[lace] translations

[Jane O'Connor]

Understanding lace terms in another language is certainly frustrating. I have a 
German SIL to whom I sent a page of terms to decipher. Her return page was 
funny once I got over the disappointment of not seeing what I thought I'd be 
getting. She did help with about 3-4 words and with the help of the 
International Lace Dictionary, I managed to proceed. I do not know if that book 
is still in print but if you ever get a chance to buy it, it certainly is well 
worth to have if you know you will be buying patterns from other country 
designers.
   
  Jane O'Connor
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  New Lenox, IL 
  Every morning is the beginning of a new error.

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[lace] Translations

[Jean Nathan]

I have basic language traslation programs (free with computer magazines 
several years ago) on my computer for French, Spanish, Italian, German and 
Dutch. I've fed the words from the International Dictionary of Lace into 
each of them. When I want to know what a page of book is about, I use a text 
reader through my scanner to "read" the page and then apply the relevant 
translation program to the text. Although it obviously doesn't actually 
tranlate the page from one language into another very accurately, because 
the lace terms are in the dictionary (often replacing another meaning of the 
word), it gives make a good enough job to be able to see what the page is 
about and get the relevant facts from it.


The main advantage is that, having spent the time once set up the 
dictionaries, it's very much quicker than searching the International 
Dictionay of Lace for each word.


Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK 


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[lace] Translations

[Miriam]

I was following this thread for a few days before I decided to chime in.

I have graduated from usinversity as translator in three languages. 
One of our main subjects was to learn the terminology of different 
professions , like technical, medical, legal etc. Most of the 
terminology was polistical but we very quickly learned that in each 
language words meant different things.


Same in lacemaking. When I got my very first lace book it was a 
German book from Topp. I had no idea what I was meant to do although 
German is my "mother's tongue". It just didn't fit into anything I 
knew in Hebrew which is  the language I was brought up to use daily.
That is why a translator has also to have some knowledge not only in 
the simple meaning of the word but also how it is used in a special context.


When I was explaining knitting patterns I always found it rather 
starnge that a "stitch" wether in English or German meant an "eye" in 
Hebrew. There are many similar examples but then I would have to add 
a chapter to the international lace dictionary.


Miriam
in Arad, Israel

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[lace] translations

[Sue]

A lovely friend sent me a lace book for my birthday which is in french, so I
have been busy translating it, some words have been fine, but a few are not so
clear, so would someone remind me please of the place many of you added words
in various languages, like half stitch, whole stitch, pin or whatever.   I
might be able to change one or two to improve my understanding, before I try
something.   there are several lovely stoles in there and although I would
never have he need to wear one, I am tempted to convert them down a bit and
make a scarf of one of the patterns.  Hmmm, my list grows longer quicker than
I make my lace, LOL.

Sue T
Dorset UK
www.hurwitzend.co.uk

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[lace] Translations

[Nicole Gauthier]

Dear Lacemakers,
Recently, Jeri and other lacemakers wrote about lace books not being 
translated in english. I think some of you will be happy to learn that 
one of our friends on Arachne, Magda who has written a dissertation on 
Mechlin Lace, Lace Lappets from the 18th Century while doing her 
teacher's course in the Kantcentrum in Bruges, has done an english 
translation of her book. The book is very informative on the subject 
and the pictures and enlargements are beautiful. Not much has been 
written on that lace and it is a good opportunity to learn more. Magda 
can certainly give you the information on how to get her book.

Nicole Gauthier in Kirkland, Qc
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[lace] translations

[Tess1929]

Thanks to everyone who wrote offering to help and to all those who sent me 
the translations.   I now have a lovely long list of translators in case the 
Professor asks me again.   Isn't Arachne marvellous!   One has only to ask a 
question and the answer is returned almost immediately.

The only title left to decipher is in Thai: Ru'ang tham rai fai, Phranakhon 
Anyone?

Thanks again to all.

