

 Elardus Engelbrecht mailto:elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 June 12, 2015 at 9:53 AM

 I have watched that nice video, bringing back memories of those 3800, 
 3380, 3090, 3420 and such animals.

 But what the four letter word is a 'GRS Control Unit'?

 Searches on IBM webpages (and history webpages) gave me just all 
 [useless] info about GRS or CONTROL or UNIT, but not specific details 
 about that device.

 Anyone having a clue what device is it? Is it the grandfather of the 
 XCF and such things?

 TIA!

 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
 email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


 Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information 
 or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a 
 phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send 
 the original message as an attachment to 'phish...@timeinc.com'.


-- 

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Technology and Product Engineering

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[David Crayford]

This is a nice bit of nostalgia as I started my career as an Op back in 
the 80's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps

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Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[Vince Coen]

On 11/06/15 20:30, Ken Hume IBM wrote:

So, the shoot coordinator goes off and finds three or four young,
attractive women that were well dressed and brings them into the
computer room. Most of them had no idea what a computer was. All of them
complained that the room was to cold and did not want to stay in there.

We had a good laugh and the publication looked pretty good as well.

Ahh.. The old days...




Referring to tight nipples ?


Vince

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Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[Mike Schwab]

http://www.conmicro.com/apple-mstcons-web.jpg

Jay Maynard's unusual master console.

-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[Steve Coalbran]

NICE!
I remember it well...!
Give me a 3279, SNA-attached with SSRT (Remember that?! 
SubSecondRespondTime?!)
Eat your heart out TCP/IP+LDAP+CITRIX+?!=CTRT (CoffeeTimeResponseTime)!
Then we could really work fast!? and yer try and tell the young folk of 
today... [https://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo] :-D  



From:   David Crayford dcrayf...@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   2015-06-11 14:35
Subject:IBM mainframe operations in the 80s
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU



This is a nice bit of nostalgia as I started my career as an Op back in 
the 80's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps

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Såvida annat inte anges ovan: / Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM Svenska AB
Organisationsnummer: 556026-6883
Adress: 164 92 Stockholm

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Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[Scott Ford]

The wayback machine ...80s , just entered Systems Programming..in
Operations in the 70s before...man

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Steve Coalbran coal...@se.ibm.com wrote:

 NICE!
 I remember it well...!
 Give me a 3279, SNA-attached with SSRT (Remember that?!
 SubSecondRespondTime?!)
 Eat your heart out TCP/IP+LDAP+CITRIX+?!=CTRT (CoffeeTimeResponseTime)!
 Then we could really work fast!? and yer try and tell the young folk of
 today... [https://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo] :-D



 From:   David Crayford dcrayf...@gmail.com
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Date:   2015-06-11 14:35
 Subject:IBM mainframe operations in the 80s
 Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU



 This is a nice bit of nostalgia as I started my career as an Op back in
 the 80's.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps

 --
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 Såvida annat inte anges ovan: / Unless stated otherwise above:
 IBM Svenska AB
 Organisationsnummer: 556026-6883
 Adress: 164 92 Stockholm

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Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

[Ken Hume IBM]

I remember one time back in the mid-80's The company I worked for was 
doing an annual report and a new customer system we had written and 
implemented was going to be featured in that publication.


In came the photographers and and lights and the cameras. You can imagine 
how the operators looked. Jeans, t-shirts, tennis shoes, etc. As the lead 
operator I had on khakis and a button down collar shirt but no tie. Well, 
that couldn't be shown!!! Never


So, the shoot coordinator goes off and finds three or four young, attractive 
women that were well dressed and brings them into the computer room. Most of 
them had no idea what a computer was. All of them complained that the room 
was to cold and did not want to stay in there.


We had a good laugh and the publication looked pretty good as well.

Ahh.. The old days...

