Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> >> (http://www.florecita.com/avenal.htm) as an example. Cranking the > >> head > >> up is "false collection" . > >> > > > > > > i think it is forced ventroflexion! > > Janice-- > > Excuse me? Forced how? Those reins are loose and the horse carries > himself in the same way at liberty. > you misunderstood. cranking the head up is the way most force ventroflexion. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Hi Karen, >>>To me, this is just another example of where moderation is a good thing. I don't want my horses star-gazing and ewe-necked, but I don't have any need for passage or piaffe or levade either! There's a lot of "good" that can happen in the middle of these extremes, and that's where I'm happiest! I would agree as I think that is true for most people and from what I have seen the easiest place for most horses as well. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
--- Lynn Kinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Excuse me? Forced how? << I think she was referencing your statement that cranking the head in is forced collection - your statement. Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 27, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Janice McDonald wrote: >> (http://www.florecita.com/avenal.htm) as an example. Cranking the >> head >> up is "false collection" . >> > > > i think it is forced ventroflexion! > Janice-- Excuse me? Forced how? Those reins are loose and the horse carries himself in the same way at liberty. A filly I produced, Tomineja (http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/Tomineja/), is of the same bloodlines and you can see her as a yearling and a baby -- same head carriage. It didn't change when she got under saddle (her new owner did most of the training and mostly rides her bareback). Her gait is extremely smooth and is locked in. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Here's my question: do people THINK it is collected > because the horse's head and neck are cranked up and > back, and then when pushed for speed, of course the > horse is stepping under itself, because the front is > held back so much. But that is not a round-backed > collection. I think they think it's collection because they have "collected" up the reins and face and feel like the horses is "collected" under them. If you have ever ridden an upper level dressage horse, as I have, you would never mistake the two again. -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> Plus, of course, the whole "isolated for a 1000 years" thing is yet >>> another myth Point taken! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:11:36 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Is that your horse Mic? OMG!!! Can I teach my horse >to do that? Or do they have to know it already. >Scooter is 16 No, not my horse. I'm sure the right trainer could teach Scooter to do it - not sure how much he would enjoy it though. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:57:08 -0400, you wrote: > Icelandic's are 100% pure for 1000 years (approximately) and gosh, >see the variation we see in the gaits and conformation within this breed! I think much of that is to do with the fact that due to their isolation, they were needed for so many different tasks, so you end up with horses for riding, horses for pulling, horses for eating etc all in one breed, and while one type of horse CAN do all those things, you would naturally tend to breed, say, the most comfortable for riding, the biggest, most thrifty for eating etc. Plus, of course, the whole "isolated for a 1000 years" thing is yet another myth Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> (http://www.florecita.com/avenal.htm) as an example. Cranking the head > up is "false collection" . > i think it is forced ventroflexion! Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> area and is capping or, even better, overstepping >> by up to 12 inches >>> the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the >> horse is >>> ventroflexed >> >> But it certainly DOES happen in competition >> tolt. although tolt is >> not collected. > > > Here's my question: do people THINK it is collected > because the horse's head and neck are cranked up and > back, and then when pushed for speed, of course the > horse is stepping under itself, because the front is > held back so much. But that is not a round-backed > collection. Plus, I didn't think you could do true > collection in speed? as I said about Rosa and Sinchi -- they were on a loose rein. If a horse has good self carriage its head will be up, but that is far different than cranking it up: see (http://www.florecita.com/avenal.htm) as an example. Cranking the head up is "false collection" . Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> Plus, I didn't think you could do true collection in speed? There is an old and true saying in serious dressage circles: "Speed is the enemy of collection." So, yep, Susan, you're right on the mark. I get the feeling that some people have made the incorrect progression that "collection is good, our horses are good, therefore our good horses must be collected." There are lots of things in this world that are "good", that I don't want to have in large quantities in my everyday life. I really don't WANT a collected trail horse - not in any dressage sense that is. To me, this is just another example of where moderation is a good thing. I don't want my horses star-gazing and ewe-necked, but I don't have any need for passage or piaffe or levade either! There's a lot of "good" that can happen in the middle of these extremes, and that's where I'm happiest! Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Karen Thomas wrote: > Florida Cracker horses are pure Spanish (Barb, Jennet) -- they > were > brought from the islands by the Spanish settlers in Florida > > > That 100% pure anything ancestry claim doesn't impress me too much, > with any > breed. Icelandic's are 100% pure for 1000 years (approximately) and > gosh, > see the variation we see in the gaits and conformation within this > breed! > They are from a tiny, isolated country too. Apparently they have the genetic markers to back it up -- and phenotypically they could pass for a Paso Fino or a Peruvian. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://www.dslextreme.com/~napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
--- Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:58:33 -0700, you wrote: > > >At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable > when gaiting -- ie., > >enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping > under the saddle > >area and is capping or, even better, overstepping > by up to 12 inches > >the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the > horse is > >ventroflexed > > But it certainly DOES happen in competition > tolt. although tolt is > not collected. Here's my question: do people THINK it is collected because the horse's head and neck are cranked up and back, and then when pushed for speed, of course the horse is stepping under itself, because the front is held back so much. But that is not a round-backed collection. Plus, I didn't think you could do true collection in speed? Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You might say we made some progress "toward > collection", but that term > simply isn't used until the "degree of collection" > has advanced well beyond > anything we're talking about here - even with my > 3-gaited horse.<< I did have a beautiful collected canter on Whisper last week! Took me quite by surprise - but it was because she wanted to go and I held her back. I felt her rear end "rise" and I thought she was tossing in little bucks, but when I said something to my riding friend who is a 3 day eventer and riding instructor (a real one, not one who just claims to have "students") she said Whisper was all nicely collected. The "rise" I felt was tremendous, and it was her back rising "significantly" and her really getting her hind end under herself. Of course, she can do this at liberty, and it wasn't something I asked for, it was, really and truely, her "arabness" coming out. But there is no way in hades that she could get ANY kind of gait with her back that rounded and her but that far underneath herself. I may never feel that kind of "perfect canter collection" again in my life, but at least I know what if feels like. No way could any horse gait like that - a physical impossibility. So lets quit using the term "collection" and use what Judy says: "containment" for gaits. Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Is that your horse Mic? OMG!!! Can I teach my horse to do that? Or do they have to know it already. Scooter is 16 Lorraine Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
I think the term I was looking for was gathering up, when it came to my MFT. I got the two works confused. Lorraine Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Florida Cracker horses are pure Spanish (Barb, Jennet) -- they were brought from the islands by the Spanish settlers in Florida That 100% pure anything ancestry claim doesn't impress me too much, with any breed. Icelandic's are 100% pure for 1000 years (approximately) and gosh, see the variation we see in the gaits and conformation within this breed! They are from a tiny, isolated country too. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Robyn Hood wrote: > Sec. 1. Advance and Overstep Advance refers to a long fluid stride > which easily covers ground. Overstep denotes the reach of the hind legs > which should reach well under the horse with very little hock action > either up or sideways. The preferred reach of the hind legs is between > "capping" and 12" of overstep. Understepping will be penalized > Advance should not be accomplished at the expense of elegance and/or > leg action. > > This definition says it all - stepping under should not have hock > action > which means they are not looking for collection and maybe you are > not > looking at it in that way anyway and I have just misunderstood.. The hock action in the best gaited horses I have seen is similar to the drive mechanism in one of the old train locomotives -- it goes back and forth, but not up and down, nor sideways (wobbly hocks). Accordingly, the pelvis doesn't have any up and down movement and the tail hangs straight down like a plumb bob when the horse is moving. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt / Spanish Blood