Tess([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [lace] translations

[clayblackwell]

I totally agree that that the International Lace Dictionary is absolutely the 
most useful thing you can have...  even in the company of people who have 
studied - or been brought up with with a language as their native language!!  
When trying to translate, it takes the dictionary, the native, the translator, 
AND the lacemaker (with some knowledge of the lace requirements...) to decipher 
the code.  In the absence of the other useful "parts", the Dictionary is 
sometimes sufficient.  I consider my Dictionary one of my most useful tools.

But working on translations is a wonderful way to bridge cultural gaps!!  We 
were very fond of our German neighbors by the time they moved on to better 
opportunities!!  

Clay

--
Clay Blackwell 
Lynchburg, VA USA 


-- Original message -- 
From: "Jane O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> Understanding lace terms in another language is certainly frustrating. I have 
> a 
> German SIL to whom I sent a page of terms to decipher. Her return page was 
> funny 
> once I got over the disappointment of not seeing what I thought I'd be 
> getting. 
> She did help with about 3-4 words and with the help of the International Lace 
> Dictionary, I managed to proceed. I do not know if that book is still in 
> print 
> but if you ever get a chance to buy it, it certainly is well worth to have if 
> you know you will be buying patterns from other country designers. 
> 
> Jane O'Connor 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> New Lenox, IL 
> Every morning is the beginning of a new error. 
> 
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> To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: 
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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[lace] Lace translations

[Jean Leader]

Dear all,

Some of you will be aware of the OIDFA Translator which my husband, David, has 
been developing. This focusses on about 40 (currently) core lacemaking terms 
(primarily bobbin lace) and attempts to solicit the vocabulary from native 
speakers of different languages. Currently 15 languages are represented, 
although with varying degrees of completeness. The URL is 
http://www.oidfa.com/translate.html .

David has asked me to post the following about the latest update, which is 
Russian. Now we appreciate that the members on this list are mainly from the 
US, Great Britain, and other English-speaking countries, but - especially in 
the US - there are always members for whom English is not their mother tongue. 

Russian is a particular problem in that there is a continuing tradition of 
lacemaking there, but few Russian lacemakers speak English. A set of Russian 
terms would therefore be particularly useful, but correspondingly difficult to 
obtain. The translations I have so far are via a French intermediary! I have 
tried to use pictures to clarify terms for non-English or non-French speakers 
(the two languages of OIDFA), but sometimes it is difficult to select a picture 
that is unequivocal. There is also the problem that different types of lace 
techniques have different vocabularies, and that different languages may 
express things in different ways and lack nouns used in other languages.

So I suspect that there are some problems with a few of the Russian terms, and 
I wonder if there are any native speakers on this list who are able to help 
out. These are the problems:

1. In English there is a general name to refer to things like half-stich, cloth 
stitch, cloth-stich-and-twist, namely 'stitch'. Although Google translate 
suggests several words for stitch, it is not clear which, if any correspond to 
this idea. Unfortunately the image I have is of a particular stitch which 
confused the Russian translator (suggestions for something better appreciated). 
My question then is whether such a word exists in Russian. For example, how 
would one translate the following sentence?

"Which stitch do I use next, cloth stitch or half stitch?"
Is there a general term for the stitch which is the second word in the 
sentence, or would this be translated in Russian without a noun? e.g. as in:
"What do I do next, a cloth stich or a half stitch?"

2. Nouns for the concepts of 'head-side' and 'foot-side' may or may not exist 
in different languages. I am suspicious that the translator has tried to 
translate the components of the English terms, rather than the concepts they 
are used for.

3. Likewise for passive v. weaver/worker.

Let me emphasise that I am most grateful to the translators for providing 
translations for the grunge work of providing the bulk of terms, but that 
nobody is perfect and the essence of mounting this on the web is that 
corrections can be made and continue to be made at no publishing cost.

If I waited until the work was perfect I'd wait forever. But if anyone can help 
improve it in the meantime I'd really appreciate it.

David

P.S. The Slovenian is still in progress and I am sure will be complete by the 
next OIDFA Congress. The Greek, Polish and Finnish have only been checked by a 
couple of people, so any further scrutiny would be especially welcome. Other 
languages, too, but mainstream European languages are perhaps not the priority.