Ken

-Original Message- 
From: Scott Ford

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:05 PM Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM mainframe operations in the 80s

The wayback machine ...80s , just entered Systems Programming..in
Operations in the 70s before...man

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Steve Coalbran coal...@se.ibm.com wrote:


NICE!
I remember it well...!
Give me a 3279, SNA-attached with SSRT (Remember that?!
SubSecondRespondTime?!)
Eat your heart out TCP/IP+LDAP+CITRIX+?!=CTRT (CoffeeTimeResponseTime)!
Then we could really work fast!? and yer try and tell the young folk of
today... [https://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo] :-D



From:   David Crayford dcrayf...@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date:   2015-06-11 14:35
Subject:IBM mainframe operations in the 80s
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU



This is a nice bit of nostalgia as I started my career as an Op back in
the 80's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps

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Adress: 164 92 Stockholm

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Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Jose Munoz]

Gents,

Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System college
arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to answer it:


oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes with 1
Billion (Giga) Hashes/second on a single stock clocked hd6990 graphics
card: http://pastebin.com/Cqdhe3kR

I didn't expect IBM's Mainframe password hashing to be so weak :(
In comparison, the SHA512 hash is cracked at 0.217 BH/s (GH/s) on the same
graphics card: http://hashcat.net/oclhashcat/

If you don't know what's oclHashcat, it's a program that cracks password
hashes using graphics cards (GPUs). The link above shows how many
algorithms are supported and a sample of the speed that some are cracked at
depending on the GPU setup.





-- 
Regards
Jose Munoz
Senior IT Architect
(+965) 99925167
Kuwait

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:19:25 +0300, Jose Munoz wrote:

Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System college
arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to answer it:

Well, first you need to access the encrypted password file, and/or bypass the
prevalent three-strikes-and-out rule.

oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes with 1
Billion (Giga) Hashes/second on a single stock clocked hd6990 graphics
card: http://pastebin.com/Cqdhe3kR

I didn't expect IBM's Mainframe password hashing to be so weak :(
In comparison, the SHA512 hash is cracked at 0.217 BH/s (GH/s) on the same
graphics card: http://hashcat.net/oclhashcat/
 
Order of hours (Fermi estimate).  Has there been a realistic White Hat test
in either environment?

-- gil

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[R.S.]

W dniu 2014-03-18 07:19, Jose Munoz pisze:

Gents,

Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System college
arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to answer it:


oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes with 1
Billion (Giga) Hashes/second on a single stock clocked hd6990 graphics
card: http://pastebin.com/Cqdhe3kR

I didn't expect IBM's Mainframe password hashing to be so weak :(
In comparison, the SHA512 hash is cracked at 0.217 BH/s (GH/s) on the same
graphics card: http://hashcat.net/oclhashcat/

If you don't know what's oclHashcat, it's a program that cracks password
hashes using graphics cards (GPUs). The link above shows how many
algorithms are supported and a sample of the speed that some are cracked at
depending on the GPU setup.








It's perfectly knownthat one can guess RACF password using brute force 
method. It only matter of time, computing power per engine, number of of 
engines (*).

Last, but definitely not least: attacker has to have your RACF db.
So, the prevention is easy; at least easy to say: you have to protect 
your RACF db (and all copies/backups).


So, what changed with the tools you mentioned? Another world record?



BTW: IBM announced new password encryption method in future releases.


(*) Linear scalability is good assumption for reasonably smallnumber of 
engines, for tens of thousands negines things can be more complicated.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Jose Munoz wrote:

Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System college 
arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to answer it:

I'm not surprised. As a RACF person, I sometimes receive e-mails from spammers 
and wannabe crackers trying to 'advise me' on a lot of things. ;-)


oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes with 1 
Billion (Giga) Hashes/second on a single stock clocked hd6990 graphics card

How did they tested it? Obtained a real copy of RACF DB and do your cracking?


I didn't expect IBM's Mainframe password hashing to be so weak :(

It may be, in fact over the years, there are 'cracking' tools available to do a 
brute force attack. Pick one and do your crack.

But as others said, you have first to obtain a copy of the RACF db somehow and 
then do your attack. And then there is that 3 strike rule too.

A competent network person will trap your IP address if you try to attack a 
live system and block you out. It has been done and we have procedures to do 
that.


If you don't know what's oclHashcat, it's a program that cracks password 
hashes using graphics cards (GPUs). The link above shows how many algorithms 
are supported and a sample of the speed that some are cracked at depending on 
the GPU setup.

It only tells me one thing - cracking is a serious business for years long. Is 
it a legal White Hat test or some nefarious underground group trying to 'test 
out' systems (including z/OS) for fun/scientific reason/criminal reason?