The very first spotted horses were brought to America by Cortez and SSHBEA (spotted saddle horse) descended from "spanish ponies", the "real" ssh's are short cobby very naturally gaited definitely pony type horses. My friend Sylvias SSH mare is only 13.3hh and stocky. Some say the long long wavey hair in the TWH is a sign of spanish blood. But I have my own theories about that. Where DID gait orginate? Different places at once or all from Spain?? and why spain and not other places, conformation of indigeous breeds?? just thinking aloud haha Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 27, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Janice McDonald wrote: > and define spanish descent florida cracker horses are spanish > descent, Spotted saddle horses, walking horses too arent they?? I > thought gait originated in spain for all gaited breeds but bearing in > mind I probably heard that when I stayed at the holiday inn ... > Janice Florida Cracker horses are pure Spanish (Barb, Jennet) -- they were brought from the islands by the Spanish settlers in Florida (http://www.floridacrackerhorses.com/history.htm) TWHs might have some Spanish blood in them from somewhere -- but they have a whole lot of Thoroughbred and other English trotting and pacing horses in them . . . probably predominantly (http://www.walking-horse.com/past/thebreed.html). Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
RE: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Hi Lynn >>At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable when gaiting -- ie., enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping under the saddle area and is capping or, even better, overstepping by up to 12 inches the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the horse is ventroflexed, any more than a human can stride out with pronounced lumbar lordosis. In fact that is actually the opposite of collection, if you think about piaffe - the hocks are very articulated (bending) and the hind legs stay right underneath the hindquarters to support the weight on the hindquarters. I see lots of gaited horses with a lot of overreach and while I would not say that their backs are necessarily ventroflexed in a stationary way, I think that the backs of gaited horses go more like down and then up to level but not 'up' and then down to level as in non-gaited horses. There is more downward flexibility, than upward, in nearly all the gaited horses I have met. >>>Sec. 1. Advance and Overstep Advance refers to a long fluid stride which easily covers ground. Overstep denotes the reach of the hind legs which should reach well under the horse with very little hock action either up or sideways. The preferred reach of the hind legs is between "capping" and 12" of overstep. Understepping will be penalized Advance should not be accomplished at the expense of elegance and/or leg action. This definition says it all - stepping under should not have hock action which means they are not looking for collection and maybe you are not looking at it in that way anyway and I have just misunderstood.. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
and define spanish descent florida cracker horses are spanish descent, Spotted saddle horses, walking horses too arent they?? I thought gait originated in spain for all gaited breeds but bearing in mind I probably heard that when I stayed at the holiday inn ... Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> I think that it depends who you talk to and the way it is done. Diana >>> Sept and Peggy Cummings have the experience that horses do not have to >>> be, nor should be, ventroflexed to gait. Ventroflexion and collection both occur in varying degrees. Most of us realize (I hope) that trot collects in degrees from "collected trot" to passage to levade - and I doubt many of us have experienced even a truly "collected trot", certainly not many times. A horse doesn't have to be a star-gazing ewe-necked individual to be ventroflexed either. I hope NONE of us put our horses through that - I don't believe that we do. That doesn't mean that they don't have some degree of ventroflexion when they do lateral gaits. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> A long legged, long backed horse like the TWHs or MFTs could maybe pull >>> it off, but we were talking about ventroflexion being necessary fot >>> gait. Just as with the opposite extreme (collection), ventroflexion comes in degrees. A horse doesn't have to have an obvious ewe-neck, sagging belly and be star-gazing to be ventroflexed. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Hi Nancy, >>>It could be something about how my single horse is conformed, but he is always ventroflexed when doing an intermediate gait. He does round up at the trot and canter. I had the idea that his ventroflexed position was a function of the gait. Have I got it wrong - again? I think that it depends who you talk to and the way it is done. Diana Sept and Peggy Cummings have the experience that horses do not have to be, nor should be, ventroflexed to gait. I think that it really depends on the way a horse is worked and their basic conformation makes a difference in how difficult this can be. I think that it really improves the gait when they are worked in a connected way but it seems that most people either ride with way too much rein contact or no rein contact and finding the middle balance is the difficulty. The more a horse is connected to their hind legs the more push from behind. Perhaps, like with lots of things, there is more than one right answer. Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 27, 2008, at 4:21 AM, Karen Thomas wrote: At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable when gaiting -- ie., enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping under the saddle area and is capping or, even better, overstepping by up to 12 inches the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the horse is ventroflexed, > > > Oh, I betcha I could find some horses who can overstride with hollow > backs! > I'm thinking of one right now - of a non-gaited breed. Sure, he can > move > better when he's not hollow, but overstride doesn't define collection. But likely not a gaited horse of Spanish descent, whose breed conformation is short to medium length back, short coupled loins and whose length of leg is equal to depth of body. A long legged, long backed horse like the TWHs or MFTs could maybe pull it off, but we were talking about ventroflexion being necessary fot gait. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> > > Oh, I betcha I could find some horses who can overstride with hollow > backs! Me too - ride him several days a week. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> I think we're using the wrong word in this case. I think "contain" is a > better word. > > Gaited horse trainers incorrectly use the word "collect", but they mean > "gather up" the horse for the frame that is necessary for the gait. > > They are speaking from a position of *riding the horse's face*, pulling the > head and neck to make a change in that area, not collection which starts > from the hindquarters. > > Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward > vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and > that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll be > trotting! Thank you, Judy - this is the biggest part of the confusion with gaited horses and "collection" -- Laree in NC Doppa & Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the "S" gang) "Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them." - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable when gaiting -- ie., >>> enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping under the saddle >>> area and is capping or, even better, overstepping by up to 12 inches the >>> front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the horse is ventroflexed, Oh, I betcha I could find some horses who can overstride with hollow backs! I'm thinking of one right now - of a non-gaited breed. Sure, he can move better when he's not hollow, but overstride doesn't define collection. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>>> And I could feel Rosa's back lift slightly under me as she rotated *her* >>> pelvis and brought her back legs underneath to do a perfect paso llano >>> (rack). There's a lot more to "collection" than lifting the back slightly, and I think that's what Judy is saying. There's no reason for one definition of the term within gaited horses, and another within the general horse world. Collection has been defined for centuries in dressage, so I think that definition wins on sheer longevity. If the universes never collided, maybe it wouldn't be a big issue if there were two distinct definitions, but we hear of more and more gaited horse people talking about taking "dressage lessons" so it DOES get too confusing. I took basic dressage lessons on my big old QH for several years - no interest in showing him, but just some "dressage-lite" for my own interests. During that time, he became less and less strung-out, learned to lift his back - even more than slightly I'd say. His legs began to come up under him more, trailing less, and I began to feel "impulsion" in him - such a joy! All three of his gaits improved, but especially his canter. But in all the years I rode him, even in casual lessons, we didn't even come close to anything a serious dressage person would call "collection" - not close. You might say we made some progress "toward collection", but that term simply isn't used until the "degree of collection" has advanced well beyond anything we're talking about here - even with my 3-gaited horse. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:58:33 -0700, you wrote: >At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable when gaiting -- ie., >enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping under the saddle >area and is capping or, even better, overstepping by up to 12 inches >the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the horse is >ventroflexed But it certainly DOES happen in competition tolt. although tolt is not collected. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes" <>