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Re: [lace] translations

[Agnes Boddington]

Hi Sue
I found the list on my PC and will send it to you personally, hope it helps.
Could you let us know the title of the book? I have several French ones, but 
would be insterested in the stoles you mentioned in your mail.
Agnes Boddington - Elloughton -cold UK where husband has decided to decorate 
the lounge and house is upside-down.


A lovely friend sent me a lace book for my birthday which is in french, so 
I
have been busy translating it, some words have been fine, but a few are 
not so
clear, so would someone remind me please of the place many of you added 
words

in various languages, like half stitch, whole stitch, pin or whatever.
Sue T
Dorset UK
www.hurwitzend.co.uk


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Re: [lace] translations

[Nancy Neff]

Hi Sue,
 
In my experience an excellent source of translations is OIDFA's
compendium of translations of lace-related words, "International Lace
Dictionary". I don't see it for sale on their website any more, but one of the
lace vendors may still have copies.
 
Nancy
Connecticut, USA
>
>...clear, so would someone remind me please
of the place many of you added words
>in various languages, like half stitch,
whole stitch, pin or whatever.  I
>Sue T
>Dorset UK
>www.hurwitzend.co.uk

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[lace] translations needed

[Tess1929]

The Professor is trying to make translations of the titles of books and
articles written in other languages into English.   Can anyone help?

Russian: Otviety ne obyknovennye voprosy diete
Italian:   I Singolari e Nuovi Disegni (and is the spelling correct?)
Spanish: Catálogo de la Exposición de Lencería y Encajes Españoles
Thai: Ru'ang tham rai fai, Phranakhon : Krasuang Kasettrathikan

I have asked Ilske to help with the German, but there are a lot of them and
she may not have time.   Is there anyone out there who can help with German if
I need her?

Thanks to any and all.

Tess ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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[lace] translations finished!

[Tess1929]

The Professor, in his terse fashion, writes, "Many thanks to you and the 
Arachnids!" The exclamation point represents the enthusiasm with which he 
received 
my email with all the translations made.   

Thanks so much to all who made so much effort to get these titles translated. 
  Can you imagine any other place where one has access not only to lacemakers 
around the world, but to so many languages and so many people willing to help 
out.   I never thought I would be able to find Thai!   But there it is, along 
with German, French, Russian, Greek, Dutch, Hungarian, Italian, and Spanish. 

Thanks again to you all.

Tess ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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[lace] translations & Honiton video

[hottleco]

Hello All!  Since I recently purchased some lace texts in German, the new OIDFA 
translation service got a workout yesterday.  Terrific--many thanks to all who 
helped!  May I ask--there are 44 English to German translations & 51 German to 
English translations.  Does this mean that there are duplicate words with the 
same meaning or does it mean that there are 7 more words that could easily be 
added to the English side?  In addition to the OIDFA translator, there is a  
drop-dead gorgeous lace top on view--WOW!  The various online translation 
services helped me out as well for basic text, although crack couples for 
Risspaare (passives) made me chuckle.  Are we making lace or doing drugs?!?  
LOL   So perhaps this is a good time to thank Martina Wolter-Kampmann for being 
proactive in publishing a translation of her book on Invisible starts & 
finishes--German & English are on either side of the diagrams on the same page. 
 Thanks also to Adele for posting the link to the Honiton vid!
 eo.  When I sent it to a friend, she replied that she didn't think of Prince 
Charles as cute but changed her mind after seeing him in the christening gown!  
Wishing everyone a lacy weekend.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, PA USA 
  

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[lace] translations German-English

[Gon Homburg]

Jeri Ames wrote:
Lace Ladies in Germany - How can we impress upon you that we appreciate 
your
laces and lace research very much and want to read about them?  Because 
the
books are not in English, it is even difficult to review the books.

