Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:17 AM, Leigh wrote: > On 30 September 2014 23:05, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: >> >> And anyone with a wiki account can vote too, meaning everyone who >> wrote an RFC can in theory vote on anything, take for example fabpot, >> who does not have an VCS account but can vote still because he have a >> wiki account, which is outside that boundary. >> > > Sorry have to contest this one. I could not vote with purely wiki RFC > karma. I could create RFCs but could not vote without an upgrade. I can confirm that. I only have a wiki.php.net account, I've written RFCs and I can't vote. And that's how it should be IMO. Wiki accounts can be given way more easily, anybody can request one on the grounds of just having some idea. There has to be _some_ barrier after all. Cheers, Andrey. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 30 September 2014 23:05, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: > > And anyone with a wiki account can vote too, meaning everyone who > wrote an RFC can in theory vote on anything, take for example fabpot, > who does not have an VCS account but can vote still because he have a > wiki account, which is outside that boundary. > Sorry have to contest this one. I could not vote with purely wiki RFC karma. I could create RFCs but could not vote without an upgrade. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
2014-09-30 21:59 GMT+02:00 Andrey Andreev : > Well, let's see ... what is the current status quo? > > Currently, all voters have VCS accounts, meaning that they already are > at least one of: > > a) C code contributors > b) documentation contributors > c) contributing to the php.net website or something else but similar And anyone with a wiki account can vote too, meaning everyone who wrote an RFC can in theory vote on anything, take for example fabpot, who does not have an VCS account but can vote still because he have a wiki account, which is outside that boundary. regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 30 September 2014 20:31, Sharon Levy wrote: > > If more users were educated about PHP's internals, then there could be more > substantive discussions between Userland and core contributors, including > better ideas originating from Userland. More users might even consider > becoming core contributors. It would change the status quo. > It's up to you to educate yourself. You don't have to be amazing, you just have to be willing. Uncomfortable with C? Get out of your comfort zone. If you've done PHP for more than a couple of years you have more than enough background to kick start yourself. Please don't take this as some condescending statement, take a few hours, dive in, change something small, get it working and get a sense of achievement from it. Come and join that chat on IRC or Stack Overflow, there are numerous people who _want to help_ you get better at this. Being even slightly familiar with the internals is a _huge_ advantage when it comes to discussing and voting on core language changes. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between a vote for "ooh shiny, do want" and "crap this will break everything". Makes sense for the people voting to have some sort of understanding beyond the superficial right? -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Andrey Andreev wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Sharon Levy > wrote: > > > > > > From: Andrey Andreev > > Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM > > To: Sharon Levy > > Cc: Zeev Suraski , Derick Rethans , > Andrea > > Faulds , PHP internals > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on > > RFCs? > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy > wrote: > > > >> >> I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and > pass a > >> >> test > >> >> demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire > >> >> voting > >> >> privileges. > >> > > >> >So, in order to vote, users should become (capable of being) core > >> >contributors? :) > >> >How does that change anything? > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> >Andrey. > > > > "... the important truths, that knolege is power, that knolege is safety, > > and that knolege is happiness." -- Thomas Jefferson > > > > If more users were educated about PHP's internals, then there could be > more > > substantive discussions between Userland and core contributors, including > > better ideas originating from Userland. More users might even consider > > becoming core contributors. It would change the status quo. > > > > Well, let's see ... what is the current status quo? > > Currently, all voters have VCS accounts, meaning that they already are > at least one of: > > a) C code contributors > b) documentation contributors > c) contributing to the php.net website or something else but similar > > It is written somewhere that maintainers of popular userland > frameworks and tools _could_ get voting privileges, but the voters > from this group are voters because they already have VCS accounts for > other purposes. It is otherwise undefined how that happens - this is > as close as you can get to the meaning of "status quo" as far as > userland people are concerned. > > What this basically means is that currently you ARE required to either > know C and PHP's internals, or to take care of all the not really fun > (for a programmer) stuff that surrounds it. > It that hasn't encouraged more people to contribute, how would taking > away non-C-contributors' votes be an encouragement? If I was a php-doc > contributor, that would be you showing me the middle finger, not > encouragement. > > Sure, it would change the status quo, but for the worse. > > Cheers, > Andrey. > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > +1 I agree completely. This discussion has raised another issue though that I think merits further consideration: What standards do we use to give VCS accounts-- or karma, for that matter. As many have pointed out already, we don't currently have a consistent, quantifiable standard for either of these. This can lead to some people getting VCS creds who may not have actually done anything to merit that, at least according to some people here. Likewise, there is no specific standard for giving people karma; just a vague understanding that those who contribute "enough" will eventually maybe get it. If you want to tackle the problem of new people not being motivated to contribute, that's probably the #1 (or maybe #2, behind the steep learning curve) reason why there's an absense of fresh faces submitting code. As someone who has been a project manager over the years, I can tell you that nothing motivates people more than giving them set goals to achieve and rewards for achieving them. For example, if you contribute x number of patches, resolve y number of bugs, z number of pull requests, etc, you'll qualify for basic karma. That would provide a quantifiable incentive and I guarantee you we'll get people who will start contributing in order to meet that goal and get that feather in their cap. Right now, most people don't even know who grants karma, how to request it, or when it's appropriate to request it. The current, "Just contribute steadily over time and we'll see" message may have the advantage of giving us greater discretion, but it does nothing to motivate people to participate. As far as VCS access goes, having specific metrics like that probably wouldn't be feasible since it's much more of a case-by-case basis sorta thing. We could establish some general guidelines, though. To prevent VCS accounts from being given out frivolously, as some have complained, I suggest we treat
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Sharon Levy wrote: > > > From: Andrey Andreev > Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM > To: Sharon Levy > Cc: Zeev Suraski , Derick Rethans , Andrea > Faulds , PHP internals > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on > RFCs? > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy wrote: > >> >> I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a >> >> test >> >> demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire >> >> voting >> >> privileges. >> > >> >So, in order to vote, users should become (capable of being) core >> >contributors? :) >> >How does that change anything? >> > >> >Cheers, >> >Andrey. > > "... the important truths, that knolege is power, that knolege is safety, > and that knolege is happiness." -- Thomas Jefferson > > If more users were educated about PHP's internals, then there could be more > substantive discussions between Userland and core contributors, including > better ideas originating from Userland. More users might even consider > becoming core contributors. It would change the status quo. > Well, let's see ... what is the current status quo? Currently, all voters have VCS accounts, meaning that they already are at least one of: a) C code contributors b) documentation contributors c) contributing to the php.net website or something else but similar It is written somewhere that maintainers of popular userland frameworks and tools _could_ get voting privileges, but the voters from this group are voters because they already have VCS accounts for other purposes. It is otherwise undefined how that happens - this is as close as you can get to the meaning of "status quo" as far as userland people are concerned. What this basically means is that currently you ARE required to either know C and PHP's internals, or to take care of all the not really fun (for a programmer) stuff that surrounds it. It that hasn't encouraged more people to contribute, how would taking away non-C-contributors' votes be an encouragement? If I was a php-doc contributor, that would be you showing me the middle finger, not encouragement. Sure, it would change the status quo, but for the worse. Cheers, Andrey. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
From: Andrey Andreev Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM To: Sharon Levy Cc: Zeev Suraski , Derick Rethans , Andrea Faulds , PHP internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs? On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy wrote: > >> I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a > >> test > >> demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire voting > >> privileges. > > > >So, in order to vote, users should become (capable of being) core > >contributors? :) > >How does that change anything? > > > >Cheers, > >Andrey. "... the important truths, that knolege is power, that knolege is safety, and that knolege is happiness." -- Thomas Jefferson If more users were educated about PHP's internals, then there could be more substantive discussions between Userland and core contributors, including better ideas originating from Userland. More users might even consider becoming core contributors. It would change the status quo.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Andrey Andreev wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy wrote: > > > > ... > > > > I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a > test > > demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire > voting > > privileges. > > So, in order to vote, users should become (capable of being) core > contributors? :) > How does that change anything? > > Cheers, > Andrey. > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > Which is better, Democracy or Meritocracy? Perhaps some combination of both? Either way, it's a difficult question with no perfect answers. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy wrote: > > ... > > I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a test > demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire voting > privileges. So, in order to vote, users should become (capable of being) core contributors? :) How does that change anything? Cheers, Andrey. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
Last, the 2nd sub-bullet of the 2nd bullet ("regular participant of
internals discussions") is especially problematic - as it basically pulls
the barrier to entry to nothing, and is the opposite of well-defined.