I'm more concerned about INSIDERS trying to do 'strange' transactions.

BTW, Radoslaw said IBM announced a new password encryption algorithm.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
cakspfostlizlcvvj1v1hzcxow3n8slsm8gfdu+u4buwawhl...@mail.gmail.com,
on 03/18/2014
   at 09:19 AM, Jose Munoz jmunoz6...@gmail.com said:

Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System
college arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to
answer it:

The Devil is in the details. Strip the BS and what they are saying is
that if you ignore the standard security recommendations for MVS then
you will have security problems.

oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes

That presumes read access to it.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Lou Losee]

I also wonder if they truly mean password hashes, as in the ancient RACF
password hash methods, or the more commonly used encryption method of
securing passwords or to be more technically correct, user ids.

--
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
  - Unknown


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:

 In
 cakspfostlizlcvvj1v1hzcxow3n8slsm8gfdu+u4buwawhl...@mail.gmail.com,
 on 03/18/2014
at 09:19 AM, Jose Munoz jmunoz6...@gmail.com said:

 Someone can comment on it, I received an email from an Open System
 college arguing that mainframe is very weak...please help me to
 answer it:

 The Devil is in the details. Strip the BS and what they are saying is
 that if you ignore the standard security recommendations for MVS then
 you will have security problems.

 oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes

 That presumes read access to it.

 --
  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
  ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html
 We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
 (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[R.S.]

W dniu 2014-03-18 12:56, Elardus Engelbrecht pisze:
I'm not surprised. As a RACF person, I sometimes receive e-mails from 
spammers and wannabe crackers trying to 'advise me' on a lot of 
things. ;-) 
Well, in my case the statndard is nobody even heard about RACF. So I 
receive no comments or advices, even those wise. :-(



oclHashcat v1.20 support added to crack RACF (IBM mainframe) hashes with 1 
Billion (Giga) Hashes/second on a single stock clocked hd6990 graphics card

How did they tested it? Obtained a real copy of RACF DB and do your cracking?
I bet, yes. Do you want real copy of RACF db? I'll create it for you. 
Tell me the usernames and passwords you want to have.


It may be, in fact over the years, there are 'cracking' tools 
available to do a brute force attack. Pick one and do your crack. But 
as others said, you have first to obtain a copy of the RACF db somehow 
and then do your attack. And then there is that 3 strike rule too. A 
competent network person will trap your IP address if you try to 
attack a live system and block you out. It has been done and we have 
procedures to do that. 

If you have the copy, the rule of 'n strikes' won't work.
The same for IP blocking.
BTW: how do you block IP address ot the attacker?  What type of attacks 
are considered ?




It only tells me one thing - cracking is a serious business for years long. Is 
it a legal White Hat test or some nefarious underground group trying to 'test 
out' systems (including z/OS) for fun/scientific reason/criminal reason?

The real reason is in fact irrelevant, the relevant are
a) intention you present (and can prove it)
b) local law. In US there is DMCA. In many countries you can crack any 
security as long it's your lock, test environment, etc. In toehr words, 
you can freely create any tool you like (except weapon).




I'm more concerned about INSIDERS trying to do 'strange' transactions.

Almost all brute force against RACF require participation f insider.


Regards

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






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permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to 
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mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl 
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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

 How did they tested it? Obtained a real copy of RACF DB and do your cracking?
I bet, yes. Do you want real copy of RACF db? I'll create it for you. 
Tell me the usernames and passwords you want to have.

I'm too lazy to do that, I'll have rather mow my lawn. ;-D


If you have the copy, the rule of 'n strikes' won't work.

True.


BTW: how do you block IP address ot the attacker?  What type of attacks are 
considered ?

Any type. We have experienced some attacks with well known ids/password 
combinations. We shut down the application and blocked the IP addresses. One 
auditor tried using audit tools to ping IP addresses and ports using well known 
names like SYSTEM, IBMUSER, etc. My network guy got really annoyed+p*ssed off 
and blocked the auditor. This led to complaints that the auditor can't do his 
work. My network guy got the final word: that if any penetration test is to be 
done, it has to be done as scheduled without disrupting production work. ;-)

 I'm more concerned about INSIDERS trying to do 'strange' transactions.
Almost all brute force against RACF require participation f insider.

