Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
>>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 7:04 PM, in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marcy Cortes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think I remember hearing that's how it worked here for Windows and > RedHat Linux too. Not sure about SuSE Linux since we don't run that on > Intel. SLES on Intel is licensed per box. As many Xen/VMWare guests as you care to create are covered. Mark Post
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Hello everyone, I'm new to the list. I've used VMWare on the desktop, and everything I read admonishes you to make sure you have separate licenses for every virtual instance of a Microsoft operating system. The "experiment" we did was Windows XP Pro with three virtual instances under it, Windows 98 SE, Windows 95, and Windows 3.1, all with full licenses. In those instances where you need to "register" an OS and you attempted to run a second copy of it, the second registration will fail, and would go into a reduced run mode. This would be true of Windows XP and newer, since they must be registered to continue in full run mode. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shimon Lebowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system >Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? >Expensive perhaps as you need >one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Is this really true??? One per *virtual*, not *real*, machine? If I were two run two copies of Windows on *one* PC, using e.g. VM-Ware, I would be required to pay twice??? Just wondering, and surprised, Shimon
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
With Windows Server standard edition, you would indeed pay for each Windows guest that ran on Intel virtualization including VMware, Xen, Virtual Server, or Hyper-V. If a customer licenses Windows Server Enterprise Edition (EE) to a host server, that license will support from 1-4 guest Windows Server guests with 5-8 requiring another EE license, etc. If you choose to license Data Center edition to that same host, you would be allowed unlimited Windows Server guests on that server. Check out http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/howtobuy/licensing/calculator.mspx and select calculator 2 to show the impact of different license models as the size of host and virtualization density changes. Jon Nolting EPG Compete - CATM Enterprise Technology Architect (425) 707-9334 (O) (925) 381-2375 (M) (425) 222-7969 (H) -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shimon Lebowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system >Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? >Expensive perhaps as you need >one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Is this really true??? One per *virtual*, not *real*, machine? If I were two run two copies of Windows on *one* PC, using e.g. VM-Ware, I would be required to pay twice??? Just wondering, and surprised, Shimon
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> Is this really true??? One per *virtual*, not *real*, > machine? If I were two run two > copies of Windows on *one* PC, using e.g. VM-Ware, > I would be required to pay twice??? Depends on what version of Windows. Some versions have restrictions on where they can legally run, and there are limitations on virtual machine deployments. MS got into a big fuss with Parallels on the Mac on whether Vista was permitted to run at all, and you were expected to pay for each virtual machine copy if it were permitted. So, yes, it matters. Parallels forked over a big pile of cash to buy MS off.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
I think I remember hearing that's how it worked here for Windows and RedHat Linux too. Not sure about SuSE Linux since we don't run that on Intel. My memory is getting full though and I don't page nearly as well as VM so I could be mistaken! Marcy Cortes "This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shimon Lebowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: [IBMVM] z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system >Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? >Expensive perhaps as you need >one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Is this really true??? One per *virtual*, not *real*, machine? If I were two run two copies of Windows on *one* PC, using e.g. VM-Ware, I would be required to pay twice??? Just wondering, and surprised, Shimon
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
>Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? >Expensive perhaps as you need >one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Is this really true??? One per *virtual*, not *real*, machine? If I were two run two copies of Windows on *one* PC, using e.g. VM-Ware, I would be required to pay twice??? Just wondering, and surprised, Shimon
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
From my experiments with GCC on VM/370 I would say that the 16megs of address space (i.e. real i370) is not enough space to run a "modern" linux in, so I would think XA/ESA type hardware would be needed Dave G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum - Original Message - From: "Gentry, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:33 PM Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system Hmm, what about the i370 aka Bigfoot? Other than physically, how did the p370 differ from the s/370? To quote from a document/webpage attributed to you: Linux on the System/390 is an idea that has been being kicked around since Linux's earliest days, but not much was done until 1998 or so. Linas Vepstas and others began a port of Linux, called "Bigfoot", which was an implementation that ran on System/370 (the 390's predecessor) and later processors. By early December 1999, Bigfoot would boot and usually load /bin/sh before panicking and crashing. Granted, it says system 370 and not p370. Inquiring minds . . yadda, yadda Steve G. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:31 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system On Mar 26, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Gentry, Stephen wrote: It will work on an IS (been there done that) but painfully slow. Would the p390 actually have to be a p390e? I started to work on it a few times on a p370 but kept getting side tracked on other stuff. Steve G Mine *was* a p390E. I don't know if it would have worked on a straight-up p390. Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. Halfword immediate instructions maybe? p370 couldn't run Linux, so you'd be dead in the water there. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On 3/26/08 5:05 PM, "Dave Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The existing licenses already allow running in a virtual environment and > don't specify what chips etc that could be. They could change future > licenses, perhaps, but MS licenses don't work like Mainframe Licenses and it > would be hard to exclude mainframe based emulation without excluding VM Ware. Since z/VOS is neither emulation or paravirtualization it is conceivable that an attorney might take exception to how the MS EULA applied to running Windows/XP in the z/VM environment. Because Apple has been reluctant to take a clear stance on virtualization of their products we sent their legal department a letter asking for clarification of their position on the issue of running OS X under z/VM and received no response. They may still be working their way through the letter using Wikipedia to decode some of the acronyms. Ultimately we don't think either company will challenge the product on the basis of hardware platform. Here's why. 1. Its deep Green. 