I do understand the problem, but the problem is naturally also the 
other way around. Not all German, French and Dutch people do read 
English and almost no English book has a translation in German, French 
or another language in it.
The latest books of the Deutsch Klöppelverband as well as the latest 
ones of the LOKK (Dutch) have English translations in it.
There is of course always a way to read or understand lace books. One 
of my first lace books was the book of Salle Johanson in Swedish. My 
Swedish isn't that well that I could read a lace book, but the diagrams 
were excellent so I could learn the Swedish terms from the diagrams. 
And for the rest I used an dictionary. The same was with the first book 
of Eva-Liisa Kortelathi, which was only in Finnish.  With help of a 
dictionary and a finnish collegue I could make the laces. Sp when you 
really want to read a book about a subject you are interested in, use a 
good dictionary and the now available lacedictionary to help you 
translate the specific lace terms. On the internet there are also 
translation machines, which can help you.

Succes in the lacebooks in other parts of the world in other languages.
Gon Homburg
from a sunny Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
Ps. The h in Withof is to be pronounced inDutch.
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[lace] Translations - was ornament help

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Clay

So the bottom line was that even for Germans, the descriptions in 
books which are written in German do not necessarily make a lot of 
sense!  It would seem that people in Germany, who learn to make lace, 
learn it first from a "live person" who teaches them the vocabulary, 
and from there, they are able to progress with books.


It's not only German lacemakers who have their own lace languages, the 
English do too.  Just think about the differences between Devon/Honiton 
lace speak and Midlands/Bucks/Beds lace speak.

Downrights or passives
Coarse thread or gimp
Leadworks or tallies or leaves or wheatears
Leaders or workers or runners
Not to mention winkie pins or the vexed question of rose-ground, 
virgin-ground, or honeycomb.


Brenda in Allhallows, Kent
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html

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Re: [lace] translations & Honiton video

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Susan!

I am sure I am not the most knowledgeable person to answer your question, but I 
have had numerous years experience with the same question!

What I have learned, essentially, is that the German language has far fewer 
words, but each word can mean many things, depending on the context!  Within 
the German-speaking world, unless you have been exposed to lacemaking and have 
learned the German terms which have beed adopted  to describe lacemaking, even 
if you are a native German, you can read a German lacemaking book and not have 
a clue what it means!

For those of us who are English-speaking, this is eye-opening!  But there are 
other languages that share the same nuances, and so this is why it is so 
difficult to go to the on-line translation programs and get anything meaningful 
from the translation.

Lots of luck!  The better approach may be to ask if anyone on the list has (or 
knows of) a translation for the book you have acquired.

Clay



Sent from my iPad

On Oct 25, 2013, at 6:44 PM,  wrote:

> Hello All!  Since I recently purchased some lace texts in German, the new 
> OIDFA translation service got a workout yesterday.  Terrific--many thanks to 
> all who helped!  May I ask--there are 44 English to German translations & 51 
> German to English translations.  Does this mean that there are duplicate 
> words with the same meaning or does it mean that there are 7 more words that 
> could easily be added to the English side?  In addition to the OIDFA 
> translator, there is a  drop-dead gorgeous lace top on view--WOW!  The 
> various online translation services helped me out as well for basic text, 
> although crack couples for Risspaare (passives) made me chuckle.  Are we 
> making lace or doing drugs?!?  LOL   So perhaps this is a good time to thank 
> Martina Wolter-Kampmann for being proactive in publishing a translation of 
> her book on Invisible starts & finishes--German & English are on either side 
> of the diagrams on the same page.  Thanks also to Adele for posting the link 
> to the Honiton v!
 id!
> eo.  When I sent it to a friend, she replied that she didn't think of Prince 
> Charles as cute but changed her mind after seeing him in the christening 
> gown!  Wishing everyone a lacy weekend.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, PA 
> USA   
> 
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> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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[lace] Translations of lace books

[AGlez]

I am a translator too and have translated two lace books into Spanish.
After that, the editor did not ask for more translations, because not many
Spanish lacemakers bought these books and it was a big expense for them.
Actually, it is an immense work to translate a lace book because it is, in
fact, a technical translation. Not anyone can translate a lace text. The
translator has to know how to make lace, apart from speaking or reading
languages. And this is not easy to find.

You can verify this by using Google translator. It is prepared to make a
translation of a simple and everyday text, but not at all a text about
instructions on how to make a certain stitch or technique... Not even a non
lacemaker could understand this in his/her own language!