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 26, 2008, at 8:09 PM, Nancy Sturm wrote: > Judy writes: >>> >>> Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an >>> upward >>> vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, >>> and >>> that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, >>> they'll be >>> trotting! > > And then Lynn writes: >> > Neither horse (nor any of my horses) offered the trot under saddle > -- and > in the show ring the surest way to get a > poorly gaited horse to pasitrote (and get the gate ) is to let it > get > strung out and ventroflexed. > > > It could be something about how my single horse is conformed, but he is > always ventroflexed when doing an intermediate gait. He does round up > at > the trot and canter. I had the idea that his ventroflexed position > was a > function of the gait. Have I got it wrong - again? At least with Peruvians, what is highly desirable when gaiting -- ie., enough reach with the back legs such it is stepping under the saddle area and is capping or, even better, overstepping by up to 12 inches the front hoof prints, really doesn't happen if the horse is ventroflexed, any more than a human can stride out with pronounced lumbar lordosis. Sec. 1. Advance and Overstep Advance refers to a long fluid stride which easily covers ground. Overstep denotes the reach of the hind legs which should reach well under the horse with very little hock action either up or sideways. The preferred reach of the hind legs is between "capping" and 12" of overstep. Understepping will be penalized Advance should not be accomplished at the expense of elegance and/or leg action. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Okay. I am SO connfused. Bear with me while I try to sort this out. I really have only ridden a lot on the one gaited horse, a TWH , with most of my 43 years of riding on Thoroughbred types. Judy writes: >> >> Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward >> vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and >> that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll be >> trotting! And then Lynn writes: > Neither horse (nor any of my horses) offered the trot under saddle -- and in the show ring the surest way to get a poorly gaited horse to pasitrote (and get the gate ) is to let it get strung out and ventroflexed. It could be something about how my single horse is conformed, but he is always ventroflexed when doing an intermediate gait. He does round up at the trot and canter. I had the idea that his ventroflexed position was a function of the gait. Have I got it wrong - again? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Judy Ryder wrote: > >>> There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the >>> horse in tolt is >>> diametrically opposed to collection. >>> >>> It just doesn't happen. >> >> That is good to know. With my MFT it helped the >> foxtrot to collect him. > > I think we're using the wrong word in this case. I think "contain" is > a > better word. > > Gaited horse trainers incorrectly use the word "collect", but they mean > "gather up" the horse for the frame that is necessary for the gait. > > They are speaking from a position of *riding the horse's face*, > pulling the > head and neck to make a change in that area, not collection which > starts > from the hindquarters. > > Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward > vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and > that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll > be > trotting! I disagree. I have had the experience of taking a riding clinic with a classically trained Peruvian trainer, German Baca (http://www.chperuvians.com/CHP-GBaca.html). My mare wasn't gaiting well -- "strung out" and doing what I gather is called a piggy pace -- and German gave me a few simple instructions: pull my elbows in (I looked like I was in City Slickers ), sit up straighter, rotate my pelvis forward. And I could feel Rosa's back lift slightly under me as she rotated *her* pelvis and brought her back legs underneath to do a perfect paso llano (rack). All of this was on a loose rein with her neck in a relaxed arch. My gelding Sinchi was harder to collect -- it took a lot of thigh squeezing in his case -- but only when he was collected would he do a paso llano -- otherwise he did an entrepaso (an unsuspended broken pace). He also worked on a loose rein (one should never ride the face!). Neither horse (nor any of my horses) offered the trot under saddle -- and in the show ring the surest way to get a poorly gaited horse to pasitrote (and get the gate ) is to let it get strung out and ventroflexed. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>> Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward >> vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and >> that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll be >> trotting! > > Judy, do you mean ALL soft gaits, or just the racking family of gaits? > Because I was under the impression the running walk could have the > beginnings of collection, and the foxtrot could be collected to some > degree. > Is that incorrect? All soft gaits... because the "beginnings of collection" aren't collection. Lee tried very hard to get a fox trot collected, but never succeeded and no one else has as far as we know. It is easier for us to use other words and not let "collection" seep into the verbage for gaited horses as it gets taken out of context. Interesting, because there has been a recent discussion on the classical dressage list about gaited horses (it pops up every so often) which reminds me that it's not really a subject that's up for argument with the icelandic-style trainers. The dressage-ists are aware that easy gaits aren't collected and are able to see it. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward > vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and > that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll be > trotting! Judy, do you mean ALL soft gaits, or just the racking family of gaits? Because I was under the impression the running walk could have the beginnings of collection, and the foxtrot could be collected to some degree. Is that incorrect? > > Here are some articles written about the use of the words collect and > collection in regard to gaited horses: I will have to check these out. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > an icelandic speaker would call english "foxtrot", > > "tolt".<< > > I was once ignorant about gaits, too. But I learned. Susan, SNORT : ) !!! I do think we are kindred spirits. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