2. It's efficient and TCO positive 3. License sales will, in all likelihood, not go down. > I guess they could buy VM Ware first... If Microsoft waits until after the release of this product they maybe able to buy VM Ware for substantially less. Gary Dennis Mantissa Corporation > > Dave G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > - Original Message - > From: "McKown, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:09 PM > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > >> -Original Message- >> From: The IBM z/VM Operating System >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Wade >> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:01 PM >> To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU >> Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system >> >> >> Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? Expensive >> perhaps as you need >> one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... > > Well, "tricky" in that MS might refuse to grant the license. They are > under no obligation to do so. And they are really, really worried about > Windows under any virtualization other than their own. Running on > "unsupported" hardware would likely make them even more reluctant. Of > course, I cannot think of any software that runs on Windows that I would > want to run on a z. I'd rather replace any such with "equivalent" > software, if there is some, or just run on Intel for that function. > > -- > John McKown > Senior Systems Programmer > HealthMarkets > Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage > Administrative Services Group > Information Technology > > The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged > and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are > not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is > strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal > offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the > sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing > it. > --. .- .-. -.-- Gary Dennis Mantissa Corporation
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:51 PM, David Boyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. > > > Halfword immediate instructions maybe? > > > > With a proper support contract you could get the microcode that > > supports halfway immediate instructions. > > Didn't that require a p390e card or an IS, though? I don't think the MCA > version ever did the G5 instructions. Mine is a PCI - but non-E as far as I know. Rob --
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> > Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. > > Halfword immediate instructions maybe? > > With a proper support contract you could get the microcode that > supports halfway immediate instructions. Didn't that require a p390e card or an IS, though? I don't think the MCA version ever did the G5 instructions.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Adam Thornton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. > Halfword immediate instructions maybe? With a proper support contract you could get the microcode that supports halfway immediate instructions. Early SLES8 kernels I could still hack to make them run on the P/390. But when the developers started to take the XA I/O subsystem for granted (CHSH and friends) I had to give up. My last kernel: Linux lnx00c00 2.4.21-278-rmh5 #9 SMP Wed Mar 8 23:54:13 CET 2006 s390 Rob (running 100 of those on the P/390) --
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Gentry, Stephen wrote: Hmm, what about the i370 aka Bigfoot? Other than physically, how did the p370 differ from the s/370? To quote from a document/webpage attributed to you: Linux on the System/390 is an idea that has been being kicked around since Linux's earliest days, but not much was done until 1998 or so. Linas Vepstas and others began a port of Linux, called "Bigfoot", which was an implementation that ran on System/370 (the 390's predecessor) and later processors. By early December 1999, Bigfoot would boot and usually load /bin/sh before panicking and crashing. Granted, it says system 370 and not p370. Yeah, Bigfoot would have run on a p/370, but it never got developed far enough to be usable for any actual task. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Hmm, what about the i370 aka Bigfoot? Other than physically, how did the p370 differ from the s/370? To quote from a document/webpage attributed to you: Linux on the System/390 is an idea that has been being kicked around since Linux's earliest days, but not much was done until 1998 or so. Linas Vepstas and others began a port of Linux, called "Bigfoot", which was an implementation that ran on System/370 (the 390's predecessor) and later processors. By early December 1999, Bigfoot would boot and usually load /bin/sh before panicking and crashing. Granted, it says system 370 and not p370. Inquiring minds . . yadda, yadda Steve G. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:31 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system On Mar 26, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Gentry, Stephen wrote: > It will work on an IS (been there done that) but painfully slow. Would > the p390 actually have to be a p390e? I started to work on it a few > times on a p370 but kept getting side tracked on other stuff. > Steve G Mine *was* a p390E. I don't know if it would have worked on a straight-up p390. Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. Halfword immediate instructions maybe? p370 couldn't run Linux, so you'd be dead in the water there. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
The movie stars were Lassie and Rin-tin-tin. The dog is variable, chosen to suit the audience. I have heard it with various dogs. IBM-specific ones were IMS and TSO. Other substitutions are possible. Regards, Richard Schuh > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gentry, Stephen > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:03 AM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > Seems like Johnny Carson did this joke as "The Great Carnac". > Do you remember what the answers are/were? I can't remember > the name of the female movie star (of course you could > substitute any currently good looking female movie star(and > let's not go too off thread with this)). I do remember the > other two. (a well know canine movie star and an IBM product > that I don't think is sold or supported, in its original > form, anymore). > Steve G. > > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary M. Dennis > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:43 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > Early in the development cycle, we had both QEMU and Bochs > running on z/System version of Redhat (CentOS 5.4). The "Name > two movie stars and a dog" joke applied to both emulators > running in this environment. > > We concluded early on that we had to get rid of Linux and the > emulation layer. Both would prevent us from ever achieving > the required level of performance. The result of that detour > is that the only thing between > Windows(r) and VM is CMS and translation code. > > > > On 3/26/08 9:57 AM, "Adam Thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run > >> Windows using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on > what machine? > >> (I'd like to see someone try it on a z10.) > > --. .- .-. -.-- > > Gary Dennis > Mantissa Corporation > 2 Perimeter Park South > Birmingham, Alabama 35243-3274 > > p: 205.968-3942 > m: 205.218-3937 > f: 205.968.3932 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.mantissa.com > http://www.idovos.com >