So, although it is sad that we cannot get all the books that exist in our
own language, a good idea for us is to try and learn a bit of the languages
in which the books are written. At least the important words, to know what
the texts are about. English is a must, of course. And German too. ...
Well, we should have learnt all these languages when young!


Antje González
ww.vueltaycruz.es
https://www.etsy.com/shop/TwistAndCross

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[lace] Translations of Lace Books

[Janice Blair]

Anje wrote:



I have a number of books in German and my German is non-existent
so I looked the words up in other books that were already translated, or
online, printed what I needed onto paper and added it to the book.  It
certainly helps to have the English chapter titles when trying to find what I
am looking for.  Most pattern books, as previously stated, have good technical
diagrams so an experienced lacemaker should have no trouble following the
directions.  I appreciate it when an author has more than one language on the
page.  It does help, and it probably helps selling more of their books
overseas.

Janice
 
Janice Blair
Crystal Lake, 50 miles northwest of Chicago,
Illinois, USA where we still have at least 3 foot of snow outside the window.
 Thankfully the roads are kept pretty clear.  Hoping Spring is around the
corner, I'm fed up with the white stuff.
www.jblace.com
http://www.lacemakersofillinois.org

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Re: [lace] translations German-English

[Jeriames]

In a message dated 9/5/04 1:27:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> I do understand the problem, but the problem is naturally also the
> other way around. Not all German, French and Dutch people do read
> English and almost no English book has a translation in German, French
> or another language in it.
> The latest books of the Deutsch Klöppelverband as well as the latest
> ones of the LOKK (Dutch) have English translations in it.
>
Dear Lacemakers,

Yes!!!  And I purchased two books from LOKK in Prague.  Perhaps I should have
mentioned my appreciation.

The problem is that most of the books I listed from Deutsch Kloppelverband
are more "story" and "history" than patterns.  A better understanding of
Chantilly, metal laces, etc. would be beneficial to more lacemakers who are
interested in broadening their knowledge.  It is not lost on me that the
authors have
done a huge amount of research.  Using a dictionary to decipher text is a huge
task for someone with many books - it is only a practical use of time to
decipher captions under photographs.

It seems to me that the number of English-speaking lacemakers is proving to
be quite large and represents nations in Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and
North America.  It is the language of Arachne, and one of the two languages of
OIDFA.  From correspondence on Arachne, we know people are buying books that
must travel long distances to reach them.  Perhaps it is not known that one of
the largest immigrant groups in the U.S. in the last 200 years, came from
Germany?  That means there are a lot of assimilated persons of German descent
that
now cannot understand the German language, but would be interested in the
books I referenced.

In eastern Europe, many of the young people are learning English, because it
is the international language most-used in business.  There would be much less
confusion among lacemakers if we could all master at least a dozen languages,
but the possibility of this is practically nil.  The more we can understand
each other, the more helpful we can be to each other.  This is an important
component in the process of making lacemaking and the lace story interesting
to
young people.

Recently, I have been able to obtain a Latin translation from a person on
this list.  It is one I have needed for a long time.  It appears on a very
large
steel engraving depicting a Reni (16th C. artist) painting.  The reason I
wanted it?  The steel engraving is the central motif of a large 3-piece set of
needlelace (Point de Venise) panels made to surround a door.  You can imagine
my
joy!

Regards,

Jeri Ames in Maine, USA
Lace & Embroidery Resource Center

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Re: [lace] Translations of lace books

[Achim Siebert]

> Well, we should have learnt all these languages when young!

So true - I've been trying to learn some Spanish for some months now, and being 
over 50 it's much harder than when I was learning English as a teen/twen.