When
we revise the Voting RFC, it should go IMHO. Talk is cheap - the way to
get
a vote with PHP is to contribute - be it with code, docs, testing,
frameworks or apps.
Zeev
Some years back I read the Voting RFC which stated:
"Changes made to the PHP language will affect millions of people, and
theoretically, each and every one of them should have a say in what we do.
For obvious reasons, though, this isn't a practical approach." So, Userland
is entitled but for some undelineated reason we are denied the vote.
This business of "Talk is cheap" actually means that it is far easier to say
that you're going to do something compared to actually following through and
doing it since the doing may involve quite a bit more labor, time and cost.
If talk were truly a waste of time, then there'd be little justification for
having an Internals List.
As a user myself, I feel that denying Userland voting privileges is wrong.
The truth is that while it would appear that PHP's fate lies in the hands of
its core contributors and maintainers, actually it is Userland that will
always have the final say. The worst thing is not forking PHP. What is
worst is if users were to stop using PHP.
I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a test
demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire voting
privileges.
S Levy
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 23, 2014 8:17 PM, "Zeev Suraski" wrote: > > I'd welcome better suggestions if anybody has any. I think the complete > lack of metrics and exceptionally low barrier to voting is a much bigger > problem. > Please point me at a vote where the author is not part of what you defined (and the rfc): - php karma (doc) - lead of leading projects Now to create classes along developers or regular contributors is the worst idea we can have. It says that writing docs is less valuable than a PoC. Wrong in so many ways. > Perhaps LoC? Oh gosh... > > That said, 20 commits is an exceptionally low bar IMHO to get a say for a > project with a *HUGE* impact such as PHP. And what's about zero commit in 5+ years? This discussion has the bad taste of creating a kind of elite in php.net.
RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> -Original Message- > From: Robert Stoll [mailto:p...@tutteli.ch] > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 5:48 PM > To: 'Ferenc Kovacs'; 'Andrey Andreev' > Cc: 'Florian Anderiasch'; 'Zeev Suraski'; 'Derick Rethans'; 'Andrea > Faulds'; 'PHP > internals' > Subject: AW: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on > RFCs? > > > > one of your pr's did not keep the author info, it seems as it was > > squashed > into a single commit: > > http://git.php.net/?p=php- > src.git;a=commit;h=ec2fff80e768dfb04aa393c06 > > a2b1a42a9e871ff so it isn't a problem with the list, but how your PR > > was merged. > > ofc. probably there are other similar cases, so the potential number > > of people with more than 20 commits could be different, but this the > > info > we have easy access to, and I don't think that it would change the numbers > significantly. > > > > -- > > Ferenc Kovács > > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu > > I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric. I'd welcome better suggestions if anybody has any. I think the complete lack of metrics and exceptionally low barrier to voting is a much bigger problem. Perhaps LoC? That said, 20 commits is an exceptionally low bar IMHO to get a say for a project with a *HUGE* impact such as PHP. I think it might look high since people got used to the idea that they can vote even if they've never contributed anything to PHP at all. I suspect that if I asked people from the Linux Kernel community what they think about the idea that someone who contributed 20 commits to the kernel would have the same say as Linus Torvalds, they'd think I had a bit too much to drink. Zeev -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Robert Stoll wrote: > >> > > >> > > I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric. >> > > People's commit behaviour is different. Some commit only once after >> > > everything is done and others commit regularly after each achieved >> > > small step towards the goal. >> > > I belong rather to the second group. Why should I be favoured over >> > > another person who has only one commit in his pull request? >> > > >> > > >> > are you favored? >> > I was just pointing out a factual error about a claim in an earlier >> message and how other factors can influence the number of >> > commits counted attributed to a person. >> > >> >> Sorry, you obviously interpreted my message in a way I did not intend to >> bring it over. I did not intend to attack you or something. I merely wanted >> to point out that there are additional aspects which makes number of >> commits a rather fuzzy metric. >> If this metric were be used then people which commit more regularly would >> be favoured and with committing regularly I do not mean implement many >> features, fixing bugs etc. but just that they use the git command "commit" >> more often than others. >> >> > and I completely agree with that. > replying to my email (which only corrected some numbers) seemed like you > are assuming/projecting that it was my idea to bring those numbers to the > discussion. > > -- > Ferenc Kovács > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu > for the record: I've just approved two outstanding account requests from people who already contributed sufficient amount of patches through PRs and explicitly stated that they don't want php-src karma for now, but they want to be able to assign bugs to themselves and one of them also mentioned that he wants to be able to vote on RFCs. I think that it was ok to approve their accounts (otherwise I wouldn't done it), but this means two more accounts without karma (albeit probably that will change as they get more confident and realize that it doesn't really matter who merges the PR as long as it is properly discussed and reviewed). -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Robert Stoll wrote: > > > > > > I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric. > > > People's commit behaviour is different. Some commit only once after > > > everything is done and others commit regularly after each achieved > > > small step towards the goal. > > > I belong rather to the second group. Why should I be favoured over > > > another person who has only one commit in his pull request? > > > > > > > > are you favored? > > I was just pointing out a factual error about a claim in an earlier > message and how other factors can influence the number of > > commits counted attributed to a person. > > > > Sorry, you obviously interpreted my message in a way I did not intend to > bring it over. I did not intend to attack you or something. I merely wanted > to point out that there are additional aspects which makes number of > commits a rather fuzzy metric. > If this metric were be used then people which commit more regularly would > be favoured and with committing regularly I do not mean implement many > features, fixing bugs etc. but just that they use the git command "commit" > more often than others. > > and I completely agree with that. replying to my email (which only corrected some numbers) seemed like you are assuming/projecting that it was my idea to bring those numbers to the discussion. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Stoll wrote: > > > one of your pr's did not keep the author info, it seems as it was > squashed into a single commit: > > > http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=commit;h=ec2fff80e768dfb04aa393c06a2b1a42a9e871ff > > so it isn't a problem with the list, but how your PR was merged. > > ofc. probably there are other similar cases, so the potential number of > people with more than 20 commits could be > > different, but this the info we have easy access to, and I don't think > that it would change the numbers significantly. > > > > -- > > Ferenc Kovács > > @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu > > I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric. > People's commit behaviour is different. Some commit only once after > everything is done and others commit regularly after each achieved small > step towards the goal. > I belong rather to the second group. Why should I be favoured over another > person who has only one commit in his pull request? > > are you favored? I was just pointing out a factual error about a claim in an earlier message and how other factors can influence the number of commits counted attributed to a person. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Andrey Andreev wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch > > wrote: > > > >> On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > >> > The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly > >> > states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code > >> contributions > >> > to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to > also > >> > account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. > I'd > >> > also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits > >> (say > >> > 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't > have > >> the > >> > same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of > commits. > >> I > >> > believe this data can be easily pulled from git. > >> > >> That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at > >> https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 > >> people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. (Incidentally I'm > >> at the very bottom with 22, should I be happy to just have made the cut > >> if php-src commits are the only metric?) > >> > > > > from a quick look that list only contains the contributors with an > existing > > (and matching) github account. > > there are around 170 accounts with 20 or more commits: > > https://gist.github.com/Tyrael/3bf0d24d33cf6b9e828b > > ofc. some of those accounts are technical ones like the one with the > empty > > name (was used for changelog entries from a quick look), and there are > also > > some commits which were done by the same person but using different > > email/author name. > > Even that list is not complete - it shows me with only 1 commit while > I've got 2 pull requests merged. > > one of your pr's did not keep the author info, it seems as it was squashed into a single commit: http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=commit;h=ec2fff80e768dfb04aa393c06a2b1a42a9e871ff so it isn't a problem with the list, but how your PR was merged. ofc. probably there are other similar cases, so the potential number of people with more than 20 commits could be different, but this the info we have easy access to, and I don't think that it would change the numbers significantly. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> > > That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at > https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 > people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. I believe this may be partially due to the fact that github will only show contributors to the default branch (master in our case). There are some other reasons why commits may not be attributed; see https://help.github.com/articles/why-are-my-contributions-not-showing-up-on-my-profile Obviously this was just a very unscientific scan, but worth noting.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch > wrote: > >> On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: >> > The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly >> > states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code >> contributions >> > to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also >> > account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd >> > also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits >> (say >> > 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have >> the >> > same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. >> I >> > believe this data can be easily pulled from git. >> >> That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at >> https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 >> people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. (Incidentally I'm >> at the very bottom with 22, should I be happy to just have made the cut >> if php-src commits are the only metric?) >> > > from a quick look that list only contains the contributors with an existing > (and matching) github account. > there are around 170 accounts with 20 or more commits: > https://gist.github.com/Tyrael/3bf0d24d33cf6b9e828b > ofc. some of those accounts are technical ones like the one with the empty > name (was used for changelog entries from a quick look), and there are also > some commits which were done by the same person but using different > email/author name. Even that list is not complete - it shows me with only 1 commit while I've got 2 pull requests merged. Cheers, Andrey. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch wrote: > On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly > > states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code > contributions > > to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also > > account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd > > also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits > (say > > 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have > the > > same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. > I > > believe this data can be easily pulled from git. > > That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at > https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 > people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. (Incidentally I'm > at the very bottom with 22, should I be happy to just have made the cut > if php-src commits are the only metric?) > from a quick look that list only contains the contributors with an existing (and matching) github account. there are around 170 accounts with 20 or more commits: https://gist.github.com/Tyrael/3bf0d24d33cf6b9e828b ofc. some of those accounts are technical ones like the one with the empty name (was used for changelog entries from a quick look), and there are also some commits which were done by the same person but using different email/author name. -- Ferenc Kovács @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch wrote: > On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: >> The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly >> states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code contributions >> to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also >> account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd >> also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits (say >> 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have the >> same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. I >> believe this data can be easily pulled from git. > > That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at > https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 > people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. (Incidentally I'm > at the very bottom with 22, should I be happy to just have made the cut > if php-src commits are the only metric?) > > I'm not saying karma could be revoked after a few years, especially if > there were cases where it was given back instantly on return, but this > all sounds like a bureaucratic mess. Also, how do you value people > reproducing bugs, checking the bugtracker, testing every build, etc.pp? > There are a lot of tasks that are a lot more important in every day work > than only writing internals code. > > I don't have a solution ready, but maybe I'm just too much in the middle > ground - not a day to day contributor, but with an account nearly 11 > years old and enough inactivity breaks of months to years I feel > entitled enough to see both sides. also the method is by far buggy, for me at least :) I have way more than 133 commits in php history, maybe got lost somehow in git migration, no idea :) https://www.openhub.net/p/php/contributors?query=&sort=commits shows more but also incomplete, for what php-src contains. The funny part is when we look at the recent, or 1-5 years activity, if we begin to apply such insane filters to allow votes, some may not even vote anymore. In short, let trash this horrible idea. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly > states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code contributions > to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also > account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd > also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits (say > 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have the > same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. I > believe this data can be easily pulled from git. That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50 people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src. (Incidentally I'm at the very bottom with 22, should I be happy to just have made the cut if php-src commits are the only metric?) I'm not saying karma could be revoked after a few years, especially if there were cases where it was given back instantly on return, but this all sounds like a bureaucratic mess. Also, how do you value people reproducing bugs, checking the bugtracker, testing every build, etc.pp? There are a lot of tasks that are a lot more important in every day work than only writing internals code. I don't have a solution ready, but maybe I'm just too much in the middle ground - not a day to day contributor, but with an account nearly 11 years old and enough inactivity breaks of months to years I feel entitled enough to see both sides. Greetings, Florian -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:21 AM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > The approach I have in mind is going back to a consensus model by > default, allowing truly everybody to participate and giving the > opportunity to call for a vote if consensus can't be reached. It never worked in the last decade+, what makes you think it will work all of a sudden? All I see is some being afraid to loose control while all RFCs show that it is by far not the case. The active core devs did not loose control and we reached many consensuses. We have a couple of issues but the roots of them are very clear. All is all there is no reason to go back in a very bad time for php. > Given our > social diversity I however think that this hardly works out as there > always will be somebody calling for a vote ... obvious consequence would > be a quorum for calling for a vote .. wich ends up in even more > bureaucracy hell. There is no bureaucracy hell but an end to endless discussions, pressures, and other nonconstructive behaviors. The recent RFC events about starting, ending, counting are unlucky but easily fixable. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 2014-09-22 at 14:36 -0700, Kris Craig wrote: > > > > Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by > > people who > > > don't want to maintain it themselves? > > > > Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You choose to contribute to PHP > > in the manner in which you do, just as other people choose to > > contribute in different, sometimes less obvious, ways. > > Right, nobody can truely enforce me doing something, still I gave some > form of promise/commitment to less so since 5.3 reached EOL but still > this might require me to do something. > > > Probably even due to votes by people > > > about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by > > > most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base. > > > > > > And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model. > > > > It can. Every project is governed differently. > > Well democracy can mean so many things - in ancient Greece, the origin > of democracy, only the men of a social group had a vote. Even in > Switzerland, which is famous for its direct democracy, women weren't > allowed to vote till 1971 (in the canton Appenzell Innerrhoden even only > till 1990 for municipal issues) in others the voting power is unequally > distributed (see i.e. the EU parliament where larger countries have less > MEPs than smaller ones and different voting system's in different > countries give different weight to citizens of different countries) > > Anyways this is a way different debate. > Fair enough. > > > Winston Churchill once famously said that democracy is the worst form > > of government, except all the others that have been tried. > > While this depends on your view on what is good - Louis XIV of France > was quite happy with his, I assume. But government of a society is > different from governance of a software project. One case leads to a > revolution, the other to a fork. > Also fair enough. > > > The > > > democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the > > project and > > > eventually receive a higher traction. > > > > And then we can have dozens of competing PHP codebases floating > > around. > > That's were the social aspect comes back in - even people without a > formal vote have ability to impact the project. > But that's assuming the threat of fork will be enough, thereby keeping forks to a minimum. I'm not sure I can concur with that assumption. > > > The problem with that model is that history has consistently shown > > that those in power may listen, but will ultimately just do what they > > want, anyway. > > If those with power will "ultimately just do what they want, anyway" the > official form of governance doesn't matter at all. Thanks for agreeing > to that :-D > I think you misunderstood. Ignoring vote results derived from a legitimized process that was agreed to is much more difficult that ignoring a request made by some person without karma, with or without the threat of a fork. > > But as this went to a path through European history let me reiterate and > clarify what I said in a different post in this thread: The strict > dependence on a vote impacts the constructive feedback for proposers > negatively. It also provides no feedbackloop for leading to constructive > critic being ignored, it becomes less clear whether voters were aware of > that. It also makes simple contributions hard, adding quite some > transactional cost for small improvements by newcomers. (then again here > is no clear and objective measure what "small" includes) This is > demotivating for all sides. > I wouldn't be against modifying the voting process to require everyone to state a brief reason for their vote in order for it to be counted. The current table could be modified to add a text column easily enough, I'm sure, and the results could display the reason next to each vote in the row. I think that would at least help mitigate the concerns you're raising here. > > The approach I have in mind is going back to a consensus model by > default, allowing truly everybody to participate and giving the > opportunity to call for a vote if consensus can't be reached. Given our > social diversity I however think that this hardly works out as there > always will be somebody calling for a vote ... obvious consequence would > be a quorum for calling for a vote .. wich ends up in even more > bureaucracy hell. > I've noticed that minor changes are already made all the time without a vote being called and I don't have any problem with that, nor am I aware of anyone else who does. Perhaps we could clarify exactly when a vote is required and when it's not, but since that does not appear to have been an issue thus far, it would probably just be a solution in search of a problem. > > > > I feel it's also worth reminding everyone that VCS accounts generally > > aren't given away like candy. Most people who have that
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
Hi, On Mon, 2014-09-22 at 14:36 -0700, Kris Craig wrote: > > Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by > people who > > don't want to maintain it themselves? > > Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You choose to contribute to PHP > in the manner in which you do, just as other people choose to > contribute in different, sometimes less obvious, ways. Right, nobody can truely enforce me doing something, still I gave some form of promise/commitment to less so since 5.3 reached EOL but still this might require me to do something. > Probably even due to votes by people > > about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by > > most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base. > > > > And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model. > > It can. Every project is governed differently. Well democracy can mean so many things - in ancient Greece, the origin of democracy, only the men of a social group had a vote. Even in Switzerland, which is famous for its direct democracy, women weren't allowed to vote till 1971 (in the canton Appenzell Innerrhoden even only till 1990 for municipal issues) in others the voting power is unequally distributed (see i.e. the EU parliament where larger countries have less MEPs than smaller ones and different voting system's in different countries give different weight to citizens of different countries) Anyways this is a way different debate. > Winston Churchill once famously said that democracy is the worst form > of government, except all the others that have been tried. While this depends on your view on what is good - Louis XIV of France was quite happy with his, I assume. But government of a society is different from governance of a software project. One case leads to a revolution, the other to a fork. > The > > democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the > project and > > eventually receive a higher traction. > > And then we can have dozens of competing PHP codebases floating > around. That's were the social aspect comes back in - even people without a formal vote have ability to impact the project. > The problem with that model is that history has consistently shown > that those in power may listen, but will ultimately just do what they > want, anyway. If those with power will "ultimately just do what they want, anyway" the official form of governance doesn't matter at all. Thanks for agreeing to that :-D But as this went to a path through European history let me reiterate and clarify what I said in a different post in this thread: The strict dependence on a vote impacts the constructive feedback for proposers negatively. It also provides no feedbackloop for leading to constructive critic being ignored, it becomes less clear whether voters were aware of that. It also makes simple contributions hard, adding quite some transactional cost for small improvements by newcomers. (then again here is no clear and objective measure what "small" includes) This is demotivating for all sides. The approach I have in mind is going back to a consensus model by default, allowing truly everybody to participate and giving the opportunity to call for a vote if consensus can't be reached. Given our social diversity I however think that this hardly works out as there always will be somebody calling for a vote ... obvious consequence would be a quorum for calling for a vote .. wich ends up in even more bureaucracy hell. > > I feel it's also worth reminding everyone that VCS accounts generally > aren't given away like candy. Most people who have that access have > done something or another to earn it. It depends on the time of day and position of the stars, sometimes they are thrown on people unless they run really fast, sometimes nobody looks after requests ... :) johannes > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 22, 2014 8:39 AM, "Johannes Schlüter" wrote: > > > > On September 22, 2014 4:21:29 PM CEST, Rafael Kassner wrote: > >IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a > >company's > >product, or, in another words, "you use what we built and shut up", > >because > >only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only > >votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are > >choosing some particular option on a RFC, but they are making their > >opinion > >count, and I think this kind of "democracy power" shouldn't be voided. > > Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by people who > don't want to maintain it themselves? Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You choose to contribute to PHP in the manner in which you do, just as other people choose to contribute in different, sometimes less obvious, ways. Probably even due to votes by people > about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by > most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base. > > And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model. It can. Every project is governed differently. Winston Churchill once famously said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried. The > democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the project and > eventually receive a higher traction. And then we can have dozens of competing PHP codebases floating around. But no, "one man one vote" and full > equality doesn't work out. (i.e. if a modules primary maintainer vetos a > change I have to mind that [which doesn't mean I have to agree in the > end]) > > >Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal > >changes > >are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC > >breaks > >that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy > >to > >say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change > >and > >community people are making their opinion count. > > There are no plans (and enough people who'd veto such plans) to close > the mailing list. Everybody might state their opinion and we are happy to > receive (constructive) feedback and ideas here. And yes, this can be a bit > painful due to different forms of "trolling" but leads to better results respecting > more opinions than a yes/no vote. The problem with that model is that history has consistently shown that those in power may listen, but will ultimately just do what they want, anyway. > > johannes > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > I feel it's also worth reminding everyone that VCS accounts generally aren't given away like candy. Most people who have that access have done something or another to earn it. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 22 September 2014 04:32, Derick Rethans wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
>> is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to
>> the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the
>> ability to vote on RFCs?
>>
>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think
>> doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors.
>> However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page)
>> voting irks me.
>
> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the
> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to.
+1. I've said this plenty over the last couple of years, as IRC
regulars can attest to. Ultimately, people who actually know and
maintain the codebase should be making the final decisions.
Which is definitely not to say that we shouldn't be listening to
people outside the voting group — obviously, we should listen, and get
feedback. I just don't believe that the haziness of the current
process ("we might give you a voting account if you meet mostly
undefined criteria which no two people actually agree on, which then
allows you to provide a single tick with no feedback") encourages
that, and at some point we're going to end up with a feature being
committed that is going to cause major headaches for day to day
developers.
Adam
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RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 22, 2014 8:56 PM, "Zeev Suraski" wrote: > account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd > also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits (say > 20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have the > same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. I > believe this data can be easily pulled from git. And let add a time since actual last commit too? This is bad in so many ways...
RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 22, 2014 8:56 PM, "Zeev Suraski" wrote:
> Last, the 2nd sub-bullet of the 2nd bullet ("regular participant of
> internals discussions") is especially problematic - as it basically pulls
> the barrier to entry to nothing, and is the opposite of well-defined.
When
> we revise the Voting RFC, it should go IMHO. Talk is cheap - the way to
get
> a vote with PHP is to contribute - be it with code, docs, testing,
> frameworks or apps.
To kill the FUD about totally random ppl being able to vote:
To my knowdlege, nobody fitting in what is describe in this last line ever
voted. If someone knows a case where it happened, let me know.
RE: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> -Original Message-
> From: Derick Rethans [mailto:der...@php.net]
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 2:33 PM
> To: Andrea Faulds
> Cc: PHP internals
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on
> RFCs?
>
> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the section
> of
> the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to.
I agree with that, to a degree. I think it depends on whether we're talking
about implementation RFCs or feature RFCs.
As I mentioned in the past, when the Voting RFC was written - I never
envisioned it would be used for implementation decisions. Maybe it was
short sighted, maybe not - but to me, it was obvious that implementation
would be up to the respective code owners, and not the full voter base. So
yes, implementation issues that deal with the engine should be decided by
those who have engine karma. Implementation decisions to the mysqli
extension should be up to those who contributed to this codebase, even if
there's just a handful of them. And so on and so forth. Johannes recent
comments about maintenance of code are a major reason behind this approach,
but it goes beyond fairness. The contributors are the domain experts in the
respective implementations - it makes no sense to open this up to the voter
base at large. You want to have a say? By all means, work your way in and
contribute; Once you do, you'd have a vote. Until then, you have a voice
in internals, but not a vote.
The second group is trickier - and those are language features and other
types of votes. The way we work today - where SVN yes/no is the only
question - was absolutely not the intent of the Voting RFC and thankfully,
it's also clearly not the language it contains. The original RFC read the
following:
* People with php.net SVN accounts that have contributed code to PHP
* Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with
php.net SVN accounts
Unfortunately, this was changed without me noticing it at the time, to the
following:
* People with php.net SVN accounts that have contributed code to PHP
* Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by those with
php.net SVN accounts
* Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms, tools, etc.)
* regular participant of internals discussions
The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly
states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code contributions
to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also
account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd
also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits (say
20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have the
same vote as someone who contributed hundreds or thousands of commits. I
believe this data can be easily pulled from git.
While we're at it, IMHO, the second bucket is open ended and must be much
more well defined. I think we need a process where people from the
community can be nominated and voted on - either by people from the first
line, or by some sort of a public community poll. Having 'elections' for
representatives from the community doesn't sound like a bad idea to me :)
Another option is to take the 1-2 top contributors of the 10-20 top PHP
projects on github. That's probably a lot easier and would eliminate much
of the politics involved.
Last, the 2nd sub-bullet of the 2nd bullet ("regular participant of
internals discussions") is especially problematic - as it basically pulls
the barrier to entry to nothing, and is the opposite of well-defined. When
we revise the Voting RFC, it should go IMHO. Talk is cheap - the way to get
a vote with PHP is to contribute - be it with code, docs, testing,
frameworks or apps.