>> There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the >> horse in tolt is >> diametrically opposed to collection. >> >> It just doesn't happen. > > That is good to know. With my MFT it helped the > foxtrot to collect him. I think we're using the wrong word in this case. I think "contain" is a better word. Gaited horse trainers incorrectly use the word "collect", but they mean "gather up" the horse for the frame that is necessary for the gait. They are speaking from a position of *riding the horse's face*, pulling the head and neck to make a change in that area, not collection which starts from the hindquarters. Collection is not present in the easy gaits. Collection has an upward vector, and the easy gaits have an earth-bound vector... opposite, and that's what makes them "easy" gaits :-). If we collect them, they'll be trotting! Here are some articles written about the use of the words collect and collection in regard to gaited horses: http://iceryder.net/icecollection.html http://iceryder.net/collection.html http://leeziegler.com/gaitcollect.html Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> > an icelandic speaker would call english "foxtrot", > "tolt". > > And you find this funny because??? It was supposed to be funny? I missed that part. Lorraine Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > an icelandic speaker would call english "foxtrot", > "tolt".<< I was once ignorant about gaits, too. But I learned. Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On 26/03/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > *rofl* > > an icelandic speaker would call english "foxtrot", "tolt". And you find this funny because??? Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 09:24:04PM -0700, Lorraine wrote: > > There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the > > horse in tolt is > > diametrically opposed to collection. > > > > It just doesn't happen. > > That is good to know. With my MFT it helped the > foxtrot to collect him. So I figured it was the same > for tolting. *rofl* an icelandic speaker would call english "foxtrot", "tolt". --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
On 3/25/08, Lorraine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the > > horse in tolt is > > diametrically opposed to collection. > > > > It just doesn't happen. > > > > That is good to know. With my MFT it helped the > foxtrot to collect him. So I figured it was the same > for tolting. > > Lorraine > the tolt is a rack, they have to sorta uncoil. The speed rackers and flying pacers, if you imagine them without a rider, they are stretched long, head up and out, tail flying straight out. Not many "collected" horses are uncoiled and strung out like that. That is my layman language explanation :) In my video of my Stonewall doing a pace... when i ride him he does a saddlerack, always. When my husband rode him he did a fast pace. Was it the larger heavier saddle? The Tucker saddle? Was it my husband weighs almost a hundred pounds more and that weight distributed over a foot taller frame? Was it the way he sits? I have my suspicions and we will test it this weekend... I never let stonewall on that loose a rein. He is a whirler. But my husband has never been slung off him like riding a helicopter blade so he just let him have his head. When i ride him I give him about a two inch slack on each side and thats it. I kinda suspect thats why he saddleracks with me. Because on the trail when others were in front of him and he couldnt go as fast as he wanted with my husband, he saddle racked. I think the more they can uncoil and string out the more they are racky/pacey. (if built that way) jmo. maybe totally wrong. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
Lorraine, If you ever get the chance to take your horse to one of Liz Graves clinics you should definitely go. She looks at your individual horse, its confirmation, gaits, and how you are riding then makes clear suggestions on what you can do to get the best gait out of your horse. As I understand gaits some Icelandics tend more to trotty and some to pacey... depending on which way your horse leans you may need to do some collection to get the smoothest gait for your horse's confirmation. Jacki "World Change Starts with Educated Children" Proud supporter of Room to Read www.roomtoread.org Jacki Curreri Edens
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the > horse in tolt is > diametrically opposed to collection. > > It just doesn't happen. That is good to know. With my MFT it helped the foxtrot to collect him. So I figured it was the same for tolting. Lorraine Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] Collection in Tolt
> > There is no collection in tolt. The frame of the horse in tolt is > diametrically opposed to collection. Amen. Nancy>