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Mar 26, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Gentry, Stephen wrote: It will work on an IS (been there done that) but painfully slow. Would the p390 actually have to be a p390e? I started to work on it a few times on a p370 but kept getting side tracked on other stuff. Steve G Mine *was* a p390E. I don't know if it would have worked on a straight-up p390. Modern Linuxes don't run on p390-class machines anymore, I think. Halfword immediate instructions maybe? p370 couldn't run Linux, so you'd be dead in the water there. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
The existing licenses already allow running in a virtual environment and don't specify what chips etc that could be. They could change future licenses, perhaps, but MS licenses don't work like Mainframe Licenses and it would be hard to exclude mainframe based emulation without excluding VM Ware. I guess they could buy VM Ware first... Dave G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum - Original Message - From: "McKown, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 7:09 PM Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:01 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? Expensive perhaps as you need one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Well, "tricky" in that MS might refuse to grant the license. They are under no obligation to do so. And they are really, really worried about Windows under any virtualization other than their own. Running on "unsupported" hardware would likely make them even more reluctant. Of course, I cannot think of any software that runs on Windows that I would want to run on a z. I'd rather replace any such with "equivalent" software, if there is some, or just run on Intel for that function. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
It will work on an IS (been there done that) but painfully slow. Would the p390 actually have to be a p390e? I started to work on it a few times on a p370 but kept getting side tracked on other stuff. Steve G -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:12 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:55 PM, David Boyes wrote: > Not very. Adam's done it on our MP3K (RIP -- check the archives for a > URL with the screenshot of WinNT beating the living daylights out of > our > poor abused H70). Don't recommend it on that hardware. I think it was actually a P390 or IS. REALLY don't recommend it there! Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Seems like Johnny Carson did this joke as "The Great Carnac". Do you remember what the answers are/were? I can't remember the name of the female movie star (of course you could substitute any currently good looking female movie star(and let's not go too off thread with this)). I do remember the other two. (a well know canine movie star and an IBM product that I don't think is sold or supported, in its original form, anymore). Steve G. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary M. Dennis Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:43 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system Early in the development cycle, we had both QEMU and Bochs running on z/System version of Redhat (CentOS 5.4). The "Name two movie stars and a dog" joke applied to both emulators running in this environment. We concluded early on that we had to get rid of Linux and the emulation layer. Both would prevent us from ever achieving the required level of performance. The result of that detour is that the only thing between Windows(r) and VM is CMS and translation code. On 3/26/08 9:57 AM, "Adam Thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run >> Windows >> using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd >> like to >> see someone try it on a z10.) --. .- .-. -.-- Gary Dennis Mantissa Corporation 2 Perimeter Park South Birmingham, Alabama 35243-3274 p: 205.968-3942 m: 205.218-3937 f: 205.968.3932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mantissa.com http://www.idovos.com
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Mar 26, 2008, at 1:55 PM, David Boyes wrote: Not very. Adam's done it on our MP3K (RIP -- check the archives for a URL with the screenshot of WinNT beating the living daylights out of our poor abused H70). Don't recommend it on that hardware. I think it was actually a P390 or IS. REALLY don't recommend it there! Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
I would assume he needs VM because he needs several different versions of z/OS to support his products. If your developing a z/OS product you need to have all the supported versions of z/OS to test it on. David Boyes wrote: We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development environment without it has never been considered an option. Now that's the sort of quote that should appear in IBM marketing materials. -- db -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> > z/OS doesn't run because it deliberately issues an instruction subcode > > that is not implemented on an IFL and then craters in a specified way > > when the instruction fails. > One might infer from your characterization that z/OS added code to > intentionally crater itself on an IFL, and that would be incorrect. One might also infer that vi is somehow superior to emacs, or that tomatoes are vegetables. It issues the instruction and dies in the way specified for such things to die. Is that better? (*grumble* smart-ass CGI movie doll... grumble)
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:26 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > > On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 03:17 EDT, David Boyes > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > z/OS doesn't run because it deliberately issues an > instruction subcode > > that is not implemented on an IFL and then craters in a > specified way > > when the instruction fails. > > One might infer from your characterization that z/OS added code to > intentionally crater itself on an IFL, and that would be incorrect. > > Alan Altmark In reality, IBM changed the microcode which loads on an IFL to cause that particular function to get a "check stop" (IIRC) condition. six of one ... IBM has made it impossible to run z/OS on an IFL. As is their right. And that is GOOD in that it allows other OSes such as Linux to be cost effectively run on a z. It also got IBM to thinking about "speciality" engines and out came the zAAP and zIIP. Both designed to allow some special types of work to run without impacting the z/OS software cost. Very smart! -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 03:17 EDT, David Boyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > z/OS doesn't run because it deliberately issues an instruction subcode > that is not implemented on an IFL and then craters in a specified way > when the instruction fails. One might infer from your characterization that z/OS added code to intentionally crater itself on an IFL, and that would be incorrect. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 11:01 EDT, Mark Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Me too! Me too > > Give me a z10 and I'll try it. If I find any on the sidewalk or near the storm drain I will save them for you and Adam. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> Systems such as z/OS do not run on an IFL due to > some differences in the microcode loaded. z/OS doesn't run because it deliberately issues an instruction subcode that is not implemented on an IFL and then craters in a specified way when the instruction fails. > If somebody wanted to, they could port one of the *BSDs to > run on an IFL. OpenSolaris runs on an IFL as well. Yep. What's that old joke about "doctor, it hurts when I do that." "Well, don't do that, then!". See above. IFLs (and the other specialty engines) solve a historical marketing and pricing problem with z/OS. I really wish they were marketed as a part of "z/OS", not the Z platform, but that level of confusion would make lots of IBM salescritter brains go tilt, so I suppose we're stuck with the status quo. Now, if someone wants to pay for BSD on Z, we're open to the idea...8-) -- db
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 2:01 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > > Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? Expensive > perhaps as you need > one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... Well, "tricky" in that MS might refuse to grant the license. They are under no obligation to do so. And they are really, really worried about Windows under any virtualization other than their own. Running on "unsupported" hardware would likely make them even more reluctant. Of course, I cannot think of any software that runs on Windows that I would want to run on a z. I'd rather replace any such with "equivalent" software, if there is some, or just run on Intel for that function. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> There could be virtualization uses > at some point. My shop is a heavy MS shop and trying to retire > their Multiprise 3000. It would be nice to pilot the migration > of some Windows servers onto our lightly loaded VM/ESA system. Wait for the new hardware, at least if you have anything else useful happening on that system (or want to). Adam's little demo pegged both CPUs on the H70 at the time. It wasn't pretty.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Why would the Microsoft Licensing be "tricky"? Expensive perhaps as you need one license per virtual machine, but not tricky... - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system The tricky part about this is the Microsoft licensing. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: March 26, 2008 14:41 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Wheeler Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system If such a beast were to materialize, would IBM let customers run it on IFL's (where "L" stand for Linux)? l How could IBM stop them, other than by some sort of license about what could be run on an IFL? Systems such as z/OS do not run on an IFL due to some differences in the microcode loaded. z/OS is dependant on those differences. If somebody wanted to, they could port one of the *BSDs to run on an IFL. OpenSolaris runs on an IFL as well. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review retransmission dissemination or other use of or taking any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient or delegate is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. The sender accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of information provided. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The sender accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. This disclaimer is property of the TTC and must not be altered or circumvented in any manner.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> Are you saying or asking if has run Bochs on a mainframe? That would > be a very significant achievement. Not very. Adam's done it on our MP3K (RIP -- check the archives for a URL with the screenshot of WinNT beating the living daylights out of our poor abused H70). Don't recommend it on that hardware.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
The tricky part about this is the Microsoft licensing. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: March 26, 2008 14:41 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:35 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > > If such a beast were to materialize, would IBM let customers run it on > IFL's (where "L" stand for Linux)? > l How could IBM stop them, other than by some sort of license about what could be run on an IFL? Systems such as z/OS do not run on an IFL due to some differences in the microcode loaded. z/OS is dependant on those differences. If somebody wanted to, they could port one of the *BSDs to run on an IFL. OpenSolaris runs on an IFL as well. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review retransmission dissemination or other use of or taking any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient or delegate is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. The sender accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of information provided. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The sender accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. This disclaimer is property of the TTC and must not be altered or circumvented in any manner.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> > We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development > > environment without it has never been considered an option. Now that's the sort of quote that should appear in IBM marketing materials. -- db
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
> -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:35 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > > If such a beast were to materialize, would IBM let customers run it on > IFL's (where "L" stand for Linux)? > l How could IBM stop them, other than by some sort of license about what could be run on an IFL? Systems such as z/OS do not run on an IFL due to some differences in the microcode loaded. z/OS is dependant on those differences. If somebody wanted to, they could port one of the *BSDs to run on an IFL. OpenSolaris runs on an IFL as well. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
If such a beast were to materialize, would IBM let customers run it on
IFL's (where "L" stand for Linux)?
l
Stephen Frazier
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.ok.us>To
Sent by: The IBM IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
z/VM Operating cc
System
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject
ARK.EDU> Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific
purpose file system
03/25/2008 05:45
PM
Please respond to
The IBM z/VM
Operating System
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ARK.EDU>
Are you attempting to write a windows emulator that runs under VM?