Indeed. All tools I know, ask you that you download as INSIDER the RACF DB to 
your workstation and then do your crack.


Regards

Thanks. The same to you too! ;-D

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Andrew Rowley]

On 19/03/2014 0:51, Lou Losee wrote:

I also wonder if they truly mean password hashes, as in the ancient RACF
password hash methods, or the more commonly used encryption method of
securing passwords or to be more technically correct, user ids.


I'm sure it is using the encryption method. The speed of password 
cracking on GPUs is fast enough that most hashes are vulnerable using 
traditional length passwords. RACF might be worse than some because the 
algorithm might not be specifically designed to be slow - I don't know.


The answer is to assume that anybody who can read the encrypted 
passwords of a system (password database, backups etc.) can crack some 
or all of them. RACF is no different to other systems in that regard. 
This isn't news - it has been SOP for as long as I have been in the 
industry.


An interesting article on the subject:
http://blog.codinghorror.com/speed-hashing/

Andrew Rowley

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Anne Lynn Wheeler]

and...@blackhillsoftware.com (Andrew Rowley) writes:
 I'm sure it is using the encryption method. The speed of password
 cracking on GPUs is fast enough that most hashes are vulnerable using
 traditional length passwords. RACF might be worse than some because
 the algorithm might not be specifically designed to be slow - I don't
 know.

 The answer is to assume that anybody who can read the encrypted
 passwords of a system (password database, backups etc.) can crack some
 or all of them. RACF is no different to other systems in that
 regard. This isn't news - it has been SOP for as long as I have been
 in the industry.

also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password_cracking

things were speeded up some when repositories of tens of thousand
of the most common passwords were published.

some countermeasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28cryptography%29

simple search engine turns up how to crack racf passwords
(from feb2013)
http://mainframed767.tumblr.com/post/43072129477/how-to-copy-the-racf-database-off-the-mainframe-and
also from search
http://www.toolswatch.org/2014/02/new-tool-racfsnow-password-cracker-for-racf-ibm-mainframe-v1-5-in-the-wild/


disclaimer: we have dozens of patents on non-password, non-PKI,
non-digital-certificate public key authentication
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadssummary.htm

basically recording publickey in lieu of password; we did
implementations for both radius and kerberos ... as well as some
prototype chips.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Andrew Rowley]

On 19/03/2014 9:30, Anne  Lynn Wheeler wrote:


also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password_cracking

things were speeded up some when repositories of tens of thousand
of the most common passwords were published.

some countermeasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28cryptography%29


The GPU based tools have supposedly made rainbow tables obsolete. It's 
easier to just brute force the hash. Salts are no protection against a 
brute force attack. Another article linked from the original one I posted:


http://codahale.com/how-to-safely-store-a-password/

From that article:

Rainbow tables, despite their recent popularity as a subject of blog 
posts, have not aged gracefully. CUDA/OpenCL implementations of password 
crackers can leverage the massive amount of parallelism available in 
GPUs, peaking at billions of candidate passwords a second. You can 
literally test all lowercase, alphabetic passwords which are ≤7 
characters in less than 2 seconds. And you can now rent the hardware 
which makes this possible to the tune of less than $3/hour. For about 
$300/hour, you could crack around 500,000,000,000 candidate passwords a 
second.


Given this massive shift in the economics of cryptographic attacks, it 
simply doesn’t make sense for anyone to waste terabytes of disk space in 
the hope that their victim didn’t use a salt. It’s a lot easier to just 
crack the passwords. Even a “good” hashing scheme of SHA2256(salt ∥ 
password) is still completely vulnerable to these cheap and effective 
attacks


Andrew Rowley

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Ed Gould]

On Mar 18, 2014, at 5:57 PM, Andrew Rowley wrote:


On 19/03/2014 9:30, Anne  Lynn Wheeler wrote:


also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password_cracking

things were speeded up some when repositories of tens of thousand
of the most common passwords were published.

some countermeasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_%28cryptography%29


The GPU based tools have supposedly made rainbow tables obsolete.  
It's easier to just brute force the hash. Salts are no protection  
against a brute force attack. Another article linked from the  
original one I posted:


http://codahale.com/how-to-safely-store-a-password/

From that article:

Rainbow tables, despite their recent popularity as a subject of  
blog posts, have not aged gracefully. CUDA/OpenCL implementations  
of password crackers can leverage the massive amount of parallelism  
available in GPUs, peaking at billions of candidate passwords a  
second. You can literally test all lowercase, alphabetic passwords  
which are ≤7 characters in less than 2 seconds. And you can now  
rent the hardware which makes this possible to the tune of less  
than $3/hour. For about $300/hour, you could crack around  
500,000,000,000 candidate passwords a second.