Zeev
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 9/20/14, 0:11 , Sara Golemon wrote: On Sep 19, 2014, at 18:29, Andrea Faulds wrote: Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, Yes, you are. but I wonder if it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs? Yes, it is. -Sara Yes, What Sara said. I am the type of person that would be excluded. I contributed to PHP a lot 10 years ago. However, in all the SVN and GIT moving, all my karma has long since been removed. I vote in almost every RFC because I have a long history with PHP and care about where it is going. People with dead accounts and who don't care about PHP most likely don't vote. Brian Moon brianlm...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by people who > don't want to maintain it themselves? Probably even due to votes by people > about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by > most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base. The same applies to many new codes. Even more for my team as we have to take care of many issues where only a few actually takes care of. > And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model. The > democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the project and > eventually receive a higher traction. But no, "one man one vote" and full > equality doesn't work out. (i.e. if a modules primary maintainer vetos a > change I have to mind that [which doesn't mean I have to agree in the > end]) Primary maintainers doing only maintenance but not having actually designed/implemented an extension fits in this description. That sounds pretty awkward to me, for anything landing in the core. Landed in the core? Dictartorship goes away. >>Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal >>changes >>are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC >>breaks >>that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy >>to >>say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change >>and >>community people are making their opinion count. > > There are no plans (and enough people who'd veto such plans) to close > the mailing list. Everybody might state their opinion and we are happy to > receive (constructive) feedback and ideas here. And yes, this can be a bit > painful due to different forms of "trolling" but leads to better results > respecting > more opinions than a yes/no vote. Never worked before and it will suddenly work? I am open to know how one can make it works. Unless you mean to go back to individual deciding everything for a given area or ext. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On September 22, 2014 4:21:29 PM CEST, Rafael Kassner wrote: >IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a >company's >product, or, in another words, "you use what we built and shut up", >because >only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only >votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are >choosing some particular option on a RFC, but they are making their >opinion >count, and I think this kind of "democracy power" shouldn't be voided. Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by people who don't want to maintain it themselves? Probably even due to votes by people about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base. And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model. The democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the project and eventually receive a higher traction. But no, "one man one vote" and full equality doesn't work out. (i.e. if a modules primary maintainer vetos a change I have to mind that [which doesn't mean I have to agree in the end]) >Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal >changes >are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC >breaks >that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy >to >say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change >and >community people are making their opinion count. There are no plans (and enough people who'd veto such plans) to close the mailing list. Everybody might state their opinion and we are happy to receive (constructive) feedback and ideas here. And yes, this can be a bit painful due to different forms of "trolling" but leads to better results respecting more opinions than a yes/no vote. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a company's product, or, in another words, "you use what we built and shut up", because only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are choosing some particular option on a RFC, but they are making their opinion count, and I think this kind of "democracy power" shouldn't be voided. Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal changes are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC breaks that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy to say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change and community people are making their opinion count. On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Sep 22, 2014 3:29 PM, "Derick Rethans" wrote: > > > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > > > > > > > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if > > > >>> it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not > > > >>> contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything > > > >>> else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs? > > > >>> > > > >>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I > > > >>> think doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other > > > >>> contributors. However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank > > > >>> people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > > >> > > > >> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the > > > >> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. > > > > > > > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers > > > > might be affected and they should have a right to chime in. > > > > > > That would be quite unfair, not just because of BC breaks and/or > > > userland developers' votes (there aren't many, afaik). > > > Practically every language change would be decided by only a handful > > > of people, while it should be important that many votes are gathered > > > for important decisions. > > > > There is a big difference between votes, and voices. Voices should > > definitely be listened too. > > We agree on listening. Only not on how we listen. > > > Derick > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 22, 2014 3:29 PM, "Derick Rethans" wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote: > > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > > > > > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > > >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > >> > > >>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if > > >>> it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not > > >>> contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything > > >>> else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs? > > >>> > > >>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I > > >>> think doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other > > >>> contributors. However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank > > >>> people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > >> > > >> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the > > >> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. > > > > > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers > > > might be affected and they should have a right to chime in. > > > > That would be quite unfair, not just because of BC breaks and/or > > userland developers' votes (there aren't many, afaik). > > Practically every language change would be decided by only a handful > > of people, while it should be important that many votes are gathered > > for important decisions. > > There is a big difference between votes, and voices. Voices should > definitely be listened too. We agree on listening. Only not on how we listen. > Derick > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > > > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > >> > >>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if > >>> it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not > >>> contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything > >>> else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs? > >>> > >>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I > >>> think doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other > >>> contributors. However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank > >>> people.php.net page) voting irks me. > >> > >> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the > >> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. > > > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers > > might be affected and they should have a right to chime in. > > That would be quite unfair, not just because of BC breaks and/or > userland developers' votes (there aren't many, afaik). > Practically every language change would be decided by only a handful > of people, while it should be important that many votes are gathered > for important decisions. There is a big difference between votes, and voices. Voices should definitely be listened too. Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > > >> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it > >> is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to > >> the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the > >> ability to vote on RFCs? > >> > >> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think > >> doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. > >> However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) > >> voting irks me. > > > > I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the > > section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers > might be affected and they should have a right to chime in. Breaking BC should never happen anyway. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: >> >>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it >>> is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to >>> the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the >>> ability to vote on RFCs? >>> >>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think >>> doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. >>> However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) >>> voting irks me. >> >> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the >> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers might be > affected and they should have a right to chime in. That would be quite unfair, not just because of BC breaks and/or userland developers' votes (there aren't many, afaik). Practically every language change would be decided by only a handful of people, while it should be important that many votes are gathered for important decisions. Cheers, Andrey. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > >> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it >> is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to >> the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the >> ability to vote on RFCs? >> >> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think >> doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. >> However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) >> voting irks me. > > I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the > section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers might be affected and they should have a right to chime in. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > On Sat, 2014-09-20 at 03:16 +0100, Leigh wrote: > > > > I think everyone with the ability to vote should have to communicate > > their reasons behind their yes/no publicly on this mailing list for > > it to be valid. If you cannot describe in your own words why a > > proposal should or should not be accepted, why should your opinion > > be valid? > > > That's one of the reasons why I consider voting as default way wrong. > It might be a way to solve ties if a consensus can't be reached. That's another good point, that I stand behind. I think f.e. the integer semantics RFC was contentious enough to warrant further discussion and see what could make other people to say "yes" as well. The current RFC process does not state anything about reflecting comments on the ML to have to be addressed before the RFC can even be put to vote. And I think, valid (technical) objects should be required to be addressed. > It is unclear what a "no" means. Might be a related to the patch the > design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end > a vote creates "losers" with little feedback. > > But well, I'm saying this from day one of the voting. Yes. I am in that camp too. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote: > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it > is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to > the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the > ability to vote on RFCs? > > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think > doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. > However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) > voting irks me. I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20/09/14 12:51, Rowan Collins wrote: > On 20/09/2014 10:17, Lester Caine wrote: >> That most of my spare time is still being taken up >> living with the consequences of changes in PHP is water under the bridge >> now [...] PLEASE can we get >> back to a level playing field and use PHP7 as a base to get something >> stable and fully compatible with modern requirements. Only put stuff in >> PHP5 now that is NEEDED so we can finally catch up! > > Please refrain from turning every conversation into an excuse to jump on > your soapbox about the direction PHP is going. Your general points have > surely been raised and debated many times over by now, and there is no > language change discussed in this thread for you to make specific points > for or against. > > I have no right - and no desire - to rob you of your voice, but am sure > your energy could be better directed to more specific goals. Given that the bulk of users ARE still stuck with PHP5.2 or 5.3, and the BULK of the movement in usages is from 5.2 to 5.4, I would say that THIS is a much bigger vote for maintaining some stability. It is also a big indicator that who actually votes on the RFC's is somewhat academic! There is not a high demand for much of the tinkering going on, and I see little pressure in the field to take them up. Any heavily used framework has to maintain compatibility with PHP5.3 currently. ( And who is using PHP5.7 live? ) My own current roadmap is to get everything over to PHP5.4 and then look at where the core is by which time I hope my next step will be to PHP7 skipping anything being discussed for 5.x now anyway. http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/pl-php/5 http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/5/all -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20 September 2014 15:49, Leigh wrote: > On 20 September 2014 15:37, Johannes Schlüter > wrote: > > > > It is unclear what a "no" means. Might be a related to the patch the > > design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end a > > vote creates "losers" with little feedback. > > > > But well, I'm saying this from day one of the voting. > > > > johannes > > > > This is my opinion exactly > > Some people who vote no are involved in the internals discussion, and > that's great. But some people vote no without a word. How do we know > they even understand the impact of their vote? Without their feedback > how can the proposal be improved? > > Even if they say "I'm voting no because of all of the reasons stated > by Person X", that's enough to know that more than one person doesn't > like a specific aspect, and makes it a higher priority for > improvement. > > This is exactly the case for the “Yes” voters too. I’d be for having some avenue (um... internals, or… is that the perfect place?) for giving two cents [voluntarily] about a voter’s decision or indeed lack thereof. Ideally, the atmosphere would be open *and inviting* (the latter appears to be a problem here) where a pitchfork-weilding mob won’t descend on anyone who happened to make a vote, one way or the other. In the past we’ve had people editing wiki articles (not RFCs) with their own thoughts as attributed annotations. This has obvious issues, but it would be a) in writing, and b) directly associated with the RFC, and c) *not* a conversation. > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20 September 2014 15:37, Johannes Schlüter wrote: > > It is unclear what a "no" means. Might be a related to the patch the > design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end a > vote creates "losers" with little feedback. > > But well, I'm saying this from day one of the voting. > > johannes > This is my opinion exactly Some people who vote no are involved in the internals discussion, and that's great. But some people vote no without a word. How do we know they even understand the impact of their vote? Without their feedback how can the proposal be improved? Even if they say "I'm voting no because of all of the reasons stated by Person X", that's enough to know that more than one person doesn't like a specific aspect, and makes it a higher priority for improvement. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sat, 2014-09-20 at 03:16 +0100, Leigh wrote: > > I think everyone with the ability to vote should have to communicate > their reasons behind their yes/no publicly on this mailing list for it > to be valid. If you cannot describe in your own words why a proposal > should or should not be accepted, why should your opinion be valid? > That's one of the reasons why I consider voting as default way wrong. It might be a way to solve ties if a consensus can't be reached. It is unclear what a "no" means. Might be a related to the patch the design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end a vote creates "losers" with little feedback. But well, I'm saying this from day one of the voting. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> On 20 Sep 2014, at 13:54, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: > > Afair the voting rfc required previous contribution not just an existing > php.net account, but as I mentioned there are a bunch of ways to contribute > other than having commits in one of the repos so there is no easy way to > check that programatically. > > Ps: sorry for the typos, sending from my phone. Perhaps we could make the system only allow people with karma to vote, but add an additional flag we can set on karmaless accounts to say they can vote, for the limited number of accounts for which this is necessary? I think this could work. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
2014.09.20. 14:14 ezt írta ("Pierre Joye" ):
>
> On Sep 20, 2014 7:07 PM, "Andrea Faulds" wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye wrote:
> > >
> > > I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was
> one
> > > of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC.
> >
> > I should've made clear I'm not opposed to community reps voting either.
> People who have made enough contributions to earn either karma or
community
> rep status should be allowed to vote. My problem is people with neither.
>
> For example?
I personally have seen a couple of cases where we (mostly Rasmus) approves
outstanding php.net accounts but there are no follow up, so for example the
proposed pecl package is not created nor any karma is granted.
For the record: currently it is possible for a pecl ext developer to not
have php.net account (pecl.php.net has its own user db and some exts aren't
hosted on our svn/git infrastructure) which means that they won't have
voting karma by default.
I think it would make sense to review and cross-check the accounts and
maybe remove those which were never used.
We also have to keep in mind, that there could be users without any karma,
but other contributions like sorting out bugs or event/notes moderation,
etc.
Afair the voting rfc required previous contribution not just an existing
php.net account, but as I mentioned there are a bunch of ways to contribute
other than having commits in one of the repos so there is no easy way to
check that programatically.
Ps: sorry for the typos, sending from my phone.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 20, 2014 7:07 PM, "Andrea Faulds" wrote: > > > > On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye wrote: > > > > I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was one > > of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC. > > I should've made clear I'm not opposed to community reps voting either. People who have made enough contributions to earn either karma or community rep status should be allowed to vote. My problem is people with neither. For example?