Looking at your companies web site it looks like you mostly sell products
that run under z/OS.
If you can do this there will be a lot of interest.
Gary M. Dennis wrote:
> Months ago. The development team was so focused on instruction result
> fidelity, machine state, and segment translation bypass issues that I/O
> subsystem did not receive the necessary attention. At least the tough
part
> is done.
>
> Gary Dennis
> Mantissa
--
Stephen Frazier
Information Technology Unit
Oklahoma Department of Corrections
3400 Martin Luther King
Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298
Tel.: (405) 425-2549
Fax: (405) 425-2554
Pager: (405) 690-1828
email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Hi, Gary. So, let me see if I got this straightyour organization has developed some sort of application, which runs on CMS, that allows Windows-based code to be executed? Way cool, dude. Good luck with it, and could you please keep this informed as to your progress on this? Given your earlier experiences with the BFS, I would strongly recommend that you take a closer look at using the RSK as the basis for your new file system. Creating a 'simple' file system, using the RSK's DASD management APIs should not be all that difficult, and it certainly does scale up to the sizes you mentioned before. # The maximum number of storage groups is 1024. # The maximum number of data blocks per storage group is X'' (16 TB). # The maximum number of minidisks per storage group is 13,000. # The total number of dataspace-mapped DASD blocks cannot exceed X'' (16 TB). Plus, it can perform DASD I/O async allowing perhaps one RSK-based file server to support several Windows application's I/O needs. Hope this helps some. DJ Gary M. Dennis wrote: Emulation would be a non-starter for a production environment. I would describe this system as a single pass code segment translation system with conditional block invalidation. We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development environment without it has never been considered an option. Many companies (ours included) consider running a few dozen virtual Windows® images on a rack-mounted machine good business. We see no reason why z/System should not support from 250 images on the low end to several thousand on mid and high end systems. On 3/25/08 5:45 PM, "Stephen Frazier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Are you attempting to write a windows emulator that runs under VM? Looking at your companies web site it looks like you mostly sell products that run under z/OS. If you can do this there will be a lot of interest. Gary M. Dennis wrote: Months ago. The development team was so focused on instruction result fidelity, machine state, and segment translation bypass issues that I/O subsystem did not receive the necessary attention. At least the tough part is done. Gary Dennis Mantissa --. .- .-. -.-- Gary M. Dennis Mantissa Corporation 2 Perimeter Park South Birmingham, Alabama 35243-3274 p: 205.968-3942 m: 205.218-3937 f: 205.968.3932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mantissa.com http://www.idovos.com
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:12 AM, David L. Craig wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59:00AM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: Dave, yes, Boch, running Windows NT itself, has been hosted on top of a zLinux guest, running under z/VM. This feat was accomplished by my colleague Adam Thornton, who clearly has way too much free time on his hands. ;-) While it did work, the performance was awful, to say the least. Of course, this was done on a smallish S/390 box and certainly not on a z9 or z10 series platform. Yes, Google is my friend. There's even a Debian package, I see. I, too, would be very interested is performance numbers from state-of-the-art hardware. There could be virtualization uses at some point. My shop is a heavy MS shop and trying to retire their Multiprise 3000. It would be nice to pilot the migration of some Windows servers onto our lightly loaded VM/ESA system. You can't run Bochs acceptably on an MP3000. It's going to be like running on, I dunno, a 10 MHz Intel. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:32:58PM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote: > > I think you'll find the MP3K is just too slow (CPU speed). That was the > point of my talking about a z10; it's a much faster CPU than even a z9. > > But as an experiment to determine feasibility of the technology it would > be ok. I.e. it "runs". > Well, it's only a matter of time until IBM drops support for the MP 3000 and at the rate applications are being migrated off it, we're going to need a z10 BC (assuming such a beast is coming) to replace it. It would be very nice to be able to say we could support some XP servers on it. So I guess I'll think about bringing up a zlinux vm and playing with Bochs... -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Early in the development cycle, we had both QEMU and Bochs running on z/System version of Redhat (CentOS 5.4). The "Name two movie stars and a dog" joke applied to both emulators running in this environment. We concluded early on that we had to get rid of Linux and the emulation layer. Both would prevent us from ever achieving the required level of performance. The result of that detour is that the only thing between Windows® and VM is CMS and translation code. On 3/26/08 9:57 AM, "Adam Thornton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run >> Windows >> using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd >> like to >> see someone try it on a z10.) --. .- .-. -.-- Gary Dennis Mantissa Corporation 2 Perimeter Park South Birmingham, Alabama 35243-3274 p: 205.968-3942 m: 205.218-3937 f: 205.968.3932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mantissa.com http://www.idovos.com
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 12:13 EDT, "David L. Craig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, Google is my friend. There's even a Debian package, I see. > I, too, would be very interested is performance numbers from > state-of-the-art hardware. There could be virtualization uses > at some point. My shop is a heavy MS shop and trying to retire > their Multiprise 3000. It would be nice to pilot the migration > of some Windows servers onto our lightly loaded VM/ESA system. I think you'll find the MP3K is just too slow (CPU speed). That was the point of my talking about a z10; it's a much faster CPU than even a z9. But as an experiment to determine feasibility of the technology it would be ok. I.e. it "runs". Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
As Dave (Jones) said, yes, it's been done.