Given this massive shift in the economics of cryptographic attacks,  
it simply doesn’t make sense for anyone to waste terabytes of disk  
space in the hope that their victim didn’t use a salt. It’s a  
lot easier to just crack the passwords. Even a “good” hashing  
scheme of SHA2256(salt ∥ password) is still completely vulnerable  
to these cheap and effective attacks


Andrew Rowley



-SNIP---


I thought IBM would have spoken up before this. From what little I  
have heard is that even with the raw data (ie the RACF DB) the  
password is unable to be broken.


Ed

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Andrew Rowley]

On 19/03/2014 10:21, Ed Gould wrote:


I thought IBM would have spoken up before this. From what little I have
heard is that even with the raw data (ie the RACF DB) the password is
unable to be broken.


You can't calculate the password from the stored value - as far as I 
know that is still the case. But by definition, you need to be able to 
check a password to see if it is correct.


If you have the database, you are not limited to 3 guesses. GPU based 
programs can try potentially billions of guesses per second.


The only real defence against this is password algorithms that are slow 
(computationally expensive). And GPUs have changed the definition of 
slow. Being difficult to implement on a GPU is an advantage at the 
moment, but future developments might also make the difficult easier.


Bottom line: the password database needs to be protected. Anyone who can 
read it can potentially crack some or all of the passwords.


Andrew Rowley

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Re: Cracking IBM Mainframe Password Hashes

[Lou Losee]

The biggest problem with this is if I recall correctly, the user id is
encrypted with the password with a variant of DES that has a slight twist
from the published DES algorithm.  That is why there are two types of DES
encrypt calls in the RACROUTE REQUEST=EXTRACT macro; ENCRYPT=(data
addr,DES) and ENCRYPT=(data addr,STDDES).

The first form does RACFs variant of DES and is used for the password
encryption.  Therefore without reverse engineering the variant, a cracker
would have to use the RACROUTE macro to attempt to crack the passwords.

--
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
  - Unknown


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Andrew Rowley and...@blackhillsoftware.com
 wrote:

 On 19/03/2014 10:21, Ed Gould wrote:

  I thought IBM would have spoken up before this. From what little I have
 heard is that even with the raw data (ie the RACF DB) the password is
 unable to be broken.


 You can't calculate the password from the stored value - as far as I know
 that is still the case. But by definition, you need to be able to check a
 password to see if it is correct.

 If you have the database, you are not limited to 3 guesses. GPU based
 programs can try potentially billions of guesses per second.

 The only real defence against this is password algorithms that are slow
 (computationally expensive). And GPUs have changed the definition of slow.
 Being difficult to implement on a GPU is an advantage at the moment, but
 future developments might also make the difficult easier.

 Bottom line: the password database needs to be protected. Anyone who can
 read it can potentially crack some or all of the passwords.


 Andrew Rowley

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 +61 413 302 386

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Todd Arnold]

Two points...

(1)  Remember that when IBM invented CCA back in the late 1980s, there really 
were no other HSMs - thus, there were no other crypto architectures in the 
banking world to be compatible with.  I suppose other vendors who came along 
and developed HSMs could have adopted CCA, but they developed their own APIs 
and architectures.  IBM, of course, had no way to make our own CCA any kind of 
standard for the industry.  
 