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye wrote: > > I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was one > of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC. I should've made clear I'm not opposed to community reps voting either. People who have made enough contributions to earn either karma or community rep status should be allowed to vote. My problem is people with neither. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20/09/2014 10:17, Lester Caine wrote: That most of my spare time is still being taken up living with the consequences of changes in PHP is water under the bridge now [...] PLEASE can we get back to a level playing field and use PHP7 as a base to get something stable and fully compatible with modern requirements. Only put stuff in PHP5 now that is NEEDED so we can finally catch up! Please refrain from turning every conversation into an excuse to jump on your soapbox about the direction PHP is going. Your general points have surely been raised and debated many times over by now, and there is no language change discussed in this thread for you to make specific points for or against. I have no right - and no desire - to rob you of your voice, but am sure your energy could be better directed to more specific goals. -- Rowan Collins [IMSoP] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20/09/14 02:29, Andrea Faulds wrote: > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc and > peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, people > with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > Thoughts? OK ... I am someone sitting directly in that bucket ... Does it irritate that I can't vote ... yes ... but while others who can agree with my views I am happy with the status quo. Yes I would like to contribute more directly, but there are only so many hours in the day. That most of my spare time is still being taken up living with the consequences of changes in PHP is water under the bridge now! My own contributions are in areas that help people USING PHP ... with Firebird and other tools and I will continue to support that activity. I could make a case for those contributions being accepted to give me Kamma, as the rules already permit, but to be honest I'd rather NOT have third parties like the framework teams or FIG adding more of their own demands into the core? Just coping with e_strict is enough at the moment without adding all the PSR- changes :( Just how much of the 'must have' features will ACTUALLY make PHP more productive? PLEASE can we get back to a level playing field and use PHP7 as a base to get something stable and fully compatible with modern requirements. Only put stuff in PHP5 now that is NEEDED so we can finally catch up! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
> On Sep 19, 2014, at 18:29, Andrea Faulds wrote: > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, Yes, you are. > but I wonder if it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not > contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to > have the ability to vote on RFCs? Yes, it is. -Sara -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
Hi, On Sep 20, 2014 8:29 AM, "Andrea Faulds" wrote: > > Hi! > > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs? > > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > Thoughts? I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was one of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC. Thinking that we do not care what symfony, composer, zend framework, lavahel (if they like to), drupal lead developers think about what we plan to do then we will go back to a very dark time. We may improve how it is done. But killing communities voices is a very bad idea. It is also important to keep in mind the RFCs, blocking ppl were not them. Or ppl having strong opinions for one way or another, me or other, were not part of these communities voices. So I do not think the impact of their votes is that large anyway. Cheers, Pierre
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Sep 19, 2014, at 21:32, Kris Craig wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: >> 2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds : >>> Hi! >>> >>> Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is >> really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the >> documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to >> vote on RFCs? >>> >>> I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc >> and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, >> people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks >> me. >>> >>> Thoughts? >> >> I'm with you on this one, huge +1 for the separation on who can vote >> and changing the voting rfc. >> >> >> -- >> regards, >> >> Kalle Sommer Nielsen >> ka...@php.net >> >> -- >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> >> > The one problem with this is it doesn't take into account those who > contribute to PHP in other ways, such as administering tests, contributing > RFCs, etc. I'm not necessarily against this, but if you want to garner > wide enough support, you might want to make the language a little more > inclusive. > > Just my two cents. > > --Kris I would also argue that contributions are not always a measure of the value of a person’s opinion. I haven’t made what would be considered “significant” contributions to PHP itself in a few years now, but I remain a very active user of the language, and I keep an eye on where it’s going. When I vote on language features, I’m casting that vote as someone who 1) has a clear set of reasons in mind for why a feature would or wouldn’t be useful, and 2) is always looking for a reason to be able to devote my time again. I agree that voting should be kept out of the hands of people who’ve never made any effort to show they give a darn about the language and its future. But I would say, be careful about equating “small" contributions with “unimportant”, “uninteresting”, or “nonexistent" ones. As Kris pointed out, the ways in which someone contributes aren’t always obvious. Leigh speaks of people who contribute “one translation a year” - that’s still more than many ever have done or ever will do. There are many who simply don’t have the time to take away from their lives to do more, but remain invested in the language and its community. That being said, I am absolutely in favor of excluding people who don’t make at least *some* effort. I’m strongly +1 for people explaining their reasons for a vote, or even doing so much as saying “I’d prefer not to explain my reasons”. I’m even more strongly +1 for people having to at least shown some level of interest before being allowed to influence PHP’s future. I would just like to be sure that the bar is not set so high that it excludes opinions from people whose only failing is not being seen by the community. Full disclosure: This is absolutely a self-serving opinion. All of my significant contributions are years old (dating back to 5.3), I’ve been all but invisible in the internals community since, and I am certainly someone who has limited time to spend on contributing to the language. But I like to think my thoughts are still worth something. If the requirement for that is that I explain why I voted how I did on an RFC, I’m glad - even eager - to do so. If the requirement for that is that I contribute at least one nontrivial documentation edit or source code commit per month, or something similar, I think the point has been missed. -- Gwynne Raskind -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
Hi Kris 2014-09-20 4:32 GMT+02:00 Kris Craig : > The one problem with this is it doesn't take into account those who > contribute to PHP in other ways, such as administering tests, contributing > RFCs, etc. I'm not necessarily against this, but if you want to garner wide > enough support, you might want to make the language a little more inclusive. Those who is an active contributor of the project should have the voting rights, take Dan Brown, who does not contribute to php-src, but is one of the main guys, if not THE guy behind the mirrors communication and network infrastructure. People like that who is a contributor should ofcourse be allowed, but people who despite they "represent" a project written in PHP and does not take a part of the actual development of PHP or maintenance of PHP.net and related services, e.g. framework authors should not imo. -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote: > 2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds : > > Hi! > > > > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is > really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the > documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to > vote on RFCs? > > > > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc > and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, > people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks > me. > > > > Thoughts? > > I'm with you on this one, huge +1 for the separation on who can vote > and changing the voting rfc. > > > -- > regards, > > Kalle Sommer Nielsen > ka...@php.net > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > The one problem with this is it doesn't take into account those who contribute to PHP in other ways, such as administering tests, contributing RFCs, etc. I'm not necessarily against this, but if you want to garner wide enough support, you might want to make the language a little more inclusive. Just my two cents. --Kris
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds : > Hi! > > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is > really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the > documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to > vote on RFCs? > > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc and > peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, people > with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > Thoughts? I'm with you on this one, huge +1 for the separation on who can vote and changing the voting rfc. -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
On 20 September 2014 02:29, Andrea Faulds wrote: > Hi! > > Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is > really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the > documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to > vote on RFCs? > > I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc and > peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, people > with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks me. > > Thoughts? > -- > Andrea Faulds > http://ajf.me/ > Hey Andrea, I think you know my personal opinion here. I want the people who are in a position to control the state of the language to be people who actively contribute to the language. Anyone who actively works towards a better PHP (regardless of whether their proposals are accepted or rejected) should be able to have an opinion on what is accepted or not. People who contribute one translation a year, a bug report once, a pecl extension 10 years ago and _nothing_ since then,... I don't understand why these people get to vote on the future of the language that the rest of us "investors" use every day. I think everyone with the ability to vote should have to communicate their reasons behind their yes/no publicly on this mailing list for it to be valid. If you cannot describe in your own words why a proposal should or should not be accepted, why should your opinion be valid? Interest in the language should be recent and relevant. It's difficult to police "legacy contributors", but if they are not interested enough to type a few lines. the answer is clear. Say no to non-contributors. Cheers, Leigh. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