But Dave (Craig), while it *is* cool, don't be shocked at this feat.
BOCHS is a pure emulator. It can be built on *any* HW platform
("System p", Sun SPARC, or an ARM hand-held, not only "System z")
and will emulate the INTeL instruction set with a smattering of
simulated PC hardware attached.
The determined experimenter can do yet kinkier things:
http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=6418
"an x86 emulator running a 680x0 emulator on a handheld gaming console"
Some may also enjoy shattering of gender assumptions in that post,
"my name's Neisha, and yes, girls can hack too".
-- R;
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:38 AM, David L. Craig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:29:59AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote:
> >
> > An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run Windows
> > using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd like
> to
> > see someone try it on a z10.)
>
> Are you saying or asking if has run Bochs on a mainframe? That would
> be a very significant achievement.
>
> --
>
> May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
>
> Dave Craig
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
> You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
> Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'"
>
> --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
>
--
-- R; <><
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:59:00AM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > Dave, yes, Boch, running Windows NT itself, has been hosted on top of a > zLinux guest, running under z/VM. This feat was accomplished by my > colleague Adam Thornton, who clearly has way too much free time on his > hands. ;-) > > While it did work, the performance was awful, to say the least. Of > course, this was done on a smallish S/390 box and certainly not on a z9 > or z10 series platform. Yes, Google is my friend. There's even a Debian package, I see. I, too, would be very interested is performance numbers from state-of-the-art hardware. There could be virtualization uses at some point. My shop is a heavy MS shop and trying to retire their Multiprise 3000. It would be nice to pilot the migration of some Windows servers onto our lightly loaded VM/ESA system. -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
David L. Craig wrote: On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:29:59AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote: An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run Windows using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd like to see someone try it on a z10.) Are you saying or asking if has run Bochs on a mainframe? That would be a very significant achievement. Dave, yes, Boch, running Windows NT itself, has been hosted on top of a zLinux guest, running under z/VM. This feat was accomplished by my colleague Adam Thornton, who clearly has way too much free time on his hands. ;-) While it did work, the performance was awful, to say the least. Of course, this was done on a smallish S/390 box and certainly not on a z9 or z10 series platform. Dave Jones V/Soft
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:29:59AM -0400, Alan Altmark wrote: > > An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run Windows > using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd like to > see someone try it on a z10.) Are you saying or asking if has run Bochs on a mainframe? That would be a very significant achievement. -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Me too! Me too > > Give me a z10 and I'll try it. > > Adam -- Mark Pace Mainline Information Systems
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Mar 26, 2008, at 9:29 AM, Alan Altmark wrote: On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 12:20 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Emulation would be a non-starter for a production environment. I would describe this system as a single pass code segment translation system with conditional block invalidation. We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development environment without it has never been considered an option. Many companies (ours included) consider running a few dozen virtual Windows® images on a rack-mounted machine good business. We see no reason why z/System should not support from 250 images on the low end to several thousand on mid and high end systems. An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run Windows using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd like to see someone try it on a z10.) Give me a z10 and I'll try it. Adam
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Wednesday, 03/26/2008 at 12:20 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Emulation would be a non-starter for a production environment. I would > describe this system as a single pass code segment translation system with > conditional block invalidation. > > We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development > environment without it has never been considered an option. > > Many companies (ours included) consider running a few dozen virtual Windows® > images on a rack-mounted machine good business. We see no reason why > z/System should not support from 250 images on the low end to several > thousand on mid and high end systems. An excellent goal. As a point of comparison, have you ever run Windows using the Bochs emulator on zLinux? If so, on what machine? (I'd like to see someone try it on a z10.) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Sounds very interesting. I hope you present your method at a conference sometime. Even if it isn't a commercial success the idea is intriguing. Gary M. Dennis wrote: Emulation would be a non-starter for a production environment. I would describe this system as a single pass code segment translation system with conditional block invalidation. We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development environment without it has never been considered an option. Many companies (ours included) consider running a few dozen virtual Windows® images on a rack-mounted machine good business. We see no reason why z/System should not support from 250 images on the low end to several thousand on mid and high end systems. -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Emulation would be a non-starter for a production environment. I would describe this system as a single pass code segment translation system with conditional block invalidation. We have been using VM for 20 of our 27 years in business. A development environment without it has never been considered an option. Many companies (ours included) consider running a few dozen virtual Windows® images on a rack-mounted machine good business. We see no reason why z/System should not support from 250 images on the low end to several thousand on mid and high end systems. On 3/25/08 5:45 PM, "Stephen Frazier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are you attempting to write a windows emulator that runs under VM? > > Looking at your companies web site it looks like you mostly sell products that > run under z/OS. > > If you can do this there will be a lot of interest. > > Gary M. Dennis wrote: >> Months ago. The development team was so focused on instruction result >> fidelity, machine state, and segment translation bypass issues that I/O >> subsystem did not receive the necessary attention. At least the tough part >> is done. >> >> Gary Dennis >> Mantissa --. .- .-. -.-- Gary M. Dennis Mantissa Corporation 2 Perimeter Park South Birmingham, Alabama 35243-3274 p: 205.968-3942 m: 205.218-3937 f: 205.968.3932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mantissa.com http://www.idovos.com