(2)  Compatibility for interchange has always been a problem, and the solution 
for key exchange has generally been to use a least common denominator approach, 
simply wrapping keys with TDES in ECB mode with no associated type/usage 
information or other metadata.  Dissimilar systems generally strip off their 
proprietary metadata when exporting the key, then the receiving system binds 
its own proprietary metadata structures to the key when importing it.  This 
obviously is not the best approach in terms of security, but it's what everyone 
has done all these years.  Now, there is the TR-31 key block format which has 
improved somewhat on that situation, but TR-31 also has significant problems.  
It defines its own fixed set of key metadata, which of course is not entirely 
compatible with anything the preceded it and does not generally match up 
exactly with any vendor's HSM architecture, so translations have to occur and 
in the process security information is lost or interpreted differently.  
Furthermore, different vendors have interpreted the meaning of the key 
type/usage in TR-31 in different ways, so the restrictions you think you 
defined for a key may not be enforced in quite the way you thought when the key 
reaches some other device.  One example is that TR-31 has rather coarse key 
typing and usage, whereas CCA has much finer granularity and lets you control 
the key much more tightly.  When translating a CCA key to TR-31 format, all 
that extra control has to be discarded so that you use only the attributes 
defined in TR-31.  Conversely, when importing a TR-31 key into CCA, you have to 
somehow create all the extra, more detailed control attributes that are not 
present in TR-31, and the only way to do that is to let the application program 
tell CCA what to do.

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[J R]

Host Security Module.  
  Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:52:04 -0500
 From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
 Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 Todd Arnold wrote:
 
  no other HSMs - 
  vendor's HSM architecture, 
 
 What is HSM in this context?
 
 Of course, I searched before posting, but found over 270 ambiguous 
 definitions... 
 
 Groete / Greetings
 Elardus Engelbrecht
  
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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[zMan]

HARDWARE Security Module.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:09 AM, J R jayare...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Host Security Module.
   Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:52:04 -0500
  From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
  Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
  Todd Arnold wrote:
 
   no other HSMs -
   vendor's HSM architecture,
 
  What is HSM in this context?
 
  Of course, I searched before posting, but found over 270 ambiguous
 definitions...
 
  Groete / Greetings
  Elardus Engelbrecht

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-- 
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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[J R]

Correct.  Hardware Security Module is the more generic term.  

Host Security Module is the Racal/Thales offering.  Many still use the term 
generically.  

=
=
  Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:54 -0400
 From: zedgarhoo...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 HARDWARE Security Module.
 
 On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:09 AM, J R jayare...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Host Security Module.
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:52:04 -0500
   From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
   Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
   To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  
   Todd Arnold wrote:
  
no other HSMs -
vendor's HSM architecture,
  
   What is HSM in this context?
  
   Of course, I searched before posting, but found over 270 ambiguous
  definitions...
  
   Groete / Greetings
   Elardus Engelbrecht
 
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 zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it
 
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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Anne Lynn Wheeler]

jayare...@hotmail.com (J R) writes:
 Correct.  Hardware Security Module is the more generic term.  

 Host Security Module is the Racal/Thales offering.  Many still use the term 
 generically.  

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#1 IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

Last decade, I had done design for new security chip and was looking at
having it fab'ed at a new secure facility in Dresden.

In the 90s, I had semi-facetiously commented that I would take a $500
mil-spec chip, aggresively cost-reduce it by 2-3 orders of magnitude
while improving the integrity.

In walk-through/audit of the facility, they wanted to charge me several
cents to have HSM generate public-key pair and inject it into the chip
(also added a couple minutes to processing for each chip)

Since I wanted the chip well under a dollar, that several cents were
significant. I pointed out that the chip had a secure key generation
incorporated into the power-on/test cycle ... and wouldn't need HSM
processing (or the elapsed time). The secure key generation during
power-on/test cycle actually speeded up the power-on/test sequence and
the generated public key was exported as part of the power-on/test
sequence validation data (the private key would never be exported).  Not
only wouldn't I need the HSM, extra time  cost ... but shouldn't I get
a credit for speeding up the power-on/test sequence (as an aside, after
power-on/test sequence ... those circuits get destroyed).

reference to bunch of patents on the subject
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/x959.html#aads

old email discussing pgp-like public key email on the internal network
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#email810506
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email810515

other old email about public key ... mentioning The current MVS
Cryptographic Subsystem key management scheme is a perfect example of
the morass that faces us in 'automatically' managing keys
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#email841218

and another quote which, to SNA product developers always seem to be
either inept, uninformed, or irrelevant
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#email841226

mentions cost of racal box ... would contributed to getting me involved
as mentioned in post upthread, I wanted under $100, and capable of
3mbyte/sec ... this mentions $3,200/box running 128kbit/sec
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006.html#email850701

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Peter Eggebeen]

From the Thales manual titled 'SRM for IBM zOS' document 1270A516-006 page
11 1.1 introduction

Many applications, particularly in the banking area, require security to
be integrated into their design.  Generally, this security is best provided
by adding hardware based Host Security Modules (HSMs), as opposed to
software solutions.