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[lace] Translations of books and websites

[Gon Homburg]

Dear Arachnes,

Every now and then I read it on Arachnes, why does the Europeans not think of
us, Americans or English speaking persons. Not every European lace
organization is translating their books in English or publish only an
translation and you have to buy the original book as well for the pictures and
patterns.
Now I have a question. I am changing my website www.kloskant.com
 to be suitable also for tablets and smartphones. In
my old website almost every page was translated in English. This is a lot of
work and I wonder if I should do that again, because it has become easier to
have it translated by google than it was when I started the website.
So my question is: should I translate every page in English or are there pages
you are not interested in, such as the information about the lessons, the lace
groups and the calendar.
Or are there pages of which you say, these should really be translated.
My next question but this is only to myself, why should I translate them only
in English and not also in French and Spanish. Both languages which I am not
good at. So I won’t do that, because that would cause too much trouble for
me. But on the other hand it is a realistic question, because many elderly
people in France or Spain don’t read English or Dutch.

Gon Homburg from a sunny Amsterdam, The Netherlands

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[lace] Translations of books and websites

[Janice Blair]

Dear Gon,I appreciate your website being translated into English.  I have
enjoyed your series of Wednesday laces and just spent a pleasant time looking
at the rest of your website on this rainy afternoon in California.  I do not
have an iPad but hope that you will keep your website with the English
translation. If you decide otherwise, please make sure that the links to each
page are in English as my Dutch is non-existent.  Thanks for all you do for
lace.Janice Janice Blair
Murrieta, CA, 60 miles north of San Diego where we have had the first rain for
ages.  Steady and all day.
www.jblace.com
www.lacemakersofillinois.org

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Re: [lace] Translations of books and websites

[Achim Siebert]

If I were to make a website about lace, I’d only do it in English (and not even 
bother about providing in my mother tongue German) - provided that your English 
is sufficiently good (but you can always let a native speaker correct it). As 
we already have translation tables for our lace related technical terms 
everybody should be able to read them. Google translations work best with 
English as source language. And it wont be long that everybody will have at 
least a basic knowledge of English. Those that don’t speak English at all 
should start learning NOW - they miss so much without it!
I also started to learn Spanish a few months ago (though I’m already 52 - but 
it’s never too late). A whole new world opens up with a new language (I often 
end up on very interesting web pages, forums and blogs that I would never have 
found without some basic knowledge of Spanish to put into the search enginges). 
But I don’t see Spanish evolving into a world language, even though there are 
more native speakers of Spanish than English (only topped by Chinese). English 
apparently has won that race already. We even mostly speak English at my work 
place now, since there’s not only Germans but people from all over Europe and 
the rest of the world working with us (including Russia and the Ukraine). It 
really helps if there’s a „lowest common denominator“ - I really love how easy 
it’s become to get around in Europe with nearly all younger people speaking 
English wherever you happen to travel. With one exception: England itself with 
all of its strong dialects which I!
  often find very difficult to understand.

Oops, sorry for the wall of text - I studied linguistics a long time ago and 
it’s still one of my hobby horses.

So to answer your question at long last: better make the whole website 
available in English. You might still use Dutch for a personal blog, as it’s 
always easier to get your thoughts over in your native tongue (and Dutch is 
such a likable language!). Germans are usually able to read Dutch, even without 
learning and being able to understand spoken Dutch, especially if they also 
know English and the northern dialects of German.

Best from damp and rather hot Berlin, Achim.

> Now I have a question. I am changing my website www.kloskant.com
>  to be suitable also for tablets and smartphones. In
> my old website almost every page was translated in English. This is a lot of
> work and I wonder if I should do that again, because it has become easier to
> have it translated by google than it was when I started the website.
> So my question is: should I translate every page in English or are there pages
> you are not interested in, such as the information about the lessons, the lace
> groups and the calendar.

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Re: [lace] Translations of books and websites

[Clay Blackwell]

Hello Gom!

Thank you for your wonderful website!  I find it very easy to translate your 
writing.  Sometimes the words the translator uses are strange, but the message 
is understandable anyway.  So, I would say that your extra effort to translate 
is not necessary, but would be appreciated by people who are not proficient at 
using the computer.

Clay

Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA, USA

Sent from my iPad

> On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:17 AM, Gon Homburg  wrote:
> 
> 
> So my question is: should I translate every page in English or are there pages
> you are not interested in, such as the information about the lessons, the lace
> groups and the calendar.
> 
> 
> Gon Homburg from a sunny Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> 
> -

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