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Are you attempting to write a windows emulator that runs under VM? Looking at your companies web site it looks like you mostly sell products that run under z/OS. If you can do this there will be a lot of interest. Gary M. Dennis wrote: Months ago. The development team was so focused on instruction result fidelity, machine state, and segment translation bypass issues that I/O subsystem did not receive the necessary attention. At least the tough part is done. Gary Dennis Mantissa -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Months ago. The development team was so focused on instruction result fidelity, machine state, and segment translation bypass issues that I/O subsystem did not receive the necessary attention. At least the tough part is done. Gary Dennis Mantissa On 3/25/08 4:17 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ummm, I may have missed something, but since when can you run Windows on > an IBM mainframe? > > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Gary M. Dennis > Sent: March 25, 2008 17:14 > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system > > The callable services benchmarks we conducted with BFS ran between 8 and > 10 > times longer than the test set running with the CMS file system. > > Assuming a cluster of 125 Windows(r) 2K z/VM guests and using I/O counts > generated by Win 2K on native Intel hardware the results of > extrapolating > the I/O overhead spooked us a bit. In effect, all our instruction > pipeline > optimization and translated instruction segment reuse optimization would > be > negated by the I/O overhead. > > We have a callable file system for z/OS that can handle an array of 128 > pools each containing up to 255 volumes each. That system would be a > bear to > convert owing to the OS-specific interface code but it appears from your > comments that converting may have to be seriously considered to achieve > the > desired results. > > Thank you. > > > Gary Dennis > Mantissa > > On 3/25/08 9:55 AM, "Alan Altmark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 03/25/2008 at 04:26 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Is anyone aware of a VM open source file system port with some of the >>> characteristics listed below. Such a system might enable us to add > the >>> functionality needed to support these guests without starting at > zero. >> >> It isn't Open Source, but CMS has a POSIX file system (Byte File > System, >> BFS) that is managed by the SFS server, allocating space only as used. > I >> don't know that I would classify it as "lightweight", though from the > CMS >> user's point of view, it is, since the I/O takes place in the SFS > server, >> but it takes APPC/VM (IUCV on steriods) calls to make it happen. You > can >> talk to it in assembler using the BPX1 callable services. It > could >> provide you a "jump start" while you develop your own file system. >> >> And just in case you haven't discovered it already, there's no > "pluggable" >> file system interface in CMS. You will need to write your file system >> from the bottom up. The only help CMS will provide to you is in the > form >> of HNDIO,HNDSVC, NUCEXT, and NUCXLOAD. >> >> Alan Altmark >> z/VM Development >> IBM Endicott >> > > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which > it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any > review retransmission dissemination or other use of or taking any action in > reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient or delegate is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error > please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The > integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. > The sender accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail or for the > consequences of any actions taken on the basis of information provided. The > recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of > viruses. The sender accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus > transmitted by this e-mail. This disclaimer is property of the TTC and must > not be altered or circumvented in any manner. >
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Ummm, I may have missed something, but since when can you run Windows on an IBM mainframe? Peter -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary M. Dennis Sent: March 25, 2008 17:14 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system The callable services benchmarks we conducted with BFS ran between 8 and 10 times longer than the test set running with the CMS file system. Assuming a cluster of 125 Windows(r) 2K z/VM guests and using I/O counts generated by Win 2K on native Intel hardware the results of extrapolating the I/O overhead spooked us a bit. In effect, all our instruction pipeline optimization and translated instruction segment reuse optimization would be negated by the I/O overhead. We have a callable file system for z/OS that can handle an array of 128 pools each containing up to 255 volumes each. That system would be a bear to convert owing to the OS-specific interface code but it appears from your comments that converting may have to be seriously considered to achieve the desired results. Thank you. Gary Dennis Mantissa On 3/25/08 9:55 AM, "Alan Altmark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday, 03/25/2008 at 04:26 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Is anyone aware of a VM open source file system port with some of the >> characteristics listed below. Such a system might enable us to add the >> functionality needed to support these guests without starting at zero. > > It isn't Open Source, but CMS has a POSIX file system (Byte File System, > BFS) that is managed by the SFS server, allocating space only as used. I > don't know that I would classify it as "lightweight", though from the CMS > user's point of view, it is, since the I/O takes place in the SFS server, > but it takes APPC/VM (IUCV on steriods) calls to make it happen. You can > talk to it in assembler using the BPX1 callable services. It could > provide you a "jump start" while you develop your own file system. > > And just in case you haven't discovered it already, there's no "pluggable" > file system interface in CMS. You will need to write your file system > from the bottom up. The only help CMS will provide to you is in the form > of HNDIO,HNDSVC, NUCEXT, and NUCXLOAD. > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review retransmission dissemination or other use of or taking any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient or delegate is strictly prohibited. If you received this in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. The sender accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of information provided. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The sender accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. This disclaimer is property of the TTC and must not be altered or circumvented in any manner.