Pete Eggebeen
Senior Systems Engineer
Mainframe Storage Management
Kohl's Corporation


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:04 AM, J R jayare...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Correct.  Hardware Security Module is the more generic term.

 Host Security Module is the Racal/Thales offering.  Many still use the
 term generically.

 =
 =
   Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:54 -0400
  From: zedgarhoo...@gmail.com
  Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
  HARDWARE Security Module.
 
  On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:09 AM, J R jayare...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
   Host Security Module.
 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:52:04 -0500
From: elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
   
Todd Arnold wrote:
   
 no other HSMs -
 vendor's HSM architecture,
   
What is HSM in this context?
   
Of course, I searched before posting, but found over 270 ambiguous
   definitions...
   
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
  
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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Anne  Lynn Wheeler wrote:

(as an aside, after power-on/test sequence ... those circuits get destroyed).

Destroyed after such sequence? I'm having trouble swallowing your statement. ;-D

If you, for example, do that in the factory just to test it out before shipping 
to the customer, it is destroyed?

Are you not meaning 'those key get destroyed'? Or do I misunderstand you?

Thanks for your post anyway.

And thanks to J R and zMan for your reply too about that acronym!

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Frank Swarbrick]

Thanks.  I had assume common to mean that it was common across vendors.  
Apparently it is common only across IBM platforms.




 From: Todd Arnold arno...@us.ibm.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
 
 I've only found ICSF and CCA for Linux on IBM System z.
 Since CCA is meant to be common I was wondering if it was implemented by 
 anyone outside of IBM itself.

I don't know of any non-IBM products that are designed to support CCA, but it 
is common to all the IBM platforms.  You've apparently only found it for the 
mainframe (ICSF (z/OS) and Linux), but it is also supported - with the same 
crypto cards - on Power systems running either AIX or IBM i, and on x86 
servers running Linux or Windows (although Windows is by special contract 
these days).  You can find some info on the cards and CCA for those systems 
starting at http://www.ibm.com/security/cryptocards.

- Todd Arnold

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Frank Swarbrick]

Not holding my breath.  I just know that we communicate with other systems 
(VisaNet, MasterCard etc.) and hardware (NCR ATMs) that are non-CCA 
compliant, and while sharing keys with these systems is supported under CCA it 
is fairly minimally documented.  So I was just curious if there were systems 
outside of those by IBM that supported what I might call CCA conforming 
sharing of keys.




 From: Phil Smith p...@voltage.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube
 
Frank Swarbrick wrote:
I don't mean the applications that use it, but rather the implementations of 
CCA itself.  I've only found ICSF and CCA for Linux on IBM System z.
Since CCA is meant to be common I was wondering if it was implemented by 
anyone outside of IBM itself.

Ah. I don't see the argument for that for the vendor: it's a lot of work, and 
they're unlikely to need all the functions, so they're doing more work to 
enable other folks to be able to port their products to that platform more 
easily. And since (as Todd notes) IBM supports CCA on the four main platforms, 
this would also mean implementing it for some rare system like HP/UX or 
Stratus or something.

So the net would be a lot of work on a platform that isn't mainstream to 
support something that helps others. I wouldn't hold my breath!

...phsiii

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Re: IBM Mainframe (1980's) on You tube

[Todd Arnold]

 I've only found ICSF and CCA for Linux on IBM System z.
 Since CCA is meant to be common I was wondering if it was implemented by 
 anyone outside of IBM itself.

I don't know of any non-IBM products that are designed to support CCA, but it 
is common to all the IBM platforms.  You've apparently only found it for the 
mainframe (ICSF (z/OS) and Linux), but it is also supported - with the same 
crypto cards - on Power systems running either AIX or IBM i, and on x86 servers 
running Linux or Windows (although Windows is by special contract these days).  
You can find some info on the cards and CCA for those systems starting at 
http://www.ibm.com/security/cryptocards.

- Todd Arnold

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