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
The callable services benchmarks we conducted with BFS ran between 8 and 10 times longer than the test set running with the CMS file system. Assuming a cluster of 125 Windows® 2K z/VM guests and using I/O counts generated by Win 2K on native Intel hardware the results of extrapolating the I/O overhead spooked us a bit. In effect, all our instruction pipeline optimization and translated instruction segment reuse optimization would be negated by the I/O overhead. We have a callable file system for z/OS that can handle an array of 128 pools each containing up to 255 volumes each. That system would be a bear to convert owing to the OS-specific interface code but it appears from your comments that converting may have to be seriously considered to achieve the desired results. Thank you. Gary Dennis Mantissa On 3/25/08 9:55 AM, "Alan Altmark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday, 03/25/2008 at 04:26 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Is anyone aware of a VM open source file system port with some of the >> characteristics listed below. Such a system might enable us to add the >> functionality needed to support these guests without starting at zero. > > It isn't Open Source, but CMS has a POSIX file system (Byte File System, > BFS) that is managed by the SFS server, allocating space only as used. I > don't know that I would classify it as "lightweight", though from the CMS > user's point of view, it is, since the I/O takes place in the SFS server, > but it takes APPC/VM (IUCV on steriods) calls to make it happen. You can > talk to it in assembler using the BPX1 callable services. It could > provide you a "jump start" while you develop your own file system. > > And just in case you haven't discovered it already, there's no "pluggable" > file system interface in CMS. You will need to write your file system > from the bottom up. The only help CMS will provide to you is in the form > of HNDIO,HNDSVC, NUCEXT, and NUCXLOAD. > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott >
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
Another possibility would be to exploit the infrastructure that the RSK provides.. DJ Alan Altmark wrote: On Tuesday, 03/25/2008 at 04:26 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is anyone aware of a VM open source file system port with some of the characteristics listed below. Such a system might enable us to add the functionality needed to support these guests without starting at zero. It isn't Open Source, but CMS has a POSIX file system (Byte File System, BFS) that is managed by the SFS server, allocating space only as used. I don't know that I would classify it as "lightweight", though from the CMS user's point of view, it is, since the I/O takes place in the SFS server, but it takes APPC/VM (IUCV on steriods) calls to make it happen. You can talk to it in assembler using the BPX1 callable services. It could provide you a "jump start" while you develop your own file system. And just in case you haven't discovered it already, there's no "pluggable" file system interface in CMS. You will need to write your file system from the bottom up. The only help CMS will provide to you is in the form of HNDIO,HNDSVC, NUCEXT, and NUCXLOAD. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM - Lightweight specific purpose file system
On Tuesday, 03/25/2008 at 04:26 EDT, "Gary M. Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is anyone aware of a VM open source file system port with some of the > characteristics listed below. Such a system might enable us to add the > functionality needed to support these guests without starting at zero. It isn't Open Source, but CMS has a POSIX file system (Byte File System, BFS) that is managed by the SFS server, allocating space only as used. I don't know that I would classify it as "lightweight", though from the CMS user's point of view, it is, since the I/O takes place in the SFS server, but it takes APPC/VM (IUCV on steriods) calls to make it happen. You can talk to it in assembler using the BPX1 callable services. It could provide you a "jump start" while you develop your own file system. And just in case you haven't discovered it already, there's no "pluggable" file system interface in CMS. You will need to write your file system from the bottom up. The only help CMS will provide to you is in the form of HNDIO,HNDSVC, NUCEXT, and NUCXLOAD. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
